Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 193 - Cocodona Debacle

Episode Date: May 13, 2026

Join us for a recap of the Cocodona 250 race - why and how Cam DNF’d, the importance of a race crew, Rachel Entrekin’s record breaking finish, and more! Follow along: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes⁠  Twitter: ⁠https://twitter.com/cameronhanes⁠  Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/⁠  Website: ⁠https://www.cameronhanes.com⁠  Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Cam’s DNF and Why Having a Race Crew is Important 00:08:12 – Cocodona Start Line 00:14:35 – Crown King, Running with Michael Versteeg, and How Cam Fell 00:29:41 – What Ultra Running Races Mean to Cam 00:46:05 – The Controversy Behind Peptides & BPC 517 01:03:52 – Women Athletes: Is Estrogen the Superpower? 01:14:43 – Surgery and Future Faces 01:23:01 – Upcoming Rivet’s Bear Hunt & Aravaipa Running Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off Black Rifle Coffee: https://www.blackriflecoffee.com/ Use code KEEPHAMMERING for 10% your order Sig Sauer: https://www.sigsauer.com/ use code CAM10 for 10% off optics Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 20% off

Every step I take, I move my truth. Every time they tell me stop I use. Every comment hate that makes my feel. Gather up my energy and boom. I hear them talking, saying the way that I move it's so reckless. That is a part of my mind I've been blessed with. Giving my blood so I am relentless. This is Keep Cramer and Collective.

I am Cramarine Haines. This is Eric Triple Oaks. I mean, are. Oh, you just switch? I switched rematch. Shit. Back to the original. Switch.

Eric, Remax. What you'll have? Last name again? Umanhofer. Umunhoff. Oomanhoff. And James Gideon Dumpf. Yeah.

How's it going, guys? Oh, great. Yeah, recovering. Yeah, we're recovering from Cocoa. Yeah. Oh, man. What, uh, what is it? I don't know.

I'm going to try to keep this one not a shit talker's vibe because I've been like, I don't know if I'm like turned into a pussy after I, and F F and F. But I just don't have the I just the shit talking is like I think I'm like too depressed or some fucking things.

It's like, so I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to keep this one like normally I would call everyone a pussy and fuck everyone. And I feel like I'm not gonna do that. I feel like I'm just gonna be like just kind of normal,

which is gonna be weird. I'm doing the same because I was gonna wear my bandana my do rag yeah you got beat up for that thought didn't yeah yeah i decided not to i'll wear that on the shit talkers episode so i'll just i'll just preface this discussion this is a coca donna recap um i shit the bed at coca dona definitely but um you guys were both there you were key members of my crew james you were filming eric you were like your your crew lead now you weren't then you're kind of like what is going on here yeah but you were there the whole time you were there the whole time and so I thought it'd be fun to you know it's weird it's like last year you get that buckle

and it's not even like there's some crazy buckles on ultra right this is nothing special no but when you don't have it it feels like you really want that nothing special buckle I got one last year and just kind of threw it up there just like put it with the other buckles and now this year I don't have one and I'm like I know it's not very flashy but it's very meaningful and I didn't get it. There's an empty spot on the shelf. I don't know. It's a, it's rough, dude.

I will say Eric has been signing off all his emails with Cameron Haynes, crew chief. I almost got a shirt made today to bring, but they couldn't. Gen X couldn't get it done in time. Oh, that's been sick. That would have been sick. Well, um, God, what a, we got a lot. Your race might have been cut short, but we got a lot to go through. Yeah, so, all right.

Well, I'll let you guys like, I'm just going to. chime in because I probably start crying. Well, I think, you know, to tell this story, we have to go back to the beginning. No, we do have to go back to only two or three weeks before, two weeks, really, before Cocoa was happening. And that is when you officially decided to do it. Yeah.

Given that the Eugene Marathon, you didn't blow up your legs. Right. So I do, I want to start there because that is absurd. Yeah. To decide to do a 250 plus mile race only two weeks before you're supposed to do it. Yeah, I don't make the best decision sometimes. But I'm just, I'm just addicted to the environment, to the people, to the community. And it's like when I'm healthy, I mean, even with when I'm not healthy, I want to be there. You know, last year was a good indication of that. But it's just, you know, for ultra and for running and for people who love the mounds it's like there's it's magical and so yeah i mean

i make poor decisions to try to get my body there and um it didn't work out this time i mean yeah i don't even know if we could say it's a poor decision because things were going great until one wrong this step so i don't know but i do want to i wanted to start there because trying to put together a crew two weeks out before race starts that is where the difficulty started Yeah. You know, because then you have to get an Airbnb or hotels or, in our case, a van to crew you. And that's where it really started to go down. Yeah.

Because the van we had booked, canceled, and then Rihanna was scrambling to put one together, and we got one. But it was not the best vehicle for the terrain, thanks to the guy who rented it. But it was more of like a party bus. Yeah, called the Cousin Eddie's van. Yeah. I mean, I shoulder was full. I didn't, I didn't know nothing even about that. You know, that was you guys dealing with that.

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and try it for yourself. Get serious, get Hoyt, and keep hammering. And I think what I learned, this lesson that I learned, and we'll recap a lot of shit that I learned. But I had in my head that I'm the runner, I'm the athlete, I'm the athlete, I'm a lot of shit. I'm going to go and perform, and I don't need anybody. That is not true. I need a lot of help. And the crew on an event like that is just as important as athlete,

because it's just critical to keep going for 250 miles, you know, pushing physical, mental, spiritual limits, you have to have support. And so I haven't put the emphasis I need to on the crew. And I, you know, learned that lesson this year. It was, it was hard. I mean, we didn't even get into the hard part because I, you know, before we even got there.

But, yeah, the crew is, it's key, dude. And I think we all learned that. And we're excited for the next chance, for sure. Yeah. It's, I don't know. I don't like to hear you say, you know, failed or fucked up or whatever. I mean, obviously in my post I said that, but it was because of what Max said at the end, which was, you know, he said you guys had to have happened what happened to you guys

in order for the victors and Rachel to have her race. Not to say that if you guys didn't fuck up, you fucked up, she wouldn't have had it, but there's two sides to every coin. Yeah. And so the way I look at it is like somebody had to do it. And, you know, you run through that race and you run through that race and you, hope it's not you, but sometimes it is, and that's just life. I mean, I think it's more important, this is so cliche, but it is really true. It's like, what do you do after you get up? You know,

how do you move forward? If you quit, then yeah, maybe it is a failure, but that's not what you're planning on doing at all. So I don't know. I mean, we can dive more into kind of the, is that ethos? Yeah. That's a big word. I'm going to pluck that one out of the air. Not that big, but. Yeah. Well, big for me. I think I can spell it. But, yeah, Yeah. So we put together a hodgepodge of a crew two weeks before, really like a week before, after you finished the Eugene Marathon. You texted me and was like, hey, can Eric go? And I tried to give him the breakdown of what it was. You know, I was like, it's not a vacation. Like for the crew, a regular person can't just crew one of these races, especially if your racer is trying to push and be at the front of the pack and do things that they've never done before. You know, the crew has to be on board with. being tired and strung out and under pressure. Because when your runner comes in, you better have everything dialed because they've just run 14, 15 miles. Or in your case, those two sections were 37 and 38.

So you're kind of expected to have everything dialed. And, you know, we might have missed a few things, you know. But, yeah, I mean, I guess we could just start at the start of the race, which was, again, last year we were able to get an Airbnb really close to the start. And this year we just stayed in the hotel. It ended up being only 30 minutes or so. But I told Eric before we went, like, the start of that race is so cool because this year, there was double the people, but it's like all these people are lining up knowing that for the next couple days,

they are going to be in the worst pain they've ever felt. They're going to want to quit, but yet they keep going. And to me, that energy is, it's really hard to capture in a photograph or a film, but if you're there, you understand it. It's like this. I don't know, the crowd's buzzing and everybody's excited. And I don't know. I don't think there's really anything else where you can get that kind of feeling.

