Canadian True Crime - 102 The Crimes of Noel Winters

Episode Date: December 15, 2021

NEW BRUNSWICK  | In 1984, human remains were found in garbage bags in a dump in New Brunswick. The story that would unravel would shock locals and leave a lasting legacy on the province.Resources referenced:Review of “Bodies in the Backyard” - by Rachel M Friars on True Crime Index - Twitter: @TrueCrimeIndex Email: [e-mail] in the Backyard by Brian O’NeillMontreal’s Irish Mafia: The True Story of the Infamous West End Gang by Darcy O’Connor Thanks for supporting our sponsors!See the special offer codes here Ad-free episodes:All episodes, ad-free and often early on Patreon and Supercast. Credits: Research: Haley GrayAdditional research and writing: Kristi LeeSpecial thanks to Rachel M Friars for help with local knowledgeAudio editing and production: We Talk of Dreams Disclaimer voiced by the host of TrueAll credits and information sources can be found on the page for this episode at canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi there! Just letting you know that this is the last episode of the year before we take a short break over the holidays. I'll see you back on January 15th with a series that will be released a week apart, so you'll still get two episodes in January and another one on February 1st. Until then, I don't just want to wish you happy holidays because even though this holiday season doesn't feel quite as dark as last year did, we're all still struggling with difficulties and hardships and a general feeling of things just not being right. So instead, wherever you're listening from, I want to wish you restful sleep, good health, moments of peace and glimpses of hope. All the best to you and your loved ones.

Canadian True Crime is a completely independent production, funded mainly through advertising. The podcast often has course language and disturbing content, and it's not for everyone. Additional content warning. While not the focus of this case, this episode does include mention of the murder of a dog. No graphic details are given, but please take care when listening. Today's case takes place in the province of New Brunswick, one of the four Atlantic provinces on Canada's east coast. New Brunswick shares a border with the US state of Maine. In the south of the province is a tiny rural community called Browns Flat. Located about

45 kilometres by car from the city of St John, it's a busy, riverside resort community in the summer. But in the winter, it's a sleepy village. And on the winter day of February 13th, 1984, employees at the Browns Flat dump were moving garbage bags for burning, something that they did about once or twice a week. But this trip would be one they would never forget. Two teenagers had been there foraging for valuables and saw what looked like a human arm fall out of a bag. They alerted the dump employees and took off. An employee tore the bag open and saw something even more disturbing, a human head. They didn't quite know what to do and some of the bags had already started burning, so the fire was quickly extinguished

in case there were more remains. The RCMP were called to investigate the grisly discovery and immediately started the task of searching the dump to see if there were any other body parts. They even used a tracking dog, a German shepherd named Fred, who cut his little paws on some broken glass and wasn't able to continue. After searching for a few days, the RCMP uncovered more body parts, although some were in bags that had already been burned in the fire. The remains were sent to St John for autopsy and forensic investigation. The body parts were reportedly so badly cut up and hacked at that at first the coroner assumed it was just one body, describing it to the leader post as a ruddy mess. Quote, I've seen some

pretty morbid stuff in my time, but never have I seen anything like this outside wartime. But during the autopsy, it was discovered that the remains belonged to two separate bodies, although only one head was recovered, the other was still missing. The parts contained gunshot wounds, which the coroner determined was likely the cause of death. But at this point, neither of the bodies had been identified. The detective inspector in charge of the investigation told the media that they were getting closer to identification, but what they did know at that point was they had a double homicide on their hands. The discovery made top news in the local area, a very small community with only about 400 residents at the time. Neighbours were stunned and

wondered if the crime was committed in the local area by someone who also lived local. There were a few factors that seemed to indicate that it was. While the local community in Browns Flat was fairly quiet, especially in the winter, the dump was always busy. People were known to come from as far away as the city of St John to dump their garbage there. And neighbours paid little attention to the cars and trucks that drove through to the dump, because the site wasn't locked up. There were no fences or gates, and it was just free access. It could have been anyone who dropped the bags off. Through fingerprints and facial characteristics, the police identified one of the bodies fairly quickly. It belonged to James Keenan, known as Jimmy, a 32-year-old man from

the city of St John. That same day, Jimmy's car was found abandoned in a local motel parking lot. The police determined that at the time, Jimmy was living at his father's house, so they took a tracking dog over there to have a sniff around. Jimmy's father, James, wasn't home. In fact, he was missing too. Police continued to investigate, and it didn't take long before they learned that the last time Jimmy had been seen was two days before the remains were found. And he was with his father, James, at the house of a fairly prominent drug dealer and well-known criminal in the area. This revelation would open up a Pandora's box that would leave a lasting impact on the province of New Brunswick.

In that same area of southern New Brunswick is the resort town of Crystal Beach. Located on the shore of the Kingston Peninsula, a large piece of land that juts out and is surrounded by a winding river on three sides. And in 1984, a 23-year-old named Mary Beth was living there with her boyfriend on a large property of about an acre. On that property was the main cottage or holiday home that had two stories and overlooked the St John River. And there were also three separate cabins on the grounds which were used as a place for friends to stay or rented out to tourists. While the location and the property sounds perfect, Mary Beth's relationship was not. Her boyfriend was that prominent drug dealer and notorious criminal that Jimmy and James Keenan

were last seen with. His name was Noel Winters. And at 34 years old, he was 11 years older than Mary Beth. Noel Winters was one of four children born in St John, with a father who worked at the St John Port as a longshoreman. According to an excerpt from the book Bodies in the Backyard by Brian O'Neill, Noel was an active child who loved the water and was known for his ability to be polite and charming when he needed to be. But something troubled him. From a young age, he was at the principal's office a lot and was known for devising schemes like stealing milk money off the neighbour's porch. If the neighbour left milk tickets instead of cash, Noel would simply take them to the local store and persuade the cashier to exchange them for cash, giving a

story about how his mother already had too much milk. His troubles intensified in high school. In junior high, Noel started fighting bullies, but he quickly realised how good it felt to be the centre of attention, known for being a good fighter someone who won. Before long, he started fighting with everyone to get what he wanted, demonstrating an uncontrolled fighting rage that was described as fierce. Because of his repeated incidents of severely beating his opponent, he became known as the toughest guy in school. No one wanted to cross Noel Winters. After only one year of high school, he almost got into a fistfight with a teacher and he quit, likely before he could be expelled. His grades were not great anyway. And after that,

he continued as a street fighter whenever the opportunity arose. Noel was known to be someone who liked to stay in shape. He took up karate, sports and other physical pursuits which meant he was ready for whenever he wanted or needed to fight someone. At some point, what was once occasional drug use turned into a serious and hazardous habit, which exposed him to figures in the criminal underworld in St John. Noel would end up with an extensive criminal history, starting from when he was just 16 years old. His first conviction was for breaking and entering, and he was sentenced to a month in jail. But after he was released, he went right back to the criminal life, selling the items he stole for cash and meeting new people who were inclined

