Chambers of the Occult - EP# 23 Obsessions That Kill and Hauntings That Harm: Dorothy Jane Scott and Doris Bither’s Dark Stories

Episode Date: December 6, 2024

In the first half of this episode, J unravels the haunting and tragic case of Dorothy Jane Scott, a 32-year-old single mother whose life took a terrifying turn in 1980. Dorothy had been receiving chilling phone calls from an unknown stalker who professed both love and murderous intent. On the night of May 28, 1980, Dorothy mysteriously vanished after taking a co-worker to the hospital. Hours later, her car was found burning in an alleyway, but Dorothy herself was gone. For years, her family endured taunting phone calls from her alleged killer, deepening the mystery and their anguish. Four years later, her skeletal remains were discovered, but her murderer was never found. J delves into the eerie details of Dorothy’s case, exploring the psychological terror of stalking and the tragic aftermath of an unsolved crime.Next, Kai takes us to Culver City, California, to explore one of the most infamous paranormal cases in history: the Doris Bither haunting, better known as The Entity Case. In 1974, Doris, a single mother of four, reported being physically assaulted by invisible forces in her home. Her children also witnessed these attacks and strange occurrences, including mysterious lights and objects moving on their own. Parapsychologists investigating the case documented unsettling phenomena but were unable to stop the terrifying events. The story would later inspire the 1982 horror film The Entity, but the true case remains a chilling tale of unexplained and relentless paranormal activity.From the terror of an anonymous stalker to the horrifying assaults by unseen entities, this episode of Chambers of the Occult dives deep into the shadows of obsession, fear, and the unexplained.Send us a text

Chambers of the Occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Hello. I think I froze again. It's just gonna be my thing now. Starting off the episode strong with a frozen person? J. Camera? Frozen J. Yeah. Yeah. Jay. I'm Kai. And I will always freeze on you. I don't know if that's like, like it's not a good thing, but at least you're consistent with it, you know? Yeah, you know, fight or flight, I'm consistently just freezing. Oh yeah, you will not choose. No, no.

I will get stabbed or punched or whatever it is. Like you will probably be the first to die. I will get stabbed or punched or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or punched or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is.

I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is. I will get stabbed or whatever it is no I will get stabbed or punched or whatever it is like you will Probably be the first to die. I will be the victim and I knowing myself. I would be the first one I

Have done many things that would end up with my body on the floor I mean, I wasn't trying to be like, gruesome and be like, yeah, with like a blood pile, I don't know, but my blood on the floor or something. Yeah. Okay, wow. Anyway. We're starting this off on a great note. I love this. Yeah, I'm just trying to get y'all ready for like murder because we always start with like true crime Is there murder involved because not all true crime is murder not all true crime, but a lot of it is which is really sad

Yeah, I would say Yeah, there is violence like there's the umbrella of like true crime has like a smaller umbrella of violence And then like murder is there. I don't know. Yeah, I guess you could say that. Because then I'm thinking murder is when you can poison someone that's not necessarily violent, maybe. I guess so, if we're getting into semantics about it.

I don't know. I need a PowerPoint for this. Don't have the time for it. We need a whole presentation about it. I don't know. I need a PowerPoint for this. Don't have the time for it. We need a whole presentation about it. We need criminal justice people to weigh in. I don't know, lawyers. Make a prezzi of what is true crime. Yeah. Yeah.

Weigh in on this, listeners, viewers. Yeah. Is tax evasion true crime? I think it is. Well, technically technically isn't any Crime crime true crime. Yeah, because what would be false crime? What would be fake crime? I don't like it It's a good question like a story or or would it be like I Don't know actually Like why do we call it true crime, why don't we just call it crime? Like, I don't know.

That is a good question. True crime implies there's false crime. And what would that be? Like, okay, you know what? A crime that's not really a crime. We've seen this on stage. Like what? What? Like tie my shoelaces the wrong way. Or like being late to class. Yeah, that's not crime. True crime. Yeah. I guess so. I don't know.

But yeah, it's interesting. If you know the origin of who came up with the true crime phrase, tell us. I got these mints from Trader Joe. They're green tea these mints from Trader Joe. Uh-huh. They're green tea infused mints do they do and I was like ooh green tea like matcha vibes Yes, but it's really weird. Okay, because you're hit with like Like a pretty realistic like earthy like matcha. Mm-hmm And then it turns into like a mint like a peppermint and so it's like

that just don't really mix it's like that candy from like Willy Wonka that like changed flavors but this one doesn't change flavors in a good way no not at all okay and I'm really sad I really wanted to like there is a chai tea version like a chai tea infusion yeah and that one is it's not amazing but I can get behind it I've definitely munched on those a bit so if you had to pick one of those two like if you only had those two options it'd be chai tea yeah 100% if you tried these let me know next time you're at Trader Joe's maybe pick up one of these and let us know how it is because they're kind of bad.

Also real quick, is my just, cause right now we've been like playing around with the internet. I hope I'm fine. I haven't frozen on your side. Yeah, no, you're good except for right at the start, but that's like normal. Yeah, I mean, it's been two times in a row. I wouldn't call it normal.

Okay, no, I'm connected to correct Wi-Fi I think we're good We're looking good You're looking good. I'm looking good. You feeling good Feeling good. We'll see how you feel after this case. Yeah, not for long. Oh Because back to true crime. Yeah, what do you got for us? Jay? Oh, I thought you were gonna go off on a tangent. I'm like... No. Um, I have a story that takes place in California. Woo!

I do too. Woo! Yeah, we're St. Local, y'all. This is the story of Dorothy Jane Scott. Okay. To be more precise, the missing case of Dorothy James Scott. Alright. I was going to say I like the sound of that, but I don't like the sound of that.

Because it's not a good thing. Of course. But this will be a good story. Yeah, so for this story we're heading south of California to the south area, to the south bay. We're heading to Stanton, California. Where the hell is Stanton? That is literally right next to like Anaheim.

Oh, so it is like southern like Stanton, give us a shout out. Anyway, Dorothy, this is where we're going to meet Dorothy Jane Scott. She was born on April 23rd, 1948. For those interested, she's a Taurus. And her parents were Vera and Jacob Scott. I also really like the name Vera. It's very unusual. Not common. No, I like it, yeah. And she was described by her loved ones as kind-hearted, compassionate person. She was also religious and quite a bit,

and she was a beauty who mostly just kept to herself. Now, her first 30 years were pretty normal, uneventful. We're gonna skip to the year 1980. At this point, Dorothy is 32 years old. She is a single mother and she works as a secretary. She has, she actually has, it's interesting, she has two jobs but she works for the same company. So it's two jointly owned stores in Anaheim, California, so it's right next to where she lives and the stores are called the swingers site club and custom John And like they're owned by the same person

Company that's why she's like she has two different jobs, but like it's the same company. It's the same okay Yeah, weird, but it makes sense so one of them sold side to psychedelic items like love beats Yeah, because love bids love beads were like very popular during the 1960s and 70s. So it was like, are they? I'm not sure. No, it's pretty much what the hippies wore. Like all those love beads.

