Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 189 - Rick Reeves

Episode Date: April 20, 2026

Rick Reeves - Lead Pastor and an elder of Gospel Community Church in Eugene, Oregon. Rick planted the church in 2015–2016 with a strong conviction to bring a gospel-centered congregation to the area. A passionate preacher who has served as the primary teaching pastor for about 10 years, Reeves emphasizes that Jesus is the true hero of the gospel story. In this episode, Rick Reeves joins us for a raw conversation on faith, fatherhood, and the "Proving Ground" of manhood. We strip away the misconceptions of Christianity to discuss the messy reality of the daily wrestle with sin and the relentless drive for approval. From his childhood reputation as a "Holy Terror" to navigating a complex relationship with his "no-bullsh*t" father, Rick shares how a broken past became a mission field. Follow Gospel Community Church:  https://www.instagram.com/gcc_eugene/  Listen on: Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3XCm31n Apple Podcast: https://apple.co/3Dm6ClE Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – The Misconception of the Message of Christianity  00:14:51 – Where Rick Reeve’s Faith Started 00:17:14 – Daily Wrestles with Sin 00:22:38 – Rick’s Upbringing, Fighting, & his Relationship with his Dad 00:29:25 – Proving Ground: Men’s Struggle with Constant Approval 00:34:31 – The Desire to Win 00:39:34 – Having a Missions Field Through Christ 00:49:13 – Hard Childhoods, Broken but Battling a Life in Turning to Christ 00:56:43 – Cam’s Past and Why He Struggles with Imposter Syndrome   01:06:56 – The Path to Becoming a Better Pastor 01:20:54 – Rick’s Favorite Preachers 01:22:59 – Criticism: Communication & Expectations of Rick 01:28:35 – Mindfulness in Discipline  01:29:42 – Rick’s Favorite Scriptures: Parables  01:33:03 – Hope in Growth of the New Church 01:37:28 – Holy Terror Nickname, Sensitivity as a Kid, and Rick’s Dad 01:44:33 – Being Raised in a Christian Home & a No Bullsh*t Dad 01:50:05 – Father and Son Moments are Fleeting & Gaining Approval 01:56:36 – Painted Goats and Mistakes in Hunting 01:59:27 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Good Ranchers: https://www.goodranchers.com/ use code CAMERON for $25 off your first order MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move is so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is a key Pammering Collective.

I'm with Rick Reeves. He is the pastor of my church. Well, it's not really my church. It's a church. I go sometimes. I should go more often. But gospel community church and Rick Reeves. You at least got the name right, so that's a good start.

Well, I had to look at the hat. So I'd say props there for you. No, yeah, we're branding. Yeah. So yeah, what's up? Yeah. Well, first, I'm excited to be here. So thanks for having me.

But yeah, this kind of started off because I said, hey, we're planting a church down in Roseburg. And you've given me a hard time for that. So we can share those comments or not about how you're, whole faith is going to fall apart and all of that. Yeah. Because we're going to go plant another church. But yeah, we planted a gospel community church in Eugene about 10 years ago. Now we're going to go plant a church Santa Roseburg, which is where I grew up.

And so we started a conversation. And you said, we should get you on the podcast. Yeah. So, yeah. Well, you have a, so I'll give the Cliff Notes version, small town fuck up like a, like me. So we have that, I mean, we've got a bond there, which that, I like people. with flaws. Yeah.

Just to be honest. You like crazy. I like crazy. I like flaws. If you've had a perfect life, get away from me. Okay? Because I can't learn shit from you. But so I've always really liked.

And also I like, for whatever, I'm a toxic trait guy. But I like strong masculine type. I guess. But like even as a pastor, it's like I want to, I want to be able to look at somebody and be like, okay, I respect them. I'm going to listen to what they say. And if somebody's up there talking about, you know, you know, making a carrot cake or they went to Orange Theory and they're a guy.

I'm like, I'm out, dude. I can't, I can't do. So that's a flaw of mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, so I liked your Sorted Pass story. Then you fought MMA. You were the holy terror. That's right.

Yeah. You had a nickname. Holy soft now. Yeah. But yeah. So I just love, I mean, it's just a cool trajectory. cool arc, as long as we don't go back down to where you started. Yeah.

Because you're going back to your homeland. I am, which is in some ways terrifying. So I was back there for the first time this last week. And the start of my sermon was, this is wild to be here. I said, the gospel is not for little engines that could. It's for the train wrecks who can't. And the man standing up here is a living testament of that, which is true. That's not an original quote to me either, by the way.

And then I looked out, I said, Cody. I saw a guy there. I was like, Cody, I haven't seen you since we were arrested together 20 years ago at the fair. Yeah. There's not a worse place to be arrested than the fair. But yeah, that was the start of it. I don't know if Cody will be back. But yeah, that was the start of our first soft launch down there this last Sunday.

So yeah. Yeah. So. Well, it's exciting. And also I want to support it. So what we talked about is a church plant takes money. you know people whatever you can talk about it not talk about it but it's just a fax you got to rent a facility you got to pay for the music people you got to you know all the stuff chairs

whatever but uh so i said okay let's do a podcast let's talk about your because i like your story your story is cool to me it's just or it's uh and it's real and it's like powerful but um so i said let's uh let's do a podcast and i'm going to give away a bow and uh how i do that is like i do that is like i do it like one day if you order something off the website you can get this up pick somebody who orders and they get a brand new top of line hoi bow so i said we'll just do that then we'll just use the money from that give to you for your church plant and everybody wins well it looks sketchy if i put in for the raffle and then i win no i mean hey you got to work out that with god i guess as long as he's cool with it what doesn't matter what i care or thank or say

Oh, yeah. So going back, a big draw for you since we're here right in front of each other now. Yeah. And we won't rehash everything from breakfast yesterday. Okay. But a big draw for you to gospel community church was what you would say is the transparency or the authenticity or something like that. Yes. Is that what drew you in?

Yeah. I mean, I like, like I said, I like people. I mean, our dating relationships started at the pancake house. Right, yeah. Like years ago, you mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you came up. And then you had your wife come and fill out the church first.

What I said was, you know, you talked to me about your church and I don't know if you wanted me to go or invited me or something like that, but I'm like, that's my wife's thing. I'll get her on it. So then you kind of grilled me yesterday about why is it your wife? Why is it your wife's thing? And I'm like, because I'm too flawed. I mean, I say, I can, I can pretend with the best of them, right? I'm, I can be fake as shit.

But as I told you yesterday is I'm the one who has to look myself in the mirror. And no matter, you said, well, you're here at church every Sunday. Not every Sunday, but I try to go when I'm in town, I always go. And I'm there. I, you know, read the, to read some script. I don't read enough, but read some scriptures, go to church, do my thing. so it seems like on the surface that doing pretty good. And then I look myself in the mirror.

And then I have to be like, you are fake. You are, because I know when I get mad at somebody driving and I'm like, want them to crash or I want to make them crash or, you know, you see a cute girl, you notice a cute girl and you're like, what is wrong with me? So I'm the person who has to look myself in the mirror. So it's like, I'm always torn between how I should be and how I am. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. Yeah. So there's a lot there. Yeah. So since you invited a pastor on your podcast and you're a pastor, which means I get to talk about Jesus and the gospel a lot. And so I'll reiterate what I said yesterday.

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or an energy drink. And that's just how I've always operated. But since Mountain Ops sent me their new big sticks, I found myself reaching for something between meals a lot more. I started throwing a couple in my truck to have after a long run at Piscay or Spencers. And I'll be honest, they actually taste pretty good, which isn't something I usually say about meat sticks. They're made with whole muscle beef and pork. So the texture and flavor feel like real food, not something overly processed. Each stick has 20 grams of protein and it's a big one at 2.2 ounces. So when you've been putting in miles, climbing and grinding all day, it actually gives you something back. It's not just a quick bite. It's real fuel that holds you over and helps you recover.

I still eat the same way I always have and nothing is replacing that. But when I need something quick that still lines up with how I live and train, this is what I reach for. Mountain Ops, big stick. Get 20% off today using code cam at mountainops.com. I'll say this. I think there's a massive misconception of what the message of Christianity is. Massive.

And I know it sounds dramatic to say massive, but I think it's true. I think oftentimes you'll ask people, hey, how's your faith or how's your walk or something like that? And people commonly respond with, man, I'm trying hard. I'm doing this. I'm doing this. And the message of Christianity isn't, I'm trying hard. It's I'm trusting. I'm believing.

I'm resting in the sufficiency of what Christ has done. And so the world says, well, Nike says, you can do it. Christianity starts with something completely opposite. It says, you can't do it. you can't live a good enough life. All have fallen short. All have missed the mark. And so to me, that's a freeing starting point because just, like, that's honest.

And then you read the Bible and you see people that are just absolute screw-ups. Like, I'm drawn in the Bible because I read it and I'm like, man, God uses the David's. Like, look at David's story. And so you look at stories like that. And then you start to realize God really does save by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. And so it's really not about us measuring up. it's realizing right out of the gate that we don't submit a report card of B minuses. We just turn in our report card of F's.

And then we put our trust and faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. And he says, here's my report card of A plus, flawless, perfect, righteous, holy. And he transfers that to us. And so I think there's a massive misunderstanding, which is why I'm passionate about preaching the gospel. I have a hard time believing that. Like I can tell you trust in that, believe in that, believe that God's love is unwavering and doesn't falter. but I preach it so passionately because I have a hard time believing it. And we talked about this yesterday.

Like I believe help me with my own belief. Yeah. I preach the gospel passionately because I have a hard time actually believing it. I preach the gospel passionately because I find myself defining myself by my own failures, my own faults, my own sense. The same things you just said are all the things that I struggle with. And if any honest pastor in the world out there is being honest, the man in the pulpit is not saying I need less of God's grace.

They're in the pulpit saying, man, I'm the one who is up here declaring my massive need of God's grace. For me. This will be good. This will be good. Yeah. So sanctification, the way that people commonly define it is the process in which we grow into Christ's likeness.

Here's the thing. The majority of the times that it's used in the New Testament, it's talking about a past tense event because what the New Testament is commonly saying is that you have been sanctified. And that word actually means that you've been made holy and set apart. And so the problem is, and, And this goes back to the problem with Christianity, is people confuse and conflate two doctrines, justification and sanctification.

Justification says that you are legally declared righteous by your faith in Jesus Christ. So here's the simplest way to understand it and maybe a way to remember it. Justification is that you're justified. And it's just as if I'd never sinned. Okay. So what happens when we're justified by God

through our faith in Jesus Christ is our sins are removed. They were placed on him, God's wrath, punished Christ instead of us, and then the result is our sins are removed. But it doesn't stop there. It's just as if I'd never sin, but it's also just as if I'd always lived a holy and obedient life. Because now the life of Christ is transferred us, and that belongs to us. This is why this is huge. A couple years ago, I was meeting with the young guy, and maybe you can relate to this because I can. And he kept telling me about something that he did a couple months back.

And he's like, yeah, but you don't get it. I did this. you don't get at eye to this. I'm like, hey, I don't know what you're referring to, and I don't know what you did two months ago. But if your faith is in Jesus Christ, I do know this. Then you're not defined by what you did two months ago. You're defined by what Christ did for you 2,000 years ago on the cross.

And you got to stop defining yourself by your life, your actions, your failures, or even your so-called success, and start being defined by Christ obedience, his righteousness, his perfection, his success, because that belongs to you through faith. Like our faith in Christ, which our faith is a gift from God too, credits Christ's righteousness to our account.