You know, because in an NFL game, you get the crowd, but they're not playing. No. You know? Like, they're not doing shit. So it's a different feeling. Well, that's like my experience, too, it is like coming from, I know nothing about Ultra. You know, I know you and you've, and you've given me like Courtney DeWalter, who I know. So that was the only two people coming into this.

And like experiencing that start line and just the energy, the vibes, the atmosphere, it's like, That kind of was the point when I was like, oh shit, like, this isn't vacation. You know, like, this is the real deal. And like, everyone's getting to go, go to war and stuff like that. And when they took off and everything was just like, this is going to be kind of wild. And then obviously settling and getting everything going at that point was just a real eye-opening experience for me. Yeah. But maybe we should talk about our opinions on the start times.

Maybe we can start a movement. God, the 5 a.m. start time is brutal just because we know we're not going to sleep for a few days. And so now with a 5 a.m., you're not sleeping that the night before either. You didn't sleep at all. You got to get up at three. I was up all night. I mean, you guys were in my room. We were getting stuff ready.

Of course, I never have anything ready. But I didn't sleep at all. And I don't think anybody, you know, you have this plan. I'm like, okay, I'm going to be in bed at six. Nah, it doesn't work. You got stuff going. Nerves are going. You can't go to sleep.

It's like there's so much to keep track of. You got, I'm sure people are way better than I am at it. but I need to get better. Anyway, you start off with that 5 a.m. start time. You start off tired. Yeah. Yeah. So that's not helping anything.

No. But I don't know, a noon start time, we're not sleeping any. We're up for three days anyway. So let's just get a good night's rest to start. Yeah. Maybe this will start the movement. We'll see. Maybe people can hit that comment button and let us know why they start at 5 a.m.

Yeah. So that's the first part, but. for me that first you know again I was laying there same as last year wondering what am I doing what am I I mean come on what am I am I am old you know I'm I haven't been I haven't been training specifically for a multi-day I'd been training for roads I wanted to get my my best marathon time and so I'd been putting pretty much all my focus on that you know running with Trouin training more speed. So it wasn't the best decision to even show up there, but I did. Yeah. Yeah. And you start off and it's like you see all the stars, you know, I mean, everyone was there at the start line, you know,

gave Max a hug, uh, was there with Eli, Andy, Courtney, Rachel, Michael, Versage, uh, Killian, everyone. Everyone was right there. Yeah. ready to go, Sally. Everybody you know an ultra was there. And we take off and it's a, you know, that first section is legit. Yeah, it is. I mean, that night before we were in your room,

but that's what I was doing was trying to put everything in your pack because we don't see you for those first 37 miles. And it's a big climb. And so I was like trying to count my head, okay, calorie-wise, he's going to need a little more. We know what we, you had to have. have during the day, but what are you going to need for that first 37? And I don't know if you ate most of it or drink most of it. Yeah, it was almost perfect. So we can take note of that.

Yeah, I was a little, I didn't quite get all the gels in, but I did way better. And I felt way better. Yeah, yeah. You know, so that, that fuel is key. Yeah. But yeah. Okay, so from the start, I mean, walk us through how you're feeling. I was feeling pretty good. I got up there, ran with Andy Eli, Sally, we got a little video clip. Of course, Andy and Eli, that's like, that's what they do the whole bunch of time, Ryan. But it was fun to beat those guys. And then I got up at the first aid station. I didn't, I was good on water because I was so full. I had so much water and it wasn't that hot. And that was only like seven miles in, but a lot of people were filling up. Some people went light on water. So I didn't really stop there. I kept going and I saw Verstige was there and

Max was back there. So I'm like, uh, or maybe Max is ahead. I can't remember now. But anyway, I got up there and I think I caught up to McKnight and I ran with McKnight for a while. His legs were a little bit. He, they, he didn't have his legs. And, um, you know, he's coming off the Monster 300 win. So he, you know, sometimes your legs after a big effort like that, it takes a little bit if they ever come back. I mean, props to him for he, he, fucking grind it out. top 10 finish but uh so we ran i talked to him i really like michael mike mcnott i want him on the podcast he's such a beast but uh yeah and so just i feel good though i mean i was i was running good yeah so it was it was fine we were obviously you know checking into the tracker and and then

trying to match up your times at the last year i think we figured out that the time we had on the spreadsheet was one hour it was one aid station off yeah yeah so anyways but But you were still ahead of it by a couple minutes. So we were like, okay, he's moving pretty good. And then watching the tracker once we were up at Crown King was like, you slowed down right at 30. We were like, oh, maybe he's just chilling at the station. There was an eight station there.

Yeah. But somewhere right in there, I obviously go up because I wanted to run down with the gimbal as you kind of came into Crown King and, you know, see you coming from a distance and blood streaking down your face. and I immediately was like yeah I was a it was a rough start

I hooked up with Verstige who won the first one first Cocodona he's like a folk hero down there everyone loves him he lives down there he's just a legend right so we ended up running together for hours and I really like him

I'm not I don't like regular people I get bored with It's whoever, if you're regular, fuck. But he's not a normal person, and he's a character, and I love it. That's who I like to be around, different people. And he's different. I love it. We couldn't be more different.

Yeah. And we just had a good connection that day. He ended up getting bloodied up a little bit too. He was with me when I fell. And what it was, this race was like so competitive, so fast. so many of the best 200 milers in the world. And so everybody's pushing, pushing hard. And so we were running down a section.

It's like really rocky, pretty steep, but you have to push if you're going to keep contact, you know. And we weren't very far back. And I caught a toe and I had my hands and my poles. And so I just, I don't know if I couldn't figure out where to put my hands, but point is I caught a toe, went down. my head went, you know, drilled, drilled right into a rock. And I thought, I told him, you know, I put my hand up, he helped me up.

I was just like, fuck, dude, God. I'm like, you know, how's it look? And he's just like, not good. Blood was coming down pretty good. But what I told him is I said, hey, I don't think, I didn't get concussed. I said, I don't think I got concussed. I think I think I'm good because it didn't seem like it should be good, but I felt okay. So we took off because that's what you do.

You just fast yourself off and get going. And we got back on the pace and then coming down into Crown King, I probably fell at about mile 30. Maybe that's where it was. That's what I was thinking. I was sure we had to dick around maybe for a minute. But so then I came down into Crown King. and I was just I was fine you know I had I knew I had blood all over me my arms were pretty banged up too um but whatever I mean I got down there I was not in the greatest mood because

it didn't seem like our uh our aid station was ready this is the baptizing by fire yeah when I first saw you the first thing you said to me is you couldn't see that your eyes were jumping all over the eyes. Yeah. And then I think after that you had said, you know, you had puked or something. But either way, I immediately started, you know, the alarm bells start sounding. Yeah, I hadn't, I hadn't puked at that time. I puked after I left there.

Okay. But my eyes, this eye for sure was screwed up. But it's like, I couldn't, they wouldn't like, it was just weird. This wouldn't work. Yeah. And you still had your hat on, so I couldn't see it. So I thought it was just like you hit right above your eyebrow. There was a big kind of clot of blood right there.

