Canadian True Crime - Karen and Krista Hart—Part 2

Episode Date: January 22, 2022

[ Part 2 of 2 ] The conclusion of this case of a murder investigation that forever changed the face of the Canadian justice system. Further reading:Mr. Big: The Investigation into the Deaths of Karen and Krista Hart by Colleen Lewis and Jennifer Hicks Podcast recommendation:Casefile - Daniel Morcombe episode 54  Credits:Research and writing: Emily G. Thompson and Eileen MacfarlaneContent advice: Aja RomanoAudio editing and production: We Talk of Dreams Sound design, additional research and writing: Kristi LeeDisclaimer voiced by the host of True The full list of credits and information sources can be found on the page for this episode at canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes. Thanks for supporting our sponsors!See the special offer codes here Ad-free episodes:All episodes, ad-free and often early on Patreon and Supercast. Website and social medias:Website: www.canadiantruecrime.caFacebook: facebook.com/CanadianTrueCrimeTwitter: @CanadianTCpodInstagram: @CanadianTrueCrimePodInstagram: @kristileehello Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. This is part two of a two-part series. If you haven't listened to part one yet, I recommend you go and do that. It'll make a whole lot more sense. Canadian True Crime is a completely independent production funded mainly through advertising. The podcast often has coarse language and disturbing content. It's not for everyone.

Where we left off, an undercover officer had been at a bar with Nelson Hart, and they ended up casually discussing how far they would go for the criminal gang. The undercover agent, Paul, was surprised when Nelson actually pointed to a picture of Karen and Krista and said that he got rid of them, they were now in the ground. Paul wasn't recording the conversation so it wouldn't be admissible as a confession in court and the RCMP still wanted to work their way towards a meeting with Mr Big where they would get a full recorded confession in a scenario that they were in control of. But this surprise disclosure of information from Nelson was assurance that they

were on the right track. According to court documents, in preparation for this big meeting, the undercover officers constantly emphasized the importance of loyalty, honesty, and trust within the crime syndicate. In fact, they even staged a scene where one undercover officer was reprimanded for speaking to others about business dealings, and a show was made of slapping him on the face in front of Nelson. The goal was to demonstrate what might happen if that trust was broken. Nelson took note. Then the RCMP started laying the foundations for the climactic meeting with Mr Big. During a trip to Vancouver, Nelson was told that there was a massive deal coming in the future that could set him up financially, and he could personally net between $20,000 and $25,000 if he participated in it. if he participated in it. Nelson was of course elated to hear this, but it was casually dropped into the conversation that his involvement would need to be approved by the big boss first.

One hurdle. The next trip was to Toronto, where Nelson was shown a big pile of cash that amounted to $175,000. He was told that it was the down payment towards that big deal they'd spoken about. As the fake deal deadline approached, Nelson was told that to get Mr. Big's approval to work on the job, they would need to do a background check on him to make sure he was trustworthy, wasn't a rat, and didn't have any heat on him that could jeopardize the gang. Nelson provided the relevant details for the background check. On a subsequent trip to Montreal, he was informed that they had run the check, but a problem had surfaced, and Nelson wouldn't be allowed to work with the organization until

the issue was resolved. No further information was given to him about what the issue was and he likely stewed about the possibility of missing out on this big deal. The RCMP knew how much his new friends meant to him. He told them frequently that he loved them and that he saw them as brothers. They also knew that he didn't want to go back to his old life of poverty and social isolation. Eventually, he was told that he would have to meet with the Big Boss to iron everything out. With the carrot of money and friendship dangled before him, and the possibility it could be whipped away at any moment, Nelson was urged to be honest with Mr Big when the time came.

Court documents detailed what happened at the first meeting with Mr Big. When Nelson was first introduced to the undercover officer playing the top boss, he thanked him profusely, telling him that working for the organisation had turned his life around and he was very grateful. Mr Big soon changed the subject, driving home the importance of honesty and trust, telling Nelson that the minute that trust is gone, everything is gone. And then Mr Big turned to the issue at hand. He told Nelson that there were rumors that the RCMP might be reopening the investigation into the deaths of his daughters, and that might bring some heat down on their criminal enterprise.

Mr. Big then asserted to Nelson that they knew he had killed his daughters, they just needed to know why. killed his daughters. They just needed to know why. Now, Nelson told the last story he'd told investigators, which was that he had suffered from an epileptic seizure and didn't know how Karen and Krista ended up in the water. It was an accident. Mr. Big dismissed this explanation outright. Quote, no, don't go with the seizure stuff. You're lying to me on this, okay? He again cited the importance of being truthful. Nelson insisted that it was the truth, but was again scolded by Mr. Big. He told Nelson to try again and this time not to lie to him. Nelson tried again and said the same story, but was again scolded. Nelson was then asked point blank, how did he kill his daughters? This was the third time he was asked and according

to court documents, Nelson said that they fell over the wharf at the park. When asked for more details, Nelson said in his thick Newfoundland accent, quote, Nelson stood up to demonstrate, making a forward motion with his right shoulder and chest, explaining, I shoved him like that. He said after the girls were in the water, he didn't stick around. He just walked away and forgot about it. He said he then purposely drove back to Gander slowly.

Quote, I knew it was a long ways from town, so by the time I got back, they'd be dead to make sure they were gone. The big boss then asked Nelson why he chose to kill his daughters by drowning them. He said they were small, the water was deep, he knew they couldn't swim, and drowning would be a quicker death for the girls, one where he thought they wouldn't suffer. He added, quote, there'd be no blood and no DNA because it was water, right? There'd be no blood and no DNA because it was water, right? Next was motive. Nelson was asked why he killed the girls,

and he said he was worried that Child Protection Services was going to take them away and place them with his brother. Quote, When the big boss remarked that it seemed like the perfect murder, Nelson responded, it was pretty well organized. The Big Boss then replied, you must be a thinker, eh? To which Nelson said, sometimes it pays to be that way. Nelson told Mr. Big that this was the first time he had told this story to anyone. Two days later, Nelson returned to Little Harbour with Paul, one of the undercover officers that he had grown close to. Mr Big wanted him to re-enact exactly what happened that day so they had all the facts. And of course, this meeting was secretly recorded

