Canadian True Crime - The Murder of Tori Stafford [1]

Episode Date: August 27, 2017

A three-part series — In 2009 in the city of Woodstock, Ontario, an 8-year-old girl would go missing. This shocking story that unfolded would decimate the façade of the sleepy, blue-collar city, exposing a network of cracks that had long lay just below the surface. The damage would be both widespread and irrecoverable.* Additional content warning: this episode includes coarse language, adult themes, violence, graphic information and the death of a child. Please take care when listening.Look out for early, ad-free release on CTC premium feeds: available on Amazon Music (included with Prime), Apple Podcasts, Patreon and Supercast. Full list of resources, information sources, credits and music credits:See the page for this episode at www.canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome to Canadian True Crime, Episode 12, The Murder of Torrey Stafford, Part 1. This is Christy. This podcast contains coarse language, adult themes and content of a violent and disturbing nature. And I wanted to add an additional warning for this episode and the next, as they're about the sexual assault and murder of a young child. Many tears were shed during the research and writing of this episode. By now, you'll probably know that I don't. don't like to go into graphic detail unless absolutely necessary,

but if this subject matter is a trigger for you, I'll completely understand if you need to walk away now. Also, you probably noticed that this episode took a little longer to release than usual, and I just wanted to thank you for your patience. Woodstock is a city of about 40,000 people, situated in the province of Ontario, about an hour and a half's drive southwest from Toronto. It's one of the few cities in the province to still have all of its original administration buildings,

so as something of a historic location. It's known as the Dairy Capital of Canada, and has been at the center of a farm belt, an industry that helped Woodstock prosper in the 20th century. However, while similar southwestern Ontario cities like Waterloo, Guelph and London made gains in academia and population growth thanks to their local university campuses, Woodstock was without one and seemed to just stick to what it knows, farming and associated industries. Even the former mayor of Woodstock Michael Harding said, quote, We've always done good with our hands.

As a result of stable blue-collar industry, the population has also stayed stable, but demographics showed the Woodstock population has been less inclined to further their education beyond high school. The 2006 census reported that only 10% of Woodstock residents had a university degree and 29% didn't graduate from high school. And in any community where people rely on physical labor to make their living, injuries are more frequent, with worn out joints and aching backs requiring prescriptions for powerful painkillers, like the well-known opiate oxycontin.

In 2009, Woodstock would be home to a story so shocking and hard, heartbreaking that it would decimate the facade of the sleepy blue-collar city, exposing a network of cracks that had long lay just below the surface. The damage would be both widespread and irrecoverable. This story is about a little girl called Victoria Elizabeth Marie Stafford. She was born on July 15, 2000, the second child of Rodney Stafford and Tara McDonald, a couple who also had a three-year-old son called Darren. Rodney and Tara had married young. In fact, Tara was only 17, and before Victoria turned three, the couple had split up. Victoria, known as Tori to friends and family, was known as a spunky, energetic and restless

little girl. The central figures in her life, her parents, grandmothers, aunts and uncles, all described her as a, quote, bright spark of life. As a baby, she was so full of energy that she wouldn't sleep. By the time she was a toddler, when she was to be put down for the night, she would constantly pop back up to peek over the rail of her crib. As Tori grew, she remained a restless spirit. Her relatives remember her as a girl who was always on the go. The longer she tried to sit still, the ancier she seemed to get.

Her mother Tara recalls that Tori would never walk anywhere, but instead would bounce and skip wherever she went. Tori was not afraid to talk to anyone and showed compassion for all people. Her paternal grandmother described her as, quote, A little pistol. Despite her relentless motion and energy, Tori was also a sweet girl who loved to hug and cuddle. When her parents split,

her mother, Tara, was granted full custody and father, Rodney got regular visitation rights. But the split was far from amicable. Tara and Rodney would engage in fiery arguments which resulted in the two becoming estranged. Rodney was a drug user and a bit of a drifter, and eventually his visits became few and further between. Around 2005, when Tori was five years old, Tara began using Oxycontin and ended up developing a full-blown addiction to the painkiller. Her boyfriend was also using it too. Predictably, Tara's drug habit resulted in some financial problems. In a 2008 Christmas wish list, Tori wrote, she included the fact that she wanted all her

stuff back from the pawn shop. And Tara was always moving house. By grade three, Tori had already attended eight different schools. Because of their mother's unreliability, Tori and her big brother Darren were often at their maternal grandmother's house, sometimes for a stretch of days or weeks. Linda, Tara's mother, ended up being a predominant figure in her grandchildren's lives, helping to raise the two during their mother's addiction and father's absence. Despite the dysfunction of their family, their grandmother played a huge part in ensuring

Tori and Darren remained happy, well-adjusted children. Tori's attitude was always positive and upbeat. She was smart and strong-willed. Her teacher recalls that she was a spirited little girl who was thoughtful and inquisitive, always trying to help her peers. She loved her little Shih Tzu dog called Cosmo, and her favorite color was purple.

She also loved drama, coloring, and music. Her mom, Tara, said that the one thing Tori loved more than music was spending time with her brother, Darren. They were extremely close. Early in the year 2009, Tori was eight years old, Darren was 10, and they were both attending Oliver Stevens Elementary School in Woodstock. Their mother Tara had checked herself into a Woodstock methadone clinic for treatment. She'd realized her addiction to Oxycontin had affected her health and her finances. She wanted to clean up, and she had to clean up, and she had been making some progress. Although she hadn't stopped using completely, she had managed to curb

her addiction down. And father Rodney Stafford had been doing some cleaning up of his own, in an effort to get on the straight and narrow he'd gone back to school to get his grade 12. April 7, 2009 was School Picture Day. Showing her mischievous side, Torrey snuck a pair of soccer cleats into her bag unbeknownst to her mother and wore them for her. the picture. The resulting photo also features her wearing a pink t-shirt with the word shopping, as well as a cheeky glint in her eye. It perfectly highlighted the two sides of Tori. She was a girly girl who loved dressing up, lip gloss, and doing her short blonde hair, but she was also a tomboy who loved insects, jumping in puddles, and getting dirty. Her mother recalled, quote,

she would be outside in a dress picking up worms. That night, Tara and Tori had just finished up Tori's bedroom in their newly rented house. They decorated the room with Brat's Doll War decals, Disney princesses, and posters featuring high school musical, just a few of Tori's favourite things. The next day was April 8, 2009, the day that would have an unprecedented impact on both her family and the entire city of Woodstock. That morning, Tori woke up excited for the day ahead. Her mother Tara said she wasn't a morning person, so her mood seemed abnormally good. That evening after school, she was supposed to spend some time with her dad

