Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 191 - Tommie Runz

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Tommie Runz - endurance athlete, podcaster, entrepreneur, and motivational speaker known for his inspiring personal transformation story. A recovering alcoholic, he has been sober since January 2017. He adopted a vegan lifestyle and began running around 2018. He quickly progressed to become a competitive marathoner, achieving a personal best of 2:48 and qualifying for the Boston Marathon. He has completed the World Marathon Majors Six Star challenge in a single season and participated in ultra-endurance events like a solo Speed Project. Follow Tommie: https://www.instagram.com/tommie_runz/  Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes  Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/  Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com  Timestamps: 00:00:00 – “Tommie Gunz” to “Tommie Runz” & Alcoholism to Sobriety 00:08:39 – Working for a Vehicle Shipping Company 00:11:41 – Recognizing Alcoholism as a Problem 00:15:45 – Self Employment: Running Influencer Impact & Hosting 2 Podcasts 00:20:00 – The Growth & Diversity of Ultra Running 00:29:33 – Truett & Cam Hanes: Training to Be the Fastest Father Son Running Duo 00:31:27 – Training for Western States, Hills, and Hills 00:36:40 – Dan Green, Cocodona, and Who Inspires Tommie 00:41:51 – Building Momentum for People that Don’t Trail Run 00:53:18 – Tommie’s Running Coach & Training for Boston Marathon  00:54:45 – The Eugene Marathon, Cam’s Golden Tooth, and the Bentley Giveaway 01:04:04 – Tommie’s Marathon Goals & Having a Story 01:10:12 – The Building Blocks to Cam’s Success 01:15:45 – Speed Project Experience & Tommie’s Merch Goals 01:18:38 – Sobriety, Running, and Choosing to Suffer 01:25:20 – Dreaming to Big vs Not Dreaming Enough 01:28:07 – Final Thoughts Thank you to our sponsors: Good Ranchers: https://www.goodranchers.com/ use code CAMERON for $25 off your first order Montana Knife Company: https://www.montanaknifecompany.com/ Use code CAM for 10% off  LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel, gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. All right, this is a Keep Hammering Collective. I'm with Tommy Runs.

Dude, you're here in Eugene. Yeah. This is cool. I know you've been here before, but I didn't know that. So I'm pumped to sit down with you, and this is great. Thank you. I appreciate, man. Eugene's like a, I was going to say a second home, but it's like maybe like a fifth or six home, but I like it here. Well, you're welcome here. So Tommy Runs. Is that your like stage name or is that your real name?

Stage name for sure. Okay. Because it's like too perfect. It's too good. It's too good. It was Tommy Guns for like a year. Really? And then I started running and really liking it and figured out that Tommy Runs was available. So we made the switch. What was the guns? Like, lifting? Yeah, so I got sober in 2017 and just needed to find, you know, myself again. And so I lifted really like heavy and six, seven days a week was just lifting. And got to this point where I'm like looking good, feeling good, and then changed the name to Tommy Guns and was in the gym heavy. And then got offered a spot to run the Chicago rock and roll half marathon.

And then kind of fell in love with that process. and started running more and my cousins like yeah you're losing the guns bro your runs right now were you pretty jacked i think so yeah so like how much did you weigh i think i was i was only like 165 but that's a lot yeah but shred it yeah yeah yeah yeah and now i can show you a picture yeah yeah and uh so how's the so you switched to running and what year was that running uh 2018 okay so yes sobriety early 2017 and then running kind of came to the picture may-ish of 2018 and has exercise just in general been the key to sobriety do you think no i don't think it was the not for me at least i know a lot of people use that like different type of modalities to kind of keep sober or help them in that aspect but i mean AA in the rooms

of a really what is what led me on this journey and this path uh running just movement became a way that I used my time. And after getting closer into running and training for marathons and stuff like that, I feel like it is a very, it's kind of a physical version of sobriety in a way because it's, it literally is one run at a time and one blah, blah, blah, at a time. So it just kind of mirrors that sobriety aspect for me, but it's not like how I stay sober. it's just what I choose to do now that I have like that clarity or that time or that energy or that desire to do more yeah I know for me it's like when you work so hard at something like running if I have running goals when I think about drinking I that's just sabotaging my goals it's just like

why would I bust my ass to do this and then just kill myself with this other this thing poison I mean People do it, bro. Yeah, I know they do. It's like, but I'm like, I get so like tunnel vision. I want to be the best. I can be at this one thing. And so anything else that hurts that, I don't want anything to do with. Well, like, I think I had, you know, prior just to choosing sobriety or going down that road.

I mean, I, you know, wanted to be, you know, healthy and wanted to, like, go to the gym more and all that stuff. And you just never, you know, when you're in your, like, I guess, like, the thrills of alcoholism, you don't. I mean, when are you going to go? Yeah. You know, I was definitely, I'm not one of those, I was one of those like binge drinkers where they, you know, you only drink every two weeks, something like that and you just get drunk. My was the everyday thing.

So it was very time consuming, very energy consuming. And so when that finally, like, kind of broke, I'm like looking at myself in the mirror just like, I don't even like this person. You know, I don't like way I look. I don't like how I felt. So then I just started going, you know. And that's like, if I didn't make that decision, then I wouldn't be here.

So I was going to ask, how has your life changed since then? But your life would, you think it'd be over. Oh, yeah, for sure. Like, I mean, just not to be dramatic, but like the way that I felt, you know, it wasn't, like, the decisions I was making with my safety, you know, and even like my kid's safety. and the symptoms and the things that I was like failing every day that I was just kind of pushing through and deciding to continue. I don't even know if it was a decision.

I was just continuing down this road no matter what. And, you know, my dad passed of a stroke at 39 years old. He was a drinker. So like I had this model of like what essentially what not to do. Right. But I was just kind of like barreling down that road. like faster to see if I could beat them to that. Get there quicker.

But I know for sure that if I didn't make that hard decision, because it wasn't, it wasn't try it, see what happens. I mean, I tried a couple times to go like sober January or something like that or dry January. But it just didn't work. Like I couldn't make it two or three days for the most part. So when I finally made that decision to like walk into those rooms, it was a hard, firm decision.

and it just saved my life. I'm happy because it seems like you're just crushing it now and like you've really created this opportunity in this space and you're just making the most of it. And I was lucky enough to be on your panel over here at the Expo for the Gene Marathon. And it was packed and you do such a good job talking with people. And so it just makes me to see how successful

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C-A-M-10. to keep hammering pack out built for the backcountry built to work what did you do before you drink or when you're drinking what was your job um so yes i had the same job actually from 2007 until last year so early 2025 um i worked for a vehicle shipping company and i started working as just like the early the first job you get in and you walk in the door and by the end of it i was um one of the two vice presidents of the company. And I built all that and did all that while drinking. And that was probably the scariest, like, part of it looking back.

It's because, like, this whole concept of, like, functional alcoholic. Yeah. Like, I'm doing fine. I'm not, like, on the side of the street or whatever. And I haven't lost my house and all these things. And I haven't got any trouble with the law. So I was just figuring I was fine. you know and just kind of using all those excuses that i wasn't i wasn't the guy in the movies

you know yeah and um so i it was i was successful you know and in in almost any um like metrics of how you can find it but it just i was miserable right you know and inside yeah and and it was kind of i've always kind of carried that you know what if if people knew like what i yeah when i the last drink, what I'm drinking, how much, then all this could be gone. So like it was kind of like a way to never really trust myself, never get myself credit for like what was happening. But so prior to to drinking, it was decent, you know, and it just, I just didn't like who I was in those things. And then once I got sober, then it actually, then you start seeing that like the thing that you're, you know, good at and that you're getting paid for, maybe isn't your thing.