too. According to court documents, before they arrived at the site for the reenactment, Nelson remarked that if he had the money he had now, because of his work with the crime gang, he could have afforded to hire a good lawyer to stop his brother from getting custody of the girls and that way he wouldn't have had to kill them. Now it would later be pointed out that while child protection services were regularly visiting the home to make sure Krista and Karen's needs were being met, they were not actively seeking to have them placed with Nelson's brother Mervyn, it was simply one of the options suggested the last time the family were homeless. In any event, that was Nelson's story, and he and the undercover officer Paul walked to the end of the wharf, and Paul knelt down to mimic the height of the three-year-olds

before asking Nelson to demonstrate what he did next, how exactly he pushed them into the water. Now Nelson had verbally told Mr Big that he used his shoulder to nudge Karen and Krista into the water, but at the wharf, when asked to recreate what happened physically, he nudged Paul from behind with his knee. This seemed to be enough for the RCMP to press charges. On June 13, 2005, four days after Nelson's confession to the Big Boss and almost three years after the tragedy, Nelson Hart was arrested and charged with two counts of first-degree murder. According to court documents, the person he called for help after arrest was not his wife Jennifer, but Pat, the undercover RCMP officer who he was closest to. That's how highly he considered his new friends.

He applied for bail the following month and it was denied. Nelson pleaded not guilty to the charges and the long-awaited trial was scheduled to begin in Gander in February of 2007. While Nelson had been arrested and charged with the murders, the town of Gander and beyond still didn't know what kind of evidence or motive the Crown would be presenting for the deaths of Gander and beyond still didn't know what kind of evidence or motive the Crown would be presenting for the deaths of Karen and Krista. No one had any knowledge of what had gone on during the Mr Big investigation. Karen and Krista's mother, Jennifer, told the National Post that she wholeheartedly believed that Nelson was innocent. She said she had tried to block out what had happened to their daughters and with the trial approaching she was terrified about having to live it all over again. After Nelson's arrest, Jennifer visited him once a week but the visits were always from behind a

pane of glass. She said first her children had been taken away from her and then she felt like the same thing was happening with her husband. Karen and Krista were Jennifer and Nelson's only children and Jennifer stated she never wanted to have any others but she was standing by her husband. Jennifer was going to be one of the key witnesses during the trial and beforehand she spoke about her state of mind, saying that she had days where she sprung out of bed and was almost on autopilot and then other days when she couldn't get out of bed at all. Quote, what's the point right? But I'm really worried that one of these days it's going to hit me like a ton of

bricks and I won't know how to handle it. The trial was presided over by Newfoundland Supreme Court Justice Wayne Diamond. Members of the Hart and Hicks families and their loved ones shuffled into the courtroom, including Nelson's mother Pearl, who told CBC News that she firmly believed her son was innocent. Curious onlookers were also gathered there to witness the controversial trial. Crown Prosecutor Mark Linen told the court that the Crown believed Nelson's motivation for murdering his only two children was that he feared they were going to be taken away by social services and potentially given to his brother Mervyn or even his mother Pearl. The jury heard a summary of the undercover sting operation, how Nelson had been lured by money to participate in what he believed was an elaborate crime syndicate.

The Crown said at first, Nelson stuck to his version of events, that he had suffered from an epileptic seizure and his two daughters had died during a tragic accident. and his two daughters had died during a tragic accident. But when he became more comfortable with the crime syndicate, he insinuated the first time that he had killed his daughters. The Crown told the court that Nelson had not been prompted to confess the first time at the Montreal bar. He volunteered the information willingly. That conversation was not recorded, but the court would be reviewing

recordings from the second and third confessions, the one given to Mr. Big and the recreation at Little Harbor. When it came to the defense's case, defense lawyer Derek Hogan told the court that Nelson did have a seizure on the morning of the tragedy. That was the truth. And Nelson's side of the story about the confessions was this. When it came to that original vague confession that he gave in Montreal, the one that wasn't recorded where he took the photos out of his wallet, Nelson denied that conversation ever happened. And as you'll remember, in his meeting with Mr. Big two months later, he said that this was the first time he'd told that story to anyone. When it came to the confession to Mr. Big and the other confession that was part of the recreation two days later,

his lawyer told the court, quote, Common sense tells us to believe a confession, but if a person is paid or intimidated or both, we would tend not to believe it. Nelson's defense was that his confessions to the undercover RCMP officers were false. He had been led to believe that he was working for a crime syndicate far more powerful than even the Hells Angels, and that the tactics they had used during the undercover operation had left him feeling intimidated. The defense went on to describe the undercover operation as something that sounded like a plot to a detective thriller, and Nelson had been led to believe that the undercover investigators

were not just criminal friends, but actually very dangerous mobsters. And when it came to the tactics that the RCMP investigators allegedly used in securing the confession from Nelson, his lawyer told the jury, quote, what they did was not subtle. The court heard that for four months, Nelson believed he was engaging in criminal activity. He had been led to believe that he was transporting stolen items and breaking into homes for the non-existent gang. During the sting, Nelson had been paid about $15,000 and was led to believe that he would be paid an additional $25,000 for that upcoming deal if he could get Mr. Big to approve his participation. His lawyer told the court, quote, to say he killed his daughters because that way he gets $25,000. Nelson was described as nothing more than a grief-stricken father who had become victim of a hard-boiled undercover sting operation

by the RCMP, who strongly believed that he was guilty of murdering his two daughters. One of the first pieces of evidence to be presented to the jury was a recording of the conversation Nelson had with RCMP investigators about two months after the girls died, the one where he contacted them to tell them he had actually suffered from an epileptic seizure that day. The jury heard that RCMP investigators were pushing hard for a confession after that, but Nelson denied that he was in any way involved with the girls going into the water. The Crown called Nelson's brother-in-law, Winston, who told the court about a strange conversation he had with Nelson about four

months before Karen and Krista died. The brothers-in-law were talking about the news of another family in St. John's, Newfoundland, who were at risk of losing their children, and Nelson made an ominous comment. He said, quote, I would make away with them before anyone would take them. Winston said that at the time, he hadn't thought anything of the comment. Quote, We both kind of said it, we were laughing, not really serious it seemed. But the comment came flooding back to Winston on the day of the tragedy. He grappled with it for just over two weeks before making the decision to