I'm thinking, oh, he had his eyebrow, but I'm looking at it. I'm like, it's not too bad. We get you down to the aid station. In my head, I'm thinking, okay, I've seen this. You know, not this bad, but, you know, blood, like, that's normal for you. So, but I'm thinking, okay, he's going to go down into an aid station with a bunch of people who've never been to a race like this, covered in blood. This is going to be good. Great. And that was the experience we got. That's exactly what happened. I know. I want to hear your thoughts when you first saw. Well, just like the experience, first off, that was my first aid station ever, going up to Crown King, which is kind of confusing because there's like all these multiple parking lots. We had to park our van at Bumblebee Ranch.

We transferred everything into that we had into Recovery Strong's van with Jared. He was great. So he helped us drive up in his van. And we like, they originally put us up on this like hill. And I'm like, there's no way that Cam's going to run in here and want to run up a hill. Like let's start unloading stuff and put it down there, get a chair ready or this, that, and the other. and finally a spot opened up so we ran down opened it got it thought we had everything laid out and I'm like well I'll just wait at the corner here he's going to run in I'll call him in before he goes

to the next checkpoint we kind of got that figured out and then you came running down I was like holy shit and then you were confused because I'm kind of like hey you need to like come this way and you're like no it's that way and I'm like no you need to come this way so that's just kind of adding you know I'm stressed the whole situation then we got you set down but I'm pulling off your cap being like that's a pretty good wound. And obviously, someone she got, you know, pressure on it, started doing. And then that's where the fun began when you were, where's my hamburgers? That's not what he said. He said, I already know the answer to this. I already know the answer to this. Where's my burgers? Yeah. Yeah, about that. Well, my list says pop tarts.

There's plenty of blueberry pop tarts. And then getting that, like, honestly, at that point, It was like, okay, number one, like, we got to stop this, like, bleeding and figure this out what it is and trying to be as calm as we can. We know you, like, you're going to keep going and do your thing. Yeah. So you're probably seeing the video on the back throwing stuff up in the air, trying to find bandages and stuff like that. But luckily, yeah, luckily we were able to get something on it and get some pressure and duct tape it and get your cap and stuff back on. Yeah, it was, I mean, when I took the hat, the hat kind of helped because when I took the hat off, it bled. Yeah.

I mean, it was gushing. You're bleeding real good. So it's like the hat did help for a while. But then we did get bandaged up and it was good. I got some food in. Wasn't that happy, which it's, I need to get better. I mean, if we can get the A station better and more of a plan because I don't like to waste energy being pissed. Totally.

You know what I mean? I want to focus on what I need to do. And at that time, I was just like damage control because I was like beat up. Yeah. But then I was also like, what is going on? So it was like, it was a rough first one. But it, you know, we got it figured out. It was drinking out of a firehouse.

You know, but I think you mentioned something kind of after the fact that I thought was so important like on that and just having that experience for me and these ultras and stuff like that. It's like you have to know as like a crew member that no matter what shape these people come in, like you have to stay positive. Unless it's something that's just like obviously horrendous or something, but it's like, even in your case, like, we know you're going to keep going on.

Later down the road is your legs stop working. Like you have to look at them and go, no, bud, you look great. Like keep going and just keep that positivity because the moment that energy starts shifting, it's going to affect you. And your job is just to run. Our job is to figure everything else out. Yeah. And that was like watching other teams and kind of like as I went on and was seeing that and like seeing how people are put together. It's like, okay, there's like a method to the madness here.

Yeah. And I didn't have it. You know? Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. Yeah. If you haven't already noticed, I'm pretty into routine. I lift, run, and shoot every day.

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So at one point, I'm like, I'll put the camera down. I like, if I have to put the camera down, we'll figure this out. Well, that was the wild part, too, is I started, like, right where you came in, I started getting text messages from, like, friends around the country, and they're like, Cam's heads bleeding. And I'm like, what do you talk? And literally that moment, I'm like, holy shit, there is, you know? Yeah.

It's quick. Happens quick. But, yeah, I mean, just to reiterate when shit like that happens, I think, and we've all discuss this but the importance of crew is like like i said i mean it can't just be a regular person you you got to have people that you know like if a medic shows up on a scene and somebody's got a knife through their chest like they're not going to scream and and be like you're going to die yeah yeah they're going to stay calm me like hey you're all right you're right we're just taking care of whether they whether they believe that or not no yeah it's just important for sure yeah and then you know

for me and again i'm i'm bad with like i've got things in my head that i know and i needed to transfer them to Eric and maybe I didn't do that so that's on me. But like the fact that you fell and then you made it all the way down to Crown King afterwards, you're not pulling the plug when you sit down in that chair. If you were able to make that seven more miles or six more miles after the fall, you're going to at least make another six miles coming out of the aid station. So there is no giving up in the chair. You're going to die on your sword out there. And that's just what it is. And as a crew member, you kind of have to understand that. I understand that. But again, I don't know if I transferred that to anybody.

Yeah. But, I mean, you picked up on it. It's like, no, it's, he's going to keep going. Like I said, you got to stay positive and you got to not take anything personal and just know, like, hey, this is, our job is to get this guy going. And you want to go and you have the mindset to do it. So it's like, get you out of the best we can. And at that point, I was like, okay, this next eight station is, we are going to be dialed.

Eric's the meter changed to the 180 after that. Yeah. I was just like, I don't think. That's why you're your crew chief now. I was like, we're going to be there eight hours early with, I'm going to have the paramedics here. I don't care if I don't eat for the next couple days as long as Cam has what he needs at that next aid station. Yeah.

This is the same vacation. But yeah, so we got you up. I got you checked in and got you on your way. Again, as you were leaving, you look back at me and you said your eyes you still couldn't see you. They were still jumping around. I think a cool thing, though, like before you left, you obviously got up, got going. You know, you had all these kids and stuff there that want to see you. And that's what I've noticed, you know, really getting to spend time with you on this trip when I've never like.

Like, you know, I know you, but like getting to be around you is like, you have no matter what the situation, you have such a good demeanor to people that, you know, follow you, kids, inspiration. Like you'll always take a photo with people. You'll always, even in the most stressful situations like that, it's like, you're there high-fiving kids and stuff. And it's like, that's just from a person from the outside looking at. It's like, it's like, it's such a cool thing. Because like, I mean, that made those kids day, year, whatever it is. It's like you made a difference. It's super cool.

Well, I mean, they don't know that I'm hurting. Yeah. So it's not it's not fair to them to I and I didn't even I was out of it I didn't really see them but Billy Yang was standing there and he's like hey he goes camp camp you got some fans there and I so I turned around but without him I might have missed him but it's yeah it's not about it's not all about me in those moments um so and I wonder like there's little things like that in that moment like do those those kids, do you feel motivation from that? Like being in that moment with like those kids, high five, and it's like, okay, I'm going to

get on my horse and get going. No, I mean, I feel pressure anyway. Yeah. You know, so it is, it's a reminder that people care. Yeah. And sometimes that's good because you can't get in your head out there and you feel like, depending on where you're at, like in this, there's a lot ups and downs. If you're in a low spot, you can think nobody cares.

And in fact, people want you to fail. Yeah. And so, like, little moments like that can mean a lot. Yeah, it was awesome. I want to ask you, and this is more into the ethos of it, but it's like, you know, obviously you started all this because of bow hunting. But secondary to that, you just said, like, you know, it's bigger than you. It's just, it's not all about you.

So you have these kids that are inspired, you know, you, you, you, and F, but to me, the way you've handled it, talked about it, been open about it, that's helping people. Super cool. So if that's the secondary part of why you do all this, how could that be considered a failure? You know, if you're the person that has to bear that shield, it might be a terrible walk for you to take, but if you're helping people, that to me is still a win. Yeah.

