Canadian True Crime - 18 Robert Pickton - Part 4

Starting point is 00:00:00 This podcast may contain coarse language, adult themes and content of a violent and disturbing nature. Listener discretion is advised. This is Christy and welcome to Canadian True Crime, Episode 18, Robert Picton, Part 4, The Conclusion. Please note, in addition to the usual disclaimer, this episode includes details about evidence of animal cruelty. When we last left off, the police had just started to raid the Picton farm and Robert Picton was taken to the station in handcuffs. It was February the 5th, 2002 and he was 52 years old. As police searched through the house, they found the prohibited gun on the shelf above Robert's washing machine.

Starting point is 00:01:04 This discovery was crucial as it justified their search warrant. But it wasn't just a gun, it was wrapped in plastic and there was something odd looking about it. To their horror, the 22 Smith & Wesson revolver had a plastic dildo attached to its barrel. It had five live bullets and one shell casing, meaning one had been fired. Things only took a turn for the worst. In Robert's office, police uncovered a pair of women's running shoes and an orange asthma inhaler. Attached to the inhaler was the prescription label that had a familiar name on it, Serena Abbotsway, one of the missing women who had disappeared just six months beforehand.

Starting point is 00:01:49 She had picked up her inhaler from the pharmacy just weeks before she disappeared. The officers knew what this meant. They were shocked. Police searched Robert's bedroom. In the bottom drawer of his nightstand, they found a flare gun that had been adapted to take 12 gauge shells, as well as handcuffs, large cable ties and two dildos. Next to the nightstand was a box full of knives. On the television stand, they saw ID and a birth certificate belonging to another one of the missing women, Heather Bottomley, who vanished in April of 2001.

Starting point is 00:02:30 She was 25 years old and left behind two children. On the mattress that served as Robert's bed, police discovered a bloodstain. At this point, they knew that Robert was involved in at least two of the disappearances. They had their man. Based on this evidence, they decided not to continue with the weapons search, so they left the items where they were, locked down the farm and sealed it off from the growing numbers of reporters descending on the farm. Robert Picton was charged with an illegal weapons offence, and straight away, police officers began phoning the families of the missing women to let them know they had a suspect in custody. None of the initial search team slept a wink all night.

Starting point is 00:03:17 All they could think about was the logistical nightmare that lay before them. To say the property was a mess would be an understatement. 16 hours after Robert Picton was arrested, he was released on bail, with an order not to go back to the farm until the search was complete. He stayed with his brother David at his house around the corner and worked with David's company doing odd jobs. Police kept a tail on him the whole time he was out on bail, and his conversations were recorded. The next day, a joint task force of almost 130 VPD and RCMP officers sealed off the Picton farm and began a full-scale investigation.

Starting point is 00:04:03 A large trailer was moved onsite to serve as a mobile command centre. Forensic investigators were called in with all the equipment they needed to properly process an enormous crime scene. A photographer came to capture images of what they had to deal with. Software was set up to catalogue everything. Protocols were put in place. Much discussion was had about the scope of the search. Should they just search the buildings on the 14-acre farm or the whole thing? It was decided that all of the property needed to be searched, and they split it into sites that included Robert's trailer, the motorhome, the slaughterhouse, the mechanical shop,

Starting point is 00:04:42 the garage and workshop, the barn and the original Picton farmhouse that the family lived in early on. It all needed to be covered. Wearing Tyvek suits, gloves, masks and booties, the search started with a walk-through of the different areas to assess the scope. There was a lot of women's clothing on the farm, so they gathered it all up and sorted it into piles. The clothes with stains were put in a separate pile. The official search began back in Robert's bedroom in the trailer, where they were able to collect the items they had seen during the raid. Along with Heather Bottomley's ID, they found several documents with her name on it like rental application forms, handwritten notes about pregnancy tests, as well as other documents belonging to Heather,

Starting point is 00:05:30 including government-issued papers and ID cards. Next, they went to collect Serena Abbott's way's orange and halo. They also found a grey ski bag belonging to her and inside were two syringes filled with a blue liquid that looked like antifreeze or window-washing liquid. That really gave credibility to what Scott Chubb had told the police about how Robert asked him to hurt Lynn Ellingson. Also in his bedroom, they found the rest of Robert's collection of sex toys, lots and lots of vibrators and dildos, lubricating gel and furry handcuffs. Later, forensic analysis proved that the stain on one set, with fake leopard skin attached, was blood belonging to missing woman Jacqueline McDonald. Jacqueline was 23 years old and left behind a daughter when she disappeared at the beginning of 1999, just over three years earlier.

Starting point is 00:06:29 Plastic cable ties were also found. Two women's belts were found, as well as a hairbrush and some syringes. Robert's mattress was stained, so those parts were cut and sent for analysis. This blood was later analysed and determined to belong to Heather Bottomley, the owner of the papers and pieces of ID that already found. Robert's bedroom wall had stains on it, so the panel was removed, and in the office, they found a woman's leather jacket with stains on it. In the loft of the farm's mechanical shop, they found several purses, a white purse with lipstick in it, and a black purse with cosmetics, a toothbrush and condoms, one of them used. They also found a woman's watch. There was no indication as to who these items belonged to, and they knew it would be a very long time before they might possibly even find out. All items were to be bagged, sealed and labelled. Each item would be collected by a team member and sent to the mobile lab to be barcoded and examined.

Starting point is 00:07:37 Every time searches went off the site to the trailer, they would need to replace their Tyvek suits, gloves, booties and masks. It was a long drawn out process, but it had to be done. There was no other way. Other searches went to the slaughterhouse, where they discovered the pigs lived in squalor. The scene was horrifying. The poor animals had no food or water. There were sick pigs lying around with various infections. One had rotting hooves. One pig had recently given birth to a litter and was not in great health. Her babies were all deceased. In fact, one bull pig was playing around with the dead body of one of the babies. Searchers also found a sheep's carcass that was decomposing. Two skinned pigs suspended above a table, a bunch of pig carcasses and several drums of animal remains. A pig's head was on a table. It had a hole between its eye that looked like it was from a nail gun. Meantime, members of the missing women's families descended upon the farm, desperate for information. They set up at the gate where they kept vigil and refused to leave.

Starting point is 00:08:53 Gina Houston, Robert Pickton's former best friend, was there too, telling anyone who would listen that it was all Lynn Ellingson's fault. She said that it was just a case of a drug addicted sex worker who had been lying about Robert and that he was actually a really nice caring man. The activity around the farm was big news to the residents of Poco. Two days after the search, they found out that Robert Pickton was now a suspect in the missing women case. They remembered the weird things that had happened there, most notably when Wendy Lynn Eisteder came running out of the farm onto the road, naked and bleeding after her knife attack encounter with Robert. They also remembered that the farm used to be much larger before the pieces of land had been sold off. The surrounding land was now populated with buildings, townhouses, schools and shops. The community wondered if there were bodies buried underneath. While the search was going on, officers back at the RCMP were preparing to question Robert Pickton. This would be an important interview or series of interviews, so the right person had to be chosen. The first person chosen was Staff Sergeant Bill Forty. He was a younger officer that showed a lot of leadership potential, but more importantly, he had a way with people. He knew how to make them feel comfortable.

Starting point is 00:10:21 Bill hadn't been involved with the missing women file so far, so straight away he got to work reviewing it and getting up to speed. Other officers put together information to help repair him, including lists of facts. Bill even went to the farm to take a tour just to get a sense of the size of it and of course the condition it was in. He was shocked. It was decided that two interview teams would be assembled, one to interview Robert Pickton and another for Dinah Taylor. Police suspected that Dinah, another one of Robert Pickton's best friends, may have been a participant in the crimes. She'd been wiretapped and was being watched by undercover operatives. The arrest hadn't happened yet, but it was going to happen. Each team member was carefully chosen for a combination of skill sets, personality and gender. They had some junior members who provided fresh perspectives. They included a police officer who'd been involved in the investigation into the stolen cars found on the farm over 20 years earlier and knew both the farm and the brothers.

