Cameron Hanes - Keep Hammering Collective - KHC 207 - Do Hard Things: 22 Conversations to Help You Become Undeniable

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

We’ve pulled clips from 22 of our most viewed guests' conversations to bring you their experiences and advice on how they make themselves undeniable in life.  Follow along: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cameronrhanes Twitter: https://twitter.com/cameronhanes Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/camhanes/ Website: https://www.cameronhanes.com Timestamps: 00:00:00 – Intro: Undeniable Guests 00:01:37 – Aaron Rodgers 00:04:39 – Andrew Huberman 00:07:55 – Chris Williamson 00:13:25 – Courtney Dauwalter 00:17:08 – Evan Hafer 00:21:03 – Kip Fulks 00:24:30 – Ken Rideout 00:25:12 – Levi Morgan 00:27:01 – Michael Chandler 00:34:03 – Ad Break (Ketone IQ & ALP) 00:35:48 – Nick Bare 00:38:16 – Remi Warren 00:41:23 – Andy Glaze 00:43:50 – Andy Stumpf 00:46:51 – Brian Deegan 00:50:26 – Craig Francis 00:59:58 – Dr. Andy Galpin 01:03:05 – Kilian Korth 01:07:37 – Max Jolliffe 01:10:44 – Rachel Entrekin 01:13:48 – Truett Hanes 01:18:00 – Jelly Roll Thank you to our sponsors: Ketone IQ: https://www.ketone.com/Cam use code CAM for 30% off your first subscription ALP: https://alppouch.com/ use code CAM for 10% off your first order LMNT: Visit https://drinklmnt.com/cam for a free sample pack with any purchase Hoyt: http://bit.ly/3Zdamyv use code CAM for 10% off MTN OPS Supplements: https://mtnops.com/ Use code CAM for 20% off & Free Shipping Grizzly Coolers: https://www.grizzlycoolers.com/ use code KEEPHAMMERING for 15% off

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And that, you know, like, shine a spotlight on these interesting, very successful in their own way, all of them different. But they all have, like, a lot of commonalities, too, when you start peeling back some work ethic, some like, they work their ass off. Innovators, risk takers. Believe in themselves. Believe in themselves. A little bit of self-promotion. even though that can be an odd thing. Yeah.

You see a lot of commonalities. They're just all going about it in a really different way. Yeah. Most of them are just, they have this, whether it's quiet or loud, but this belief in themselves. Because if you don't believe in yourself,

as the cliche goes, how could anybody else believe in you? Right? So they believe in themselves, whether they say it or not. You know, you know, Courtney kind of undersells herself, but

I know she believes in her heart what she can do. Yeah, she has a very humble demeanor. Some people very loud, it's great. They believe in themselves and they're going to shout it from the rooftop. But the point is, it's like they're working their ass off to earn this belief in themselves and then they're just putting it out there. And what I've learned is from these outliers and you included is like you surround yourself with people like that.

You can't help a fucking win. I think in general, you know, if you've been able to do some at a high level in your vocation, you know how hard it is to get to that point. And I think it gives you a keen interest and affection for mastery in other fields. And so I'm always just fascinated by other people who do things at a high level, who have figured out how to master a skill or multiple skills. and just when I, you know, when Joe gave me information and I did a big Instagram search of you and with you, Paige, just was so impressed by the work that you've done, your mastery of this, and your willingness to share this with other people,

and to create a platform to tell great stories. So for me, I just have so much respect because I know, what it takes to be great at what I do. And it's the same focus in anything else. Like we're just talking about down at the, at the, at the, at the range, like when you're great at something, you think, oh, I can just pick this shit up and just be amazing. Yeah. It takes like, like Ladawell says, it takes like 10,000 hours to master something.

Right. And so it just gives you such a keen respect for someone who spent the time to become a master or something. And I think there's something just beautiful about that in life. And we all have that inside us in some way. And I think some people have just, it's untapped. You know, they've even given up on a dream or got caught in the rat race. But to be able to meet you and to see what you're passionate about,

when somebody's passionate about something to is so inspiring. Just, you know, just talking to Joe and listen to his podcast all the time and seeing how much he loves hunting and bow hunting especially. And, you know, listening to him to call an MMA fight, even if you're not a fan, just like the excitement and the fun that him and D.C. have It's just like it kind of brings you into it. You're like, oh man, like to see that passion for something, it just inspires you to like want to learn more about it, I think for me,

and especially. I like having outliers here because I feel like I can learn from an outlier just to your point about somebody who has, they stand out in whatever feel they do for whatever reason, I can learn from somebody like that. You know, it doesn't really matter what the thing is. It's just how they've poured themselves into it. And it's actually how Joe found me.

Same way. He was what he loves watching YouTube still does, but he was watching me carry this rock up this mountain. Yeah. And he's like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? I mean, he's just carrying this big rock up a mountain. And then he's like, oh, watching me shoot the bow. And so in 2014 he sent this, he tweeted out, said, hey, Cameron Haynes, you want to come to L.A. and talk about training and bow hunting. And that was it. You know, and then, but it was that that same, what you just kind of alluded to is that passion for whatever, whatever it is, somebody pours themselves into it, it's hard to ignore. Yeah. The amazing thing about the human brain is that we can think about the past, the present,

or the future, or a combination of past and present or present and future. It's hard to think about all three at once. Right. But, you know, I think we imagine that, and you hear that people, you know, they focus too much on the future, future tripping, future. I don't think we do that as much as people think. I think we are rarely thinking about the future as much as people claim. And I think it's rare that we are fully present.

I think we tend to think about the past a lot. Too much? Too much. I mean, if you think about it, the best life is to remember the past if you need to, but to have the future pull you forward. And to be present in each day. I mean, I really believe that the unit of the day is the functional unit to really, you know, anchor oneself.

do the sunrise, the sunset, sleep at night. What are you going to accomplish that day? Maybe even need to divide the day into thirds, but at least the unit of the day. And then the unit of the week, you know, is not a coincidence and that we follow that. And but, you know, the moment you start trying to think about what you're going to do for more than a week,

maybe something you're going to do down the line, you put it on the calendar, but you can't really impact things out that far, except what you do right now. Yeah. So I love, you know, the keep hammering slogan, mantra, whatever you want to call it, law of nature for you. So applies because it's, it's that incessant.

Like now, now, now. You want to be better next year? You know, now. What are you going to do today? And so I think archery clearly brings you into the moment. There's no question. I feel the only thing that's ever, you know, not the only thing, but something that also brings me right into the moment is when I do my solo podcast.

It's always just me and Rob in the room. Right. When I think about what I need to accomplish at the beginning, I'm like, I don't know how I'm going to do this. I always allow myself four pages of one-sided notes, no teleprompter, despite what people say. And then right as we start, I'm looking at the little bead in the camera, and I always just think, my God, I don't know what to do. And then you just, you start segmenting. Yeah. Do the intro.

Do this. Do this. Do this. When you hit the end, you're like, well, that's how you do it. You break it down. It's over the how to eat the elephant one bite at a time. So I think with archery, I also loved that, I love the sequence of steps is so fixed. I loved that. Yeah, but like knocking the arrow. Just putting the arrow in, you know, I heard, you know, you dry fire at once, you destroy the bro.

Great. I love rules. Right. Because it's like, there you go. I'm never going to drive. So I was really slow, as you notice. I'm like checking every time. I love that the, like the details and how those matter.

But I love it when there's a fixed sequence. because I do believe that you can break things down into a sequence, well then you can get better at each piece and each piece getting better will help you improve. But I know at the end of the day, it's also just reps, quality reps. Right. Yeah. Like with anything, podcasting, running, lifting.

I mean, you know, people always probably ask you to like, you know, what does it take to get really good at something? It's like about 10 years of reps and then just keep going. Yeah. And going and going. Most of the high performers that I know about are coming from a place of insufficiency. You know, they're trying to prove something to that parent, that teacher, that bully, that group of friends or whatever from their childhood, that they actually are worthy of love or praise or acceptance or admiration. And I think that you could track certainly through my 20s the fact that I think my fundamental framing of who I was was people might not like me or want to be.

around me because of the world that I'd come up from being really unpopular and bullied in school. But if they need me, that's like close enough. Right. That's a close proxy. I see. So if I'm the guy in the front door of the club with all of the VIP bands, people need me. Yeah. Now, obviously, this is fundamentally flawed.

Like, you don't need to offer people things in return for them liking you or wanting you to be in their life. That's not the way that it works. But for me, I was so convinced that I was flawed. and chronically meant to be alone, that I needed to be able to offer the world something in order to be accepted in that way. Right.