Maybe you have, maybe now that this new life that you have, maybe you want to do more with that. Maybe you want to start sharing real stories in a way that help people instead of just making money, you know? And so I think that was the change really for me, after sobriety was starting to like find my own voice in all of these things. and then deciding at one point, I'm like, this whole Tommy runs thing is cool

because I get to run and push myself. But then at the same time, I'm able to share my story, talk to other people about theirs, and do it hopefully in a way that inspires, like, one or two people to do, like, anything. Well, I know that will happen. You know, when you explain that functioning an alcoholic

and, you know, just getting by, and nobody really knows, there's so many people just like that, you know, that. And, you know, I would probably like that in some ways. And you can lie to everyone. You can, but when you look in the mirror, that's when it sucks. What advice would you have for people in the position you were in that might be struggling with the same thing?

What would you tell them? I mean, if you're in a position where you know, like, you for a long time i maybe didn't know like i tried to tell myself i was fine like everybody does this yeah and i think there's a certain amount of delusion that you believe a lot of it but then there's a point where you stop believing that and you know it's not okay and you feel the things you feel or whether it's physical or emotional and if you're at that point i just like implore people to to kind of not give up in the in the sense of like just quitting but giving up like the fight of trying to be normal in that sense

and trying to act like everything's okay. Because that's where all the lies you tell yourself to keep going is happening when you think you're fighting through this thing and trying to be normal. But if you say like, yo, I'm not, this is not okay. I have no control over this thing. And I have a problem.

That's like the first step, obviously. And for me, like that came from, you know, people always, you know, if you have people that love you, people check on you. There's ask how you're doing. And my mom asked me that question. And normally it's just like a quick text back like, yeah, I'm good, you know.

But for some reason, like that day in January, I was like not doing great. And she didn't ask a bunch of questions. She was just like, go check out employee assistance program. And so I hit them up and they asked me how many times I drank and stuff like that, told them the truth. That was like my second truth, I guess. And then I went to a therapist and told her the third. And she was like, you should go to A.

And so I think that's, for me, that story just is, is more about just realizing that I had nothing left to, like, lie about or, you know, and just giving up that fight of, like, resistance to, because we want to control it. We want to, we think we can. We try for decades. Yeah. But we think maybe we can change it. But if you can't and you know you can't, just let that go and start getting help, like, immediately. Yeah, that's good advice. I mean, and I mean, it feels like lately society is going more towards sober than it had, than I have remembered.

Like, less people are drinking, it feels like from what I see, more people are, because before you'd say, oh, I don't drink, then people would be like, you know, what's, what's wrong with this guy. Yeah. You know what I mean? You were the outcast if you didn't drink. Yeah. Now it's like kind of switching where it's kind of celebrated to be like, no, I don't need to pollute myself. Yeah.

You know, that's fine. So that's good to hear, but we're good to see, but it's great to hear your journey. And I know just you talking about it will help people and will, because people will listen to this and they know they're in the same situation, you know. And it is hard making that first step and going and talking to somebody and saying, hey, I think I need help. Yeah. That's really hard. But it's the way you fix it.

Yeah, I mean, it's scary for sure. But then I guess like if you're at the point where I was at, I mean, I was scared to, you know, die. You know, I didn't want to, you know, I didn't want to, you know, I got two kids. I didn't want to leave them, like kind of how I felt like I was not left, but, you know, the situation I had to grow up through. And I'm just looking at them like, you know, like if I have an opportunity to maybe. tried to do this a little differently than just, I'm going to go sober for a month. If I can do something real and different and tangible, then maybe I could stick around a little longer. And that was kind of what I needed to step through like that door.

Yeah, that's great. Now, this whole thing, it's just like, did you ever envision that this could be as successful as it is? No, no, I mean, because when I started running, I was just making content because I posted stuff on like Facebook and people would say good job and I was like that's all I needed yeah I'm like I feel good I'll keep going you know what I mean um because a lot of people knew that I drank so yeah and and so hearing something different you know what was was what I needed and I just made content for me and maybe a few people to say a good job for and then eventually this was kind of before like the running influencer like that's thing and um so I was just making stuff for fun and then it led to something more and then the pandemic then i started a podcast and

so i've always tried to um i've always been the type even through like drinking i was always looking for some like random opportunities to do more or something and um so i never thought i'd be here but it it it kind of makes sense when you when you look back and start connecting the yeah yeah for sure well it's uh i mean so you work for yourself yeah essentially and then you you're you you then brands hire you to do different projects and yep but you have you have your podcast um like what's your main things that you do so i have two podcasts i have the Tommy run show um and then which which you were on yeah and then i have the PR project with two of my friends uh we we we we pod every other week and we just talk about all the all things running and have fun and but then

also talk about more serious topics and we kind of lean more towards i don't know if i've listened to that was it called the PR project okay yeah yeah yeah So it started because we always were training to PR something. Yeah. And then it just kind of, it's evolved to something a little different. We've hosted live shows. This is how the Eugene thing came about was the PR project. Yeah.

And then for Tommy runs, I run, I train for races, a sign up for races with brands and stuff like that. And make content along the way and try my best to, you know, check the brand box, but then also carry the, I guess, whatever's true to me. and hopefully it like resonates with my community and others yeah well yeah i mean you're doing great work what's what of those things like what's the most rewarding part of it and so i think it's a couple things i mean it the one that this like just jumped up first was is when i share about my sobriety um and maybe a lesson learned or just sharing that i'm sober period or like talking about all this I just hit nine years in January.

And hearing people that don't know me, you know, or I don't know them, reach out to me and share a story, you know, maybe while they're struggling, or they're 30 days sober or five years or 10 years, and they're just saying thank you to me for telling my truth again. And that's huge because it's deeper than like a shoe sale or like an affiliate code or whatever.

And it's more about like it makes me feel valuable to, that makes all this worth it. I mean, because if you, like, I feel like I suffered for a bit, you know, and I wouldn't want to take it back, but I do want to make sure that it is worth something, you know. And if I can share the story and people reach out, that's all. Like, that's fine. If I make it real,

And the 10,000 people watch it and like one person reaches out, that one person means more than 10,000 views for me. Yeah, the impact. Yeah. And then so that same kind of sentiment carries into like, you know, to the black run community. And the more people that see me do my thing and run a marathon or run two in this short period of time or whatever or jump into ultras.

And people say that like they feel like they're invited more to a certain space because of us. Seeing you there. Yeah. See me there and seeing me share it the way I do. Yeah. Then both of those, you know, are make it feel all this is worth it. What how come do you, why do you think like, um, ultra has been slower to, to grow in,

like, you know, there's a lot of old white guys basically. I mean, that's who, like, why is ultra slower? Because I see the road, road running is very diverse. Yeah. Well, I think it's like. It's just a mountains? I mean, maybe. I mean, I guess like if you, I guess if you look at like population density.

Yeah, I mean, that's cities. It's not too many. Like, there's not mountains near Detroit. Right. You know, period. Yeah. I swear if it's that. I don't know.

I think it's, I think it's many things. I think it's that. But then I think it's also, you know, I didn't grow up seeing people run and, you know, I didn't see black folks like running for recreation or fun just around the neighborhood. And if you see that growing up often, then the chances of you picking up, you know, a pair of running shoes eventually. doing the same thing as an adult is higher. Yep.

And I didn't start running until after sobriety. So I was 33 or 34 or whatever when I started running. And I'm like, when I started it in 2018, 19, I didn't even see many of us at that point. You know, like when you signed up, my first race was the Detroit Free Press in Detroit. And you still kind of like look around and at that point, it's like there's not that many of us here then. And so like after 2020, 2021, then you start seeing more, more black folks, like, stepping into that space. You're just more people running in general because of the pandemic. And I think that trail will happen, you know, but it's just if a community in general is new to, like, a sport period,

they're not going to typically, like, go straight to the extreme, like, climb up, run up a mountain. It's just, it's real, it's incremental. And you're just seeing, you're just seeing. you're just seeing the growth of it. You're seeing people get faster. People have bigger goals and targets. Just as time goes in the community. Because there's many people.

I mean, just not to discount like all the black folks that have been putting up crazy numbers and miles for a long time. Yeah. And like Ted Corbett and the NYRR, he like, so long ago. But it's still just small and compared to like what the possibility is as a community. Yeah. And I think all things are better, like even on the road now that you look around and you see things are more diverse. And that means that brands and race organizations and whatever have you, like have to now or can, not even have to, can change how they communicate to all of us.