Oh, the love beads. Yeah, I don't know what you heard. I thought it was a type of like drug because you said like psychedelic shit and I was like, oh, like that's, but okay. No, so we'll get to that. Got it. Yeah, no, like they're the brightly colored beads. No, so we'll get to that. Got it. Yeah, no, like, the brightly colored beads,

don't put them in your mouth, they're not edible. They shouldn't be edible. Okay. They sold like, Lavalot lamps and like, other things. And the other store that she worked at was a head shop. What? Thank you. I had to look that up as well. So a head shop is like a

store that like a retail store that specializes in like paraphernalia related to cannabis. That's where we get the yeah. Oh, that's where we get into the drugs. I don't that's where we get into the drugs. Yeah. And the stores often sell items like smoking pipes, rolling papers, incense, posters, tie-dye and clothing, because once again, this was like the 1980s. My brother came into my room one time last year, and he was just like, hey, I have this bong. Do you want it? And I was like, I have no fucking use for a bong.

Yeah. But okay. And now you just have it as decoration. I just have a bong. It's somewhere in my room somewhere. They're big. Well, it's actually like not that big. Okay, so it's one of the smaller ones.

Yeah. And it's in a minion backpack, like a Despicable Me minion backpack. It's so funny. Like you put it in a Despicable Me backpack? No, that's what he had it in. Oh, okay. Got it. It's gonna be funny.icable you back back. No, that's what he had it in. Oh, okay Got it No, nice. I never used it. I never plan on using it Uh-huh. No like the first experience I had like with the bong or like seen one like up close rather than like stores or like TV

Was in college. There's a friend that I I'm I haven't been in contact with her but One day like we were like in the student lounge and she just comes by with her backpack and she opens it and there's just a big bong in it. And she's like, you wanna come get high? And I was like, ah, some other day when I'm more stressed.

Yeah. But yeah, she just carried it in her backpack and I'm like, that might break. But anyway, yeah, so she worked at those kinds of stores. Were you sniffing a candle? Yes, I was. Okay, cool. Well, my room smells like gingerbread because I have a candle. I smell that candle. It was so good. I was like, it's and it's like cute little packaging.

Oh, it is. It is. Now, every morning, the way that Dorothy had her routine was that she would take her four-year-old son, his name was Sean Scott. She actually nicknamed him Shanti. So she would take her four-year-old son to her parents' home in Anaheim, and they would take care of him while Dorothy was at work. Now after work, she would just pick up Shanti and bring him home. Pretty typical for a single mother. Nothing really crazy. As for Shanti's dad, his name was Dennis Terry.

And Dorothy and Dennis had like a cordial but distant relationship. Because actually Dennis lived in Missouri. So he rarely saw Shanti. And there's very few details about the relationship because Dorothy was just very private about that relationship. Fun fact, because it was the 80s, she was actually part of like a touring, she was touring with an all girls band. And during that whole- That's cool. Yeah. And that's when she met like Dennis Dennis and at some point she ended up pregnant, she ended up moving back to California, and she didn't really talk about the situation. Now, I have a question for you.

Shoot. Kai, how often do you get phone calls? Not often. Okay. Like half the time they're like those get phone calls? Not often, okay Now half the time they're like those spam phone calls. Thank you Okay, cuz it was gonna be a follow-up question of like how many of them are from unknown numbers? Majority of yeah, see yeah Well Dorothy started to get her life turned upside down when she started to get weird phone calls. Okay.

This was before caller ID. So everyone just picked up the phone because they didn't know if it was family, work, everyone just picked up the phone. And on the other line, there was a man. Now, it's not very well recorded when like the calls first started, but she was able to somewhat recognize the voice. She couldn't really identify who the voice belonged to, but every time she got a call from this man, he would tell her that he loved her. What the fuck? Yeah. Random guy being like, I love you admitting that is so insane. The calls were said to be almost daily. Oh shit.

Yeah. That's dedication. Oh yeah. I mean, it's weird as hell, but that's dedication so also like initially like I said though They were like calls to like express his interest in Dorothy like in a romantic way but She rejected him. She had no idea who this man was he wouldn't identify himself Oh course so pretty soon they turn into threatening calls You know he's angry she's not reciprocating and he's like, you know, fuck you, whatever,

you bitch, all that stuff. It's a little bit more than that. Because he would start demonstrating his knowledge of her daily routine and activities with some stalking behavior. Okay. Yeah. So, as you can imagine, she doesn't know who this man is. Um, with some stalking behavior. Okay. No. Yeah. So as you can imagine, he, she doesn't know who this man is.

She's like, his voice sounds familiar, but I can't put a face to it. So Dorothy was just freaked out by this call since she started to worry about her safety. Of course. Um, that is the smart thing to do. And it wasn't just for her safety because remember she lived with her four year old. Yeah. So it's like, it's me, it's my four year old and they lived in an aunt's house.

Like they lived with an aunt as well. So she was on her own basically just raising her son and she's getting this like love calls that quickly turned sour and now she's getting threatened. Now according to an article in the Statesman Journal, one day, Dorothy got a call. The usual. Her daily call of like, I know what you're wearing or type of thing. Um, she got the call while she was at work,

and the man on the phone told her to go outside because he had something for her. Don't tell me she got outside. Do not fucking tell me she went outside. Well the thing is that even though she was of course afraid and terrified, and I mean like terrified, this woman, she's a single woman, she's using this calls. I would be terrified. She wanted to know who this man was.

That's for the police to find out. And the thing is, because I get it from that point. No caller ID. They didn't even consider that to be a thing in the future. But they're like, she has to know who this man is if she wants to protect herself against him. So she's like, maybe I'll go take a peek or something. So okay, I guess I can understand. Just trying to look or something. Yeah, to see if there's a strange figure outside. So Dorothy goes outside and right there on the windshield on her car is a single dead rose.

And that's the gift. Yeah. That's gross. Oh yeah, yeah. That's gross. Oh yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's just eerily foreshadowing, but also like, it's, it's sickening because it's confirmation

that like, this man knows where you work. This man knows what you drive. Knows everything. Yeah. Everything about you. He can get this close to you. Do God knows what. And you wouldn't even know anything until it's too late.

And you can't do anything about it. Yeah. So as the weeks go by, the calls start getting worse. So not only did this man on the phone claim that he was watching her but he started he started just like answering like when she answered the phone he would have like very very like chilling threats I have a quote here from one of the newspapers that said she picked up the phone and he said now you're gonna come my way and when I get you alone I will cut you up into bits so no one will ever find you

This is why women choose the bear oh yeah Yeah, yeah, and I do not blame them no No, men are scary. Yeah, really scary So and we're talking as men We see it as well I'm so sorry now No, yeah same. Yeah. Unfortunately, the phone calls was not where it would stop.

Because on May 28th of 1980, things went from bad to worse. To worse. It started like a normal day. There was nothing out of the ordinary. Dorothy, she actually just had a meeting to go that night at 9 p.m. at Swingers. So she just went to Swingers. Some people say that she took her son with her. Some people say that like she dropped her son off.