before having a few of her friends over to watch the movie High School Musical 3. Tara said, quote, It was one morning where she didn't fight, she wasn't fussy, she wasn't cranky, her clothes were laid out the night before. I put a little bit of lip gloss on her, I lent her my ear, headband and my butterfly earrings. She brushed her own hair that day. She was dressed and ready to go on time. It was only a week after their newest house move, so arrangements for after school were in the process of changing. Before the move, Tori's brother Darren, 10 years old at the time, had been

dropping off a couple of disabled children who lived right next to the school. Tori and Darren's previous house was in that same complex, and even though they now lived a few blocks away, Darren said he would still walk the two kids home. Darren was under the impression that Tori would be playing at the school while she waited for him to drop the other kids off, as she often did. Her mother said she often played there for half an hour after school finished before walking home next door. But with the new house being a bit further away than the old house,

Darren thought he'd collect her after he dropped the two kids off and they would walk the couple of blocks together to get home to their new house. At 3.25pm, Tori's class was dismissed, but Tori remembered she'd left her mum's butterfly earrings in the classroom, so asked for permission to go back in and get them. Her teacher gave permission, and Tori ran back inside, meaning she ended up coming out a minute later than the rest of her class. After Darren walked the other children home,

he returned to the school to get his little sister and walk home together. But Tori wasn't there. It seemed everyone had already gone home. He walked home to see if Tori was there, and when Tara told him she hadn't returned, he jumped on his bike and rode around the neighborhood looking for her. At 5pm, he returned to his house to find that Tori still wasn't home. At this point, Tara realized that her daughter was not just late playing with other children,

so she started calling around to Tori's friends' houses. No one had seen or heard from Tori. It seemed like she'd just vanished. Next, Tara called her mum, Linda Winters, the grandmother that Tori and Darren spent a lot of time with. Linda drove over straight away, and together they drove around the neighbourhood looking for Tori. At 540, they spotted a police officer and stopped to tell him what was happening. The officer told them to go back to the police station. Linda dropped Tara back home in case Tori arrived home

and went to the Oxford Community Police Service to report her granddaughter missing. It was now 604 p.m. Police and local volunteers immediately started searching the school and the neighbourhood. While there were many requests for an Amber alert to be triggered, they could only do so with the permission from the Ontario Provincial Police. But the request was turned down because the criteria required had not been. met. For an Amber alert to be triggered, police must

believe a child under 18 has just been abducted, consider the child to be in danger of serious bodily harm, and have descriptive information of a suspect or vehicle. The Oxford Community Police said that because of the lack of information at this point,

Tory was only considered to be a missing person, although they said it was still considered to be a highly serious investigation. The local community were greatly upset at the failure to activate an Amber alert and an online petition was started up that gathered signatures from angry locals. By the next day, the search for Tory had been augmented with hundreds of local volunteers, canines, a search and rescue crew from the nearby city of London and helicopter searches. Neighbors handed out flyers and scoured

streets, yards and fields throughout the day. Police started obtaining surveillance footage from around the school and quickly found something. Some footage was captured by a nearby high school's camera at 3.32 p.m. Remember, Tori was dismissed at 325 and ran back in to get her butterfly earrings. Tori was identified in the blurry footage because of her cropped blonde hair, skirt, and black fur-lined hoodie. She was accompanied by a woman who appeared to be between 19 and 25 years old with long black hair. The woman was wearing a white jacket and jeans. In the footage, the pair walked briskly past several people,

although Tory didn't seem in distress or like she was being forced. The police released the footage to the public that day, asking them to come forward with any information they could use to identify the woman, who they called a person of interest. That night, Tori's mom Tara McDonald announced that they were offering a reward for Tori's return. She said, quote, We just want her home, no questions asked,

$10,000 reward. She went on to say that they wanted this to be over and done with, adding that they didn't need to know a reason. They just wanted their daughter home safely. Four days after Tori's disappearance, there was a massive search operation underway. with at least 200 tips that police were investigating. But as yet, no clue as to what happened to Tori

or the identity of the woman in the video. Tori's father, Rodney Stafford, said, although he'd gone over it in his mind, he didn't recognize the woman in the video. Rodney even acknowledged that Tori looked happy to be with the woman. The police even speculated publicly that they thought it was highly likely that little Tori knew the woman she was walking with,

and the lack of evidence of foul play meant they were hopeful that the little girl was okay. Tori's mother Tara had contacted the police, saying that the woman in the surveillance video could be someone she knew slightly named Terry, who wore a white jacket. Tara said that this person had a distinctive walk that she recognized. The police went to work to investigate this tip,

but Tara was not told the outcome. The mystery of what happened to Toriard, Tory had consumed the city of Woodstock, which then had about 36,000 people. Almost every business displayed a colour missing poster, and there were posters on houses and cars. It was the talk of the town. Everyone speculated as to who the mysterious woman in the white coat could be. Parents at Tory school dropped their children off in a heavy air of worry. Parents were terrified for their children. The school brought in eight counsellors to help the children understand the situation and deal with their feelings.

Tori's family handed out purple ribbons for people to wear as a public display of support, Tori's favorite color. By day six, the Oxford Community Police were being asked to explain why it took them several hours to announce that Tory was missing. The organization asking the question was the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children in the state of Virginia in the U.S., who said that in the U.S., who said that in the U.S., police are required to notify the FBI within two hours. The Oxford Community Police said they reacted as quickly as possible.

Child Find Ontario, a local organisation, said that they supported the police's reasoning of why an Amber Alert wasn't called, saying it would be dangerous to water down the rules because it would reduce the impact they have on grabbing the public's and media's attention. The spokesperson noted that there are more than 20,000 reports of missing children every year in Ontario alone, so there would be a few Amber alerts going off on a daily basis. One week after Tory disappeared,

the police still weren't calling this situation an abduction, and Tara MacDonald expressed her frustration to the media, saying, quote, well, this is an abduction, this is a missing child. Someone has abducted her, it's obvious. They took my child. So, I mean, I wish it would be treated as an abduction because it is. Two days later, the police held a press conference starting off by saying that the Ontario provincial police had now joined the investigation.