Right. Hopefully social media helps that too. I think so for sure. Because you can reach everyone. Yeah. Because I know, I mean, I ran the LA half. Have you run that? I ran LA for the first time.

full this last pass LA. Oh, you did? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just happened? Yeah. Okay, because I was there, I was there too. It was hot, right? Yeah, it was a little hot. It got a little spicy. I mean, I only, I wasn't out there as long as you, so was easier on me.

Yeah, I mean, I think I snuck, because it wasn't a bad day. Like, it started off as like 50-something degrees and then it got to like 90. Towards the end, yeah. But I think I snuck in when it before it got a hot too. So like I got the good. I got the good side of it.

I was going to say is like I noticed down there I hadn't done a race in L.A. ever. Very diverse. I mean, it's just like I thought it was cool. Yeah. I was like I'm not used to because Eugene is like. It's Eugene. It's not like L.A. Yeah.

So you go to a race here. It's just what it is. I go down there and I was like, this is awesome. Yeah. I love to see all, you know, so just all sorts of different people. 100% It was sick. Yeah.

I mean, because it kind of felt, I guess, if you had to think about it, it felt a lot like New York, like New York City Marathon. Yeah. New York City Marathon is,

I mean, New York is global diverse, though. I love the running through the five boroughs. Yeah. Vives. Like, yeah.

Each borough has their own feel. The Hasidic Jews are just like kind of, you know, just so quiet. Yeah. Not, then you go in reggae music, going crazy and I don't know,

I don't know, I can't know where Bronx maybe. Yeah. But it's just so, cool. I love seeing all those different communities. I mean, they, they could just make the course a little flatter and we could just still maybe. The bridge is kind of suck. If we could just get through all these boroughs somehow, just a little flatter. Yeah, yeah. The worst bridge is, is Queensboro Bridge. The one with the like the overpass or whatever. Yeah. It just gets,

it's only at mile 15, but it gets so dark and like lonely right there. Yeah. And it's like a little, it's a hill. Yeah, it's definitely a hill. To get up on those things. But I, that was where I got my fastest marathon before today. Oh, really? Yeah. New York? Yeah. That's crazy. That was in 20 years ago. What time? Wait, 20 years is. What time was that? It's 250, 21. And then you just ran 238?

239. Yeah. But like I said, I have never trained. I jogged like, well, we used to call it jogging. But I just call it jogging? Yeah, back in the day. Okay. What's it called? I'm old running. Okay. Or training. Nobody says jogging, do they? Yeah.

I don't think so. I think if somebody says I went for a jog, that's right. It's supposed to be a little funny. That's what we used to say. Okay. So, yeah, I've run my whole life. But, you know, like when we were talking on the panel,

starting when I was five, so I've been doing it for 53 years, never done it right. So with this, you know, as I said, True, it helped, but I've finally actually trained. And so this is a result. Well, I mean, I'm glad that you're starting to pick it up a little bit. You know, because like. Before it's too late.

Yeah, I feel like, I feel like, I mean, some would say like you might be a slow learner in these situations. Yeah, 50-something years has a long time to be like, you know, let me try to. I know. Maybe I could do this better. Yeah. But, yeah, so New York was my, yeah, 2006, that was my fastest. But I love the big ones. But, you know, like London today, true, it is like so many people.

Yeah. It makes it makes me really appreciate a raise like Eugene. You know, it's like the perfect size. I don't know, man. You like the big ones? Well, so I think that you like being like in the, in like the woods by yourself. Yeah. So if 10 people are outside cheering for you, you're like, wow, this is great.

That's true. Yeah, like I'm like my favorite race marathon is London because it's flatter than New York. Okay. But it also has like that same energy. Oh. So like I want, I want there to be like eight deep, like crowds raining. And I'm just going to bring. pretend that they're all there for me.

Yeah. That's the vibe I need. That did, it did help today because just because I've lived here my whole life, I heard a lot of keep hammering. Okay. It does help for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

But, uh, yeah. I don't know if that. I'm sure it's because people know you that you because you live here. But I also, I mean, you're, you're, you kind of well known a little bit. Hmm. Yeah. I, I don't know, but it was, it was a fun day. You didn't like that.

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head to sigsour.com. Grab a pair of Zulu Binoos and use code cam for 10% off. Sig Sauer Zulu binoculars. Seymour, miss less, keep hammering. I just love competing, I think. I think I just love to line up, which is weird. You'd think that I would have, if I love competing, and you think I'd want to be better at it,

and I hadn't until this year. Do you think, like, after the training block you did, and then after today's race, you'll kind of stay? I don't know. I'm not very smart. 50 years to learn this. But I was talking to Truit, kind of debriefing his race and my race. And I said, how fast do you think I could get?

Because we want to, I can't remember if I mentioned, but we want to set the world record for father-son, marathon. Okay. All right, LeBron James. Yeah, yeah. Because right now, it's, uh, is Tommy Hughes from Ireland, I think it's from the 80s maybe. I don't know. It's been around a while, but he was an Olympian in Ireland. His son was a good runner, but he ran like a 220-sum, a son like a 230-some. So the world record all-time father's son is 459. Same race. Has to be the same race? Probably. I'm not sure. I feel like that would. Yeah. That would make sense. So I think me and Truitt want to do it in London next year because that's where Guinness is. Guinness Book of World

Records. So we get the certificate right then if we do it. Okay. That'd be a vibe because you know they're doing like the two day thing. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Double the people. Right. Yeah. Double the people. That would be great for you. Yeah. God. It's going to be great for your performance. But yeah. So that's, we're kind of debriefing there. Seeing how close we were after today. And yeah, I think we can get it. Yeah. You guys are kind of close then today. Yeah, I mean, if he would have had a better run for sure. Yeah. Because tell him he's got to pick up the slack.

So if he's got to get 220 and then I got under 240, I got two, so we would have it. But he has to get 220. Okay. So he's got, he's got the harder work to do. Yeah, he's got the job got out for him. Okay. So you like the big stuff, the big races. Yeah.

But you also are doing Western States. Yes. That's not a big race. No. I mean, yeah. For ultras, it's kind of pumped. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, like, from what I've seen, the videos, the aid stations are going to kind of crazy.

Yeah, people love, because most people can't get in. Yeah. So when one of their buddies gets in, everyone goes. You know what I mean? Yeah. But are you pumped? Yeah, I'm excited. Yeah, I think the funny part about, like, my ultra, this ultra journey is like,

is very new to me. You know, like I've only been doing trail and ultra for, you know, my first ultra experience was last March 2025. And that was the Speed Project. Yeah, okay. So I'm from LA to Las Vegas. Yeah. And so like this is all fairly new.

But when I first started running, I was watching like Western States, you know, happen. I saw the documentary when Jim Wams. He turned the wrong way. And then the next year, I was like in my car like tracking, like the old school tracker where you just kept updating to see if he did it. And that's when he dropped out because he, it got like overheated or something yeah but like so my i was watching jim walmsley before

like i knew who ellie kubchokie was essentially oh okay it's kind of cool to to remember that moment and then now i'm doing like western states and and i'm aware of like the history i always have been like how hard it is to get in and how many years people you know wait and keep requalifying to be at this race so um the way that i got in was definitely different than than that process but just like when I ran like Havillian 100 last year, my goal is to use the opportunity because it's a crazy opportunity to get to run this race and use it to the best of my ability,

which I mean to me just trained as hard as I possibly can, be ready for it, and just go for my best period and make sure obviously I tell my story along with others along the way. Yeah. Yeah. So like it's, I'm excited about it. I feel,

I don't feel nervous about it yet but I know that I can put in a lot of work between now and when Western happens. Yeah. How much like hill work do you do? So in Michigan, it's not much, right? So like I find on normal runs I try to find as many like little hills like that.