towards criminality like he was along the way. Noel was getting a glimpse into St John's underground criminal world and he liked everything he saw. His first conviction for violent crime happened at age 17. Noel was hanging outside a theatre with a group of rowdy friends and when the theatre manager came and asked him to be quiet, Noel took great offence. He wrestled the manager to the ground and encouraged his friends to join in and kick him. The manager ended up with a fractured wrist and Noel was charged with assault causing bodily harm. But while this was his first violent crime, it certainly would not be his last. The book Bodies in the Backyard describes how after that, Noel got into fraudulently cashing checks and dabbling in insurance fraud jobs. This involved

stealing people's cars and then making them disappear so he could get a cut of the owner's insurance payout. Over the next years, Noel would collect convictions for burglary, robbery, theft, property damage and drug possession and after each stint in jail, he got out and went right back to it. At night, he earned extra cash by working security for nightclubs and he loved to spend it gambling. By the late 1960s, Noel had started selling drugs to further support his lifestyle and was starting to establish a reputation as a serious member of the St John criminal world, someone who was not to be trifled with. Noel had been a big fan of guns since childhood, thanks to family hunting trips. But now, he wanted something serious,

something to protect himself with or use to enforce when a deal went sideways, something you couldn't buy in a store. Through his widening network of criminal and motorcycle gangs, he was able to buy a submachine gun for protection and enforcement. For a time, Noel Winters and a group of his criminal friends left the east coast of Canada to head to British Columbia on the west coast. According to the book Bodies in the Backyard, they travelled via Toronto because Noel's brother was in prison at the notoriously tough Don jail. The gang planned to break him out, but when they got to the jail, they were intimidated by the size and security of the building and decided to abandon the plan

to break out the brother. The gang set off again and made it to Vancouver, where Noel was soon arrested after he was caught in his latest con. He had somehow obtained a master key for parking meters that allowed him to break into each one and steal the money. Possessing such a key was illegal and he was convicted and sentenced to three months prison in Vancouver. When he was released, whatever it was that lured him to British Columbia was gone, so Noel returned to St John. He knew there was a warrant out for his arrest there for a previous break and enter, and while he tried to keep a low profile, he was becoming infamous in the area. It wasn't long before the RCMP located and arrested him.

By this point, Noel's reputation in St John was solidified, firstly for his love of guns and fast motorbikes, but also for his explosive temper that he appeared unable to control, as well as his propensity for violence. And his reputation now went far beyond just the criminal underworld, with average local residents knowing of Noel Winters. In a blog post for truecrimeindex.ca, author Rachel M. Friars wrote that in a city that knew everyone, particularly the ones to stay away everyone knew Noel Winters. Everyone had seen him fight, seen him get arrested, or was warned to cross the street if they saw him coming. He was always up to something beyond the drugs and the gambling. He once stole a load

of dynamite from the St John power commission, hiding sticks and caches all over the city. He used two sticks to attempt to blow up the local jail in Uptown St John, but he only succeeded in blowing off the door. The RCMP agreed not to charge him if he revealed where the rest of the dynamite lay hidden. Most everyone who grew up in the city at the time has a story about Noel. It wasn't long before Noel had roped in other local criminals to his operations, forming a group that would be known as the Noel Winters Gang, just the mere mention of his name would intimidate people. He continued to resort to violence to fix whatever problem came his way. Noel was considered good-looking for the time and was said to have scrubbed up well, and with his

propensity to be charming and polite and charismatic, he was able to persuade women to go out with him. But when another man showed interest in a woman Noel was also interested in, it would often end in bloodshed. By 1984, 34-year-old Noel Winters was doing well. He had bought a cottage or holiday home in the resort town of Crystal Beach, on the Kingston Peninsula, and was living there with his 23-year-old girlfriend, Mary Beth. He was renovating the property with Mary Beth's help, and Noel would often ask his friends and associates to come and help out with the renovations, too. In exchange, they would get to hang out at the property. After all, the cottage was located

in a lovely spot, with views of the hills and the St John River. And, of course, it all came with the added benefit of being on Noel's good side. But for Mary Beth, life with Noel was anything but lovely. He was the boss, and she witnessed a lot. She would later report that living with him was violent and unpredictable. He often beat her physically, threatened her with knives and loaded guns, and was especially violent when he'd been drinking. Mary Beth learned the hard way that, for her own safety, it was best to stay out of his way when he was drinking. Noel also had several dobermans that he had trained to attack. He loved to feed the dogs,

he loved to feed his dogs live gerbils and crows just for shock value, and then he would sick them on people just for laughs. Noel was, by this time, an experienced criminal, and while he was still considered a violent rager in the city of St John, he was very careful not to disturb the area where he lived, in the resort town of Crystal Beach. Several of his neighbours would describe him to the media as polite and well-spoken, a perfect gentleman. One neighbour would report that one night she heard gunshots from Noel's property, and when she asked him about it, he waved it off, telling her that it was target practice. The neighbour didn't think anything else of it.

When it came to those two bodies discarded at the dump, one had been identified as 32-year-old Jimmy Keenan, but because only one head had been recovered, it was taking longer to confirm the identity of the second set of remains. The RCMP would never recover that second head, but they were now working under the assumption that the second body was likely to have belonged to Jimmy's missing father, James Keenan. The last time either man had been seen was at the home of Noel Winters. It was a great lead, but investigators had more work to do. But then they received tips that there were two other bodies buried on Noel Winters' property.

The RCMP wanted to start investigating, but it was February, the ground was frozen, and there was a lot of snow in the heavy underbrush. They decided to wait a month or two to start digging, but they had enough to keep them occupied for now. Do you have a passion project that you're ready to take to the next level? SquareSpace makes it easy for anyone to create an engaging web presence, grow a brand and sell anything, from your products to the content you create and even your time. When I launched this passion project six years ago, I needed some kind of online hub to manage all the non-podcasting tasks that come with podcasting. I chose SquareSpace because it's an