But we're gonna go with a story of she took her kid with her. So she went to a meeting and during that meeting like a co-worker of hers named Konrad Bossrun, Konrad became very ill and Dorothy was a caring person so she went over to her co-worker and she asked him if he was okay, if he needed help, and the way that he responded told her that like he definitely wasn't feeling fine. He was, he had a little bit of like red swelling on his arm. He had also become like just physically ill, just not feeling well. Yeah, so. Yeah, so he also had a little bit of a fever starting. So that's when Dorothy just told everyone in the group,

it's like, hey, we're gonna wrap up the meeting short. Yeah, this guy's not feeling good. Conrad's not feeling well. We need to get him out, you need to get out. We're gonna take him to the hospital. I'm gonna take him to the hospital. So another co-worker of theirs, another woman, her name is Pam, she decided to accompany Dorothy

and Conrad to the hospital. Just someone else there to be with them. That's nice, yeah. So she left with them as well. And Dorothy knew that they were probably going to be at the hospital for a while, especially because they didn't know what was happening to Conrad.

So Dorothy decided to make a quick stop at her parents' house where she would drop off her son Shanti. Now, something to take note of is that when she stopped by to drop her son Shanti off, her mother told Dorothy that she should change her scarf. So she switched from a black scarf to a red scarf. There's weird. It's a strange detail that will come in the future, but there's no reason. There's no reason that I could find that she changed scarves. Some theories are that maybe it was like it didn't look good with her outfit

or it was going to be a warmer scarf because it was later on the night or maybe it was dirty. Yeah. But just a small little detail that no one would think of twice at that moment. So Dorothy switched scarves, and she was also wearing at the time blue Levi's, a multicolor satin shirt,

and she had like rust color shoes. So interesting choice. Yeah. Okay. You do your fucking job. Different time. So Dorothy Conrad and Pam arrived at UC Irvine at the medical center, and Conrad was immediately checked in. So it was said that while Conrad was being taken care of,

that Pam pretty much like never left Dorothy's side. Like they were together the entire time at the hospital. So sometime later, Conrad came out and he told them that they had found the reason for the red swelling and that it was caused because of a black widow. Oh, okay. Just like a black widow. Oh, okay. Just like a black widow bite.

Yeah. So I was like, ooh, I was like, what are the symptoms for like black widows? It just affects like the nervous system. It causes like pain, like muscle, nausea, stomach pain, excessive sweating. If you're allergic, you can die from black widow bites. Yeah.

So it's a good thing that they took him to the hospital. Yes. Rather than like go home, sleep it off. So once again, it's no wonder why Conrad was feeling so sick. He was fortunately treated. They gave him a prescription and he was discharged from the hospital around 11 p.m. So that was around like two hours after they had initially arrived. So they had been at the hospital around 11 p.m. So that was around like two hours

after they had initially arrived. So they had been at the hospital for two hours. Yeah. And there was also a pharmacy at the hospital. So Conrad and Pam went to fill the prescription out. So while Conrad and Pam were waiting in line, Dorothy told them that she was gonna go grab the car and that she was gonna bring it to the front,

so they wouldn't have to walk because like, hey, the sooner we're out of here, the better. Nice, yeah. So Dorothy made a quick pit stop at the women's restroom and then she went outside to retrieve her car. And she never returned again. Well, the thing is... I'm gonna spoil it.

No, no, you were right. I actually had it written, and that was like the last they would see of Dorothy. Because what ended up happening was that after Conrad and Pam were done filling their prescriptions, they ended up like stepping outside waiting for Dorothy, but she wasn't out there waiting for them. Like there was no car, nothing. A few minutes passed by and they're confused as where she could be because it had been about 20 minutes at that point. Yeah. So she drove a 1937 Toyota station wagon

and on the distance they saw the car approaching and they're like, OK, there's Dorothy. That's her. She's on her way. Yeah. However, this car was coming a little too fast with no indication that it was going to slow down. They couldn't see who was inside. Pam claimed that the car's high beams were on and that the lights were not on. So the car came towards them very fast and just whipped out of the parking lot. And it blinded them so they couldn't see anything. Yep and just like left them both there at the parking lot. Just like what's happening.

Now, when this first happened, Conrad and Pam just went to the location where Dorothy's car had been parked to be like, maybe that was a different car. Maybe that wasn't Dorothy's. They found the parking spot empty. Um, and they also found an empty pack of cigarettes left behind. And they also found an empty pack of cigarettes left behind. Now, there's no connection between like, there's no official connection between the cigarettes and the man or even the car,

but it was just a detail that was there. So with Dorothy gone, Conrad and Pam went back into the hospital and they just decided to wait for her to return. So once again, this was also like before cell phones so they couldn't just call her and see what was happening. No. They waited at the hospital for a couple hours just to see if she was going to show up. Because according to them, they thought that maybe there was a family emergency with her son and that's why she took off.

And that she would eventually come back. Yeah I guess I could understand that but I mean at the very least if there's an emergency you're still driving up and like hey getting quick we need to go. That's what I thought as well. You stop and you're like sorry can you guys wait an hour I'll be back I need to go take care of this. Yeah just get them in the car and they're like what's going on I'll be back. I need to go take care of this. Yeah, just get them in the car and they're like, what's going on? I'll explain on the way. But, yeah. You know, they were definitely trying to not think the worst.

Of course, and I can't blame them for that. Of course, they're going to want to hold out hope for as long as they can. And then, you know, right now we're already thinking true crime. So it's like, well, we already assume the worst. Of course. So, after several hours, they decided to phone Dorothy's parents to see if Dorothy had shown up. And if something serious was happening, to at least get them comfort that, like, okay,

Dorothy is there. So they decided to just wait a little longer before they called the family. They called the family, and they said that Dorothy never before they called the family. They called the family and they said that Dorothy never came back to the house. So at this point they decided to call the police. But because of the fact that Dorothy was an adult woman, the police didn't really seem to worry about it. They just believed that maybe she hopped in her car drove off and that she eventually would show up again You know and explain what happened? So she was an adult woman she could do whatever she wanted to

It would understand why that's in place because it's like sometimes people just Do go off and do something? Yeah, it's like sometimes people just go off and do something. Yeah. It's like... Anyway. No, it makes sense. It's usually like when you want to file like a missing persons report, they're like for how long have they been missing? And there is like a minimum before like you can file it.

Yeah. So it would be around 430 a.m. on May 29th, the day after the incident. So only like a couple hours after like, like they saw the car leave. Dorothy's car was located. Oh. Yeah, so not even, it didn't take anyone. It just was located. And the reason that it was just like, this is Dorothy's car

because the car was found in an alley in Santa Ana, which was about 10 miles from the hospital, but the car wasn't just abandoned, it was set on fire. Oh, shit. Yeah. So it was probably like the firefighters or something. They probably got on scene and then the police checked and they're like, oh wait, this is...

This is the car that we got, someone told us about recently. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if the police didn't seem too worried about Dorothy's disappearance before, after finding this car on fire, they sure were now. Oh, of course. Now they were. Yeah.

Yeah. How could you ignore that? Of course. So that's when the police told the parents to not talk to the media during the initial investigation, just to just have like a proper investigation to not get, I don't know, like prying eyes on everyone else involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dorothy's parents were told that they could just, like, if they talked to the media, they could interfere with any progress when it came to finding Dorothy. Because at this point, nothing was really reported on her case.