You know, I mean, I told you afterwards, it's like, you're the guy that's like, you're this tough you got the mindset that's like just push through it be tough grind it out this to me is just as much of a situation for you to grind out than all the physical ones it's just different maybe different than what you're used to the mental side can sometimes be the toughest but again i think that mindset can still help during a situation like this you know yeah um i'm not used to failing yeah i were you know i i work really hard to avoid failing avoid dnfs avoid whatever whatever i'm not great at it um i'm not great at dealing with it uh i'm trying to get better i'm trying to get you know i don't know i ultra's been you know you know

some of the ultra community, I'm not welcome. Yeah. So. But you know, the same thing, too, you said, which I think was a cool thing about this community and experience, is like when you gave that interview the day before, you went out there to race. And you said, you're like, hey, it's, how cool is it that we're here with this group of people? No matter religion, race, all that stuff, it all goes out the window. We're all people and we're all enjoying this and like coming together. And it's like, I don't know, that, that atmosphere and, like, experiencing that.

And, like, seeing you talk about, like, there's just, what a cool, cool thing to be a part of. I mean, Sean Strickland said something similar after his fight. It was like, you know, he realizes that Shemayev has a family, has a country, people that all look up to him. And that kind of gets to him because it's like he's fighting for the same things that Sean's fighting for. And after you go to war with somebody, you can't help but have respect for him. Yeah. And I feel like a similar thing. happens. Yeah, definitely with the competitors out there. There is a bond with, you know, the runners.

It's mostly, I guess, I don't know. It's, for me, I can't speak for anybody else, but for me, when I talked about an interview before we did with a mountain outpost, I think, and, you know, I just said this, like, the ultra so special because we can line up with our heroes the same star line, right you can't go and go through the layup line with lebron james or a koby bryant or you know we can be fans but we're separated yeah and ultra you can be a fan and you're right there with these legends right and maybe down the road you know and we'll talk about this later with you know aging athletes and things like that and different supplements that people might take but uh i'm sure we'll talk about that but it's a it might that might change down the road it might change to where it's like the

olympics where maybe it's only the elites and i think that ultra is really going to lose something special if that happens it might with the gross of the sport that might be a reality but for right now we have the icons say you know we got rachel killian who both won they're in their 30s and you got 70 year old people on the same star line or I'm almost 60. And it's like that is how special is that, right? And the challenge with that is that, you know, if you have Olympic style testing to, like for Olympics,

there's different rules for, as I say, supplements for like a younger athlete doesn't need much. They're 20 and 30 years old. Their bodies in their prime. A 70 year old, 60 year old like me, our bodies deteriorate. So sometimes like if we talk about like these, Olympic drug testing standards, things like that, it's just not going to work for the whole field.

It's just not realistic. Older athletes are aging. They need things that might be banned for Olympic athletes. That's just the way it goes. We're not there yet, but I'm going to talk about it because I have, do I have something to lose? Probably people can take whatever they want from me. I'm playing with house money. I already won.

So if I got to die on my. sword on this thing for somebody else or to prove a point I'm I'm willing to but I'll be the old athlete that still wants to line up with the elites knowing I'm not going to win I'm not going to I'm not going to be on a podium but I want to run and for me it's like you know you know when I can run and with these people it's like I feel I've run with some of the best athletes in the world. As almost 60 years old. It's like, for me, it's my body's, it's old.

It's hurt. But my heart is strong. My brain is strong. My eyes see. And when I'm running with Courtney and I see her ponytail bouncing or I'm running with Rachel. and I see her turn back and smile or with Cole Hocker

Matt Centroitz, gold medal winners, I ran with Killing Korth. I've run with Michael McKnight, all the legends as an old man and that is, it's all I want to do.

So how can I get this broke body to take my heart and soul to experience that with those legends? If I'm hurt, my foot's broke and I'm trying to avoid surgery by alternative medicine and taking a peptide to hopefully like last year I took a peptide to help me heal without surgery and it allows me to experience those moments with these incredible runners, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it.

I don't give a fuck what anybody thinks. I'm not making the fucking Olympics. I'm not winning money. I'm an old bow hunter who has this opportunity to push and test my body and share maybe my like all I wanted to do in this race was run. Catch up with those, you know, we're close to browning when my brain and feet just wouldn't work. And Courtney was four miles up. All I wanted to do, all I've tried to do my entire ultra running career is run with Courtney. And I haven't been able to.

I can in training. And I tell people like, they say, what do you train for? How are you feeling? I'm like, I'm not training for a race. I'm training to run with Courtney just so she doesn't have to wait for me because I just want to share those special moments. And so I just want to be healthy. And like when I, I'm telling you, I'm a freaking pussy right now.

But I don't know if it's from hitting my head, but whatever. All I know is, yeah, I mean, I was feeling strong and I started to get sick. And I told Verstige that I said, hey, I think I need some calories. So I said, I'll catch up because we wanted to run together. I really wanted to go with him. He knows the course so well because he lives there. But I said, I'll catch you up with you. So I tried to get some calories in.

I puked. And I thought, I just told myself. I was probably just too much sugar. So I think I tried a honeysteiger, something, puked. I just couldn't, I couldn't run, you know, been running for 50 years and over 50, and I just couldn't. And I wanted to catch up. I wanted to see, I wanted to catch up with Michael, I wanted to see browning, I wanted to see

Courtney and I just kept falling. You know, I broke this. I got a surgery on that. Dislocated this, got it back in, you know, my shoulder and I just was just was laying there and just hit my head. Like, what? You know, I had to, I felt good. I wanted to suffer. There's more suffering. I just didn't get, didn't get, didn't get what I wanted. And it's hard. It's still hard. So, yeah, just made it to that next aid station and had to pull the plug. I think, you know, something that has hit home with me is,

uh, people say, you know, they pray to, uh, uh, you know, stupid prayers. I want a million dollars. Bring me a million dollars. Or, you know, I want a great body. I want to be ripped. But instead, the prayer needs to be, make me the person, you know, that works out every day.

Make me the person that wants to be healthy. Make me the person that works hard. and for you, you know, you wanted to suffer. So a prayer for suffering. And sometimes I think that gets answered in a way we don't want, but maybe it's a way we need. And I think for me, having never seen, you know, you, DNF like this before, I can't help but think on the backside of all this pain. once you figure out how to handle this, how free will you feel? You know, to run without that weight on your shoulders.

You and I have spent a lot of hard time together, especially on hunts. And the pressure that is built up onto your back that you carry on your shoulders, you know, we talked about it. It's like after that hunting season, I was pissed because people would say must be nice. And I'm like, you guys have no idea. the amount of pressure that you carry. And to me, that pissed me off because I saw it. And so, you know, I can't help but see this situation and think, man, what if Cam can come out

on the other side of this and see that he is not defined by if he wins or loses, but he is defined as the person he is. And I think the person you are is like Eric was saying, is like you turn around and you say hi to those little girls. You give them a high five. You know, I told Eric before we went down there, he's a person. he's gonna be pissed when he comes in the aid station but I promise you when he leaves it he will turn around and say hey good job thank you they gave me a hey bud you know and and to me

that is what defines you not whatever you want to call these so-called failures it's not a failure it's not even close to a failure in my mind um I don't think that makes it any easier but to me it does help me kind of grasp the situation um I don't know I I don't know I don't, I don't, I really don't look at it as a failure. I know it's hard and I know it sucks. I know how hard you work at these things. That's the other thing too is like, and people can call me, say I'm funny pot or whatever because I work for you and I lie or whatever.