There are new developments tonight in the investigation into the disappearance of 8-year-old Torrey Stafford. The OPP is now in charge and for the first time it is officially being called an abduction. Tonight the search for the 8-year-old extends to Toronto. Tori's picture is now being shown across the TTC network on platform screens. And as Darrell Canaanabelt reports, police have now taken Tori's mom. white coat for examination. On day nine of Torrey Stafford's disappearance, the city police chief hands over the reins of the investigation

to the OPP's criminal branch. We're now considering this case the child abduction. It's a new classification in the case, yet a contradiction to earlier police statements that said Tori walked away willingly with a woman in a white jacket captured on school video surveillance on April 8th. Whoever that person was had to have either gone into the school or gone close to the school.

to get her. Inside Tori's home, her mother Tara, expressed frustration that it took this long to call it an abduction. Somebody had this planned out. I'm confident, though, that somebody was watching our family. Tara tells global news the OPP have taken her white jacket, but the OPP not commenting on any other evidence, a composite sketch, or if that woman is even from Woodstock. While the police chased up leads to find Tori, the city of Woodstock began to speculate. In cases like these, the parents are often the first under suspicion, and given that few people knew about Tara's drug use, the rumor mill went into overdrive. They speculated that perhaps Tori's disappearance was somehow related to a drug debt, or even revenge. An angry Tara McDonald,

who had taken to holding media scrums outside her house every afternoon, lashed out at those spreading rumors. She defended herself, insisting she hadn't done drugs since high school, quote, it's all bullshit, I don't owe anyone anything. If there's anyone who says I owe him money, bring him to me here and I'll answer all questions. She went on to say that she had taken a polygraph, as had her boyfriend James Gores, his mother, Tori's father Rodney Stafford, as well as other people close to the family. Rodney said that everyone, including his close family and friends, had become suspects in his mind. quote, I can't help it.

I look at everyone and wonder if they had anything to do with my little girl's disappearance. While nothing new or significant turned up for police, the awareness campaign continued. A walk for Tori saw dozens quietly walk the track behind the high school where Tori was last seen walking before she vanished with the woman in the white coat. On April the 21st, 2009, police released a composite sketch of the woman. woman in the white coat from details provided by a witness. The family of Rodney Stafford, Tory's father, said that they had their suspicions about who it might be, someone that Rodney had gone to school with, and had shared these suspicions with

the police. Tara McDonald said she had no clue who it could be. With fresh new information, the community again started speculating. First was that the woman in the white coat was actually Tara McDonald. People one day. why she never seemed to be crying when she was interviewed for television. She took to the media to address this. There's times where I sit in my house and I ball my eyes out. I curl up in a ball and I saw, but I'm not going to come out here and do that. It's just not the kind of person I am.

I'm not able to come out here and ball and cry for you guys, you know? And people have asked many times, why aren't you crying? Why aren't you showing emotion? I don't do it out here. I do it in there with my friends and family. Through people who can console me. At the end of the day, like I've said to many people, the negative people on Facebook, at the end of the day, I know that I had nothing to do with this.

I am a good mother, and either one of my kids will tell you that. And what they have to say, I did have a little lashback last night. And it wasn't rude, I just said, you know, whoever it is that is saying negative things on here, you know, you really don't have anything to do with yourself, and that's pretty sad. They should be ashamed of themselves. Really, they should. Because, I mean, like I said, me and Darren go and we read the positive message. messages that are on Facebook and every now and then he sees a negative one and it upsets him.

So people need to think about the other child that's involved and think about Tori. Quit pointing a finger at me, quit pointing fingers at everybody else until there's somebody that we can point a finger at. Meanwhile, the police sifted through over a thousand tips in the case, and it was announced that Tori's case would be featured on a segment of the America's Most Wanted television program. On April the 27th, 2009, 19 days after Tori disappeared, Tara said that an anonymous donor had offered to put up however much money was needed to bring Tori home.

She said police were looking into the offer. She also said that she broke down during her polygraph test, which was taken three days after Tori's disappearance, insinuating that her reaction may have influenced the results. She said she was willing to take another test now, that she was calmer. The next day, the Oxford Community Police Service announced that the reward was now $50,000 for information leading to the arrest and conviction of the person responsible for Tory's abduction. Tara said that the donor, still anonymous, was the parent of a

child who was also abducted. They were told by police not to pay a ransom, and they lost their child. They didn't want this happening to Tory. On May 4th, 2009, there seemed to be a new lead. The police announced that they had identified a vehicle of interest, a car that was seeing passing by the abduction scene moments after Tory vanished. The police said they weren't looking at it as a suspect, but was one of the many vehicles seen in the surveillance tape, and this was one that they hadn't identified. The only description they could give was that it was dark-colored and small to mid-size. The picture they released showed, a sporty looking car with shiny black rims.

The paint job looked unique. As police chased more leads, the talk around the town again centered on Tara MacDonald. They said she had a bad attitude and her daily media scrums were perceived as having turned the situation into a media circus for herself. A woodstock local said that few people were talking about Tori

and everyone was talking about her mother Tara. Her choice of clothes, her immaccomplice of clothes, her immaculate makeup, and the lack of emotion she seemed to display while speaking to the media. On the other hand, it was quite evident that her face was the face of someone who wasn't getting a lot of sleep, and who likely had been doing a lot of crying. At the same time, rumours started surfacing that the composite sketch of the woman in the white coat bore a strong resemblance to a woman named Sarah, the best friend of Tara MacDonald. She was questioned repeatedly by police and they searched her house.

Sarah came out to the press to deny that she had anything to do with Tory's abduction. Also, her weight, height, hair description and other details didn't match up to the woman in the white coat. The police soon moved on. The media reported that the police, now desperate for answers, searched two houses in Calgary, Alberta. One was the residence of Tara's brother John McDonald, Tori's uncle, and the other was his mother's house in Calgary. The police didn't reveal whether the searchers found anything, but there was a rumor that Tori had been cited in Alberta.

On May the 12th, 2009, just over a month since Tori went missing, Tara read to the media a message she had written for her daughter. Here's some of what she said. One of the many things that keeps me strong and keeps me fighting is the thought of holding you in my arms and smelling your hair, stroking your little ears and hearing your sweet little voice saying, I love you, Mama, and I missed you. I will find you my baby no matter what it takes. You know in your heart and soul that I'm going to do anything it takes to bring you back where you belong. I miss you so, so much, my princess, and Mama knows that you miss me too.