But other than that, like if I have a hill workout, it's just straight to the treadmill with it, turn it up and just get to work. One thing that I learned, I ran Big Alt to 100K but that's like 12,000 or 12,500 feet of elevation gain. Yeah, that's actually a lot. Yeah, so.

For 60 miles. And I trained for that in the gym, pretty much, you know, sled pools and all the things. And I didn't feel like trashed after that. So I'm happy with that. But then one thing I learned a lot about that experience is that I'm like terrible at like walking and like hiking. Yeah. Because I'm so used to a marathon training and everything's running. Yeah.

There's not a point when you're walking. I mean, unless you're having a bad day. Yeah. So I'm not good at it. And so my goal, this training block, is to do all the things I did for Big Altta, plus, you know, four mile at 15% or 14% and just, like, walk. Hike it out. Yeah, yeah.

Those suck. I'd rather do, I'd rather do a marathon-specific workout than walk four miles. Yeah, and there is a lot of walking in Mountain Ultras for sure, because you try to run up the hill, you blow your legs out, Or the thing that gets people at Western, I remember this from when I, like a long time ago, 2010, I ran up. But it's going down in the canyons at the beginning, you blow your quads out and then you got nothing left.

But because you can just bomb down those hills. And I remember there was a guy, they let him in because he was supposed to be like in the top 10. So he got some whatever entry. And he was supposed to compete, flew over from his country, bombed down the past me flying down the downhills and then dropped could not run yeah i mean legs just would not work yeah after that and then you hear people like going backwards downhill to give their quads a break okay so they have to go backwards yeah towards like middle end

yeah yeah so yeah i mean that's why i asked about the hills yeah i'm i'm working on it and i mean i know that i'm at a disadvantage then like for some people that are that live near like stuff like this out here yeah but 12 000 feet if you If you did that, that's a lot. I ran the next day. Western only has 18, I think. Yeah, 18. And then the descent, I guess is, because it's like 18,000 feet and then like maybe 20 or 21,000.

Right. A little more descent. Yeah. So I'm just, I'm going to be in the gym doing my thing, trying to just make sure I'm as ready as possible. And I know like my head will be there though. Yeah. That's an important part of it too.

That'll be fun because again, all the stars are there. Yeah. You know, that's kind of the big reason why I was. wanted to do Coco Dunn again just because I just love seeing everyone yeah you know do you know dan green uh I don't know him but yeah yeah so I got to hang out with him at big altar yeah he I didn't know he was he was like we we met each other like at at breakfast at the hotel yeah we're gonna it's like oh I'm supposed to drive you over to the thing with us to the shakeout running all right cool so I'm like talking to him give him shit because he's he's like driving 10 and 2 in the car

he's like he's like I hate driving it and my girlfriend drive him And I didn't know for a whole day at all about the background. And then all of a sudden, I'm listening to him and Debo talk through an interview. Yeah. And Debo starts off. He's like, yeah, we got Dan Green here. You know, winner of Cocoa broke the record. I was like, oh, my God.

Like, I could have been asking him questions, bro. I'm like making fun of his driving skills. He's legit. I haven't met him, but he's commented a few times, I think, almost of. But I think I told him, you know, obviously is it incredible performance last year. But those guys went out because Courtney went out super fast. Harry went out, Dan, and some of them blew up. Yeah.

You know, it's just, but they were pushing, dude. God. Yeah, I saw the, he, he dropped, Dan dropped a video, like a little film about it. And, I mean, they did a really good job. I think it's just him and his, the bargain boys. Yeah. Just, like, covering the whole thing. And he just, like, talking about that moment he passed Courtney eventually.

Yeah. That's just such a wild. Cogadona, like 250 miles is in a race setting because I did TSP. So it was like I get the distance. Yeah. But that's a different thing from like that type of start line to that type of finish. Yeah. And it's really hard like if you have the opportunity to pass it up just because of we do all this because we want to see if we got what it takes.

Do we, are we made with the right shit? Yeah. To get this done or not. And how long did it take you to finish? 84. What is that in days? Three and a half. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, okay. I'm hoping I'm a little quicker. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's just hard. I mean, I was kind of banged up last year. Didn't know if I was going to be able to do it. Had to cancel Boston because I got hurt.

So I was like, well, I hadn't done a 208 years from me and court. and he did Moab 240 in 2017. And then I did Bigfoot in 2016. And I hadn't done a 200 until last year. And I'm like, I don't even know if I'm tough enough or good enough or maybe I'm too old now. And then I was hurt. And I'm just like, I went down there. I'm like, why am I doing this?

Yeah. You did it, though. Got it. So now I'm back. I think I made it through Eugene okay today. And so we should be all right. All right. Yeah, I think you're fine. Yeah, yeah, it should be good.

So what's your, like, you mentioned Dan Green. Like, who do you enjoy following in Ultra? Like, or runner, who's your favorite? Um, I guess I'd have to say, yeah, I don't know. You put me on the spot there. Yeah, I don't really know because, like, I think that for the most part, because I'm in, like, running, like, content world. I try my best to, like, not see as much as possible

because either like I like somebody's content enough or like maybe I'll accidentally like make her something just like they did. Right. Or it just becomes like too much to watch and say, oh, Sally. Sally? Yeah, like, yeah. I like watching. I actually told her message was like, yo, your content's actually like helping me because just the way that she presents it. Because I've known Sally for like three years.

But I was, I'm a marathon dude, so I wasn't worried about Sally's content at all. Like she's running these races that I have no idea about. And but now that I'm in this. thing like every time she posts like i'm seeing how much how valuable like the way that she's sharing the content yeah and the information that she has so i've been definitely tapping into sally stuff and i don't there's not a chance that i'd be a trail runner if i lived anywhere where there were snakes like this often yeah like i was running through the spencer's butte thing imagining like if i died out here because of a snake yeah this is that'd be a wild way to go yeah it's

Spencer doesn't have too many snakes. Like too many? I thought you were going to say no snakes. There's probably snakes, but Piscata has quite a few snakes. Okay, so we're not doing the sun. It's more in the sun. Like Spencer's wetter. Okay.

Snakes like the dry stuff. Got it. Yeah. Got it. So when it's in the sun over there, Piscuit's like in the sun all afternoon. That's where it's just like gopher snakes, but they look like rattle snakes. They're, I mean, they're this long. Yeah.

And they look, they don't do anything. Okay. But they look big. All right. I'll just have to. I mean, some things in like, you know, some things in life you just don't have to. Yeah. Deal with.

Yeah. And that's fun. That was one of those things. If I never see a ghost snake in real life, I'd be, I'll be fine. I hear you. Yeah. So, like, where do you see ultra running going? Because you said you've been a marathon guy.

Now you're getting, like, doing Western and then what? I don't know. Let's assume that goes good. You get your. under 24 Yeah, yeah, I get that silver buckle. The silver buckle 100 miles one day. I think that

I don't know like what race would happen next or what direction that would take but I would love to take whatever momentum that that would cause in the world of Tommy runs and build something that would give more accessibility or accessibility to people that wouldn't have imagined

being going on a trail run or being in the mountains, something like that. And just use that momentum to build something for people to either see from a distance and be inspired by or to physically be a part of. I kind of have some thoughts about, you know, what... I think watching from road running from 2019 till now, I think that some of the brands, just the way that society reacted to, you know,

2021, you know, George Floyd and all these other different instances that caused a lot of feelings and emotion and wanting people, wanting, you know, folks to color to be represented in a different way. I think that a lot of the brands responded well at that time, but then also the, I think if there was a little more foresight in certain moments, it would be something that's a little more sustainable and more real to this day. And with trail running being in the space that it is right now and is growing so fast, that I think and would hope that the same brands, just on the other side of their companies, could see the benefit of positioning themselves in a different way than they

did on the road. And using like all these you know resources and um in momentum that they have from the way the trail is growing to to provide people, all people of, you know, of the backgrounds that don't have the access or even like the imagination to end up some of these places to figure out like hey how can we include more people in this thing you know that there's room for it you know and i hope that if i can whether western states goes good or well or not like i hope that i could be a part of creating a lane so to speak to to help people see some other things yeah um so i said this i was on a panel at trailcon between broken arrow and uh western states last year and and it wasn't about

it wasn't about this at all it was about like content creation and stuff like that but I just like had to point out that like we went on a four mile run up the escarpment you know and I had been there before and saw all the things before but it's still

like as I'm going up this escarpment you kind of look to your right or your left or whatever and you can imagine that some people have never even thought of seeing the sight or the views yeah from these places right And it's not lost on me that like a kid or someone standing in that spot right there that I just ran past kind of wheeling-nilly-nilly on a shakeout run could change that person's like aspect or life or vision or perspective on like what is possible outside of running.

