Chainsaw History - Part Two: Matthew Hale's Twisted Views on Women, Witchcraft, & Abortion

Episode Date: March 8, 2023

{ Visit ChainsawHistory.com see full show notes and research links, get access to our full back catalog, check out our bonus content, and support the show with a paid subscription! }In Part Two we learn that Sir Matthew Hale had two women executed for witchcraft after a trial so famous it served as a model for Salem. And for our final surprise we learn that, despite Hale’s horrible legal opinions about the rights of women, he specifically writes that abortion is not a crime in English common law. Once we follow the footnotes anyone can see that Justice Alito lied about Hale’s position.CW: In this episode we discuss challenging topics including sexual violence and abortion.In this episode recommend people donate to RAINN to help victims of sexual violence or help out at a local domestic violence shelter. We also express support and solidarity with the Atlanta Forest Defenders and encourage you to learn more and help stop Cop City.Mentioned in this episode:Stop Cop City!The destruction of our forests and the militarization of our police is an issue of national concern. Please visit DefendTheAtlantaForest.org to learn more and stand in solidarity with the movement to defend the Weelaunee Forest in Atlanta.

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In partnership with the Office of Minority Health and Health Resources and Services Administration. Name the thing that I shouldn't be angry about right now. We're running into people at the grocery store. I fucking hate it. Here's the thing that I will confess now, and if this is you, listener, I'm really sorry. This has happened to me more than once since the last year where I'll go into Kroger or Walmart or whatever.

Usually it's Kroger. I run into someone who's face lights up and they're like, Jamie, and they run over and hug me. I do sort of recognize them. They're familiar in some way. They come and talk to me and I bullshit my way through a conversation. How you do and do some vague stuff, my family. Go through an entire five-minute interaction with multiple hugs.

They leave and have no fucking clue who's supposed to be. I do that all the time and you have to understand it's really weird because even though I'm known in the community, I can still go incognito. My husband knows everyone. We go out of state and there'll be some random person who's like ... See, I'm the opposite. We do that and it's someone who recognizes me. Oh, it's awful.

It's the worst thing in the world. It's the worst thing in the world. It's the restaurant in the middle of nowhere, Texas, just on the way to somewhere else. It's the way like, Jamie, and she's like, you got to be fucking kidding me. And remembering people for the most part is not my strong suit. I'm like, hey, you, it's you. Speaking of remembering people, do you remember who we talked about last week? Unfortunately.

Yes. A certain judge named Matt. Yeah. Matt and his dead dad, Bob. Oh yeah. Dead dad Bob, now very dead Matt as well here in 2023. So here we are. Part two of our deep dive into a dead British judge from the 1600s, who for some reason

as someone we're supposed to give a shit about when determining rights for human beings in the year 2023. But this is Chainsaw History. Welcome to the podcast where we take a jurist who is venerated in American law schools and give him the same respect a baby gives a diaper. I want to take a shit on him. We're going to be doing some of that. So I'm your host, Jamie Chambers, and this is my sister, Bambi.

Hello. We are a weekly comedy podcast. I am not a historian, just a guy who's been Googling obscure Latin phrases like way too much to be healthy at all. And I'm a girl who's been forced to listen to Jamie the entirety of my life. So it's kind of almost nice to have purpose in it because normally it's just me listening to your ranting and raving just in my kitchen and for no reason. Now for more ranting and raving, go to chainsawhistory.com where you can check out past episodes.

You can get bonus content, see bonus articles, and extra cool stuff coming your way. There's subscriptions where you can use to directly support what we're doing, and if we get enough of those, we'll be doing more stuff. Before we get going again, I would once again want to put out a content warning. We do usually talk about rough topics on this show, but everyone should know going in we're going to be discussing topics including sexual violence and abortion. So if that's not your thing, it's cool to skip until next week and we'll have... Technically, it shouldn't be anyone's thing.

Well, yeah. But if it's... It's especially triggering. Yeah. If it's especially a problem for you and it's just not something you want to hear, no problem. So if you want to get the entire life story of Sir Matthew Hale, an uptight weirdo who died in regret... Don't.

Why would you do that? Because we need the clicks and the listens. You can go back and listen to part one before catching up with us here. But if you don't want to do that, the quick recap is that Matthew Hale was cited more than half a dozen times in the majority opinion of the United States Supreme Court case last year that overturned Roe v. Wade and threw away 50 years of civil rights for half the population. So we looked at the life of Sir Matthew Hale, this guy who was cited by Justice Alito.

And we discovered that as a person, he just was an uptight kind of piece of shit. He sucked. You wouldn't want to hang out with this guy. He was no fun at all. He was an orphan raised to be a Puritan pastor who instead pivoted to become the biggest nerd and kiss-ass in law school. He was a workaholic and a preyaholic, an absolute weirdo even by the standards of his day. Hale went on to become the chief, royally appointed judge in the final years of his life, writing

tomes that are cited in American legal cases up to this very day. His influence on our lives is honestly jaw-dropping, like I just told what we covered before. And then he got totally, horribly and totally sick and told everyone who could listen that people should retire young so they can just pray and read the Bible all day. So really what he wanted were term limits? Yeah. For judicial term limits. I'm for judicial term limits as a principle.

I wouldn't have, for example, life. It would be, in fact, the only one of his opinions that I would say is still relevant or we should give a shit about. You might say that Matthew Hale advocated for, you know, for not having lifetime Supreme Court justices. I also would hate that. I hate this plan. He essentially was one and literally got horribly sick and died shortly after and never got

to just enjoy any part of his life ever because all he did is work and pray. So. And that's what you get, Dick? And then we covered, we began, or rather we began to talk about Hale's writings and rulings on legal matters and that's the first one we started with was the crime of rape and to sum up real quick, to his credit he considered rape a serious crime and his prescribed punishment ended with a rapist kicking at the end of a rope. But to his discredit, and there was a lot of it, he did not consider the ward of a woman

to be trusted over that of a man and until all too recently there was a standard mandatory warning given to juries in rape cases that instructed them to use any excuse to discredit a rape victim. He didn't think spousal rape was a thing because he believed that a man obtained permanent sexual consent that cannot be withdrawn the moment his wife said, I do. So he's like. I hate this guy so much. So that's why, that's why it wasn't until 1993 that what got scrubbed from our entire

country. So, like we said, our boy Matt saw the entire world through this bizarre blend of obsession with both the law and his fundamentalist religious belief. The fact that we're listening to him at all is just madness. I mean not just because he's been dead for hundreds of years in another country, but because one of Hale's most sacred legal tenants was that the authority of law and the courts could only exist under the authority of a king. This asshole died before America.

Before America was a thing at all. We should not listen to before America people. So he believed in the authority came from the king specifically because said King received his authority from God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. But we here in America gave that entire idea the finger. Yeah, along with the idea of kings and nobles. And all of it. All of it.

So in other words, if you're listening to Hale on this, why would you why would his legal opinions matter? Because literally his entire foundation was based on the idea of divinely appointed justice and that's ridiculous. So seriously, we cannot overstate how this dork's uber Christian worldview influenced everything, including how he tried cases that were religious crimes. So remember, this was Matt. He was a full supporter of the Church of England.

He was a royally appointed judge. So that meant to him religious crimes and secular crime was all the same thing. And because the authority all came from God anyway and through the king and he's a royally appointed judge, religious crimes and other kinds of crimes, there was no difference. And they'll be tried the same way and punished. But you ready? You ready to talk about some motherfucking witches? Fuck Puritans.