So that's justification, just as if I'd never sin, but just as if I'd always been obedient. So what's crazy is God looks at Rick and sees a perfect obedient man, not because I am, but because Christ was in my place. And then now what I do is I recognize that that is true,

and then I start living a life consistent to who I am as a new creation in Christ. and I will grow in sanctification. Here's the problem. Many people, many people base their justification on their sanctification, instead of their sanctification on their justification, which is even more confusing, but it means this. My security isn't how much I'm growing.

My security isn't looking inside of me. My security is what Christ is done and finished for me on the cross. He said it is finished. Three days later, he rose from the grave. He proved that is true. And so I, as a man, no longer have to be able to be. to rest and trust in the life that I live in my own actions, which that's not a cop-out. But it's really freeing because I believe the thing that liberates men and actually what creates

fearless men is men who are loved and men who are loved by God infinitely that are sons of God that are secure in that. And they now realize, I don't need to prove myself to the rest of the world. Cam, I did that for years. I tried to do everything on the outside to fix everything that was broken on the inside. And that's, I think that's an exhausting route that men fall prey to. Yeah, a lot of them, most of them. I mean, you can't relate probably. I mean, yeah. Yeah, no, it's a, well, so when did, I mean, when did you know? When did, like, how did this faith start with you? And it's just like, when did you, when did you know? It's messy. It doesn't look like, it doesn't look like how I hear people tell their stories. Yeah.

Or like even my mama, my pap all. they would say, when were you saved? Right. Like you got to have in a journal somewhere. Like what was the date? Or your testimony. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And I'm like, man, I don't have a specific date. I was 23 years old. And it was a rough night. And I woke up and I said, God, I'm going to try you out. I don't know what that looks like, but please help me. That was my prayer, not the sinner's prayer. Not what you're. And then so I went and got plugged into a church.

and then came to realize that I am a man who has fallen short. I am a sinner in need of God's grace and put my trust and faith in Jesus Christ to be the one to pay for those and save me and whatnot and end up getting baptized, getting plugged into a church, but then my MMA career took me down to Reno. So all that happened in Roseburg, but yeah, I was 23, and it's pretty gray.

Like I don't have that. Yeah, just defining clear moment. Defining, and I wish I did because some people do and then it makes me go, man, what's wrong with me? at times it's made me question whether I am saved because I don't have that date like some people do because you want the all-powerful God to show you something. Yeah, and I wasn't bawling. It wasn't like this, there wasn't this heightened emotion and all this stuff.

Like I hear people say they just had to pull their car over the side of the road. They were crying so hard and everything like that. It wasn't like that. I didn't have that. And then, yeah, I think more and more, I went from being incredibly rebellious to incredibly religious overnight. And now I was like, all right, now I need to prove God.

He didn't make a mistake. And so then I got exhausted from doing that. I'm like, all right, I'm going to show God that I'm legit. And I started to believe the lie that what I can do is I can maintain God's love and earn God's love by my ongoing obedience instead of realizing the gospel. Through works. Yeah. Yeah.

The gospel saved me past, present future. It's saved me. It's saving me now. It's going to save me in the future. And so, yeah, that was liberating, freeing too. But, yeah, not until I was 23. and not a typical, I walk the aisle or something like that happened, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that decision was like many of the decisions I've made in life,

like after a crazy night, then you're like, I'm never drinking again. What was I thinking? And then the next weekend, guess what I'm doing? I've had lots of those too. And so this one was different. So like that at 23, though, did you, have you never had a back step since then? or has it been smooth sailing? Yeah, that's a good question.

In a lot of ways, I cut a lot of stuff out of my life immediately because I knew I didn't have any sort of willpower over those things. And so I quit drinking for years. Plus, I was fighting at that time and it's just not, you know, conducive with the diet and whatnot. But yeah, no, I would say that, and I tell this to our church family all the time, When we put our trust and faith in Jesus, we are a saint.

That means that we are set apart. We are made holy. And I would say I'm a saint who struggles with sin. I'm not a sinner trying to become a saint. And so maybe this will answer the question a little bit more. Is I would say I daily wrestle and struggle with sin. I daily, weekly, monthly wrestle with lust and the things that you just mentioned. I had an addictive personality on the other side of Christ.

I still have an addictive personality. I just sometimes change what I'm addicted to. I go through seasons of my life where I have to pull back on alcohol because I'm realizing that it's not a gift in this season of life. It's becoming my God. I'm not mastering it.

It's mastering me. And so if you're saying, is it buttoned up, polished, prim and pretty, I think you know, I think you know it's not. I think it's a grind. Well, that's a relief for me. I mean, for people like me.

Yeah. Because people from the outside in might say, oh, man, how nice. would that be? Just never have this weighing on you. Like never have the pressure of being a human, a flawed human weighing on you, but you do. Yeah. And we can't, we can't beat it on our own, I think is a whole point to this. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Man, I was sitting down to some of my favorite place in town, a little big burger. But I sit down a little big burger with one of my friends and former elders. You love fries, it looks like. Dude, I love fries. I love truffle fries.

thick kid that's that's how you win bench press competitions cam i know power baby i'm my Clydesdale though i'm not going to tell you what my mile pace was today six what do you five six McLeadsdale six that's hilarious yeah seven 45 not bad okay all right yeah I mean you're gonna gas out after round two and then just get the shit beat out of your round three I think I could I think I had another mile on me at that pace. That's probably about it. Yeah, no, but I was sitting down with my friend, former elder, Ronnie, and man, he's battled with pornography, like his entire life.

Just a radical testimony and story. And I sit down with him and still, as a Christian, this is a battle. I think that's the key word. And what people maybe miss and understand is the battle and the wrestle is a good thing. Like that's the sign of the spirit working inside of you When you are battling and resisting because there are things that I used to not battle and not resist I just gave way to them but I asked Ronnie I said hey if I gave you a pill right now And said if you swallow this pill you'll never struggle with pornography again or with lust would you swallow the pill and he said no

And I was like what and he said here's my fear he said if I swallow that pill then And right now my struggle with pornography and lust, he goes, though I hate it, keeps me buried on my knees and dependent upon Christ and the cross. And he goes, if that's removed, my bigger fear is that my pride would destroy me. And so I was like, whoa, I've never heard someone say that before. Like I assume I'm like, if I got a pill for you and it'll just fix everything, you would take it. But from his perspective, he's like, man, this thing is keeping me buried. Now, I'm not saying that Ronnie was saying or anyone saying that, yeah,

I just keep marching on after it, but he's saying, man, this thing keeps him humble and dependent upon the cross and upon Jesus. Yeah, that's a good perspective. Yeah. Yeah, I hadn't thought of that or heard that either. Yeah. Yeah, because there's plenty of stuff that I wish it would go away. I also don't think it's helpful for some guys.

I think they think that the way to overcome sin is by hating yourself and hating sin. But that's still all about, that's self-centered. It's still all about you and what you're doing. And I think what we need to point people to is stop looking at yourself and start looking at Christ. And so you're still just focused on hating yourself and wallowing in your sin and self-hatred and self-loathing and stuff like that. That's still not loving Christ and that's still not being satisfied in Christ's love for you. And so I want to redirect people from, hey, yeah, put your sin to death, but just hating it isn't going to do that. but actually is is actually feeding on how amazing Christ is what he's done what he's paid for

what he's purchased for you who you are how God sees you how he loves you yeah I think men who are the most secure fierce and and whatever they do I'll tie this into fighting okay I started fighting as a non-Christian and I was juiced out of my mind so backstory grew up in a sometimes when guys say they're like man I grew up in a really rough household you know my dad was meeting me i think i have a lot i have a hard time with that because i know what my household looks like and i know what my relationship with my my dad looked like so having a spanking might have been traumatizing for you yeah but having a bloody nose and black eyes is is much different right so so grow up in this grow up by just a rough nose tough dad i was telling yesterday my dad 6 5 300 pounds

I see my dad literally get more fights than anyone else, period. I mean, my dad made the paper in Roseburg. I've seen him knock out people's teeth with a mag flashlight before. So just a fierce, fierce guy. So grow up in this family and I'm tiny. Yeah.

Tiny, I'm skinny, I'm little. I felt like I hit puberty when I was 18. So late bloomer. Yeah. Just super insecure. And the way I deal with that is what everyone does is what's wrong on the inside. We think we're gonna fix it by doing something

on the outside. And so I take three trips down to Tijuana over the next three years, rested two out of those three, taken to see the judge once. Which by the way, they gave me all of my stuff back every time. That was nice. Yeah, it was really nice. He even told me the best way to get out of town.

I usually hear those stories. No. Yeah. Anytime we go to Mexico now, if we're on vacation, I'm so nervous. I'm like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, they can arrest you anytime. So, so yeah, I decided I'm going to get on roids

and fix all that I don't like about me. He was an angry kid, got into fighting. Stereids will help. Stereids will help, yeah. My first fight, the majority of my professional career was at 170, but my first amateur fight was at 205. Yeah, and they didn't test. So I was like, this, yeah.

I felt, I remember looking across, it was like this poor guy. Yeah. He's got like 21 years of just scars and anger and just wrath and bitterness built up, just coming at them. But my amateur career, I was doing that and taking steroids. And then I quit.

Not because of Jesus, I wasn't a Christian at this point or anything like that. I just decided, I didn't want people to say anything that Rick did. It was because of steroids. Yeah. Element was created by former research biochemist Rob Wolf and has enough sodium, potassium, and magnesium to move the needle and get you feeling and performing your best. plus it has zero sugar, artificial colors, or other dodgy ingredients to derail your low-carb lifestyle. That's why Element is my go-to electrolyte drink and trusted by many of the world's leading health

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I felt a tremendous amount of freedom when I understood that my identity was no longer in being a fighter and trying to prove myself, but my identity was given to me as a free gift by God. So my identity was that I'm a son of God who's infinitely loved. And nothing or no one could possibly change that or take away that.

You've been around our church long enough. I ask my kids almost every night, why does dad love you? And they say, because I'm your son or because I'm your daughter. So the essence of my love is connected to that relational reality. Every man needs to hear that because it's freeing. Because now for the first time,

I remember just like running out to the ring with excitement. I was like, for the first time, I don't feel the weight of whatever happens to me in there is going to define me to my core. And I don't know how to face people. I was like, I'm a son of God who gets to go in there, lay it all down, but it's not going to wreck me if I lose. I'll be able to face people and those types of things.

And so, yeah, it was the most, freeing and most powerful thing to me, which I tell my kids, I'm like, man, you want to see who's free and fierce in any sport or whatever, those that are loved. Yeah. And so, so yeah, that's what I'm passionate about. I think that, I mean, men are kind of judged on accomplishments and worth. And, like, that's how they're worth is like, what can you offer? What can you provide? What can you do? So it's like, we talk about this works. And it's like, it's not what you do. But we are, society tells us for a man. I mean, there's that meme that says the only thing that, It gets unconditional love as women and dogs.

Men hit the oil rig. Yeah. You know, get to work. Yeah. It's like, so it's really hard for a lot of people. Like you had that, that moment or that clarity or that change, but a lot of guys are still fighting with, I got to prove myself. Yeah.

Because everyone's judging me. It's like, you go to work and you're like, oh, what's your job? Oh, they pay, how much they pay there? You know, so now they're just like, oh, how much do I make? which my salary what kind of card do you draw you know it's like we're always and it we put ourselves in those positions and then we're then we're like dancing with the devil like trying to always outdo this guy or that guy or prove to this girl that you're better it's like it's tough yeah so is i mean it's more than tough it's exhausting and is the answer faith faith and just yeah you want me get you

this sounds like it's gonna be good man lay down no I'm just like yeah it's it's just a hard appreciate you saying that yeah yeah I think everything is is coming at men inside the world saying you need to prove yourself yeah you you you need to work hard and there's some aspects of that where I would say yeah because in in some ways I think men are running in the opposite direction even from their God created design on on some of those things What I would say, though, is that since you're a runner, I'll use this analogy. I'm a bow hunter. Okay.