go to the RCMP and tell them about it. He also told them that after that conversation, Nelson had a seizure and Winston felt fearful about Nelson being home with the girls, describing to investigators that he feared one day Nelson might have a seizure while driving with the girls in his car and get involved in a car crash. Under cross-examination by the defence, Winston once again confirmed that his perception of the original comments about making away with the kids before anyone could take them had been made in a joking manner. Next to testify was two social workers

who had been assigned to work with the Hart family four months before Karen and Krista died. One testified that their only concern was that the Harts could provide food and shelter for their children. There were no concerns about physical abuse. The other social worker told the courtroom about her visit to check on the family just six days before the girls drowned, when Nelson seemed very angry with her. Quote, he wanted to know why I was coming so often. He was upset, saying people in the town were talking about it and that I was causing problems for them. The social worker also discussed the couple's concerns about Karen's behaviour and her own observation that day that Karen and Krista had obvious discipline problems, but she had no concerns about physical abuse. Medical Examiner Simon Avis walked the jury through Karen and Krista's manner of death,

saying that the original determination from the Deputy Medical Examiner was that the drownings were accidental. There was no evidence to suggest injury or trauma and no evidence to suggest that the deaths were anything other than accidental. However, eight months later, the chief reviewed the cases and couldn't agree with the findings of his colleague. Quote, I just did not feel I had sufficient information to classify it as an accident. He said that he then changed the manner of death from accidental to undetermined, but there was no mention of homicide. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. with the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAST Creative, I want to introduce you to someone who took his passion for cannabis, turned it into a career and is now an industry trailblazer. This is Nico Soziac. He's the Chief Financial Officer of Canara Biotech, a prominent producer based in Montreal. Nico, I know that you've had a passion for cannabis

for quite a few years, but you seem a lot younger than what I was expecting. I have to know how and when you got into the cannabis business. Yeah, absolutely. I look younger, but I'm aging by the day. But no, I'm 35 years old. I got into cannabis about five years ago. I started with Canara. But you were a consumer before that. Yeah, I've been a consumer. I had friends in the legacy side of the business and watched what they did. I tried the different strains and genetics, watched how they grew.

Really found a passion for cannabis and the products. But my professional career is an accountant. So while I had a passion for cannabis, I was also a straight-A student. Wow. And then Canada decided to legalize cannabis. And that was when I was like, okay, this is kind of my calling. I have to try to figure out how do I can get into the industry. And Canara had just became a public company.

I joined them in April 2019 and built the finance department here at Canara and worked with the founder. And at one point, I was given the keys to that. And now I'm here today. Wow, that's such a cool story. So how do you feel about being called a trailblazer in the legal market now? It's an honor. I've looked up to many trailblazers in this industry today that come from the legacy side that went to legal, you know, I'm happy to be part of that. So actually, I wanted to ask you about the legacy market. How did you incorporate

it into operations on the legal side? I don't pretend that the cannabis market just got created in 2017. Right. For me, legacy means that everyone that's been working, all the businesses that have been in the industry pre-legalization. I'm not going to reinvent the wheel in terms of thinking I know what consumers want. There's been an industry that's been built for many, many, many years. So it's all the ideas and creations that were pre-legalization, figuring out how do we evolve that into the legal side with all the regulatory frameworks. What would you say is the best part of working in the legal market? Knowing that your product is clean, knowing what you're consuming, we're ensuring quality, we're ensuring the price. I think we're ahead of other industries. Okay, so final question. What gets you excited to go to work every day?

This is my dream. This is my passion. I get excited. Work doesn't feel like work for me. When you're creating things that you dream about, I give the idea to the team. The team is able to execute different innovations. That's what really gets me excited. Thanks for listening to this Trailblazers story brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAST Creative. If you like the trail Nico Soziak is blazing,

you will love what's happening in legal cannabis. Visit ocs.ca slash trailblazers to learn more. On the second week of the trial, Jennifer took to the witness stand to testify about what happened from her side. She told the court about being home that Sunday morning, getting the girls ready for the demolition derby, when Nelson surprised her by offering to take them to Little Harbour. That would give her some peace and quiet to get herself ready, and they would swing back and pick her up on the way back. it to get herself ready, and they would swing back and pick her up on the way back. But Jennifer was surprised when Nelson burst in the door much sooner than expected, without the girls, and in a state of panic, repeatedly shouting, Krista fell in the water. From there, Jennifer described how they

sped back to Little Harbour to try and save Krista, completely oblivious to the fact that Karen too was missing and seeming to forget that neither of them could swim. Jennifer described Nelson's character as a scared and insecure man. Under cross-examination by the defence, she was asked, would it be accurate to say he gets frightened over every little thing? She replied, mostly yes. As Jennifer testified, Nelson broke down in tears at the defendant's table. He would become emotional as his mother Pearl testified. She took the jury through Nelson's lifelong battle with epilepsy, describing what often happened during his grand mal seizures, some of which lasted up to five minutes. She said Nelson didn't want Karen and Krista to see him when he was having a seizure because the girls were said to be afraid.

So he would pace back and forth, throw dishes in the sink and hide in the bathroom. Pearl admitted that there were times where she questioned whether her son should be left alone with Karen and Krista. She also told a story about one day, about two months after the girls died, when Nelson came to her, sat at the kitchen table and started to cry, before telling her that he had a seizure that day, but he hadn't told police because he was scared he'd lose his driver's license. Pearl said her son's license was very important to him, but she urged him to tell the RCMP about the seizure, which he did.