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home page. Every SquareSpace website and online store includes SEO tools to help you maximize your visibility in search engines. And I love the powerful insights I can get from the analytics tools, helping me better understand who's visiting the site, where they came from and how they're interacting with it. Do you have a passion project or business idea or something to sell? Go to squarespace.com slash ctc for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code CTC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com slash ctc with offer code CTC, and get your passion project off the ground today. As far as the locals knew, the first set of remains found at the dump had been identified

as 32-year-old Jimmy Keenan, and the authorities were still working on identifying the second. But just four days after that shocking discovery at the dump, Noel Winter's girlfriend, Mary Beth, made the very courageous and likely life-threatening decision to come forward and share what she knew with the RCMP. She knew what had happened to Jimmy and James Keenan, because she was there. She witnessed it firsthand, and Noel Winter's was the person at the centre of it all. Not much has been disclosed about how Mary Beth approached the police, but she would have been absolutely terrified. News reports would state that a witness went into 24-hour protection, and although they didn't identify who that witness was, Mary Beth was the only one who

saw firsthand what happened. After hearing her story, the RCMP arrested Noel Winter's relatively peacefully, reportedly pulling over the car that he was driving. He was charged with the second-degree murder of Jimmy Keenan, and there was a second arrest also. A man named Paul Hines was charged with aiding and abetting. The next week, the second body was confirmed as belonging to Jimmy's father, 64-year-old James Keenan. Noel Winter's was charged with another count of second-degree murder. This was Southern New Brunswick, made up of small communities where nothing like this ever happened. They didn't see this kind of news, and residents were rocked. Not only was it sensational, but it was also terrifying that something like this happened in the local area,

and it was a local living among them who was responsible. Those rumours of the bodies on Noel's property were still swirling around, as the RCMP waited for the ground to thaw. Everyone was on edge about what else might be uncovered. But before the digging began, the preliminary hearing was held, where the evidence is presented and a decision is made on whether there's enough evidence to go to trial. The star witness was, of course, Noel's girlfriend, Mary Beth, and she told the court a shocking tale. Jimmy Keenan was around the same age as Noel, both in their early 30s, and they had known each other for a few years. In the months leading up to his death, Jimmy was one of the people helping Noel

out with his cottage renovations. The news archives give minimal information about Jimmy, and even less about his father James. But what we do know is that Jimmy Keenan was a former bartender who was now doing the masonry work at Noel's property. Jimmy was separated from his wife, and while she kept custody of their young son, he still saw him often. And until he got back on his feet, Jimmy was living with his father James. On February 11, 1984, two days before the dump discovery, Jimmy told his dad that he wanted to take him over to Noel's to show off the masonry work he'd done. Masonry is the craft of building and fabricating with stone, clay, brick, or concrete blocks, and Jimmy was clearly proud of his craftsmanship. James said sure, and Jimmy called

Noel's house to give him the heads up. Mary Beth answered the phone, and Jimmy told her that they wanted to drop by and asked if she and Noel would be around that afternoon. According to the bodies in the backyard book, Mary Beth knew from past experience that Noel got angry at her when people phoned, and she answered without giving him a chance to speak, so she asked Jimmy to wait on the line so she could go and get Noel. Noel took the phone, and Jimmy asked if he could bring over his dad, promising to bring rye whiskey and beer as well, and they could all have a few drinks together at the same time. Noel agreed. Not long after that, 32-year-old Jimmy showed up with his 64-year-old father, James,

along with the beverages they'd promised. As Jimmy showed his work to his father, the three men started drinking heavily. The elder Kenan, James, noticed that there were several guns in the house, including two handguns on the table, a rifle leaning against a wall, and another rifle in a different room. When Noel stepped away, James looked at his son and asked quietly, what's with all the guns? Jimmy assured his father that he didn't want to know. Mary Beth was painting at the time, and needed the three men to help her move some items around. They continued to drink heavily as they worked. James, the father, was drinking the most, and became drunk the fastest, wobbling as he walked.

This next part has been pieced together from both Mary Beth's testimony and an excerpt from The Bodies in the Backyard book. After several hours, all three men were intoxicated. Mary Beth knew from experience that Noel was drunk, because he started being hostile and nasty towards her. It had happened many times before. In fact, they had an agreement that Noel wasn't going to drink around her because his personality changed, and he became violent. So, when Mary Beth noticed his change in behavior, she started to worry about what trouble might be coming. And it didn't take long. The elder Kenan, James, started drunkenly reminiscing about Noel's late father, who he seemed to have known back in the day. When he started calling Noel

by his father's name, Danny, Noel was not pleased as it brought up memories of his father that made him sad. According to Mary Beth, he sat for a while and she thought she saw tears in his eyes which was a first. She'd never seen him cry. Then, suddenly, Noel got up and pretended to punch above James' head as if to threaten him in a playful way. He added, I'm thinking of somebody I hate. The younger Kenan, Jimmy, drunkenly thought that Noel was seriously intending on hurting his father and yelled at him not to. Noel reassured Jimmy that he wasn't going to hurt James, but added he could if he wanted to, and there wasn't anything Jimmy could do about it. Jimmy replied, I know I can't do anything about it, but you know he's

my father. Don't hurt him. By this point, Jimmy was standing up, holding the whiskey bottle, leaning in a bit towards Noel. All three men were very drunk, and it didn't take much for Noel to perceive Jimmy as a threat. He jumped up, grabbed a knife that he kept on his belt, and ordered Jimmy never to talk to him like that again. Jimmy was well aware of Noel's reputation for going from zero to fight in no time at all, especially when he'd been drinking. And he didn't want that because of a stupid drunken misinterpretation. He tried to persuade Noel to calm down, but it had the opposite effect. Noel only became more agitated and erratic, hitting the side of his own head while provoking Jimmy. Go ahead, hit me here. Jimmy refused, but Noel continued to dare

him to do it. Mary Beth had been observing the men, their conversation and behavior rapidly getting worse the more drunk they got. She realized that things were going south quickly, and she knew how violent Noel could be, especially when drunk. She also knew there were guns in the house that Noel would go and grab whenever he wanted. She knew that she likely couldn't stop Noel's behavior from escalating, but there was something she could do in secret. While the three men were still arguing amongst themselves, Mary Beth went and quietly gathered the guns and hid them. She then went around the house looking for anything else that could be used as a weapon, including a shovel, and she hid them too. She had learned the hard way that