Starting point is 00:11:31 The team also invited several experienced profilers, including Roy Hazelwood, one of the creators of Quantico's well-known behavioral science unit. He's also a serial killer expert and a published author. Interesting side note, Roy Hazelwood also worked on the Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamulca case and created controversy due to his conclusion that Carla was a, quote, compliant victim instead of a willing participant. Meantime, other preparations were being made to get an undercover officer to be a cell plant for when Robert Pickton was arrested in relation to the missing women. Remember, he was out on bail at this time after being charged with possession of illegal firearms. This operation involved setting up electronic surveillance equipment in the cell, the interview room, and also in an unmarked police vehicle. A team of officers tried to get more leads. After they established Scott Chubb wasn't involved in any of Robert Pickton's criminal dealings, they questioned him further. He was able to offer up a few names and turned into a great resource of information on both the inner workings of the farm and Robert Pickton himself.

Starting point is 00:12:46 He said, quote, basically he just putters around. If he shows up at a job site, he's always getting in the way. Scott went on to say Robert would come in and always throw a monkey wrench into the situation. When asked about what kind of temperament Robert had, Scott said he was a quiet person, but when he got angry, he would snap and it would end up in violence. He recounted one situation where Robert and his brother David were having a fight, screaming at each other, and then Robert suddenly punched David in the nose. He recommended that they try to speak with Lynn Ellingson again. Maybe she would talk now that the Robert Pickton cat had been let out of the bag, so to speak. The threat to her was now not as great. Scott told them how Robert had offered him a thousand dollars to hurt her, telling him to inject Lynn with windshield fluid or radiator coolant in a syringe. The police also wondered whether Lynn may have been involved in the situation because of the story about what she'd seen in the barn. It was as good a time as any to arrest her and find out what else she knew. Lynn was located, high on drugs, and arrested. Police then questioned her aggressively back at the station, warning her that they would likely charge her with conspiracy to commit murder,

Starting point is 00:14:11 but she wasn't able to tell them anything, and finally the police got so frustrated that they let her go without charging her. They later decided that she wasn't a suspect. Around the same time, the police decided to arrest Dinah Taylor. They hadn't gleaned much of use from her surveillance and despite questioning her aggressively too, she wouldn't buckle, and frustratingly they had to release her without charge. Back on the farm, everyone knew that the search would need to cover not only the buildings, but the farmland. All 14 acres of it. It wasn't just dirt to dig up though. Remember, the farm was a junkyard filled with old machinery, old tools, junk metal pieces of concrete, and general garbage. That would need to be sorted and cleared before any kind of digging operation could begin. Bob Stair, a former RCMP officer and chief coroner for the province, was brought in to manage the search. He'd worked on the International War Crimes Tribunal in The Hague on mass gravesites in former Yugoslavia, so he knew what was involved and how to do it. This was a large-scale operation. It had been declared the largest crime scene in Canadian history. Obviously, the farm was a spectacle and crowds continued to gather at the gate. Every so often, a police representative would come out to offer some news, but obviously at this point, not a lot was known or could be announced publicly. A tent was put up across the road as a sort of safe space for the families to find refuge with victim services workers.

Starting point is 00:15:58 It was soon referred to as the family tent or the healing tent. Before long, it was decorated with pictures of the missing women, notes to them, wreaths of flowers, ribbons, and lit candles. On the morning of February 13th, nine days after the first raid of the Picton Farm, police discovered even more troubling items in the motorhome he'd lived in for a time. Littered on the floor were cigarette butts, a crack pipe, syringes, a woman's black jacket, and handcuffs covered in blood. Police also found a severed hose with a shower head crudely attached and covered in blood. A few more of Serena Abbott's ways and halers were found, intermixed amongst the chaos. Police also found the blood and hair of Diane Rock, the mother of five who went missing in October 2001, just months before Robert was arrested. A separate team of police obtained a search warrant to access the two lockers Robert had rented at a storage company. There, police sorted through clothing and power tools to find a woman's belt and an envelope full of teeth. Back with the profiling and interviewing team, they were still strategising how to best approach the situation with Robert. Chargers hadn't been laid yet for anything other than the firearms possession, so they had to be very careful.

Starting point is 00:17:28 They had to make sure that the team searching the farm had enough evidence to lay charges in the eyes of a judge, and they had to make sure that any time spent with Robert wasn't wasted. Every move they made had to count, because Robert was still out on bail. Eventually, they decided that a woman would be best to speak with him initially. He might open up more to a woman, so they put constable Dana Lilies on the case. Dana had just finished interviewing Linda Wright, Robert's sister, and was the most junior member of the team. In fact, she was the only woman. She had been with the RCMP for nine years and was studying for her profiler qualifications. So, while she was relatively junior, she knew what she was doing and had a reputation for being an excellent interviewer. So, on February 16, 2002, eleven days after the first raid of the Picton Farm, Robert was to be served with the summons to appear in court on the firearms charges. But this was really just an excuse to talk to him.

Starting point is 00:18:36 Dana Lilies was given the job of delivering the summons, and she was to tell Robert that they'd found a ventilator and a red car on the property, as well as a woman's fingertip. The statement about the fingertip wasn't true, but it was legal to make a false statement like this with the goal of getting information. Wearing regular clothes, Dana walked up to Robert and told him that she had some paperwork for him. He accompanied her back to her car, where she told him she was a police officer, and that nothing he said today could be used against him. They started chatting, and it wasn't too long before Dana's friendly conversation style motivated him to launch into his poor farm boy Willie Sob's story. He said he felt like Princess Diana, because he'd been hounded by the media. Dana said at some points he broke down in tears, sobbing while his chin trembled, as he recalled the negative press he'd received. Refusing to make eye contact with Dana, he spoke about his life, and then the same old stories he'd been telling people for years.

Starting point is 00:19:42 About his childhood, his trip to the States, his pen pals, his engagement that ended because he had to return to the farm. His pet calf that was slaughtered, how his parents died, he also spoke about his brother David calling him a greedy asshole. Conversation finally turned to the missing women. Robert reeled out his list of all the supposedly good things he'd done for various women, and said if he was a killer, then why didn't he kill Gina Houston? Dana had enough of the sob stories, so moved to the reason why they were there. She asked him about the inhaler in his car. He said it must have been a car he bought from a police auction, and he had no idea what was in it. When she brought up the woman's fingertip, he asked where it was found.

Starting point is 00:20:31 She said she didn't know, and asked if there'd been any industrial accidents on the farm. He said yes, but not with any women. She then served him the summons. In the four days following, Dana had two more chats with Robert Picton. She went through pictures of the missing women, and he made comments about their appearance in the pictures, but ultimately said he didn't recognize any of them. For the final visit, Dana told him that DNA testing proved that the fingertip belonged to a man not a woman. But he then counted with his own bizarre and unrelated story, telling her that he had a pile of bones from two-legged animals, each bone three feet long, saying that if they were found to be human, that he would be, quote, nailed to the cross. But added that if they weren't human, then that would mean he was innocent.

Starting point is 00:21:27 Later on, the police found the bones and discovered they were from an ostrich. Towards the end of Dana's chats, forensics came in with results from the blood found in the trailer on the handcuffs and the showerhead. It belonged to missing woman Mona Wilson. Mona was 26 years old and had a son, and she was last seen in November 2001, just a few months beforehand. As soon as this confirmation came in, RCMP went to the court in New Westminster to get approval on the charges. It was granted. They finally had the go-ahead to arrest Robert Picton and charge him with the first-degree murders of Serena Abbotsway and Mona Wilson. The team of RCMP officers and profilers were told that go-time was fast approaching, but they had to be careful about how the arrest went, so they quickly handwrote a script to follow when making the arrest, so both the event and their communication to Robert went exactly as they wanted. All in plain clothes and in an unmarked police car, they drove to David Picton's current demolition work site, where Robert had been working while out on bail.