which he did. The most highly anticipated moment of the trial came when evidence was presented about the elaborate undercover sting operation that led to Nelson's confessions. An undercover RCMP investigator who posed as a member of the fictional crime gang, the one that we've referred to as Paul, told the court about key details of the operation, with his own identity protected by a publication ban. He explained that when Nelson was offered the fictitious job with the trucking company, he said, I have no kids, thank God for that. Paul told the court that Nelson presented it like a selling feature. He took the jury through the unexpected confession at the Montreal Sports Bar and then detailed the meeting with Mr. Big, telling the jury that when he told Nelson the so-called Big Boss had found something during a background check, Nelson became extremely upset and feared that he was going to be thrown out of

the crime syndicate. Quote, he said he would rather have a call saying his mother was dead than losing the group. Paul, the undercover officer, told the court that after the confession, he asked Nelson if anyone else knew that he had killed his daughters and Nelson allegedly replied that his wife Jennifer did not know but his mother Pearl did. Pearl who was watching the proceedings from the courtroom had a restrained silent outburst of denial and as court was adjourned for the day she stormed out of the courtroom. She shared her dismay at that testimony with the media who had congregated outside the courtroom, referring to the case against her son as one big cover-up. Paul also told the court about how he had witnessed Nelson having an

epileptic seizure one day during the undercover operation. The 90-minute confession that Nelson gave to Mr. Big was played aloud for the jury to hear. In the recording, Nelson said that he had killed Karen and Krista on purpose by shoving them off the wharf with his shoulder. And then a second tape was shown, the recreation at Little Harbor. Nelson took an undercover RCMP officer to the scene where he allegedly pushed the girls into the water and demonstrated using his knee to push them in. The Mr Big evidence was the final piece of evidence presented by the Crown Prosecution. It was the cornerstone of their case against Nelson, and they had anticipated that the callous things he'd said about his daughters to undercover officers would leave a lasting impression on the jury. being entered into evidence, arguing that they were invalid because Nelson had given them under fear of the crime syndicate, but this was denied. Nelson's defense team would call five witnesses

whose combined testimony lasted for only about half a day. Because their position was that Nelson suffered a seizure and had no idea how Krista and Karen ended up in the water, they wanted to present testimony about the effect that Nelson's epilepsy had on his life. Nelson's family physician for over 30 years confirmed that he had treated Nelson since 1976 for severe epilepsy, and brain surgery was considered on a number of occasions. The court heard that Nelson's seizures were triggered by overexcitement, overstimulation and stress. The doctor said that he had witnessed Nelson having seizures but told the court that Nelson was not always truthful about the frequency or severity of them. Nelson was

referred to a different doctor for specialist treatment and that doctor testified that the symptoms of epileptic seizures can include confusion, blackouts and memory loss. And after the seizure there is a hangover period before the person returns to feeling normal again, which varies from a few minutes to a few hours. Now this testimony was in relation to Nelson saying he had a seizure and didn't know what happened with the girls and then he got straight back in the car and drove to pick up Jennifer. The doctor said that depending on the severity of the seizure, it could take anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours to recover. And if the person is driving when the seizure starts, it's possible for them to continue operating their vehicles with minor lapses. But they wouldn't be able to get in a car, turn on the ignition and begin driving while they were having a seizure.

This testimony wasn't challenged by evidence or cross-examination, and while it was helpful insight into Nelson's ability to drive just after a seizure, it didn't really answer any questions since the normalization period after a seizure varies so greatly. period after a seizure varies so greatly. Nelson was going to testify in his own defense, but on the final day, he asked the court for a special request. He wanted the public excluded from the courtroom, and a voir dire, or a small trial within a trial, was held to decide on this. a small trial within a trial, was held to decide on this. He testified during that proceeding that he can't always tell when a seizure is about to occur, nor can he predict how long it and its effects will persist. He explained that he was never good at talking in front of a crowd and was concerned that the pressure and stress might cause him to have a seizure on the

witness stand. Nelson's request for accommodations for his medical condition was denied. The judge said that stress was an insufficient reason for excluding the public from the courtroom. While Nelson's lawyer, Derek Hogan, would tell CBC News that he begged his client to still testify, Nelson flat out refused. In closing arguments, the defence told the court that Nelson had a long history of lying to everyone over the years, including lying about his epilepsy to health officials. about his epilepsy to health officials. It stood to reason then that Nelson Hart was such an adept liar that he would lie to undercover RCMP investigators who were posing as members of the crime syndicate, even lying about minor things when he felt it could benefit him. Quote, if Nelson's an accomplished liar, why believe anything he has to say, including his Nelson was described as not a killer, but just a man who was so strapped for cash that he joined what he believed was a crime syndicate, and then grew to be intimidated by the undercover RCMP officers

that he believed were serious mobsters. When it came to the Crown's closing arguments, the prosecutor told the court that the Crown believes the lie Nelson Hart told was where he claimed to have had a seizure at the lake. He couldn't swim, but also made no attempt to enter the water to rescue his daughters, and he drove home to get his wife to help, but she also couldn't swim. He made no attempt to use the two cell phones he had with him on the day, and the recording of him confessing showed him giving details in a calm and relaxed manner. About the defense's claim that Nelson felt intimidated and scared by the RCMP officers, the Crown reminded the court that the undercover officers had fostered an environment where he would feel comfortable to tell them anything,

and this was evidenced by the fact that Nelson told them he loved them and called them brothers. The crux of the case would be whether the jury believed that Nelson was being truthful during those recorded confessions, or whether, much like his defense contended, he was coerced into confessing. The jury deliberated for two days before returning with a verdict. The jury deliberated for two days before returning with a verdict. They found Nelson Hart guilty of the first-degree murder of his daughters, Karen and Krista Hart. As the verdict was read aloud, Nelson broke down in tears. He received an automatic sentence of life in prison with no parole eligibility for 25 years. Jennifer stormed out of the courtroom. The court then adjourned for a few minutes before returning to hear a

statement from Nelson. He emphasized that he had twice tried to tell Mr. Big that he suffered from a seizure on the morning that Karen and Krista drowned, but that explanation wasn't satisfactory. Quote, I'd like for the people of this town and the public of this town to know what was done to me. I was told not to go against the crime boss. I tried to tell him the truth, but he didn't believe that. A couple of days after the verdict was handed down, Nelson announced that he was going to be appealing his conviction. He claimed that RCMP investigators had lied to him and that he was not granted a fair trial.