Yeah. And if I could use my voice or my privilege in this sense or. you know, my leverage, then I'll do it. Yeah. Yeah. Out in the mountains, there's no room for wheat gear. When I'm packing out meat in the heat or loading up for a long-range training trip, I need a cooler that holds the line every time.

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it's like it's so much especially now it just seems like it's so much to be um to react to yeah and that like there's something new every day that the thing that the thing things that we should just be like, let's stay reacting to this. Yeah, for a while. Just kind of, you know, go away. Let's not move on with the new cycle. Yeah. And it's like, some things are like, hey, let's address this for a second, but let's go back.

But I just feel like it was, I would have liked in hindsight, you know, to see different things happen. And I'm not sure. I mean, obviously, nothing's ever beyond like change or whatever. But just, you know, speaking about like for trail as it starts to grow and build, like, it would just be a shame to me to see a space that is so different and so like surprisingly welcoming. As like coming from like from my perspective, like walking into like Havillian 100 or Big Alta and feeling the way that me and my crew were extremely like welcomed and supported by random people, you know,

it's a different, trail is a different vibe for sure. So if that's the vibe of trail, then I'll like for more people to experience that yeah no i i get that i was like uh i was thinking too um what about like a tommy runs training camp for mountain run you know for new mountain runners yeah i mean i definitely i got i got a thing i got a thing i'll let you be the first person to know you'll be one of the first people to know once i'm like fully like aligned on what i want to do after western i think that'd be sick to expose yeah yeah for sure yeah because it's it's it's i you know i strongly feel that that that brands, you know, brands have to do their thing. They have to, from an influencer standpoint,

they have to, like, check the boxes for the views and the this and they got to sell. Right. And then, but I also feel like brands should always have a section of something that, like, this matches our core values. Yeah. And no matter what this side here is doing, we're always going to have this, whether it's two people doing it or 10 or 100 or whatever, we have to always have. we have to always have someone or people moving forward in that sense.

And a lot of times they do it through athletes. But then as we know through history, athletes don't necessarily have the time or capacity to like be an influencer in that sense. Like they're trying to win races. Yeah. There's not many special people like that that can go win a race, but then also connect with people. Give back to the scale.

I think you'd be perfect, dude. And it's like you talked about like the person who's never been there on the trail that gets to see this new perspective. You could do that with people and say, take a look at this. You could actually put words to it. I think you'd be perfect. And I think every brand,

not every brand, but most big brands would be like, yeah, we want to be part of this. Yeah, you'd hope so. I mean, just because it's so, it's a big deal,

but it's simple. It's not that, it's nothing, nothing new, you know, just, but that's what I hope to do. I hope to continue to push.

But the main, thing for me is that it's always I have to make sure that it if anything comes from to that extent like where I'm able to do stuff like that I want it to be built on the fact that you know that I've been true and authentic to like who I am what I am and then the the training and all this stuff is is is like first for me like I have to do all the things and I have to put on all the miles I have to be ready for it yeah you got to be authentic yeah like it's not just like hey just because I'm me or whatever, just jump in there and say, okay, I want to do this. It's like, I'm going to go, if you follow me, you already know that. But if you don't, then it's like,

I'm going to do all the things that I have to do to try to be ready for, whether it's a 5K or, you know, 100 miles or like TSP was 340 miles. Yeah. And I had no idea why I said yes to that, but we did it. That was like my first ultra experience. But even then, like, I said, I said, know twice to myself kind of and when I finally said yes it was because that I could I knew that I could make it make sense and make it do it for a reason but then I knew that I could put in the work for it so we raised money for release recovery that they give scholarships people looking to get into rehab but then also like my coach was like yeah I think you can do this we just got to put in a bunch of work and we did yeah nice who's your coach Melissa Johnson White so she's like

Have you heard of Hanson's marathon method? Yeah. So Lou Comfrey is that's his team. And I got hooked up with her before my first marathon in 2019. And I was like, I want to qualify for Boston. And she's like, well, you have to run a marathon. So I'm like, all right, let's run this first one and then see, you know, if we can train up for the second one. And so I've been with her since 2019.

Did you qualify? I mean, you did Boston. Yeah. So the first marathon, she's like, just break through 15. And so we can see how far we can go. Yeah. And then eight week training. playing really quick and did 313 in Detroit.

That's good. So area code 313. That's awesome. Oh, perfect. And then COVID. And then I ran 248, like 40 something. 248. 2.42.

Whoa. Yeah. Dude, that's good. And then, but then now, like, I think I'm on like 17 or 18 marathons. Oh, man. Yeah. Man, you're on one. Yeah, we're just, just training and working.

Love it. Doing too much. You said the 313. That reminds me of 8 mile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The movie. Yeah. It's a 313, put your hands up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. One person did not put their hands up or what, I can't remember how, but I love that scene. That was a good, it was a good movie. Eminem did a good job with the movie. I loved it. Yeah, he was a good actor too. Yeah, he didn't do bad. I mean, he's playing it.

I mean, he was kind of playing himself. He was. He did a good job at that. Yeah, for sure. He's got to deliver lines still. Yeah, yeah. Well, tell me about how, how was Eugene this time? Like, tell me, you've done that panel before then.

So I've done, so the PR project hosted the same type of show, like where it was, you know, eight guests in a day or whatever, just kind of back to back to it. Yeah. So we've done that twice. Okay. We've done that for the running event. Have you been to the running event yet in Austin? No, I haven't. You should go.

You should go all the time. It was in San Antonio for a couple years because they're doing like a renovation. Oh, yeah. It's a vibe. It's a vibe because like all the brands are there. But it's just, it's just a big conference. And I think I think you'd like it. But we've, we hosted T.R.

I read live there a couple times in a row or three times in a row now. So we're just like really good at just sitting down talking to people and kind of like cranking them out and, you know, next story, next story. But this time was cool because it was just me this time. And it was, it was cool to be able to just have those conversations again. But then each time is somebody different. Someone knew like you were on the show with Alexi. So I just, I like talking to people. having just a few things that I wanted to talk about,

just a couple of bullet points and then just kind of vibing out the rest and trying to figure out what makes people, you know, why are people there? And then, but then also like what makes them tick and have them move forward or, you know, why on earth would you want to be in your dream around the marathon, you know? Yeah. But it's been a vibe and got to see the marathon, got to see you go by, got to see my girl, put down a number. How is that?

You or everywhere out there? How did you get around so? fast. So a couple of times I saw you and I was like, yeah, I don't think he wants me to No, I was fine. I was just like in a groove. Yeah, yeah. I was just like I don't know. No, it's fine. Yeah, but no, it was, it was, because I've been there. I mean, I haven't run the race yet. Yeah, this is my fourth year here and I haven't run the marathon yet. You're like a professional spectator now. I'm a professional, like, that's the way I should just, I need to add that to the bio on, on IG. But it was cool because like, it's, it's not a bad

course to spectate you know like if you don't if you don't have a car to drive around you you can have a solid like three maybe four four points like at the start back at mile nine just then crossed the bridge 16 yeah and then back to like 25 or whatever right yeah so that's that's all is that where i saw you okay yeah saw you yeah saw you at nine yeah 16 around that corner well no you weren't you up on the parkway yeah so i came over to 23 i came down that way okay got you gotcha got yeah you were zoned out You don't even know where you were. I don't. I was pushing.