So for the first week, there was really nothing that was happening. There was no clues, no leads, nothing. Now do you remember how she was getting those strange phone calls? Yes. Yes. Okay. Well, after the first week, no clues were popping up anywhere until Dorothy's mother Vera, she was home alone and she received a call.

Fuck, and it was from the same motherfucker. Yep, she walked over to answer the phone call. It was a man's voice on the other end. And it asked, are you related to Dorothy Scott? Oh. Vera replied yes and the caller said I've got her and he hung up. Fuck. Yeah. Fuck. Okay. So I don't know if... I would be glad as a parent that now there's a lead, or I would be more concerned.

And to know that she's alive, but now it's like, oh, somebody has her, it's this strange man. Her car was set on fire. What the fuck is going on? So, Dorothy had talked to her mother, Vera, about the strange phone calls she was getting. So immediately after this man hung up, she remembered the calls that she mentioned. So she had a feeling that this might be the same person and that he might have done something to his daughter because it was just too coincidental for it to be random.

So that's when Vera and Jacob waited around another week hoping for some more updates in their daughter's case. Nothing was being done by the police. There was no more leads. Nothing. So they got fed up and that's when they decided to reach out to the Santa Ana Registry, uh, register. And the story right off the bat, like, was ran in the newspapers about her disappearance. So everybody knew now. Yep. The parents were like, it's been two weeks. You don't even have a lead.

Yeah. So we're telling the newspaper. The media to see what they can do, if they can help or whatever. If anyone can come forward that they saw something. I don't know. Okay. So the same day that the article was ran, someone else got a call. Any idea who got that call?

Conrad? I don't know. No, good guess. The hospital? Like I really wasn't building up to like you to be able to guess. I guess so. I didn't set up right but Any guess okay the story editor for the Santa Ana registry? Oh?

the guy that wrote the article the guy that wrote the newspaper about Dorothy Jane Scott missing he received a call the same day that the article was published hmm, okay So Pat Riley answered the phone, and he was a male voice. And he gave him a lot more than he gave his mother. I have three quotes that are just kind of like following each other. And it says, I killed her. I killed Dorothy Scott. She was my love. I caught her cheating with another man

She denied having someone else. I killed her Self-centered pieces shit. Oh, yeah. Yeah Now this could have just been anyone that just read the case and felt like playing a prank on the newspaper But the man also mentioned little details that hadn't been released to the public. Oh, okay. Details that only a few people knew, like Dorothy wearing a red scarf,

the spider bite from the co-worker. So it brings up the question of how, this isn't a random person that just played a prank on us because they had to be someone that... He's been watching her, he's been stalking, he's been close to her. Exactly. Which means it could have been someone that maybe saw her at the company party with that black scarf and then saw her at the hospital with a red scarf. At some point he also had knowledge of that spider bite.

Yes. So there's a few theories happening here because they're like, is this a co-worker? Is this a family? Is it members? Is this a friend? Is this somebody who is at the hospital with them? Yeah. Or something like that? Yeah. Now something that was brought up as well, the man on the phone, when he was talking to people, he said that Dorothy had actually called him while they were at the hospital. But what didn't add up was that Pam, they asked Pam and she said,

"'No, Dorothy was next to me the entire time. "'She didn't make any phone calls at the hospital Now maybe if she made a phone call could have been after she used the restroom When they had split but yeah when she was going to use the restroom before she left to get the car Yeah, cuz that's the only time she was away from Everyone everyone yeah from Pam. So once again, this call most likely came from her stalker. So now the danger is here that the stalkers,

the danger here is that stalkers in worst case scenarios, they sometimes become delusional. They create this entire relationship with the person that they're... They just live in this reality. Yep. And a stalker that's this far off, like from reality, it's pretty dangerous. Oh, it is. They'll do anything. And it's what ended up happening here.

Dorothy's kidnapped. People get calls and then he starts claiming she had a lover. She denied it, so I killed her. When they talked to Vera, to Dorothy's mother, she said that he didn't have a boyfriend, that she wasn't seeing anyone. So once again, it kind of just contributes to this stalker. Maybe saw her be friendly with someone.

And he just made his own story. It's like, oh, like, that's your cheating on me or something. So yeah, they believe this man was the same caller that had just been stalking Dorothy for months. He was most likely the abductor. He was the one that kidnapped her that night. And that he saw her with that red scarf. So that's why he could give that detail to the newspaper. And at some point he somehow knew about the spider bite. Either he was definitely part of the friend group that was aware that it was a spider bite.

Or he just interrogated Dorothy when he kidnapped her. See, I could believe that, but honestly I think the more viable thing is that, once again, we know he was stalking her, right? So like he probably was just watching closely somehow. Like it's so scary to think that this man could have been in the waiting room at the hospital, like two, three seats away from door seat. Like sitting there watching her walk out. Here, it's like, oh, it was a spider bite. Like it's because this man is not identified. At this point, they don't know who this man is. No, they don't.

Now, from then on, the phone calls did not stop coming through. They kept going. They kept going. They kept going. From then on, every single Wednesday, the phone at the parents' house would go off. Every Wednesday? Every Wednesday.

And it seems that they were not only stalking Dorothy, but her family as well. Her family. Because the person that was making the calls stalking Dorothy, but her family as well. Her family. Because the person that was making the calls knew that Vera, Dorothy's mom, and Jacob's daily routine. So he made sure to always call earlier on the day while Jacob, the father, like the father, was at work. So Vera would have to be at home alone to answer the phone. Disgusting.

Yeah. So this man is definitely just showing like, I know your like day to day routine. Like I don't know. I know you. I know what's going on. It's like a threat. You can't hide from me. Exactly. Yeah. One time, one Wednesday, he did call a little bit later, so Jacob was home and he answered the phone.

And after Jacob answered the phone, the phone, like the calls stopped for a little bit. Because Veer was always the one to take the calls. Yeah. Jacob one day picked up the phone, the man wasn't expecting Jacob to pick it up, and they just stopped for a while. Bro got scared. Yeah, yeah. I don't know if like he stopped calling because he's like, oh, like they switched their schedule, like I have to like watch them to see their new schedule. For how long do you think that this calls, they were receiving this calls? For how long? Yeah. Like they were

getting the calls before they stopped? Yeah. Well, I mean even like well when Jacob answered they stopped for a while and then they continued. Oh they can okay. Yeah a year? Two years? Okay. Maybe. They were getting daily phone calls for four years. Holy shit. So for, yeah. And there were, was there still the police investigation going on? Yes. Were the police ever roped into these calls to try to track them? Oh yes.

They have a ton of like, recorded audio from what this man sounds like, but they don't know who it is. But for four years, this man called his family, just taunting them, teasing them, like, I took your daughter. Every single time that the phone rang, Vera answered the phone, just hoping that the man would give them some information that would help them to find where her daughter was, whether she was alive or anything like that.