Starting point is 00:22:45 They saw Robert slouched in the driver's seat of a flatbed truck. You're under arrest. Robert didn't say anything. They padded him down for knives and guns and put him in the rear seat of the police van, but didn't handcuff him. When they got in the van, they told him he was being charged for two counts of first-degree murder and under the investigation for the murder of another 48 women. Robert's reaction was one of shock. He said he couldn't believe it and claimed what they were saying wasn't true. For the entire drive to the Surrey Municipal Centre, Robert didn't say much more. When they got there, he was booked in and charged. At the time of his final arrest, he was 52 years old. While the RCMP team prepared to question Robert, he had his filthy clothes taken away and was asked to take a shower, which, of course, he refused. He was dressed in jail-issue clothes, but he was still filthy. His hands and nails were so dirty they were almost completely black and his breath was said to be foul.

Starting point is 00:23:55 An undercover RCMP officer had by now arranged to be a cell plant that's a cop posing as another prisoner who talks to the prisoner and the hope he will admit to the crime. The thing they aren't allowed to do is try to interview the prisoner. They're only allowed to have a natural conversation. Also part of this ruse is another police officer waiting out of sight down the hall. This person would call the undercover agent out periodically to update him with new information and offer suggestions of where else the conversation could go. Each time the undercover officer needed a break, the police would tell him his lawyer was there to see him, so he would make an excuse to Robert and leave for a bit. As Robert walked into his cell, his undercover cellmate was already there, angrily asking where his lawyer was and protesting that he didn't want to share a cell with anyone. Robert urinated first, didn't wash his hands and then lay on his bench. He started off the conversation by asking what the other guy was there for and what his charges were, off to a good start. Robert Picton and the undercover cop had the kind of introductory conversation you'd expect. They talked about the situation with their lawyers and how long they've been in the cell for.

Starting point is 00:25:14 Robert called himself a plain old pig farmer who was being charged for 50 murders. The undercover cop said he didn't believe it and said he thought that Robert was bullshitting him. They established that Robert is the guy the undercover cop has seen on TV. Robert sarcastically called himself a legend. They then went on to have a benign conversation where Robert told him the usual list of stories from his childhood. He reiterated many times that he's just a farm guy. They discussed his dislike of showers and the fact that he'll only take baths. He also announced that he doesn't drink coffee. Robert then met with his lawyer, took a phone call, then left for police questioning. Staff Sergeant Bill 40 and the team were ready to go. Bill was in the room by himself and outside in a conference room were all the Task Force members, along with psychologists, profilers, as well as other officers involved in the case so far. They were all ready to watch the interview.

Starting point is 00:26:21 Bill started off by trying to establish a rapport with Robert, but it didn't go well. Robert seemed to know what he was doing. Bill brought up many topics of conversation, his mother knowing what it was like to fail, his childhood, but he didn't make a connection with any of those topics. He then asked Robert what was the best thing that had ever happened to him. Robert replied that it was his short-lived engagement to Connie, and the worst thing? When he was charged with attempted murder of Wendy Lynn Eistetter in the stabbing attack, they talked about butchering animals. Robert yawned a lot. Bill then showed Robert a poster that had the headshots of 48 of the missing women, asking if he knew any of them. Robert wouldn't budge. Again, he commented on some of their looks, and did say that some of them may have been at his place to party, but said he hadn't known any of them well and certainly hadn't had sex.

Starting point is 00:27:22 They talked about the media, and Robert seemed shocked yet almost delighted that he was in the paper, and his picture was on the front page. They spoke about how Scott Chubb said he'd seen Robert in the car with Georgina Papin, and how Robert had told him how easy it was to kill a junkie with a syringe of window washer. Robert looked a little rattled at the mention of Scott Chubb. Andy Bellwood was mentioned, specifically in relation to how Robert had showed the man how he would kill a sex worker. Robert was angry at this mention. They spoke of the DNA evidence so far. To all of these points, Robert would be angry and incredulous, often exclaiming phrases like, out to lunch, or crock of shit. Then, he seemed to resign himself to the fact that it didn't look good, and announce he had no idea how he got set up like this. Bill 40 had been questioning him for over five hours with no results.

Starting point is 00:28:23 While he took a break, Dana Lilies went in. She was the cop who talked with Robert in the car. To everything, he just said he didn't know what happened, how DNA got there, and proclaimed his innocence. Don Adam, a more senior officer with the RCMP, tried next. He pulled in every trick in the book, including bringing up the involvement of Dinah Taylor, Lisa Yelds, and Lynn Ellison, asking Robert if perhaps he was like Paul Bernardo and had female assistants. He mentioned all the DNA evidence again, but Robert wouldn't budge. He was relaxed, almost bored. Don brought up his difficult childhood on the farm, trying to appeal to him from a softer angle.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Could this be responsible for what happened? Again, nothing. At one point, Robert tried to ask for a deal, saying if he admitted to everything, what could they do for him? Don said they weren't prepared to negotiate as they had enough evidence on him. Robert replied that he was obviously going to take the fall for everyone, adding he could bring more people down with him. He asked to speak to Dinah Taylor and said that his brother David wasn't involved with any of it. By this time, Robert had been in the interview room for 11 hours and wasn't phased. He was relaxed, he hadn't eaten anything and hadn't even left to use the washroom yet. Don tried one last time to get that confession.

Starting point is 00:29:56 He continued to ask him about the number of victims and the assistants he might have had. Robert implicated Scott Chubb as his male assistant. Don said that Robert didn't do a good job of cleaning up the girl's blood. Robert agreed, saying he was sloppy and it was because of his own carelessness that he was here now. Then, Don asked him how many women there were. Robert said two or three, then immediately clammed up, saying he wouldn't make any comments without his lawyer and that he needed to talk to Dinah Taylor. Don asked him again to tell him for the sake of the families of the missing women. Robert didn't bat an eyelid, he said that wasn't his problem, shit happens.

Starting point is 00:30:40 After 12 hours, the interview was over for the day, it was now 10pm. Robert went back to his cell in a very bad mood. The undercover cop playing his cellmate was waiting for him. There is a bit of video evidence of this conversation on YouTube, but the audio is not good quality. In fact, there are subtitles on the video because it's pretty hard to understand. Here's a recreation of some of the conversation they had. Please note I have edited it to cut out excessively gratuitous swearing. I fucking buried myself now.

Starting point is 00:31:18 I buried myself. How? Got me. They got me on this one. No, no shit. What have they got? Fuck all their old carcasses. What have you got? You know what I'm saying? DNA. Fuck.

Starting point is 00:31:29 Yeah. Come on buddy, fuck that's nothing. They can't finalize that. If you've got a fucking missing person, it's hard to collect DNA. They've got DNA. Guy does it right. I find the best way to fucking dispose of something is to take it to the ocean. Oh really? Do you know what the ocean does to things? There ain't much left. I did better than that.

Starting point is 00:31:48 Who? Me. No. A rendering plant. No shit. That's gotta be pretty good, eh? Mm-hmm. Can't be much left. Oh, no only I was kind of sloppy at the end too. Getting too sloppy.

Starting point is 00:32:02 Really? They got me. Oh fuck getting too sloppy. Next, Robert discusses his other concerns. He's worried that he hasn't been fingerprinted yet and he says he's been told by the cops that they're not letting him go, even for bail. Next, the two compare rap sheets and body counts, starting with Robert asking the question. So what have you got? Huh?

Starting point is 00:32:26 They got any idea or what, two or three more? They know of two plus the attempt. Between me and you, I'm fine with that, you know? I got uh, I got attempted on mine. The attempt he's referring to is of course the knife attack with Wendy Lynn Eisteder. You've beaten that though. I beat that, yeah. Right on, but on something like this, it's fucking worth it. You know, I can make things disappear. I was gonna do one more. Make it an even 50. Make the big 5-0.