Yeah, and it was a vibe because you had like the buttoned up shirt, the cut off sleeves. I know. I had to. You had to play the role, you know. Got to do something crazy. Yeah, yeah. I got to take advantage of this before I get it changed out. What are you going to put?

They made a white one. Oh, no. Yeah. People are going to unfollow you, though. No, we're doing, yeah, anyway, we've got a plan. But so they said. I had a fake tooth. They said I had a cavity under it.

So they had to pull it out. So they pulled it out and then there was no cavity. So now I'm like, now I had a good tooth. Now I got to redo this. Anyway, I had to go. My teeth, I used to bleach them. Anyway, they wanted to match the color. So they said, come over here so it can match your teeth on the color.

And then I get over there. And they said, hey, she's like, hey, my husband does a really good job on gold teeth. Do you want for fun, make a gold one? I'm like. So how long have you had that? A couple weeks. Oh, that's it.

it? Okay. No, like, you got to feel like you got to like keep it for. Now it's like, yeah. I mean, I used to be so self-cont, like wanted perfect teeth, perfect hair. Like, now I just don't even care. But if you're going to have something there, it has to be a gold tooth. I feel like. I don't know. I think that if you're listening to this, I feel like you need to comment right away so he doesn't do this. Smash that like button. It smash that like button and say gold tooth. Yeah, gold. to keep the gold tooth. There you go. Yeah, yeah. I could easily be talked into keeping it. I just feel like you should keep it. Like, I don't know. I think that you should keep it.

What if your girl's like? What do you, do you think you should keep the gold tooth? Yeah. See? Yeah. The white one looked perfect. Okay. It did let, they put the white one in and I was like, God, dang, that. That looks good. That does look good, but let me see the gold one again. I'm like, yeah, let's see that. except I told him to not do the permanent permanent cement. So the other day I was running like on the course. And the tooth fell out.

Jesus. And I'm like, I'm like, I took a drink. And then I was like, do you talk different immediately when it's gone? Well, no, I was like, where did that tooth go? It was the gold tooth. And so then I thought, did I swallow that? Oh, my God. And I'm like, I'm going to have to make myself puke.

And because I was walking up and on the sidewalk over there on Amazon. on and I'm like, where the hell is that tooth? And finally, I found it. Oh, my God. So, yeah. Anyway, we've got a fix now. Okay. All right.

I can't wait to see the story of this. What happens next in the saga of the tooth? We're making a video. So I'm getting, well, that Bentley out there is like, I give away cars. So if you buy merch off my website, you have a chance of, I've, I've never given away car, but I've given away a lot of trucks. If you buy merch, you have a chance. for every dollar you spend to get a point whatever you can win this billy right with the camo

flames so but what i'm doing is we're gonna have like because i used to be well i still kind of am a redneck hillbilly but even more so and lived in trailer trailer parks type stuff so we're gonna do a we got did you talk to that trailer park guy yeah are we good yeah so we're gonna i'm gonna like act like I'm living in a trailer park. Okay. But with this car. Oh my gosh. And I'm going to wake up for the morning and grab my gold tooth and put it in in the trailer.

And then I'm going to go to the mirror, just thrash trailer. And this is my life when I started and then like played the answer machine. Some girl is going to be saying what a piece of shit I am and then drunk and all this. And then I'm going to go out of the trailer and get in that car. And so this is, and then we have cops that are. going to chase me. I'm like, wait, what's happening right now? So it's going to be a whole video.

I don't know which story is better. The tooth on the sidewalk or the getting chased by cops out of a trailer and a Bentley. We got to make the most stuff. That sounds like a random recreation remix of Eminem's 8 Mile story because, you know, he was in a trailer. I know. Yeah. So it's like this, you've taken it to another level though. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, and I like that, you know, he said he's white trash. I do live with my mom. So you take away all this shit people can say about you. Yeah. Then you just rap, you know. Then, so that's what I do. Okay.

Okay. Bro, now we're getting to the bottom of like the whole camera here story. You've just modeled yourself after Eminem after all these years. That's it. Nobody knew. No. Nobody did. No, now they know.

Now it's been exposed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun seeing you out there on the course. And like, I just like, I just loved the Eugene Marathon, but it's like having you there and having, because I didn't run last year. As I said, I was hurt. So I didn't see you last year. But I just thought it was such a good addition there to have that.

Appreciate that. Part of that. And every time when I was over there, because I went over there to make that bracelet yesterday. But it, it was like. There's not people over there. Yeah. It's definitely growing. Like, I mean, obviously, they have 1,500 more runners.

our marathoners this year than last year Wow So it's growing pretty fast And I've been Really You know we've been blessed To be like a part of it

And You know last year We had Curitamato on As like the main guest or whatever So a lot of people showed up for that And we had a big shakeout run last year Big shakeout run this year So it's been it's been really cool

To like for them to embrace You know because what happened was like I got invited What four years ago to come And I had just run Boston I'm like or I was planning on running Boston. Yeah.

And I'm like, I'm not going to run because I'm doing Boston. That's like my goal race. But if you, I got an idea. And that's my, that's my thing. I like pitch ideas. Yeah. That's good. I just feel like it'd be more me if I pitched the idea to you instead of you giving me the idea.

Yeah, yeah. But pitch the idea. And we came out and my friends, two friends ran the race, Gary and Aaron. And then she's like, we want you back? And I was like, well, how about this time? we sit down and do a show. And then she's like, yeah, sure. So we haven't got ourselves booted yet. So we just don't keep coming back. Maybe next year I'll run the race. Yeah, do it. I do it. I was going to say, if I run the Eugene Marathon, you crewed me,

throwing some. I'll run with you. All right. How about that? I'll take that. Which like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. What would your goal be? I don't know by them. Yeah, we're going to see where you're at. I'd love to, like, you know, after this, after Western, I'd love to, if the schedule doesn't get weird, I'd love to run a fast marathon in the fall, you know? And so, you know, what if I find myself back on a marathon? I know, that'd be sick. I mean, you could probably get in the 30s, couldn't you?

Yeah, for sure, I think so. You could take eight minutes off. I've tried to break my, so my PR is in Boston of 246.59. Oh, 246. Yeah, so six minutes. In, uh, uh, 2023. And, but I've tried to break it, like, honestly tried, like, three times yeah two of them were back to back so maybe the second one wasn't necessarily yeah i did berlin and then chicago oh okay but i've i just i don't like no shade to berlin marathon as a race

i just i just don't like super flat i don't think right i just the super flat yeah a little bit and um and then came back and then did chicago and tried that there but so i haven't broken that pierre and it's a long time to carry a pr i boston's a weird course to have a pierce it's not three years old it's not 20 years dude i carried mine for 20 years. That's true. That's true. I mean,

but maybe I need to go to jogging. Yeah. Start jogging. Yeah. No. I think, yeah, it'd be cool to,

so have you done the whole, like, track workout and all that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, because I started with a coach before I ran a marathon.

Because, like, I thought, like, if I'm going to qualify for Boston within a year and a half of this moment, then I'm going to need some help. You need some help.

And that kind of goes back to like the sobriety thing because, like I know when I need help and yeah and and let's a good choice let's jump in and she's been great though because she's she's trained me through the the TSP thing um through the 100 milers 100 ks the 16 17 marathons and all that so she's been great like she's been super flexible um like 2024 I ran seven marathons but all six majors before there were seven and then the of the seven the first one was uh Osaka oh man Osaka Tokyo seven days apart yeah and um so she's

She's been a vibe, bro. That's sick. You've got to do all that. How lucky is that? Yeah, super. I mean, I didn't even. I mean, well, must be nice. You earned it.

Yeah. But people say lucky. I'll say lucky. But pretty amazing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Lucky blessed or something. Yeah.

I mean, because it's all good. Opportunity shows up. And if you're ready. Yeah. You got to be ready. Yeah. And available and willing. What's the newest major?