So am I cam. This difference between you and me is that you have animals hanging on your wall. You got camo. I'm a bow hiker. I do have camo. Yeah. is if two guys line up on a race or line up to run a marathon, think about this.

If the one guy steps up there and says, hey, man, everything in my life is riding on this moment. Like, if I don't win this race, if I don't perform well, if I don't get first place, if I don't accomplish it, like I lose this, this, this and this, right? And then another guy steps up. and he's getting ready to race and he's kind of, I don't know,

bouncing around whatever you guys do before you get ready for a race. Yeah, just a jock strap, stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. And there's a pep in a step. If that second runner gets up and knows this, that at the end of the day, that his life isn't resting and trusting

in the race that he runs, but in someone else who ran a perfect race 2,000 years ago, and that what someone ultimately needs is not how they can prove themselves externally, but they need to be proven before God and only Christ can do that. I do believe that in the depths of who you are.

Like every man's soul needs that. Like I think men are trying to prove themselves and show something. And at the end of the day, there is this freedom and saying, hey, I don't have to prove myself. And again, I'm not defined by what I do or don't do. Christ proved me worthy through his life.

and I'm defined by his actions, not my own. Like Christ ran the perfect race and that race belongs to me. The ultimate thing that Cam needs that every man needs is they need the approval and love of God. Whether men want to admit that or not, it's like we're afraid to say that. But that's what men need. And so I think so much stuff that we're trying to do

is trying to appease the world or prove ourselves, but to who? Because I think the ultimate person we need to be proven to is God. And someone else takes care of that. His name is Jesus. and so I do think that's freeing and men need to hear that. I don't think it means that men just roll over and become lazy and apathetic, though. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. As you're saying that, because I'm the contrarian. Yeah, I'm always like, oh, it sounds like an excuse to be weak. That's what I just heard. But so what I would say to that is like, I love that. And it's like, you know, mentally and spiritually, it makes perfect sense. but if the guy who maybe he doesn't believe in anything, he's chasing his own ego,

but he worked his ass off. He put in the hard training. He's been sacrificing for years. And this guy goes to church every Sunday. He knows he doesn't have to do it for anybody, but he didn't train. He's going to get his ass kicked. I don't care who's in his corner.

So like, I can, I look, I know what you're saying. And I'm like, I'm thinking about, yeah, that's a spiritual world. But I'm talking about competition. baby so the best the best would be you're saved under unyielding faith and you worked your ass off yeah so let me give you this okay first grintyons 15 the apostle paul says this verse 10 he says uh by the grace of god i am what i am but his uh but his grace to me was not in vain in fact i worked harder than anyone else then he goes on to say but it wasn't i it was god's grace that did it in me. And so again, I would say, do all, Cam, you're sitting in front of someone who's

one of the most competitive people in the world. You can ask my wife that. And it caused fights when we were dating. And so our counselor told us to stop doing competitive things. I don't let my kids win. One of my daughters is just like me. She'll flip over a monopoly or checkers board and stuff like that. We're just, we're sore losers. And I'm a, and I'm a even, I'm more of a sore winner. So I do victory laps around my house. Like, it's not, it's not pleasant. But at the end of the day, the difference is still this. Work hard or whatever you do. And I was told this once by Brandon Slay.

He was a freestyle gold medalist wrestler. And I was struggling because some Christians from the Christian community were coming toward me while as a Christian saying, hey, you can't keep fighting. Like you can't punch someone in the face. Like you can't do all this, you know? And so I was getting rattled because I was like, you know? And so he was like, hey, Rick, whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. He's like, every double leg I take every single leg. He's like, I'm giving it 110% for the glory.

of God. But at the end of the day, Brandon Slade doesn't have to walk off the mat and feel like he's an utter failure in life unless the only thing that's giving him his identity is his wrestling ability. And if the only thing that's giving Cam, you know, his identity in life is a bow hunter, you know, you and you and I both know that's a horrible identity because bow hunting has the highest of highs and the lowest of lows. And year after you can drive home, empty handed and feeling like a complete failure and so it's it's not that you stop trying it's not that you give up it's not that you don't put in the effort it's just that your whole motivation changes your your fuel for the motivation changes uh if that makes sense yeah no it does it's uh yeah it's just yeah it's hard um just uh

i guess breaking that down in the competition aspect and regular life is super easy you always you know and there's that it's not even like in i don't think it's in the bible but maybe it's a 10 commandment but it's like treat others the way you like to be treated blah blah blah all that sounds great sounds great that's not competition yeah but so anyway that's where um because like to compete for me i want to hate everyone and crush everyone and like that doesn't seem very christian like yeah yeah define what you mean by that like when when you are competing against someone i just want to win You just want to win. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you think there's something intrinsically wrong or evil with the desire? Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Not with you, but with the desire to win. I think it's a validation of the hard work you put in. You want to prove to yourself and to others that, you know, everybody sees, we have social media. Everybody sees the shit everybody does every day.

It's just like, why are you doing that? You suck at running. So you want to, you want to be like, no, I'm doing a little. let's work and look, see what happened. Okay. So give me a like on there. And I think it's just, yeah, so I think it's that.

I think it's like you want to be acknowledged. And that's another thing. Men want to be acknowledged and respected. And so sometimes these works, these accomplishments give us that. Yeah. And it's hard to get that just like, because to get that in a regular,

like maybe a regular Christian, I don't even know what Christian life is, but a regular like whatever normal people do, which I have no idea, I always said I never wanted a regular life. But if you're just talking to a normal guy from down the street, whatever they talk about, I have no idea. I don't even want to be involved in this conversation.

But how do you earn respect? Like in that situation, I guess it's just being intelligent, putting things in perspective, maybe listening, offering advice, I guess, right? Yes. So you're saying for the average Joe that's walking just down the street. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because when I see the average Joe walking on the street, the first thing I'm thinking is not respect.

Yeah. So like that's where I, you know, like I said, I'm toxic, so I'm not trying to like say this is how people should be. This is a flaw. Yeah. Again, I don't think you're crazy and I don't think you're the only one that has those thoughts. And part of that, correct me if I'm wrong, is part of that is that you don't want to be average. No. Yeah.

That's a failure. Yeah, it's kind of like Achilles line in Troy. Yeah. He wants to be remembered. Like he's willing to go fight a battle because he wants his name remembered. I think that, like, I remember Roy had this. My friend, you know, most people know who died in 2015, but we were up on a bear hunt. I think the year before, maybe in 2012, hunting brown bear.

And I did this little video of him. And he said that hunting was his missions field. He said because hunting is a hard environment. It's a tough crowd, basically, and guys just aren't going to listen to you for no reason. You have to give them a reason. So he said God blessed him with his hunting talents to give him a reason for other men to listen to him. Like he'd go and speak at Montana Bowhunter's Association thing, do a seminar, or even in Alaska. I spoke in Alaska.

And I'm like, why are these guys listening to me? I'm being tough down lower 48 is not being tough in Alaska. Alaska is a whole other level. So, but through hunting, you can kind of like, even the toughest guys will be like, okay, he's killed some good bear, maybe some good bowls. We'll see what he has to say. But without that, so anyway, Roy would say that hunting gave him that credibility to where he could, you know, preach to people essentially, not preach, but like to share, share his journey.

And they would listen. And I would say yes and amen in the same way that when I would receive pushback. for being a fighter in that community, I said, do you think realistically that some average Joe off the street or someone who is in choir or something like that is going to be able to step into these men's life and be able to share the gospel with them? Like, do you think that they're gonna respect them?

And I would say, no, there's a level of respect because of the blood, sweat, and tears. And so in the same way for him, which is why I believe that Christians need to be deep within their mission field but not just that this is this where i'm going to agree with you and maybe this will be the only time cam so so so good i'm excited yeah yeah is that let's clip this yeah yeah make this the main thing uh is it it pisses me off when anyone in any field isn't striving to be the best that they can be in whatever they do so this is this is going to sound so

again so hear me out i literally have told people before that i'm trying to be the best preacher in the world which means i'm applying myself i'm reading i'm studying i'm praying for god to grow me and the gift of preaching do i think that i'll accomplish it probably not um but it's not from a lack of effort or trying to be that and i would say if you are a personal trainer uh that that you should strive to be the best possible trainer in the world and i would say if you're a bow hunter you should strive to be the best, whatever your job or profession is, I believe because we are Christian, that whatever we eat or drink or whatever we do, we're supposed to do it for the glory of God. And so I want to do whatever it is that I do to 100% to try to be the best at it while at the

same time knowing that even if I don't arrive at that, it's not going to cripple me. And I think that's the big thing that men do need to hear is that we should be striving like that. We should be living like that. We should be giving it or all. But I think the freedom is this is that even if I were to become the best preacher in the world and even if you and true it which I do I think you guys will accomplish it I think you guys become the fastest father and son in the world so you're at least your dreams are practical for you right so being the best preacher in the world's probably not so but even if I even if I accomplish that cam what what I'm saying is I don't believe it's going to satisfy what my what my soul ultimately needs and it's like

plug in it a bunch of different wires we have a bunch of wires we have a bunch of at our house and there's like USB, USB, and all this stuff that is hard for me to keep track of. So my wife puts all the cables in a drawer. But it's like trying to just wire in and put in a bunch of stuff that's- See if this works. Yes, see if this works.

But at the end of the day, I believe our souls were created to be wired back into our relationship with God to have his approval, to have his approval. And I believe that's what men are longing for. And so I think even the working hard and our own attempts at righteousness and all that stuff is I think, us trying to do what only Christ can do and that's get us back into the relationship that we need to

be in. Otherwise, I do think everything else in this world is going to leave us dissatisfied. I mean, look at the amount of men who have accomplished huge things. Tom Brady, I don't know if you ever saw that interview, but it was like after the fifth Super Bowl or something like that. He was like, yeah, there's something inside of me that's still. Yeah, missing. And I'm like, I'm like, hey, I know what that is. Yeah. Like you were created by God and you were created to be in a relationship for them and nothing it's like the wires nothing else is going to line up until you're back into this relationship that you were created to be in and the only way back is jesus says on the way the truth in life is through faith in jesus christ and that but because of that i believe that men can

enter into their careers or their hobbies without being crippled by them but again if your hobby or career is going to be the thing that defines you and you suck at it i would say i think that's a lot better fighter this is a humble brag yeah I think it was a lot better fighter than the opportunities I would give in. I was just a lot less of a tool by the time I became a Christian. I was still pretty toolish.

My wife can tell you that, but just less, I wish I would have applied for the, a tryout for the ultimate fighter before I was Christian because I think they would have loved me then. But, but man, there's parts of me that, like there's part of my fight career is like, maybe I don't talk about as much because I never accomplished what I wanted to in that

and I hate that. Like I wanted to fight for the UFC. Yeah. When I was 10, I wanted to play, Major League Baseball, my pap ball was like, hey, I don't see that working out for you at 10. He was like, what's your backup plan? I'm like, I'm 10.

Yeah, really. Yeah, that was an honest conversation. Did your shit on my dreams already? Yeah, 10, I had a course correct my entire life. You're supposed to say I could be president, it could be an astronaut. No, my pap ball's brutal. He's like, I don't see that working out for you.