He told CBC News that he had made up the story about pushing Karen and Krista into the water because it was clear that that was what the undercover RCMP investigators had wanted to hear. Quote, I thought basically what it was going to be was to confess to something I didn't do or have a few of my ribs broken. When it came to appealing, though, the process was held up because Nelson was convinced

that the legal system was in cahoots with the RCMP to set him up. After finding out that almost the entire life he'd lived in those four months was completely fake, his new friends and the lifestyle he envisioned setting up for himself was all fake, he was left with serious trust issues which came into play when it came to getting representation for himself. Nelson couldn't afford his own lawyer, but felt that legal aid was also behind the conspiracy. He was able to choose a lawyer which legal aid commission funds would pay for, but he kiboshed that too. mission funds would pay for, but he kiboshed that too. The following year, 2008, Nelson appeared in court via video link requesting that the Newfoundland Supreme Court of Appeal pay for an

appeal lawyer of his choice or put a hold on his first-degree murder conviction proceedings. By this point, because of his indecision over representation, he was 10 months past the deadline. It would be decided that Nelson could select his own appeal lawyer from the private bar and that the Attorney General would pay for it, not the Legal Aid Commission funds. Nelson initially communicated with well-known Newfoundland and Labrador defense lawyer Rosellen Sullivan. Regular listeners of this podcast might remember Ms. Sullivan defended Nicholas Villeneuve, the perpetrator of the fatal car crash in episode 84, The Lush and Whiteway Families. But in this case, for some reason, when push came to shove, Nelson refused to speak with

Ms. Sullivan, and then he refused to participate in court proceedings altogether. Eventually, Nelson informed the court that he had changed his mind and decided to hire her after all. But things continued to move very slowly over the next few years, with a lot of legal wranglings until it had reached a point of limbo. Nelson had hired and fired several lawyers and had refused legal help because of trust issues. He mistrusted virtually everyone who had become involved in his case, so much so that it put a major pause on everything. Per court documents, Nelson had stated his criteria for counsel would be someone with 20 or more years of experience with criminal law, especially with serious offenses such as murder,

someone who was trustworthy and someone who had a winning record. And he determined that no one had ever met his criteria. In July of 2011, nine years after Karen and Krista died, Jennifer took the unusual step of applying to be her husband's legal guardian. Nelson had been scheduled to appear in court for the proceeding with her, but he didn't show up. He refused to leave his jail cell. See, Jennifer had raised concerns about Nelson's mental health, along with his mother Pearl. According to Jennifer, Nelson's behavior had changed dramatically since he was arrested and convicted, and he started to believe that everything was a conspiracy theory. He even started refusing to let his own wife visit him in prison, out of fear that her visits were part of the undercover sting operation that had nabbed him.

him. He'd written letters to her where he said he feared his prison cell had been bugged and that everything he said there had been recorded and would be used against him in his appeal. Jennifer had always publicly stood by her husband, but behind the scenes things were snowballing. His mental health had deteriorated to the point that in the previous few years, Nelson had been committed as an involuntary patient in a mental health facility. During his stay, Nelson stopped expressing his belief that everything and everybody was part of the undercover sting operation. He remained at that facility for two years, before being returned to prison in September of 2010. But after that, the conspiracy theories returned. And this time, Nelson alleged that his family, council and the courts were all part of an elaborate undercover sting. undercover sting, and he believed they not only wanted to ensure his conviction for Karen and Krista's death, but they also wanted to lay charges of sexual assault on him, which had never been

mentioned by anyone. When this started ramping up, Jennifer asked the Newfoundland and Labrador Court of Appeal to name her Guardian Ad Litem, which is an advocate with legal authority to act on behalf of a person who is unable to make sound decisions on their own. Her request was quite a rare one, and usually used in cases involving children, or in cases where somebody has a medical condition like Alzheimer's disease. In her application, her lawyer said that Jennifer's position is that Nelson suffers from a disability and her filing to be his legal guardian was a last-ditch effort to try and help Nelson get through his appeal, but the request was denied. The following year, in September of 2012, Nelson's appeal was finally heard.

His lawyers argued that the Mr Big confessions were inadmissible because of the tactics the RCMP used to coerce him and also that Nelson should have been allowed to testify in private. Nelson's legal team wanted his conviction to either be stayed or said the Crown needed to come up with evidence other than those confessions. Newfoundland and Labrador's Court of Appeal, which is the province's highest court, agreed, finding that Nelson should have been provided the accommodation to testify with the public excluded from the courtroom. The judges ruled that spectators outside the courtroom could have still viewed audio and video transmission without them having to actually be in the room with Nelson. And when it came to the Mr. Big confessions, two out of the three judge panel ruled that the videotape confessions had been obtained by improper coercion and inducements in breach of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The third judge didn't agree, so it wasn't a unanimous decision, but the judge was outnumbered.

As for the initial confession that Nelson gave that wasn't recorded because he hadn't been prompted, it was just the police notes that had been entered as evidence, and while Nelson denied that the conversation ever happened, the panel of judges concluded that this confession was admissible. The Newfoundland and Labrador Court of Appeal overturned Nelson's conviction and ordered a new trial. A month later, the provincial crown applied to the Supreme Court, asking them to review the appeal court ruling ordering the new trial for Nelson. The crown wanted it thrown out and Nelson's murder conviction upheld. The Supreme Court agreed to hear the appeal.

court agreed to hear the appeal. During this time, Nelson's prison stay was not a peaceful one. He was called to provincial court where it was alleged that he had assaulted and threatened prison guards and had destroyed property in two separate incidents. The court proceedings for these charges were put on hold until the Supreme Court hearing and decision on whether Nelson would be getting a new trial on the murder charges. winter and you can get anything you need delivered with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get snowballs on uber eats but meatballs mozzarella balls and arancini balls yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

In July of 2014, the case was heard by the Supreme Court, Canada's highest court, who would need to make a ruling on whether confessions elicited through Mr Big Sting operations would continue to be admissible in court. In 2008, the RCMP claimed that at least 350 convictions had come from confessions given during Mr Big Stings. And when it came to a percentage of the total, 75% of Mr Big's schemes resulted in a conviction or the exclusion of the suspect. The other 25% remained unsolved. While Mr Big Stings can prove successful when it comes to getting a confession, the question around the truthfulness of said confessions, when under false pressure, remains.

