Canadian True Crime - Kelly Favro's Story—Part 1

Episode Date: March 6, 2023

Content warning: This series includes graphic descriptions of sexual violence. If you or anyone you know is experiencing sexual violence and abuse, help is available. Please see resources below.V...ictoria, British Columbia[Part 1 of 2] In this two-part series, we explore Kelly Favro's harrowing journey from surviving a two-hour sexual assault to becoming the first person in British Columbia to have a publication ban removed from her name - by herself.Publication bans are routinely ordered to protect the privacy of vulnerable participants in the criminal justice system. But in the case of sexual assault complainants, what if they didn’t actually consent to the publication ban? What if they don’t want it?What happens when publication bans backfire?Along the way, Kelly met many other sexual assault survivors and learned that she was not alone. You’ll also hear the stories of Jade Neilson and Samantha Geiger, two survivors who discovered publication bans had been put on their names without their consent, and how it impacted them in completely separate but negative ways.It all culminated in a trip to Parliament Hill in Ottawa to fight for changes.--------------------------------Special thanks to Kelly Favro.Please help sexual assault survivors Sign the petition now to give victim-complainants more agency and choice when it comes to publication bans on their names.Eligibility: Citizens and residents of Canada are eligible to sign the petitionDeadline: 9am EST on March 10th, 2023Follow on twitter: @AmendPubBanLaws More information:See the page for this episode at www.canadiantruecrime.ca/episodesResources for Sexual Violence and Abuse:REES Community - Canada Sexual Assault Centres by province or postal codeEnding Violence Canada - Sexual Assault Centres, Crisis Lines and Support ServicesListen ad-free and early:CTC premium feeds are available on Amazon Music - included with Prime, Apple Podcasts, Patreon and Supercast. Credits:Writing, research, sound design: Kristi LeeAudio editing and production: We Talk of DreamsProduction assistance: Jesse HawkeScript consulting: Carol WeinbergTheme songs by We Talk of DreamsDisclaimer voiced by Erik KrosbyFor the full list of resources, information sources, and credits:See the page for this episode at www.canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. funded mainly through advertising. You can listen to Canadian True Crime ad-free and early on Amazon Music included with Prime, Apple Podcasts, Patreon, and Supercast. The podcast often has disturbing content and coarse language. It's not for everyone. Please take care when listening. This is part one of a two-part series. An additional content warning. This series includes graphic details of sexual assault that might be difficult to listen to. If you or anyone you know is experiencing sexual violence and abuse, help is available. Please see the show notes for resources.
Starting point is 00:01:07 In 2019, a man from the Kitchener-Waterloo area of Ontario was convicted of violent sexual assault. The survivor was his ex-wife. They were embroiled in bitter divorce proceedings at the time and the attack happened as their two children were sleeping nearby. The trial judge pointed out the man's shocking sense of entitlement and lack of respect for the victim and sentenced him to a year in jail. After sentencing, the survivor, his ex-wife, requested a transcript of the judge's reasons for conviction, which hadn't been made public. When she received it, she forwarded it on to a small group of family members and friends to read.
Starting point is 00:01:50 The following month, she was shocked to learn she'd been charged with violating a publication ban on her own name. She had no idea that one was even in place, let alone that there were serious consequences for breaching it. Publication bans are a fairly unique feature of the Canadian criminal justice system. They prevent vulnerable people from suffering negative consequences as a result of being publicly identified in relation to a criminal case. People like minors, witnesses who are afraid to testify, and sexual assault complainants. Because sexual assaults are widely underreported, the hope is that the shield of a publication ban
Starting point is 00:02:37 might encourage more survivors to come forward. As this particular survivor looked into the situation, her initial shock snowballed as she learned that the Crown Prosecutor had requested the publication ban at her ex-husband's first court appearance, which she wasn't required to attend. She also learned that the intention behind the ban was to protect her identity as the survivor, which she wasn't consulted about. When it came to the violation, she only forwarded the court document to people who obviously already knew who she was and who she was married to. So how could that be a breach? As it turned out, the document she forwarded inadvertently
Starting point is 00:03:29 ended up in her ex-husband's inbox, and he complained that his ex-wife, the mother of his children, had violated the publication ban. It was only in her name, but because it prevents open communication about the offence and the harm experienced by the complainant, it effectively gives the impression that abusers are protected as well. to further victimise the woman he'd been convicted of sexually assaulting. And for inexplicable reasons, the Crown thought it appropriate to press charges against her. The woman's lawyer would tell CBC News that her client had just been through a violent and traumatic divorce, and of course a sexual assault trial. So when faced with these new charges and the possibility of having to go to trial again, this time as the accused, she felt she had no choice but to plead guilty. She was simply exhausted. the first time that a sexual assault survivor had been convicted for violating a publication ban on her own identity. When she was fined $2,000 and ordered to pay an additional victim surcharge fine of $600, the case received national attention and outrage, and a few months later, and outrage, and a few months later, the conviction was overturned on appeal.
Starting point is 00:05:15 We often think of publication bans as a protection, but what if the complainant or survivor didn't consent to that protection? What if they don't want it? What happens when publication bans backfire? This is the story of Callie Favreau. The only reason we can tell her story or even say her name is because of her tenacity in overcoming a seemingly impossible situation and her determination to pave an easier path for others who might come after her. It all started in mid-July of 2015, when 32-year-old Callie found herself chatting up a cute guy on a pub crawl. His name was Ken, and after an easy conversation, he asked Callie for her number. She figured, why not? He seemed decent and kind, and they seemed to have a lot in common. A few days later, she received a text message from him with an invitation. They both lived in Victoria, a small city located on the southern end of Vancouver Island, also the capital city of British Columbia. And each summer, there was a music festival held there called Rock the Shores. Ken told Kelly he had an extra VIP ticket for her if she wanted to go with him.
Starting point is 00:07:06 Kelly said yes immediately, noting that Jane's addiction were playing. They had a brilliant time. As Kelly put it, they rocked the hell out, and before they parted, Ken made sure they had another date on the calendar. they had another date on the calendar. He invited Kelly to his place for dinner and extended the invitation to her little Maltese Shih Tzu, George. Kelly described it as a fabulous feast, followed by some hot bedroom action. Things moved very quickly after that, and Kelly found herself at Ken's place nearly every night that week. It seemed that the relationship was getting serious quickly and Kelly was soon introduced to Ken's parents. Things seemed really comfortable.