Yeah. What's your backup plan? So, but yeah, all those things to say, it's like, yeah, the things that I was embarrassed by, and I've shared this from the pulpit before, but man, there's things about, my story there's things about my family there's things about all sorts of stuff just being a drop out and and not even that but being at alternative schools and then and then not making it at alternative

schools yeah yeah like all sorts of stuff having a bad credit score when i married my wife like all that's just so much stuff that i was embarrassed by but my attempt was i'm going to try everything i can on the outside to achieve get success fix whatever's wrong but i'm trying to do external stuff to fix and a problem that's broken on the inside and a problem that I believe that only can be fixed by Christ in the gospel. Some people wake up when they have to. Some people wake up because something in them refuses to stay still. Spring has a way of exposing that.

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And right now, podcast listeners, get 10% off any knife with code cam 10, CAM 10. To keep hammering pack out, built for the back country, built to work. Yeah. And it's like, that's what's hard or that's what's great about. your journey is you have all that negative you have all that weighing on you you have the all those flaws and the the brokenness and it's like sometimes i wonder is that necessary you say you want to be the best in the world is that necessary you know what i mean because i think it just adds everything it adds so much because most people are broken in some some way maybe not as bad at

maybe not, you know, getting the shit beat out of them by their dad. But when you say that, then their brokenness is like, okay, I'm okay, then. Yeah. You know, so if you don't have those stories, it's going to be hard to get buy in. That's what it's like. So, Cam, I used to hate my story, though, man. Yeah. Of course.

I mean, and there's still aspects of it. Like, like, there's my whole thought life, like you're saying, you know, the, the guy in the parking lot like when someone flips me off there's still a part of me that just wants to catch up to them and snap their finger there's still a part of me of like whatever drugs i didn't try my curiosity runs wild and i'm like i wonder what that one would have been like and if i'm missing out on something so like man there's still a lot of that stuff that's there that's alive and inside of me but but yeah i'm like there's still that aspect of like the brokenness though i'm perfect in god's eyes the reality is that I'm still imperfect on this side of eternity.

I'm going to remain that way until Christ returns. But yeah, I think, yeah, just to clarify, I hated my story. I was embarrassed of it and I ran from it. I think the thing that allowed me to come out from hiding was the freedom of knowing who I am as a child of God, knowing that I'm no longer defined by my story. In fact, man, I'm grateful for my story now, which might sound crazy to you and it might sound crazy to other people, but I'm glad there's a lot of brokenness. I give my, you know, friends a hard time that had really loving dads.

I'm like, yeah, I must have been really tough having to dad tell you that he's proud of you all the time, you know. But I'm grateful for those things because I think it helps me to relate to people and be able to empathize with people that are like, that are willing to be honest, that are battling their addictions and battling whatever they're going through. And again, I think everyone is whether they're willing to admit it or not. Yeah. No, I totally get that.

And, you know, I mean, my mom has apologized to me for my childhood and I said, I go, mom, I'm glad. I'm glad it was so shitty because that's who I am now. This made me who I am. I might be the biggest pussy in the world with like the dad, like, champ, we're so proud of you. You can do anything. That's okay. You don't go to practice.

Just let's watch TV. You know, so I would much rather have the broken family and the alcoholism and all that. Yeah. Any day of the week. You know, you're going back to Roseburg, your hometown, where you were screw up. It's like when I go out to my hometown, I still feel like I was the drunk crashing trucks, just smart ass all the time, wasn't beating people up, but getting beat, like, punched in the eye and shit at parties.

So it's embarrassing to go back to, because now we're different people, but hometowns never forget, dude. You can't be a star in your hometown. Yeah, I mean, it's, it's biblical as prophets not welcome in his own. Yeah. And in his hometown. I think that's part of the thing, though, Cam, too, is it's good for you to hear. And I think it's good for other men to hear.

I think that terrifies them about, you know, being sold out for Jesus or going all in, is that, man, there's going to be these expectations that your whole life is going to, like, turn around in a night. And if it's not, that everyone is going to be disappointed in you and is going to be frustrated with you. And it's just, that's not a reality. Right. it's a process, it's a grind. Sometimes it's two steps forward and five steps backward. And that's, I think, a picture of what it looks like

to wrestle with the Christian life. So I think you need to hear that. I think other men need to hear that is that it's almost like, man, if I'm following Christ, are all these people gonna think that this is how, overnight, I'm gonna sound this way, be changed this way, and all this stuff. And I'm telling you, I've been a Christian now for almost 20,

I mean, I'm still wrestling and I'm wrestling with those things that like I want to get out of my car Out of my truck Yeah, you're a little What is that little car? I want to get out of my Prius. Yeah, you're pre-is when when guys have their their pants below their ass Like sagging them and crossing a crosswalk so slow It is like it is everything inside of me just wants to jump out of the truck and just grab them by their pants Let them up and just get them going and so

I'm just saying there there has to be room and space within our church families for people to be broken and wrestling in this whole messy process because that's what it's going to be. I think it's a lot messier than what people realize. I think it's a lot messier than maybe than people want to admit. I believe the gospel is going to save you and take you right where you are. You don't have to clean yourself up and it's going to transform your life. But that process is messy and oftentimes slow. And the beautiful thing is God's not going to be more committed to a person 20 years from now when they look more like Jesus than he wasn't in the moment when he first saved them.

Like his love is never going to change. It's not going to grow. It's not going to. Yeah, I explain God's love like this, like a fire. On our days we're crushing it. It's not pouring gas on God's fire. On the days when we're dropping the ball, it's not pouring water and cooling it off. It burns hot all the time.

And it's because of his decision, his choice, his faith. His goodness and His grace and because of what his son has done. There's like we don't, I mean, so people need to know and hear that it's going to be bumpy. It's going to be messy. It's not going to be buttoned up. I think that's why you and some other people are like are drawn to our church family. Like that dude's crazy. He's squirrely, but he's crazy about Jesus.

There's a bunch of broken, messy people here and it's not buttoned up. It's not pretty. And I think that's, I think that's what it's going to practically look like. And then I think we're afraid that my mess is going to scare you away or it's going to scare other people away. And I've been terrified of that too, which is why I hid my story for so long. And I've used this example before I was watching eight mile.

And at the end of it, they do the wrap off. And they're like, Eminem goes first. I was like, it was just like an eye-opening moment for me. And I'm not saying go watch. You know, it's not this past saying go watch eight miles. It's just a great, great story of good morals. But I love this wrap off. But this is what.

what I love. He gets up there and says, that's right. I am white trash. My best friend is Cheddar Bob who shot himself in Lega. I did grow up in trailer park and all this stuff. But then he says, he says, go ahead and tell these people something that they don't know about me. He tosses the mic. Ken, that was a, that was like a light bulb moment for me where I was like, I felt like the enemy for so long had to use so much of what I was embarrassed and ashamed of to just be like, man, And if you tell people that, if you tell people that, and even in the pulpit, when I share sin and brokenness, I'm like, if you tell people that, you tell people that they're going to be right out the door, they're never coming back. But what I've realized, man, is that for the most part,

people aren't afraid of our messiness. Yeah. What they hate and what is it turn off is when we pretend that it's not there. Right. Like you're saying. And then I think people can sniff that out. Oh, definitely. And they're going, nah, I'm not buying it, man. Nice try. So yeah. Do you still, I mean, I know, because I just know me. so I can talk about my screwed up brain. I still don't share all my, everything. You know what I mean? I still kind of water it down a little bit.

Like I say I was a screw up, but I still don't. It's still too much. I'm like, no, you got, okay, you'd give me a little grace on something. Oh, yeah, you were young. But if you knew everything. Yeah.

So I still don't. I've never been told it. I've never been honest my whole life, like 100% on. honest. Well, you just were. Well, not really. I didn't say anything. Well, you just said that you were that honestly, you've never been honest. I feel like that's a pretty honest statement. So maybe that's the first time. We should mark that down. Camp's history. It's hard because you still want to protect yourself. Yeah. You know, because what happens is like people say, oh, no, you're fine. Here.

Here's a little rope. And you take a little rope and you're like, well, I can't hurt myself with this much rope. But if somebody gives you all the rope, like, oh, I'm going to hang myself now. Yeah. And so you still kind of like save a little bit of the worst details. I do anyway. But that's a side note. I think it's good though.

But yeah. So let me ask this question. Why? I don't know. I think it's just because, I mean, I feel like, I felt like a, you know, there's that whole stupid, what is it? God, what is it? What's that?

not the fraud thing um the fraud thing yeah well you feel like a fraud but you're uh oh like an imposter syndrome yeah yeah so there's that so it's like the imposter syndrome thing where i've always felt like if people really knew like how my brain worked yeah i would be they'd be like this guy's a mess and so i think there's still like that protecting a little or worried too much about like I'll give them a little just to where I'm relatable, but. So what you're saying is it's, is, it's real dark up there. Yeah. I'll tell you a little bit about the shades of it,

but I'm not going to let you see how dark it really is. Yeah. And then what would be the fear of the outcome that if you saw that, you would be like, my goodness, this guy is incredibly screwed up. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, because there's this whole thing where I get celebrated for like, oh, I've, you know, chase these goals and I had this full-time job. And it, you know, it didn't matter.

I did. but what I have to deal with is how hard I was on the kids because I was trying to do too much. I was too tired. I would pissed off all the time. I would take them to the movie, leave them in the movie, go on a run because I had to get my miles in,

come back for like a few minutes of the movie. And it's just like, and I share that stuff, but there's so many other things where I was just like so selfish to just be like, no, I'm going to be the best in the world what I do.

I don't give a fuck about anyone else. that doesn't feel good. Yeah. Because that included my family. Yeah. Let alone, it's, it's, it's, it's, it was easy for me to say, I didn't care about a guy who is competition. But how could I steal from my, steal me for my family? Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. To chase. So I haven't even in either, there's a million different examples that. Was that a. Was that a hypothetical that you took your kids to the movies and then left and went for run? Okay. I've never heard you.

share that or talk about that. So you share that because, why? Because that's something where you feel embarrassed about or you look at that and go, man, that was selfish? I can't even, the thing, it feels selfish that I couldn't even turn it off to enjoy a movie with my kids. Yeah.

I still had to do my thing, get my miles in. So took him to Regal, ran around Alton Baker and did all that, got my miles in. And it's just like, yeah, so I just feel guilty about putting,

my own goals above you know i and and it feels weird now because i get celebrated because tru is successful tanner tern does good tanners is a beast but i'm like and yeah it just doesn't feel like like i i did the best i could do yep and and so i feel like i feel fake yeah yeah uh man i'm i'm I'm piecing all this together as you talk. But so you feel fake because you're praised for all that you do and you're celebrated for that. And then even your kids have some pretty incredible success because of that.

But at the end of the day, you're recognizing, man, a lot of what I did was from my own selfish ambition. Yeah. Is that accurate? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

And I would just say I'm providing for my family. I'm showing my kids what hard work means does and can result in and they can do whatever. So I was like, I would twist it to be like, oh, this is what I should be doing. Yeah. But it was just me justifying it. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, do you recognize that or see it is a good thing that you even can say, man, I don't feel like that was right? Like, do you think that's a good thing for you to be able to recognize, hey, I think that was selfish and I don't feel good about that? Because I would say, I think it's a cop out when men say my job is to provide

and that means putting food on the table. I would say that's part of it. And that's part of what it is to be a father, but it's also being present too. And so like are you saying, I mean, I think it's a good thing to say and recognize, man, how can you admit on this podcast with, I don't know how many men watching?

How are you able to admit that knowing a bunch of people are listening to this, knowing that that is embarrassing? Because I'm like, man, yeah, so I think, I think that's a genuine question. Like, how are you able to do that? Because, again, or is what you're saying is, look, I can say that, but there's layers of it that are much deeper than that, and I won't take you there.