Let's get into Puritans. Over here in this continent, you might have heard of a little disagreement that took place in Salem, Massachusetts back in 1692. I actually know a lot about this particular subject. I watched a documentary recently. Well, here's the thing. We're not talking about Salem, but there's a connection. The Salem witch trials had more than 200 people accused, 14 women and five men hanged.

And one dude crushed between and beneath stones because he wouldn't enter a plea at all. Well, the interesting thing about that was under the law, you had to confess to the crime, but you also had to accuse two other people. So as long as you did those two things, you were let go. So hundreds of people were actually accused of witchcraft. Only 19 were executed and only because those 19 people refused to confess to a crime. And there were a couple of dogs too that got hanged. And I don't even think that, and I know there was, I think there was a black slave that

was also executed, but she was not. I don't think she's considered one of the 19. Right. Because of. Her status. 00:10:15,860 --> 00:10:19,860 Well, yeah, the Salem witch trials is one of the few pieces of colonial American history that any of us pay attention to in school because it's like this religious moral panic

and also everybody's forced to read The Crucible by Arthur Miller. So the following quote is from the book Narratives of the Witchcraft Cases edited by George Lincoln Burr published in 1914. So this is like a collection of primary source documents related to the witchcraft trials of New England during the 17th century. So this is like trial records, letters, other documents, like, like so that way there's one collection of all this primary source stuff so you can research these cases. So this is all from Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire quote, I observed in the prosecution

of these affairs that there were in the justices, just judges and the others considered a conscientious endeavor to do the thing that was right. And to that end, they consulted the precedents of former times and precepts laid down by learned writers about witchcraft. As Keeble on the common law chapter, conjuration, also Sir Matthew Hale's Trial of Witches printed anonymously 1682 unquote. Oh, yeah. Fuck this guy.

So hard. So hard. Matt had been dead for over 15 years and he was still helping with state executions in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Because you know how Jesus was all about condemning people to death. The judges and justices overseeing the Salem witch trials heavily consulted this, what it says, I wrote it in my book, but technically it's a pamphlet, it was about 66 pages long, 66.

I don't think that was a coincidence. That's once again, this book is actually fucking awesome and you're about to find out why. Why this was like a best seller. So in a little of its title is called Trial of Witches with a Y instead of an I. It's just the whole thing. This is the part where it gets a little fun sort of sort of. So once again, so the Salem witch trials were like, well, we got to, when they were like, well, we got to try some witches.

How do we do that? They start looking at the precedents and there's this best seller that tells them exactly how to do it filled with all this gripping drama. So as someone who has recently freshened your brain with some Salem witch trials, you will see some incredible parallels here because they were literally copying the notes of Sir Matthew Hale doing what he did way back when he was Lord Chief Baron. The judge in the witch trials too was a real piece of shit. He was a super piece of shit who was like, even at the end, a lot of people were like,

they had remorse, they had guilt and he was one of those ones who was like, no, I did what I did and I'm glad what I did and fuck those guys. Because he was a piece of shit to the very end. He had no regret. I sent witches burning back to Satan. And I'm pretty sure we could find that guy's fucking gravies, aliens spit on it too. So in a trial of witches, how was a witch identified legally speaking? So the appendix of this book and the appendix, all of the appendices are all stuff from later

editions. This is like, this part's from like the 1800s after witch trials were no longer a thing and they're actually kind of, the appendices are kind of judging the earlier part of the book harshly. So it says, a witch, according to old descriptions, was generally blessed with a wrinkled face, a furred brow, a hairy lip, a gobbler tooth, a squint eye, a squeaking voice, a scolding tongue, a ragged coat on her back, a skull cap on her head, a spindle in her hand, and a dog or cat by her side.

And Lord Coke pithily describes a witch to be a person that hath conference with a devil to consult with him or to do some act. So it's just some old lady, some old gnarly lady, some weird looking old lady. Well, I mean, people in that time, you know, you get old, you lose your teeth, you get all gnarled. Bent up and all fucked up, tripled and fucked up looking and guess what, guess what assholes. The pox has run through your village a few times. Older women, we just grow hair on our face, we just pluck it.

So another section is equally helpful in identifying witches. John Bell, minister of the gospel at Gladzmer or something that I can't pronounce, says providentially two tests appear to discover the crime. If the witch cries out, Lord have mercy on me, when apprehended, and the inability of shedding tears, because as a witch could only shed three tears. And those with her left eye, her stock was quickly exhausted, and that was more striking as King James I shrewdly observes, since other women in general are like the crocodile ready to weep upon every slight occasion.

Oh, unquot. So there's, you know, we, you know, women, women who cry all the time, crying all the time, but a witch will only, only has three tears to shed only out of her left eye. So if a woman only cries, not at all, or only a little bit, that's one sign of witchcraft right there. Because a real woman is just a sobbing mess every time, you know how women be. Oh my God. Are we going to talk about the third nipple yet?

Let's please talk about the third nipple. We're getting there. King James, just referenced there, had not helped things with his obsession with witchcraft. He published his book, Demonology, and in his literal first year of reign, as the recognized King of England, he prescribed and passed the first official statute that made witchcraft a crime punishable by death, I believe that was the year 1604. So literally right as Matthew Hale is about to enter the scene, King James, the guy he hated, has put down this anti-witchcraft deal.

So in 1662, two old ladies in Barry St. Edmunds were indicted for bewitching multiple people from their town, including children. Three of the alleged victims in the case fell into strange and violent fits in court and couldn't bring themselves to speak. So every time these kids are brought into the court and see the quote unquote witches, they would flail and have their seizures and do these crazy things and could not be brought to speak. So these charges were brought by a local wealthy fish merchant who believed his daughters were

suffering from witchcraft. And here's where this little speculation of Jamie, all these hundreds of years later. Was it a land grab? So well, here's the thing. Think about the fact that the initial charges were laid down by this fish dude. Here where the fish and the sale of fish and the transportation of fish seem to come into the testimony of this shit a lot. And also...

I don't know if fish should have testimony. You said testimony of fish. Fish testimony. No, it's just like fish merchants and people hauling fish and people in the fish. You'll see what I'm talking about. But anyway, so this rich fish, this fish godfather in town is the one who lays these charges. And then a bunch of the testimonies, people are like, oh yeah, this such and such happened a few years ago.

So the timeline's really hard. When you're reading this book, it's kind of hard to follow when certain things happen. So just kind of keeping the back of your mind that when this one dude named Pacey enters these initial charges, suddenly he rounds up all these, all these witnesses and some of them are from years before. So it's like, oh yeah, 10 years ago, such and such happened. So that's just one thing to keep in your mind. I want you to imagine playing like the Phoenix Wright version of this trial and how many

times you hit the objection button because holy shit, we're about to get into it. The first deposition mentioned in the case is all about boobs, or rather breastfeeding. It's third nipples. No, we haven't got to the third nipple yet, but don't worry. We'll get there. We'll get there. It's there. This is actually about just regular breasts.

So according to the sworn testimony, a woman named Dorothy Durant asked her neighbor who was an elderly woman named Amy Dunney to babysit her infant for a penny. And she had only one important instruction. So Dorothy's asking old Amy to babysit. Here's some, here's a penny, but you got to do this one thing quote, Dorothy Durant desired the said Amy not to suckle her child and laid a great charge upon her not to do it. Upon when it, which she was asked by the court, why did she give that direction? She being an old woman and not capable of giving suck.

It was answered by the said Dorothy Durant that she knew very well that she did not give suck, but that for some years before she had gone under the reputation of a witch, which was one cause for her to give the caution. Another was that it was customary with an old woman that if they did look after a sucking child and nothing would please it but the breast, they did use to please the child to give it the breast. And it did please the child, but it sucked nothing but wind, which did the child hurt unquote.