It's like you guys, you don't get it. They have no idea. And getting to see behind the scenes of you is. For me, I mean, you know, people joke is like, oh, James is the proof that being surrounded by greatness doesn't always amount to anything. but I promise you I would have never run a 50K if I didn't come here to work for you. You know, I can count. There's too many rooms to count on both hands that I've been in that I have no business and being in,

but that you graciously offered me an opportunity to be in those rooms. So I hate to see you being so hard on yourself. I know that's why you're successful, but I think there's also a silver lining in it. Yeah, maybe. One of the hardest parts of hunting is glassing big country to find animals you know are there. That's why I run Sig Sauer Zulu imaging stabilizing binoculars when I'm covering a lot of ground and need to see everything. These binoes are a complete game changer. After long climbs, when your heart rates up and your hands aren't steady, shaky glass makes it hard to stay locked in.

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when you were on the road you were throwing down some insane miles and we all were like holy shit you know we were all saying you're not human I mean because I've seen you get pissed and run and it's like holy fuck he is

on a tear you know I think uh oh that's kind of the whole thing we were all kind of debriefing afterwards and then we're like looking and we're like I'm like no we got to get back to our van and swap like he's gonna beat me to press

Scott and I've just made a promise that I will never let this man down again. You have these hamburgers. I had a second, 20 hamburgers set up for the next spot. But like, we were ripping in the van, just looking at your time. James called me when I was driving.

He's like, are you seeing this right now? I'm like, dude, this guy is like not human. Yeah, I was, I learned to catch the legends. Couldn't. But I think that's, I think you're missing, you know, you're a legend. Yeah. And I think it's cool that, you know,

everybody has somebody they look up to. But I don't know. I hope that you can eventually see the opportunity you were given to teach people, you know, how to walk through these moments. Because, I mean, I'm not going to speak for anybody, but Max has now had two really hard coca donas. And there's no doubt in my mind that, you know, he's looking to you for how does Cam handle this? and there's countless people that do that. So I don't know. I'm looking to you.

I'm learning from you and how you handle a situation like this. I don't know. Yeah. It's hard, but. I feel bad for Max. He's got so much talent. And just these races,

these multi-day races are, they're, I don't know what they are. I don't know what they are. They're, I mean, I saw this like elite ultra runner saying like these aren't even like shouldn't be count as ultra races because they're not even running or so it's like even people in the space don't even get it you know and it's there I don't know what they are there they're a journey and experience a personal awakening in some way and a race because it's a race there's a winner

there's but it's like if i just i mean this changes people's lives you know i mean if you think of so you see rachel she came in 56 hours it's everywhere it's espn a bc she's getting all the flowers and it's incredible and then you see the very last person come in wayne amo and same race first and last days and days apart, you know, five and a half days and she was like two and a half days, whatever it was. But what he, his experience in that race, people will be talking about for the rest of his life. So that's to me, that's what I want to try to protect. When I say, I'll take the fall for this, you know, if we talk about this, you know, if these guys are on TRT or taking a

peptide or whatever. If it protects and allows people like Wayne Amo, you know, I don't know what, but I'm just, he's older, he's 57. So he's, he's close to my age. And I don't want to take the opportunity to experience races like Koko Dona away from people like him just because we want to protect this elite field, right, or this elite competition. Because it is about them, yes, it is. And I love all them and I respect them and I want them to be successful. But it's about so much more than that too. And I want to also honor and respect that. So it's just incredible what this race offers. I have two main thoughts about that. And we might as well get into it now. But there's two things. So one would be the people that, you know, want to test. My question would be why. And if you can

answer that, then why aren't we testing local marathons, local races, everybody, right? And then my second question would be, what do the elites of these races think? And what is their take on it? And to me, I think there would be a very clear answer. I'm not sure. I mean, you know, the guy who, so I'll just say, there's somebody trying to cancel me. There's people, you know, there's people trying to cancel me in hunting too. I mean, it's just the way it goes.

And let me say this too. I got to get this out. I'm not complaining. I've been so blessed and so lucky with these opportunities, even to race Kocodona. I've been welcome there. I can't complain. Yes, people don't like me. Part of that is my fault.

I put pressure on people to make a decision. Like I said, I call people pussies. I say they're fucked whatever. It makes people either I love them or I hate them. So it's my fault. I can't sit here and say I'm a victim. I'm not a victim. I'm blessed.

I'm lucky. And so, but whatever. So this guy's trying to cancel me. And let me just say something. I'm not going to say anything bad about anyone. This guy doesn't like me. So, but he didn't like me before any of this because we're just different. He's liberal, vegan, whatever.

Fine. I don't give a. But that was enough for him. him to start talking shit about me years ago and talk shit about my son. So he doesn't like my family. And now it's just like if he gets a reason, then he can run with it. Right. So I'm not a liar. I say I've said many times what I what I've done, what I've, you know, I've like he has this old post from 15 years ago, some over the counter supplements that I used from G&C because I was just trying to, I was trying to, hey, let's get big. Legal over the counter.

or whatever, probably not legal for Olympic-style testing, but I'm not a fucking Olympian, right? So anyway, has this thing from 15 years ago, still on my website, I don't, I'm not hiding anything. I've said I go to Ways to Well, I've got stem cells. I said I tried to, you know, the peptides of my, to fix my broken foot instead of surgery. I've been very open about everything.

I've tried, back in the day, there was like some deer antwer spray. I mean, and that was supposed to somehow make you, you more muscular. Straight off the boat from China. None of that shit actually works, but you sprayed on your tongue. I did have a boner that lasted for three days.

Yeah, yeah. Can I get some? I've tried, I mean, all legal. And like, even in this case, like this peptide or whatever or the TR, I'll just say something about TRT. I know like half, probably half the fields on it out there

because it's an aging. And the women need estrogen. men need testosterone women might eat testosterone but whatever it's like hey if they're healthy and they can experience a life changing event

I'm down these people aren't winning shit anyway it's a I also feel like people really underestimate at the end of the day you still have to go run

2506 miles it doesn't matter you could give me everything you want and I am like taking it you know 80 miles I just I really don't get the The why, because why hasn't he picked on anybody else that's finishing in the same, you know? It's just, it's just my family. He just doesn't like us.

Well, exactly, which to me, it just basically, I mean, makes the argument invalid. No, there's an argument, but here's what I'll say. So he was elite. I mean, he's a little older now. But I will say, I, when I looked up his Wikipedia today, great runner, freaking stud. way better than me, way better. I mean, not even in that. I'm not, okay, why he goes after me, I'm old.

And like, he calls Truett Slow. So if True is slow, true around 225, 22, whatever, 229 at CIM, I ran at 239 at Eugene. If True is slow, why are you even talking about me? I'm some old man that's 10 minutes slower than that. So, but here's what I'll know about elites. what I'll say about elites. If you're going for the Olympics, some of the worst tragedies, I think, are like women who compete clean. Sometimes these other countries aren't clean. And they don't figure it out for like 12 years. They miss their opportunity on the podium to get recognized,

you know, with an Olympic medal. And 12 years later, oh, yeah, here, the other people that beat you pop hot, here's your medal. That sucks. Okay. I don't want that. I want that. I want, I do want the Olympics to be clean. I want everybody to be in a level playing field. I don't know if it ever can be, but that's what I want. So that's where this guy's coming from because that's his background, which I totally get and respect. I'm on board.

Okay. He's around 40. Tell me what you think when you get to be 60. Okay? And I was listening to like even this track podcast, they're talking about me and all this shit. And they're saying something like, you know, obviously is different. They're saying,

it's kind of different for elites as opposed to somebody, you know, a hobby jogger is what I am. You know, I'm slow. So it's different. But they were saying like, well, don't say that, you know,

keep hammering and, you know, just got to work harder and quit being a pussy and then, you know, take peptide. There's like, just get some more rest and eat better. I'm like, oh, sleep a little longer.

All of a sudden, I'm going to, 60, but I'm going to feel like I'm 25 because I got an extra hour of sleep. What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know what? An aging athlete goes through? No, because you haven't done it. You're 30.