I'm trying very hard to do what you learned at Sunday school shortly before you were taken from me. You taught Mommy and James and Darren that we need to love our enemies. So I have given up on trying to figure out why this awful person or persons have done this to our family. And Mommy's going to take your advice. I'm going to take all of the negativity, the anger, the pain that we are feeling. I'm going to turn it all into strength, stubbornness, and determination and use it in a positive way. I'm going to love my enemies, and while I'm praying for you and your safe return, I'm going to pray that whoever it is that has my princess will find the compassion with

in their own hearts to do the right thing and to feel the pain that not only your family is feeling, but that the entire world is feeling with us. As your mommy, I know how your beautiful and shining little face and personality can reach into the depths of my soul on even my crabbiest of days and make it bright, as I know it has now touched every single person who has heard what we are going through. Stay strong, princess, and don't doubt for a second that we are coming for you and you will once again be safe. Just a couple of days after that, things took a strange turn when,

Tara decided to admit to journalists for the first time that she was fighting an addiction to Oxycontin. She said her son and daughter never had a clue and her addiction didn't impact her ability to look after them. Quote, if I didn't have money to buy a pill, I didn't have the money to buy a pill, bottom line. She went on to say that Tory's abduction had nothing to do with a drug debt. Unfortunately, that same day, the afternoon media scrum turned ugly as a result. Torrey's father Rodney Stafford joined his ex-wife as he often did, and they were barely two minutes into their news conference when the stress they'd been experiencing exploded to the surface.

It doesn't have anything to do with methadone. It has to do with me as a person. People have said, you know, I don't come out here and bawl and cry in front of the cameras and carry on. And, you know, there was somebody who put their kids in their car seats and drove into a lake with their kids, and they went out there and bawled and cried and carried on. and they were the person who was responsible for it.

I'm just not the kind of person that can come out here and cry for the cameras every single day. And like I've said before, if you guys want me to call you back when I'm in my home and I'm bawling my eyes out, and I'm at my worst, if that'll make people feel better and maybe get some compassion out of them, then maybe I should start doing that.

So what were you kind of saying because I was crying and showing my emotions and stuff I'm behind this? No, I'm not saying that. Because that's the way I took what you just said. No, I'm saying that people get angry because I don't come out here and I can't cry in front of cameras. And so people are holding that against me and saying that, you know, she's acting this way,

so she must have something to do with it. That's just the way that I am. I can't come out here and open up for a bunch of strangers. And if people can't understand that, then... Sorry, this is making me really frustrated, Tara, because this is your daughter. It doesn't matter who should be standing in front of you. I could have the world standing here, and I would cry. I wouldn't care.

Tori is missing. Do you think, Ronnie, I'm not going to stand here and fight with you about it, okay? You know what? From now on, any of these press conferences, okay? If you want to do them, continue them, I will do mine elsewhere because, no, you are showing a total lack of support or support for your daughter. You know what? You want to talk about a lack of support for my daughter. Where the hell were you for the last nine years?

Okay. Where were you for the last nine years? Check every one of these cameras, every one of these media, every one of those police officers. You've been at them now, but where were you for the last nine years? Them, everything from the beginning. Yeah, walk away like usual. Rodney, can you come back for a second? What?

Your ex-wife, obviously, you know, she's come forward and talked about this addiction that she had. Which she lied about right from the very beginning. What do you mean? She hid it from everybody. They're drugs. Said there was no drugs involved. There was none of this, none of this, none of this.

And then, what, a month and a week later, everything has to be truthful. Like, why wait a month and a half? Waiting for things to settle down? Tara stormed inside the house, and Rodney finished the media conference himself, holding on to his customary cup of Tim Horton's coffee. After he'd finished, Tara came back out

and apologized for her outburst. What the public were seeing were estranged parents, who of course weren't perfect, having to come together and appear as a united front under the most stressful and distressing of circumstances. Tensions under the surface were bound to come to light sooner or later. A couple of days later, Rodney and Tara again appeared as a united front with new direction for moving forward.

We have decided that from now on when we come out here, we're only going to be talking about Victoria. It's creating a lot of controversy out there, like picking up my life, picking it Tara's life, It's constantly taking the story away from Victoria, and we can't be doing that. Even my blow-off on Friday, I apologize to Tara. I apologize to James for my actions and stuff like that, and I'll apologize to all of you guys. It was in front of your cameras in front of the community, the world, whatever.

We both apologize. I handled it wrong, but we both got to a point where there was too much, and it took a little bit of sitting down, thinking about it, and it's only the right thing. We have to be here together in order to do this. They also announced that they'd taken on a private investigator who offered to work the case pro bono alongside current police efforts. On May the 20th, 2009, 42 days after Tori went missing,

the police made an announcement of their own. They had arrested two suspects. both from Woodstock. The first was the woman named that Tara thought she'd recognized from the surveillance video just four days after Tori went missing. Her full name was Terry Lynn McClintick, and she was 19 years old. She was charged with child abduction. And the second suspect was 28-year-old Michael Thomas Rafferty,

who was charged with abduction and first-degree murder. The Ontario Provincial Police would not divulge details about what had happened and what the developments in the investigation were, saying that the matter was before the courts. They would also not comment on possible motives for the abduction. During court, witnesses said that they saw Michael Rafferty crying during his court appearance. He came out to the flash of cameras and shackles and with his shirt pulled over his head. Angry members of the public had gathered at the court. courthouse and yelled at the man to tell police where Tori was.

Tori's uncle was there as well and lashed out at the man calling him a quote, sick fuck, before being told to back off by police. The police announced they had considerable evidence to suggest Tori was murdered the same day that she was abducted. Tara and Rodney gave their first thoughts to the media. I said that I won't make any funeral preparations and it's not that I don't believe what's going on. I know what's going on, but I'm not going to be able to go through that twice. Are you talking about having a million feelings?

What are those feelings? Um, disgust, sadness, um, anger. There's a million. Every feeling that you can imagine, we felt. Sarah, at one time you throughout this whole thing, a lot of people got pointed at you, that much been, came out and you stood in part of these cameras every day, And you braved all that.

What do you say about that now? How did you manage to do all that? I did it for my daughter. I did it because every single day we came out to the media because we knew that they would post it in the newspapers. They would post it on the internet. They would post it on television. And that's why we did it.