But he always said- He never did. For the four years, he said very similar things, just like reworded them differently. Or yeah, so he said, I've got her, I killed her, and he would often just mock the family by saying, is Dorothy there? Who is this fucker? What the hell?

Who is this guy? Who does he think he is? Now, at this point, the police could have tracked the calls back. Like, they could have traced them. But the man knew that, so the calls were only a few seconds long. Got it. He didn't stay on the phone long enough. He probably knew that the cops were at some point at the house. Oh, of course. So, the calls were always just a few seconds. Like it didn't give them enough time to like trace the call. Now her parents ended up offering a $2,500 reward for just any information that would lead to the discovery

of their daughter, whether it would be alive or dead, just wanted some information they're like it's been four years so it wouldn't be until august 6 1984 four years after her disappearance the parents are still getting the cause at this time. Yeah. Four years after she disappeared, a construction worker located human bones. Oh shit. Yeah. He located human and dog bones. Yeah.

And they're side by side in some brush off the Santa Ana Canyon Road in Anaheim. So skeletal remains had been located, which brought a lot of fear, but also hope to the family. They also found... Maybe we'll be able to catch this guy, because whatever reason... After four years, now we have something. And some closure, right? Yeah. this guy yes whatever reason after four years like now we have closure right

yeah they also found a turquoise ring and a watch and a ring well the turquoise ring so it would be this ring and the watch that they used to help identify the remains of the body being Dorothy because Vera, her mother immediately recognized the items. So it was Dorothy. Yeah. So they have also found that the watch had stopped like maybe been broken or something at 1230 AM, which was about an hour after Conrad and Pam last saw Dorothy. Which means that maybe as soon as an hour she was killed. Maybe, but like, but I doubt that because I mean the watch watch right it could have stopped at 12 30 at any day

Yeah, maybe when they kidnap her they push her to the floor and the watch cracked, but it's just a detail that they mentioned They were able to get dental records as well They compared them and it confirmed their beliefs that the skeleton remains in fact belonged to Dorothy. Fuck. Yeah. So, at this point, they know their daughter is dead. They found her remains. They still don't know who this man is.

Now, they actually couldn't identify or like determine the cost of death for Dorothy because the bones had actually been charred. Oh, yes. Oh, now real quick, though. The first guess is that it was connected to the fire in her car, car, but but there was no body found in the car. No, the The logic reason here through some research was that there was actually a fire that had swept through the area two years prior. So because the bones had been out there for four years, like on the second year a fire just came through, chart them up. That's true.

That could also be really plausible. Yeah. So, interestingly enough, some of Dorothy's bones were also missing. And then you also said there were dog bones that were found. We will get into that too. Okay. Yeah. No, because the dog bones threw me off as well. I saw your reaction when I said dog bones.

Yeah, I was like, what? So, some of the bones that were missing or just incomplete were... There was only a partial discovery of her pelvis, an arm, two thighs and her skull. Wow, so not many of her bones, actually. No. Theories are that it's because it's been four years. If she got dumped into like the desert, wild animals could have scattered them throughout the years.

This is true. Yeah. Um, the announcement of the discovery of the remains ran in the newspapers. Um, and while her loved ones were grieving, they received one more call. Yeah. And once again, it's the same day that like things about Dorothy are posted on the newspaper. This man is not waiting a day or two.

He's calling the same day that it's published. Um, like always Vera answered the phone. And I don't know if this is a power move from the caller or if this is just... It has to be a power move because Vera answered the phone and the man said, the phone and the man said, is Dorothy home? And then he hung up. Fuck that. That's like, Oh, that is sadistic as all hell. Yes.

It's also means that he's following that, like the whole discovery of the bone. Exactly. And everything he knows, he still knows everything that's going on. He's still part of that, like, friends, family, co-workers circle that surrounded Dorothy. Acquaintances, anything. So of course, like, he's still aware of it.

After that phone call, they completely stopped. No more phone calls came through. They never heard from that man on the phone again. As for the dog bones, they couldn't really figure out why there were dog bones next to her. There's multiple theories. Some said that it was like some satanic ritual. That needed like a human and like a canine.

That's weird. That needed like a human and like a canine. Other people said that it was like a cover-up for Dorothy. That if the man knew that he was going to dispose of the body, that he was also going to carry a dog's corpse. And if someone saw him and they're like, hey, what are you doing? It's like, oh, like I'm just burying my dead dog. Look.

And kind of use the dog. That's plausible. It's kind of weird. It's also been four years since this disappearance happened. No, this is true. This is very true. So once again, their theory is there's never anything concrete about where the rest of the bones are for Dorothy

or why there's dog bones in the mix. That's true. Another theory was that maybe if someone just walked by and saw bones, they wouldn't think too much of it because they're like, oh, like they're dog bones. Yeah. But there was like a human skull there. But yeah. So after the calls completely stopped, a memorial service was held for Dorothy on August 22nd. That's nice. And at this service, her brother,

I have a quote from him that just said, "'To me, she exemplified the word give. "'She just gives and gives and gives no matter what. "'It cost her, she spent her last hours giving and being concerned about others. That's so sweet. Yeah. To be remembered that way, I think is nice.

I'm not gonna tear up. I know. But yeah, I mean, of course it's a memorial. They're gonna say sweet things about her, but that is a really nice way to like remember someone. And I can't imagine how, you know, her coworkers felt knowing that they were the last people to have seen her. That's insane to me. We were just with her at this hospital to help out your friend,

and next thing you know, she's gone. And then four years later, her bones are found, and there's just all the thoughts of like, was I that last person to see her? What happened? So many questions more than answers. Yeah, really. People started wondering why. Because Dorothy was being stalked.

People were wondering if Dorothy knew that she was being stalked, that they knew all this intimate details of her routine, her coworkers, everything, why did she walk out of the hospital into the parking lot alone? Like if she had, yeah. Like if she, if this was genuine fear that she had for her life, why did she walk out on her own? She would not have.

Because there were what? Four other people with her? Three. Yeah, there were three in total. She could have just waited for them to come back. Maybe she could have gone to help fill his prescription and then the other friend Pam went to pick up the car. A theory that I guess could make sense is that maybe she felt more comfortable

that nothing would happen because if there was an actual stalker, the stalker would know that she was with two friends, with two coworkers. Something that also came to mind just now for me is like what if while she was separated from her friends inside the hospital, the bathroom, whatever, what if she saw a guy stalking her actually in the hospital? Oh.

Or someone coming after her and so she ran to her car. Yeah, that would make sense as well. She ran to her car to try to like get away from this guy and then he forced his way in. Followed, caught up or something. Yeah, something like that. Because this man was clear, I mean we know how obsessed he was with the phone calls, with the details, with everything. Yes, yes he was.

Dorothy at some point considered buying herself a gun. Good for you, girl. However, like she didn't end up going through with it because of her son. She's like, I don't want my son to live in a household where there's a gun. So she never bought a gun. She wanted it just of course for protection.