And also, what does that have to do with the mindset? It doesn't. It's like, all of that hard work doesn't count because you took a peptide. A f***ing. It's like caught. And, oh, I asked, so when I took that peptide for my foot, I was like, I used to like deer or spray. I don't give a take it. Oh, this makes me bigger. Cool. I'll try it. But now I'm not like that. So I asked, like last year when I was trying to figure out my foot, because they were saying it was going to be two

surgeries. And also they're saying that there's no guarantee my foot's going to be exactly the same afterwards. You know, it's like, and I have good running form. I don't want to fuck up anything. I can, I can run. So I'm like, I'm going to be out for weeks with a surgery. And it might not ever be the same. If I can just deal with pain, I can run on it right now. I didn't miss a fucking day. I had a broken foot the whole time. I had a broken foot for a year that hurt every step I took. But to me, it was better to be able to protect my ability to run as opposed to who knows what for being off six weeks and it might not be the same.

So I'm like, no, I'm not an Olympian. I'm a fucking old man. If this shit might work and save me from surgery, I'm going to try it. Why wouldn't I? What the fuck? I don't have USA on my jersey. I'm not I'm not even on I've never been on track club I've never ran a marathon to us 32 what are we talking about with this WADA testing and all this shit so anyway I asked about this

I asked about peptides back in the day and um I said because one of the thing that the guy who's trying to get me canceled is saying it's like these peptides they don't know they haven't been tested on humans so they could be dangerous right and And I'm like, so I asked, you know, my guy about this is a year ago, but that's what this, this guy who's trying to cancel me is saying right now. And it, that's a, rings a little hollow because he also took the vaccine and got maybe he was in emergency, I'm glad he didn't die, but he had a serious medical event after that. So you took a vaccine that almost killed you.

or could have killed you, maybe it was related and they didn't test vaccines on anybody. They just made it mandatory. And you fucking took it. And peddled it. And that's like the liberal, the woke, liberal, vegan,

they do what they're told, right? I don't. People like me, oh wait, you're telling me to do something? How about f*** off? I don't like people telling me what to do. I didn't take it. So I'm glad he's healthy, but don't use the safety because it hasn't been tested on a peptide.

That's not going to kill anybody. When you took a vaccine that killed many people, no questions asked. And you had to pay the price, which, again, I'm glad you're okay. But that argument rings hollow, as I said. So anyway, I asked about a year ago about this. And it says there's currently zero human data showing. Point BPC causes cancer. People say that because BPC may help promote angiogenesis,

which is literally just a body forming new blood vessels as part of healing and recovery. If we're gonna use that logic, then exercise causes cancer too because exercise also promotes angiogenesis. The real conversation, you know, whatever. So anyway, point is there hasn't been a lot of tests. It is a newer peptide. people whether it works or not i don't know i didn't have surgery um i don't know if it helped me

but i didn't have to have the two surgeries so um yeah point is it's like i'm gonna try that because i have no reason not to i'm not like i said i'm not a professional elite athlete i i i really i don't even get why this is necessary because if i took bpc 157 i don't I'm a purist and my body is my temple. I would take it tomorrow. Well, it's got like a two hour half life. So the shit is not around very long. No, that's really quick.

Either way, it's like, I don't know. If it does anything, it better do it quick. But if I took it and I sit here and I claim to take it, I mean, are we going to grill me as much? Or is it just because you have a lot of success and some people are jealous of that? or I mean you could go the route of like okay you have a lot of ears social media people look up to you but not once have you ever been like I take this you guys should take this and here's my here's like I'm gonna make a million dollars whatever you know it's like no you just say you're just honest I take it this

is what hopefully it helps I don't I'm not really sure if it's helping or whatever so I don't get why you even have to answer for this I'm honestly dumbfounded It's I mean again I'm not going to complain but I have a name I'm a target out there when he mentions me there's he gets more play on his on his website or on his Instagram whatever the I saw he was on a podcast talking about it already so it's like it's good for business for him yeah yeah but he'll never admit that you know I mean I it all started because he just doesn't like me and truit exactly so everything else is you can say whatever reason beyond that and you've never you've never met this guy no I don't know yeah I don't

know it's you know it's uh I mean and also the thing is to if I wouldn't have ran a 239 at Eugene if I'd around a three hour nobody'd give a it was just because that time was so good And it was kind of close to his time, you know, his recent time. And I'm old and he's not and he's elite and I'm not. I'm a bow hunter and some redneck dip shit. And maybe that makes him feel whatever. I don't know. I can't get into people's head.

Again, I'm not going to complain. It's just the way it goes. I'm a target. I understand that. I've been a target for a long time. And that's never going to change. Until they can take me out, I'm going to have people talking. talking shit yeah which I don't know that that sucks I get so tired of seeing shit like

it's just the nature of the business it's like I'm in I'm in very competitive hunting is very competitive lots of egos running is the same and yeah I don't know I mean obviously with shit talkers we do a fair amount of shit talking but it's all love Number one. Yeah. You know, number two, it's like, okay, let's take the buff runner, for example. You know, we questioned his 15-day, 1,000 miles. I mean, he finished it, and it's insanely impressive.

And I left a comment, and I message back and forth with him. I mean, we're good. You know, it's not like we're just going out there and talking actual shit about these people ruining their career is like, no, it's, you know. So I don't get that. I don't even know why anybody it's gotten traction to be honest but I don't know people love negativity and drama I mean so like I said I can't it's not going to go away I'm all I'm going to do is be honest about it I've been honest anytime anybody asked me anything I don't

lie I don't I I don't have anything to hide so again I'm an aging athlete I'm trying to you know, as I said, my dad died when he was 62. I'm not that far from it. So if I can do anything possible to continue to live the life I dream of running in the mounds, I'm going to. If it knocks me out of the Olympics, Ah, shoot. Dang it. I mean.

And I guess in his world, you know, he would prefer that you aren't healthy. you know, you're not doing everything to optimize your body. Did he want me to get surgery and my running be over? Would that be better? I guess when you, you know, get older, you should just kind of be frail and be afraid to walk outside and have to use a walker.

I mean, these, I don't know, it's like these races are, I think the superpower on the race is to tell you the truth is estrogen. I mean, these women are so, good at these multi-day. I got to say, like, if you look at the finish line, and I think estrogen actually is, I wouldn't be surprised this is going to sound crazy.

If some of the elites, if they wanted to do something crazy, took estrogen. Because that shit, I'm talking about men, you look at the women. And maybe it's, I don't know if it's like, I don't know if it's body size. efficiency, but you look at Rachel, Courtney, Meg Eckert was third, how they came in compared to the guys.

The guys are like zombies, Night of Living Dead. The women come in, Rachel comes in sprinting. So these women, whatever it is, they are so, it's a weird sample size, one race, but I've thought this for a long time that women are the superior. athlete at multi-day. And I think they're showing that. And it's incredible. And I love it. I love this.

And oh, I wanted to say one other thing, too, about, you know, I mentioned, you know, the guy turned to cancel me. He's liberal and woke and all this stuff. I'm great friends with people that feel exactly like him. Like the girls that I love are very liberal, liberal and just ultra-running freaks. And I'm not best friends with them. I mean, I'm their best friend. They're my best friend.

I'm probably not theirs, but I love them. So I don't give up about your politics. I don't care what you eat. I mean, I had this, I got this girl coming on, Aaron Tone. She's such a freak. And I think she did the Nolan's 14 in high heels. That's disgusting. Yeah, she is incredible.