And yeah, I think that you could see going on the reality TV stuff is just scaling that up. Like, just give me more, give me more, more leverage, more scale, more exposure. And yeah, I think that wouldn't be too wrong to say, but it still creeps up in other areas of life. You know, even with all of the self-work and all of the bits and pieces I've been exposed

to over the last six or seven years, knows, I still see it creeping back up. It's very important that I need to keep in check my fears of insufficiency or lack of confidence or lack of self-belief. How does it crop up? Sometimes I feel like success is a fluke and imposter syndrome of nobody knows that I'm not supposed to be here. I think you've mentioned this as well, the fact that it almost feels like one day

someone's going to come out of the woodwork and go, oh, this actually isn't your life. Yeah. You actually don't deserve this. Yeah, you're the lonely kid by yourself. You're not supposed to be here. Oh, shit, we made a mistake. It's not supposed to be you. It's supposed to actually be that guy over there.

And you go, I knew it all along. Right. This is one of the strange things about the routines that you learn when you're a kid, because they just seep into all of the sinews of life. And they're so hard to pull out. You know, you can change your approach with. relationships at 30 and then 34 and then 38 and you've you know you've got perspective you can at least see them in a different way there's tons and tons of stuff from childhood that I simply can't remember

and yet I'm able to call on this like worldview of acceptance or lack of and it's very difficult to deprogram in that way I've spent a lot of time trying to re-program stuff so you know for anybody that has suffered with bullying as a kid that felt lonely that felt isolated that feels like they need to prove something to the world, like I feel for you because that's me. And the only way, two ways, I suppose, actually, that I've found that have been pretty successful at helping me. One has been having an undeniable stack of proof that I am who I say I am. So Rogan calls it building a mountain with layers of paint. Right. It's just one iteration after the next. Right. Better. Better. each single time that you do something,

you can get yourself to a stage where you've disproven your imposter syndrome so many times in the real world that it just has to, it's crushed under this ridiculous weight of evidence. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's no way that you could continue to exist.

And the other side is to find people that just want you for you. You know, this is friends, this is family, this is partners. Right. And if you've got someone who, there's no contingency. for why they want to be around you. Yeah.

That's hard, though, because they know you as you now. And you now is like, you know, looks like a model, fit, popular. Has power because you have a platform. So, yeah, I mean, I understand that, you know, you have changed, but I think you're still the worry is like, I'm still that kid. Do they only want me because of now my position? Right. And this is one of the problems of success.

I think this is why you have. you know, actors that you find out about their entire entourage was pushing them. Avichi, this famous DJ who didn't want to continue playing and all of the friends that were around his assistants and his managers and stuff. It looked like they were pushing him to continue to play because they were invested in that. No, were they monetarily invested, but that was their status, that was their lifestyle, that was what they wanted to do. And they were prepared to push this guy to the stage where he had to take his own life. So, you know, you know, you know, you can definitely when you start to gain accolade or success,

the motivation of the people that are around you can be called into question. Yeah. And if you've got that framing already that maybe the world doesn't want me for me, you can, what was this, this quote that I heard, a negative mind will find any way to make the world fit his priors. Right. So if you go into a situation, adamant that, this is that you are unlovable, unwanted, broken, flawed, insufficient,

you will manage to warp reality to be able to fit what you already believe. Right. You think about like that middle school girl who would love the mile runs and just to compete in run. And then you think, so that was, I don't know, 30 years ago, right? Like, how does that happen where you're just somebody who enjoys running and now you're one of the, the most iconic women ultra runners in the world. How does that, is that just time? Is that just time in having a passion for something and just doing it?

Because it's your heart's full when you do it. Is that the secret? Yeah. I guess I didn't know ultra running was a thing. Like I know some kids, some people in the sport learned about it when they were a kid, you know, watch these 100 mile finishes. is and it made them dream that they could. I had no idea.

And to me, a marathon sounded like insane. I couldn't believe people did those. And I didn't, I didn't, yeah, I didn't foresee this path ever. How did you hear of your first 100? My first 100? Yeah. How do you hear, when did you learn that was a thing? I did a few road marathons.

and then I wondered what else I could try that sounded really hard. In that time period, I tried like a tough mutter. Like that sounded super hard, you know. Why? Because you like the endurance stuff? Yeah, and I just, I think I was just like looking for a thing outside of normal workday life that I could, you know, be, I was running every day anyways. So I was like, what could I sign up for just to see?

because who knows what will happen. Yeah. To me, and I want to hear what you say, starting is way harder than once you've been going and doing even the hardest races, it's at the early days of running. I mean, do you think, I've never heard as much. I think Taylor said this when we were talking, but he heard more like when he first was trying to run five or ten miles when he first started than in any ultra. Yeah.

You know, it's just getting your body used to the process. So what advice would you give to somebody who wants to be a runner? That it's that. It's hard at first, but it's tiny, consistent, you know, blocks that you're adding or grains of sand even on the pile. Like you're just putting one more grain on there, one more tiny block each day. But that consistency is the huge thing. So if you want to run five miles eventually, you shouldn't start by running five miles. Yeah.

You should start by running, you know, around the block. And then around a couple blocks, like go tiny, but be consistent. I think that's it. I've never heard that analogy about like a grain of sand at a time because people do want, they want these big gains. I mean, even Taylor St. He only adds 10 miles a year. but if you think it in perspective of a grain of sand building on that block now that's a that's a small increment but that is what it takes yeah and then you look back and suddenly you've got a pile there yeah you know they add up for sure it's just um you don't see the gain every day yeah like it wouldn't be like yesterday i couldn't hit 10 yards i hit a ladder instead of a target yeah it's a kill shot though that ladder didn't go anywhere It wouldn't be so quick. Yeah.

You know? It's just like this narrative around it's okay just to be you. Well, why not just be the better you? Like work on yourself, you know? Instead of making everybody else accept you with all your flaws. How about just be better? Just be better. Yeah.

Like how much time do you spend training? Right. Like, I mean, huge percentage of your adult life you've spent working hard to be passionate about the things that you believe in you yeah yeah definitely yeah every day every day hours a day i mean it says it right here yeah yeah yeah and you know you and i could roll out of bed and we could start our day with you know a pack of cigarettes and a carton or a you know a gallon of ice cream mm-hmm we could yeah but that's weakness yeah it's okay to put out the fact that

that you want to be strong. You want to succeed. Yeah. Like, Jocko says it, discipline equals freedom. Right. And then people get trapped into this,

what I think is ultimately a propaganda campaign into saying, it's okay to just do whatever impulse comes into your head. And you don't need discipline. And ultimately discipline will, it's, it's it's the problem. You've heard it.

You've heard it. It's disgusting. Yeah. People talk about what I wasn't born privileged, right? Where I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth or I wasn't born privileged. Actually, I was. Like, my parents weren't wealthy. None of my, like nobody was.

Yeah. Like my entire family, for the most part, everybody. man they were positive they were they were a family like i spent time with my cousins my aunts my uncles we grew up in a really really small town in the middle of nowhere we spent time together as a family we encouraged each other that's pretty rare that's pretty lucky yeah yeah dude so i've changed it because i used to i used to talk about or hear people say well i didn't have you know wealth or privilege and was like actually i had something way more important than that yeah i had a dad that up every day at 4.30 in the morning and went to work, like working in the woods. I never saw him

inebriated my life. Never, never saw him. He came to every one of my baseball games. He came to my basic training graduation, special forces graduation. He showed up every that's rare fucking week. Yeah, you're lucky. And so that's what that's that's what I got, man. I actually got something better. That's a truth over spoon right there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, man, it's better. It's better than the Silver Spoon, you know? And it's like, I got hugs. Yeah.

I got people high-fiving me and telling me jokes when I was a kid. I didn't get like people punching me in the mouth. So I feel good. Mm-hmm. And I actually feel because of that, like I've been way luckier to have been inspired and raised by a bunch of real people. Yeah, super fortunate to have grown up where I grew up. Wow.

I think that's why you have the perspective you have. even given all these this turbulence you know the the blessings and the challenges it's like that your upbringing that being around positive people feeling that care and love that's what's made you have the perspective you have to be able to hey we're going to get through this it's going to be okay i'm going to deal with this this is this weights on my shoulders but i'm built for it i mean that's it's It's the whole journey who's prepared you for this. High quality relationships matter. You need to look at every single relationship with a critical eye.

Because the one that drags you down is the one that's holding you down. Yeah. And like you're playing down to other people's level. I don't like doing that. If someone is not maybe at your level, I'd like to try to help them get up, not come down to where they're at. Right. Like what?