So she's basically saying. Yeah. Yeah. She's saying, I want to make my baby gassy plus, plus some people will say you're like a witchy wait woman. I don't want you putting your wrinkly old tit in the baby's mouth. So that's her only rule. I mean, now granted, I do think that it's like, yeah, I mean, that seems, seems like

a reasonable request. Like here, just watch my kid, don't put your, don't put your tit in her mouth. So old Amy ignored the mother's wishes and put the baby up to her wrinkled old breast presumably filled the sawdust when Dorothy found out. So she comes back and she comes up and her baby is going to be all gassy and she finds out she comes out. So, so, so she just yells at her and then Amy did not take this lightly quote Amy used many high expressions and threatening speeches towards her, telling her that she had as good

to have done otherwise and to have found fault with her and so departed out of her house unquote. That night, the baby grew sick and seems to have experienced seizures and this affliction lasted for weeks. The baby's not doing great, but Dorothy visited a man referred to as Dr. Jacob, who told Dorothy to hang the child's blanket next to the hearth and then search for anything that might be hiding in the child's bed quote. Oh, this sounds like some some real good doctor.

Here's what you do if you want to see what's wrong with your kid. You get a blanket. You hang the you hang the the comforter up by the fire then you root around the blanket anything you find you got to look for it. So from this is quoting again from trial of witches quote from the blankets there fell out of the same a great toad which ran up and down the hearth and she having a young youth only with her in the house desired him to catch the toad and throw it into the fire which the youth did accordingly and held it there with tongs and soon there was in the

fire it made a great and horrible noise and after a space there was a flashing in the fire like gunpowder making a noise like the discharge of a pistol and thereupon the toad was no more seen nor heard. Okay, so they murdered a frog. So the toad didn't burn it vanished back to hell like literally like this thing literally so your toad just explodes in her in her fireplace. Yeah, this sounds like some bullshit or the doctor the doctor's prescription and the cure and the cure then so here's this is when it gets really interesting.

The next day Amy Dunney's niece came to visit her aunt and found the old lady quote in a most lamentable condition having her face all scorched with fire and that she was sitting alone in her house in her smock without any fire unquote. So Amy's all fucked up and burned up to the toad exploded coincidence word got back to the pissed off mother door probably so Dorothy finds out about Amy's burn and she wants to go check it out herself and so seeing the woman all burned Dorothy asked what happened quote Amy replied that she might thank her for it. Amy replied that she might thank her for it as in Dorothy for that this opponent meaning

Dorothy was the cause there of the burns that she but that she should live to see some of her children dead and she upon crutches so she's like I'm the reason you're the reason I'm all burned up bitch one of your kids is gonna die and you're gonna be limping around on crutches they'll say that's what Amy had to say so the baby meanwhile fully recovered after the exploding toad incident that was the killer Dr. Jacob was right on the money about how to cure this kid but Amy's prophecy began to take effect on March 6th when Dorothy's 10 year old daughter Elizabeth began to experience the same symptoms of as her baby brother had before okay so it couldn't have been like a communicable disease it's been a disease

that the baby a better problem than her sister contract whatever it was that's like a flu or whatever no it's this is the curse of Amy Dunny okay dope alright when Dorothy returned from the apothecary with medicine for her child she found Amy Dunny sitting in her home again explaining she'd come to visit the child and bring her water this old bitty really just needs to leave this family alone guess what time it is what time it is it's ad time now in November come the longer evenings when folks drop in the plate bridge or stop for a snack after the movies so get the refrigerator stock with Kraft's famous cheese food Val Vita to spread or slice for swell toasted sandwiches Val Vita is a natural for late evening snacks

you know because it's digestible as milk itself these days you really ought to be buying rich gold and Val Vita in the two pound size so you'll have plenty for snacks and also to melt for economical meatless main dishes remember smooth melting Val Vita helps supply the protein you expect from a main dish but the price is low tomorrow get crafts famous Val Vita and we're back and we're continuing this old lady named Amy Dunny tormenting this family according to the first zero reason here's the other thing to remember too it's so easy to like envision this all to see but what this is is all a woman on a witness stand telling

this story it sounds like a bunch of bullshittery to me that's always the lens to remember it from but you like or but just for fun we can imagine this is all real and how it really happened fucking old old lady so she returns home to her sick child she's got some medicine and Amy Dunny's like I came here to visit her and bring her water as you might imagine Dorothy who's already thrown this little lady out of her house once did not take kindly to this visit and threw her out of her home quote and this is Amy Dunny speaking you need not be so angry for your child will not live long and this was on a Saturday and the child died on the Monday following the cause of whose death this deponent Dorothy verily

believed that was occasioned by the witchcraft of the said Amy Dunny for that which said Amy hath been long reputed to be a witch and a person of very evil behavior whose kindred and relations have been many of them accused for witchcraft and some of them have been condemned unquote yeah that sounds like a bunch of bunch of bullshit so not long after the death of her daughter Elizabeth did die Dorothy Durant claimed she became lame in both of her legs from the knee down forcing her to walk on crutches okay and that couldn't just be hypochondria or well let you be the judge of this when I tell you this next part all right I'm buckling in and by a great miracle when Amy Dunny was pronounced guilty Dorothy

found herself fully healed with full use of her limbs she threw her crutches aside is like praise Jesus I'm healed Amy this was even before the execution just after the guilty verdict there's no fuckery at all there no crutches no problem all right the next victims listed in the case were Elizabeth and Deborah Pacey now this the Pacey family is where the actual accusations came from that brought them to court everyone else or witnesses brought him to support what this the father of the Pacey family who brought the charges were so Elizabeth and Deborah Pacey were two little girls aged 11 and 9 Elizabeth Pacey was was brought to court when all that when the trial was going on but unable to speak or move little

Deborah was too sick to travel to court at the end and all her parents feared she would die because some of the names are similar it becomes confusing so I'll try to keep everybody straight okay so about when talking about Elizabeth Pacey we're talking about the nine year old okay quote Amy Dunny was privately brought to Elizabeth Pacey and she touched her hand whereupon the child without so much as seeing her for her eyes were closed all the while suddenly leaped up and catched Amy Dunny by the hand and afterwards by the face and with her nails scratched her till blood came and would by no means leave her until she was taken from her and afterwards the child would still be pressing towards her and making signs

of anger conceived against her unquote so when they brought so this little kid just like laying there and they bring Amy Dunny to go touch this like catatonic kids hand so the kids like and comes flying at her trying to scratch they're like she's like see this is freaking the kid out which or the kids could have just had a fever okay we'll see how you judge the situation by the time we get to the very end it's like and that's best case scenario that it's not just all right fucker being super charitable all right okay we're now we're gonna jump back in time so this was the scene in court the little kid gets touched by the witch and and she freaks out so now we're gonna go back in time to win it all began for the Pacey family so

according to the testimony of the father Samuel the guy who brought the charges and is the rich dude Debra the nine-year-old lost the use of her legs on October 10th 1662 and this like before any witches enter the story this something happened to this kid where she couldn't walk and so she would just literally be asked to be carried to different places around the house so this time of day the poor kid it asked to be sent to where she could look out onto the ocean and so just sitting there when Amy Dunny stops by the house to purchase herring so like the like the salted little bitty is there to get to get some fish she stops by and she was told to go away three times so Amy Dunny comes by I want some fish a fuck off you old broad and then she comes back so