And for the fingers that were pointed, I mean, I told everybody from the beginning that we had nothing to do with it. And we had nothing to do with it. Right now, They're saying they have enough evidence to verify the Victoria has passed. But I myself, as Victoria's father, refused to believe that until I actually see either remains of my daughter or my daughter's body. What has this been like for you?

What's, honestly, I can't answer that. It's too overwhelmed. Is there of days, months weeks? by spending a lot of time with my son and letting him know that everybody's still there for him and we love him. The city of Woodstock was again reeling with shock, feeling a profound sense of loss,

especially at the fact that both suspects were from their own city. There was always a prevailing thought that Woodstock was safe, but all that changed with this news. A lot of discussions centered around the lack of amber alerts, and the fact that many believed there wasn't an adequate early sense of urgency to find Tory. There were calls for abduction responses to be improved in cases where the criteria isn't met for an Amber alert. Meantime, the next focus for the police was obviously to find Tory. Ontario Provincial Police Detective Inspector Bill Renton said,

We won't stop until we can locate Victoria. I can't stress the importance and significance of returning her to her. her loved ones. The police continued to search. A helicopter was out again, focusing on an entire area north of Guelph, a city about an hour's drive northeast of Woodstock. A Toronto TV station helicopter followed it at a distance, noting that it appeared to be following the route of several major backcountry roads.

At one point, the pilot summoned ground units to search a particular spot, and a couple of officers searched the area with a sniffer dog, but eventually abandoned the site. The next day, police released a photograph of the suspect vehicle involved. It was the dark colored car, with a distinctive paint job and shiny rims on the original footage from the high school, but now they had the suspect, they had a clearer picture. It was a four-door 2003 Honda, blue with blotchy black spray paint over portions of the vehicle. Due to the car's distinctive look, they hope that someone may have recalled seeing that car the afternoon that Tory was abducted. The police made another appeal to be on the lookout for a discarded car seat.

It appeared that the Honda was missing the entire back seat. Within a few days, the media had reported that three car back seats had been found in the area, but none of them were the seat that police were looking for. Meanwhile, the search for Tori's remains continued. Lakes were searched, extensive ground searches were conducted of rural areas surrounding the city of Woodstock. For many of these searches, police were accompanied by Terry Lynn McClintick, the woman charged with the abduction of Tory. The community started to speculate that the pair were the new Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamolka, and hoped that the justice system had learned from their naivety in believing Carla's story. That naivety that would enable her to be living the Socomum life

in Quebec that she enjoys today. Many wondered about Terry Lynn. How complicit was she in the crime? Was she a willing participant or a compliant victim? Terry Lynn McClintick was born in Woodstock in 1990 to an adult dancer and an unknown father. Her mother didn't want to keep the baby girl and gave her away to her best friend and fellow dancer, Carol McClintick.

Carol suffered from alcoholism and drug addiction and had given birth to two biological children years earlier. In both cases, the province of Ontario had deemed her an unfit parent and child services were called to remove the children from her care. Both of her biological children, now a grown man and woman who prefer to remain anonymous, remembered that life with Carol McClintick was unstable at the best of times. Her son said, quote, You never knew what you would say that would set her off.

She drank and flew off the handle for little to no reason. Her daughter recalled that Carol had a lot of boyfriends and didn't stay in one place for a long period of time. Carol herself had been abused by her own alcoholic father, mentally, physically and sexually. Despite losing custody of her own children, 11 years later, Carol was able to adopt baby Terry Lynn. Worried friends and family said they contacted child services,

to tell them what was happening, but the authorities were said to have turned a deaf ear. For the first few years of Terry Lynn's life, Carol's husband Rob McClintick lived with the pair, although he wasn't around much as he worked long hours on the road as a long-distance truck driver. When Terry Lynn was two and a half years old,

Carol and Rob split, and according to Rob, once he and Carol split up, Carol disappeared with Terry. He last saw his adopt. a daughter when she was six or seven years old. The woman who raised the son that was taken off Carol said that Terry Lynn's childhood and Carol's custody

was wrought with all the same abuses that Carol herself had endured as a child. But it somehow flew under the radar of child services. The woman recalled a particularly awful boyfriend that Carol and Terry Lynn moved in with, calling him a monster. Carol would later admit that she'd found out that her daughter had been molested by one of her boyfriends when she was about four or five.

Carol also said she stopped it as soon as she found out, but Terry Lynn later said he wasn't the only one. Carol wasn't a good parent to Terry Lynn, and the little girl was left to her own devices most of the time with no good role model or boundaries to follow. As a young girl, Terry Lynn microwaved the family dog until it screamed. At the time, she lied and said the dog had been attacked by another animal. The dog was eventually put down for its injuries. The pair lived all over Ontario as Terry grew up, moving every couple of years. The moves meant that Terry would attend many schools. At school, she says she was bullied because her mom was an adult dancer. She missed many days of school around this time. By the time she had turned seven years old, children's aid began what became a long-running

interest in her life. At eight years old, she started using drugs, beginning with marijuana. She stopped going to school regularly around this time. When she was 11, Terry Lynn went into a foster home after reporting that her mother had been abusing her physically and verbally every day for the past two years. The following year, when Terry Lynn was 12, Carol was arrested for public intoxication after police saw Terry Lynn running away from her intoxicated mother. Even in youth detention, Terry Lynn was perpetually in trouble. She wrote entries in her diary in which she threatened those who had wronged her, venting about slaughtering someone and ripping out each bone. From age 12 to 17, she had been in and out of the detention center.

many times for numerous misdemeanors such as fighting. She was convicted of assault at least six times. In 2006, when she was 16, Terry Lynn was described as completely out of control. When she was dismissed from work, she got into an argument with Carol. She choked her mother with her left hand as she punched her in the face with her right. Carol suffered partial vision loss as a result. In a different incident, Terry Lynn was formally charged after punching her mother in the back of the head after the two got into a mutual confrontation.

Terry Lynn alleged that she punched her mother after Carol burned her with a cigarette. By now, Terry Lynn's drug abuse had graduated from marijuana to ecstasy, cocaine, morphine and oxycontin. By the time she met Michael Rafferty, she was living with her mother in a run-down triplex in Woodstock. She was looking for a job and injecting Oxycontin several times a day. Her life was completely out of control. The search for Tori continued, now into its 10th day. It had been expanded to include more lakes and areas near Canada's busiest highway, the 401. They conducted ground searches and scoured ditches, roadways and woodlocks.