So someone wants to like drink, hang out, party. they want to do this, they want to do that, or they don't want to lift or they, I don't know, maybe they're struggling in some other part of their life. What do you want to go down to that level and spend time in their misery and then convince them to go up the ladder? No, you stay high and help them go up. Yeah. Don't come down. And I find people are playing down to these relationships they have. It could be kids. It could be parents. It could be business partners. And you just, high quality relationships matter. So all these people your surroundings, yourself. You're kind of doing that in like this like really condensed way with all these outliers

and you're getting little pieces of it. High quality relationships matter. The more you touch, it's like criminal justice 454 at University of Maryland, Dr. Marielo. When two objects touch each other, they always transfer something. And so like when you go to doing a crime investigation and you look at tool marks on a door, whatever was used, there's something like, left from that. Right. When two objects touch, they always leave something. Yeah. Well, that makes a lot of sense. And that's, you know, I sit here and I talk to these outliers, but I think the people listening in or watching in, they're touching that in their own, you know, in some way. They're going to pick up something from that. Of course I am because I'm like three feet away, but everybody listening

in, if they have that mindset, they're going to gain something from that also. These podcasts are amazing like that. I mean, you might be on a run. You might be driving two hours to go to work. Like, yeah, you could listen to Rand Rand, Rand, or you could pop on a podcast. Listen to you, listen to Jocko, listen to Huberman. I mean, you get some serious knowledge. Oh, definitely. If you want to better yourself in life, podcasts are a hell of a way to get a jump on it. The trick that I find that most people don't is they don't know how to apply what they heard. right so what do you do how do you got to have a good uh yeah what's your advice there take risk change your structure change your behavior change your surroundings you're going to have to

change something in order to gain something you must stop something so people don't like change right and so i think when you hear these podcasts they're like oh well cool great i'm going to listen to another podcast. Okay, well, you just listen to a really fucking good one. What have you applied? What did you make changes? I'm almost the other way. I'm like, I'll fucking change every second. And people are, dude, slow down. You didn't even stick with this two seconds. Right. Right. I'm like, no, I already heard there's something better. So I can go a little overboard on change because I grew up with a lot of change. It doesn't bother me as much. I think that that taking risk in change is an important part of like asking yourself, are you taking enough risk

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hammering. I always say that having money and losing it is much more stressful than never having it. When you don't have it, you don't know really what you're missing. You just know that there's a, there's a light at the end of the tunnel. And I'm trying to get there. And when you get there and you're like, holy shit, I'm not, this isn't as overwhelming as I thought it would be. Cool. I have a lot of money, but I'm still the same person. Yeah.

I don't feel any happier. I don't feel like all my insecurities and vulnerabilities have gone away. Right. And I think that was the realization of like, holy shit, money is not the answer. There's only one way to deal with this. And that's to like do the hard work of coming to terms with some of the things that we go through in life. I mean, the life you've created, the brand you've made with Levi Morgan. And I see what you've built, you know, with your family, with your home with, you know, like I said, the brand of Levi Morgan.

And it's like, I mean, I love it. It's inspiring to me because to see somebody to take a passion. like that you have and turn it into this. It's a giant thing, really, because I don't imagine you could ever have envisioned this. No, no. Like, if you had told me, or if you could have let like 10-year-old Levi see

into the future, I would have passed out, you know, because it was like, I just shot a boat because I loved it. Yeah. I just happened to be, like, do it a lot. Love it so much that I just was obsessed with it and did it and wanted to learn every little piece of it. And so, yeah, I've been like,

incredibly blessed. And I think people that are good at what they do can never be really satisfied. And they're just like, ah, it's not good enough. It's not good enough. And so I also have a little bit of that, which I feel guilty about sometimes because I'm like, God, you've given me way more than I deserve, you know, and it's not that I don't think I'm getting what I deserve. It's just like, I can do better, you know, that kind of thing. But no, like what we've been able to do and what God's allowed me to do is like above and beyond what you know I could have ever expected as a kid or even even 10 years ago but it's kind of been and you and guys like you have kind of paved that way and showed that it's it's there's no limits you know what I'm saying you just if you're willing to do things

that nobody else is willing to do and just grind and go and be positive and just crush things and that's kind of the mentality I've taken to this game is just like how long can we do it you know what We talked about this too, the essence of who you are and how you've built this platform and how, you know, you didn't necessarily try to do it. You're just, you're just being in campaigns and I put my camera on me here and there and people love it. People love it because it's, it's authentic and also people want to see people doing things out of the ordinary and do things that are hard. You don't have to run a marathon for it to be your hard. Your hard could be something else like I talked about. But just coming here and getting immersed in the experience,

having an awesome conversation, doing something a little bit hard, but also, you know, challenges you spiritually, mentally, physically. And I think it's great that every single time, it will be different. It isn't like, hey, this is what we do every time. This is the first one. This was me. And I, even for me, for my personal, I wanted to be able to finish the marathon. I was like, well, we kind of were like, we know we're running again later.

We're at least going to be at what, 15, 16, 17, 17. I was just going to 26. Let's just do it. Yeah. So last night was a doozy. Yeah. In the middle of the night, basically. It was great. It's like, but I think you made a good point too. It's like when you're around people who that's okay, here's what we do. Then it changes your mindset. It's like you wouldn't have. I probably wouldn't run a marathon yesterday either by myself. You wouldn't have for sure back at home because you haven't. But together you get around these people that elevate your game. You know, and you know, I made, I know you made a reference of it yesterday that a rising tide lifts all boats. And it's like that was a snapshot of it just.

two guys. Two guys training is like, hey, let's push each other. Let's do a little bit more than we otherwise would have. And then sometimes magic happens. And we're on top of Piscoll last night, a summit, 10 o'clock at night or whatever it was. Of course, nobody else out there. And we had just finished a marathon. I mean, how great a feeling is that? It was really, really cool. And like I said, even for me, I wouldn't have done it on my own, you know, but I could do it with you by my side. because I know, well, A, you've been there and done that. And B, if you, you know, if you can do it, it gives me the permission that I can do it, you know?

Dream bigger. Yeah, of course. But I think that's what we, that is the essence of our human existence, you know, like God created us for community. God created us for relationships. And we can be inspired by those around us. And I honestly think of running a marathon was, easier than I thought it was, but I think it was easier than I thought it was because you were there,

right? You know, if you, if, you know, next week, if I'm like, hey, I'm going to go run a marathon by myself, it's going to be a lot harder. Right, right. But because I was watching your feet go, just watching them, and I could just go with your cadence and just like, okay, we're here and we have a little bit of conversation here and there. And a couple of those times it got Harry when we were actually climbing the mountain. I'm like, Cam, don't talk to me.

You know, but, you know, you unlocked my, you, you also. unlocked my running potential by not even trying to. You were just running it out, but you weld something up inside of me. Right. That it was actually easier than I thought it was. Now granted, I woke up this morning and, you know, a little sore, but it was good. We did it. We finished.

Well, I think people, they get so used to this narrative where so if you say, well, I'm going to run a marathon, people, the natural inclination would be like, well, have you even been training? Yeah. You know, they want to shoot it down before they know anything because it's like we're ingrained. It's like, well, that's hard. That's, you know, you got to take six months to recover from a marathon. That's been a thing people will say. So they give you all these reasons.

Do you have the right shoes? Do you whatever? It's like, just ignore all that and like, no, we're going to run a marathon. It might take, you know, a few hours. We're going to cover the distance and it's going to be okay. Yeah. And at the other side of it, we're going to have a whole different view on running, I guess, or what we're capable of or if we're around,

certain people, what we can do together. And it's like, but at all, you have to get going. And yes, there are excuses you can make. You can say, well, I haven't been preparing. You know, as you said, it's been the holiday season, Christmas, it's New Year's. I haven't been doing this. So he had plenty of opportunity to say, yeah, I'm not really prepared for this. How about if we just do 10 and I would have been sweet, let's do 10.

No biggie. But instead, your mentality and us together, it allowed us as you. you said gave us permission to do more. Yeah. Dream bigger. Yeah. And I also don't want to have people here because they know who you are. And if they watch mixed martial arts or they see mixed martial arts or they look me up,

they're like, okay, this guy's a little bit kind of crazy too. Like maybe you're maybe you aren't, maybe you are just starting your fitness journey or listen to a guy who runs a marathon a day often and a guy over here who fights every day. Every day. Every day. You know, like, but you got to start where you're at and also just get around people. Maybe for you, for me, a huge win was running a marathon yesterday with hands. And part of it was uphill.