Noel would soon be looking for a weapon, and she didn't want to make it easy for him. When Mary Beth returned to the living room, Noel was still threatening Jimmy with his knife, while Jimmy's father James lay in the corner of the room, too drunk to appreciate the danger of the situation he was in. Jimmy continued to beg Noel to calm down, this time trying out a different approach, trying to turn it into a joke, saying, stop it, you goof! But it was too late. Noel was seeing red, that uncontrollable rage that he was known for was starting to surface. He punched Jimmy, sending him stumbling back onto the floor. Noel then stood over him, knife in hand, yelling. Jimmy was protesting by this point, saying anything he could that might convince Noel

that he didn't mean to upset him. But Noel suddenly slashed the knife at Jimmy's neck, nicking it superficially. He then grabbed a nearby hammer, shook it threateningly at Jimmy, and accused him of planning to hit Noel with it. Jimmy yelled out in protest, no! In court, Mary Beth had a hard time telling the story, and the Vancouver Sun reported that she was sobbing hysterically during parts of her testimony. But she continued, telling the court that Noel didn't go searching for his guns. Instead, he ordered her to bring him his nine mil Luger pistol. By this point, Jimmy was pleading with Noel, quote, please, we love you, you're like family, but Noel didn't care. He raised the pistol to Jimmy's head and pulled

the trigger. But for some reason, the gun didn't fire. Mary Beth was ordered to get another one of the guns and bring it to Noel. She was clearly under coercive control and didn't have much time to think. But what she did know was that her own life would definitely be in danger if she didn't do as Noel said. So she got the second gun. Noel grabbed it off her and fired it between Jimmy's legs, hitting him in the thigh. Jimmy started crying, Mary Beth heard another shot, and then the crying stopped. 32 year old Jimmy Keenan, father of a young son, was dead. At this point, his father James was still very drunk. Mary Beth described him as nearly incoherent. Noel comforted him for a few minutes. Then he took Mary Beth aside

and told her that because James had witnessed what had happened, he would have to die too. He dragged the elder Keenan across the room, and Mary heard him saying something about being sorry, and then there was a gunshot. James Keenan had been shot in the head. Noel Winters had killed the father and son and now had to dispose of their bodies. He had a friend who he knew would help, so he picked up the phone. At about three in the morning, 28 year old Paul Hines arrived, and together the two men dragged the bodies to the backyard. Using two handsaws and an axe, they dismembered the bodies and threw the parts into garbage bags. According to reporting in McLean's magazine, Noel then drove the remains to the dump at Browns Flat.

Now, locals from New Brunswick will know that there is no way to drive that route without taking a ferry, because the communities on the Kingston Peninsula, where Crystal Beaches located are very remote, and Browns Flat is on the other side of that winding St John River. The ferry usually operated 24 hours, and Noel would have been able to drive straight on and then straight off on the other side, and he may have been able to do it without speaking to anyone or being noticed by anyone. And then he drove right into the unsecured area that is the Browns Flat dump, discarding the bags of body parts there. He would have assumed that they would get lost in a sea of garbage bags, but instead they would discovered a day later.

As Mary Beth was describing the horrors of what she saw that night, Noel interrupted her testimony several times and had to be restrained. The interruptions only stopped when the judge threatened to have him gagged. The Vancouver Sun reported on testimony given by a man named Stephen, who was a friend of Noel's and had an interesting conversation with him in the days after the bodies had been discovered, before Noel's arrest. Noel could see that things weren't going his way, and he planned to have a final shootout with the RCMP when they inevitably came knocking. He spoke of a plan to go to a hardware store, grab as much ammunition as he could, and make a last stand. Luckily the RCMP managed to catch him as he was driving, so the plan went

nowhere. When it came to the defences side of the argument at the preliminary hearing, they tried to argue that Jimmy and James Keenan taunted Noel into a blind rage, but this was not consistent with the testimony that Mary Beth had essentially risked her life to give. The preliminary hearing proved that there was definitely enough evidence to go to trial. In fact, it was enough evidence that Noel Winters decided to plead guilty. Things happened quickly in the New Brunswick court system in 1984, and the sentencing hearing was the following week. The courtroom was filled to capacity with people there to see the spectacle of the infamous local criminal underworld figure pleading guilty. It was a high security risk,

and spectators were searched by guards and scanned with metal detectors before they were allowed in. Noel Winters was completely unmoved. He wasn't seen to be showing any remorse, and at one point he actually yawned. The Edmonton Journal described him as being alternatively quiet, cocky, and angry during the hearing. While these days we often find profiles of victims and survivors in the media, it hasn't always been like that. Back in the 1980s, crime reporting was in peak sensationalism, and the focus was often on the offender and the most shocking details of the crimes they committed, with the victims and survivors reduced to mere sideline characters. In this case, it was all about Noel Winters, and there was very little written

about Jimmy Kenan's life and even less about his father James. And there was no reporting on any victim impact statements that may have been given at sentencing. It's a shame. At sentencing, Justice William Hoyt told the court that the murders were just about as horrendous a crime as one could imagine, and described Noel as a cold-blooded killer who showed no remorse. He was sentenced to two concurrent life sentences with no chance of parole for 22 years. A crowd of photographers had gathered outside the courtroom, and as Noel Winters was led away in handcuffs after sentencing, he told them, quote, I'd give you a smile, boys, but I have my two front teeth missing. Noel Winters would be 56 years old before he would have been eligible for parole,

but he would never make it that far. The 34-year-old was taken to Dorchester Penitentiary in Dorchester, New Brunswick, where he was kept away from the general population for the first month. The trial for the man charged with aiding and abetting him, Paul Hines, would start within a month or two. But before that, there was a search to be done. The ground was starting to thaw on Noel's property, and the RCMP were finalising their game plan to see if there was any truth to the rumours that there were two additional bodies buried there. On April 23, 1984, they were finally able to search the grounds, and in a wooded area about 500 metres from Noel's house, they discovered a shallow grave.

They started digging. Buried about a metre down were the partially decomposed bodies of a man and a woman and a dog. The man's back and throat had multiple visible knife wounds, and it looked as though his throat had been slashed. The woman's body was covered in mud and would need to be autopsy to find the cause of death. It was clear that the dog had been shot. According to the rumours that had been going around, the couple were thought to be from Quebec and had stayed in one of those visitor cabins on Noel's property the previous fall. The police refused to comment on the identities until they were confirmed. Jack McLaughlin was a hit man for hire from Montreal, Quebec. The 45-year-old was known to

be an enforcer for the West End gang, a large criminal organisation who operated mainly in the West End of Montreal, and the word on the street was that Jack was also associated with the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club. According to the book Montreal's Irish Mafia, the true story of the infamous West End gang by Darcy O'Connor, Jack was suspected in at least a dozen hits of underworld figures, and at one time was bodyguard for the gang's kingpin. Their unofficial headquarters were at a Montreal Hotel Motel called the Cavalier, and Jack McLaughlin conducted his business from one of the rooms there. The book details that Jack seemed to love his job, so much so that he was starting to exhibit psychopathic or antisocial behaviour. Not only did he revel in his paid

hit jobs, but he was also known to have murdered others just because he wanted to. In 1983, the year before those bodies were found at the dump, the police were investigating the murder of a former Outlawz motorcycle gang member called Michael French, also known as Crazy Mike. Mike had been shot in the head, and his body had been found in a pet cemetery in the Montreal area, and the last time he was seen alive was at the Hotel Motel where Jack McLaughlin lived. So, the police were looking for Jack in connection with that murder, but he was also wanted for an alleged parole violation, possession of a concealed weapon. The police were starting to focus their attention on the goings-on at the Motel, and the gang was starting to see Jack as a liability.