Terry Lynn McClintick's charges were upgraded from being. an accessory to murder, and the abduction charge was upgraded to kidnapping with the intent of unlawful confinement. The police had told Tara MacDonald and Rodney Stafford to be prepared for the possibility that their daughter's body may never be recovered. Rodney said, quote, That's hard because without me actually seeing her in one form or another, I won't be able to lay it to rest. But another week went by with no news. So, on June the 6th, just shy of two months after Tori was abducted, a memorial service was held for her.

Hundreds gathered at Calvary Pentecostal Church to remember the little girl and celebrate her life. There were purple balloons. Tears flowed freely, as did laughter as people remembered Tori's infectious, cheeky personality. They spoke about how she loved ice cream and hated wearing socks. Here's Tori's parents. followed by Tori's aunt, who tells a story of one of her adorable pranks.

Just to hear her sweet voice just one more time to hold her in my arms. But I have so many memories to hold it to her my daughter will never be forgotten, not by me, not that anybody who had the sheer pleasure of getting to know. Eight, almost nine years have gone by since the day you were born, and that will be the first one to say it was truly an honor to have you in my life and be the one you called daddy. I just can't believe your God. I wake every morning in hopes of hearing that little voice of yours.

Thank you for every memory I was able to share with you, and please know that I feel comfort knowing that no matter what I do in life, you are with me. She was just as excited to see nature at its finest as she was to go shopping in Canada's biggest mall. I made sure that Victoria had extra money to spend, but I also made sure that she earned that money. Together we planted my garden

and Tori's official role was the water girl. Hence the second lesson learned, never trust Victoria with a garden hose. As the official controller of the water supplier, she accidentally sprayed me a couple of times. Right. I didn't believe it was an accident when it happened, and I still don't believe it was an accident as I stand here today.

One of the most heartbreaking testimonies came from Tori's older brother, Darren, who had turned 11 since she went missing. The two had been inseparable and were described as two peas in a pod. This was evident from the slideshow picture montage that played on the screen. Pictures of Darren as a toddler putting his cheek to Tara's pregnant belly, holding his newborn sister with such joy, and constantly being at her side as they grew up together.

As Darren spoke bravely, his voice broke. Quote, Today I'm realizing and understanding that Victoria is gone, since the day I was told I was in denial. But now I'm realizing, as I already said, that she's gone. Anyway, I'm here right now to say those four words. I love you, Tori. I miss you, and I mean, we miss you and always will. I miss seeing you every night.

Brave Darren couldn't speak anymore, so Tara, who was standing next to him with Rodney, took over. reading the words that Darren had carefully written. Quote, remembering the Tory who would lie in bed on mornings before preparing for school, walking her home, brushing our teeth side by side in the evening, kissing one another good night,

even the arguing. All I can do is think about you and think that I'm your brother, which means I'm supposed to protect you, but I guess that I didn't. Still, at the end of the day, I still can't say good night. I waited all day,

every day just sitting waiting for your safe return. I'll always love you and I'll remember to tell my kids about you. I'll see you in my dreams. I love you, your big brother, Darren. Many of the audience were by now sobbing out loud. Although many had told Darren over and over that what had happened to Tori wasn't his fault, it was clear that he blamed himself for leaving her to walk the other children home, just a few doors from the school. two children destroyed.

After the memorial service was over, the community had to go back to facing the stark reality that Tory had still not been found. The male suspect, Michael Rafferty, appeared in court via video link from the London Middlesex Detention Centre and looked on as the Crown provided some 300 gigabytes of electronic material

which formed the evidence against him. His lawyer, Hal Mazzis, asked for some time to review the files and said he had no plans to try and get the charges against Michael reduced. Not long after that, he was replaced by another lawyer, Scott Reed, who said that he intended to vigorously defend Michael and challenge the allegations.

So who was Michael Thomas Rafferty? He was born October the 26th, 1980, the youngest of three boys. He was reportedly originally from the Yukon, but lived in numerous towns across southern Ontario, including some years with an aunt and uncle and Drayton, a village about an hours drive north of Woodstock. He was in his teens when he moved away

and attended Alexander McKinsey High School in Richmond Hill, a suburb north of Toronto. After school, he lived near Queen Street West, a trendy neighbourhood in downtown Toronto. During this time, he studied cooking at Community College, and when he wasn't doing that, he partied hard, according to friends, who often saw him at bars with women. A friend from the time remembers that Michael was unemployed,

but managed to always dress in the latest fashion, noting that he was overly concerned with his looks and appearance. Sometime between 2002 and 2003, Michael moved to Guelph, and for a few months in the summer of 2003, he worked for a landscaping and snow. removal company and later a meat packing plant. He also bought his Honda, the car that would end up being a key focus in the search for Torrey Stafford. It was his prized possession, although it's not known how it came to be crudely spray-painted black in places. Despite the unusual appearance of the

exterior, he kept the interior immaculate and took it to car washes often. Around this time, he met a woman called Jennifer Wilstra, an aspiring veterinarian, and the two ended up living together. Jennifer wrote about their relationship online, which, by all accounts, sounded like that of any other young couple. Six months into their relationship, Jennifer declared that it was the best six months of her life. On Valentine's weekend in 2005, Michael surprised her with a trip to Toronto where they stayed at the Sheraton, went to the Mama Mia stage show and partied afterwards. He presented himself to her as a romantic, and Jennifer believed that's exactly what he was.

But she didn't know that Michael was a serial cheater. A friend of his said that, quote, He was always whining to me about how his girlfriend was going to leave him because he always fucked up. He was always cheating on her. She'd go home and he'd stay at the bar. The next day, he'd wonder why she was mad at. him. Jennifer and Michael broke up in September 2005, but he continued to live in Guelph.

Four months after this, electronic records would show that he used a file-sharing service to download child pornography. Michael was also addicted to drugs. He had a serious habit, taking several pills of Oxycontin every day, plus whatever else he could find. The next couple of years were a haze of brazen untruths and inconceivable womanizing. At one point, Michael's search history would reveal he searched for pain medication for genital herpes, severe genital herpes and images of people with genital herpes. Still living in Guelph, Michael was active on the online dating website called Plenty of Fish. He attended speed dating events and even registered on a Christian dating website.

there was a constant procession of new women in his life. There was Barbara Armstrong, a 44-year-old mother of two children who met him when they worked at a meat processing plant. They dated for a few months. During this time, he obtained another powerful prescription painkiller called Percocet from Barbara and began taking that. There was a 30-year-old medical secretary who he dated for five months. And then, there was 23-year-old.