I think it's, I have no problem admitting that because I get judged all the time. I mean, I get so much hate. So it's just like, I'm going to get a little more hate. I don't even care. But what I struggle with is knowing that, talking about it, being honest, I don't know if I would do anything different. Yeah. I'm still that same psycho.

Yeah. And like I can say, yeah, that wasn't great. But if I was back in there, I can't tell you I'd do it any different. I'd be like, no, I still don't care about anything. Yeah. That's where I'm like, I'm just not even, I shouldn't even go to church is what it feels like. Because it's like, that's what it, I just know how I still am. And anyway.

Yeah. So, so you're communicating that. at the core there's still so much of the selfishness and so to it it would feel like I'm dis that I'm not genuine and that some people aren't genuine to be like oh yeah yeah I have have this whole life but but you're saying if I could run it back there's a good chance that I would do it all over again and and do it the same yeah and that doesn't feel right yeah yeah uh do you think you would I'm like like do you really think you're like all right I I get to hit rewind restart run it back what would i actually do that or what i sit there at the movie theaters at this point i'm

just curious uh what would i sit there and watch what whatever the movie is with my kids is it's hard to say i just don't think i would yeah i just i i because i've just like it's been 58 years now of just competition every day every day i have to win yeah and whether it's a screwed up thing in my head or if it's an actual race or if it's whatever i just can't turn it off yeah and then i'm not happy what happens if you get hit by a car i'm being serious i'm going to be so relieved just swear to god dude i swear to god i would love to get killed hit by a car because i'd be like finally relief finally i can you know there's a quote in one of these books where it says there's no rest for me in this life perhaps in the next yeah so i'm

I just can't. So it's like to me, getting hit, that'd be sick. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Well, I mean, you kind of took a lot of my ammunition away right there. Because I'm like, what happens if Cam gets hit by a car and he's in a wheelchair and he can no longer run at the pace? He's running. Then who is that Cam sitting there in the wheelchair?

And yeah, I think that's a genuine question. Like, who is that Cam Haynes that's sitting there that can't do anything? because i've i've told people before i'm like man our gospels like a quadriplegic gospel so much so that what i'm saying is that if if you are a quadriplegic you can't do anything like look at the criminal on the cross like like you can't do anything to save yourself to prove yourself to to show like like you might want to do something like you can't even pick up your bible like someone have to hold it in front of you and so uh man that's how amazing and scandalous the gospel is is that that the quadriplegic is never going to go on a mission trip.

They're never going to be able lift their Bible to them. And so, and in a very real way, the criminal on the cross is a picture of that. It's like, man, the guy couldn't do anything is like the most vile criminal other than look to Jesus and trust him. So I think it's a genuine question. Who is Cam Haynes if he's sitting in a wheelchair and can't run anymore? You say thrilled, happy, and stuff like that.

But I don't believe that. I think you're sitting there in the wheelchair. I think you're going to drive Tracy. No, I don't want to be in a wheelchair, dude. I want to be dead. I was like, I, no. Yeah, that's not my hypothetical. You can't just build off of it.

Freaking, let's get that car going a little quicker or something. Let's end this shit. So anyway, this isn't about me. But hey, I was going to ask you, what's the, what's the heart? So you say, I want to be the greatest pastor in the world. What does that look like? And what, like, what's the hardest part of that happening? Yeah. Man, what does that look like?

Yeah. You'll hear our shepherds, our pastors commonly say that our shepherds are going to smell like sheep. So in other words, I believe that a good pastor smells like sheep. He's not sitting in an ivory tower somewhere, but we're pastors that are, when people in the hospital, we're going to be in the hospital praying with them. And so I think the reality is, Cam, is that being a good pastor is incredibly not flashy. it's because no one ever talks, as they say, about the planes, the touch ground,

or the trains that make it to the station. They only talk about the derailments and the crashes. And so I think there's a lot of faithful good pastors out there, but I don't think it's flashy. I think it's pretty boring in that sense. And I think that's a good thing because, again, as you're, well, not saying you do know, but it wrecks it.

I think you've been in a church before where there's been a pastor that goes off and has a fair. I mean, that has a huge impact on a church and a church family. And so I would say what it looks like is Paul lays it out is fight the good fight of faith. I would say keep placing my trust and faith in Jesus every moment of every day. I'm ultimately not defined also by being a pastor first and foremost. I'm a son of God who gets to pastor or church. I'm not defined by being a preacher.

I mean, people give me feedback on sermon all the time, you know, whether I wanted or not. But if that ultimately defined me, then it would crush me. if they're like, yeah, you're not my style. But it ultimately doesn't define me. And so I think a big part of that is being faithful to do the really small things and do those well. And to fight the good fight of faith, keep being faithful. Don't, I would say, guard my life, guard the church's doctrine.

So don't chase a bunch of just weird doctrines. And as you probably do know that, there's a lot of weird beliefs and belief systems that people are running after and chasing and going down every rabbit hole there. And so I'd say that that's a big portion is protect the message of the gospel, keep preaching it, keep teaching it, keep it central, but keep planting churches. I mean, that's what this, this might not make sense than most people out there. I've been asked by people from Eugene, they're like, why would you ever want to move to

Roseburg? Like, that's, it's an awful place. And I said, you realize that people in Roseburg are saying, why would you ever want to be in Eugene? Yeah. That's an awful place. But I have a heart for a rural organ. I want to see, you know these towns for me not in the woods,

but I want to see churches in Drain, Oregon, and Elkton Organ. I want to see churches in Myrtle Creek. I want to see churches in Rice Hill and all these little small podunk towns that don't mean anything to anyone else. They mean something mean. So every time I'm driving through these towns,

I'm praying for churches to be planning. Healthy churches that preach and teach the gospel with real men that aren't afraid to be transparent, authentic and real. They aren't afraid of their brokenness that are preaching and teaching, and teaching God's word faithfully and preaching and teaching the gospel.

I feel like I want to see Southwest Oregon just saturated with healthy churches. And so I think that's part of it. And I believe that before we moved here, had that vision. I drew it out. It's like some weird type of vision. It was just like I told my wife, it was like, I wanna see healthy churches

in all these towns and I wanna see them saturated. And I wanna see the gospel transform men's life. I wanna see husbands get saved. And I wanna see families turned upside down. And I wanna see families turned upside down. And I want to see, man, I would have loved to have seen that for my dad. I would have loved that. But I want to see that.

I want to see because I believe the gospel has such saving, transforming power that because of that, then towns become transformed and communities grow in light of that. So I want to see that happen in Southwest Oregon, which, again, that sounds crazy to a lot of people because they're like, who cares about those towns? I get that. So it's like that just, that leads me to this question. You say to be the best pastor in the world. some pastors or leaders of churches, I would say, oh, that means a big facility on TV,

TV evangelist type thing, reaching millions, right? Because that seems like success, right? But then on, so is that the goal or, but to me, what I hear is you like the small town environment. Is that, is that, is that because you feel safer there? Because that's you. or you felt ignored as a young man and needed something like that. And you have flipped the table on this therapy session. I like it. All right. Keep going.

Keep going. Because I do, you know, in some respects, like I, and I told you, I think Eugene needs you just as much as Roseburg, maybe more,

probably, you know, we got a lot of fucking weird people here in Eugene that could use a masculine type, uh, child of God up there preaching everything. Sunday. But I'm not saying that the small towns don't need that because they do. And because one thing that I've noticed like with jelly roll and hanging around and going to some of these shows and like hearing,

seeing his response to people kind of like what you're talking about with Roseburg is like, you know, you said white trash or whatever. Maybe I have. I don't, I mean, but that's me essentially. And it's like those are the forgotten people. The poor white people never get talked about. You know, it's always like the urban stuff or the, let's, you know, people coming from other countries for asylum, something like that. The poor white people, good luck. Yeah. You know, and so. Yeah, is there a more hated group of people than a blue collar white male in today's society?

Yeah. I mean, it's just like, so I get, to me, that makes what you want to do even more powerful. And that's cool. And I like it, even though I don't like you leaving here. but it's so so tell me how does how do you get to become the best in the world so it's not congregation size it's not reaching millions what is it yeah it's a good question so i'll be honest here it's to say so you know this our church's mission statement is to make jesus the hero about six months in sometimes people think there's a lot of thought and creativity put into like the

name of the church and stuff like that, but I was filling out the forum from the secretary of state. My buddy was next to me, Brandon. And it's making you put in the name of your nonprofit. I was like, we don't have a name. And he's like, what do you, what do you care about? I was like, the gospel. He's like, what else? Community. He's like, all right. He's just say gospel community church. And he's like, we'll come up with something cooler later. And so that's still, that's still the name. Six months into the church, someone's like, hey, it seems like whenever you preach or we have a Bible study, it seems like the main goal is to make Jesus a hero of it.

And I was like, there you go. The problem is, Cam, and I think this is what you're saying that you can relate to, is that I still want to be the hero, and I want the glory, and I want the fame. So even our mission statement, man, is something that I battle with. Because in coming on this podcast, whatever it is, there's a huge part of me that I want to try to take the attention,

and I want to try to be the hero, and I want the glory. So that's something I wrestle with. And so there's a part of me that wants that, what you're described. Like, I would want to, you know, I want the success. I want the, the fame. Like you showed me that guy yesterday. Joe B.

Yeah. Is that his name? Yeah. Yeah. And like he must reach a lot of people. Yeah. I think his church is like 20,000 people or something like that. And I said you have that same because you are good, right?

And it's like I know we got to make Jesus. Well, and Marcus came up with this because it's like you're so good at preaching. We were like, yeah, it's not about you. It's blah, blah, blah. You have these guests pastors out there, whatever, preachers, whatever it is. And Marcus said, instead of just make Jesus as a hero, make Rick, make Jesus. make Jesus a hero. That should, so I get,

the problem is you're really good. And so, thanks, ma'am. Hearing that over and over, I don't care who you are, that's going to impact us as men. Yeah. It's going to affect our ego.

Yeah. So I get that. But the fact that you're conscious of it is a good step. But yeah, it's just like, it's just weird because we saw the guy yesterday with all the people and he's like a badass and he's just on fire up there for the God.

and I can see you doing that too, because you are so good. But yeah, I was just curious about- I gotta bulk up a little bit more though. Yeah, that guy's jacked. I might need to double a dose, so. Yeah, I know, yeah, yeah, yeah, going both cheeks. Like, make a trip back to Tijuana.

But yeah, so I was just curious about how success is defined for you to be the best. Yeah, that's a living reality, something I live with and that I ask people to pray for. I'm like, pray for me in this, because those are things where, man, I feel disingenuine at times because I'm like, this is the church's mission statement. And I'm up there at the same time, like, man, I'm wanting that.

But also there's a greater desire in me too, or there's this other desire. John the Baptist said that his mission was to decrease so that Christ would increase. In other words, he was okay being in the shadows so the Christ would be in the spotlight. That's in me too. And so both of those things, as the Apostle Paul says,

like both of these things are like waging war inside of him, you know? and yeah so that's a reality but ultimately i trust that the spirit is going to continue to refine and sanctify those desires so that my desire is ultimately for christ to be in the spotlight but that's that's a living reality but what does that look like practically it's i don't want to build an empire i want to i think what success looks like for me and i think we should define success whenever we're planting churches i think it's a healthy thing to do is I think what success looks like is, is your church actually living out its core values?