But maybe for you, if you're starting your fitness journey, you're starting your weight loss journey, you're starting your spiritual journey, whatever journey you're starting, whatever journey you're starting, it's just putting one foot in front of the other without sounding cliche, just like we're talking about running. It is maybe for you, it is a walk around the block. And then a month from now, it's a couple of walks around the block and then starting to jog a little a little bit and then starting to change this. And then getting around people who say, you know what, I believe in you.

You know? Yeah. You know, you didn't have to tell me, hey, I believe in you that you can do this marathon. But it was, but it was you were unlocking that potential with me just by being there with me. And it's, it goes back to community and relationships and also being around people and be inspired by people. Because we could also get so caught up in the social media age where we're like, well, I'm going to watch this guy do. This guy out here is pushing himself and live in his dream and how I'm inspired. You know, but then you just, the inspiration goes away until you look at the next guy. and then the next guy and the next guy,

and you never actually do anything. Right. You know, you got to take the action. And the other thing, too, is just like I gave the kind of the example of, I'm a little bit less sore than I thought I was going to be. And it was actually a little bit easier than I thought it would be. But I would never have known that had we not tried it. Right.

And I think this idea of people being so afraid of failure. Because I, there was moments there where I was like, shoot, dude, like, I'm about to finish this marathon. Because last night, we had a nice little dinner. I got some elk and stuff. And I'm like, okay, I got 15 miles ahead of me. Yeah. Like, what if I, what if I got to tell Cam, I got to tap out here?

But I was willing to do that. Number one, because of who you are, I know you wouldn't judge me and it would have been just fine. But also, you don't know what you're capable of unless you're willing to fail. Unless you're willing to fall flat on your face and be laughed at and fingers pointed at. So no matter where you're at on your fitness journey or any journey that you're on, A, get around the people that you want to emulate and be around who or somebody that wells something up inside of you. And B, don't be afraid of failing because if you ain't failing, you ain't trying. When people say, you know, oh, who you haven't on a podcast next night?

I'm like, Nick Berry's like this fitness guy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know him. So now it seems all good, right? What was the hardest part of that 11-year journey? I mean, there's a lot. but if I think about one one thing that I learned that I think other people can implement into their life it's you know you get started with this this passion project this this purpose this idea of what you want to create and how you want to create it and it's really true and authentic to

yourself and the longer you do it and you start achieving some wins and some success it's really easy to be guided in the wrong direction. You know, these white rabbits pop up left and right and here and there and it's easy to chase them. I mean guided or just naturally go that way? Naturally go that way. You know, say you get started in, you see another crater that is following certain trends and it's working for them.

It's really easy to follow that way. Or you see another business following a blueprint and it's working for them and it's really easy to try to implement that blueprint into your business thinking it's going to recreate. the same results. But if you can set your trajectory and you're really honest with yourself about who you are and who you want to serve and how you want to serve them and what you want to create and what makes you unique and special and you stay on that path, I think that's one of the most difficult things to do, but it's the most rewarding thing.

I'm a big fan of compounding consistency over time to show up and be consistent, just show up and be consistent. One of the things my running coach, Jeff Cunningham, says, is it's better to be consistently good than occasionally great. You know, you think of the runner who wakes up every single day, goes and logs their miles, day in, day out. It's hot, it's cold, it's rainy, it's sunny, they're still going to log their miles. Then you have the other person who wakes up, they snooze,

they don't go run their miles, they don't log their easy runs. But occasionally they go out and they run, the fastest mile they can or they go and sign up for a marathon and blow up and they're occasionally great but to be consistently good that compounds and that's going to get you so much further than the person who's chasing quick greatness so how does one first of all get to be the best i mean how did you get to be the best here's the thing i i don't know if i'm the best but i've put in a lot of time yeah you know i think i mean there's days where or like years in the past before I had a family, I would be out in the field three,

my biggest year is 323 days in one year in the field. That's a lot. It's a lot of days. And that's just one year, you know. I mean, I've professionally, now I've been professionally guiding and whatever for about, this would be 21 years. So I think like putting in the time and spending that time hunting on the mountains, learning the animals, that helps, right?

because it's just it like anything thousands of repetitions and you start to like figure it out in a way and and honestly making a lot of mistakes i think that to be really good at something i don't i mean i've failed at certain things thousands of times essentially and it's like okay number 1 000 oh i figured it out and then that formula works and then maybe you fail again and you go okay i figured it out and then i think the other thing too is like i i hate I mean, I don't, I don't know if it just lends to me. The way that I like to hunt is I've always really loved hunting. And so, like, when I was a kid, if I would go out on a hunt, let's say we had five days to hunt.

And a good buck stepped out on day one. I would never shoot that buck. I would shoot a deer on the last evening of the last day because I loved hunting so much. I didn't want to go home. And that's how I think that that's like the part of my brain that allowed me to go hunting. 323 days. Like how do you, I mean, I worked in three different countries as a guide, kind of chased the seasons, essentially all the other days were just travel days and I'd be in the field scouting,

taking clients, hunting for myself, whatever. But I think that, you know, having that that time and then also it kind of, I gravitate toward difficult hunts, the ones that were the success could be really low because those hunts naturally allowed me to hunt longer. So I like, I pick an, I intentionally pick hunts that I think that I'm probably not going to be successful, which is a weird thing. But it's, I don't know, it's like my, it's what I love. And so I think by doing that too, I've had experience with very difficult hunts and

then found success or, you know, I made it harder on myself by bow hunting and then self-filming. And so it like extended the hunt. It made it more challenging. So I had to pay attention to more details. Right. Or like then from bow hunting and self-filming to bow-hunting and self-filming a recurve hunt. And then from that like bow-hunting and self-ferming a recurve hunt in an over-the-counter unit

that I've never been in. Yeah. Continually like pushing the bar for myself. I think that that lended itself to me having a lot of failures, which led to a lot of experience, which led to a lot of success. Tell me about to smile or you're doing it wrong. I don't know where that. started sure well it started on a Strava segment so Strava is an app that you can

like make these segments and people make them all over the world and you can run them and I was running this random hill and the segment was called you're either smiling or you're crying and I think probably if you're going downhill you're smiling if you're going uphill you're crying yeah but I just thought it was just like a momentary thought like maybe a decade ago and I said man if If you're not smiling doing this, you're doing it wrong. And then that just, I started putting that in social media posts. And that's where it started.

And then it's obviously gotten so much bigger that it's, it's more of just a like about philosophy and a sort of a mantra about how lucky we are to be able to do what we're doing. And even if it's like terrible and horrible, you know, there's still joy in it. Right. I mean, like, I've, I've been in races where people are really hurting. and they really want to quit. And I'll look at them and I'll be like, well, what do you do for a living? The guy will be like, I make pizzas.

And I'm like, okay, do you want to be making pizzas right now? He's like, no, you know? And I'm like, that's right. Now get up and keep running, you know? And it's like sometimes we lose perspective of how lucky it is that we can go out there and suffer and do these hard things. but I you know the joy and the smiling and just also just the spreading the positivity if you're in a race someone's having a hard time and you come across them and you smile at them instinctively most of the time they will smile back at you yeah

and when once somebody smiles there's like a trigger in their brain and it sometimes can get them out of that like real negative low moment just because they smiled right and and so I think you know there's some some positivity in that as well like sometimes that's all you need is somebody go hey good good job. Hey, you look like you're killing it. Even, and you feel like death, you're slogging up this hill and somebody comes by and tells you you're doing a great job. Sometimes that's all you need emotionally to get out of it. Because a lot of times in ultras and in life, it is just emotions that are holding you back. Yeah. It's not your physical. It's your brain. So if you can have a small chemical change in your brain to like the trigger effect. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's just a

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Go Grizzly. obviously you've talked a lot about risk and danger being an important component for growth I just kind of wanted to know how that opinion or that belief has been challenged as a father whose kids are now getting closer to the age where they start making those decisions on their own so I would probably clarify a little bit how I feel about that risk in danger I don't think it is required and I think a lot of people I can use wing suiting as an example because a lot of people from the outside of that, they would look at that and be like, why would you do that? You're out of your mind.

That is so incredibly dangerous. And I will not sit here and tell anybody that that is a safe activity. Right. But I will say, I think it can be done as safely as possible. And what people never saw on a YouTube video or an Instagram video is that I would spend six months training to go to Switzerland for two weeks and then do an immense amount of jumps. And maybe two of those would actually end up being. posted somewhere. And in that, you are managing, assessing, and controlling as much risk as possible.