False confessions can cause miscarriages of justice, can condemn people who are innocent, and result in failures to convict those who are truly guilty. It undermines the public's trust. Nelson's lawyers argued that without those two recorded confessions, there was no evidence that there had even been a crime. And Nelson's personal circumstances made him especially vulnerable to a Mr Big Sting, because he had only reached a grade 5 education,

was dealing with health issues and was living in poverty. The conduct of police in the Mr Big Sting was described as an abuse of process which is where the police overcome the will of the suspect and coerce a confession out of them. While the RCMP had planned the undercover operation to last for 90 days with a budget of $174,000 to be spent on resources, scenarios and staging, it needed to be extended and in the end the operation cost more than $413,000, operation cost more than $413,000, more than double the original budget. Nelson's lawyers argued that his confessions had been rife with inconsistencies, like the fact that during the recreation, Nelson demonstrated using his knee to nudge Karen and Krista into the water, after having said verbally that he had used his shoulder. Also, Nelson later

referred to the children as having fallen off the wharf, but he was corrected by an undercover RCMP officer to say that he meant the children had been struck and that's why they fell off. All of these points were to demonstrate that Nelson couldn't ever be relied upon to tell the truth during his confessions because there were just so many inconsistencies. It was also pointed out that the big boss had asked Nelson why he hadn't taken a polygraph. Rather than state the obvious answer for a guilty person, which would be that he had not taken it because he was guilty, he said something different. He said that he had watched a TV show where people, quote, went to jail for polygraphs and it turned out that polygraphs had been wrong. This answer puzzled the undercover RCMP officers, but they were interrupted before they could seek

clarification. When it came to Nelson's reasoning though, he wasn't off the mark. Polygraph machines are used by law enforcement as it's believed they can reveal or prove deceit. Propaganda has told us that they are reliable and if a suspect refuses to take one, that's a strong indicator of guilt. But scientifically, it's not true. All polygraph machines do is indicate a change in stress levels, with the polygraph machine operator making a completely subjective decision on whether to interpret these changes in stress levels as lies or deceit. And obviously, when a person hooked up to a polygraph machine experiences elevated stress levels,

it doesn't necessarily mean they're lying, nor does it have anything to do with their actual innocence or guilt of the crime. It could just mean they're stressed about taking the polygraph. It could just mean they're stressed about taking the polygraph. The Supreme Court ruling didn't go easy on the Mr Big tactic, describing the way the tactic was used in Nelson Hart's case as akin to entrapment. The decision was written by Justice Michael Moldaver, who described Mr Big Operations as running the risk of becoming abusive, because undercover officers provide incentives like cash rewards and cultivate an aura of

violence to show what might happen if a betrayal happens. The RCMP employed extensive deceit on Nelson, which was described as having a transformative effect on his life, lifting him out of poverty and giving him the illusion of close friendships, all of which gave him an overwhelming incentive to confess, whether it be truthfully or falsely. It was pointed out that, in fact, he protested his innocence to Mr. Big until it was apparent that only a confession would be accepted. The decision had notes on each of Nelson's three confessions. About the first one that wasn't recorded, the only confession that the Court of Appeal allowed to be admissible because

it came unprompted, the Supreme Court noted that it still had serious reliability concerns. The confession reportedly came during a conversation in which an undercover officer was bragging to Nelson about his willingness to engage in violence if it was for the good of the gang. And Nelson's way of matching this offer was to offer up a hint that his daughters were now dead and that's what he was willing to do for the gang. But there were no details given. It was all innuendo. And obviously, Nelson denied the conversation took place altogether.

The confession was not allowed as evidence. was not allowed as evidence. With the second and third confessions, the Supreme Court of Canada decision ruled that they were not worth the risk they pose and it would be unsafe to rest a conviction on those confessions. After all, Nelson had devoted his whole life for four months in trying to join and secure his position in the criminal gang. And the reason why he bragged about killing his three-year-old daughters was to gain their approval. The decision stated that it was easy to see how the jury could have come to view Nelson with disdain, just based on the callous things he said. But Nelson's story was inconsistent. It morphed depending on what was being asked of him and what pressure was applied. The decision specifically noted how Nelson told Mr. Big that he struck his daughters with his

shoulder, but when he went back with an undercover officer for the recreation, he used his knee. with an undercover officer for the recreation, he used his knee. The decision notes, quote, he had to use his knee because the undercover officer kneeling down was not tall enough for Nelson to shove with his shoulder. The same would undoubtedly have been true for his small children. What this is saying is that Nelson told Mr. Big he used his shoulder, but then when he was asked to demonstrate the action two days later, it became evident that logistically the shoulder story wasn't likely to have happened. saying he didn't do it several times and the details of the confession he finally gave are dubious and not corroborated by other evidence, then it would be risky for anything Nelson said during the undercover operation to be taken as the truth. All of Nelson's confessions were thrown out by the Supreme Court. The decision stated, Another part of the decision described it as, The police employed the power of the state to create an elaborate invented reality designed to exploit a vulnerable person, introduce him to criminality,

and force him to incriminate himself. And it was noted that Nelson had become emotionally dependent on the gang, as evidenced by his proclamations of love and calling them brothers. And this emotional dependence was something that the RCMP fostered and then exploited, along with his other vulnerabilities, to ensure that he had no realistic option but to give Mr Big the confession he demanded. In addition, the decision stated that the RCMP witnessed Nelson suffering seizures both before the investigation began and during the sting operation itself. Yet, the RCMP continued to send him on driving assignments for the criminal gang, potentially putting the public

at risk. Quote, thought must be given to the kind of police tactics we as a society are prepared to condone in pursuit of the truth. The Supreme Court of Canada's landmark ruling was that confessions elicited through Mr Big Sting style operations are fraught with risks, open to abuse and must be presumed inadmissible in court. The court stopped short of banning the controversial Sting tactic altogether but said that Mr Big operations pose serious risks on three different fronts. First is the danger of getting a false confession. The Mr Big technique comes with a price and unreliable confessions provide compelling evidence of guilt and a straightforward path to convictions. But it was pointed out that

in other contexts, these stings have been responsible for wrongful convictions which are a blight on our justice system, something that the court must take reasonable steps to prevent before they occur. The second risk of Mr Big operations is the prejudicial nature of that kind of evidence. For example, when a jury sees that the defendant is willing to join a criminal organisation and willing to participate in fake crimes, it's not too much of a stretch to also find that they were guilty of the major crime they were charged with. And the third risk is the potential for police misconduct. The Stings run the risk of becoming abusive,

and misconduct like this might get a confession of sorts, but it also threatens the integrity of the justice system and the fairness of trials. The Supreme Court further stressed that trial judges need to scrutinize confessions for abusive process, which is where the police coerce a confession. This would no longer be tolerated. And other things considered abusive process include intimidation and veiled threats of violence, which Nelson experienced, as well as overwhelming inducements or incentives offered, like that $25,000 deal offered to Nelson that was dependent on him proving his trustworthiness to Mr. Big, and the way he was asked to prove it was by way of a confession.