Starting point is 00:07:56 The weekend after that, Kelly told Ken she had other plans with her friends at a mini music festival called the Phillips Backyard Weekender. It was supposed to be a girls weekend, but Ken bought tickets for himself and showed up anyway. Kelly was thrilled to see him and would describe having an amazing time with him that weekend, drinking, partying, listening to hip-hop and of course having more sex. But her best friend Hayley was not so thrilled. It was her second time meeting Ken and she had yet to see him when he didn't appear intoxicated. Hayley saw some red flags but she could also see that Kelly was smitten. After the weekend music festival, Ken went back to Kelly's place,
Starting point is 00:08:47 where he suddenly told her he had a confession to make. The night they met at the pub crawl, he'd actually been in a relationship with another woman, and he technically still was. The reason he was telling Kelly was that he'd made a decision to break it off with the other woman because he saw a future with Kelly. She was a bit taken aback and wished he'd been more honest about his relationship status. But Ken was pretty skilled at saying the right things. News like this would typically sour a new relationship, but Ken had successfully flipped it around to portray it as a positive turning point for them. So, when Ken contacted Kelly to tell her he'd broken it off as planned with the other woman, she was relieved. She'd been feeling some anxious thoughts around the situation and she still had her doubts that he was telling the truth but she shook it off. About a week after this, Ken told Kelly that he had a daughter who lived with
Starting point is 00:09:53 her mother elsewhere in British Columbia. This fact didn't particularly bother her but Kelly would say she felt a strange feeling that she might be getting into something. Again, she set that feeling aside. The relationship continued to heat up. They would stay at each other's houses four or five nights a week, and while they both enjoyed alcohol, Kelly often watched Ken drink until he appeared to be blackout drunk. When Hayley and her other friends pointed out red flags, Kelly continued to be dismissive.
Starting point is 00:10:39 Ken started to buy gifts for her, which made her nervous because she'd never had a guy just buy her stuff for no reason. He told her he wanted to take her out for a nice dinner and took her shopping for a new dress, preferably pink, with heels to match. It wasn't the kind of outfit Kelly usually wore, but she was excited about dressing up for a special occasion. But soon, she learned that the gifts came with expectations. Ken started commenting on her normal outfits, telling her that he wouldn't be seen in public with her dressed like that. Kelly had a casual, edgy fashion style. Trendy ripped jeans, black t-shirts, tank tops and leggings. And that's how she was always dressed, including the night she met Ken. But he said he wanted her to be dolled up when they went out, with dresses, heels and makeup. And Kelly had started to notice that he had jealous tendencies.
Starting point is 00:11:35 One day he was at her house and found the toilet seat up. She'd been cleaning, but he assumed she had another man in the house and went on the offensive. but he assumed she had another man in the house and went on the offensive. Within a week or two, Kelly described their bedroom adventures as going from hot and adventurous to very rough. It all started when Ken asked if he could tie Kelly up. She didn't think bondage would be her thing, but they were having a great time together, so what the hell, she would give it a try. She actually didn't mind a bit of rough sex, as long as the appropriate safeguards were in place. One way BDSM-type activities like bondage can be distinguished from abuse is through a mutual consent agreement, where parties establish boundaries in advance, including the use of safe words. There is still ongoing communication and checking in during the
Starting point is 00:12:33 encounter, but at least both or all parties can go into it with confidence that they will be safe. Callie was nervous, but she knew enough to request the use of a safe word and looked around the apartment for inspiration. Drapes. They both agreed that if any of them said drapes, that would mean on no uncertain terms that one party is uncomfortable and the activity must immediately stop, no questions asked. The encounter started and Callie soon realized that being tied up definitely wasn't her thing, but she consented to it continuing this one time. But she also realized something else. Their bedroom activities up until this point were for mutual benefit and mutual enjoyment, but Ken had started pushing things to a whole
Starting point is 00:13:27 other level, with a clear shift in focus towards himself and what he wanted. And then, Kelly says he started to wear her down and insult her. He told her that he was attracted to a certain type of woman and it wasn't her. He told her she needed better clothes. Kelly had recently worked hard to leverage her work experience into a new role in commercial securities, but Ken insulted her intelligence, telling her she had no right to operate in a man's world. He had such a way with words that she internalized everything he told her. The more he put her down, the more she put herself down. And Kelly's friends noticed that she was becoming more and more withdrawn and not acting like herself. But every time they tried to speak
Starting point is 00:14:20 with her about it, she reassured them that everything was okay. After Ken and Callie had been dating for about four weeks, Callie started feeling an intense pain in her groin area. It got progressively worse and by day three, she was admitted to hospital with pain so unbearable that she couldn't sit or walk properly. The doctor advised her that she had contracted chlamydia, a common sexually transmitted infection that's easily curable with antibiotics. The problem is that most people don't get any symptoms, so they don't realize they have it, and if it goes untreated, it can cause serious complications in women, including pelvic inflammatory disease and infertility. Kelly was one of the lucky ones who did get symptoms. In her case, the bacteria had caused a blockage in one of her glands, and she would need a specific surgery to drain it. According to HealthLink BC,
Starting point is 00:15:28 the time between exposure to chlamydia and the start of symptoms can range from days to months, but if symptoms appear, it is usually one to three weeks after sexual contact with an infected person. And experts recommend that those who find out they're infected should notify everyone they've had sex with in the past two months. Callie would say she had typically been responsible with sexual health, including getting STD tests in between partners, and she wasn't seeing or having sex with anyone else but Ken during that time. They had started off using condoms, but there were a few times where they had unprotected sex. She texted
Starting point is 00:16:14 him straight away to let him know that she was in hospital for emergency surgery, but he didn't reply. After some time, she texted him again, and then twice more. Still, no reply. As she lay in hospital thinking about the situation, her growing upset turned to anger. The next morning, Kelly messaged Ken one more time to tell him their relationship was over and she didn't need this shit in her life. Ken called her straight away, saying his brother had taken off with his phone so he didn't get the text messages, and he didn't think to use email or a computer to message her instead. At this time, Callie told Ken that the reason for her surgery was that she had contracted chlamydia. If he had any concern for her, she didn't see any evidence of it. In fact, he went on the offensive, accusing her of sleeping around and calling her derogatory names.