According to reporting by the Montreal Gazette, it was decided that Jack needed to move away from the Motel, so he rented an apartment in a suburb of Montreal called La Salle. Jack had a girlfriend who came with him, her name was Maria Hillerbrand, and at 25 years old, she was 20 years younger than him. Maria had originally immigrated to Canada from Austria with her family when she was a baby, settling in Hamilton, Ontario. Again, not much has been reported about Maria. The only thing that is known about how she became entangled with a well-known gang in Montreal, Quebec, is what her mum would tell the Canadian press. Maria was a good girl who just got mixed up with the wrong people. The other thing that is known is that Maria never went anywhere without her beloved bulldog,

reportedly called Buster. In Montreal, she ended up tending bar at that same Hotel Motel that the West End gang used as its unofficial headquarters, and that's how she met Jack McLaughlin as well as his associates. At the time, Maria was wanted for possession of cocaine, so when Jack was told to move away from the hotel to a suburban apartment, it was a convenient solution for them both. During this time, Maria's mother came and visited her in Montreal and met Jack. She would describe him to the Montreal Gazette as very nice, noting that he took them to eat at some very expensive restaurants. Maria's mother added that Jack had lots of cash on him which worried her,

but he left her with a decent enough first impression. While they lived at that apartment, Maria and Jack were known to drink a lot and make noise. For someone who was supposed to be lying low, Jack wasn't very good at it. He boasted to friends that he attended the funeral of Yves Bouteau, the head of the Hell's Angels motorcycle gang's Quebec chapter who had been murdered by a drug dealer. There was heavy police attendance at that funeral and Jack boasted that he watched it undetected from the safety of a gang member's van parked outside. Gang leaders didn't know what to do with Jack. He was good at his job, but he was becoming a real liability, so they decided to send the pair to New Brunswick for a

bit to stay on the property of a friend of the gang, Knoll Winters. It was good timing. As it turned out, the police arrived at the apartment very soon after the couple vacated it. In New Brunswick, Jack McLaughlin was instructed to keep to himself at Knoll's place while there was heat on the gang in Montreal. To quote from the book Montreal's Irish Mafia, Jack McLaughlin's bloodlust travelled with him and over the next few months he committed several murders in New Brunswick, none of which were gangland related. No further details were given about these murders. A local store owner close to Knoll's property remembered seeing Jack and Maria and her dog Buster for a few weeks, describing Jack as tall, heavy set and quiet and Maria as younger,

slim and more talkative. They said they were there for hunting season, but suddenly before the end of November 1983, they seemed to just vanish. To those who had interacted with the couple, it seemed odd because hunting season wasn't over yet. Maria's mother would tell the Montreal Gazette that she'd received a call from Maria before that, promising that she would be home for Christmas as usual. But she didn't make it, no phone call, no card. Maria's mum knew that something was wrong and reported her daughter missing in the new year. The rumours about Jack McLaughlin and Maria Hillerbrand began at around the same time that the bodies of Jimmy and James Keenan were discovered at the dump, that cold February day. According to the rumours,

Jack and Maria had been stabbed to death. And when Maria's mother heard about the two bodies that had been found in the shallow grave, along with the dog, she was beside herself, telling the Montreal Gazette that it had to be Maria. Quote, Maria loved that dog, he was so cute and she loved to play with him. Just 14 hours after it was announced that two bodies had been dug up on his property, before they'd even been identified, there was a shocking discovery at Dorchester Penitentiary. 34-year-old Noel Winters was found dead in his cell. Guards had tried to revive him, but it was too late. Noel Winters had died by suicide, it appeared. He obviously knew what was

coming. And the next day, the bodies were positively identified as belonging to 45-year-old Jack McLaughlin and 25-year-old Maria Hillerbrand. They had both been stabbed to death, just as the rumours suggested. It was already known that the dog had died of a gunshot wound. Now, the RCMP had to investigate what happened to them, but according to reporting by Margo McPherson for McClain's magazine, they already had a theory thanks to the Montreal police. They believed that the reason Jack McLaughlin went to New Brunswick was a hit job to kill Noel Winters after he reportedly received a drug shipment from the West End gang but didn't pay for it. Because of the criminal elements involved,

this rumour would be difficult to verify. Just six days after the bodies in the backyard had been identified, Paul Hines went to trial for aiding and abetting Noel Winters as he dismembered and disposed of the bodies of Jimmy and James Keenan. At this trial, Mary Beth testified again, and as part of that testimony she spoke about Maria and Jack, because Paul Hines had aided and abetted with those murders too, three months beforehand. According to Mary Beth's testimony, Noel welcomed Jack and Maria to lay low in the cabin on his property as a favour to their mutual gangland friends. But at the same time, Noel was scared of Jack. He believed that the hitman was responsible for the disappearance of two of his criminal gang friends, a local drug dealer named

Giggy Dowl and his associate Jacques Dugue, who had gone missing the year beforehand. And Noel soon became paranoid that the real reason Jack McLaughlin was sent to New Brunswick was to murder him too. According to evidence presented at Paul Hines' trial for aiding and abetting, three months before the bodies had been discovered in the dump, Paul drove Noel and Jack McLaughlin home from a dance one night, when suddenly, out of nowhere, Noel took a knife and stabbed Jack to death in the truck. Noel instructed Paul to continue driving to the cottage, and by the time they arrived, he announced that they would need to kill Maria too, because he couldn't think up how to explain Jack's absence to her. Noel stabbed Maria to death and then shot

her bulldog Buster. Noel asked Paul Hines to stay and help bury the bodies on the property, and also called another man named Eddie Chamberlain, who was known as a local boxer and bouncer. They dragged the bodies to a spot, dug a fairly shallow grave, and buried them. And not even three months later, Noel had done it again. He'd murdered Jimmy and James Keenan in cold blood, and he told Mary Beth to call Paul Hines and Eddie Chamberlain yet again. They'd helped him bury the bodies last time, and now they would help him this time too. It appeared that Eddie was not available, so it was just Paul Hines who helped Noel dismember and dump the bodies. Paul told the court that he was terrified about what might happen if he refused.