And so one of our core values is transparency. Do people feel safe within your church to actually confess their sins and bring forth their brokenness? And I would say, man, that's a sign of success. If someone knows they're hidden in Christ and they don't have to protect their image anymore, but that Christ has come in and restored them,

then man, there's a lot of freedom to say, man, I'm hidden in Christ. I don't have to hide anymore. And so there's freedom to be transparent. So I would say success looks like that. It looks like we're planting churches that keep planting churches, that keep multiplying churches. And that's why we're a part of a church planning network called Acts 29 that exists that that plant churches like that. But I think success looks like looking and saying, man, we got more and more pastors that are now

pastoring churches in this town and this town and this town. town and there's more and more men cam i would say because i would say our our culture is pretty gritty and i'm thankful for that i would say a bunch of crazies that are crazy about jesus and and and i was once told that uh that i take the gospel serious but not myself and i was i thought that was a great compliment and so that that'd be my hope is that in these small small ruled gritty lumber towns that there's places where those rough neck rough around the edges guys go yeah i want to get i want to get plugged in yeah i want to hear about jesus and what will premos their company the tagline was uh speak the language yeah i feel like i

speak the language i feel like i speak the language of small town it's a lot of christless conservativism in other words they have all the conservative values without jesus in them right so i feel like i understand that culture i speak that language is a lot of good old boyism and legalism of like hey man look i'm working hard i'm putting in the work i'm i'm putting in the work i'm I'm trying my best and therefore that proves me to be a good person, you know? Like that that's the common message. And so, man, I know how to speak to that. And so my heart is for those guys that are just rough and tough and gritty and think there's

no way I'm ever stepping foot inside of a church. My heart is for those guys. Yeah. So it makes me think of Powers, Oregon, where I go in Elkhunt out kind of over towards Cues Bay, just a tiny little. Yeah. And I'm like, I could have mad. I just think about a church there for all those guys.

I skill work in the woods you know they're tough you know driving truck or setting chokers or timber followers or in a mill somewhere those guys totally I let those because that was who I was going to be you know what I mean absolutely and so yeah I totally get that it's um when you're headed there you drive through Camas Valley yeah and even like those little towns like Camas Valley I'm like man but like yeah so did you know that there's a there's a Johnny Cash song about Roseberg oh no it's called Lumberjack oh really yeah it actually mentions a road it's talking about Rosberg, but actually mentions Eugene in the song too. So yeah. Okay. Yeah, but he's talking about just the burly, just, yeah, just rough around the edges type guys. And I'm like, man, who's reaching,

who's reaching those guys? Yeah. Because it goes back to, uh, to your best friend and, and, and his ministry with, you know, reaching bow hunters and stuff like that. It's like, who's reaching those guys? Right. Because again, those guys are rough and tumble and, and, they're lumberjacks. They're not going to listen to anybody. No. If you wear skinny jeans and you got whatever. I was literally getting ready to say that.

I was like, yeah, your vegan diet and skinny jeans. It's going to be real tough, man. You got a lot working against you. And so, yeah, my heart is for those guys to say, man, I get it. I get you. Like, you know, so, yeah. And this is a place where you can come in and you're going to meet other men like you. So, yeah.

Who's the best preacher you've? ever been around best preacher i've ever been and why are they the best that's a good question my favorite preacher by simply reading his sermons of all times is a man named charles spurgeon who's called the prince of preachers uh but but let's go more modern day i would say guys that i enjoy listening to are guys that i try not to listen to that's a problem because i don't want to mimic them yeah so man i I think Matt Chandler is one of the best Bible preachers right now and he's in our network. I think Jobby Martin, the gentleman I was showing you

is another one. My favorite preacher is Tim Keller. And yeah, in fact, he could explain the justification sanctification thing much better than I do. He has a YouTube video called Dead Orthodoxy and I'd recommend everyone to listen to it. It's phenomenal. I enjoyed listen to him because he's not charismatic.

and I'm drawn to that. He is, he's very heady, is very intellectual, but man, he knows how to get to Jesus in every passage and every verse of the Bible. He's just, yeah. So, I mean, he preaches the gospel clearly and faithfully and knows how to, yeah, knows how to preach Christ from every book

and page of the Bible. Yeah. And that's huge. Yeah. Because you can moralize the entire Bible, which I think Tracy said that's what she understood. So many of the Bible stories get moralized into where we become the hero

when in all reality, they're actually pointing to Christ the true and ultimate hero and stuff. So yeah, so he's a guy I think he was phenomenal at that. But yeah, I try not to listen to a lot because I don't want. Also, a lot of pastors are getting fired for plagiarism.

Oh, yeah. I could see like using chat GPT for sermons. I had a guy tell me he's like, yeah, I think that's fine. I was like, other than the Bible says, as that those who labor and preaching and teaching. You know, so. Yeah, it goes against it for sure.

Yeah. I was curious, we talked about this a little earlier, but what's the best criticism you've ever received? So people love giving an advice. Yeah. And I get advice all the time. I'm like, did I ask? I don't remember asking you.

I don't actually care what you think. So, but sometimes you get some good, good criticism. And you're like, maybe I can reflect and get better from that. So have you got good criticism before? I have, man. And plenty of it. So let me roll out some of it for you. Yeah.

I mean, I have a great and close and honest relationship with one of my best friends in the world who were planning at planning the church down there in Roseburg at his gym. Yeah, CrossFit Roseburg. And so he is lined out for me. I mean, I remember we were sitting in a Chinese restaurant, but I mean, he lined out for me where he sees so many of my character flaws. At the same time, I was like, man, that stings. Why was he doing this? But I don't know exactly.

I don't remember why he was doing it. I think he was frustrated or pissed about something. And it was probably warranted. but I also realize that it's those type of people that are willing to to say difficult things to me, which I know that sounds crazy because I've heard I've had people say something to me. My other buddy Adam, I'll share that one a second. But with Dave saying all that stuff to me, I was like, man, that guy loves me enough to be that uncomfortable to say difficult things to me knowing that it could risk the friendship.

And so I think sometimes people don't say stuff because they love themselves and love you loving them more than they actually love you to tell you something that would be really hard and difficult does that make sense yeah i've had a guy my another buddy adam to where i could hear his voice shaking and he's like hey man i feel like you're horrible at texting me back and calling me i've called you multiple times i'm putting a lot more effort into this friendship and stuff like that and i would say his statements were true my wife would tell you i mean she told me yesterday the day before she's like hey look at your text messages and she's like have you responded any she's like it's like look at all those there's no response and so i'm like yeah not great at that but

I remember listening to Adam tell me all that stuff. And I was like, hey, man, like I can hear your voice like shaking. That tells me that you love and care a lot about me and our friendship, that you're willing to share something that hard with me that I can see, man, you're clearly not chasing your own comfort because you are not comfortable in sharing that with me right now, you know? And so those are types of things. I am often criticized on my communication.

I am bad at communicating. A lot of stuff stays in my head that doesn't actually come out. And so and then I will have expectations of, I think people should, my dad used to say. They should have known. Yeah. You know you didn't say it. Yeah.

Like my daddy said, I can't look up your butt and read your mind. Yeah. And I think I want people to do that. So I'm criticized on that. Preaching. I mean, I've been criticized for, I think if you're faithfully preaching the gospel cam, I think people are gonna accuse you

of what's called being an antinomian saying that you're against God's law. I believe God's law is good. I believe it's holy. I believe it is a gift. It's just, it's not able to save us. Only God's saving grace can do that in the gospel. And so, but one of the things that whenever you're preaching that message and you're

preaching grace that you're going to be charged with is that, oh, this means you're an antinomian that you hate God's law, that you don't believe people should, you know, live a moral life or follow God's commandments or anything like that. I'm like, that's not consistent accurate to what I believe, but I believe we should preach grace heavy and hard. Also believe we should preach because of that, grow up hard too and live consistent to it. But yeah, I think those are examples.

So yeah, I hope this, I hope that if someone's willing to sit down with me and tell me how saki I am and they're willing to give me the bad news, I hope that they're willing to give me the good news too and which is something that I believe our church family Christian community should do if if I come to you and I'm like hey cam I think what you just did was screwed up and selfish and awful uh and if if I came to you or if I if I went to a brother in Christ and said something like that dude that was come on man that was so selfish I would also

want to remind him hey that's why Jesus went to the cross to pay for your selfishness and now because of that and because of your faith in Jesus God doesn't see a selfish man he actually looks at you and sees a perfectly self-list man because christ was every moment of every day christ was self-less and that life now actually belongs to you in christ and so i'd want to make sure that if i'm going to give someone bad news i'm also going to give them the good news if they're my brother in christ yeah yeah i know i get that um yeah and i think it's like it's different too when somebody's talking like we get mad and we yell or you you get drunk and you say crazy shit there's always a little bit of truth in it but when somebody's

calm and just saying, hey, can I talk to you about something? Way different. Oh, yeah. So if you have a buddy or like this criticism we're talking about, if it's said in anger, it's easy just to blow that off. They're just pissed. Even the person saying it says, oh, sorry about that. I went overboard. But when you can sit down just and just say, hey, can we talk? That's where it means something. But I was thinking too, like for you specifically, when you're saying all that, I was like, if like for and I don't know when the discipline part or when that but like for you because you are kind of like a bigger intimidating guy I think it's better for not for you to not do discipline type stuff not do the correction stuff because you already you know then it's like double or whatever

it's like intimidation plus criticism yeah you know what I mean yeah yeah it's almost like in we talk about these I have to be mindful that's me and my wife has told with that too she's like your voice uh your voice can intimidate people right uh and uh i mean i get worked up cam i get passionate uh there's there's many people we we've uh played this game within a church family of like trying to uh assign one word to people and so the word that's been used for me oftentimes is passion you know uh or or passionate and so yeah i have to be mindful that there's even times in grocery store where like i'll go up behind someone like hey you know yeah so so yeah i think yeah that's a mind

that it's keep going on sorry it's all good um i was curious too so what's uh this i have these random thossus oh man yeah just crazy but what is your favorite scripture right now yeah my favorite scripture right now i would say man i love colossians 3 3 that our life is is hidden in christ with god has been just massive not just now but just for the last 20 years growing more and more of understanding what it is to be hidden in Christ. But yeah, I'm also drawn to parables. Like I love Matthew 20. That parable pisses so many people off.

What is it? So that parable is about, I mean, that parable blows up merit. And it shows that you're saved by grace and not merit. And so it's this whole parable that Jesus tells. And again, you have to realize when he's telling stuff like this and when he's telling a story about the prodigal son, the Jewish leaders were pissed off because they're like, yeah, Tim Keller wrote a book called prodigal God and that story is actually,

it's great because what Jesus is doing is showing how prodigal or rogue God, because that's what the story is about is this father who's, you know, giving this lavish grace that wouldn't be, anyways, I'm going to go back to Matthew 20. Man, I'm like a retriever. If something's thrown out there, Kim, I'm going to chase it.

So I'll read it back again. I love it. That's why we're doing this. Matthew 20 is there's this laborer and he goes out and he finds someone to come and work his vineyard. And he does that first thing in the morning. And then he comes out a few hours later and he gets someone else. And he does that on until the evening until basically right at dark.