Starting point is 00:17:18 Kelly stated again that the relationship was over and told him he could get his golf clubs out of her car after she was out of hospital. Ken never visited Kelly in hospital. He didn't offer to pick her up or take her home. It was her best friend Haley who did that. Once home, Kelly texted Ken again to reinforce the message that the relationship was over. And then she fell asleep on the couch. But the night was not over yet. Hi everyone. Today we're talking passion projects that turn into careers, a topic that obviously resonates quite a bit with me. In collaboration with the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAST Creative,
Starting point is 00:18:16 I want to introduce you to someone who took his passion for cannabis, turned it into a career, and is now an industry trailblazer. This is Nico Soziak. He's the chief financial officer of Canara Biotech, a prominent producer based in Montreal. Nico, I know that you've had a passion for cannabis for quite a few years, but you seem a lot younger than what I was expecting. I have to know how and when you got into the cannabis business. Yeah, absolutely. I look younger, but I'm aging by the day. But no, I'm 35 years old. I got into cannabis about five
Starting point is 00:18:52 years ago. I started with Canara. But you were a consumer before that. Yeah, I've been a consumer. I had friends in the legacy side of the business and watched what they did. I tried the different strains and genetics, watched how they grew, really found a passion for cannabis and the products. But my professional career is an accountant. So while I had a passion for cannabis, I was also a straight A student. Wow. Then Canada decided to legalize cannabis. And that was when I was like, okay, this is kind of my calling. I have to try to figure out how do I can get into the industry. And that was when I was like, okay, this is kind of my calling. I have to try to figure out how do I can get into the industry. And Canara had just became a public company. I joined them in
Starting point is 00:19:31 April 2019 and built the finance department here at Canara and worked with the founder. And at one point I was given the keys to that. And now I'm here today. Wow, that's such a cool story. So how do you feel about being called a trailblazer in the legal market now? It's an honor. I've looked up to many trailblazers in this industry today that come from the legacy side that went to legal. You know, I'm happy to be part of that. So actually, I wanted to ask you about the legacy market. How did you incorporate it into operations on the legal side? I don't pretend that the cannabis market just got created in 2017, right? For me, legacy means that everyone that's been working, all the businesses that have been in the industry pre-legalization.
Starting point is 00:20:16 I'm not going to reinvent the wheel in terms of thinking I know what consumers want. There's been an industry that's been built for many, many, many years. consumers want. There's been an industry that's been built for many, many, many years. So it's all the ideas and creations that were pre-legalization, figuring out how do we evolve that into the legal side with all the regulatory frameworks. What would you say is the best part of working in the legal market? Knowing that your product is clean, knowing what you're consuming, we're ensuring quality, we're ensuring the price. I think we're ahead of other industries. Okay, so final question. What gets you excited to go to work every day? This is my dream. This is my passion. I get excited. Work doesn't feel like work for me.
Starting point is 00:20:56 When you're creating things that you dream about, I give the idea to the team. The team is able to execute different innovations. That's what really gets me excited. Thanks for listening to this Trailblazers story, brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAST Creative. If you like the trail Nico Soziak is blazing, you will love what's happening in legal cannabis. Visit ocs.ca slash trailblazers to learn more. Later that evening, Ken showed up at Kelly's apartment, clearly intoxicated.
Starting point is 00:21:46 As she lay on the couch, vulnerable, recovering from surgery, he screamed at her, I'm not your boyfriend, I can do better than you. Eventually he calmed down and invited her to go to a bar with him. She told him she wasn't able to walk properly, let alone drink, but he kept pestering her to go out. When she said no again, the insult started up, and then he passed out on the couch. Ken ended up apologizing for his behavior and told Kelly he wanted to get it together and make things work with her. He had a way with words and was always able to convince Kelly that her concerns weren't necessary or valid. She agreed to give him another shot. A week or so after that, Kelly felt well enough to go to bars with Ken. They always had the best time together when they went out, but not this time. He'd been drinking all afternoon and started
Starting point is 00:22:41 begging Kelly for a threesome with another woman. Kelly wasn't into it at all, but that was a moot point. She reminded Ken that she was still recovering from surgery down there. She had stitches that were healing and she'd been told by the doctor that sex was out of the question for four to six weeks. If Ken cared about her recovery, he didn't show it, and continued to pester her, pointing out random women he wanted her to try and pick up, and then approaching them while gesturing to Kelly. Fed up, she told him she was leaving, and he walked out after her, calling her unattractive, miserable, a terrible cunt. calling her unattractive, miserable, a terrible cunt.
Starting point is 00:23:30 There had been quite a few red flags, but the first major incident came a week or two after that, when Kelly felt ready to try and have sex again. She experienced so much pain just from trying that she had to tell Ken to stop, which he did. Clearly, it was still too early after the surgery. Callie offered to give Ken oral sex instead, and it started off consensually, but she felt him grab her hair in the most painful way she'd ever felt and alleged that he forced her to deep throat him as she cried and fought back. At some point she was gagging and couldn't breathe, let alone speak, but eventually she
Starting point is 00:24:13 managed to push herself off and come up for air. At that point she was gasping as she told him to stop. Finally it seemed that he understood. Exhausted, she went to sleep. Looking back, Callie would wonder why she didn't just leave. But Ken managed to talk her around again, and two days later, she accepted an invitation to his place for dinner. Callie showed up to Ken's place with a six-pack of beer, and as he cooked dinner, she watched him down two of them. Then he started on his own drinks, slamming back what looked to be three triple vodkas in a short period of time. went on and they had dinner, Ken started speaking to Kelly in a disrespectful way, pushing her buttons and taunting her with pictures of the other woman he'd been in a relationship with when he met her. Kelly became fed up with it. While she did feel okay to drive home,
Starting point is 00:25:18 she knew that she'd had four beers and suspected she might be just over the line if she was caught. It wasn't worth the risk to drive home and she had to work in the morning anyway. She'd worked very hard to move into her new job and she didn't want to put her career in jeopardy. She told Ken she was going to bed and she would leave first thing in the morning. She said to herself that she would never be back. As Kelly tried to fall asleep in the bedroom, she heard Ken opening up more bottles in the kitchen. She heard ice cubes hitting the glass and then the clink of another drink and more ice cubes and then another. That sound would be something she would never forget. The next thing Kelly knew, Ken was on the bed beside her, naked, trying to wake her up.