Starting point is 00:32:56 Make the big 5-0? Fuck, that's fucked. 5-0, half a hundred. Mm-hmm. Everybody says how many of those? Wouldn't tell them. Talk about half, about one quarter, talking about all of them? I says no. You know they got 48 on the list? Yeah. You know the list has only got like only half the people in there, the other half might, but I think most of them, based on that fucking evidence, I think I'm nailed to the cross. Robert then went on to say that if that happens, there'll be about 15 other people going down,

Starting point is 00:33:28 saying he told the police they were his friends. He then expressed regret that he was sloppy, saying that's how he made his own grave. Then he said that if he wasn't caught, he could have done more, and his count could have been more than, quote, the ones in the States, meaning Gary Ridgway, the Green River killer in Seattle. He said Ridgway's record was about 42 victims, to which the undercover cop said it looks like he got the record. Robert said his number is still growing, and tells the undercover cop what he believes the police are going to do next. They want to dig, they are. They're going to dig for a year. That's unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:34:07 Let them dig. That's right. I told them already, dig. Fucking have it, have fun. No shit, have fun, play in the dirt. Pretty little box, sand box. Teeth, we're going to find fingernails, bones, yes, so yes it is. You said fucking good luck.

Starting point is 00:34:21 I don't believe this, I'm so fucking stupid. Yeah, you gotta be, I'm thinking like sloppy, oh fuck. Mr. Sloppy, sloppy at the end. Fuck, they're going to burn your ass. Just near the end, just sloppy. Next, you can see how Robert was in control of the slow, clueless pig farmer act that he'd managed to fool so many people with. So I'll see what's going to happen tomorrow. Tomorrow's going to be very interesting.

Starting point is 00:34:46 My lawyer says don't say nothing. Perfect. They're going to say, you know, you don't understand that? You're not saying what you said yesterday. That's right. They're going to come back to me and I'm going to say, I don't know, I can't remember. Yeah, you're going to really fuck them up tomorrow, you're going to have some fun. I'm really turning the minds around today, I really had them fucking going today.

Starting point is 00:35:06 The conversation then turned again to Robert being worried about his sloppiness and worried the cops are going to be digging very deep on his farm. He held up four fingers. Yeah, four? Four I was sloppy with, I just couldn't finish it off so I cleaned it up and that's it. So I let everything die for a while. Yeah. And then do another 25 new ones. Robert and the undercover officer laughed together.

Starting point is 00:35:33 At around midnight, the undercover cop said he needed to talk to his lawyer and left the cell. Straight away, Robert started masturbating on his bunk. The next day, his cellmate was gone. The operation was over. And while he waited in his cell, the police were now talking to Lynn Ellingson, who had now been signed up as a witness. Although she agreed, she was high when she first came in and still terrified that Robert would get bail and go after her. She clammed up at first, but the police believed that once the drugs were out of her system and she was thinking clearly, she would tell them what she knew. The morning after that, in February 2002, Robert made his first court appearance amidst high security.

Starting point is 00:36:20 The crowds had turned out to catch a glimpse of this man who had made worldwide headlines. His charges were read and he was quickly remanded into custody at the North Fraser Pretrial Centre in Poco until his next court appearance. Back on the farm, the search and preparations continued, dividing into two tasks, the digging and shifting of soil and the forensic collection. Every stain was swabbed for DNA and sent for testing. Due to it being a pig farm, there were a lot of stains, but they all needed to be tested to see if they were human or animal. Entire walls were ripped out of the farm structures and sent for testing. It was a long, arduous process. But seven weeks after Robert's initial arrest, the results of DNA testing allowed police to add several more names to the total women suspected of being murdered at the farm. Several new first degree murder charges. Joining Serena Abbotsway and Mona Wilson was Jacqueline McDonnell, Heather Bottomley and Diane Rock.

Starting point is 00:37:39 Do you have a passion project that you're ready to take to the next level? Squarespace makes it easy for anyone to create an engaging web presence, grow a brand and sell anything from your products to the content you create and even your time. When I launched this passion project six years ago, I needed some kind of online hub to manage all the non-podcasting tasks that come with podcasting. I chose Squarespace because it's an all-in-one platform that seamlessly helps me achieve multiple goals. It's important to have a website that looks good and I was inspired by Squarespace's wide selection of clean and modern templates. They can be easily customized with pre-built layouts and flexible design tools to fit your needs. And you can even browse the category of your business to see examples of what others have done. I used the built-in blogging tools to create a new page for each episode and there are so many intuitive options from embedding an audio player so listeners can stream episodes to scheduling posts to be published on a certain date

Starting point is 00:38:44 and easily moderated comments section and automatically displaying recent episodes on the homepage. Every Squarespace website and online store includes SEO tools to help you maximize your visibility in search engines. I love the powerful insights I can get from the analytics tools, helping me better understand who's visiting the site, where they came from and how they're interacting with it. Do you have a passion project or business idea or something to sell? Go to squarespace.com.ctc for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use offer code CTC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com.ctc with offer code CTC and get your passion project off the ground today. On April 2, 2002, Robert appeared in court via video link from jail to hear the new first-degree murder charges. He showed no emotion as the charges were read. And while the digging and DNA collection was going on at the farm, a third team off-site were tasked with following up tips in interviewing people close to the Pictons.

Starting point is 00:40:08 Scott Chubb was interviewed again, with the police going over his information and establishing for certain that he wasn't involved. They were satisfied. Then they spoke to Lynn Ellingson, who was by now sober, and finally told them everything about the night she caught Robert in the barn with the body of a woman hanging on a hook. They took her to the locations on the farm she described, and she was able to remember even more details. She was highly believable and the police marked her down as a potential star witness. She was assigned a person to stay with her to help keep her clean and sober. They didn't want anything stuffing up their chances of her being an effective witness. Meanwhile, the families of the missing women were receiving a lot of attention, which was quite the change from being cruelly dismissed for so many years. The media grasped at any chance to speak with them. In particular, Marnie Frey's parents, Rick and Lynn, as well as Dawn Cray's brother, Ernie, spoke to the media many times about their loved ones. The search on the farm continued. Two days after Robert's latest court hearing, two officers were going past the workshop on the farm when they smelt something a bit off.

Starting point is 00:41:29 They went in and found it was coming from one of the freezers. They knew there were at least nine on the farm, and they hadn't been searched yet. One of the men went over and peered inside. He saw two white plastic buckets inside each other, lying on their sides. Picking it up and looking inside the inner bucket, he was horrified at what he thought he saw. He called the other officer over to verify. It was half of a human head. It had been cut vertically down the middle with a saw. Just a few days later, forensics determined it was the remains of Andrea Josbury, who was just 23 years old when she vanished off the streets about ten months beforehand. She left behind a daughter. The cause of her death was determined to be a gunshot wound to the head. The other search team stopped what they were doing and the freezers were designated the next priority. They found another half a head and tucked away in the cradle cavity of the skull were two hands and two feet. The head and one each of the hands and feet were determined to belong to Serena Abbotsway, who had also died from a gunshot wound to the head. And the other foot and hand were more of the remains of Andrea Josbury.

Starting point is 00:42:50 Next, the search team were rummaging around in an old collapsed building that used to be the Piggory that housed the pigs. Sitting at the end of the ruins was an old cistern. A foul odour came from the contents of it, suggesting it hadn't been cleaned in quite some time. It was pumped and the mucky contents put aside for sorting. As one of the search team was going through it, he realised he'd found something solid. It was a human jawbone with some teeth attached. One of the teeth had a filling in it and from this they were able to identify it as belonging to 31 year old Brenda Wolfe, who had disappeared three years beforehand, leaving behind a son and a daughter. Her DNA was also found on a number of other items in Robert's trailer. Also in the cistern was a tiny human bone that was determined to belong to 43 year old Wendy Crawford, who disappeared two and a half years beforehand and also left behind a son and a daughter. After these discoveries, the police charged Robert Picton with more first degree murders. The count was now up to seven and growing.

Starting point is 00:44:04 These new discoveries and a completely different building to the discovery of the other remains really drove home the need to search every square inch of the farm. They weren't just finding those who had recently disappeared anymore. This had been going on for years. What other secrets did the farm have to tell? As per the plan, all 14 acres of the farm was turned into a grid of squares, each 20 metres by 20 metres and each one numbered. There were 216 squares with stakes marking each corner. Each square would be tackled one by one. The soil would need to be dug into until undisturbed soil was reached. The team was told how to tell if soil had been undisturbed. A backhoe would then chew and scrape up the gravel and topsoil as well as dirt and rocks. The dirt would be put into a truck that went into a screening area and put into a machine called a grizzly that vibrates a mesh screen, shaking off loose dirt and uncovering any solid objects buried in it with the help of conveyor belts.