Can you get a better wingsuit? Can you get a better coach? What can you do to reduce the risk down to as low as possible? And then the question is, is the juice worth the squeeze? So it's not this cavalier approach to risk. And even in my old job in the military, people like, oh, man, you guys must have been fearless. I'm like, I actually wouldn't want to work with somebody who's fearless because that would mean they're likely a sociopath or a psychopath. Right. Like the things they asked us to do are pretty dangerous sometimes. And if you're not scared, I have some questions for you. Like first question, are you paying attention? Were you awake in the brief? Yeah. Because this might be gnarly. And then the same thing, we do the same thing with the high risk operation is you

analyze, assess, and mitigate on risk. So it's this constant cycle of where's the risk? What can we do to mitigate it? What's the residual? Can we keep going? and going and going until the risk threshold comes down. And on the first slide of every military operation, it lists the residual risk. A lower risk operation is probably going to be able to be approved at, let's say, a battlespace commander level. Something like going into Iran,

I bet you that was a White House call because of the high-level nature of that operation. We can leave the narrative about was it for the nukes or rescue, whatever it was, for them to go into Iran like that with the assets that they did. In the daytime, by the way, very high risk. I bet you that was sec-def, if not presidential approval on that one. And again, is the juice worth the squeeze on that? I have just found in my life when I can get to places where I am exceptionally challenging myself to the limit, not over the limit, but to the limit of what I'm capable of, that's been the most rewarding times in my life. Okay.

The things that I have not worked hard for are the ones that I value the least in my life. Yeah, that makes sense. Who I have on the podcast is outliers. And you are like the definition of outlier. And now, now, you know, I'm still older than you, but, you know, you've been around a while. Yeah. And still, but still fucking shaking things up. How does that work?

Yeah, I think it's, uh, just keep reinventing myself. And I feel like I've, I love marketing. business in the categories that I enjoy you know I've been pretty fortunate to ever have to do much that I don't want to do as far as like categories um but yeah I feel like um nowadays it's it's my category is more like mentoring my kids I would say yeah and I find in my space my niche you know but I had all my years of action sports and motorcross supercross car racing and all that stuff and And now it's, yeah, I'd say I'm middle-aged man. And also, I have that going on.

So, and there's always an audience for that. So it's good. Well, I know, now I've been to a couple events. And all I know is every time I'm around you, there's a million people yelling, Brian, Brian, Brian, Brian, Brian, it's like nonstop. People want picture, want some time, something. So, yeah, I mean, you say you're middle age and like the dad thing, But man, you still got a presence out there.

Yeah. And in our sport, such as I'll say action sports and, you know, motor sports, I grew up more than 80s, 90s. I'd say 90s was kind of my era. And so those guys from the 90s that were young, teenagers that grew up in the, my era of action sports militia, the whole vibe. And they are now their 40s and 50s with kids. And their kids are now following my kids.

and now kids are all watching consuming their content through YouTube. And we started our YouTube channel over, man, it must have been, you know, it's over 10 years ago now. We've been doing YouTube and we were one of the first ones in the motocross industry to do it. And we just stayed at it. And it has built the craziest fan base. I mean, more than I could ever think of, you know, is people following the journey of our kids from when they were younger racing. And they first started watching because of my ex-games and in action sports and car racing. And then they were watching the kids.

And I always felt like together was stronger. Okay. Like instead of investing my time in, you know, a lot of other things, which I say you have your stock value. Your name is your stock value to me. You got one product. One product is your brand, right? And that's your name. And that's your, you know, credibility.

in. And so, and I am always invested back in my family. And I felt like that was important. And, you know, I definitely had pushed back of like, oh, why would you expose your kids, your family on YouTube and this ad? And I thought, well, you know, I get your point, but we've always shown action.

You know, we don't show too much personal. It's just like, okay, we're filming and showing what we're already doing, which is racing. You know, racing, action sports, flipping dirt bikes, you know, the fun stuff in the yard. You know, stuff people can relate to. And I feel like that journey has been something people have followed, you know, getting back to the point

of 90s, you know, a generation. And I have people that have followed me. Now their kids are following my kids. It has been a generational thing. And now I think that's why the fan bases have gotten so big. How does one make themselves, well, I mean, it's marketable, I guess, but valuable to a company. As just a individual. Yeah. Like a, are you asking like how do you become like a hunting personality slash influencer. Yeah, I just want to know what you guys value from the, from the company, because I have my guesses. I've, like I said, I've just been on this side of it. Sure, sure. So what do you guys look for? So a couple different things. At a, for people that we're going to pay, there's a mathematical, like. And how realistic is being paid to

bo-hunt. It's very not realistic. It's extremely hard. Yeah. It can totally be done. I think that almost everybody that is doing that, like, has you to thank for some degree for that because you've proven that, like, this path is attainable. It can happen. It's possible. Like, you should have, I listen to your episode with Greg and you guys brought up, or he brought up Chris. You should definitely have Chris on to talk about it. Because he's like, the pristine. an example of, you know, he's 26 or seven. He's 10 years into YouTube. Like, he's doing it live right now. Um, so there's a mathematical, like, how many eyeballs do you get? Um, what's your, I'm interested in you as a distribution vehicle to help champion like just brand name,

get it out there. That's a part of it. So having like a platform from which you can speak with, with credibility is like the most important thing because you and I both know guys that just shill whatever to whoever will write them a check. I'm totally not interested in that. Yeah. So so much of how possible is it to become a personality that gets paid to hon, and I use that paid to haunt as like you do much more than just hunt. I'm totally aware. That's just kind of how people frame. Yeah. It starts with, do you love it? And I mean really love it. And I think you and Greg did a good job of like framing. I think he said like you should be prepared to lose money for three years if you do this.

I think that that's, I lost for a lot longer. Yeah, yeah. But yeah. You also existed a different moment in time when you were on your come up? So like when did you like the business of hunting? You said 1989 earlier. What happened in 1989? That's when I started bohunting. Okay. When did you like, because you wrote for Eastman's for a long time, like when did you get your first dollar from hunting? God, it was a long, I mean, maybe at least 20 years. I mean, I remember PSC had a commercial and they said, we don't, we don't pay or like something like these people shoot PSC for free and I was on there. And that was like in 2000. two or three and then I was like kind of like going I was writing for Eastman's but I'm like if they're saying that I'm doing this for free it's like I mean I have value they have me up my picture on there why am I not if I'm being used right how come what do I get right you know

then I was just like because then and then it evolved into just so then it'd be super huge small i don't even know how much no money hardly but uh finally i think i was uh i i went to i started to play this camo game because the camo companies had the money you know basically way more than a bow company or an accessory company they you know those guys make a lot of money and it's not even they don't have to manufacture this selling the the pattern so they're you know it's just right they definitely have have more to to um i guess i don't sponsor people or whatever so i went through and i just said i looked at my impressions per thousand so i'd add up like i write for this magazine this is this is this many people i post this or and like this was might have even been right at the

advent of facebook but i could keep track of where i was reaching people how many people i was reaching and how much i was proposing they pay me and then it would be you're going to pay this much per thousand impressions through me. Yeah. And it was a big number by adding all that up because it's awesome. TV show. It's just, I had all the numbers for the viewers.

So I made it really easy for a marketer to be like, wow, that's, he's getting out there. You know, so I remember I signed a deal for like 125,000, five year deal with I, kind of as a realtor or a mossy oak,

but I'm just like, I'm making a hundred thousand. It didn't matter this over five years. Sure. It was just like that was kind of, and validated at that time. Yep. So that took over 20 years.

Right. And so I think the point there to bring that into a modern context is what you're talking about, like the CPM, like impressions per thousand, that was a very mathematical way to substantiate someone's distribution value as a marketer themselves for my thing as a brand person. That is still a component. I think now that's that's part of, that's just like table stakes. If you don't have a lot of distribution, that's like, I'll cede you some gear. And I want to invest in people on the come up personally.