after the third rejection Amy began grumbling under her breath as she's walked away quote but at the very same instant of time the said child was taken with most violent fits feeling the most extreme pain in her stomach like the pricking of pins and the shrieking in a most dreadful manner like unto a welp and not unto a sensible creature unquote so the moment Amy Dunny goes away for the third time complaining under her breath the kid has seizures and shit a nearby doctor could not determine the cause for Debra's symptoms that was when they began to suspect the true cause was the witchcraft of Amy Dunny and not possible like epilepsy or something soon their older daughter Elizabeth also fell ill with the same symptoms again possible communicable disease the

parents also had this to say quote and further the said children being grievously afflicted would severly complain in their extremity and also in intervals that Amy Dunny together with one other woman whose person and clothes they described thus did afflict them and their apparitions appearing before them to their great terror and a frightment and sometimes they would cry out saying there stands Amy Dunny and their Rose Cullander the other person troubling them unquote so meet Rose the second witch that is now in righteous judge Hale's crosshairs she first appears as a phantom just she's the apparition of Rose Cullander more on her in a bit the girls fits would cause them to lose use of one entire side of their bodies and it wasn't always the same side sometimes they were

so sensitive they would scream from a gentle touch then their bodies would be fine but they would go deaf blind or lose the ability to speak sometimes they would go a few days in perfect health and other times they would have up to five fits a day at the end of which they would cough up pins P like P. I. N. S. as in pins and needles and one girl one time coughed up a two penny nail with a broad head oh yeah this sounds like a bunch of bullshit bring it up see from the hardware store and was later the pins in this nail were later produced in the court as evidence of Satan's involvement I love the say so of like some random-ass dude to do she was coughing up pins she must be a witch like this is the shit I grabbed it in my barn before I set up in court

this is the stuff my daughter coughed up so Sam stayed with his daughters for two months and during this time he'd demand they read passages from the New Testament but before they could pronounce the names of Lord Jesus or Christ another fit would start up they would be like and are they couldn't say you know the names of God in any of his forms but and then they would start with the coughing up pins and all that but when they came across the names Satan or devil they would clap their fingers on the book and say this bites but it makes me speak right well quote the father swore his daughters could see Amy Dunny and Rose Cullander in their fits who that threatened to torment them 10 times as much if they complained okay and um he knows this out well he's he's

obviously he's testifying to her in a court of law and he's rich huh that changes everything quote in their fits they would cry out there stands Amy Dunny or Rose Cullander and sometimes in one place and sometimes in another running with great violence to the place where they fancied them to stand striking at them if present they would appear to them sometimes spinning sometimes reeling or in other postures to writing or threatening them unquote so the little girls are running around swatting at the air saying there they are there they are nope she's over there now playing ghost whack-a-mole this must have been so hilarious for these kids if for I mean best-case scenario they're fucking with their dad and worst-case scenario they're just being

complacent or they're doing what they're doing exactly what their dad said they're told yeah you know this is they'll be up to you and the listeners to judge by the time we get to the end of all this this madness so the girls witness little beasts running around the house that looked like mice but no one else ever saw a girl claims she grabbed one with fireplace tongs and threw it into the fire where it screeched like a rat as it burned another time a bug that looked like a bee tried to fly in a little Debra's mouth which caused her to run inside and then she fell into another one of her seizures and at the end of which that's where the two-penny nail came oh okay and she explained that the bee tried to force the nail down her throat oh you know

bee bees are sent by Amy and Rose you know Satan's bee bees so known for their ability to carry shit as Nicholas Cage said not the bees were you just bees they're everywhere so apparently they're fucking trying to shove nails down your throat that's that's pretty hardcore that's a different kind of killer bee I guess African bees it turned out that the English bees were way scarier now that would then insert your joke about is this an African beer European bee it's just a weather measure of weight ratios how could the nail be carried another time one of the girls claimed that a swarm of flies all carry little pins flies also known for their amazing carry carrying capacity and how they carry little needles around this is where we get into the nature of

the so-called evidence the language in trial of witches is old and stilted and it sometimes buries important information about the source of like who the person being deposed is who testified to things and presents a lot of evidence as fact without really saying who was around to witness things but many times it does say like the deponent said this you to kind of like diagram the sentences and making mental gymnastics but it's like oh so here's a good example that's a little easier to decipher this sort of thing because there's a lot of hearsay like shit that would never be well yeah that's nothing but hearsay all of it's here so example quote at another time the said elder child declared unto a woman named Margaret Arnold and sitting by

the fire suddenly started up and said she saw mouse one of those beast mice and she crept under the table looking after it and at length she put something in her apron saying she had caught it and immediately she ran to the fire and threw it in and there it did appear to this deponent person being deposed this Margaret lady and there did appear upon it to this deponent like the flashing of gunpowder though she confessed she saw nothing in the child's hands unquote so she's the little girl's like I see it I see it grab something and then and then throws something in the fire and it explodes just like gunpowder and she says she never actually saw the mouse just the explosion in the on the whole antics this was accepted as testimony towards guilt yeah

because again this fuckery just would not exist and even though and Matthew Hale is kind of invisible in this text but remember he's the judge overseeing this whole fucking thing rolling on the objections and and making determinations about what kind of evidence is and is not allowed so anything that is allowed is because Matt thinks it's fine it's fine to have this kind of bullshit so we have little girls having weird fits acting out barfing up little pieces of metal and these are those are the only things actually witnessed by like the adults everything else is stories and claims from the girls with no other direct witnesses like daddy blah blah what happened so far all of it is daddy all and all of this happened and because none of the kids are testifying because oh we just

can't because they had they go into seizures every time they're in court with these evil witches there's like oh we can't do it sorry 318 years later the satanic panic began in the 1980s that echoes a lot of this shit oh god like religious satanic panic another thing i know a bit about yeah i mean religious hysteria built off the testimony of little kids saying ridiculous things like exploding demon mice or toilets that flush you down into satan's basement you know it's i was flushed down satan's toilet maybe don't ask the little children leading questions and give them approval by saying but i'm saying oh yeah i mean they will run with it not to mention adults will put words in children's mouths and that even the memory of adults is easily fucked with

yeah fallible so that's all of that but even then even then this is ridiculous even 350 years ago this is like sensible people will be like wait a second oh well yeah i mean you know so it's the california preschool trial yeah this is this own version of it except this is these two weird old ladies in town being persecuted by a fishmonger so the girls claim that amy dunny and rose colander tormented them night and day dared them to drown themselves cut their own throats or otherwise destroy themselves when having fits they would scream out rose colander and amy dunny why do you not come yourselves but send your imps to torment us unquote remember the durant family from the very first accusation devra was the pissed off mom so uh this is another relative

edmund durant testified that rose colander visited his house to buy herring sound familiar and when the old crone was turned away his daughter ann fell ill with stomach pains and pinprick sensations on her skin she then fell into swooning fits and when she woke up she swore she had seen the apparition of rose colander who threatened to torment her young ann was present in court but unable to speak and would experience violence fits it brought into the presence of old rose so the accused couldn't face her accuser which is and the testimony couldn't be given so so instead they just took the hearsay evidence from the parents so the parents were the only ones who testified in this case a mother named diana bookings swore that her daughter jane was

too weak to travel to court but testified the girl was afflicted with swooning fits and stomach pains in february the child would eat very little food and would vomit up crooked pins other times they would find pins in the child's hands jane would go mute for days at a time and when the episode finally passed she told her mother that amy dunny would not suffer her to speak the pins in a nail from jane booking were also entered into evidence oh my god yeah this the pins that i found right that literally in the hands just held in the hand of her daughter who isn't there to even talk about it but that's evidence of this these women being in league with satan and afflicting all of these poor girls and again it could just be some it's either complete bullshit