Starting point is 00:45:15 This would need to be done for every square foot of farmland on the 14 acre farm. Millions of dollars worth of equipment was ordered onto the site. It was needed to process the sheer size and amount of work to be done. There were normal trucks, refrigerator trucks, tents, grizzlies, screeners, backhoes, conveyor belts and front-end loaders. Also, what they called the ATCO Village was moved in, a series of specialized trailers that would be positioned around the farm to provide the workers with staff areas equipped with microwaves, fridges, toilets and showers. After the discovery of the bones, it was determined that a forensic anthropologist was needed on site and Dr. Tracy Rogers was soon put on the task. Tracy was a specialist in both human bones and crime scene analysis. If longtime listeners of this podcast recognize her name, it's because she was the person who would go on to retrieve the remains of Tim Bosmer from the purpose-built incinerator commissioned by Dylan Millard.

Starting point is 00:46:24 Tracy had been following the case on the news and knew of the sheer enormity of the search, so made it a priority to get a team together of people who would work on the conveyor belts, sorting through the debris uncovered by the search. A team was hired consisting of university anthropology and archaeology departments that had a background in forensic work. They were told the shift would be from 8am to 8pm, five days a week. It would be a rough job, but students knew what an opportunity it was and all wanted to be there for it. In fact, they had a waiting list of more students who wanted to be involved. Alongside the students, Tracy also brought in a few other experienced forensic anthropologists to work the site part-time, including a medical doctor who specialized in skeletal biology at the University of Northern British Columbia and the head of the Department of Anthropology and Archaeology at the University of Saskatchewan.

Starting point is 00:47:28 The digging operation uncovered between 30 and 40 bone pits. That's a pit that's usually dug on a farm to dispose of the carcasses and bones of slaughtered animals. These pits were biohazards, with risks including salmonella, bacterial infections and animal-borne diseases that a human could catch like bovine tuberculosis. Anyone involved had to wear Tyvek suits, two pairs of gloves and respirators. Most of the bones turned out to be animal bones, but several pits contained both animal and human bones, and one of the pits contained only human bones. Four months after the search began, the police had uncovered thousands of items they believed were belongings of the missing women of the downtown Eastside. But only their families could identify them, so it was time to meet the families and give them an update. The most pressing question coming from the families was, will we get a body back?

Starting point is 00:48:32 They were told that no, there were no complete bodies, but they were finding remains. The police wouldn't say much more than that, but started to lay out pictures of all the objects they'd recovered and asked the families to look through and see if they recognized anything belonging to their missing loved one. Eight days later, on June 3, 2002, a police source leaked information about the search to the press, and it was reported globally that there were body parts of missing women in the freezers of Robert Picton, specifically referring to the hands, feet and partial heads. The press spoke with Robert's brother David, who insisted Robert didn't do it and that it was a former Picton employee who was trying to frame Robert, but when pressed about who that might be, David backed down from the accusation. By now, the story had become a global sensation. Camera crews were sent from all over the world to see the search site for themselves and dig around the downtown Eastside, shocked at what they found there. They spoke to the families of the victims and the police. Kim Rosmo gave honest interviews about his experience. Vancouver was getting a terrible international reputation, and the locals were not pleased. Back at the farm, the search of the buildings continued. They found hand bones belonging to 37-year-old Georgina Papin, who left behind seven children when she disappeared more than a year beforehand. Searches in the slaughterhouse were appalled by a smell coming from two plastic garbage pails. One of them contained animal awful, and the other contained human remains. There was another human head that had been sawn in half vertically, just like the others had found, and it was accompanied by two feet and two hands.

Starting point is 00:50:30 DNA tests proved that these were the remains of Mona Wilson, who had also died from a gunshot to the head. Experts compared the saw cuts to all of the heads that had been found so far, and found they came from the same reciprocating saw. And that saw had also been used to cut the skull of a Jane Doe that had been found in Mission Slough in 1995. They still couldn't identify who it was, but at least they knew what and likely who was responsible. But one of the most shocking and horrifying moments was yet to come. In June of 2002, still digging around in one of the freezers, searches found plastic bags filled with ground meat. Four months later, it was determined that the contents of the meat included ground human tissue. DNA testing concluded that it matched two women, 43-year-old Cindy Felix, who left behind a daughter, and 47-year-old Inga Hall, who left behind two daughters when she disappeared. Both women had disappeared more than four years beforehand. Police realized that what they had on their hands was a massive public health risk. They knew that Robert had been working with Lisa Yelts's ex-husband to grind, package, and sell hundreds of pounds of ground meat every month to small butcher shops nearby. The chances were high that the ground-up human meat had made it to the local food supply chain. It was July 2002 when this meat was discovered, but the health warning wasn't issued until March 2004, over 18 months later. Fast forward to March 2004 for a minute, and Dr. Perry Kendall, British Columbia's senior health officer, announced to the public that, quote, As a result of information we receive from the RCMP, we have reason to believe there's a strong possibility that some of the product from the Picton farm may still be sitting in some people's freezers in the lower mainland.

Starting point is 00:52:44 Although he didn't specify exactly what that was, everyone knew. It was yet another real-life horror to add to this story. But the police stated that no commercial meat processes were involved, and it wasn't sold in retail stores just distributed to Robert's friends, relatives, and associates. Lisa Yelts and her husband came out publicly to say that the police had played that aspect down, that the distribution of the Picton pork was much more widespread than that. Luckily, there seemed to be no known repercussions like food poisoning that originated from the farm, and in fact the risks were very low, especially if the meat wasn't consumed raw. But for many people, just having this new knowledge and wondering if they'd eaten the meat was horrifying enough. Back to the farm search, as the digging operation continued, more missing women continued to be reported. Now the count was 54. The importance of a thorough search of the farm was never more clear. While the search continued, DNA samples were collected from everyone, including everyone working on the farm, all visitors, and all family members.

Starting point is 00:54:01 Even Robert Picton's former best friend, Lisa Yelts, gave DNA, even though she otherwise refused to cooperate with police. DNA was quickly matched to two women. The first was 32-year-old Helen Hallmark, who disappeared almost five years beforehand and left behind a daughter. DNA tests proved blood spatter on a wall in Robert's bedroom were hers. And the second was 27-year-old Patricia Johnson, who disappeared a year prior. Patty was featured in the iconic photo of the downtown Eastside women by photographer Lincoln Clarks. Her blood was found on a sheet of wood in the slaughterhouse. She left behind two children. The police continued to find evidence. They found DNA on two lipsticks in a makeup bag belonging to Sarah DeVries, and close by was a used condom that had Robert's DNA on it. Sarah was 28 when she disappeared and left behind two children.

Starting point is 00:55:06 And next, a graduate on the conveyor belt was looking over items that came from one of the many bone pits. She eyed a partial human jaw with three teeth. DNA tests proved that they belonged to 25-year-old Marnie Frey, who left behind a daughter. More bones were found that belonged to Georgina Pappin, and additional bones that belonged to the unidentified Jane Doe. Blood was found on the watch of 20-year-old Jennifer Firminger, who had gone missing almost three years prior. Her son was left without a mother. And it continued. DNA was found from Heather Chinock, Tanya Hollick, and Sherry Irving. The police then added more of these names to the official list of missing women Robert Picton was responsible for, bringing the list to 15 charges of first-degree murder. The respective legal teams were gearing up, preparing their files for the eventual court date of what was likely to be a mammoth trial.