But she said, hey, I'm a plant-based athlete. don't really get hunting. I'm like, I said, hey, you're a badass. That's awesome. I go, this is it all matters. I said, I don't care what you eat. I said, I love badasses. And even more past that is you like to show people that don't understand hunting. Yeah, I got it. I'm all about it. So I don't know, this, this tribalism, they, they, you know, and negativity and gotcha and, um, these posts just talking shit. It's just like, I just hate that part of it because it's such a beautiful and they might say I'm toxic and I'm the problem and if I could be out of the sport, the sport would be better and maybe they're right.

Yeah, I mean about the estrogen thing, if I show up to my next ultra with tits, mind your business. I do. I looked up estrogen like maybe someone needs a fact check me, but I believe women have more testosterone than men. They just also have estrogen. Oh, really? I think so. Yeah.

Well, I mean, here's what I know. I don't take testosterone. I don't think it helps me in ultras. Yeah. I mean, I think you run hotter. I think you are, you burn more calories. I think your heart rate's up. And I don't think it's an advantage.

Everything you don't want in all. On multi-day, if it's not speed and power and push, it, which that's not what multi-day 200s are, I don't think, I don't use it. That's very wrong, by the way. I was wrong. Oh. Men have 10 to 20 times more, but they do obviously have testosterone, too. So maybe it is estrogen. Well, I want to, I can't find it now. I mean, women have 10 to 20 times more than me, but you're average man. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's just, it's kind of fascinating didn't think about and wonder about and yeah estrogen tends to increase fat oxidation and spare

glycogen in long duration efforts that can improve efficiency and delay fatigue i'm telling you estrogen recover it may reduce muscle damage and inflammation after endurance training and that's what you see at the end of these races they're not damaged like they like the men that's interesting i know i think their estrogen can improve blood vessel dilation and circulation in some people. It'd be interesting to see if someone did take it. And I'm not saying someone should. Okay. So stop the doping claims. But if they did, if after the race, like if a male athlete took it, if after the race his estrogen levels would drop, I don't know, like it would get used up and then obviously comes off of it. Because there are very real side effects of a man taking estrogen.

Oh, yeah. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, just know that just for physical mental health for depression getting your hormone you know your hormones change you know if you're 20 and 30 balls out yeah test it over a thousand all good when you get older or yeah it's not throwing numbers out there when you get older shit changes and you need i mean like i said for mental health sometimes you need testosterone and estrogen I don't want to take that away from those people who want to get out there and enjoy the mounds at an advanced age. And we shouldn't. It's not right.

No. This should be for everybody. It should be inclusive, right? So if we're saying, like, unless you're elite that can qualify under this Olympic drug testing standards, you're not invited. That's wrong. I don't agree. There's no reason for that. No.

If you want to just protect the elites and the podiums and the money, great. Then do it for them. That sounds like a good compromise to me, like it is done in every other stuff. sport ever is test the elites or put your name into the pot to say, hey, I want to be on the podium or I want to win money. Yeah. You got to subject yourself to testing. And this guy is also saying, like, it's not fair for age groupers because I took this peptide. If I win my age group, it's like, I don't give a fuck about my age group. What are you talking about? I've never stayed around and got an award. Have you been with me a racist? Have I ever stayed around to get an age

group award? Usually someone has to track you down and be like, hey, do you want this? And you're like, No, and I don't care. I'm like, I'm running for myself, okay? And people can say, oh, you're lying. You're full of shit. Okay? But I don't care. I mean, last year of Kokodona, I came in with Ryan Coons and I said, go ahead, cross before me.

I don't give a fuck. It's not about beating people for me. It's about the experience. It's about growing from that. It's about running with the little native boy that came, Orion who came with me. And I just, it kills me that I didn't see him this year because I FNFed and he was waiting for me. And it's like, that's what matters to me. Not my fucking time, my timer, my podium or, or, I mean, what are you talking about?

And if your time does matter, it's because you just want to best yourself. You just want to get better yourself. It has nothing to do with who you're racing against, you know? It's like, and again, even if it did, I still don't think it would matter. I don't know. You know, unless you were like, hey, I want to run for the Olympic, which I would love for ultras to be in the Olympics. Me too.

And if that's the case, then, yeah, test the elites. And if I ever did like an official master's whatever, of course I would do everything perfect. Yeah. And if you test me now, I think you'd be surprised how she's my numbers off. It's like, it's not impressive. I think I usually after these races, I have a, I think I have a doctor's appointment scheduled and I get labs just to see what my liver and kidneys do because there's a lot of of damage in these races from that and I mean you would not be you would not be impressed well I remember

when we had Andy Galpin on and you had just had a blood panel done and he was like yikes I was like I'm not good I'm fucking old yeah I'm just trying to do the best I can it's like I don't think people understand that's how I live it's like if somebody said if I was going to go run Piscuit today which I did did two summers is beautiful over there I loved it they said hey, either you can go run Piscay, and after you do, that's you're dead, or you can live as long, you know, for years, but you can never run again. I'd be like, I can see ya. I'm heading to the mountain.

I mean, it's what I, it's what gives me life. And it's like, that's all I'm trying to protect. It's like, just let me live. And. Yeah. That's why it doesn't make any sense to me. I don't know. I really.

I guess I'm dumb. I think like here's, it does mean it, I don't, you know, I feel ostracides from hunting most of time. Now I feel, I mean, there's a lot of people in Ultra who do accept me. But this was, it's sucked to deal with. And it's probably not over this, you know, he's, he's, he's getting a lot of attention. so it's all good but uh i did um it means it means a lot to me what like the people who i respect and looked up to think so i did text some people before i went to the race and i just said hey listen

here's what's going on um you know i've uh i got somebody that's trying to cancel me and get me out of the race and and i asked the people who i respect their legends in the sport i said you know what do you think and they they felt like you know what you were saying so it's like no come race yeah come race and it's like so but i i do care i mean i'm trying to do the right thing i'm not i'm not trying to hide anything i think that's important to highlight too is i mean you texted people also because you didn't want to be this big drama distraction i don't their performances no they they deserve the attention yeah and uh like i I just, if I can get rub elbows with them and just gain from their, you know, their excellence in some way with a mindset or something, then I feel like I won.

And I just, I just want that opportunity. And I feel like people want to take it from me or people like me. I guess. Well, we could talk a little bit about going forward. Okay. about the excitement What? Of, you know, the possibilities of, you know,

next year or other races as Eric with crew chief. Oh, I'll probably get canceled. But first of all, I got to get surgery on this. I don't know if it's tomorrow, but on that fall, I broke that and it pulled the ligament or the ligament, pulled the bone off. You have to go lefty for a while. Yeah.

So I got to. I got to see. I mean, I got a bear hunt coming. up so we got to get this shit figured out but um for if i don't get canceled um yeah i'm i'm excited about the potential i felt so i ran 60 some miles and felt really good until i couldn't my brain wouldn't work but and then you know with this marathon finally had an actual marathon training block and i saw what i what is capable there because you know you know you know what you're Here's another, this is part of also being a broken old man.

But when I, if I do, I don't have goals really when I go in, but after I race and I'm like looking at the numbers. And then I'm like, oh, shit. So you get in there, you ask AI, oh, if I ran a 239 at 58, what could I run in my prime? And so they're saying like, you know, 218 to 222, which for me in my prime, 218, 222, that's Olympic trials. I would have made the Olympic trials. So it's like, it's like, it's just fun to play these guys.

games when you get these times back and just like what does that mean and so it did kind of pump me up for like what if i actually did a true training block because i didn't i did a little bit more than i've ever done but that makes me excited if we can get this this the crew nailed down for these multi-days um and i'm fit and i'm healthy oh man yeah if you hate to see it now you're really going to hate to see it next year yeah so get your thoughts ready yeah i would really really like to cause the keyboard warriors a lot of issues. That'd be great. I think that's what we'll do.