But Dorothy did think of multiple ways to protect herself if the worst came to happen. Unfortunately, she was never prepared. She never saw it coming because she never knew who this person was. So Dorothy was laid to rest in the Forest Lawn Memorial Park in Orange County. And her father would end up passing away at the age of 69 on April 23rd of 1994. Now, April 23rd was Dorothy's birthday. Oh, yeah. Dorothy's mother would pass away at the age of 74 on December 17, 2002. Dorothy's son, Shanti, he grew up, he has a family of his own nowadays. He wasn't raised by his father. His father was like a very possible suspect for a while. Okay, I just kind of assumed the father was like completely out of the picture.

Like nothing. So, I don't, a few months, I want to say it was a few months before she started receiving the phone calls, he had come over to California and they had like a heated discussion about the custody for the son. Because they're like, you've had like complete custody for our son for the past four years. So he wanted custody for the next four years. He's like, it's only fair that I have him for the next four years. Long story short, he didn't end up being a culprit. He had an alibi and things didn't add up with him being in a completely different state compared to California when things were happening

So like I said Dorothy's son Shanti Sean he grew up he has a family of his own And he tried to get involved to help in his mother's case in any way he can That's awesome. He was only four years old when this happened. So he doesn't remember much of it. He just remembers people telling him that she was an incredible person. The year, as we're recording this episode, it's 2024. This murder occurred 44 years ago. And in those 44 years, there has never been a solid suspect. Nothing. Dorothy's parents never really suspected anyone who worked for Dorothy, or who was involved in her in any way for her murder.

But honestly, like you never know, like after everything I read, like it was most like, it was definitely someone that was involved in some capacity in like Dorothy's life. Yeah. Some like being close somehow. Yeah. Before Dorothy's father passed away, he had an interview. And in this interview, he said that he feared that they were dealing with a person who was very sick.

And I couldn't agree more. Back in the early 1980s, stalking was not taken as seriously as it is today. Yeah. it is today. And unfortunately, like this kind of behavior when it comes to like a stalker, it's, it's bound to repeat. Yeah, it, it, stalkings aren't just stalkings, like they progress into more. And if they're not stopped, then it keeps on happening. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that this started as like a no-contact stalking, just keeping tabs on her.

At some point, this man decided to call her and then leave her a dead rose and then threaten her and then take her. So it's still like a very serious issue, stalking. Still happens a lot today. Fortunately, there's a lot more resources. I'll end up putting some of those resources on our website, like anyone that needs help. There's SPARC, which is the Stalking Prevention Awareness and Resource Center. There's also RAINN, which is Rape Abuse and Incest national network. There's also OVW, which is Office on Violence Against Women. Not all of them necessarily like provide services for stalking and aid, but they can redirect people to the proper organization to help them. So I'll put them on the website.

That's awesome. And unfortunately, that is the story that the missing case of Dorothy Jane Scott. That's... I know there's a lot of questions. No, it's just not even necessarily questions. It's just like disbelief of Knowing this things like this can happen of Knowing how hard it is to solve them like this guy was never found. No They don't even have a lead. It's never evidence. No leads whatsoever. They've had a couple persons of interests, but they never became suspects. This guy could still be alive.

Yeah. Yeah, he could. That is crazy. And unfortunately, like, we have nothing to go on, nothing to give people. No description. No. Nothing. Not at all. Yeah.

Wow. I did say we'd get dark. Well, it did. Well, listeners, let us know your theories. Let us know what you think. Yeah. If you're- Why do you think the dog bones were there?

What do you think that was for? And the charred bones. That's like the biggest, like one of the biggest dead ends that I can't answer at all. No one knows why. Crazy. Did someone like, did he just find dog bones and just put her there next to the dog bones? Or like, was the body there first and then the dog bones came?

Or was it at the same time? Yeah. Weird, weird, weird. And I really don't want to think about being stalked or anything like that. And listeners, you should not be thinking about that as well because that'll only make it worse for yourself. Like, yeah, it's good to recognize that like,

the world is scary and you need to protect yourself, but. Be aware of your surroundings, I was just saying. Be aware, know how to protect yourself in case you need it. Please, like please actually take classes. There was a brief mention for Dorothy Be aware. Know how to protect yourself in case you need it. Please. Like please. There was a brief mention for Dorothy that she took self-defense classes. Hell yeah, Dorothy. So yeah, do whatever you do to feel safe.

Kick him in the balls. Mace, tazer, combination, all of them. No, seriously. If... Kick him in the balls, like it sounds way too simple, it will work. Honestly, the way that I see it, it's like after that kick, just keep going. Just like keep kicking.

Give him one, give him another. Yeah, don't. Okay, give him a third, then get out of there. Yeah, don't give him time to recover. Yeah. Okay, give him a third, then get out of there. Yeah, don't give him time to recover. Yeah. I think for like every kick, give yourself like a minute of like time to run away. So if you need five minutes, give him five kicks. I don't know.

You know, to like get somewhere safe. I played lacrosse in high school, right? I was a goalie. I was a goalkeeper. So lacrosse in high school right I was a goalie as a goalkeeper so Lacrosse balls, I think I have one on my desk For some weird reason I Do not have a lacrosse ball on my desk anymore. I guess probably a good thing anyway. It's like it's a solid rubber ball and That thing gets thrown 60 plus miles an hour.

Oh yeah. Right? So, coming right at me, I wore a cup, like a regular cup to protect my shit. One time I took a hit right there. It took me out for, like, thankfully it was in a practice. So it wasn't during a game. But it took me out for like thankfully was in a practice So it wasn't during a game, but it took me I like collapsed onto the floor and I did not want to be alive in that moment

Uh-huh, and I was like I never want to play a sport ever like I want to quit like I don't want to be here I don't want to be alive. I don't want to be a person it Hurt and I even had protection. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, like, I know like you would pick the bear over a man in the forest, but at the same time, like, don't forget that we have like a clear weakness. Like a very clear weakness. I mean, I guess bears have balls. Yeah. What if it's a female bear? And okay female bears are more likely to attack you than a male. So yeah Fuck it. Whatever. Yeah, but I'm just saying I was like protect yourself after that It took me like two weeks to like mentally recover to be ready to like get back into it back in the goal

Sorry, you're good. And I bought a hockey goalie cup so if you ever see a goalie you know those guys are padded as all hell and so I bought a cup of protector yeah yeah hockey so that shit was gigantic whenever everyone saw me put it on they were like what the fuck or like and like I was wearing shorts And you could just see the yeah, I did not care. I needed that no Because like no one's gonna do anything until like it happens to stop to them It happened to you and you're like, okay This is not enough like I need to upgrade to whatever the next thing is. Yeah, I was like no anyway

Where were we kick him in the balls? Yeah. Yeah one kick what one kick one one minute Yeah, I don't know where that roll came from. I just made it up in the spot Yeah, so yeah Kai take us away from Can't say California cuz you're kissing in California. Take us away from kidnapping. Hopefully that's not in your case. It's not.

Okay. Okay. I was like, oh shit. Like super water. Hydrate folks. Take this 20 seconds to breathe. Sit up straight. Hydrate folks, take this 20 seconds to breathe. Sit up straight. Hydrate.

Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. And acknowledge everything you're grateful for. Not having to stalker. I'm grateful for myself. I'm grateful for hockey goalie cups. Ha ha ha. Fair. All right.