or it's like some of these kids had some kind of fucking like flu these kids were sick another girl named susan chambler was said to be working in the town of laystaff this is the the town where all this was supposedly going on when she was visited by rose cullander who frightened her so badly she ran home to her mother mary so literally she just sees the scary old lady oh my god runs home that night susan fell into violent fits and screamed out the name of rose cullander swearing she could see the chrome sitting on her bed sometimes with an enormous dog by her side seeing rose cullander sitting there with a dog next to her in the bed the phantom presumably so susan vomited up pins like everyone else and sometimes she would lose her eyesight or power of speech according to her

mother who testified on her behalf not bringing the kid to court blah blah blah it was at this point in the timeline that this is when samuel paisley formally accused the old women of bewitching his daughters and then a warrant was granted to drag amy and rose in front of sir edmund bacon who was the authority in that area they confessed nothing quoting again from a trial of witches quote he gave order that they should be searched whereupon this deponent this is uh mary chandler with five others were appointed to do the same and coming to the house of rose cullander they did acquaint her with what they were come about and asked whether she would consented by which they should search her she did not oppose it whereupon they began at her head and so stripped her naked and in the lower

part of her belly they found a thing like a teat an inch long they questioned her about it and she said that she had gotten a strain by carrying water which caused that extra sense but upon narrower search they found her in her privy parts three more extra senses or teats but smaller than the former this deponent further said that in the long teat at the end thereof there was a little hole and it appeared unto them as if it had been lately sucked and upon the straining of it there was issued out a white milky matter unquote uh you see that she is nursing her evil familiar or she's just gonna have sores yeah she's got this horrible growth that's oozing pus and yeah uh this poor old ladies and strip naked and humiliated and they're like you know all of her bumps and polyps and now they're

like yeah that's proof of that you're in league with yeah i'm weighing again it's like the phrase um third nipple was also just really considered like you know moles so it's like i have a tip mole i'd be considered a witch well in this case the witch's tit was literally a third tit on her on her gut and it was only an inch long and it was just a little and it was probably just a hussy disgusting little girl poor old lady poor old bitch so just so we're clear the above was medical evidence presented in court as proof of guilt oh that's so gross but you know what it's time for hey son how are you feeling um i'm fine pops what's on your mind i just i can't explain it when your kid can't find the language find the lyrics start a conversation at soundedouttogether.org

and we're back we're back we're back talking about uh the events of this lovely uh witchcraft trial oversaw by judge in this case uh he's like the the lord chief baron matthew hail so when eventually susan changler was brought into court guess what fits prevented her from giving testimony but she recovered a little while later because they they brought her took her out of the court and then she got better and and so like she she came to and they're like are you are you good can we bring you back in so you can quickly do this she's like yes back to the source quote when she was sworn and asked what should could she say against either of the prisoners before she could make any answer she fell into her fits screeking out in a miserable manner crying burn

her burn her which were all the words she could speak i'm quote oh so gross okay the trial continued with expert opinions expert opinions yes the expert witnesses are coming in now oh this doctor hypothesized that the devil worked on people's bodies by stirring up an exciting the humors you know the humors blood flam black bile and yellow bile the the ways our bodies work of course of course and uh so the devil can unbalance your humors causing uh you know causing these afflictions and that the devil was taking natural afflictions and making them worse so one of the and there wasn't really like a traditional prosecution in defense like we would think of them in this case but um but there was a reasonable guy we're going to talk about in a minute who did present some

like well what about something that doesn't it sound bad shit crazy and and so um one of the questions was well this one girl already was getting six things wrong with her before the witch ever even showed up and got mad she had lost the use of her legs already before before amy dunny even showed up in her doorstep so literally he's saying well no no no it's okay because then when she cast the curse it just made everything worse that's just proof more proof of the devil's involved because the devil just he doesn't he just messes with your oh that's just fucking ridiculous he also would he also remarked that this was very similar to the witchings it took place recently in denmark science i am a lead witch finder yes well the witchfinder

general was some of these other cases that were tried in the same location were literally brought forth by the king's witchfinder um so the speaking of the more sensible guy i mentioned earlier his name was keeling and he did not feel that the evidence was enough to convict these prisoners yes same he said that even if the children were truly a witch there's like let's just say for point for sake of argument that this is real and this isn't utter this is satan the satan is here how could this evidence be used to prove that these are the two women who did it he warned quote for that if it might be allowed no person whatsoever can be in safety for perhaps they might fancy another person who might altogether be innocent in such matters unquote in other words

if this can be told horse anybody can say anything if you're gonna believe this this is a way to just destroy your neighbors ruin people and this is fucked and we shouldn't hence the entire Salem witch trials hence the entire point of arthur miller's play oh my god yeah it's complete fucking nonsense so sadly this is the one reasonable person in this entire goddamn story so so respect to you keeling you were the one good one but you didn't win oh well it actually took another guy named halt later on there was one more witch trial in this because this one location was used for a whole series of famous witch trials and after um hail was retired this other guy halt was the one who's like this is all bullshit and he kind of put a shut down he's kind of closed down the era of these

kind of things so so keeling and halt are only heroes actual heroes in the in this story and holds not even in this one so keeling he tried his best but he did not succeed to argue that side of things but he you'll see him try in some other ways um and that once again he's just saying anybody can accuse anybody no one is safe if this is allowed and they're like yeah whatever satan so yeah that's he's all we got so once again under keeling's direction they tried to do some like science they wanted to conduct some experiments to science to try to prove that it truly was amy and rose that are causing all this shit because they're like well the kids are freaking out the presence of these witches so what if we cover their eyes and have different people come in the room

and touch them and whatever and see how they react see this is just grifter shit this is absolute fucking nonsense this is a fucking clown show but okay we're gonna blindfold the kids and this will help us determine satan's involvement so so they do this thing so keeling's like look this way we'll see if it's really these women causing them to freak out or not so they did this and in one experiment a girl was blindfolded and just touched by like a clerk of the court one of those staff or whatever and the girl freaks out and goes into one of her fits just as if she'd been touched by amy or rose and so so feelings like see this might be bullshit however some bullshit going on mr. pacy the guy who brought the charges in the first place he argued successfully that if

the girl thought she was being touched by the witch of course she'd react in the same way that that the fear brought on by the witch it's it's real and so and this is just once again further proof of guilt it's proof of complete and total it's so facto a habeas corpses uh expecto protronum i mean all right let's let's keep going he also argued in this big monologue that that the since these children were from unrelated families there could be no conspiracy for them to act in similar ways they're like uh nobody asked you about that dude why don't you just loudly say that that's not fishy at all yeah fish guy yeah this fact may i'm in my head canon this dude is where we get the term fishy from that's not real but jamie made it up

uh so a man named john som testified that rose had screamed obscenities at him and issued vague threats after he damaged part of her house with his merchant cart yeah i would have yeah i'd have bitched him out so this dude flipped the side of her house messed up her brickwork and she's like you motherfuckers she comes out screaming at him later that day the same cart overturned multiple times then ended up stuck in a gate maybe it's because he sucks at driving a car yeah we already determined he can't steer doesn't know what he's doing so he sucks i love i love the cause and effects like simple common sense if you love so this is the best part after he crashes his car into this woman's house and and she yells at him his cart overturns multiple times and then gets