The 28-year-old was found guilty of aiding and abetting. At sentencing, the judge reminded the court that the trial had only been for Paul's role in aiding and abetting after the murders of Jimmy and James Keenan. Paul's assistance during and after the murders of Jack McLaughlin and Maria Hillerbrand couldn't be taken into account for sentencing because that was a separate incident that happened three months beforehand. But the judge did note that had Paul gone to the RCMP after that murder, Jimmy and James Keenan would probably still be alive. And additionally, Paul still could have called the police after he learned what happened to the Keenans, but he didn't do anything. When Paul was asked if he had anything

he wanted to say, he apologized profusely, and according to the Canadian press, his voice was trembling as he told the court that he remembers what he did every night before he went to sleep. He added that he'd lost 20 pounds since the murders of the Keenans, and he knew that he would not be treated well in prison. He was sentenced to eight years. There's no evidence that anyone was ever charged or faced consequences for aiding and abetting Noel Winters in the murder of Jack McLaughlin and Maria Hillerbrand. Because Noel Winters died in custody, a coroner's inquest was held weeks later to determine whether it was by suicide or if he was murdered. Very few details about this were reported in the media, but according to the Montreal Gazette,

the jury concluded that he did die by suicide. An RCMP constable testified that because hitman Jack McLaughlin was connected with organized crime, had served time before at Dorchester, the same prison Noel Winters was in, and was considered influential with the prisoners there, Noel was scared about his safety while in prison. As author Darcy O'Connor wrote in his book Montreal's Irish Mafia, Noel killed himself, quote, presumably because he knew he was a dead man walking if he was ever incarcerated with any of Jack's friends. The reputation and crimes of Noel Winters has become folk law when it comes to New Brunswick locals, but many of the details of the story remain shrouded in mystery to this day. The case

inspired a 2014 movie called Black Fly, which was written and directed by Jason Burke, who lived just down the road from Noel and was 13 when he was arrested. But 20 years before that, a book written about the case in 1993 has somehow become woven into what has become the Noel Winters mythology and is widely considered an important part of the case, rightly or wrongly. It's of course Bodies in the Backyard, Canada's frenzy slayer by Brian O'Neill, and it's not just any true crime book. It was self-published and printed in New Brunswick with a limited print run, it sold out quickly and over the years it's become a much sought after item, a prized collectors item, something that has passed down through generations. And the reason

why it's reached this almost cult status is complicated. Book reviewers on Goodreads describe it as a painful read that suffers from a lack of editing, typos and bad formatting. On discussion forums, locals comment that the book contains misinformation and inaccuracies, but more than that, it apparently revels in the inclusion of incredibly gory details, as well as more than 40 graphic images that I imagine greatly upset the loved ones of the people Noel Winters murdered. Readers of the book describe feeling sick and triggered when they'd finished it. The Noel Winters case has been suggested to us many times over the years, but getting hold of a copy of the book is near impossible. There's only an excerpt or a preview

available on Amazon where hard copies of the book are unavailable and even the e-book version is unavailable. It says it's under review. There have apparently been several limited edition run reprints, one in 2015, but the book is snapped up so quickly that it soon becomes unavailable again, and because of the supply and demand dynamics it continues to be considered a rare treasure in high demand. In researching for this podcast we generally prefer to source court documents or news archives over books dedicated to a case, and given the number of times that the Noel Winters case has been suggested, we assumed that the information in the news archives would be plentiful, but it wasn't. There are no court documents available and the articles and reporting

about the case was quite sparse compared to other cases we've researched that happened at around the same time. Perhaps it's because the case wasn't widely known outside Atlantic Canada, but this lack of information combined with the rumors and stories along with the bodies in the backyard book has really kept the story alive even after all these years. As we were researching, one thing that caught our eye was a thoughtful and insightful review of the book by a new Brunswick local, Rachel M. Friars. You would have heard me quote her earlier in the episode. Rachel grew up on the Kingston Peninsula and knows all too well the effect Noel Winters had on the local community and continues to have, not to mention the frenzy around that book. Rachel is also the co-founder

of truecrimeindex.ca, a website dedicated to reviews and analysis of true crime books, and that's how we found her. Her first review was about her hometown case, Noel Winters, and her review of bodies in the backyard by Brian O'Neill was intertwined with her personal experiences growing up and reflections along the way. When I finished reading the review, it's in the show notes. I contacted Rachel and she graciously agreed to chat about it more on the show. So Rachel M. Friars, thank you so much for joining us today. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. You're very welcome. So you're a PhD student in English language and literature at Queens University in Kingston, Ontario, and your academic writing is being published with

Pellgrave McMillan and in the Journal of Neo-Victorian Studies, your writing is amazing. But you've also got a bit of a personal connection to the Noel Winters case. Are you able to tell us a bit about your childhood? Yes, of course. So yes, now I live in Ontario, but I grew up and lived until I was 18 in New Brunswick. And so I was born in St. John, New Brunswick, and my family has had a summer home on the Kingston Peninsula for my entire life. So I've grown up very, very close to the Noel Winters case. And, you know, it's really, I think important to emphasize when we talk about this case, how small of a community and small of a town, something like this occurred in. And I think the small town crime aspect of it made everyone feel very close to it because

you didn't have to look far to find someone who knew him, knew of him, knew his parents, his mother, went to school with him. I mean, it was all very, very close. And so we grew up hearing all the time about Noel Winters or, you know, about where he lived, what happened. And it was never secretive because it was kind of the salacious story. You know, I did grow up in a place where not a lot of interesting things happen. And so I think people were really fixated on this and continue to be because of how unheard of it was in such a small community. And because he had, you know, developed a reputation as being kind of notorious for, you know, being representative of this, this underworld of New Brunswick and St. John and having all of those connections.

And in your review, you say that you were acutely aware of Noel Winters or Noel Winters. Is that how you're saying it with your accent? Yes, yes. So it's very, we usually say it very fast. And so I grew up hearing sort of Noel Winters, like very, very quickly. I love it. And you said like, not because you saw the information on the TV or the paper, but through like the stories told through your, your parents or your grandfather. And I have to say like that makes sense because there really hasn't been a lot of reporting on the case. Right. So I, it's probably the first true crime story I ever remember hearing. And it's probably what kind of drew me into true crime. And I say in my review that this story is really connected oddly in my mind with the story of