Starting point is 00:56:09 The lead on Robert Picton's defense was Peter Ritchie and Marilyn Sandford. Peter Ritchie was described as one of British Columbia's top lawyers, and had also defended Robert after his attack on Wendy Lynn Eisteder. Remember, largely due to her state of mind and lack of additional evidence, the charges were dropped. Despite having a lien on the Picton Farm property for $375,000 to go towards legal fees, Peter Ritchie's legal team soon realized that with more than 200,000 DNA samples to sort through, they had to waive the white flag early on and say that they wouldn't be able to afford to be Robert's lawyers. But after some negotiating, they were able to come to a deal with the court that meant they could continue to work the case. This deal angered the family members as it seemed unfair that Robert Picton still got to retain an expensive, high-powered defense lawyer that he couldn't personally afford to pay for,

Starting point is 00:57:11 and the court, and therefore the taxpayer, was wearing the costs. The defense's legal team grew the team to include Adrian Brooks, who defended Kelly Ellard, the teenager convicted of the murder of Rene Verk, which you would have remembered from episode 6 of this podcast. The crown was led by prosecutor Mike Petrie, and included Daryl Prevot, who was the prosecutor in the Kelly Ellard trial. There would be a little bit of deja vu in this trial. Back with the Picton family, David Picton continued to proclaim Robert's innocence. But Linda Wright, their sister, told a different story. She said neither her nor David visited Robert in prison. Linda said, quote, it's ridiculous to say he's not guilty. The body parts alone that were found in his freezers would convict him.

Starting point is 00:58:07 She also said Robert was lazy and never worked a day in his life. The preliminary hearing took place six months after Robert's arrest at the courthouse at Port Coquitlam. Its purpose was to determine whether the evidence gathered by police was sufficient to warrant a trial. This preliminary hearing was a big deal, and the court heard testimony from Wendy Lynn Eisteder, who spoke about the knife attack. Also from Lynn Ellingson, who spoke of seeing Robert with a woman hung from a hook in the barn. Andy Bellwood spoke of his experience when Robert Picton described how he killed a sex worker, and Scott Chubb spoke about Robert asking to pay him $1,000 to hurt Lynn Ellingson. The court also heard from Gina Houston, as well as Robert's partner in butchering pigs, Pat Casanova.

Starting point is 00:59:02 All of the testimony was covered by a publication ban to ensure a fair trial. This preliminary hearing was supposed to take two to three months, but due to the sheer scope of evidence and testimony, it lasted for seven months. And new evidence continued to flow in while the trial was taking place, as the search of the farm continued. The judge ruled that there was enough evidence to send Robert Picton to trial for the first-degree murders of a minimum of 15 women. By now, the Robert Picton case was declared the biggest in Canadian history. In January of 2003, Robert's butchering partner and business associate Pat Casanova was put under surveillance, with wiretap and a police undercover operation. The police were suspicious that he may have been an accomplice to Robert Picton's crimes. He was arrested in relation to the purchase of his bandsaw, meetings on the Albion Ferry, and driving rental vehicles and women to hotels.

Starting point is 01:00:09 But the police weren't able to find sufficient evidence for a charge, so they released him. And as forensics discovered more evidence on the farm, the charges to Robert Picton's name grew. By May 2005, he was charged with the first-degree murder of 27 women. The new victims included Cara Alice, Andrea Bohaven, Keri Koski, Deborah Jones, Tiffany Drew, Angela Jardine, Diana Melnick, Heather Chinook, Tanya Hollick, and Sherry Irving. Many of them left behind young children. The last murder charge involved the Jane Doe whose remains have never been identified. The DNA of six other missing women were also found on the farm, but at the time, police didn't find enough evidence to charge Robert with their murders. The search of the Picton farm officially ended in November 2003, more than 18 months after it first started.

Starting point is 01:01:14 As the last bone pit was being filled in, the students working on the farm decided to hold a memorial ceremony there. They were gutted, both physically and emotionally. Tears streaming down their faces, they arranged a white rose and name card for each of the now 61 women on the missing list. As a bagpiper played, they dropped the roses into the empty pit one by one, saying the name of each woman as they did. This ceremony was videotaped and shown to the families at a police meeting. A small but extremely meaningful gesture of respect while ending a horrific search for the truth. It was the largest crime scene investigation in Canadian history, with more than 150 investigators and students sifting through every piece of soil. It was also the most expensive in history, with the province having spent between 40 and 50 million dollars and the continuing investigation another 26 million dollars.

Starting point is 01:02:20 And names continued to be added to the list of missing women. By October the 6th 2004, the count was now 69. The trial was supposed to start around the same time in the later part of 2004, but the DNA evidence was taking so long to process and sort out that a lengthy delay was inevitable. As they waited through delay after delay, the community talked. They wondered about David Picton, surely he was involved. From what they'd heard, Robert wasn't smart enough for this, he must have been the guy who disposed of the bodies. He can't have been the instigator or the mastermind, it must have been the brother. After all, David had the association with the Hell's Angels and he didn't exactly have a clean criminal record.

Starting point is 01:03:13 But despite a thorough investigation of the man, including phone tapping and surveillance operations, no evidence was discovered that connected him to any of the murders. There was also public speculation about other possible helpers, especially among the community of sex workers and related stakeholders in the downtown east side. David Houston and Dinah Taylor in particular were known for helping Robert to lure a woman back to his farm. Was that where their involvement ended or was there more to the story? Again, the police dismissed this citing lack of evidence, but this didn't quell the public discussion. In March 2006, the various pre-trial hearings were underway and there would be some blows to the prosecution and to the families. Judge James Williams quashed the murder charge of the Jane Doe whose remains were identified on the farm. And in August, the judge decided that the 26 remaining counts were too much of a burden for the jury to hear and consider evidence for.

Starting point is 01:04:21 It was way too much to ask of them. So, quote, in the interests of justice, the number of counts were reduced to just six. Serena Abbotsway, Mona Wilson, Andrea Josbury, Brenda Wolfe, Georgina Papin and Marnie Frey. The judge added that Robert Picton could be tried later for the remaining 20 charges. The trial finally started in January 2007. The prosecution's case went as expected, starting off with an outline of graphic details of the case. They made the case that Robert Picton, now 57 years old, had worked alone. The jury saw a lot of video evidence, including the RCMP interviews with Robert after his arrest.

Starting point is 01:05:12 He also saw the secretly filmed conversation between Robert and the undercover cop in his cell, where he said he'd killed 49 women, but got too sloppy before he made it to his goal of an even 50. Testimony was given about the discovery of the many human remains found on the farm. The jury heard an audio tape of Robert recording a diary of sorts to one of his pen pals named Victoria, where again he tells his often repeated childhood stories. The jury heard from pathologists and saw graphic autopsy photos. They heard from Lynn Ellingson, Scott Chubb, Andrew Bellwood and Gina Houston, who by this time was being ravaged by breast cancer.

Starting point is 01:05:56 At 39, Gina looked 20 years older than what she was. She sat in a wheelchair as she testified and couldn't master the strength to even hold up a photo album. Gina said that Robert told her that Mona Wilson was buried on the farm, along with at least six other bodies. She then testified that he told her the only way out for them both was suicide. Absent from the witness list was Dinah Taylor and David Peckden. Reporters speculated that the reason they weren't called was that the Crown's case was that Robert acted on his own. These two were suspicious. Also, David publicly protested his brother's innocence and Dinah was always known to be hostile and difficult.