Starting point is 00:26:14 When he got her attention, she glanced at her phone and saw it was around 4am. He grabbed her hand and asked her to touch his penis. She said no and moved her hand back. He then asked for oral sex and she said no, rolling over to face away from him. She felt him grab her hips and try to move her body into a different position to make it easier for him to initiate sex. Callie told him to fuck off. Not only was she done with the relationship, but his level of intoxication hit all of her senses at once,
Starting point is 00:26:56 and she reminded him that she hadn't fully recovered from the surgery. According to court documents, he got rougher, at first, playfully, and then more intensely, at one point grabbing at the elastic on her underwear. She told him no and tried to move away from him, but he laughed and told her, why are you being so squirmy? And then he said, I'm going to rape your ass, adding that it wasn't going to hurt because he had lubricant. He pulled at her underwear elastic again, commenting that if she wore nicer underwear, then maybe he'd be more into her. Then he yanked the elastic so hard that it ripped. At this point, Kelly realized that her safety was in jeopardy. point, Kelly realized that her safety was in jeopardy. What happened next is directly from the statement Kelly would give to the police, quote, I'm fighting as hard as I can. I get pinned
Starting point is 00:27:55 down and I can't move. He's pulling my hair and I'm screaming no and stop and I'm hitting him to get him away from me. At this moment moment I go into panic mode. He's black out drunk with super drunk strength and I don't think I can fight him. Kelly would say that the only reason she had the strength to keep fighting was the memory of how sore it was when they tried to have sex before she was ready. She didn't want to ruin her recovery from surgery, so as he was trying to penetrate her anally, she clenched her cheeks together, but he would then try to pry them apart. From the statement she would give, quote, and I got dizzy. I can hear him rattling with something. Before I know it, he's binding my legs and my hands in tight knots. I'm kicking, I'm screaming, I'm fighting as hard as I can.
Starting point is 00:28:53 He keeps saying he's going to rape me. He keeps telling me that it is going in my ass and there is nothing I can do about it. He keeps telling me that he has lube so it will be okay. He is It sounded like all this happened in a minute, but Kelly struggled and fought back with Ken for about two hours on and off. During periods when he seemed to get tired of the fight and just laid there, Kelly would feel him close to her and would at first lay perfectly still so as not to poke the bear. At one point, Ken seemed to be unconscious, and Kelly thought she might be able to get herself out of the binds by wriggling hard. But that woke him up and the attack started again. This happened several times. Kelly yelled no, stop, and their safe word, drapes, more times than she could count. Ken's bedroom window was open and she hoped that one of the neighbors might hear and come to her rescue,
Starting point is 00:30:12 but no one did. She learned afterwards that the apartment next to his was empty. Ken laid still again and Callie waited until she heard a snore. That was her cue that she could try again to get away. Because of his level of intoxication, he hadn't tied the binds very tightly and she was able to wriggle out of it. Kelly grabbed her dog George and his stuff and fled Ken's place as fast as she could. By that point, it was just before 6am. When she got to her car, Kelly sent a text message to her best friend Hayley, saying she'd be proud because it was now over with Ken.
Starting point is 00:31:00 According to transcripts, Hayley replied straight away saying that yes, she was proud and asking if her friend was okay. Kelly told her she'd been up with Ken since 4am. Quote, I told him to fuck off after he wouldn't take Noah's an answer for the 26th time. We got into a bit of a fight. I hit him pretty hard. He tried pinning me down. I fought him off.
Starting point is 00:31:26 I'm okay. George and I bailed ASAP. He has my damn lasagna tray. I'm trying to get that back tonight. I just want my damn tray back. It was just a dish, but it had sentimental value to Kelly because her mother had given it to her. Ever the supportive friend, Hayley replied, I will buy you a new tray. I will buy you the best damn lasagna tray. We can even go out together and you can choose the lasagna tray. Callie went home, threw out the ripped underwear because they were ruined, and then had a shower. She had no choice but to go into work because she was still on probation at her new job in commercial securities. She sent a longer email to Haley after she arrived at work. She couldn't believe that for
Starting point is 00:32:20 all her protests about recovering from surgery, Ken didn't appear to care at all. In fact, his solution was to try and rape her anally instead. Hayley urged her to report it to the police, but Kelly wasn't so sure if there was anything to report, in the eyes of the law anyway. Ken threatened to rape her, tried to rape her, even through her clear cries of protest, but he wasn't able to penetrate her because she'd been fighting back so hard. Technically, she escaped before anything bad happened.