Willie Pickton, who was apprehended in the early 2000s, because I was hearing about these cases kind of in tandem and at the same time. But yeah, constantly, you know, my, my grandfather was born and grew up in St. John and still lives there. And my dad was also born and grew up in St. John. And so they were both adults when this was happening. And they both knew, knew of this, this person. And so it was something that I grew up hearing about a lot because we had a cottage that was very near to where these events occurred. And so that was something that, you know, got brought up kind of repeatedly in my family. And then as I got older and, you know, moved to St. John myself, I started meeting people whose parents also had similar stories. So it's really something that,

that I've known about and thought about a lot. And as I got interested in true crime, and I think as the true crime wave has sort of started in the last five or seven years, it's been something I've continually started to think about because it's kind of like my hometown story. You mentioned some of the stories that he was involved in or some of the, the activities that he had done, like stealing dynamite from the St. John power commission and trying to blow up the local jail. Like I couldn't find any information on these events. Is this part of the local law or was this something that was in the, that book? Right. So the story of the jail is in the book. So basically, yeah, he, he stole, and I can't remember if it was him alone or with other people,

but he stole this dynamite from the power commission. And he set it off. He set off, I believe, one stick of dynamite at the jail and sort of blew the front of the jail kind of up. And no one was hurt, but it was just kind of a miracle that there was no one in the front facing cells or in the upper level at that time. So he did set off one stick of dynamite. And basically the book details how the police negotiated with him to return the rest of the dynamite and stop wreaking havoc in exchange for basically not getting in trouble for doing something like that. So that's one of the stories that I found so wildly compelling in the book, because it illustrates kind of how chaotic and notorious this person was before any of the,

the tragedies that happened later occurred. So he, he had a kind of reputation in the city for being a troublemaker, but also for being involved in, in things that were really dangerous, right? I mean, some of the people that he were involved in were from Montreal and there were a lot of drugs involved there. And so, you know, there was this undercurrent of danger that was very serious. Speaking of that book bodies in the backyard, now it's kind of become the makings of law and legend now. And it's, it's out of print. We weren't able to read any of it by like an excerpt that's available as a preview, but you have a copy of it. And I wanted you to, to tell me like, how did you come across that copy? And, and what do you know about the book?

Right. Okay. So yes, the book bodies in the backyard by Brian O'Neill was first locally published or self published in 1993. So a couple of years after the crimes. And it is, it's a really interesting book, not so much for its content, which has a lot of problems, but for its reputation in the city of St. John. So my copy is my grandfather's copy. And it's very special to me for a couple of reasons, both because it was his and now it's mine, but also because I have never, and I don't anticipate ever seeing, you know, a copy in stores basically, because the way that people come by these copies now is to find them randomly at book sales or to buy them for a lot of money. And people do pay in, you know, the city and in,

in New Brunswick, because it's such kind of a famous book. Now it's the only book you're right that details the crimes. And I think it's so famous because again, things like this really don't happen or didn't happen at that time. And because so many people knew people who were involved in the case. So there are a lot of familiar names there, not just related to no winners and, you know, his family or the people that he knew, but also prosecutors, police officers, friends, all kinds of people who were interviewed and spoken to for this book or who were involved in the case. And there are, I think, 40 photographs in the book. And some of them are very troubling. They're very dark. They're very tragic. And so I think that's one of kind of the main

problems with this book is that it leans very heavily on the salacious nature of true crime in that period. But it also makes no bones about featuring some of the more awful images that came out of that crime and that set of crimes. But again, it's also images of people that are familiar, street names are familiar, locations, all of that stuff. So people get really excited about reading about history, but also reading about people that they knew at about a crime that I think captivated a lot of people for a long time and still does. So the book is now very hard to find. And I mean, there are local book sales who will find copies that are donated and they will take them out and they will actually sell them separately for a high price. But basically,

it's one of those things that you kind of chance upon it's like a diamond in the rough. And if you find a copy, you're going to want to buy it because they're so hard to get your hands on. So yeah, my copy has been passed down and it's very special to me for that reason. But it's a really bizarre book because inside of it are so many inaccuracies, spelling mistakes, grammar issues. I mean, it's kind of hysterically, poorly constructed. As much as I respect, you know, Brian O'Neill for seeing the opportunity to actually write a history of this crime. It has a lot of issues. And so it's kind of funny that in spite of all that, it's still so valued by people in the city for its familiarity. Many of the criticisms of the book are that it's

sensationalistic, exploitative and not written very well. And I've gone through like a lot of the, there's a lot of people discussing it online, you know, in Facebook groups and on like forums and stuff. And a lot of people say that there's a lot of inaccuracies. And some people have described parts of it as bullshit. So when I was making the decision whether I should go ahead with this case, because a lot of people have requested that the podcast cover this case. I kind of thought, should I hold out for a copy of this book? Or should I just go by what the news archives have have published? And I just decided to go with the news archives. But can you give an example of any of the inaccuracies that you found in the book? I mean, the crime itself is the basic details

are pretty accurate. But it sort of reads like tabloid almost, or like a textual kind of list of the rumor mill, if that makes sense. So I think it, I think it relies a lot on kind of the sensational aspects of, of no winners and his reputation, and how that grew to be kind of larger and than life once, once a lot of the tragedies had appeared and come out. But I can't off the top of my head think of a definitive inaccuracy that I could actively disprove if that makes sense. Like I couldn't pull, pull evidence for you that would say like this specific thing is wrong. But I think on the whole, the entire thing kind of needs to be taken with a grain of salt. So or maybe many grains of salt, actually. And so I think from a research perspective,

I don't blame you for not using it, not only because you couldn't get your hands on it, but because it has a lot of question marks associated with it. But what I think is interesting, and I said this in my review, what's interesting is that people are fixated on it, not for its accuracies, because locals can kind of fill in the blanks themselves. And so it has this, like living memory with people who are able to contradict it, question it, or confirm it, right, to remember that they were there, to remember that they, you know, went and watched him being led into the courthouse, or, you know, they knew the prosecutor, they knew the police who were at his house, you know, digging. So that is, I think, what, what's important about the book and how it

sort of has this, like, living, breathing history in the city. If the book was so popular and everybody wants to get their hands on it, I can't find Brian O'Neill, the author, anywhere online. He had a Facebook page for the book and hasn't been touched in years. I wonder why he hasn't reprinted a bunch. Well, I think that they actually did do a reprint recently. I heard a little bit about that. But if you still can't find a copy, then I'm not sure how prolific that reprint was. But I think, and I'm just speculating, but I think, you know, as much as this case is really fascinating to a lot of people, it's also definitely a sore spot for a lot of people. And I talk about this in the review, the victims of which there are many,

not including, you know, the people who actually died. You know, they also have a certain right to accurate representation and privacy and respect. And so I think it was dangerous to publish a book that was this kind of poorly representative of those details. But maybe that's why it's so hard to find now, because it was in poor taste when it happened. And it kind of continues to be in many ways. Yeah. And like what you said about the victims and the treatment of the victims, we also noticed this that going through the news archives that very little was ever reported on the victims. They're like caricatures with very little color or backstory. And especially James Kenan Sr., the father, there's almost nothing about him in the news archives and a sentence or two

on the other victims. And the book seems to treat them the same from the excerpts that I've read. And it also doesn't seem to explain much of Noel's backstory to kind of give some insights into why or how he started on that kind of criminal journey. There's no information about like his family, other than they seem like a normal family. And you asked the same thing in your review, I wrote down the quote because I liked it was no winters, no winners and irredeemable. I try really hard. An irredeemable human being or did he fall through the cracks in ways that we can't begin to imagine? And that's just so, so interesting because obviously he ended up dealing drugs. What did you think about all of that? Well, I think that not to just turn around and champion