Rachel Dewell, who he dated some time in 2007. She said they were inseparable, and for fun they used to drive in the countryside in his Honda. Quote, we never had a destination of where we were going. He just really liked to drive his car. Besides driving, they spent their time going to casinos and movies, walking trails, or pulling over on secluded roads to have sex in his car. In March 2008, Michael had split with Rachel, lost his job, and moved to Woodstock to live with his mother, Deborah Murphy, and her then-boyfriend David Riddell in the south end of town. The next month, David would move out, tired of watching Michael, quote, sponge off his mother. He saw Michael as a freeloader who spent his money on clothes and electronics

rather than helping to pay the bills. Neighbors didn't have a favourable impression of him either. Some remembered him sitting in the driveway in his car, blasting heavy metal, or speeding down the street. Others said he had a temper, fighting often with his mother. The pair also shared drug connections. His mother was taking painkillers for her back, and they often picked up pills for each other. That summer, 2008, Michael worked with his brother doing landscaping and other contract work in Oakville, one of the suburbs that forms the greater Toronto area.

He met another woman there and moved in with her for a short time. When their relationship ended, he moved back to Woodstock. Michael liked to spend his nights at Good Time Charlie's, a popular bar on the main street of Woodstock. Nearby neighbours said they knew when he was coming because they could hear the base pumping from his car stereo. The year was now 2009, and in just a few short months,

Torrey Stafford would be abducted. Between January and April of that year, Michael Rafferty downloaded more child pornography on his laptop. Also during this time, he met more than a dozen women on plenty of fish. Some he dated only briefly or slept with a couple of times. With others, he formed longer attachments, using his romantic charisma to promise a life together. His taste was eclectic,

Between 18 to 50 years old, professional, single mothers, short or tall. It seemed the only thing that mattered to Michael was how many he could date, and to what degree he could use them for money, accommodation, sex, drugs and whatever else they would offer up. All of these women believed him to be their exclusive boyfriend. One of them was a 23-year-old mother of five called Charity Spatzic. She was living in London, a city about 45 minutes drive southwest from Woodstock. Michael told her he was in school, taking dance courses and working in the home renovation business,

so she wasn't surprised that they saw each other only two or three times a week. She believed it was a normal relationship and that they were exclusive. But at some point in their relationship, they were discussing finances, and Michael talked her into getting into the escort business, saying that whatever money she earned would go to him. Charity agreed to do it, sending the money she earned straight into Michael's bank account. The two would continue their relationship at least up until the time that Tory Stafford was abducted. At the same time, Michael Rafferty was of course maintaining a relationship with several other women, one of them being Terry Lynn McClintick.

They met at a pizza shop in February 2009 and struck up a conversation. This is just two months before Tory was abducted. Michael called Terry Lynn a, quote, cute number, and then offered her a ride home. Terry Lynn accepted. They sat for a while chatting in the car, but instead of going into the house, Terry Lynn decided the date would continue into the night.

So, the couple went for a drive through Woodstock and nearby towns, obviously something Michael would have been more than happy to do. At some point, the conversation went to Oxycontin, despite their 10-year age difference it seemed they made a connection over the drug. Terry Lynn offered to get some for Michael. They had sex in the car. Michael wrote his number on a pizza box,

along with the name he preferred, Mike. Over the next few weeks, he would often show up at her place and she would give him more OxyContin because she seemed to have more connections to Woodstock's drug scene than he did. He simultaneously used her as a drug connection and romanced her. They would go to the movies and stay at nights and hotels.

He knew all the right things to say. Terry Lynn was in love, and like many of the other women Michael was involved with, believed that they were an exclusive couple. It would be a match made in hell. Three months had ticked over since Torrey Stafford was abducted, which also coincided with what would have been her ninth birthday. The search for her continued. But just over a week later, things changed.

On Sunday, July 19th, 2009, human remains were found beside a large rock pile in a wooded, isolated rural area near Mount Forest, a small town about an hour and a half's drive north of Woodstock. The police confirmed to Torrey's family that the remains were that of a young child. and two days later announced that dental records positively identified the remains as belonging to Tory Stafford. Tara McDonald and Rodney Stafford said in a note taped to the front door of Tara's house

that they were having a difficult time with the news and asked for privacy. The notes said when they wanted to speak to the media, they would reach out. Rodney added that they were planning a private funeral for their daughter. Meanwhile, the lawyer for Terry Lynn McClintick, Janine E. LaRoy, said that she wanted to make a plea bargain because her client assisted police in their investigation by providing clues for where the police should look for Tories' remains. At this point, the public didn't know much about what had actually happened,

and concerns were raised that this would end up being another deal with the devil, similar to the controversial deal that Carla Hamalka negotiated almost 15 years beforehand. The mayor of Woodstock at the time, Michael Harding, said that Torrey Stafford's story is a reminder to parents to keep a watchful eye on their children, but urged them not to be fearful moving forward. Quote, I know we're probably looking at our kids in a different light, but we cannot give our lives over to fear. This has caused us to maybe second guess if our kids are safe. In part two of the murder of Torrey Stafford I was like she's

Went from her, you're saying tear, tear, tell you're making it start, make him start three Five days you've held up here, okay, but you've been so brave Okay, and I appreciate that, right? I know that was hard for you to talk about, okay? But we need to put that last piece of the puzzle, okay? All right? We need to bring her home.

I know that, and that's why I have... That's why I've been here. Like, I thought, Tori was laughed at that spot. I put rocks over her. And how did he make you do these things? Like, what did he say to you? I said as far as he was, basically that was what it was at.

He said you're just as far as I am. This is your opportunity, Terry Lynn's sitting right here. Tell us she's a liar. You've got no problem at saying with her out or in the room. Terry's a liar. Yeah. I'm not even looking at her. I don't need to look at it.