Starting point is 00:33:00 So would that still count as sexual assault? She just didn't know. So would that still count as sexual assault? She just didn't know. Callie finished her day's work, but she felt like a shell of a person, trapped within her own head. A co-worker noticed something was off with her and asked if she was okay. She said she had a headache. That night, she put on music and curled up on the couch and cried. She would testify that she had marks on her ankles from the ropes. Her wrists were red and she had bruising on the back of her leg near her buttocks,
Starting point is 00:33:33 thanks to Ken's attempts to pry her cheeks apart. She remembered asking herself over and over what happened. How did she let things go so wrong? Like many sexual assault survivors, Kelly blamed herself for what happened. Two days after the attack, Kelly messaged Ken and asked for her lasagna dish back. She wanted to tie up all the loose ends as quickly as possible. as quickly as possible. Ken did not reply to her message. Kelly messaged him again the next day and this time he replied, but only to say he was busy with his parents. She had considered cancelling plans with her friends that weekend, but she decided not to and was surprised when she found herself having a decent time with them. Maybe it was possible to move on and put the whole thing behind her. She decided that's exactly what she was going
Starting point is 00:34:32 to do. She deleted Ken's number from her phone. She could see that she wasn't going to get anywhere with him. But Kelly couldn't block her thoughts out forever and as soon as she was alone, she found herself constantly evaluating what happened to her and whether it counted as a sexual assault. The more she thought about it, she realised that even if there was no penetration, she shouldn't have had to fight off a man trying to rape her for two hours. She shouldn't have to wait until he passed out to escape. A week after the attack, Callie got a text message from Ken. She didn't know who it was at first since she'd deleted his number. According to the transcripts of the text messages, Ken asked her if she wanted her lasagna dish back or not. She decided it was time to confront him. The following messages I wouldn't hurt because you found lube. You tied me up,
Starting point is 00:35:45 I was kicking and screaming at you to stop. No, keep the fucking thing, because if I ever see you again, the cops will be taking me away in handcuffs. You have any fucking idea how close I was to going to the cops about you? You were unbelievably violent with me that night. And because of your pathetic drinking I bet you don't remember any goddamn thing about that fucking night. Nope, of your pathetic drinking I bet you don't remember any goddamn thing about that fucking night. Nope, I don't. Sorry. Ken promised to stop watching so much BDSM porn. Kelly asked him if he was for real and told him that he physically hurt her when he tried to rape her. I did not. We had plenty of kinky sex before. This conversation is over. Get help. You
Starting point is 00:36:28 need it. You'll be hearing from the police this week. I said no and stop repeatedly. You didn't stop. That's why we have a safe word and you instigated everything. Funny. I also said it and you kept going. You wouldn't give up. You don't remember a fucking thing from that night. I instigated fuck all. You came to me at 4am and woke me up. I told you no. I told you to stop. I said drapes. You backed off for two minutes and you got the ropes out. You repeatedly threatened to rape my ass. You pinned me down. You were laughing throughout the entire thing at me being so squirmy and for kicking out of the binds. I did not instigate anything from a sound sleep. Yeah, we were playing, nothing we hadn't done before. I thought you might like your dish back. Now I regret texting you. Kelly told Ken that what happened the morning of September the 1st was very different from
Starting point is 00:37:21 anything they'd done before. He insisted it wasn't. Kelly argued back. She was okay with him tying her up once, she said, but this time she was not okay with it and screamed to high hell about it. That's what made it different. Ken did not reply. Over the next hour, Kelly got angrier and angrier as she thought about the conversation. Not only did she have to fight Ken off as he tried to rape her for the best part of two hours, but now he was gaslighting her, refusing to acknowledge what he'd done and the injuries it had caused. and the injuries it had caused. She mustered the courage to call the non-emergency line of the Victoria Police Department to ask what her options were. She told them her story and gave them Ken's full name, Kenneth Charles Erickson. She said she regretted that she had not taken pictures of the
Starting point is 00:38:21 bruises on her arms and legs, but they told her that this didn't matter. It didn't matter that her bruises were no longer visible, and it also didn't matter that a week had passed since the assault. And she also didn't need to go to the station because they were going to dispatch officers to her home. According to the transcripts, about 90 minutes after the last text message, Ken replied to say sorry that she feels that way and that the real reason he texted her was to ask her if she was interested in having a threesome with him and his golfing buddy. Kelly didn't reply.
Starting point is 00:39:00 Four minutes later, he texted her again, and she replied, The police are involved now. Please do not contact me. Four minutes later, he texted her again, and she replied, A week after the sexual assault, Kelly gave several statements to police. In one of the transcripts of Kelly's statements, she's described as crying as she reflects on the attack and the fact that she did fight back but only because she was recovering from surgery. She said, quote, I'm sure that if I didn't have the surgery, I would have just let it happen, and I don't know why. Fortunately, the science tells us why. Multiple studies show that when we're afraid or threatened, our bodies flood with adrenaline to help us deal with the trauma, and this can cause the common survival responses of fight, flight, or freeze.
Starting point is 00:40:07 the common survival responses of fight, flight or freeze. It's automatic and subconscious, but in many cases when women have frozen and just let it happen, they blame themselves for not fighting back. For this and other reasons, it's estimated that only 6% of sexual assault complainants in Canada will actually report it, according to statistics from the Canadian Women's Foundation. Even though Kelly fought back, she knew that there was a possibility that the officers wouldn't believe her, and at worst, might believe she was somehow responsible for her own victimisation. This was in 2015, just over a year before the Globe and Mail published their unfounded investigation by Robin Doolittle that found police dismiss an average of 20% of sexual assault claims as baseless or unfounded. Kelly would say she was very lucky that the
Starting point is 00:41:02 constable she spoke to at the Victoria Police Department were 100% on her side and never doubted her for a minute. Two charges of sexual assault were approved by the Crown and Callie learned that her case would be going to trial. British Columbia has an electronic court registry called Court Services Online, better known as the CSO. It's an online database available to all, where users can easily search and view court record information and documents going back decades. It shows criminal, civil, appeal and BC Supreme Court cases, both pending cases and completed cases resulting in guilty verdicts. The CSO is increasingly being used as a precaution by women who are about to meet a man in person for the first time. They can search by name to see if anything comes up, and while it's obviously not foolproof, it is another tool they can use to inform and protect themselves. The morning that the trial started, Kelly looked up the CSO to see what was listed about the 2016, almost 11 months after the incidents she reported to police, and she'd been waiting for it to show up since it was pending.
Starting point is 00:42:32 She found a record for a trial scheduled in the same courtroom at the same time and for the same charges, but Ken Erickson's name was not listed there. But Ken Erickson's name was not listed there. And there was a notation that the file was, quote, limited access CCC 486.4. Kelly didn't know what that meant, but assumed that if Ken was found guilty at trial, the record would change. It would be a short two-day trial presided over by a judge alone. Ken Erickson pleaded not guilty to two counts of sexual assault.
Starting point is 00:43:12 The first was for the allegation of forced oral sex, which happened on August 29, 2015. And the second was for the two-hour ordeal that Kelly fought through in the early morning hours of September the 1st. Both parties would testify. Kelly was nervous about reliving her experience in front of Ken and the court, but she was determined to do whatever she could to lessen the chances of the same thing happening to someone else. When it came to the August 29th incident, Callie testified that she consented to oral sex, but she felt Ken grab her curly hair and force her to deep throat him. She told the judge she was crying, choking, gagging, and struggled to breathe at points. In her mind, this was when she withdrew consent,
Starting point is 00:44:07 but the sexual encounter continued until she was finally able to push herself off and tell him to stop. The court heard it ended at this point. Ken testified that he had no specific recollection of this incident, but insisted oral sex was a regular occurrence in the relationship and he would never force Callie to do it or hold her against her will. About pulling her hair, Ken said that on a different occasion, he recalled his watch getting stuck in Callie's curly hair and she said, ouch. but again, he had no specific recollection of the encounter. Judge Carmen Rogers said that this was clearly not a pleasant interaction for Kelly, but to find Ken guilty on this charge, the evidence would need to prove that the sexual
Starting point is 00:44:58 encounter continued after Kelly withdrew her consent. The judge determined that it didn't and found Ken Erickson not guilty on this charge. The second count of sexual assault was for the incident that happened in the early hours of September 1. Kelly testified that she'd gone to Ken's place for dinner and watched him drink a lot of alcohol in a short period of time. He became belligerent and started making disrespectful comments. Fed up with how he was treating her, Kelly testified that she went to bed at about midnight, telling Ken that she would be gone in the morning.