And so I'm actually in the middle of like negotiating a couple of deals right now with younger creatives that are on their own rise. Nice. Because the thing that I find most interesting is I want to align with people that are very, hungry and trying to build the life that they want to live. And if I can help facilitate that, that scratches my own itch. Yeah. And I get to the extreme joy, and I do mean that, the joy of shepherding a budget wherein I can help do that for people. It's like, you're out there doing the thing, trying to build your presence and like do what we're talking about right now. Can I, is this even real? Is this possible?

to dream. It's great. I can see you on the internet, call you, be like, hey, dude, what's up? Tell me your story. What are you trying to do? And if you just engage with me in a way that's like super honest, and I think that you're talented, and most of what I'm looking at is, do you represent capital H hunting? It's like how I frame it. Like, I work in this space because I'm really afraid that hunting can be legislated out of existence before I'm dead. And so working at a brand, is my attempt to grab the biggest megaphones that I can to be like, hey, this deserves to exist. And I want to work with people that all feel the same way. So if you're on that team, I'm with you. Yeah. That's what I do. Selling stuff is just like the mechanism by which I do that. Right. So do you really love it? Do you have a passion for it? Are you dedicated? Do you represent capital age hunting in a way that is like morally and ethically defensible to a non-hunting voting public. Are you stewarding your small corner of the internet in a way that's net positive for the lifestyle that we all love? That's what I'm really after. And just because we're a smaller company,

like I can't go out and sign people like you. Like, I don't have the budget for what you would demand. I'm interested in younger creatives, guys on the come up, people that are like, I'm, dude, I'm on the cusp. I'm trying to figure this out. Because those guys are dogs, like motivated. They're grinding for it. And it's like aligning with people that are hungry, it's net positive for the both of us. And so in any negotiation stuff that I do, it's like, what are the incentives and how can we align them?

Because I'm going to ask things of you and you should ask things of me. So this should be a fair and equitable deal here. I look for scenarios where everybody can win. because we're not a huge brand where it's like, yeah, I can just write you a check and let you do whatever you do and trust that it's going to be good for me. I don't have that type of firepower. Different bigger brands is like, I lived in that world before. That's totally a thing and appropriate for other brands at different phases of the game. I like really need it to work where I'm at now.

And so I'm very choosy. And so much of like as a creator, as a hunter of who's like the game is content in media right now. Yeah. You should spend a lot of time like picking your horse because you want to do everything you can to keep your integrity. intact. But I was curious about this. Do you think, who has a higher ceiling? A grinder with less talent who's had to outwork everybody to get with that or somebody

who's born with the talent and just gets by on talent, I guess there's different levels to everything. It's almost always the talent. The talent always wins? It's the talent. That's not fair. I get asked this a lot. Did I have no hope?

People ask me that one commonly. Like, what is the difference between, because I've dealt with probably five or six of the highest contracts in professional sports in America, right, across multiple sports. So the question comes up, like, what separates those guys and girls from the next round? And it's, they're just better. And, well, it's probably like the perfect storm is all the talent and all the work. That's how you get a LeBron. And the Jordan. Yeah.

Yeah. Guys that sustain, guys that do things. And you're like, wow, girls. And you're like, wow, that's how you get flow joes. That's how you get people. You're like, oh. Yeah. Those are world beers that are going to have their names on flags.

No question. Yeah. But most professional athletes in terms of skill sports, golf, baseball, hockey, they're just better at their sport. Mm-hmm. Some of them are really good workers, really diligent. Others are not. They're just fundamentally better. Yeah.

That doesn't mean. the other people have no shot. But those people are guys and girls that are like on the bubble. Okay, so they're on the bubble, but because they do all those things, right? They have a seven or eight year career. They might be an all-star once or twice.

That is where you're like, you know, you just changed your life, your family's life. Because if you would have done that, you wouldn't have got there. You wouldn't have made it. You wouldn't have made it. Yeah.

Right. That's the bubble. So when I first left those people, that's the person I wanted to work with. I wanted to work with that bubble person. I wanted to work with a person who has one shot and one preseason to make an NFL roster. And they make it that year, they get to say the rest of their life they play in the NFL. Or they don't.

Right. Right. That one person who's going to get the Olympics one time. That one person to get one contract that changes the life and they can buy their family out of distress. And there's just so many things that go into this that literally change people's life. It just resonated with me and so much more. I'm like, that's the person. Like, that's the person I want to go help.

Everyone's fighting to work with some, you know, the famous. Yeah. And so, and because they want, they're really not telling you. They get 10% of their contract. It's not like that, but it's a lot of times it's like, oh, I work with that person. And then my name will get out and then I'll get famous. Yeah. Like, yeah, I don't think you know how this works.

Right. I don't think you know how this works. But I resonated the opposite. So I started working with people that, that were going to, sell their soul basically for a dream and no one would know or care. That's what got me. Right. Initially and for probably the first seven to eight years, that's pretty much all I did.

You mentioned a bunch of goals. Do you write down all these goals? Like do you journal? Like you said the 70, what did you say? 70 miles on your 70 birthday or? So do you have these goals written down? I mean, they're in journals. Yeah.

But not like, no. They're not like on a wall. You're a sticky note on my mirror or anything. I do that. I'll, you know, I like to. publish ahead of time like my year goal so okay on my substack I will go through what my goals are for 2026 at some point because I'm a big believer in just being honest about your goals like don't hedge your bets hedging your bets is for whims like yeah it's not that's not cool it's not

it is like if you're trying to win say you're trying to win and if you fail it's okay yeah right like uh you know who kamar ozman is yeah yeah yeah he said something on on rogan one time where when he got caoed by Leon Edwards. And he was like, I'm happy my daughter was there because I want her to see me fail and be okay afterwards. Right? Yeah. What?

That's the mindset. That's amazing. I know. And that, he's one of my favorite athletes of all time because I think he's got the mentality of just a, like an insane person in a good way. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It's that kind of thing where like, I'm just, you know, I know people who hedge their bets who are like, I don't want to be honest about my goals because I don't want to be embarrassed when I fail.

And that's not the way to be. No. Like it's, I'm just, I want to put it all out there. And if I don't reach it, for all what they may. Exactly. It's like we were talking about like reaching for enlightenment. Yeah.

I'm never going to get there. Yeah. But I'm, that's my goal. That's the goal. It's, uh, you know, Truick puts out big goals and he sometimes he comes up short. But we were, we were on that hunt with jelly roll the other day and his truth's birthday. And so I was talking to him on the phone and jelly roll came up.

He's like, hey, you know, he was, hey, could I say something? So he just mentioned to True, which ties in exactly to this, that he likes that True, it sets these big audacious goals because Jelleyroll told the story about there was a time in his career where he could sell out like a two to $4,000 venue and it would be sold out, and Jelly Roll sold out. But he had to make a decision should he go for those venues or the next venue up, which is say an eight to $12,000. seat venue and he probably wouldn't sell it out but he could and would it be better to sell 8,000

at a 12,000 seat venue or sell out the smaller 2,000 to 4,000 seat venue and he said let's go big yeah because we got to go big and if we don't get it that's okay because we will get it at some point and he thought that that was a better option than just the safer bet hedging your bet as you said like you want to win but you're not going to say it yeah because you look bad if you don't or you look whatever. So that was like a perfect illustration of that mindset. And now jelly roll can sell out a stadium. Yeah.

You know, so would that have happened? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe he wouldn't have worked quite as hard because he had already hit his mark. You know, he'd already sold out. He's a sell,

you know, he's already like selling out these shows. So that makes sense to me perfectly. I love it too. I've got a few things I say along that line to myself. And one of them, for one of first forms mottoes is never settle. And I, you know, I love that. Like never settle.

Well, you do better. You know, keep working. Keep hammering. Right. And in another one that I say to myself along a similar line is no limits. Like all these limits you're going to set for yourself are arbitrary. They are. When I was going into Bigfoot this year, I was aiming for 48 hours, right?

And I finished in 45. And if you had told me beforehand that I was going to finish in 45, I would have been like, 45? A big foot? Yeah. How? That is crazy. I mean, it was seven miles shorter than the original course, but still.

God. It was three hours faster than when I thought was possible. Yeah. And so after that, I'm like, what, what am I doing? Yeah. Limits here. Like, this is so stupid. Like, no limits, you know?

That's like my sign off on my Instagram post now is no limits because you love it. You just like that jelly roll story, you know, if he had limited himself, maybe he's not where he is today. Yeah. You know? And if it doesn't scare you, is it really worth doing? Right.

Right. Like, it should, your goals should scare you. Yeah. It should feel barely attainable. And that's the sweet spot. Got back into skating. I quit skateboarding when I was doing my thing and in addiction. Struggling.