And then it's time to pay their wages. Well, he agreed to pay them a denarius, you know. And so he starts off by paying the person that he just hired right before dark who hardly worked at all. In fact, some people have really taken the time to break it down to show that like he might have not even done anything by the time that he got out there, right? but he still got paid. And then the person that came in,

you know, around noon got paid. And then what the people started to think, and this is where the frustration is, is they're like, okay, well, I'm getting ready to be paid. That guy didn't do anything. He got a denarius. That guy did more, he got a denarius. Since I came at the very start of the day,

I'm probably gonna get a lot more. Two, three. Yeah. And then he gives him a denarius. And he's using that story to show, you're not saved based upon your merit, based upon your work, based upon your effort. You're saved, based upon

on grace. And so even parables like that that Jesus tells are just brilliant and just show his infinite wisdom. And so I love parables like that. I told you yesterday, one of my favorite verses that's like a, even today, I was out on a walk and I was just reminded myself with that. I believe Lord help me with my unbelief. Yeah. Faith. Help me with the little faith I have. That was the one I needed. Yeah, I trust. Help me with my lack of trust. So that's a huge one for me in this season of life. We're planting. Planting is expensive. It's scary. I'm stepping into the town that I also hurt people in and cause problems in and stuff like that.

So, yeah, there's a lot where I'm like, all right, Lord, I believe, help help me with my unbelief. And so, yeah, I'm in that season where that prayer is a living prayer in reality for me. Yeah. That's good. What about for you? You got some verses tattooed on your body, don't you?

I always, I had another question for you. Okay. So tell me how this would go over. What if you go and set up this church down there in Roseburg and whatever you're you're plugging away and then new guy comes in your replacement up here and this one just blows up and it's like you can't like can't even fit all the people in there okay I didn't I didn't know if you meant like implodes or no no it goes crazy blows up in the right way yeah yeah uh how would I respond to that yeah yeah I would because let me

let me so yeah you said you got to preface this when you're talking to your buddy you got to say this is You know, I have flaws too. So when I left my job, there's a little part of me thinking like, I hope it just turns into a shit show. And then, because it kind of validates my work. Yeah. Like, oh, you see, I was doing good here. It was people didn't realize how good I was. Yeah.

That's my ego. Yep. I really didn't want them to fail, but you sort of do sometimes a little bit. Yeah. So this is me. Yeah. This is why I need to go to church. I think, man, though it's hypothetical, I think I would genuinely be excited.

Like I want this church family to thrive and grow and be healthy. You're saying exactly what you're supposed to say now. And I knew you would think that. But in all reality, if it doesn't, I think that also says something about my leadership too that's terrifying to me. And so that can also be a reality and that I created, you know, it was a cult personality more than it was anything else that was just there for me. And so I think the success of planting churches is when you're not there.

They're still, you know. I thought you were going to say something like this. Like one of our members asked, you know, hey, you're taking the name down there to Roseburg. What if you become weird and woke? That's what was asked? And I was like, well, what if that happens to you guys? You know, the same question could be asked here. you know and whatnot but yeah i i am man i'm hopeful that that the church grows and thrives and is

healthy and successful so yeah and i'm trying to like like plummet the depths of my heart to be like what i here's the thing i i know how i'm wired and and so here's my problem i'm wired to be a planter and start things. I don't think I'm good at all the fine-tuning that the older a church gets and the more nuanced things get and the more administrative they are. That is just not, I love creating, I love building, I love pulling people together. I love starting. I love that stuff. So Paul says in 1st Corinthians 3, he says, you know, that I planted in Apollo's watered. I don't think I'm a water. And I think the guy who comes in to lead for us needs to be really good at watering and doing that stuff.

And so, so yeah. So someone asked me, they're like, what are you going to do in Roseburg in 10 years? You know, he's going to go plant another church or something? So, yeah. That's what I was wondering too, because I am like that also, where I get the dopamine hit from the new challenge.

But then. Because I get bored easy. Yeah. Then once a new challenge, it's gone, then it's like, what? Yeah. Like you said administrative. It's like just the same on normal.

This feels like regular life again. Yeah. I don't want regular life. I want the excitement of this challenge and this, you know, you said you're scared about it. It's going to fail. Like, that is cool. But, like, I wonder if to be the best pastor, as you said, your goal was, if you need to develop that other part, too.

You know what I mean? So, yeah, you make the big splash, but then also, like, how do we continue to build this? Yeah. And that's the tricky question is there's a way in God, there's a way in which God created us and he gave us our strengths. Do we spend more time developing the areas of our weakness, or do we spend more time leaning into our strengths? Which is why some churches hire guys that are more of an executive pastor role

because they're really good at all the nuts and bolts and stuff like that. I'm not a nuts and bolts. China shop. I'm not a nuts and bolts kind of guy. I didn't get to the, I had some questions for you. I didn't get to him. What did you have? Well, here's, you were known as a holy terror.

What were you actually running from? That's good. That is good. I think I gave you quite a bit of what I was running from. My mom gave me that nickname, by the way. So that's why, yeah, that's why it's a good one. Yeah. It's a good one.

Yeah. What do you think people misunderstood about you back then? Man, what do I think people misunderstood about me? I here's here's a big one is that I was a pretty sensitive kid growing up like pretty just yeah like pretty like pretty sensitive and but acted tough like well no I think I think part of that is or when you're small where you were sensitive yeah yeah yeah yeah and and then and then yeah like like like just so much me is like raised by this ultimate man's man and I'm like dude I'm pretty be sensitive like yeah like like i just remember seeing like i hate bullies to this day but like when

people are picked on and stuff like that like i just remember like it would make me sad and stuff like that so i think part of it is that you know even the intimidating factor that that i have from how i look i think once people get to know me like there is like there is still a reality that i think like god created a guy who's still sensitive and yeah i don't know that that so much of me of what i was doing was trying to like respond to being who my dad wanted me to do and all that stuff and and to be clear insecure a little bit yeah yeah did the steroids to be the big strong guy so yeah I mean I was a chameleon too I think that's the hard thing is like I would be whoever I needed to be in whatever group I was in in order to survive including when I was around my dad I wanted to be who yeah I think just like like any

son it's like you're just longing for your father's approval and stuff like that so yeah yeah I don't know I don't even know if that's a good answer, but I guess that's what I would say is, yeah, is that there was a whole lot of mess going on. And, man, I want to be careful what I say, and I've grown in this more, especially over the last couple years, because there's a lot of good stuff that I learned from my dad. But I think the difficult thing was, is that what you're describing was a living reality for me and I would say especially from my mom and that's who my heart breaks more for is that we could put on the best facade we could go to church and and we could even go to church as as a family

and my dad commanded respect just just his presence alone but man we're full of crap I mean just if someone could have looked on what was going on inside of the walls of the home and and stuff like that it was just yeah so I think yeah when you say imposter syndrome I think for so long I had an imposter syndrome but I think also I think our I think my my mom has said that she's like I think our whole family was in survival mode yeah yeah I used to take pretty intense sleeping aids yeah last week in my dad's life it was pretty awesome got to spend some time with him and got to go in the room with them and asked my mom to leave and I said my dad was huge on eye contact and so I said hey

can I talk to you and he's like yeah go ahead and and then I started to lay stuff out for him like hey this is what it was like and he just looked away and he looked away the entire conversation and I said but I want you to know I forgive you and and I think you did the best you could and then I left the room I could see that there were tears in his eyes they never said anything but I left the room it's pretty crazy I've never taken sleeping medication like prescriptive sleeping medication since that day. So, but yeah, man, there was just a... Do you think so that that was a relief for you to be able to say that to him?

Yeah, absolutely. And that gave you peace? For so long, just so much bitterness and hostility and anger and... Probably afraid. And like when he's in a hospital, but he's vulnerable. So vulnerable. So you feel like you can, okay, finally, I can say how I feel. Yeah.

Is that kind of what it was? Oh, yeah. And I told my wife, I'm like, man, like, regardless of how much training you have and whatever you learn like i was still terrified of my dad you know there's just like man there's just a deep fear there but uh but yeah i felt like yeah the power of true truly of forgiveness and and uh yeah of what what i would say is basically just holding glass or holding barbed wire for so long hoping that it was going to somehow impact him or something like that but it was just destroying me and so yeah And so, but yeah, I would say people probably didn't know the depths of what was going on inside of the home, you know, because I think that would be misunderstanding. Yeah, for sure. Was it cancer? Would your dad? Yeah. Yeah. And you would have never. So my dad retired, probably the hardest working guy I've ever known. Retired after 44 years with the railroad. And then he got two jobs. He was working part time for a butcher, just straight out for meat. And then he was working as a janitor for one of his close friends to clean the offices at night.

So he was just a guy who couldn't sit still. Yeah. It's got some positive attributes. I mean, got some negative too. But like did after that talk, did it ever come up again? Or how long was he alive after that? No, I remember it never came up again. I got to take care of my dad the last week of his life, by quite literally, you know.

And you could just, I could see the humiliation in his face, which it does. It breaks my heart now because he's like, you know he would say he always called me my boy he'd say they didn't some crap my boy i got you sitting here giving me a sponge bath and stuff like that he's like this is what's waiting for you know and so it's just like you know it's like man but but yeah uh i think there was i think my dad i think my dad the one thing he said which it still sticks out to me he says i don't think i know who i am but i've always had this hard shell on the inside but i don't know if that's consistent who i am on the inside i was like oh my gosh like you just said what does that you just said what does

just how I felt for most of my childhood. But like all I've ever thought of you is like hard. Hard. You don't cry. You don't show emotion. My dad's three favorite words in his life were suck it up. I was bit by a copperhead when I was 10 years old and he took me home and told me to suck it up. And my mom made him take.

You'll have to ask him mom by the. My mom was like, take him to the hospital. Are you crazy? Yeah. Suck it up. Those were his words, man. And so, so yeah. But I think it was it was wild for me to hear him say that.

Like for, yeah, more or less like for the majority of my life, I don't think I've. been the man that I actually am on the inside. I just know how to have this shell and this and that's what he's done. So yeah. So. Well, when he died, what was that like? And people ask, like, if you had three wishes, what were they? I'd say that all my family friends and loved ones are saved,

but I'd be a billionaire. I'm a phone to be, you know, if we're on it for sure. Yeah, yeah. And I'd like to have another day with my dad because my dad got me into hunting. Like my dad taught me about work ethic, My dad taught me a lot. There's just a lot of conversations that I, that I wanna know more about my dad

and where my dad was at and stuff like that. So I try to answer questions for my dad because I was like, hey, if you were, you know, this is like when he's, I was like, if you die today, you stand before God in heaven, it's famous question, you know, or classic question of, and God says, why should I let you in? Dad, what are you gonna say?

And I'm listening if people are gonna answer in the first person and say I, or if you're gonna answer in second, the third person. And so I wanted to just force his question to be and just be like, dad, don't say anything, just point to Jesus and say he's, yeah, he's the only reason I can come in, you know? Yeah, yeah, like this is, this is what, this is what you'd want to do if this were to happen, you know, but my dad would profess to be a Christian.

And we would profess to have been, you know, raised in somewhat of a Christian home. But I think my mom and loosely speaking, yeah, there isn't a, there is a job. child who made it in our home outside of me past the age of 16 years old like they ran away or laughed it was just i'd say yeah it was tough yeah yeah so tougher than what it was portrayed to be and that's what's difficult so but but what do you mean tougher than it well yeah so so it didn't seem from the outside didn't seem as bad as it probably was i have again there's guys and people who have way hardelized me so i don't want to say i've had like the toughest life because there's aspects of my life that were good i mean my parents were married that's yeah like that's that's not a yeah my dad

wasn't around yeah so like like your dad was there totally and so there's aspects like that where i was like man and my dad worked hard it's not like we were broke or poor anything like my dad worked hard to do whatever you could to to get us nice stuff so it's not like those things were there it's just like yeah there was a yeah yeah just a this is what a sunday morning face looks like and then this is what was it like didn't i mean nervous to go home uh or for him to come home oh man cam and my mom would say the same thing is that that was just a common emotion whenever my dad was around we we would if if whenever my dad was uh this was our habit and maybe you did this too uh with your mom or something like that uh but whenever dad came home we grabbed rakes we grabbed whatever

we could and we started moving around the house and acting like we were doing but my mom would do it too And it's just like his presence is like no one's sitting down. And my wife noticed even like when I was growing up that when my dad was around, I would start grabbing stuff and doing something. So it's like ingrained in there to like don't sit around. Don't be lazy. Yeah. And all that.