stuck in this gate so then these dudes are straining they're pushing the gate through and having to carry all this heavy shit and all of this work gave them all spontaneous nosebleeds satan which the witch has made this duff made my nose bleed oh that's ridiculous it's so funny except this ends with two old women dangling from ropes that's Jesus christ okay another man named robert sharingham swore to a story from this is once again a lot of these stories are from years before so it's like a few years back and he declares after he ran into rosa's house with his cart she threatened that his horses should suffer and all four of the animals died within a short time his pigs began jumping around and then dropping dead he lost the use of his legs and he was

afflicted with lice of extraordinary bigness and was forced you might need a fucking your your farm has lice dude and was forced to burn all his clothes well i mean that could just be like that's a you thing maybe you should have kept a clean at some point unspecified after this woman yells at him for crashing into his house his animals all start to die and it's clearly all of her fault clearly testimony against amy dunny claimed that she had hexed a flock of a flock of geese to death that she had correctly predicted the collapse of a newly constructed chimney evil prophecy and my favorite this one woman asked amy to help fetch a barrel of salted fish home so so the the fish is being brought by boat to the shore in a barrel all this these old bitties

and so she's like she's like she's like can you well no this is this other woman saying hey old amy come come help me bring this barrel of fish back and so amy supposedly said i will go when you actually have it and when the woman went to the shore to retrieve her barrel the fisherman told her it had mysteriously fallen off the side of the boat into the ocean and gone to the devil truly there was no evil that amy dunny would not perpetrate she says she took that woman's barrel of salted herring away you know so far it seems like all the people in this town just which and it's a witch and they're like every time these poor old bitties point out how much these people suck they're like if she's a witch burn her well now we don't burn in england at this

point that was the spanish inquisition yes that's we hung them we like we hang our witches like civilized people all right so with all the evidence presented and all the legal opinions offered there were two questions the court had to ask this is in the book the first question were the children actually bewitched second legal question if so are amy dunny and rose collander guilty so the pamphlet is quick to defend them these people for never asking the first obvious question are witches a thing is this real is this real or is this like a crock of shit um quote that there were such creatures as witches he made no doubt at all for first the scriptures had affirmed so much secondly the wisdom of all nations had provided laws against such persons which is an argument

of their confidence of such a crime and such hath been the judgment of this kingdom as appears by the act of parliament which hath provided punishments proportional to the quality of the offense and desired them strictly to observe their evidence and desired the great god of heaven to direct their hearts of this weighty thing they had in their hand for to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free were both an abomination to the lord unquote again witches are totally real because it's in the bible and also the king and parliament said so you i'm i'm telling you jesus he was a you know a notorious fan of capital punishment yeah it's all about it he was all about it about you know you know how like when the woman was

being starved to death and he's like yeah get her you need bigger sharper rucks that's that's the jesus all that in mind the jury went back for their deliberations for half an hour for a whole 30 minutes effort weeks of all of this they're like we got this two identical verdicts guilty hang the witch is both of them these poor old buddies the people in this town suck and remember this is the moment that that this one woman leaps to her feet and she's like praise jesus because i can moment the guilty verdicts is like some of the people immediately like we're all better now starting with that woman who literally threw aside her crutches like she should have been a giant red flag like a fucking televangelist thing but it's

like i'm healed so the next morning after the guilty verdict all the kids were brought to lord hails lodgings and everyone except susan chambler seemed fully cured like all the kids are better except one girl still got like a tummy ache and some issues a few of the children were brought into court and they were like they were brought back in uh now that the official proceedings are over and and they were like oh yeah um everything that yeah guys the way you did it we could hear you we couldn't talk but you got it right good job gold star everything you got you nailed it all right so um amy and rose at this point did not say much in their own defense because they were already pronounced guilty their fates were already sealed so there's like you know fuck you

kids you're just fucking lying piece of shit we're gonna die no wonder these old bitties were so mad all the time so living these town full of horrible people these people people suck ass yeah probably getting free fish for the rest of their lives um so the main account from trial of witches ends with this quote in conclusion the judge and all the court were fully satisfied with their verdict and their upon gave judgment against the witches that they should be hanged they were much urged to confess but would not now the next part is to understand that the author of this is technically anonymous it was it's published anonymously and it was published as if some person was here as a witness for this whole thing and just yeah like some kind of reporter right so he says that morning

we departed for Cambridge but no reprieve was granted and they were executed on Monday the 17th of March following but they confessed nothing end of the trial in all caps unquote oh justice was done yeah and justice for all oh my god are they gonna throw her did they they didn't even throw her in the water first to see if she'd float Matthew Hale crushing it once again as the ultimate awesome judge making sure that some motherfucking witches were not gonna be suffered to live while he was around there we have it so based on second and third hand evidence apparitions and dreams weird coincidences like accidents and dying animals and nosebleeds of pins and nails and stomachaches and seizures and fainting spells cysts and polyps and other growths were witches

teats used to suckle familiars and discolored skin was devil's marks as proof of their pact with the adversary or they could just be age spots you dick they're poor old ladies before medicine really existed um so for these crimes against god and man these two elderly women were hanged by the neck until they were dead and lord chief baron Matthew Hale i'm sure slept like a baby that night after his nightly prayers yeah that's a that's a gross story so that's a story of Matthew Hale and witchcraft yeah he's a real dick yeah and so as a Salem witch trail yeah does that sound familiar oh yeah i mean it's so i mean again it's like this is all been so par for the course except this one really does seem like this is a tinnish with the with the interest of this business whether

whether it was business reasons or he just hated these two women because they kept wanting to come around being all smelly and wanting to buy fish from him either way he wanted these two women out and it very seems like this was like a conspiracy he got all these people that he paid them off and they're like their children all suddenly were cured the moment the guilt because like i said they didn't even wait for the women to die there's like the moment there was a guilty verdict this woman's like i could walk again it's like gee these people these are some fucking horrible people and again i mean the Salem witch trials it was no different it was just bigger yeah it's always like used hundreds of people not just seemed more like a case of true like mass hysteria whereas this one feels more

like a conspiracy but it didn't well the mass hysteria started and it's like again it there's so many different reasons of why it might have gotten out of hand once you get that many people involved there's more than one reason i mean yeah it's like was there ergot poisoning there but there might have been that there might have been just like a lot of grudges against neighbors being expressed the official the kids that were initially afflicted they had come as orphans and servants from the french and indian war and started for some reason that no one could see would just start crying and shivering and and it's like it's very possible some of these kids just had severe ptsd and they didn't fucking know anything about it so it must be witchcraft and then it

turned into different land grads and some mass hysteria there was a lot of complicated issues it got out of hand it got out of hand and again most of the people involved after was all said none expressed remorse especially because one of the guys who were last to hang he was i want to say he was a reverend and he recited the lord's prayer um as they were about to hang him and the people were like he shouldn't be able to say the lord's prayer if he's a witch you can't you physically wouldn't be able to do it so they started to panic and try to save him and they pushed him down to hang him faster if i remember wasn't it right there the technicality was there was like one word difference in the true lord's prayer yeah they like they tried to they tried to give some

kind of bullshitty reason afterwards because they missed one word but no no they didn't even give him a chance to finish it because they were like oh holy shit he might be innocent hang him so again getting back to matthew hail it's like we got this guy who literally had women executed for fucking witchcraft and we're supposed to listen to his words however we're about to we're getting into something so we've come full circle bambi coming back right around to the topic that kind of brought us here at the beginning of episode one oh goody goody but you know what it's time for first oh shit we love ads