Yeah, struggling. And the company that I worked at had a skate park in one of the warehouses. And I would skate in there every day and I kept getting injured. I broke one of my ankles. and then six months later I broke my other ankle so I was just out for quite a few months I couldn't do anything I was just sitting on the couch I was on a knee scooter crutches and I had a roommate at the time who was like super into going I mean he was a bodybuilder so he was super into going to go into the gym and I came to him one day I was like dude I just feel like shit man

like I need to like do something and he was like start coming to the gym with me like I'll show you what to do like I'll teach you how to lift and yeah I started I just got a gym gym membership and started going to the gym and like I remember one thing he said to me he was like just pay the 30 bucks a month like an investment in your body and your health is the greatest investment that you'll make in your life and uh I just started going with him and I wasn't I mean I do enjoy lifting quite a bit now but I wasn't trying to be like him you know like he's benched three 15 yeah yeah super jacked and uh I was like going and getting comfortable and then I eventually just found myself like going to the cardio machine area and doing the stair climber or doing

the elliptical machine like I couldn't even run on the treadmill at that point and uh eventually I did start running on the treadmill and I was like oh I really like this like this makes me feel good productive yeah it's hard it's challenging and uh I couple months of doing that I'd be going to the gym and just going there to run on the treadmill for 30 45 minutes and I'm like why do I have this gym membership if I'm just going to run on the treadmill like I can just run outside so started running outside And yeah, I remember it being like super hard, you know. Running on a treadmill is like totally different than running on the road if you've never done it. And you don't have to propel yourself.

Right, right. You just kind of go up. Yeah. And I remember doing a three or four mile run. I was like, shit, man, I can barely do this, you know? And I was like, just wanted to push myself. I was, every time I ran, I wanted to either run a little bit further or a little bit faster. And that was kind of the beginning of like this obsession that had developed.

with me and running. And I think part of that's just like having such an addictive mind and I get obsessed over things really easily. And I do, I really like to take things to the extreme, you know? So running was just like filled this void in my life and became like a new, healthy obsession outlet for me to, for me to do. And it like seriously changed my life. Yeah. I like to say like running changed my life and ultra running ruined my life you know because uh yeah it's at you know when you're when you're doing uh when you're training and doing 100 200 mile races it's like all consuming and i don't really skate or surf anymore as much as i'd like to but um i'm just so focused and dedicated to like seeing how far i can go with this whole ultra running thing yeah yeah

you're still you're loving it yeah i'm in love with it yeah and somebody who kind of went through those hardships or struggles with body image, self-confidence, and then you started, you know, winning these races. I guess I can fit this into one. You know, it made me think about Gary Cantrell and he was talking about how like the loss is losing is coming. Like it and it's, it's going to be good. If a team has a complete winning streak, their first loss, there's a lot that can be learned from that. Is there kind of this built up pressure for when that streak ends? And have you attach some self-worth to all of these first place finishes. Yeah, I've thought about this a lot. Because I do, I don't, I mean, and again, Spartathlon happened. So like, streak. Um, but

again, Spartathlon taught me a lot about the, and I agree with Gary, the power of everything going wrong. And like, what you do with the lessons, you have to, you have to, if you apply them, then you actually win. Of course, I think that there's going to be pressure, and I know that podcasters are going to be like, and Rachel takes ninth in like a shocking turn of events and like, ha, ha, ha, you know, but that is not, I hope that when that happens,

and I will say when that happens, because it will, at some point I will not win everything forever. And when that happens, I hope to be strong enough to learn instead of just allow, that opinion to bury me to sit and fester yeah make some kombucha i think yeah i think you're gonna be you're so smart and deep thinking i think you're just gonna like it's i don't know it's one of those things where hey we get better from it you know it's just like you you explain that with spartathal on it's just like everybody's gonna fail i don't care i don't care who it is it's just

how you bounce back and that's like that's what a true winner is so in some I don't want you to lose, but in some ways, if that happens, I want to see how much better you come back because that's usually the catalyst to greatness. Yeah. Is being disappointed. Yeah. All winning teaches you is how to not, what things not to change. Yeah.

Losing or not losing, that's a hard word, but like. Just reevaluate. Yeah. Exactly. Like that, that forces growth where winning does not do that. If anything, winning forces stagnation. Yeah. Like, okay, I need to keep doing what I've been doing.

Exactly. And it gets you so rigid and like, well, if I don't get these things, then like, I won't win. So yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to say that I look forward to the day when I don't win a race. But part of me, it's almost like gaslighting myself into thinking that running at night is fun. Part of me is like, all right, like, let's see what happens on the day that I don't win. Yeah. And let's see the person that emerges out.

after that event happens and who that person is. And I hope I like that person. I came out with an episode, Olympic, the first one in the series. Yeah. And someone was like, this guy really thinks he's going to be able to do it. Like, I don't know what they thought, but I wouldn't announce this series and be training for it if I didn't think that I could do it. Yeah. It's not, it's not a game.

No. Yeah. No, no. I'm tying like this is everything. I'm giving absolute everything. I mean, you know me with weightlifting and like having muscle. I kind of built my identity around that. I'm giving that all up.

I'm not even doing any push-ups or pull-ups or anything like that. I'm just letting everything melt away with one goal in mind. And that's crossing a finish line before two hours and 16 minutes. Where are you at with your mindset when it comes to training and focus on a goal? First, it was a pull-up world record, you know, That was years in the making. Years. Five years, I think, from when Goggins was here training with us to when, maybe when you got it.

But tell me, like, what's the mindset do you ever waver that I don't know about? What I will say is just for people that are kind of questioning this, if it's possible for someone like me to do this, it was an impossibility, I'm sure, if you were to ask Goggins when he broke the record in 2013, you think someone will be able to do 10,000 in a day. And he does four, he did 4,030 in 17 hours. If you would have told him there's some stupid white kid from Springfield, Oregon, he's going to do 10,000 in a day. Do you think that's possible? He would be like, what?

That's insane. No. That's 6,000 more. Yeah. It just takes one person, right? That's what this whole thing's about. I might not have the same background as everyone else. And I might have a weird running form.

I might have too much muscle, this and that. if you're willing to show up and put in the work, anyone can do anything, right? That's what I'm essentially trying to prove and show. But for some reason, people don't even want me to try is what it seems like. I think they might be scared of what might come of it. If I am able to get it, is it a reflection on them? Yeah. I'm not really quite sure.

But to answer your question, with the pull-ups, there was very few moments where I felt like, you know, maybe this is a waste of time and I can't get it. There was that one moment you're talking about. I had just come off a failed world record attempt. Did $4,000 when I was supposed to do $8,100. And it took six months to get to the level to where I could do $8,100. And I think that was, so I failed in April. And then in May is the day that I called you because Alicia was like,

hey, Trude's going through like a mental breakdown. Can you talk to some sentence into him? And yeah, I just, I lost the plot for a second because I failed to realize the only thing that's stopping me from achieving this goal is myself. That's all that it was. Right. So that has carried now into this fast marathon. And granted, there's nothing that really indicates that I should be able to run this fast yet, right? It's just I'm willing to put in the work.

I'm healthy. I always I log the miles no matter how I feel I'm going to give my 100% an all

every single day toward getting faster and no matter if that's diet getting enough sleep doing all the little things like hip exercises a core workout

and then get enough speed training sessions in 100 mile weeks I truly don't care I'm willing to do all of it and if you're willing to do that, I think that at the very least you're going to improve. So I'm struggling.

I know that I'm going to improve. There's some moments where I'm like, am I going to be able to improve to the point to where I can be one of the best marathoners in the country? I'm sure that I don't know, but I'm sure that I'm going to find out. Yeah. I was talking about this on Joe's podcast

of telling myself we're going to do stuff and doing it. Where I used to tell myself who's going to do stuff we didn't do it, So then my body started being like, fattie. I'm not listening to you, man. You don't never tell me the truth. You know what I'm saying?

You mentioned that I think that was with your family when they were out there on that run that you did and they were cheering for you. Your first, I don't know if it's your first run, but you were saying that they had no reason to believe in you. You hadn't given them any reason. You'd been lying to yourself your whole life. Yep.

And my body had no reason to listen to me. Your body knew that, oh, yeah, he thinks this stuff all the time never happens. Never happens. Whatever. Used to, used to basically not being true to your word to yourself. To yourself.

And your family was used to you probably saying stuff and never doing it. Never doing it. I lied to them. Right. So how, that change? You slowly start building a rapport with yourself. Okay.

And this is what I tell people. Don't. It's what my therapist taught me, Mary B and Miles from on site. Miles is like a mentor to me. You start little things you tell yourself you're going to do and you do them. You're just that easy. Like, for me, it was real simple.

Gary Brecker said getting a cold plunge and walk 10,000 steps a day. I'm too fat to walk 10,000 steps. I'm going to get in his cold plunge because I'm a man. I should be able to sit in cold water for six minutes. You know what I mean? And I'm going to walk a half mile. I don't care what the weather is. I'm going to do it outside because I need sunlight.