I don't know. I feel like a fuck. I don't know why I get emotional about this. I just like, and I don't know if it's because of what happened, but this shit means, I can't tell you what this means to me. This is my life.

It's like, it's not bow hunting. That's how I make my money. And that's how I, that's what's driven me. But I also run my whole life. And these people, I just love these people in this community. And it's like, so when it feels like it's threatened,

when I'm not feeling like a pussy right now, I feel like I want to cause some damage. I like to see the highs and the lows. It's real. I mean, that's, you know, got to have the weather event and then some emotion. Yeah, I guess. That adds to the story. I guess.

I personally would never cry. You know that. Yeah, I know you wouldn't. I've never tried. I know you wouldn't, but no, we got big plans for next year. We might build a custom van and give it away. Afterwards, that was Eric's idea, I think. But no, if I can keep my body healthy and I feel really good right now, other than my legs are good.

It's my, all this, where I got hurt falling so many times. But if I can stay healthy, oh, shit, dude, I think we can be on one next year. To see your mileage after you had the head injury and took off in those miles you were putting in, with your noggin all bruised up is like, I mean, it's so inspiring to next year. Like, oh, what if he's in good shape? Yeah. Like, what could he actually do?

I know. And not only he's in good shape, we know what we're doing. Yeah. And it's like, he comes in and it's a pit stop. I mean, boom, boom, boom, everything's dialed out. And we get you going. It's like, it could be, I mean, you look at the other teams. And as I said, looking at that, and I think there was just a YouTube video

went on that Rachel put on showing like their process of how they did stuff. And you're just like. Is that precision? Yeah, you're like, they're so dialed in. And it's like. I mean, can we take it even to the next? Like, there's just, you're seeing that stuff. Shut of a fucking scientist with her.

Yeah, they sit down and it's like she just puts her hands up, and boom, she's off. And you're like, if we could do that, man. I love to see. This could be cool. It's an experiment, you know? Yeah, I love to see her do so well. Yeah, and I think, you know, we talked about it too,

but you coming in, you running. I mean, we wanted to get to a point where you are the athlete, you're just running. Yeah. That's all you've got to worry about and you're wasting no energy thinking about anything else because you know you're going to come in, get what you need. and get right back out.

Yeah. And, you know, I think that's just fun. Whether people want to hate on it or not, who cares? Well, that's like we were saying, you know, when I originally came, I'm like, oh, vacation, this is it going to be fun? It's like, no. In these races, the fun is like getting you in, getting you out, like, staying up all night, having those struggles, but, like, achieving, that's the fun, you know?

And it's like, man, I want to do that next year. Like, I want to be right through this with them all the way and, like, get it done right. Yeah. Like, you know, if you can beat your time by X amount, it's like, what we did. worked like that all came together and that works shoot maybe the next athletes that are top like they can take from this to better their times and just yeah it's like what a transformation to this world that you could do and like you have the ability to do that which is so cool because not a lot of people can't Eric's gonna be the first guy in ultra to be like uh you know how like the pit chiefs

yeah I'll be like crews go to like different teams Ricky carbichael's mechanic you know there's it's going to be Eric for ultras yeah yeah no it's a lot of potential a lot of excitement it's just I wish I could be more excited now. It's like, because I feel beat up, but with no completion. It's like, I like feeling beat up and like ruined if I achieve my goal. So it feels doesn't, it feels empty right now. I feel beat up without the, without the win. It's not, I'm not winning anything, but out the completion.

Careful with that. Yeah. I know. I know. I don't want to make anybody upset. Yeah. I don't know. I just think all that stuff like all this going on is a person from the outside that doesn't

follow the running world and like just knows you and all my friends same thing we love you for who you are and like you d and fing and the possibility to come back is like your story is what we follow you know we just we all love that all this peptide shit like i had no clue that was even going on majority of people not only don't know don't care because we love cam haines for who he is and the positivity you bring to the world is so much more than one dude thumbing away you know yeah Like, big whoop-dy-do. And I'm not trying to, I'm just trying to be healthy. I'm not trying to like win money.

I'm not trying to like take somebody's spot on a team. I'm not doing any of that shit. Nope. One thumb on his keyboard, the other one in his ass. See, I'm not saying anything. I am. Celebrity box. I was typing in the night.

Then I had time. Oh, yeah. I think you've got to say Wada. I think you got to say your joke. Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, it's If he keeps going, I'll find out.

He has no idea what's coming. It's fine. I mean, I, there's, you know, not everybody's going to love you. It doesn't matter who you are. And so it's, I mean, if, if I wasn't dealing with him and be somebody else. Yeah. And that's just the way it goes.

All I can do is like be honest, um, share my heart. And if that's not good enough for you, that I can't I can't change it I can't fix it if for some reason I can't run because of you know whatever I mean okay I mean I can still I can go run every hey I don't give a shit I haven't I haven't run a marathon and I didn't even run one last year so I like it's been years and I do like one old last year I did two ultramarathons but I haven't been doing any so it's like you can't stop me from running I'm gonna fun yeah

I just, you know, it's just weird. It's just, I don't know, I don't know why I'm such a threat, but that's the way it goes. Because you tell it like it is, you know. It's all good. Here's what I do know. I think we got somebody were taking on our bear hunt. Really? Who?

Really? I can't. I don't. That quick of a turnaround? I don't want to say on here. Yeah. That would be sick. Yeah.

So anyway, stay tuned. Did we have anything else on the list? No, that was it. Yeah. If Eric doesn't want to make his Wada joke. I do want to say props to Ara Vippa, Jamil, Corey, his whole team, what they're doing with Ultra is nuts, dude.

It's they know how to put on a show. It's like the Super Bowl down there, and everyone is just wound up and excited. And it's, you know, these races are, it's not just all funny games, you know, that we had, a runner die and it's terrible and it's a terrible tragedy um and i i want to respect them and uh you know i'm so sorry for their family and and for their loss um i can't imagine that was like a kind of a

black cloud over the event but aside from that there's so much goodwill and love down there and to see you know there's a lot of people critical of wayne amo coming in at the end too but i saw interview with him afterwards and he looked great um so much respect i want to have him on the pot i i sent him a message or i commented and said i'd love to talk to you about your race um so just being there and being part of that um it was just incredible and i got so happy for their success so um what they're doing and providing this opportunity for ultra runners out there and it changes people's lives is so special so I know they go they're criticized as well I mean they're criticized for many different reasons and they have to weather a lot and they still they do it with professionalism

and you would never know it because the events just go off without a hitch it was it was so cool yeah you know and to see the live feed and stuff like they do this year and you know you'd mention this the car which I think it's so unlike any other sport is like you have so many different personalities you know we had a character Bowhunter running. You have Courtney, you have this, you know, short little blonde girl who's winning the whole thing. And it's just like, man, everyone kind of gets a favorite runner, like, can attach. And to be able to life read and over days, like, watch it. I mean, I was just checking the feed nonstop. It's like, this is so cool. It is. It's, uh, it's a, it's a pretty

special. And then even just the day before seeing everybody. That was so fun. Yeah. I mean, I probably shouldn't have been standing in the sun for hours. Guys on me. You know, we'll get you. I should have a fucking umbrella. Next year. But, yeah. But, yeah. Yeah, it's special. I feel very lucky to be involved. I ran my first ultra in 2005, and it's been, you know, 21 years of grinding. But I feel like I could still get better.

So that's exciting. Yeah, it's cool news. All right. Well, that's it. Thank you guys. I mean, wanted to have you guys here. I appreciate everything you did down there, and I'm excited for the future. And I think we can kick some ass.

For sure. Yeah. Appreciate you. guys thank you all right keep hammering guys