The decision stated that going forward, in cases where an undercover operation is utilized, trial judges would need to consider the extent of both the incentives offered and the threats, as well as the mental health and sophistication of the suspect. And when it came to Mr Big Confessions now being presumed inadmissible in court, the Supreme Court didn't ban them outright, but stressed they must be subject to further qualifications. The onus is on the Crown to prove that the evidence, including the confession, passes the test. They would need to assess whether any other evidence

was uncovered during the Mr Big Sting outside of the confession, and when it came to what was said in the confession, every level of detail must be examined to assess whether it was consistent with other information known to investigators and unknown to the public, and if there are mundane details included that only the person who committed the crime would know. For example, whether a shoulder or a knee was used. These are all markers of reliability. And when it came to Nelson Hart, none of these things passed the test. With all three of Nelson's confessions thrown out as evidence, the ball was in the Crown's court to decide if they would be going to trial for a second time. Jamie Merrigan, one of his lawyers, would tell the Chronicle Herald that

they believed Nelson would go free because without the confession, the Crown just didn't have enough evidence for a conviction. Quote, I don't think there's anything close to enough. I think that a grieving father is going to be released from prison. to be released from prison. After the hearing, Nelson's lawyers had more to say about the RCMP's tactics, particularly the part where they reported Nelson for driving with epilepsy, saying that it could put the public in danger. That's when he had his license revoked. But two years later, he had his license back when the RCMP offered him the job as the courier for their fake trucking company, which was all good and well. But when they realized that his seizures had returned during this period, they took no such action to protect the public and continued to incentivize Nelson to keep driving. protect the public and continue to incentivize Nelson to keep driving. Quote, in the RCMP's own estimation that's dangerous but because they are in their noble pursuit of a confession so they

could lay a murder charge they turned a blind eye to that which they weren't willing to do before. It was noted that if a legitimate courier business permitted one of its employees to drive when they were known to have active epilepsy, they could be liable for multiple charges for endangering public safety. Nelson's lawyers told the media that the RCMP did have other options. They could have continued the operation, but with Nelson Hart in a different role that didn't require putting a potentially dangerous driver on public highways. Quote, They have an obligation to act in ways the rest of us can't in pursuit of that duty. They abdicated that duty and acted against it.

In the wake of the Supreme Court throwing out all three of Nelson's confessions and placing restrictions on how Mr Big confessions would be handled moving forward, the RCMP responded with their own written statement. They noted the Supreme Court didn't expressly forbid the technique and were going to take the time to review their policies and The retired RCMP officer who played the role of Mr Big in that operation told CBC News that he felt horrible about the decision because investigators have now lost, quote, about the decision because investigators have now lost, quote, another very strong police tool. With his identity protected under publication ban, the officer told CBC News that Nelson's conviction was one of hundreds that relied upon Mr Big confessions and this could lead to appeals

and a host of other cases and it might end up too risky to use. The officer said that the result could lead to people who committed crimes not being convicted. Former RCMP superintendent Gary Clement spoke to Global News, saying he understood why the court was urging action, but he warned about the dangers of getting rid of the technique. Quote, I think this is a tool that is a must. A lot of when we use this type of operation, it's dealing in cold cases, and society has this expectation that law enforcement never forgets about cold cases. And often, police see a Mr. Big scenario as the only way to solve a cold case. Just three days after the Supreme Court ruled that Nelson's confession was not admissible in court if he were to be tried again, the Crown confirmed it had withdrawn Nelson's murder charges.

Just as his lawyers had said, there was now insufficient evidence to meet the standard for prosecution. This meant that Nelson would not be facing another trial. After it was announced, Judge David Peddle said, this brings the matter to a close. Nelson was not in court to hear that he was going to be made a free man. As one of his lawyers, Robbie Ash, said, Mr Hart is obviously very pleased with the outcome of this decision, but this is going to be a difficult time for him as well, a time of transition and a time of healing for him. They were also Mr Hart's daughters. He revealed that Nelson had become even more reclusive while in prison and had virtually no ties with anybody in the outside world.

After nine years behind bars, 45-year-old Nelson Hart left prison an even more isolated man than when he entered. He had spent long periods in solitary confinement and long periods in a mental health facility. Jennifer, the mother of Krista and Karen, was in the courtroom. She showed no emotion and quietly left without speaking to the reporters. See, while Jennifer had stood by her husband throughout the trial and appeal, she would say that she had since come to fear him, and the couple had divorced in 2012, two years before that Supreme Court ruling. In what was described as a rare interview, Jennifer told Jane Tabor of the Globe and Mail in 2014, just after the ruling,

that she blames herself for the girls' deaths. Quote, If I had the time back, they would never have gone with him. Why didn't I keep them home? But then, a rhetorical question. Who other can you trust with your kids than their own father? question. Who other can you trust with your kids than their own father? But even as Jennifer supported Nelson after Karen and Krista died, she couldn't ignore those growing feelings about his behavior. In the days after the tragedy, Nelson had thrown out all of Karen and Krista's belongings, including their pictures. RCMP investigators working the case managed to retrieve them and return them all to Jennifer. All those years, she had kept their belongings in her closet. She said she was always a little suspicious about what happened that day

at the park and did ask Nelson if he was responsible. No, I never done away with the girls, is what he would reply in his thick Newfoundland accent. But Jennifer said he told her he had some stuff in the back of his mind that he was going to carry to his grave. As you'll recall, after the tragedy, the community had come together to raise money for the couple, and a decent amount had been sent to them via donations in cards. But Jennifer would later state that it dwindled away quickly, as Nelson had spent all of the money on himself. She described how her life changed again about three years after Karen and Krista died when all of a sudden

Nelson made some new friends. Jennifer thought it was all pretty strange but Nelson assured her that good things were happening. After he was arrested Jennifer said she lost it and started shaking but she chose to stick by him even through her own doubts. She said his mother Pearl tried throughout the years to convince her that Nelson didn't commit the crime, and she stayed loyal to him for six years, but in 2011, she happened to meet another man who showed her that the way Nelson treated her was not normal. As you'll remember, Nelson was jealous and violent and asked Jennifer to quit her waitress job, leaving them in poverty because he wanted her at home. He stalked her when she went shopping and there was also that incident

where he threatened Jennifer he might stab himself with a knife and she would be charged with murder. he might stab himself with a knife and she would be charged with murder. This man that Jennifer met in 2011 was a taxi driver named Steve Parsons and he showed her how she should be treated in a loving relationship. Tragically though, one night on the way to her place for dinner, Steve was killed in a car crash, with the other driver eventually charged with dangerous driving causing death. After Jennifer recovered, she knew what her next course of action should be, divorce, which is what she did in 2012. By 2014, when Nelson was released from prison a free man, Jennifer was in a long-term relationship with a fellow Newfoundlander that she met through her sister, and they were planning to get married.