Starting point is 00:45:46 Ken that she would be gone in the morning. She told the judge that she was woken up at 4am by Ken, who was intoxicated, naked and asking for sex. She told him that sex was still out of the question but he persisted, telling her, I'm going to rape your ass, with the promise that it wouldn't hurt because he had lube. Kelly testified about kicking and screaming and fighting as Ken tried to pry apart her cheeks. She yelled no, stop, fuck off and their safe word, drapes, but he continued, tying her legs and hands with rope and calling her too squirmy. Kelly testified that she fought him off for about two hours in total, the pain from having sex before she'd fully recovered from her surgery still fresh in her mind. Finally, when she was sure Ken was asleep, she was able to break free and get away.
Starting point is 00:46:53 Ken Erickson testified in his own defense, claiming that after Kelly went to bed, it was she who called him into the bedroom asking for sex. He told the judge he believed this meant he had her consent for later, and told Kelly he would come in after he'd cleaned up the kitchen. Instead, he said he fell asleep on the couch for a few hours. When he woke up, he walked into the bedroom and sat on the bed, where he said Kelly was awake. But on cross-examination, he admitted he didn't actually know whether she was awake or not, but insisted they often woke each other up for sexual activity. Kelly said this never happened at all during their six-week relationship. Ken told the judge he saw his box of sex toys was open and the ropes in it had been strewn on the floor, and because he believed he had consent from earlier, he grabbed a piece of rope to tie around Kelly's legs.
Starting point is 00:47:45 She told him, not now, and kicked it off. On cross-examination, Ken acknowledged that this part of his testimony meant that Kelly was not consenting to this sexual activity. Ken said he got into bed, lay next to Kelly and made various attempts to get her in the mood for sex. lay next to Kelly and made various attempts to get her in the mood for sex. He told the judge that Kelly asked him to cuddle her instead of sex, but he declined, saying he wanted sex, not cuddles. Kelly had testified to fighting Ken off over two hours, but in Ken's version of events, the entire incident was over in about 15 minutes. He told the judge that when Kelly got up and got dressed, he told her to take all her belongings with her.
Starting point is 00:48:33 On cross-examination, Ken was asked about Kelly's testimony that he told her, quote, I'm going to rape your ass. He said that while he probably dropped the F-bomb to Kelly a few times, he insisted that he wouldn't have used the word rape, and he couldn't remember if he mentioned having lube or not. He also couldn't recall hearing Kelly say no, or stop, or the safe word drapes at any point, but maintained he would never have done something Kelly was uncomfortable with. maintained he would never have done something Kelly was uncomfortable with. Kelly had testified that Ken ripped the elastic of her underwear, and Ken had an answer to this. He produced a pair of women's underwear with elastic intact and told the judge he found them later in his bed when he changed the sheets, insisting they belonged to Kelly because she was the only person he was sleeping with. On cross-examination, he acknowledged that he had no recollection of her ever wearing that underwear, and he had no evidence to give about how or when they came to be removed from
Starting point is 00:49:38 her body. Kelly had also testified that she threw the ripped underwear out when she got home because they were ruined. She categorically stated that the underwear Ken held up did not belong to her. It wasn't a style that she would have worn. In fact, it wasn't even her size. In closing submissions to the judge, Ken's defense lawyer, Ray D'Anno, took every opportunity to chip away at Kelly's testimony, with rhetorical questions based on the rape myth that a true or perfect victim will behave a certain way afterwards. After the first incident with forceful oral sex, why didn't Kelly leave immediately? Why didn't she confront Ken about what he'd done? Why did she spend the next day with him? And why did she show up to his place for dinner?
Starting point is 00:50:38 Why did she bring beer? Why didn't she take any photos of the bruises? Why did it take her a week to report it to police? In reference to Kelly's testimony about Ken's drinking, his defense lawyer pointed out that Kelly was a drinker too and perhaps her alcohol use impacted on her memory in a negative way. The defense argued that if Ken was as drunk as Kelly said, then he surely wouldn't have been able to maintain an erection. And besides, Ken didn't actually penetrate Kelly. The lawyer described his action in trying to pry open her cheeks as apparently, quote, just part of sort of the normal type of sexual initiation activity that they engaged in. According to Kelly, there was nothing normal about it. Judge Rogers sided with the Crown. Ken believed he had advanced consent, but even if Kelly did consent earlier that evening, it must also be given again, at the time of an encounter
Starting point is 00:51:34 and in relation to the specific sexual act occurring. The judge determined that even in Ken's own version of events, he made no attempt to ascertain Kelly's consent at the time of the sexual contact. He didn't even ascertain if she was awake. Judge Rogers found Ken's testimony did not provide a clear recollection of events, and his responses were phrased as what he would or wouldn't have done and what usually happened, rather than what he actually did and actually happened. The judge determined that because of alcohol intoxication, Ken wasn't able to recall many of the events of the evening,
Starting point is 00:52:18 and so his version of events can't be relied upon. Judge Roberts stated she believed Kelly and found her testimony forthright and consistent, with no attempts to create evidence, fill in gaps, exaggerate Ken's actions or minimize her own. Quote, on September the 1st in the early morning hours, Mr. Erickson entered the bedroom where Ms. Favreau was sleeping and persistently touched her sexually without her consent as she testified. I find there was no basis for him to believe she had consented and every reason, including her words and her actions, to know she was not consenting. Ken Erickson was found guilty of this count of sexual assault.
Starting point is 00:53:09 After the verdict, the Crown Prosecutor pulled Kelly aside and with another witness present, told her some news that could only be shared after the verdict. Kelly was shocked to learn that she was not the first woman to make a complaint against Ken Erickson. Kelly was shocked to learn that she was not the first woman to make a complaint against Ken Erickson. There was someone else who alleged sexual assault before her, and she was told it resulted in a charge, but the case didn't make it to trial. That's not so unusual. A 2017 report by Statistics Canada found that only 49% of sexual assault cases with charges make it to court in the first place, as compared with 75% of physical assaults. This prompted Kelly to check the CSO website again. Now that Ken had been found guilty, perhaps his name would appear if someone searched the website. But it was still hidden.