Where are we off to? 11547 Braddock Drive, Culver City, California. Okay. Is where today's case takes us. So once again, we're giving people's addresses out. Yes, we are. My favorite part of podcasting. Yeah.

Culver City, California. It's also right in the LA area. Yours was, where was your case again? Right next to Anaheim. It's, I have a name already, but it was right next to Anaheim. Yeah, so pretty much I looked on the map. If Jay's town, if like Los Angeles is right in the center,

Jay's town is like over here, Jay's town is like over here and my town is like over here. Ah, something like that. Okay. Really close Culver City. It's also. Yeah. So 1154 seven Braddock Drive.

Isn't it unassuming, cheery yellow house in the Los Angeles County suburbs? Okay. You know what? Let me actually send you a picture in the chat of this house right now. I am curious about this house because- It's just a cute little house. Where's the picture?

Why do I not have the picture? And so, you know, inside of this cozy little house... Now, is it like a bright yellow house or is it the faded yellow house that we have on the third floor? No, it's like a bright yellow. Okay. So recently painted. Can you send this in this chat?

You can send it here, send it through text, send it through carrier pigeon. It'll get here eventually. Through carrier pigeon? Yeah. Let's see. I would love to train, like to learn how to train a carrier pigeon, like how to like get them to go where they have to. And then just have the carrier pigeon

know my friend's addresses, and just send random things to your guys' places. That would be so cool. I feel like we've talked about it on the podcast before. We have, on an Old News Nonsense. That's how pigeons are so sad, like what we did to them. Anyway, okay, yeah, I just sent you the image.

Let me know when it gets over. I'll let you know when I hear like a bird fly against the window. You know, like, and I'm like, oh, and see, I heard, your pigeon's here. Okay. So it's just like a cozy, okay, yellow house and we'll post all the pictures. Yeah, your typical house, yellow house. I still feel like it's a very common design for nowadays. Okay.

Inside of this cozy yellow house would lie the living nightmare that resident Doris Bither would have to endure. Bither. Bither. B-I-D? Bither. Bither. T-H-E-R.

Bither. Okay, I was like, okay. I said my T is weird. No, no, it's fine. It's fine. I just never heard that last name. You were talking about your case Do you were like Southern California Los Angeles County and you were like door and you said oh

You're gonna say Doris and I was like what I was like no Fair yeah Doris so first we'll talk about Doris herself, so She moved to California as a little girl with her family. There's really not much about early life and such. But from what I've been able to gather, she was about 10 years old. Oh, so it's a little girl we're talking about. Well, she was 10 when she moved to California. Got it, okay.

Yeah. That's so weird, sorry. I'm just thinking of like... I think sometime in the 50s. Okay, yeah. That's what I was gonna say. I was like, year. Okay. I find it a little weird that, like, you're gonna have a little, like, child, and you're like, oh, like, let's name her Doris. Or like, let's name her Agnes. I mean, it was like the 40s, 50s.

Yeah, yeah. But like, nowadays nowadays I find it a little bit odd. Nowadays, no. That's like a name for your grandma. Like that's not a child's name. No, I mean at some point it was. But like who names their kid Robert? Like Robert feels like such a grown man's name or something. I knew Robert in high school, but yeah, he went by Robert. But see I'm fine with names like that. Like an eight-year-old named Robert. Like what? I'm fine with that because you can make it short and you can call them Rob Rob Rob or Bob. Yeah Bob's not like how do we make? Tell me about Or is Doris Doris Bither?

So like I said, there's not really much about her early life, but from what I've gathered, she really wasn't dealt the greatest hand. Her parents weren't great. I'm not sure if they were a bit abusive, but there's lots of turmoil, lots of trauma from her childhood. She wasn't dealt the greatest hand. And especially that carries over because as an adult her life was

really falling apart. Oh. And like in more ways than just one. Yeah so this is about like I mentioned the 50s when she moves or so but then we'll jump to the 1970s when this case does take place. Okay. So Doris is in her 30s. She's the mother of four children born from four different fathers. No, Doris. Yeah. I mean, I'm glad you had fun, but.

Oh, I don't know if you could call it fun. No, no, no, no, like having the children, but like just in general. Like... Oh, no, I don't know. Well, cause okay, I don't think they were from, they weren't from like, they weren't from like a one night, they were from abusive relationships.

Oh, nevermind. Okay, I see what you're correct with me. She wasn't faring well. She was an alcoholic plagued by the trauma of not only her childhood, but also the repeat abuse that she would endure from continuing to jump around from one abusive relationship to another. Things were not good. She was not stable. This house was not a stable environment. It was already filled with so much trauma. There are ways they say that, you know.

Was she an alcoholic or her partners were alcoholics? She was an alcoholic. I'm sure both. I'm sure it was both. But I think she was also trying to get help. She was trying to take medications to help with her trauma, her illnesses. She wasn't just, she was trying something.

Sort of, but there was just everything going wrong. Like I said, that house is filled with so much trauma, the Doris house. And so she did live in the house that she moved into in Culver City with her four children, her three boys and her one girl. Okay, how old were they? So they witnessed all this as well. You'll get to it, you'll get to it, but. So they were, I believe it was 15, 13, 11, and 10.

Okay, and who was the youngest? Like where did the girl fit in? The girl was the youngest. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So the three boys, they were the oldest. The girl was the youngest.

Um, so they were there. They saw all of this and so their relationship with their mother wasn't great. They grew up with so much trauma as well. But the trauma got worse. Because on top of the people, on top of everything that was real, Doris also reported that there were entities in this house that they had moved into. In the house on Braddock Drive. Was that like...

reported as soon as you moved in? Like, did you see them during the open house? No, so... No, so... So... Entities, violent, evil spirits that were here, but of course, she, how could she have known that this would happen before she decided to move in? Was it like something that happened right off the bat?

Or like, did it take a while for that to kick in? No, so some reports say that soon after Doris moved in, there wasn't much that went on. However, it's places say that she was approached by an elderly lady. Like in her house or outside? Who knocked on her door. Yeah, knocked on her door one day to open up.

And so this lady said, quote, you need to get out. I used to live here in this old house back when it was just a farm and I was a little girl. There is something very evil here. This place is haunted and you need to get out." End quote. Okay. As soon as you said an old lady knock,

I'm like, this is a little like Beauty and the Beast moment. Like she's gonna get cursed. No, it was the previous owner. I don't know how I would feel about that. Would you move out? Like, immediately? Would you heed her wording or would you be like, what's this old lady talking about? This is the alley area.

It's hard. It's clever. It's hard to get a house in general. This is true. This is very true. She has four kids. I'm sure I'm maybe that was she single at this time or did she have like a fifth husband or fourth

husband? I mean I'm not she wasn't married but I'm not sure she was single she probably had guys in and out. Okay right but still I'm just like no you can get out. Yeah. However because if somebody if somebody knocked on your door into the house you just moved in and told you that, what would you do? Would you move out? I'm skeptic, but I also want to believe. So I would probably just take some safety precautions, like get the house blessed or something.