But at the time, she said she was worried that Nelson was going to come back to Gander to live. She said she was worried that Nelson was going to come back to Gander to live. She said she wouldn't feel comfortable working anywhere until he was back behind bars. Quote, Why should he be walking the streets, happy-go-lucky, getting away with the girl's death, while I am suffering every day of my life without my precious angels? There is no justice for me or my girls. It's like me and the girls are just washed under the rug. In 2015, Jennifer released a book she had co-written with journalist Colleen

Lewis, who covered the case in Newfoundland as it happened. The book, called Mr. Big, The Investigation into the Deaths of Karen and Krista Hart, tells the story from Jennifer's perspective and includes details about her life with Nelson Hart, testimony from the undercover officers, as well as Jennifer's own observations during the four months of Nelson's new friends. Jennifer had always struck local journalists as being sympathetic and supportive of her ex-husband, but behind the scenes she was angry, and through the book she wanted people to know a side of the story that she hadn't told before. After the Supreme Court decision and Nelson was released from prison, it was time to deal with those charges that he had accrued in prison in 2013, the year before. During one of those incidents, Nelson became agitated after the guards wanted proof that he had taken his medication, which was protocol to make sure inmates weren't hoarding prescription drugs.

Nelson became agitated when he was asked to show the inside of his mouth. He threw paper plates and cutlery and threatened to stab one of the correctional officers. During another incident, Nelson's lunch was spilled on the floor of his cell. He became agitated and threatened guards and he was allowed out of his cell so they could clean up the mess. Video shows a shirtless Nelson walk up to the kitchenette, grab a kettle and swing it around by its cord. He smashed it into a television and uttered threats before getting swarmed by about seven correctional officers and put into segregation. He was charged with uttering threats and assaulting a peace officer for one incident and three charges of uttering threats plus one charge of destruction of property for the other.

He pleaded not guilty to the charges and claimed the correctional officers were out to get him. An investigation cleared the guards of any wrongdoing because they were just following protocol. His defense lawyer, Jeff Brace, agreed but told a judge before sentencing that while no one was trying to make excuses for Nelson's outbursts in jail, it was out of character and he had reached breaking point because of the stress of waiting for his appeal. He felt like he was being treated like a dog by prison officials. The Crown stayed a second charge of assaulting a peace officer, but for the other charges, Nelson was found guilty and ordered to serve 30 days of house arrest and one year of probation. His lawyer said that he might be free, but he's a social outcast who struggled to find housing and had been attacked at least three times, once on a city bus.

In fact, the issue with him being on house arrest was that he had no house in which to serve the 30 days. He had been shuffled from shelter to shelter, still experiencing food and housing insecurity. That was 2015. It's not publicly known what Nelson Hart is doing today. known what Nelson Hart is doing today. What started out as a pleasant Sunday outing among a father and his daughters tragically transformed into one of the most baffling and high-profile cases that Newfoundland and Labrador has ever seen, a case that ended up making history in the Supreme Court. But the murder trial and subsequent acquittal of Nelson Hart left a number of questions, questions that still haunt the town of Gander today,

almost 20 years later. Was Nelson Hart a ruthless and remorseless child killer, or did he make the entire confession up, either to impress a phony crime boss, to continue living his new flash lifestyle of wealth and comfort, or simply because he was broke, insecure and lonely, captivated by the essence of brotherhood? The only person who truly knows is Nelson Hart. is Nelson Hart. While this case was a good demonstration of why Mr. Big techniques are controversial and why many people think they should be outlawed in Canada as they are in the US, there are cases where it is undeniable that had a Mr. Big sting not been used, the obvious perpetrator would still be at large and the public potentially at risk.

One is a story that I'll be telling later this year about another case that went to appeal after the Nelson Hart Supreme Court ruling and had a completely different outcome. The confession was deemed admissible because it had been scrutinized and put to the test. In the meantime, the Case File True Crime podcast did an excellent episode on a case very close to my heart from Australia, where the Mr. Big technique is also legal. It's the case of Daniel Morecambe, a 13-year-old boy who vanished from a bus stop in 2003 on the Sunshine Coast of Queensland, the general region where I lived at the time. The case ended up being one of the most extensive investigations in Australian history, and it was because of a Mr Big operation that the suspect confessed eight years later,

and showed police where the remains were, harking back to that point the Supreme Court made where the confession needs to be accompanied by some other evidence, like something only the perpetrator would know. To listen to the story of Daniel Morecambe, check out Case File, Episode 54. There's a link in the show notes. In my opinion, the Daniel Morecambe case illustrates a situation where the Mr Big Sting is used in a more appropriate way, with a more appropriate suspect, not a person who was substantially undereducated, socially isolated and living in poverty, like Nelson Hart was. Thanks for listening and special thanks to Emily G. Thompson from Morbidology and Eileen McFarlane from CrimeLapse for writing and research in this case. Thanks also to Asia Romano, Vox.com's web culture reporter, who provided me content advice around the use of polygraphs. For the full list of resources and anything else you want to know about the podcast, including how to access ad-free episodes, visit canadiantruecrime.ca.

Well, that's it for this series. Thank you so much for your kind ratings, reviews, messages, that's it for this series. Thank you so much for your kind ratings, reviews, messages and support as always. Thanks also to the host of True for voicing the disclaimer and We Talk of Dreams who composed the theme song. I'll be back soon with a new Canadian true crime story. See you then. Thank you.