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supreme court case that cited hail very heavily um the ruling that came out last year so are we going to start burning witches too let's hang him so at this point we've established what kind of person matthew hill was and the kinds of cases he presided over like most men of his place and time he didn't believe that women should be allowed to own property make financial decisions or bring legal action well you know technically neither did we until almost the 70s oh yeah you couldn't own a checking account yeah we have a credit card we could not know and that was in the 70s yeah that was we had even lush rides before then uh you know it's really gross we learned that you know your right to not be raped by your husband didn't fully kick in until the mid 90s early 90s

you know back then during hailstime a father basically owned his daughter and until he sold her off to another dude who owned her for the rest of her life unless she was lucky enough for him to die first widows were some of the few people who sometimes got a tiny bit of autonomy and power and honestly widows at that time period too especially like turn of the century they fucking rocked it's like my husband is dead long live my dead husband i've got money so once again matthew hill is a guy who didn't believe that a husband violently raping his wife is a crime he instructed juries to be skeptical of testimony from a woman in rape cases however witch trials it's all cool anything gets yeah he considered you know men getting nosebleeds and the polyps in an old lady's

vagina as proof of guilt in a capital case that ended with two executions which again the court shouldn't be looking at old ladies vaginas for pretty much any reason that's none you'll business so i think it's fair to say we both agree matthew hill sucks and it makes no sense we're supposed to take his writings on the common law of anything productive in our life so yeah sorry we're supposed we're supposed to listen to matthew hill according to the supreme court oh yeah fuck a bunch of that but for but we ignore the parts that that we don't like about any hanged women as witches or believe that all power derived from god through a divinely important king which is specifically un-american if i were to like suppose we had a weegee board and we could summon and talk to

matthew hill i don't think he would think our entire legal system was legitimate at all because we rebelled against his majesty the divinely important king george the third as far as he's concerned america could just burn so let me say this out loud the laws of another country for more than 300 years ago should have no bearing on the lives of americans in the 21st century no preach and yet are you ready for the biggest mind fuck of all give it bring it so back at the beginning of the first episode i read you a selection from the majority opinion of the united state supreme court in the dobs versus jackson women's health organization that case that stripped away a woman's rights to make private medical decisions about her own body quote we begin

with the common law under which abortion was a crime at least after quickening i.e. the first felt movement of the fetus and the womb which usually occurs between the 16th and 18th week of pregnancy two treatises by sir matthew hill described abortion of a quick child who died in the womb as a great crime and a great miss prison unquote so as you can see the only quoted lines from hail are great crime and great miss prison right so keep that in your head so you know how incredibly bad movies will use very selective pull quotes from reviews to make them sound awesome so like some stinking turd of a film will have the quote breathtaking two sawn observer yeah and then you actually read the review and it says this movie was a breathtaking

piece of shit so you're familiar with that practice yeah well this kind of thing happens in academic circles also all the time so like you're writing a paper and the you have a you have a premise in mind and then suddenly the source you're citing doesn't really support the point you're trying to make so if you're acting in good faith you either drop that source and find something that does support your argument or you include it but you you argue against it and you try to to state why well he's this source said this but i can argue against it but if you're acting in bad faith if for example you're dishonest and maybe a worthless shit pile of a human being and all you do and if you are all you care about is advancing a political agenda well that's when you whip out

the trick used to sell bad movies you lie while still being technically accurate so let's follow the footnotes shall we let's start with that very first book cited is please of the crown by our boy Matthew Hale this is a very dry tome that's intended to be referenced rather than read it lays out definitions and standards and prescriptions as part of this attempt to standardize English common law so this is not even like i said it's not a reading book this is like would you look this shit up as a lawyer or judge to determine matters of law yeah different cases so so of this section of the book that we're going from is called of the kinds of offenses and it's a list of all kinds of crimes starting with heresy and witchcraft you know things that

really matter you know okay because remember religious crime and secular crime were all the same and this for doing it to Hale and working our way down till we get to murder on page 53 and this is the one where justice elito cites Matthew Hale so the page continues with this long legal definition called what killing so this is the page from please of the crown so what killing Hale asks and answers with poison weapon gun bow crushing bruising smothering strangling famishing inciting dogs yes even dogs are a legal murder weapon uh quote laying a sick man in the cold laying an infant in an orchard under leaves and he is stricken with a kite which is weirdly specific all of a sudden like everything else is like gun

pistol and hiding a baby under leaves and then he's hit with a kite so i'm assuming that was a specific case he was referencing there and quote a man keeps a beast used to strike knowingly and ties it not up the beast kills a man so you're responsible yeah you're responsible for your animals all this seems perfectly reasonable so far you shouldn't sick mean dogs and people or shoot them that's murder all right the kite thing's a little weird but okay but still hiding babies under leaves until they die also murder yeah i mean and you know a lot of folklore right you'd hide your baby because it was a little bit like they're laying a baby out to be exposed is murder doesn't matter that's murder killing no it's not a changeling it's your baby

stop that killing babies is murder check all right so next question about the subject of murder is what the person killed and they answer the first part of the answer is extremely important quote it must be a person in rayram natura unquote popping over to us legal dot com and checking out their definitions page to find out what this latin phrase rayram natura means in the american legal system quote this means in the nature of things in existence this phrase was used in a deletory plea alleging that the plaintiff was a fictitious person and therefore not capable of bringing the action unquote so but not saying same thing so what hail is saying is that in order to be a victim of a crime you have to be a real person who exists in the real world and in nature

so let's continue with hail and please the crown in page 53 here's where you can follow along what the person killed it must be a person in rayram natura if a woman quick with child take a potion to kill it and accordingly it is destroyed without being born alive a great misprison but no felony but if born alive and after dies of the potion it is murder the like if it does of a stroke given by another in like manner counsel before birth to destroy it and after the child is born destroyed accordingly the counselor is accessory to murder unquote so let's break that down he's saying a murder victim must exist in the real world and that if a woman were to take a drug that ended her pregnancy he calls it a great misprison yeah but no felony no felony

it's okay the great misprison line is his personal feelings on the woman's actions but he makes it clear that it's not a crime he goes on to explain that once someone is born they are a person protected under the law and you can't murder babies yeah you can killing a newborn is murder but a woman ending her pregnancy legally speaking it's not the dividing line is birth that's when there we go until then you're not a person oh so even the legal precedent that we're trying to quote is actually making the opposite point of what he said it does yeah okay let's keep going shall we oh that's nice you fucking dumb piece of shit i fucking hate this so let's follow the other quote that over alito survives abortion as a great crime opening up istoria placitorum canori history of the pleas

of the crown by sir matthew hill page 433 here's a page for you baby quote if a woman be quick or great with child if she take or another give her any potion to make an abortion or if a man strike her whereby the child within her is killed it is not murder nor manslaughter by the laws of england because it is not yet in rayram natura though it be a great crime and by the judicial law of moses was punishable with death nor can it legally be known whether it it were killed or not so if it is if after such child were born alive and baptized and after die of the stroke given to the mother that is not homicide but if a man procure a woman with a child to destroy her infant when born and the child is born and the woman in pursuance of that procurement killed the infant

this is murder in the mother and the procurer is accessory to the murder if absent and this whether the child were baptized or not unquote so again the words great crime the only thing that alito quotes is just a piece of editorializing that yeah he's like this is it's it i consider it a great crime but it's actually legally not a crime it clearly states quoting again it is not murder nor manslaughter because the fetus is not yet in the real world because it hasn't been born yet yeah it's i mean which okay it's very clear from these texts and other sources they didn't prosecute women for abortions in 17th century england so basically even what you're telling me is we're trying to cite legal precedent that didn't actually fucking exist it's all bullshit