Starting point is 01:06:45 She may not have been a witness, but she was seen at the trial. One day she spent in the area outside the main courtroom and another time she was spotted asleep across some chairs. Also absent was Wendy Lynn Eisteder, although this wasn't for lack of trying. Judge James Williams ruled that she wouldn't be able to testify at the trial as she wasn't closely tied to the 26 women who Robert Peckden had been charged for. The jury never heard anything about the stabbing attack, her running down the road bleeding, and the police finding the keys to the handcuff she was wearing on Robert Peckden. After seven months of testimony, the Crown wrapped up its case and it was now time for the defense. They began by attacking the credibility of the Crown's key witness, Lynn Ellingson,

Starting point is 01:07:38 particularly because she admitted she was high on crack cocaine at the time she saw Robert in the barn. Lynn got quite upset during parts of the tough cross-examination, but she never wavered on what she saw. After that, the majority of the defense's case rested on the suspicious behavior of Robert Peckden's friends. Since he never kept track of who entered or who left his property, the defense suggested that gang members, Hell's Angels, or even David Peckden could not have played a role in the murders of the missing women. They said that it was not fair or reasonable to blame all the deaths on Robert Peckden. They suggested Dinah Taylor as an alternate suspect, particularly in the murder of Andrea Joesbury. Dinah was known to have admitted to bringing Andrea back to the farm,

Starting point is 01:08:28 and Dinah's DNA was also found to be on or near items linked to several of the murder victims. The defense also attacked the credibility of many other Crown witnesses during cross-examinations by questioning the effect that drugs and sex work had had on their judgment. Several blood experts testified to raise doubts against all the blood evidence. The defense also tried to show the jury that Robert was slow. An expert witness said his IQ test was below average, but his reasoning was actually above average. As for Robert Peckden's confession, the defense suggested he was a man of, quote, limited intelligence who wouldn't have understood the questions the police asked.

Starting point is 01:09:14 His confession was basically him repeating what the police had suggested to him. He didn't know what he was saying, they said. The defense wrapped up its case in seven weeks. Both sides had collectively presented 129 witnesses, 98 for the prosecution, and 31 for the defense, and over 1.3 million pages of documents. The trial itself had lasted for almost a year. Many of the families of the women came out for the closing arguments. Victim services had secured most of the hotel rooms close by and given them meal vouchers.

Starting point is 01:09:57 The families were happy, but found soulless in each other celebrating the lives of their loved ones. Marnie Frey's parents Rick and Lynn had brought their granddaughter Brittany, Marnie's daughter. She struck up a friendship with Sarah DeVries' daughter, Jeannie, who also came with her parents. The two teenagers giggled together and cried together. No doubt relieved to have found a peer who knew exactly what the other was feeling. The jury deliberated for nine days, and on December 9, 2007, they announced they'd found Robert not guilty of first-degree murder, but guilty of second-degree murder, and the deaths of Serena Abbotsway, Mona Wilson, Andrea Josbury, Brenda Ann Wolfe, Georgina Faith Papin, and Marnie Frey.

Starting point is 01:10:48 Many members of their families in the courtroom proclaimed loudly and broke down in tears, feeling like they'd been robbed of justice. The judge had to caution them to be quiet. Robert Picton showed no emotion. Why was it only second-degree murder instead of the first-degree murder charges he'd faced? The criteria for first-degree murder is that it must have been proven to be planned, deliberate, and premeditated, with the implication that he acted alone. The jury obviously didn't believe this was the case. After the verdict, Don Adam, the now-retired member of the RCMP who successfully elicited Robert Picton's partial confession, held a press conference to essentially say the verdict was a joke and full justice was not served.

Starting point is 01:11:39 He wholeheartedly believed that Robert planned the murders and said from his own experience interrogating the man that the claims he was not intelligent enough to commit the crimes himself were false. Quote, Willie Picton is a chameleon. Let's not be confused about his capabilities. He got every break in the world and people underestimated him. I was left sitting there looking into his eyes with a real sense of malignant evil. I just had the smallest sense he was playing with me and of what it must have been like for those women when they were in his control, and it didn't make me happy.

Starting point is 01:12:17 Don also clarified to the questioning public about why Dinah Taylor and David Picton weren't charged, saying there just wasn't any evidence that they had anything to do with the murders. Before sentencing, the court heard their victim impact statements, 18 in total. Each family only had five minutes to describe their feelings and the impact of the loss of their loved one. They described the horror of imagining how they died and were disposed of. They spoke of how haunted they were and how they'd been living an ongoing nightmare. Lynn Frey delivered a statement written by Brittany, Marnie Frey's daughter. Quote,

Starting point is 01:13:01 I'm here for my real mother. I don't have much to say, but Mr. Picton, why did you hurt my mother and these other women? When you took her from me, it was like ripping out my heart. Marnie, if you were here, I would have so many questions to ask you. Marnie, I miss you. Crown Attorney Mike Petrie read several statements from family members who are unable to read it themselves. Brenda Wolfe's mother wrote, Quote, There is a pain in my heart that will not heal. If the teardrops I shed make a pathway to heaven, I would walk all the way and bring you home, hold you in my arms again and never let you go.

Starting point is 01:13:41 Mike Petrie could hardly speak as he finished the statements and the courtroom was now filled with people tearful or weeping. The judge sentenced Robert Picton to six life sentences to be served concurrently, that's at the same time, with no eligibility for parole for the maximum of 25 years. Quote, Mr Picton's conduct was murderous and repeatedly so. I cannot know the details of what happened. I do know this. Each of these women were murdered and the remains were dismembered. What happened to them was senseless and despicable.

Starting point is 01:14:18 Nothing I can say can adequately express the revulsion the community feels at the killings. When the judge asked Robert if he wanted to make a statement, he looked as though he was going to say something, but his lawyer Peter Richie spoke up instead. He said Robert did want to say something, but because he would be going to trial again for the remaining 20 charges, he had accepted advice to stay quiet at this time. The next year, 2008, the Crown asked for a new trial, arguing that Robert should have been tried on all 26 counts of murder instead of having it reduced to six. At the same time, the defence launched an appeal saying that the judge erred in his final instructions to the jury.

Starting point is 01:15:05 18 months later, in July 2009, the British Columbian Court of Appeal rejected that appeal, so Robert's defence launched an appeal to the Supreme Court of Canada, but in 2010, it was rejected. And just days later, the court announced that Robert wouldn't face prosecution on the remaining 20 murder charges, something that greatly upset the families of those 20 victims. Meanwhile, the case was so massive that people didn't realise there were still investigators working it and looking for missing women. By October 2009, they now had considerable DNA evidence from 32 missing women and recommended that Robert Picton be charged with six more murders, Sharon Abraham, Stephanie Lane, Yvonne Boone, Jackie Murdoch, Dawn Cray and Nancy Clark.

Starting point is 01:16:02 Obviously, they realised the chances of any action being taken on this recommendation were slim to none, but went ahead anyway. What became of the Vancouver Police Department? Did anyone learn any lessons from this? In 2010, they announced that they'd conducted an exhaustive management review of the missing women investigation and that the findings would be made available to the public in due course. And in July of 2010, they held a press conference and apologised to the families of the victims. Deputy Chief Doug Lapard said, quote, On my behalf and on behalf of the Vancouver Police Department and all of the men and women who worked on this investigation, we say how sorry we are for your losses and because we did not catch this monster sooner.

Starting point is 01:16:55 He said he wished they could undo the mistakes they made and arrested Robert sooner. Also in 2010, Robert Picton spoke with CTV News, saying police were still asking him for new details on the case, quote, They're still hunting, they're looking for a scapegoat. He claimed he was tricked into admitting the crimes to an undercover officer in the jail cell, quote, They didn't understand me, they didn't get anything right, it's a one-sided story. They can dream up something what they believe was there, that's it, their tunnel vision to that. When asked who he would like to place blame on instead, Robert suggested the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club as well as various people who were hanging on the farm.

Starting point is 01:17:44 He said he wanted to take the stand but his lawyers wouldn't let them, quote, I could blow the whole thing apart. Despite his repeated protests of innocence, Robert Picton never gave any additional details or pointed the finger at anyone. CTV News showed the interview transcript to Vancouver forensic psychologist Stephen Hart, who said it showed a lack of remorse and empathy and an arrogance, quote, Those characteristics go together and make it seem as if there's a psychopathic personality disorder. In 2010, the BC government commissioned the Missing Women Commission of Inquiry, with Wally Opel QC, a former judge and BC Attorney General,

Starting point is 01:18:32 to investigate the circumstances that led to Robert Picton being able to offend for so long. The commission's final report submission to the Attorney General was dated November 19, 2012, released to the public the following month. It was scathing. Wally Opel presented a summary of his findings at a press conference. I have come to the conclusion that there was systemic bias by the police in the women's investigations. He is greeted with both cheers and jeers. Missing Women's Inquiry Commissioner Wally Opel speaks to the report released today, entitled Forsaken.