bodies in the backyard after I've talked about the ways that it's problematic. And I don't know if this was intentional, but I think implicitly what the book sort of does a good job of detailing is that substance abuse in the form of drugs or alcohol, whether it was using them or selling them or being involved with them really did contribute to the high stakes or the situations that led to these crimes. And the book and the media coverage of the crime doesn't do justice to any of the circumstances that really came together to produce a person who would be capable of such, such violence. And that's a disservice because I think it's a really big question mark around the case. And so this was something that was building and I think it was

a culture of danger, it was a culture of drug use and substance abuse that was sort of allowed to continue unchecked. And so I think in that environment, not that these crimes were inevitable, but certainly they were the result of kind of a culture of violence. And so that was my question in my review. How does this happen? How does this person get on this path in a way that, you know, they seem to be unable to leave or get off of? And I really don't have the answers because I think you're right. I think this was a person who grew up in an area that, you know, gave certain opportunities. And I think that for whatever reason, it just didn't work out. And things got worse and worse and worse until they sort of reached the ultimate end point that resulted

in so much violence and tragedy. So those are the questions that I really want to ask and what I really think about. But the role that addiction and the role that substance abuse plays in these crimes cannot be understated because it was a huge part of what drew these people together to begin with. And especially with the father and son murder, you know, alcohol was really involved in that in a really troubling way. And so I just, that's really what I take from that, from those crimes and from thinking about these murders is the degree to which addiction and substance abuse and those kind of cultures played a role in, you know, in not inciting this violence, but certainly encouraging it, I guess, is what I want to say.

Interesting. I also felt like Noll's partner, Mary Beth, she must have been in a really horrendous position. What was your impression of Mary Beth? So I don't know anything about her or her life or her current situation, although I definitely wish her all the best now. But I think, again, it's this culture of violence, I think, you know, she ultimately did go to the police, but at great peril. And so that was a very complicated position and a very dangerous one to be in. And of course, she also incurred a certain amount of implication in the crimes. And that's hard to deal with. It's a very, very heavy thing. I can't even imagine it. And in a place that is so small, and then, you know, an environment where everyone knows

everyone else or everyone is connected somehow. And so I think I have a lot of sympathy for the dangerous position that someone like her would have been caught in amongst, you know, a culture of violence and substance abuse that really dominated those periods, it seems. Yeah, absolutely. For one of the, like, more famous Canadian cases, like, everyone keeps talking about this new Brunswick serial killer, Noel Winters. And now I understand he's not a serial killer. But yeah, it's crazy how little information there is about it. Yeah, I couldn't find a lot either. When I was writing my review, I wanted to get a little bit more of a legitimate sense of the crimes. And that's really difficult to do. And

you're right, he was not a serial killer. He was very complicated, I think. But I, like I said, I think that the issues there are tragically very every day, right? The issues of crime and substance abuse and that kind of culture of violence doesn't make for a salacious crime, but it does make for a tragic one. And so I think that's what's happened here. But what's intense and intricate about this case is the stake that a lot of people have in it. There's also a big question around, like, order of events, right? Like, when did Mary Beth go to the police? And when were they really looking to apprehend him? And what did he do then? And when did he do it? It's very, very difficult. And of course, he has his own tragic end that

doesn't answer a lot of those questions. So yeah, it's a very difficult case to kind of think about and talk about, because you really can't, like, throw a rock in St. John without hitting somebody who's got an opinion about this case or has a story to tell about it. And I just feel my own personal anxiety is like, some, some local is going to say to me, no, you got that detail wrong. It actually happened this way. It's so difficult to actually nail down those details because the book that we have is not a good resource. And the archives are so limited and so silent on so many really important aspects of the case. And so that's what makes it so interesting and intense. And that's what I wanted to get across in my discussion of it, because it's a huge part of

my life and it's a huge part of the city for better or for worse. Rachel, what led to you starting True Crime Index, the website where you review true crime books? So True Crime Index is actually a really, really exciting project that I share with my good friend and colleague, Jessica Trainor. So we're both PhD candidates in the English department at Queens, and we both share genuinely a real interest in true crime. I think like anyone who is listening, like yourself, we really enjoy true crime for very specific reasons. And because we're literature scholars, we often try and think critically about why we enjoy it and what specific items or examples of true crime we enjoy more than others. And so one day, Jessica was talking to me and she said,

I really would love to find a website where I could review my favorite true crime books and direct people who are as critically interested or as popularly interested in true crime to the books that are really doing it right. And she said, I can't find that website. And I said, well, why don't we just start one? So True Crime Index came out of that. And basically what we do is we post book reviews of new true crime that's coming out every week. So often our reviews are based on current releases that are coming out that week or the week before, we work with a lot of great publishers who have been really supportive to us in that way. And so we've been able to showcase some really, really excellent books about famous crimes and really obscure crimes. And we run it

together. It's one of our favorite things to do. And yeah, it's spawned a lot of really great opportunities. So I love it. It's one of my favorite parts of my job. Oh, that's amazing. I have to say, like I said before, that this particular review of Bodies in the Backyard was just immaculate. I love your writing. I love the way that you wrote about your childhood. And it was just beautiful. That's why when I read it, I'm like, okay, I have to contact Rachel. Oh my gosh, well, thank you so very much. So with the start of True Crime Index, what we really wanted to do was to each post basically a review of a book that details our hometown murder. And so we wanted people to get to know us as editors and

readers and about what was important to us. And I said, well, this is the perfect story because it's really about a lot more than a book. And so I'm so glad you liked it because I worked really hard on it. And I think it showcases a lot of what is really important to us at True Crime Index. Yeah, I can tell you worked hard on it. It's a beautiful piece of writing. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you so much. Where can people find True Crime Index? So you can find us at truecrimeindex.ca. And you can also find us on Twitter at True Crime Index. And you can email us if you are a publisher that has a book coming out that you'd like us to consider for review. Or if you're an avid True Crime Reader who would like to

write a review for us at truecrimeindex.com. Amazing. Rachel, thank you again so much for joining us. Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for listening and special thanks to Hailey Gray for research. And of course, thanks to Rachel M. Friars for her excellent insights. There's a link in the show notes so you can read her blog post and for the full list of resources and anything else you want to know about the podcast, including how to access ad free episodes, visit canadiantruecrime.ca. I'd also love to hear from anybody in New Brunswick who has a personal story about Noel Winters or knows more information about that book. You can find ways to contact me on the website.

As always, thank you so much for your kind ratings, reviews, messages and support. I really appreciate it. Thanks also to the host of True for voicing the disclaimer and We Talk of Dreams who compose the theme song. I'll be back after the new year with a new Canadian True Crime story. See you then. you