I, like, I won, if I ever write a book, this will be a chapter in it. But it's like I adopted the cliches, too. You know what I mean? Like the fun cliches, you see all the, but all the real dudes say. Like Huberman's like, wake up and get in the sun. You want to battle depression? Just go look at the sun. You know what I mean?

I'm like, dude, this is a neuroscientist telling us this. You know what I mean? Like, I should do this. Yeah. You know, so it's simple. But it's a cliche. You hear it your whole life. Like, you don't feel good.

Just go take a walk in nature. Right. It's like, yeah, if that would solve my problems, Linda, I'd just go walk in nature. You know, that's that victim mentality. Right. You don't know what I've been through, Linda. You know? And then it's like, you start walking through nature and you're like, ooh.

I actually do it's happening. I feel better out here. I was like, I'm in a better mood. I'm a better husband because I took a little walk in the sunlight and thought about my day and how I was going to. And then, you know, so I just started telling my body what I was going to do. And then I started, and then it gets deep.

Then I started being able to manifest more. Then I started telling my mind what we were going to do. I was like, look, look, look, we know it's going to take a while for the body to get here. Yeah. But I need you to start thinking now. Like what's an example of that? Summer slam.

Okay. When I fell down, when I got to, choke slam awesome theory and I got up from them ropes and I was you know big and the um the Miz and um our truth helped me up and I remember thinking right then I started telling my mind like we're in a wrestle I'm embarrassed right now of how this just happened like I should I should I got to do something about this like what they had to help you up yeah yeah for sure that I was just so big I couldn't even get myself up right you know what I mean like just the basic ability to be so fat like I'm responsible for a full family out here cam yeah and I'm not even a man enough to be able to

get myself up in a timely enough fashion. You know what I mean? But they needed to help me to get me out of there for the TV had to cut. Yeah. Like, you know, and I asked them to help me. What's even worse? Before I went out there, I knew this was going to be a problem.

Yeah. I was like, hey, y'all, when we hit the five knuckle shuffle, help you boy. Yeah. That's a big, you know, I don't know anything. I don't know if I don't people get up. You know what I mean? Or I might have to roll out of the ring.

I'm not sure. You know, that's super like, and I remember feeling that feeling that feeling and sitting with it for a minute. And I was telling the body to do little stuff at the time. And I was like, this is where I'm going to start challenging the mind. I was like, I want you to start focusing on Logan Paul jumping off that top rope through a table on you. And I literally, everybody talks about manifestation.

I didn't really start truly trying to manifest. I've always manifested things in a real way, but it was more in like a natural just like belief of going forward way. This was me starting to be like, I want to see Logan Paul off that top rope. So, but explain the difference. Well, so now I've got to start telling the body because you can't confuse the body. But for me at least, I can't tell the body, we're going off the top rope next year. The body can be like, fuck you.

We couldn't stand up. Prepare your body. Yeah. But I'm getting my mind strong. I'm getting my mind like, because if I can start seeing it up here. Yeah. Because I remember this. Somebody used to be like, have you ever imagined yourself skinny?

I couldn't see it. That's why I shaved my face. Okay. I couldn't even imagine it. Like at my biggest, I couldn't imagine myself skinny. You know what I mean? Yeah. So it's like, but I realized I was trying to imagine.

I was trying, my mind wasn't ready to go that far. My body already didn't believe. anything my mind was doing. So my body double laugh in my mind thought that. You know what I mean? I had to start really small with just like little wings.

I'm jelly roll. Jelly roll is not skinny. You know what I mean? The body's like, fuck you, dude. So there would be little things. Like I'm not going to eat one thing besides what's on my diet plan today.

Like just today, like a drug addict. I went back to back to like how I would when I first got sober. I started applying all these real core cliche principles. Yeah, exactly. Just one day at a time. Just the old school like today.

What I love about, about real alcoholics and addicts. When you meet us, we're like, the dudes are, you like, if you ask them how many years they've been sober, they'll tell you, but they're like, all it really matters is I've been sober today.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, all of those years don't matter. They don't carry them like a trophy because they know that they could get up today. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like that was the mentality of like,

I'm going to eat good today. You know? Like even out here, I gave myself grace if I wanted to eat some of, um, Miss Robbins biscuits one morning. I would have. Those biscuits are good. And I was okay with that.

if I didn't. If I did or I didn't. But I woke up every day and I just instead I told my mind, I was like, you know what? Because I gave myself the choice to eat the biscuits, I'm not. Today I'm going to choose. Today I'm going to choose. You know what I mean? Like, and I just continue to, you know, I just continue to put. So I still live that very today thing, especially with my eating. Yeah. Like, I just got to eat good today. That's all that really matters. I got to make good decisions. Like I got to, the only food decision I got to make today is one. It's dinner and I'm going to make a good one. You know what I mean? Like it's my next meal. Just that's all matters. Yeah. No, I like that. It's a yeah, I mean, it just has me wondering. So 500 pounds,

need help to get up, all this. And this is after you actually made some, some gains. You did the 5K. Where does it turn into like an ultramarathon? Ooh, you know what I mean? Where does that happen? Is it, is it the small winds along the way? That's the, ooh, I'm sorry to cut you off, but you just made me see a good example because we talked about it privately. Yeah. I've told you, I've said Cam Haynes a message. We should, I don't know if we should post it now or save it for a real good time. But when I see you, I'm like, bro, we're going to run an ultramarathon together one day. Like, I'm that dialed into this thing, you know?

And I think it's like, once again, it's me telling my mind. My mind is already like, you're going to do a marathon marathon. But my mind's also, but my mind's smart enough. That's what it's thinking forward. But backwards, it's telling the body, you're just getting ready for a half marathon of March baby. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

You just tell yourself you're going to, because you know what? You're going to do it. Well, it's, it's like. It's like the eating. It's one day to time. It's like you can't do that half marathon unless you can do a run every day. For sure. Or get out there to get some steps or be active or eat well.

You're not going to do that unless you do today. Today. Exactly. It starts with breakfast. I got to eat. Okay. It starts to waking up. I still fast and run for my first because I still do three to five a day.

So it's easier that way for me. So I still just wake up, drink a little water, hop on a treadmill, go get in the neighborhood. You know what I mean? Like, okay, I won that first battle. First battle done. I only got one other battle. I'm going to go eat breakfast and I've already, and at that point I done did my run. So all I'm thinking about on my run is how good breakfast is going to be.

Not a bad one. I don't want to put biscuits in me after I ran. I just went out here and fought all my demons this morning. You think I want a biscuit? Dude, I just conquered. I beat the devil this morning. No, I won't get. Somebody got a kale salad for me this morning.

I got house money right now. Yeah, it's like I'm on the up. You know, so it's like I'm already winning. Right. The momentum is pushing. You know what I mean? And this is my biggest thing to big people. And this is where I want to be really honest with them.

That first year, if you're over 500 pounds or 400 pounds, it's really miserable. You don't enjoy one bit of the process besides the besides what you see happening. You will enjoy that. But every walk, miserable. Yeah.

The pain, miserable, sleeping, hard, posture, everything. I mean, it's just, it's not fun. You're breathing so hard on your walks and sometimes you can't think about nothing but just that. Like, you know, like, you're not even getting to enjoy thinking on your walk. Right. You're just like, one breath in, one breath out.

But I just had to keep reminding my sense. myself, man, I did this to me. This shouldn't be easy. I deserve this. You know what I mean? Like I should, in fact, I want to remember every moment I'm feeling on here. And I said this early when I started. One day I was out there and I was like, my wife said, how was your run? I was like, I thought I was going to die out there today. You know, and I was walking. And the next day when I felt that again, it was the first time I looked at it different. It was your lact, uh, lactic muscle. Yeah. Mentality. Right. I looked at all of a sudden when it started when I really thought I was like, when I felt like my heart was going to go out of my throat. I said, it was. I said, speed up. Test that. Lean into it. See what it does. Yeah. I bet it's resilient.

I bet it's strong. You know what I'm saying? Like I bet it you know what it is? This isn't my heart fixing to blow. It's it getting strong. Right. I'm actually feeling the growth of my heart right now. Like this is, I feel it pushing bad shit out.

Like I could feel it. Then I started thinking it that way. Feeling it that way. Like, ooh, this is the good stuff. I'm in the money now. You know what I mean? And just super leaning into that kind of stuff. Hitting the hill first.

Me, you talk about that. Right. like walking straight up that hill. It's just, yeah, it's just that, what message are you telling yourself? What message are, what's the story you're telling yourself? The story you're telling yourself. Yeah, I like that.