Starting point is 01:19:20 In his more than 1,400 pages, detailing why it took so long to stop a serial killer. He concludes that the police response would have been different were the missing women from affluent neighborhoods rather than Vancouver's notorious downtown east side. Investigations of missing and murdered women were characterized by blatant police failures and by public indifference. Missing and murdered women were forsaken twice, once by society at large and again by the police. Wally Opel's assessment of how the RCMP and Vancouver police ineptly tracked a serial killer is about as harsh as it comes. The Mounties had Robert Pickton in their grasp as early as 1997, but Opel says not one senior officer on either force made the case of the missing sex trade workers a priority.

Starting point is 01:20:10 Some of what was done, in many cases, what was not done during the missing women's investigations is simply incomprehensible. The report detailed seven critical police failures that included a failure to take proper reports on missing women and then act on them, not using available information to connect the dots and realize a serial killer was posing significant ongoing public risk, an utter failure to protect the women, not using available investigative strategies to solve the case, and failure to coordinate between agencies. The report made 63 recommendations that included funding for 24-hour drop-in centers, a healing fund for the families of missing women, a compensation fund for the children of missing women, establishing a Greater Vancouver Regional Police Force,

Starting point is 01:21:04 and enhanced police training on how to deal with vulnerable community members as well as enhancing knowledge of the history and current status of Aboriginal people. The report was launched to mix reactions from the families. Many Aboriginal groups and activists interrupted Opel today, upset about not being part of the process, or complaining that he as a former BC cabinet minister had no credibility. The families themselves were more nuanced in their assessment. Yes, I think most of it he did get it right. A lot of what I was looking for from this inquiry was in there.

Starting point is 01:21:41 There are 62 recommendations and people need to read them carefully. Among them, that the government establish a healing fund for the children of the missing women, such as Jeannie DeVries. She wore an imprint of her dead mother, Sarah, on her t-shirt today. This money is like, I can do, put it away for school. Because my dream is to become a trauma therapist. BC government publicly announced that they had made an immediate commitment to consider all the recommendations. They were taking this very seriously.

Starting point is 01:22:13 Starting from May 2013, the children of 13 of Robert Picton's victims launched a lawsuit against Picton and his brother David, sister Linda, the BC provincial government, and the city of Vancouver. The suit claimed police and the crown failed to warn women in the downtown east side that a serial killer may have been on the loose. Robert Picton filed a defence, denying any responsibility, but again not offering up any further details. David Picton also filed a statement of defence, denying any knowledge of what his brother was doing

Starting point is 01:22:52 and rejecting the family's claim that he should be held liable for the women's deaths. As we know, it was not only the victims themselves who suffered irrevocably. Dozens of children lost their mothers to violent and gruesome ends because of Robert Picton, which wasn't helped by the shoddy work of the Vancouver police. Many of these children were bounced around from foster home to foster home and ended up leading similar lives to their mothers. In March 2014, the federal and BC governments together with the city of Vancouver announced that a compensation fund was established for these children of proven victims of Robert Picton,

Starting point is 01:23:36 as well as other children of missing and murdered women from the downtown east side. Each of the 98 children were eligible for a $50,000 share of the $4.5 million compensation fund. Of course, you can't put value on the life of a human being, but this was at least something. This fund was part in response to the report recommendation and also in response to the civil suit filed by the children. At the time, 11 of the 13 families agreed to the terms and settled their civil lawsuit. In 2016, Robert Picton wrote and published a book proclaiming his innocence. The book, Picton in his own words, printed by a Colorado based publishing company,

Starting point is 01:24:27 was available for $20 on Amazon in the early months of that year. In its 144 pages, Robert rambles about his innocence through transcripts of police interrogations and passages from the Bible. Due to the outrage from the families of the victims, as well as discussed from the public, Amazon quickly removed the book. So where are we now? In 2009, David Picton and Linda Wright launched a lawsuit against the government, demanding to be compensated because the task force destroyed the farm when they were looking for evidence.

Starting point is 01:25:06 The lawsuit still hadn't gone to court in 2011 and I couldn't find any further information on where it was at. Remember when David Picton sexually assaulted an employee in a site trailer? For this charge, David Picton only received a small fine and one year of probation, but his employees continued to threaten the woman, including a threat to chop her up into pieces. In 2015, the brave woman took him to court for psychological trauma and lost earnings. She won and was awarded $45,000. In 2010, Gina Houston passed away from breast cancer. Dinah Taylor remained a person of interest in the deaths of Andrea Josbury, Mona Wilson and Serena Abbotsway,

Starting point is 01:25:58 who disappeared in 2001 when Taylor was hanging around the farm. As for the general public, as the years go on, the law and rumors about the case continue to fester. Many more stories about other horrors that were said to have happened on the farm are whispered in small circles. Many members of the community continue to believe and openly discuss the fact that Robert must have had help with these crimes. The fact that Robert Picton seemed to have a love-hate relationship with women is also a discussion point. Why did he always have female companionship, women around him that he helped out with money, food and drugs, yet viewed so many other women as worthless and disposable? We will likely never know. Today, Robert Picton is 68 years old and serving his sentence in the Maximum Security Kent Institution in BC.

Starting point is 01:26:57 He will be able to apply for day parole and unascorted absences in 2024 and for full parole in 2027, but it's unlikely he will ever get out of jail. But what about the families of his victims? It's unlikely that they felt like they received the justice they deserved. Unfortunately, though, what they did receive will have to do. Over the years, many ideas have been floated to memorialise the victims and the tragedies that occurred, including a healing garden, memorial plaques and a totem pole. But one constant is that each year on February 14, thousands gather together in the downtown Eastside to walk in memory of the women who lost their lives to violence, poverty and illness.

Starting point is 01:27:52 Some marchers beat drums, some sing, and others carry photographs of their deceased loved ones. Even though the lives of the women were not valued enough for society to take action, their memories will live on in the hearts of those they left behind. Thanks for listening. If you recognise the voices, Robert Picton was played by Robin Water from the Trail Went Cold podcast, and the undercover agent was played by Jordan Bonaparte from the Nighttime podcast. Both are highly recommended podcasts. If you wanted to look into this case further, I highly recommend Stevie Cameron's book On the Farm.

Starting point is 01:28:36 Honestly, this is the definitive book on this case up until 2010. It's nearly 700 pages long and goes into fine detail. There's a lot more information to discover on this case and it's also a really well-written book. That's On the Farm by Stevie Cameron. The documentary The Pig Farm includes interviews with lots of the women on the downtown Eastside as well as Gina Houston, Dinah Taylor, Lynn Ellingson, Andrew Bellwood, a bunch of characters from the VPD, and audio of Robert Picton from his audio diaries. It's great if you want to put a face or a voice to a name.

Starting point is 01:29:18 Also, I wanted to refer you to the Canada Land Commons podcast. They recently released a two-part series called Invisible Victims, How Police Botched the Robert Picton Case. It features a really insightful interview with Laura Machena, who talks about his time with the Vancouver Police Department during Robert Picton's rampage. It's well worth a listen. I've included links to all these references in the show notes. I'm going to end this series off on a different note.

Starting point is 01:29:50 I was thrilled to be contacted by Sarah Albury, an Australian singer-songwriter who was living in Vancouver right around the time the Robert Picton trial was big news. She spent some time in the downtown Eastside and described being there as such a powerful experience that it inspired her to write a song called Pigeon Park, named after a little park in the area. It's an absolutely beautiful song, and Sarah was happy to let me use it as the perfect ending to this series. Pigeon Park was written by Sarah Albury

Starting point is 01:30:26 and performed by her band Girl Most Likely from their EP Empty Room. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you soon. I'm the Kikker The Decay Our men in silver towers Watch the city crumble away Middle winches, buildings Holding everything in place While the sticks and shells of people

Starting point is 01:31:48 Take their part in the human race Ooh, company Ooh, company Ooh, company Ooh, company

Canadian True Crime - 18 Robert Pickton - Part 4

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.