Sydney. Oh, Sydney. Yeah. So Sydney is the seventh. And then they'll do. I believe like Cape Town would probably be the eighth like soon

maybe like next year and then like Shanghai I think it would be nine so it would be nine majors running's going ape shit isn't it yeah and then you got then you got London doing

trying to have 100,000 people in two days it's just crazy how do you like it do you like the like the way it's as popular as it is yeah

I mean there's always growing pains you know but no I like it because I like people doing cool shit. Yeah. You know, it's like most, I want people who aren't doing cool stuff

to get out and live. Yeah. You know, and what I always say when I meet somebody, my thing is like, tell me a story. Mm-hmm. If they don't have a good story, I'm like, what the fuck?

What are we doing? What are we doing? Yeah. I want to hear us, tell me a good story about something you've done. And some people just don't, don't have them. And so I love that. that running can, you have stuff to talk about.

You have experiences to talk about. You have success and failures and people you met. And all these things, it's like, okay, now we're, that's living. Yeah, I feel like, yeah, I agree. I agree that, like, it gives you, like, a thing to talk about. But I feel like there's, when people ask me about, like, content and, like, what's a, get some advice to whatever and grow my channel and all this other stuff, I think that, like, we all have, we all have stories. Yeah. I just feel like we're so, we're so, for so long,

you tell yourself like your story doesn't matter. Right. Yeah. You know, like there's, if you just worked at like Staples for 20 years, I mean, it's, it's a different story, but you have, you have something. Yeah. And I just, that's, that's my thing. Like, if, people telling their stories, like, literally changed and saved my life, you know, the rooms at A, So it's like, that's why I put my forward. Right. And it probably wasn't like what people would categorize as an amazing story. Yeah.

But it's their story. Yeah. So you know what? When I did these books, I didn't think I had anything worth a book. Yeah. So it's kind of the same thing. Yeah. And my publisher convinced me that, oh, no, this is good.

People would enjoy this. And I'm like, I doubt it. So it's just that. And it's like, but once you find a hobby or a thing, then it's like that can be like the canvas that, like, that lets you start telling that story. That's true. Because it doesn't always have to be like, my story isn't necessarily about running. You know, like I just do that. But then because I do that, you know, if I was like bowling and I love that or whatever, I would probably somehow be doing the same storytelling kind of through bowling, you know.

And I just like, whatever your hobby is or whatever your thing is, to me, it's easy for like, like, you know. guess me to say or whatever, but I feel like I'd rather have a smaller following and like all of, and everybody that sees my stuff is like, feel something and resonates because that story seems unique and it resonates with them, then like have no story and just kind of like, you know, just churning out a thing. Yeah, just to appeal to followers. And but then there's people that have both. Yeah. Which is amazing. And those are people that like, that make change in in really cool ways. I had a question for you too.

So it's like you've created this thing. And you know, you start off and we're on the panel or in the pod and you're like, you know, I'm a bow hunter first. And then, but then from my view, you're all the, you know, you're a runner, you know. And but you've built this whole thing based off of like who you are at your core, which is a bow runner in a bow hunter. But how do, you know, as you've built this thing. And I'm sure people reach out to you for so many different ways because you talk about struggle,

you talk about keep hammering and all these other things. But what's like one thing that like you feel that you continually tell people about like how you got to this point that maybe people like overlook? Like how do you become like camera hands that people don't know? It's just not quitting. It's just, you know, I had a passion. It was bow hunting and I was obsessed with it. And then I just haven't quit. like everything I've done, even with running,

was to help me in bow hunting. And so what I would say is, no matter, sometimes it takes a long time. Like I did this for decades before really anybody knew who I was, right? And if you want that immediate, you know, I mean, immediate returns or the quick fix or it's just probably not going to happen.

So, but if you're willing to put your head down, and just get to work and grind. And, you know, stay true to, I guess, your passions and just the hard work and not take shortcuts, then yeah, you can turn it into something special. But like even the running today was a great example, my PR, I've been doing this for 50 years, right?

I just haven't quit. So how does somebody get faster after 50 years? she's got to keep going to work. It's got to keep putting in the work. And so that's the only reason why I've had success in anything is I just don't quit. Like there's a lot of people like I went to school with it, better athletes, obviously smarter.

Obviously, smart is great. More connected. Their family had more money. But I just never quit. And so I've, I've, you know, passed up all of them. But they had all. the advantage. Yeah. But it's just it's hard to you know people just want these this these results too fast and they give up on things before because they don't get them and who knows what it could

have led to. So like another question I guess a follow up for that like just like how running for you you know you did this all in all these years and then but you made like you made a switch you changed something you know like you didn't just continue to do you you you didn't quit but you made a a pivot. But I'd imagine, like for, we've all had a moment where, like, we're sticking to the plan, we're doing the thing, but maybe when other people would just stick to that and not necessarily learn or change, that little shift is, you know, essentially, you know, the 239. Yeah, yeah. And so I think it's important to keep hammering and keep pushing, but then there's also, like, those moments where things like,

the line and you should listen to subtle changes, like not quit or go the other direction, but it's like maybe I should try this little new way. Yeah, when I think of that, when you bring that up, it reminds me of like my buddy Joe Rogan. He was for years, he's telling me to quit my job because I had a full-time job just until I retired three years ago. I was, I worked at the water and power company here. I was a superintendent in the water division. And I worked there for 26 or 27 years. So that's what I did. And he's just like, dude, he goes, you need to quit that job.

I'm like, job's the best job I've ever had. How can I quit the best job I've ever had? I'm making good money. I like leading men. I like construction. I was a buyer for 20 years. So I like numbers and buying and contracts. Why would I quit that?

This is just all I'm good at. And then he's just like, no. he goes, you know, your podcast could do well. You could just, you'd be way more successful if you didn't have to go to that job every day. And I didn't believe them for years. And then finally, I set, you know, got to where over at Springfield Utility Board, when you're 55, you can retire if you've been there, I think 20 years or something like that and get all your retirement. So I made it till my 55th birthday. That was my last day.

And so that was three years ago And then now this has happened. So none of this would have happened without that. And if I wouldn't quit that, I couldn't have went and taken jelly roll hunting. I couldn't have went like all these like giant life changing events would never have happened because I had to be at work. Yeah.

So that's an example of sometimes you just have to even though nobody would blame me for not quitting that job. Yeah. Because it was. good job in a career and it provided you know for my family so nobody's saying you're an idiot for keeping that job but there was a better path and i just had to do it yeah that kind of like it feels like my my t sb the speed project experience yeah so like my my the company i worked for all those years was was changing and it had they had to sell or whatever and i got offered the same position

at this next company that was going to be buying ours you know and this was was in February of 2025 and TSP's a month away, you know, because I'll be gone for how many of a day to Las Vegas. Right. And they offered the position

and they're like, as soon as we're really excited to have you on, whatever, will get you back on the road, traveling again as much as you were. And, you know, like that whole, like, corporate thing.

Yeah. And I'm on the call, like, if they could see me, I'm like, you are not saying what I need you to say. It's a last thing I wasn't here. And then they're like, you got like 10 days PTO.

And I'm like, 10 days. Like, bro, I'm about to use eight of them, like, next month. And, but that was, like, the vibe. Like, it would have been, I guess, like, smart. It's like, for, you know, like, it'd have been smarter. Okay. The safe bet. Safe bet.

But I was able to, like, I just said, no, I'm okay. And then I ran TSP the next year or, like, the next month. And that, you know, we'll see how, it's only a year ago now, but we'll see. It feels like it's changed my life a lot. Yeah. Like, not just the next. not having the job, but doing something that's like way out of, out of the ballpark for me, you know, originally. And now I'm, you know, we're under Western, Western States and,

you know, but nine weeks. I love to see it. Yeah. So it's like crushing it. Yeah. So I guess the only reason I asked that, because I knew it would be, you know, you know, next, next, next, next, keep pushing. But then at the same time, it's like you, you've made, you've obviously made smart decisions or changes along the way that, that, that I think people think that a lot of the people that are successful and like high flying and stuff like that that they stick to one thing and they just hammered home and then you're like but I've been doing this for how many years nothing's happened it's like what things have you passed up along the way that could have been little deviation that's true yeah that's that's the actual that's a wrinkle I wasn't considering um I was just thinking about do you have

merch um I I don't yet I've had merch in the past okay um I've had like little drops here and there that that worked out um Because that's my podcast, the time we're show started off has the Run Eat Sleep Show. Yeah. And I was just talking to runners, like, just back to back. Like, that's how I interview, like, Sarah Hall, stuff like that.