holy shit so up until the feet up until birth the fetus was part of a woman's body and if she wanted to drink poison to end pregnancy hell didn't like it but it wasn't a crime because because for all his fault because it's not a fucking baby yet for all the human for all yeah for all his faults hail doesn't seem to be a guy who ever tried to rewrite the law he just was codifying it's like this is the english common law this is how we do things and he kept saying well i don't like this this is a woman real women really shouldn't do that it sucks but but even he didn't try to change what the law was and he wrote it very clearly it's right there for anyone to find if they fucking do the reading i do you remember that scene in the avengers when tony

stark shows up uh to asking about the energy from the cube and then everybody looks at him blankly he's like am i the only guy who did the reading yeah this is how i felt i'm the only guy i can tell so far at least in far so good even fucking bother to read it that followed the footnotes they read the opinion like the whole reason i did this subject was because a bunch of people were like it's weird that where it's weird that we're citing this this old judge this old dead fucker so everybody was pointing out no one questioned what matthew hail actually had to say they just assumed matthew hail sucked so of course his opinions on abortion sucked but in fact they were literally they were literally like yeah i think it's yeah he thinks that abortion you know it shouldn't happen

and again it's not a crime but it's not a crime until the baby's born the it's part of the woman's body she can decide so the examples given that do constitute a current murder charge all involve the child being born alive and living breathing children and it's hard and another reason why that would be it's like you couldn't women women had fucking miscarriages all the time it's the point i'm getting to so all the time so we all agree that baby murder is bad and should be illegal right yeah have you agree you agree we also agree that women should be allowed to do things with their bodies you know and and not have a one god damn thing that a fetus is not an independent person yet so thinking about it from a historical point of view hails thing here makes sense because

regardless of their uptight religious beliefs like you exactly like you just said how predictable and dangerous pregnancy was i mean it still is but even then before modern medicine it was oh my god incredibly dangerous holy shit it was almost a death sentence like miscarriages and stillbirth happened all the time women dying childbirth all the time taking the baby with her happened all the time you know c-sections that were the only way to possibly save the life of the baby that didn't often work happened all the time so until the baby was even a out of the womb there was no point in trying to give it legal rights or recognition under the law a lot of times they didn't even name their babies until they were two they're two years old yeah no like yeah there's a whole

another sea because that's the thing they're like don't get attached it's probably gonna die modern americans are very sheltered from how many babies and children used to die that's why you had big families because half your kids would probably not make it to adolescence well and i mean my boss my ex-boss she was only a good you know 10 15 years older than i am but she would talk about women she was like you guys don't understand the even the practice of having a baby shower before the baby is born was absolutely ludicrous until almost the 80s because more you know you wanted the baby to be here and born before you start buying a gifts right but you know common practice it's made you know childbirth both safer for the mother and baby so it's become more once you

kind of get to that you know close to full term it's like well you're probably gonna have a baby and then that's the other thing too like if you actually think about the row decision which was the trimester thing and then later with Planned Parenthood versus Casey they redefine it to fetal viability meaning once the kid could reasonably exist outside the womb it's no longer okay to or at least the states are allowed to to then regulate that that's the first time you can have abortion rules is at the point of pregnancy when this baby could live on its own meaning could be separated from the mother and live in the real world so it's that's an extension of what Hale actually had to say not what Justice Alito's bullshit claim is here in this thing so even

with this it cites that um a fetus in the womb usually occur you know the the first movement felt it's like i'll even call it the quickening the butter the butterflies it's 16 to 18 weeks which still we're um a lot of southern states are trying to cut it off at six yeah there were yeah four women knew no they're pregnant it's very it's completely so even this says that you should at least give them the first trimester it's yeah but this is just simply a way to overturn that so the states can do whatever they because this because states rights are fucking oh yeah so so basically okay there we have it so holy shit even when citing a hyper religious judge who didn't believe rape victims and hanged old ladies for the crime of being old ugly and cranky Justice Alito had to

misrepresent english common law in order to achieve the goals of a very modern conservative political agenda so even the courts of 300 years ago don't fucking didn't go with Judge Alito he the other words he he fucking lied oh my god have the receipts i literally just showed you and i can show anyone else and what we're left with is this chilling knowledge as of june 24th 2022 women in the united states of america have less reproductive rights than they would have had in 17th century england oh my god how you feeling oh my god i feel a little shocked and a little overwhelmed and i think that this needs to like we probably if he's going to go and blatantly misrepresent even just precedent law for his own fucking he should be pulled from the bench i think every

single citation i think he's made in every ruling he's ever made needs to be heavily scrutinized because he apparently is he's like i feel like i'm the teacher who's grading a term paper and i caught a student just being full of shit and lying about their sources like this is bad this is like bad for you know bachelor degree or associates degree level shit it's and the fact that he pulled those quotes so specifically means he knows very well that he's lying like he had to pull those two words out of the block of text that i showed you and that was the only two that he could that he could possibly do it and he took the guy's personal feelings and then pretended to everyone else that those were matters of law when they were not

oh that's some serious fuckery so yeah so holy shit that's more fuckery than the fucking extra nipples yeah so that's it jesus christ we are now done with sir matthew hale in the united supreme court and and all of that so uh let's just all take the rest of the day and enjoy whatever method of intoxication or relaxation you require holy shit whether it's booze or weed or punching a brick wall into your hands or bloody you know if you want to you know raise hell and protest and yeah i mean honestly it's like i don't have a law degree but i'm sure someone does well here's the the nasty part about this is that these are lifetime appointments and what he says goes there's no the only mechanism there's no impeach we can only look the only way we can overturn this

ruling is with a future future ruling which would need a different court or impeach you would have to be impeached and he should be but no one's we don't do it we i think we've impeached one supreme court justice in the early you know what i'm i'm really tired of hearing what we haven't done why don't we fucking focus on what we should be doing with you or maybe this whole system this whole system sucks and we need term limits term limits hey let's fucking quote this guy about some term limit motherfuckers so you know and how we shouldn't let the creepy old people run our fucking the run the entire show so retire asshole if you retire you want to protest uh you know make your voices heard or redacted redacted to a federal court building then you know i don't wouldn't blame you

so anyway thank you listeners for listening following us through this nightmare so yeah if you feel like it or care about anything anymore you know go to chance history dot com where i'm gonna have a follow-up piece that's written in a more serious style to make this point show these documents and make the case that i just made that the supreme court lied yeah they lied and they lied about what it was to make their their case um so yeah change the history dot com we are now going to drink and smoke heavily oh good lord and i need it bye bye see ya for two years we have defended a forest in south atlanta from those intent on destroying it this is the wilowney forest

those who want to destroy it intend to build a 90 million dollar police training facility cop city with roads to practice high-speed chases and a mock city to practice raids explosive testing crowd control and other tactics of urban warfare in response we have protested petitioned put our bodies on the line and put pressure on cop city construction companies and funders the climate crisis is already here all across the world people are fighting back against the destruction of their land water their local ecosystems the police trained in cop city will be used to brutally suppress the movements we need to wage these battles now and in the years to come the struggle for life on earth and the

struggle to prevent the expansion of the police state are one and the same this is not just a local struggle with media attention on the rise city officials are scrambling to control the narrative these individuals met harm to people and property this is a very strong many of them don't even live in atlanta or in the state of georgia they have fabricated domestic terrorism charges and they have done this precisely because the movement is strong the police murder of tortuguita and the ensuing cover-up could have chilled the movement but instead it has only grown and spread together we will stand up for the forest for the trees and the animals that live in it and for each other wherever you are we need you here come camp with us from march 4th through 11th

for a week of action in the willowney forest cop city will never be built willowney forest is and will always remain a public park