Starting point is 00:54:10 She'd check again after sentencing. The Sentencing Hearing was held in December of 2016, and Kelly delivered her victim impact statement. She'd actually written one months earlier when the Crown first gave her the paperwork, and this is her reading part of her revised statement, which includes an explanation of why she needed to rewrite it. I wrote my victim impact statement in January, the day that I got it, when I wrote the original version, a version that as of this moment I still cannot read. I didn't realize just how messed up I was. I was going through the motions of my inner office manager, saw paper on my desk, and promptly filled it out with honesty in the pain that I felt. That's not to say that what I wrote isn't a true
Starting point is 00:55:14 reflection to what I was feeling at the time, but in the last seven months I've changed. I've lost friends. I've lost weight. I stress out over the thought of actually having to testify in court and tell my story and face this person because he pled not guilty, because he doesn't think that what he did was wrong, because I said no so goddamn loud and he kept going. When I filed my statement, I didn't think it would go this far because of all the times you hear in the press about how charges never stick, they get dropped, there's not enough evidence. I thought I just had to report this and just get it on the record that I said no, and I genuinely feared for my safety that night. To protect other women, because I'm sure I'm not the first to have said no, but my worry is that I'm not going to be
Starting point is 00:55:53 the last. And that's why I came forward. I wanted no other person to feel what I went through that night, and the sheer fear of wondering if I was strong enough to protect myself, no one deserves that. I said no repeatedly. I didn't know the year of my life would be on hold because someone refused to take no for an answer. Two letters and one word has forever changed my life. I didn't know that this whole process would fuck me up this badly and I spiraled down. I found comfort at the bottom of a bottle and faked my way through social situations to maintain appearances and it only got worse from there. In the summer of 2015, I would have no more than a couple of drinks after I got home from a minimum six kilometer run, and call it a day, watch a show, and go to bed. It wasn't until
Starting point is 00:56:34 I learned that this was going to trial, and I would have to tell my story, and parts of it I never want to remember again, such as where I had to describe where bruises were on my butt and my thighs, or the sheer fear of somebody repeatedly saying that they were going to rape my ass and that it was okay because he'd used lube, that I couldn't sleep without drinking enough to sleep soundly, even if only for a few hours. I watched my friends distance themselves from me because I wasn't the Kelly that they knew and loved,
Starting point is 00:56:59 because I let this consume me, because I let this two-hour experience define who I am as a functional human being in our society. I am broken because of how bad I let this person try to hurt me. I keep hearing myself scream no. I've woken up in cold sweats and I've had nightmares. I've missed work from the stress surrounding the build-up to this day because I simply cannot face the world or find the energy to leave my couch.
Starting point is 00:57:21 I don't even get hungover anymore. I think about this trial and what caused this trial constantly. I said no so many times. I said no so many times and he didn't listen. He wouldn't back off. He physically hurt me. He was mentally and emotionally demeaning to me, but that's not why we are here today. He tried to hurt me and I begged and I pleaded with him to stop. I said no and I said no so many goddamn times that I lost count. I said no and he kept going and going and wouldn't stop. I said no and that's what I need you to know today. That's why we are here today. I said no and he heard me.
Starting point is 00:57:57 I will continue with my counseling sessions. I have a long way to go to get back to an acceptable level of me but I will be me again. I just don't know how long it'll take. He needs to know that what he did was wrong, and it was a shitty thing to do to a person. He needs to understand that I didn't want this, and I hope he has felt something throughout this trial. I hope he understands that he did wrong, and this is not acceptable. He has a daughter, and I sincerely hope she never experiences what her father has put me through. daughter and I sincerely hope she never experiences what her father has put me through. Us survivors are labeled as heroes and brave, but what we feel is literally the complete opposite.
Starting point is 00:58:35 We are shells of what we once were. We are not the same people. Someone took that from us. We will never be the same people. We aren't survivors. We are literally the walking dead. With that, the judge sentenced Ken Erickson to a conditional sentence of 18 months house arrest, followed by two years probation. He wasn't to consume alcohol, but there were no firearms restrictions. The judge noted that he continued to deny his guilt and was not willing to acknowledge the law around the steps that must be taken to ascertain consent. Ken Erickson would be on the sex offender registry for 10 years and would have to pay a $100 victim surcharge fine. Kelly checked the CSO, British Columbia's court services online website, and his name still wasn't showing up. She was starting to feel a bit frustrated but assumed there were probably just court delays. But Kelly's world crashed a year later. In 2017, the Crown contacted her with news that Ken was going to appeal either
Starting point is 00:59:48 the verdict or his sentence, and the exact grounds weren't known yet but they would keep her in the loop. Kelly was devastated. She'd tried to put everything behind her but she'd been struggling. She had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, which causes intense, disturbing thoughts and feelings related to a traumatic experience long after it has ended. The clinking sound of ice cubes going into a glass had become an instant trigger for Kelly, and without realizing it, she would feel her chest tighten and her body tense up every time she heard that sound. She was sent into visceral flashbacks of the night she spent two hours fighting off an intoxicated man trying to rape her, a man who complained that
Starting point is 01:00:40 she was too squirmy. That word became a major trigger to her as well. Kelly had anxiety attacks and found it difficult to trust people, especially in romantic relationships. Even though she felt damaged, shattered and weak, she was determined to move on with her life as best she could. But learning Ken was appealing opened up a deep wound. She tried desperately to get information on the grounds for his appeal, what month it would take place, anything, but there was delay after delay. As month after month flew by, she fell into a deep depression. she fell into a deep depression. The following year, 2018, Kelly was notified that Ken's conditional sentence of 18 months house arrest was complete and he had moved back to Victoria. Ken had never admitted guilt or acknowledged what he'd done and Victoria is a very small city.