So yeah. Just. Have you ever seen the movie Tree of Life? No. It's pretty good. But I always say that our house reminds me that house in the movie, which maybe, but Brad Pitts the dad. And he was really hard.

Yeah. And so like when he would go travel for. work. It was just playtime, jumping on the mom and the kids, jumping on the furniture, on the bed, just having the best time. And then dad gets home. It's like, oh, God. Yeah. So that's, that was like, I always say that's how it was for me. Like when I'd leave and then when I'd come home, it'd be like, oh, God, dad's home. So that's what I know. My mom, my mom will kill me for saying this. But, you know, I was baptized Catholic. Dad would have called himself. of Southern Baptist. I grew up in Texas before Roseburg. We moved there when I was about 13.

But man, it was funny because the Baptist pastor would come over to her house. My mom would run around. She'd be like, all right, all right, put the booze away. But it was like, going around the house and like taking all the alcohol and like shoving it into the cabinets. Because Catholics can drink. Yeah, yeah, and shoving in, hiding it and stuff like that because the pastor is over. And so so much of that was like, and yeah, I remember my mom would say like whenever they would even sit down with a pastor, or talk about whatever's going on in their marriage, that my dad was so intimidating that he would say,

you don't know me and I don't know you. And so he would set the course of how those meetings are going to go. So watch it. And so essentially, like, I think people were terrified of them, you know, so no one's going to say anything. Just ground rules. Yeah, he's setting the ground rules up front and this is how the meeting's going to go down.

And so, yeah, so there was this whole facade of like this is what it's, and I think that's why I had such a hard, time with for a while i had such hard time with christians and and and whatnot because i'm like yeah i just i i think it's there's a lot of BS and i'm like yeah and because we had behind that yeah so yeah no that i get that the facade i i was like you know when a when a man loses his dad or son loses his father whatever it is it's such uh i mean you you talking about that in the hospital because my dad died of cancer also yeah and it's just like it doesn't matter how old you are or how what you've went through or how it's like seeing your dad you know we always want to be strong we always want to be

we set the standard this is watch me this is the standard and when that goes away i just i'll just you know i was very thankful that I had those moments kind of like what you just described with your dad with my where he couldn't do anything you're just laying in bed and so we could just talk there was no other distraction but I'll just never forget you know he died I go over there he died at his house you know it's just hospice but then there you know the coroner's there and he's like oh man I'm just by myself can you help me get him out to the car and so you know carrying your dad in a body bag is like i'll never forget like we're just just like you like hey i need help moving that bench out to the truck just like that it's just so weird and it was just like i'm like

that's the last memory of my dad is just like here we go and get him in there and it's like i was grown i was you know 40 some years old but you know still now if i think about it or if i think about roy too it's like man we're not that fuck I'm not that tough because it can still impact me oh yeah you know and it's like

we go through these lives did you get to have some of those like hard conversations with your dad or not yeah yeah yeah when he was like no we did and you know that's what I say I'm thankful for because we didn't have those moments because I'm busy he's he was coaching

at South forever so he's always busy with the kids and you know so we just when he's healthy he's just like a lot of people you just, you're just doing your life. Yeah. You know, so you, there is a blessing, even though it was a terrible, long, painful death. There was some positive to it, you know,

with having that time to be able to go over things and, you know, apologize or do whatever. Just have a real talk. But, yeah, it's like when you talk, it just brought all that back when you were talking about your dad and you know it's you know and we talk about being leaders and being men and what that means and and how it can impact others it's like i don't know i don't know if we don't guys don't talk about it enough

but anyway i just wanted to just bring it out yeah it's because you're reminding me of it there is this reality is like for so much of my life all i wanted to do and that's i think a lot of boys are like that with her dad but like i just wanted to be like my dad yeah my dad literally took me hunting for the first time when I was five years old you know like that's awesome yeah it's it's it's amazing and uh yeah he would tell people i shot the deer and that's not the case i but but but i got the credit and the glory for and stuff like that and so yeah there is and i think for so long though that i was striving so hard to gain my father's approval but to no avail that i was just like man i'm exhausted you know and so and then i would say that's when like just more disappointment and

and all that came and I just think it finally took its soul. I think I just finally started to quit because I was like, well, I think the other side of this to just make him give up on anything in me is just to quit. When did he die? He died when my oldest daughter, she's 12. And so my wife was six years.

So he died 13 years ago. Yeah. How long are you going preaching? I've been preaching since I was. We planted here when I was 32, 10 years ago. and I started pastoring at the church down in Reno. I was a family pastor down there for a couple years, and so that's where I first started preaching.

And so my dad got to come and hear me preach. Oh, he did. That's what I was going to say. It's like, has he seen your progression? Because, I mean, I would just thinking of that before I asked, it's like he'd have to be proud of you. I think if you asked, if my dad was here today, he would tell you my best friend, Dave, my dad,

So Dave would tell me, he was like, hey, man, I had lunch with your dad today. I was like, I had lunch with my dad. And he's like, yeah, he's told me that he's just sorry and regretful for his actions and decisions and how he raised you and all that sort of stuff. And so, and then he said that at our wedding too. So he had the microphone.

I mean, most people couldn't understand him. Who said that your friend or your dad? No, no, my dad did. So he grabbed, so I've never heard him say these things, but my. buddy would tell me he had lunch with your dad and this is how he's feeling and i was like i was like oh but until our wedding uh he did it then he grabbed the microphone and uh and uh and yeah again my dad's so he's raised in arkansas my wife could not understand this i was always like interpreting

you know and so uh but most people couldn't understand a lot of what he said but at the end of what everything you did say and that's how i know i'm like man yeah he he was proud of me is that uh he said uh I'll tell you one thing for certain is that he said that boy right there is a finest boy in the United States of America. And that was like the only thing that people can understand. So someone, someone made me a shirt that says finest boy in the United States of America. That hell of a title. That title belongs to me, man. No one else.

I mean, you can go for. Yeah, put it on a belt. Yeah, second place out there for someone. But yeah. But yeah. So all that to say is like, so he, during that speech, he said like, I'm sorry for not being around. I'm sorry for how hard it was. I'm sorry for these types of things, which was hard for me in that setting because I was like, man, it was awkward.

you know and then stuff like that but I feel bad because someone asked me why I never went up to him and hugged him afterwards and I just think I don't think I was ready to hear it I don't think my heart was there so yeah I think it kind of like you went through a lot of pain for a lot of years and hugging him probably and you still felt some of that probably a lot of that man like yeah because like if that was me, I'd be like, keep apologizing. You know what I mean? Because we're so, we can be so vengeful. Yeah. You know, and so maybe it was that. Maybe you had been in pain so long that you weren't quite ready to let them off the hook. When I first went through pastoral candidacy and all that stuff and I was interviewed by other pastors, they were like, dude, you need counseling. And I was like,

counseling for weird. Yeah, weird people. I don't need counseling. I'm like, that's not for me. I'm like, That's not for me. You guys probably need counseling for saying that, you know? I definitely need counseling, but I definitely won't go. Yeah. Did you know in Roseburg, do you ever know that me and Ted Nugent went down and shot those goats up on the cliffs before? No, I think they're still looking for the suspects who did that.

No, but you know, did you ever see those goats up there? Yeah. Do you know that people would paint those at times? Like a paint ball gun? No, they were like for St. Patty's Day, like they would grab one of the goats and painting green and stuff like that. Yeah. Well, we painted them red. They're running an arrow through them. But no, they must have went over the hill and then whoever owned that property back there, like, because they're feral, you know, people don't want goats. They weren't doing anything other than, I don't know what they do. But so we had this, there's a guy that worked at the mill down there. I think his name was Jeff. I wish I could remember his last name. I got a picture of him. You might know him. But this is, he's probably way old. than you. But he worked at Roseburg, whatever that mill was.

And so Ted Nugent was playing at concert here. And me and Wayne were together. It was like, hey, so we asked him, hey, you want to go on a bo hunt before his concert with the damn Yankees? Is it over here at the whole center? It's like, hey, we can go kill these goats on Roseburg. He's like, yeah, let's do it.

So we went down there and just killed the shit out of a bunch of goats. Is that legal? I don't know. Yeah, that mountain's called Mountain Ebo. I think it's legal because they're not like, they're not deer elk. I'll explain to you. Have you ever heard of the organization called Tip, Turn in Poachers? Yeah. We're fundraising right now, man, for a church.

Well, this is 36 years ago. So I don't know what the statute's limitations are on shooting goats. Off wheel so quick, man. Hey, yeah, we start two churches. That's right. You guys know, you guys been wondering what happened, those goats? We hit a nest egg with our donations here. Yeah.

Gonna have all that cut out. No, leave it. I don't give a shit. I used to be so nervous about making a mistake hunting because you make one, like even just innocent mistake. Like when you're like if this is your job, it's over. Now, I don't even, I mean, I'm not going to ever poach anything. But I don't, I don't worry.

It's like, cancel me. I don't give a shit. My mom's been worried about stuff that I share. Yeah. Because we used to call in pizza to other people's houses. Then we would jack it from the pizza. guy yeah and then so i shared that and she's like hey i don't know what the statute of limitations on that sort of stuff but yeah so yeah anyway i think we're good on the goats i don't know about the

pizza thing i think that's longer uh you mean is robbing as far as prison time yeah robbing a pizza guy yeah of pizza i think that's like 30 years i mean you're just snagging the bag from them and running you know it's not that serious yeah yeah i mean good good good good Good shit. Kids have to survive. Yeah. Hey, this has been an awesome conversation. Dude, I'm so, I mean, I'm pumped that we're able to do this both thing,

help out the church, but mostly I just want you to succeed. I want you to be the best in the world. That's your goal. I want you to impact all these small communities that need Jesus and need to hear the good word. I want all this to happen. So I haven't, you know, finding a good church and a good, leader of the church is difficult. And we've been to a lot of churches around here. So when we went to yours, it was like, it was like, you know, Trace told me that time after the breakfast or whatever,

because I didn't really know you. She's like, oh, yeah, you'll like him. He's, you know, he's like, he's not vegan. Yeah, he's like, she's like, I think she just said, you'll like him. And I'm like, and she was right. So it's hard. So it sucks that. I hate that you're leaving. There's some great men at the church so and uh you know yeah i i love chat i love he's a good guy i love adam great guy yeah um dj there's all sorts of like just yeah cool people and you know cam goes there uh of course my son goes there you know my wife's sister it's it's uh i really look forward to it you never get to hear j and rene's story and i've never looked forward to church because at some point you got to hear that story so no i have i have to hear that story so no i have

Yeah. They planted the church with us, man. And it was like, and I'll share it. They've shared it publicly, but he was having a long, long term affair. And so, yeah, the fact that DJ is a Christian, the fact that DJ is a pastor, the fact that DJ loves theology and their whole marriage, man, is like a picture of redemption. It's incredible. So yeah. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, there's a lot of good examples of doing life the right way with Jesus. Jesus there at your church. So yeah, I'm very thankful. Thankful for your friendship. Thankful for this opportunity to sit down and talk.

And yeah, it means a lot. Thank you, Rick. Yeah, likewise. Appreciate you, brother. All right, guys. Keep hammering.