Have you stopped for a second to think about all of the forensic evidence that has yet become in this investigation? Your lawyer will have to deal with that. How does your lawyer deal with your semen on an eight-year-old's body? I guess a lawyer would have to do with such things that they came up. What's that? I guess a lawyer would have to deal with such things that such things came up. Do you know how the legal system works, Mike? So now we're moving from Terry Lynn's line to now the police are trying to frame me

So the police are trying to frame me You're trying to implicate something you're trying to say something happened Well if I fake a video That you're going based on what some girl has told you Who's going to fake the video, Mike? Who's going to fake it? Maybe you didn't get what I said This is a huge story for them This is the next Paul Bernardo

Whether you like it or not A girl and a guy kidnapping an eight-year-old girl and murdering her. That's one of the most sensational things that have happened in this province since Bernardo and Carl. Who was telling the truth, what happened to Tori in her last few hours, and who was it that killed her? Stay tuned for part two.

Thanks for listening. If you liked this show and wanted to support it, you could tell a friend to listen or recommend my podcast. Thank you so much to everyone who is. left such amazing reviews on Apple Podcasts the last few weeks. The reviews helped me get more visibility on the charts, which then in turn attracts more listeners, so thank you. You can also follow me on social media and join my discussion group on Facebook.

We've been discussing Vincent Lee, Derek Siretsky and other Canadian cases. To find me on social media, just search for Canadian true crime. And lastly, you could pledge a couple of dollars at my Patreon site, and in return, you'll receive rewards like the early release of ad-free episodes, being in the know with episodes I have planned, and more. So a massive thanks to these latest patrons. Tracy, Julia, Maggie James, Annie, Sarah M., Joe, Carol C, Lindsay Ann, T.L.B., Donnie P., and Karen from the Stats, Shocking Traumas and Treatments Podcast.

It's awesome. You should check it out. And now for the podcast recommendations. As you may have seen, I've done something a little different this week. You heard my friend Jordan from the Nighttime Podcast at the beginning. I really hope you'll check out his show. He's doing some important work with helping to raise awareness to find some missing Canadians. The second podcast I wanted to tell you about is called Playlist.

It's not a true crime podcast, it's a really fun music discussion podcast, and I'm super excited to have been invited on as one of the guests. Joining me are a few other true crime podcast hosts that I've introduced you to, like Lainey from the True Crime Fan Club podcast, Charlie and Ellie from Insight, Nina from Already Gone, and Dina from Twisted Philly. A trailer has just been released which I'm going to play in just a second. So you should definitely subscribe to playlist now.

This episode of the Canadian, True Crime Podcast was researched and written by Dallas Attenborough and me with audio production and scoring by Eric Crosby. I'll be back soon with part two of this case. I'll see you soon. And don't forget to stay tuned for the Playlist Podcast promo, which will start in just a second. I'm Josh Hallmark, the host and producer of Our Americana and the Karen and Ellen Letters. And on August 23rd, I'll be bringing you a new show. Playlist brings together some of your favorite podcasters to share their favorite music. Each week, we have a new theme and a new roundtable of music curators. Together, we'll talk music. This song is completely meaningless.

It's basically about a guy who wants to get laid, but is kind of failing. They're like, you know, does anyone want like Gaga crossed with Katie Perry crossed with like a gutter? I kind of agree with everything that all of you had said, it's an adult love. And it's not something you hear in a lot of love songs. It's a different love. It's a difficult love. Get personal. I literally started crying because I was like, okay, I feel it now. I feel exactly how this song feels like he is my person, my puzzle piece, everything. And I never thought that that would happen for me that I would love somebody that deeply. And so that song means a lot to me. Yeah, I think I was missing, like, I was missing whatever gene, normal females get with the romance, because I was more likely to feel like that from like a nine-inch nail song.

I love this song ironically. Like, it's so cheesy. And it's like, I liked the video because it was porny and I was like 13. And there's like, you know, where else are you going to find it? La. She's like a hipster Sarah McLaughlin. That is something I wrote down while I was listening to it. Hipsur Sarah McLaughlin.

First and foremost, I'm very impressed, Stephen, that you've managed to out gay, the two gay guys tonight. I don't even know what that means. I mean, I grew up in Fort Conns, Colorado, and there. There's no, you know, there's no songs about four Collins, kind of heard of stuff. And if there, there probably shouldn't be. I'm not saying there should be. It's not that special.

Drink. I have a wine out of Cass Vineyards. This is a Paso-Robles, Rockin' One Red Blend. I've chosen it for the name, which I feel like is kind of self-explanatory. Argue. Sorry, 1996, I graduated. Don't laugh, guys. I see you.

laughing, Stevens. No, I'm laughing because I'm like, she's going to hate me and Tawny. Well, I was 99, so Christy you would have at least been in high school together. In 1999, I was in the third grade.

Oh, go fuck yourself, Steven. Tottie, I feel like we've just met. We're off to a really good start. I wrote notes, and what I wrote is not so much notes as it is a rant. So I'm just going to read verbatim what I wrote and

apologize in advance and probably when I'm done. What I'm about to say is going to make me sound like a giant dick. So when you said earlier that you were very scared about telling somebody didn't like their song, you were talking about me. Is that right, Stephen? Just this one. Stephen. I've known Jason for 10 years, and I can

tell you he's coming for you. I'm so afraid. Okay, because here's the thing. There's no reason not to come for me. There, I said it. Yeah, deal with it. Oh, my God. I don't know what was just said, because I don't know what any of it means.

It's fighting word, Stephen, and dance. I dance constantly, just not at a place where dancing is appropriate. I mean, if James Brown tells you to get up off your butt, you better freaking do it, okay? This week's theme is Love Song, the songs that make us swoon the most. This week's theme is high school never ends, the songs that take us back to our high school days. This week, hometown glory. Our favorite songs about the places we've lived. This week's theme is Pretty Good Year, our favorite songs so far from 2017.

This week's theme is Dancing in the Dark, the songs that never fail to get us on our feet. And tonight I'm playing music with Katie Ward. I'm host of The Enthusiasm Enthusiast. I'm Charlie. I am a host at Insight. Stephen Pappas, host of Is This Adult. I'm Chris Brayton, and I'm the co-host of the More Gooder Than podcast. Christy Lee from the Canadian True Crime Podcast.

I'm Hannah. I co-host, Film Rose. And I'm Paul Chomo. I am one half of the Farman's podcast. And I'm Lainey Hobbs, the host of the True Crime Fan Club podcast. Iris, I don't know, Iris. Iris, by the Goo Goo Dolls? Oh, oh, okay.

No, no, no, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, okay. We're all cut up. Josh, I'm sorry that you were aghast.

I apologize, but now I'm on, I'm on the right page with everybody. I'll see myself out. Hey, guys, I'll see you later. I'll see you later. I'll just show myself out.