And I had a shirt that said, run, eat, sleep, repeat on it. So, like, that was my merch at the time. But I think with this new Ultra one thing, I have something kind of brewing that I'm excited about. Well, you got a look, you know, you got a unique look.

You can market that for sure. Yeah, for sure. I'm trying to. Yeah. No, you got what it, I mean, dude, you could, you are blowing up. And I love it. I appreciate that. I didn't, you know, this wasn't planned.

This just kind of happened organically just because I was over there. Then, hey, want to be on the pod? Saw you all day today. It was just, it's just awesome. I'm super, super grateful that, you know, I know we're out on the marathon course all day. This is the last, sitting in that hard chair. Probably is not the greatest thing to do right now. But I really appreciate you guys coming over in this time.

No, man, I appreciate that. It was actually when the way, you know, it happened, we did the interview and then you were just kind of like right away like, hey, you want to be on the pot? And like, I know I've seen your podcast before and I've seen the guests and people that you have on the show. And it was, to me, I'm like, you know, even if we had to like stay a little longer or something like that, to be honest, like, I don't think that you just like randomly ask people to be on the show. So it was an honor to be invited to come over. So appreciate it, man. Oh, yeah, dude. No, I'm, I'm, the pleasure is mine.

Did you have any questions? I have a couple. Okay. We got referring to the crowd, you know? These are going to be stupid questions and we usually cut them out. I've got a couple good ones. He can barely speak. It seems like there's kind of a through thread of runners who have been alcoholics or addicts.

And you guys kind of touched on it. But why do you think it is that so many of them have. have a story where they've gotten sober and they've turned to running as their new fix or the new thing that they're kind of addicted to? I think that it's, well, I don't like to say addicted to it because like to me addiction is, I've even heard like Rich Rowe say this a lot, it's like addiction is takes from you. You know, it's harmful. It harms your family. It harms you. And running is, it could be a passion or a hobby or a habit or a habit. you know more so than because it it I feel better I feel my family is my kids are can be inspired by

it and watch what I do and it's like an enhancement it's an enhancement like yeah discipline you know but I think that sobriety and in running or movement that you're that you like have to make a decision to rededicate yourself to often sometimes every day you got to dedicate yourself to go on and do the thing. It feels a lot like the, it feels like kind of the grind of, of maybe being an addict or an alcoholic, but it's your choice. You know, like you talked about like suffering in a way. And I've always said like I'll never suffer as much as I did in alcoholism as I,

you know, the little suffering that I got to do with on the road or the trail, but it's a choice. And I feel like the way that you can decide to go for a run and suffer a bit and feel better at the end versus not being able to control it and then just suffering every day. I feel like something about that feeling of choosing to suffer is attractive to people who have suffered for so long, kind of at the hands or at the power of something else. their addiction yeah you know and so i think it's it's a it's a comfort to be able to go someplace for a little while and get close to that and step away from it and feel and be done with it and feel better and they get to do it again yeah like they control the the terms of it yeah like i can i chose it because like

drinking sometimes you're not even no there's you don't control it i don't yeah i think some people may be able to control that thing but i can't and i know that i had no i had no control over that and the the the times that I drank and the in the choices to drink in times and moments when I could I could feel like when I would touch things with my fingers I would it I'd feel it like a half a second later and I was only 33 I was on high blood pressure medicine you know I could I would I could feel my blood pressure was getting higher like my face would kind of go a little numb my fingers would go a little numb yeah and I was still drinking through that you know and but now I get

to decide to go suffer a bit for a six-mile run or a 10-mile run or a 20 or whatever. And I feel good after. And I think that for some reason, those two things just kind of go well together for folks that like struggle through something for a long time. That makes sense. Have you talked to Max, Jolov, yet? I've met Max. I haven't sat down and talked to me yet.

But I watched the King of Moab like a few times. I was training for, I was training for CSV. And I'm just like watching that like over and over. It's like a regular movie. Yeah, it is. I like the beach kid too. Yeah, yeah. That was the first one I think I saw.

And then I saw King of Moab. But I'm like, okay, this is cool. And he, I think he's talking about sobriety more and more. So that's good. Yeah, I saw your tattoo on your hand. Oh, yeah. I was like. This one?

Yeah. So this one, so if I could. So this one, my, my best friends, he met him was like 12, right? And we just like immediately were like literally. brothers, you know, and we went through a bunch of random shit together over the years. And he passed in March 15th of last March in 2025, like a week before I went off to run from LA to Vegas. So, and he passed essentially, you know, or potentially because of a substance abuse. And I didn't know what he was going through, you know. And it kind of.

it hit me really hard so i got this tat it's like a the celtic symbol for brotherhood or friendship and i got this tat right before i went to to to um to run across the desert where i were in death valley on the saturday who's born you know i mean not born uh buried yeah um and it just that's just i'm so i'm glad you kind of like point that out but i'm sorry you lost that battle yeah yeah it's um i mean it sucks but then you know like it kind of made me um like remember what I got sober for too. Yeah. And it isn't just for a selfish pursuit of just like feeling good.

It's like I should be able to tap it and tell the stories and continue to try to actually help people, you know, and not just use it as like some type of stick or whatever. Right. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. That's a good perspective. Did you have another one?

Yeah. One more. So you had mentioned, you know, you could have never dreamed of what this had turned into years ago when you started it. So now that you're here, where do you draw that line of dreaming too big and not dreaming enough? Oh, man. I don't think that there's, I don't think that there's really anything, you know, there's never a dream that's too big. I don't feel.

I just feel like the bigger dream is, the more you'll just have to put action or work or process behind it. And I think that we all skewed towards probably not dreaming enough. and like the concept of like I don't have a story to tell. Yeah. But it's, I think if we maybe just step away a little bit from the thing that we do every day and like the grind that we kind of have to put ourselves through or whether it's responsibilities or a job or whatever, if you take a step back from those things,

you have a little more room to like see potentially where the dream could be if you don't feel like you have one. or you don't have big enough ones. But for me, like, I want, I have to kind of remind myself, not that I'm like that guy, but I mean, I think I am sometimes. But you have to kind of remind yourself what you want to do with this life. That's what for me. I guess I have to remind myself what I want to do.

And the things that I'd like to do, and I'd like to create. create more in the world and touch more people in the world and leave an impact that that matters. And so I have to remind myself to dream bigger. Because it just, I'm blessed to be here. Like literally, I know for sure I wouldn't be here. You know, so who am I to not like remind myself like, bro, like go circle the moon or something. Right. You know what I have no desire to go around the movie.

Tommy runs the movie. That's what I see. I mean, we got to do a book first. A book. A book's easy. Yeah. I mean,

you're so insightful. And like you, okay, it's no surprise that you're good at conversation and talking to people and putting things in perspective because you have a gift. You are really,

yeah, I mean, you're, you're good so i'm not surprised at the success but i'm also not surprised i won't be surprised on where it goes because i just feel like it's yeah you have what it takes i appreciate that man yeah now this this has been this has been amazing i'm super grateful uh you're good james yeah okay no more james oh my gosh dude i just want to say thank you thank you thank you for appreciate it for doing this making time i know you guys want to just get out of here and relax

I get it, but I'm super grateful. We got an after party to go to, man. Are you? I don't know. Oh. The only time I go to parties is like literally at marathons. Like if I'm at home, just invite me because I want to be invited. Yeah, but I may actually have something to do, you know?

Yeah, no. Well, get to that after party. Thank you. Yeah. Appreciate it. Appreciate you, man. Thanks so much. Keep hammering, guys.