Starting point is 01:01:43 Kelly was nervous about running into him, but she was also worried that other women might be at risk. His name still wasn't showing up on the CSO website. Now, she suspected it was because of the appeal and hoped there would be news about it soon. Ken Erickson's appeal of his conviction dragged out for three years. Appeals can be stressful enough for those on the victim's side, but even more so for the survivor, and Kelly reached out often to the Crown prosecutor she'd built relationships with to get updates on where the appeal was at. She would say they'd always been good to her and they always replied to her questions with as much information as they could. But there were countless delays and rescheduling,
Starting point is 01:02:35 some because the Crown was unavailable, some because of Ken's legal team, some because of the way the criminal justice system is set up, and then COVID hit, causing more delays. Kelly felt like she was in the dark most of the time. By the time Ken's appeal was heard, it was 2020, and Kelly's beloved shih tzu George had sadly passed away. But she'd also welcomed new life.
Starting point is 01:03:02 She'd given birth to her first child. Kelly was extremely relieved when the B.C. Court of Appeals dismissed Ken's appeal. He had no more legal recourse. She posted a victory statement to social media. I won. Five years after the assault, four years after the trial, conviction and sentencing, and now three years after the appeal came to the table, it is finally over. The justice system worked for all women and survivors today. I won. He lost his appeal and he cannot appeal again. Five fucking years of fighting with him saying I was asking for it and that I begged him to fuck me. None of that was true and I finally heard what his testimony was too instead of just little remarks here and
Starting point is 01:03:48 there. None of what he said was even close to the truth and both judges saw right through his bullshit. Hearing that he said he knew that I said stop and no and he kept going anyway, I nearly threw up during the hearing this morning. But it's finally over. I shouldn't have had to fight as hard or as long as I did to prove that this happened to me. I shouldn't have had to fight as hard or as long as I did to prove that this happened to me. I shouldn't have had to be stronger than any normal person for the last three years while waiting on the appeal. There is still a long way to go for survivors. To all those who have been abused, I believe you. Please see my story as one to give you hope that you are strong enough to report your abuse and that no one has the right to your body except for you. Please see my story and know that I kicked, screamed, cried and fought through the system
Starting point is 01:04:28 every moment for five years to make sure he could never hurt someone in our community again. Please do the same if someone hurts you. I believe you. Now that the appeal was dismissed, Kelly saw this as the end of the line for her case and the court process. But Ken's name was still not visible on the CSO, either under the normal search function or under the appeals section. Kelly had spent several years telling herself that there must be a good reason for it. But Ken had now been convicted and sentenced. He'd finished his sentence and lost his appeal. Kelly's patience had run out. She reached out to the Court Services Online Support Center to ask why Ken Erickson wasn't searchable on the CSO. The response was
Starting point is 01:05:22 quote, Please be advised that there is a ban which has been ordered on the file and this restricts access to the court file and as a result of the ban the court file is not available on CSO. A ban? When Kelly asked if there's anything she can do to have Ken's name unbanned, she was told that a judge had ordered the ban and she would need to contact that court location to have it removed. So, Kelly contacted Victoria Court Scheduling and told them she hoped to better understand why there is a ban on Ken's name and which part of the criminal code it fell under. She was told, quote, The publication ban is not on his name. It is on the witness, victim, complainant. If you are advising that you are the victim in this file, it would mean that
Starting point is 01:06:12 the publication ban is on your name. The ban was made active on November 6, 2015 under Section CCC 486.4. Five years. Kelly's identity had been under a publication ban for more than 5 years, and she had no idea. She contacted the Victoria Police Department constable she originally gave statements to, and discovered that when Ken was first charged with sexual assault, the Crown prosecutor had requested the publication ban to protect Kelly's privacy as the complainant, and she was shocked to learn that there was no requirement for the Crown to advise or even request consent from the complainant in advance, nor is there any requirement to inform them afterwards that their name is now under publication ban. afterwards that their name is now under publication ban. A spokesperson for the BC Prosecution Service would later tell the Vancouver Island Free Daily newspaper that Crown prosecutors do try to meet with complainants early in the process to explain
Starting point is 01:07:21 their options when it comes to publication bans. But sometimes, the accused's first court appearance happens before this meeting takes place, and the complainant isn't required to attend, so the prosecutor will order a publication ban as part of this court appearance before they've had a chance to speak with the complainant. When that happens, the spokesperson said prosecutors are typically diligent in notifying complainants that there is a publication ban in place and what it means for them. This was all good and well, but obviously it didn't happen in Kelly's case. She hadn't been told a single thing, But her frustration wasn't directed at the Crown
Starting point is 01:08:05 prosecutors. She'd been through a trial process and knew of some of the competing priorities they dealt with. She generally felt well taken care of as the complainant. In Kelly's mind, the glaring issue was the law. The fact that there is no legal requirement to give complainants any information at all about publication bans placed on their name. The Canadian Criminal Code essentially presents this as an optional courtesy that a diligent Crown prosecutor might do if they had some spare time. It's sadly common for those on the victim's side to feel like they're not being heard or considered as they journey through the criminal justice system. But when it comes to sexual assault cases involving living survivors, there is another layer to consider. no information given to sexual assault complainants about publication bans, then they literally cannot consent to having their identity placed under one. So in effect, the ban is imposed on them,
Starting point is 01:09:14 giving them no choice or personal agency in the matter. Kelly was struck by the immense irony of this happening to a person who complained of sexual assault. And unfortunately, there was more to come. That's where we'll leave it for part one. Thanks for listening and special thanks to Kelly Favreau. In part two, Kelly embarks on an epic journey to have her publication ban removed and finds the process to be even more frustrating than she ever expected, and she soon learns that she's not alone. You'll also hear the harrowing stories of two
Starting point is 01:09:59 other survivors who had publication bans ordered without their consent and experienced completely separate negative consequences as a result. It would all culminate in a trip to Ottawa to fight for changes in how publication bans are applied. They need your help and there is a way that you can make a difference right now. If you agree that survivors of sexual assault should have to consent before a publication ban is ordered on their names, and you're a citizen or resident of Canada, please go into the show notes and follow the link to read and sign the petition now. There's power in numbers and we thank you in advance for lending your support to this important cause. Part 2 will be released in the next few days and if you're a premium feed subscriber on Amazon Music
Starting point is 01:10:52 included with Prime, Apple Podcasts, Patreon and Supercast, look out for the ad-free early release. For the full list of resources we relied on to write this episode and anything else you want to know about the podcast, including how to access ad-free episodes, visit canadiantruecrime.ca. Production assistance was by Jesse Hawke, with script consulting by Carol Weinberg. Writing, narration, sound design and research was by me, and the disclaimer was voiced by Eric Crosby. I'll be back soon with part two. See you then. Thank you.

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