I was like, okay, cool. Like someone threw water around, did a little prayer. I'm good to go. Maybe, or maybe I to go, maybe. Or maybe I just pissed everything off. Well, there was this warning from this elderly lady. And it seems that her warning would be true. Of course, because then this wouldn't be a story.

It wouldn't be, no. At first it was normal poltergeist activity. Nothing... well, it was alarming for sure, but nothing too, like, harmful yet, I guess, in a way. What do you mean by normal poltergeist activity? So, like, objects levitating, shelves opening, strange smells and sounds, things like that. Just wanted you to tell the that. Like, forces pushing things. Just wanted you to tell the listeners. Yeah, yeah, of course. So like normal, like you, I don't know, a cup falling out of the shelf or things like that.

Fair. Invisible, not invisible, ghost cat just tipping a cup over. Yeah, so cute. If you guys have not listened to and that's why we drink podcasts, no, just kidding, okay. Listen, it's a great one. Yeah, give them a listen.

But, of course, it got worse. Eventually, Doris would claim that she would be physically attacked by the spirits in her home. It spanned from just bumps and pushes of her bumping into a spirit or throwing off balance. But eventually it worked its way to being physically attacked even worse. Doris? Yes, Doris. She would get grabbed and she would get thrown across the rooms. She even reported that she would actually be sexually assaulted. She would be raped by

the ghosts. And it wasn't just one, she said there were three spirits that were tormenting her. Oh God, how I wish it was the alcohol. So, I don't know what's worse though. Like, you can't, how do you protect yourself against a ghost that's coming to sexually assault you? Three of them. Yeah, three.

What she said is that she woke up in the middle of the night to feel herself being held down, pinned onto her bed. So it was two spirits, two of them pinning her down from both sides, and the third was the one that was on top of her assaulting her. And there was nothing she could do. And so this happened one night, but it just kept happening, continuing and continuing. It became more frequent.

It became more frequent. That is, no, okay, see, that would get me to move out. Yeah. Poultry guys, I can handle, that I would move out. Okay, whatever, yeah. That I would move out. Okay, whatever. Yeah. It's like Casper the fucking friendly ghost.

But yeah, these attacks became constant. Something not only Doris, but also her children would have to endure. Not that they were being sexually assaulted. Yeah, but they weren't being attacked somehow. But they were being attacked as well. They were being pushed and abused. Sometimes the children in some reports said that they even said that they would see apparitions

in the house, ones around their mom's door. So they reported they Yeah, go ahead. They had even seen her be thrown across the room. Yeah. As a child, I think that just leaves a mark. Especially when like, you don't see a person do it, you just see your mom get tossed against the room by something. Exactly.

Did they ever say, like Doris, or like the kids, what the apparitions looked like? Um, I will get into that. Okay, no fair. Yeah. Just a little bit. Sounds good. No, um. Don't let me pry too much.

So you mentioned they were like, how could they just sit there and watch their mom? They saw this. Well, one time the oldest son, he actually tried to intervene. So he saw his mom get grabbed by the arm and be pulled. So he actually himself tried to stop whatever was going on.

But what happened is he got grabbed by the spirit, thrown across the room and his arm broke. He got his arm broken. No. In the case. And that's one of the reports that one of the children gave. How do you even like tell your insurance that? I don't think they're thinking of insurance.

No, no, I know, I know. But I'm just thinking like if his arm was genuinely broken, like you have to take your child to the hospital. This is true. How do you explain it's like, yeah, my kid got tossed. I'm not entirely sure if that actually happened, right? That's just one of like the reports. Yeah, of course, of course.

I'm just curious that like how the situation was handled. But yeah, this was happening Doris her children and Dord they had to push through this survive But who could they turn to? The police no with what? Doris tried to talk to her friends Okay, nobody would believe them. Right? So in my head, if this is a movie in my head, I would want one of two things to happen. Either she goes out and she searches for the old lady that knocked on her door or the old lady like knocks on the door and

she's like, I told you. But it'd be kind of fun. Yeah. They're like, lady, we're sorry. Please help us. Yeah. I'm assuming that didn't happen. No, not at all. Okay. So nobody would believe them if they tried to turn to help because spirits, ghosts, what?

Like, who's causing you this harm. And not even necessarily the paranormal investigators that Doris eventually brought in would really believe them either. She brought investigators. She did. Okay. It actually, by all of the accounts that I've seen and researched, it seems that these investigators' involvement was purely by chance. Like she didn't intend for it to happen whatsoever. So by what I've read, one day it said that Doris went to a bookstore

that was near the University of California Los Angeles campus, the UCLA campus. And while she was there, she overheard some sort of lecture or just two men talking, I heard how two different accounts are said. But this lecture or this conversation was about paranormal activity and the men's research into it. So she kind of like overheard. Yeah. She overheard something. And she was like, oh my God, maybe they can help.

Yeah. So... Someone that like believes in this stuff. Yeah, or who has some knowledge about it at least. Um, she approached the men to get their help, not knowing that the two of them were men named Barry Taff and Carrie Gaynor. Should they ring a bell?

Okay. I'm not sure. I honestly hadn't heard of them. Okay. But that's just their names. Yeah. Okay. Even though that Barry and Kerry, which is a cool combo.

Yeah. But Barry and Kerry kind of were the most active paranormal investigators in the Los Angeles area in the 1970s So maybe we should know who they are. Okay Maybe we'll get to that they investigated over Over 500 paranormal cases. Oh, okay. So there's a hundred to five hundred So there's a good chance that this name will come up in the future? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

But yeah, Barry Taft and Kerry Gaynor, they were two parapsychologists, from what I researched, working at the now defunct parapsychology lab at UCLA. Got it. So there was actually a whole like study, like a whole community. It was a tiny community, like three people, but there actually was something. That's why it shut down. Yes. Barry and Carrie, they got right on it. They

thought this could be something. The opportunity of a lifetime to catch this evidence, right? They needed to be involved and find evidence of this haunting. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Do you know I don't even know if you know this or not You said like they lived to like 500 cases Yeah, something like that. Do you know if like those were done before? Doris or after or like including Doris? I'm not entirely sure I think Floating around however, this by far is their most Known case. Okay, got it. Yeah.

Okay. So maybe we might not come across her name again. Maybe, yeah, I'm not sure. But yeah, they needed to find evidence, especially because of how skeptical they were. Yeah. They really didn't believe Doris, Especially the reports of her being sexually assaulted by the entities because what? That's never really been heard of before.

How are spirits raping you? Yeah. You know? But she showed them the bruises. She showed them the physical marks left on her body of these things that she was reporting. Getting tossed around, you would have a few. Exactly. So they had to, right?

They were skeptical, but they went to the house, they visited anyway, and to begin their initial interview with Doris. And so with Doris. And so, both of these guys, Barry and Kerry, are both still alive today. And so- Okay. Do they still do paranormal research, investigations?

No, not really. They've both kind of moved on. However, people still reach out about their cases to try to get answers and things like that, especially this case, right? Yeah. So, from one case, right? Yeah. So from one article actually that was posted on Halloween this year, October 31st, 2024. Oh, this year.

I was reading through. So really... Okay. So they're definitely still like involved somewhat. Yeah, they are. Yeah. So there's actually a quote. So, there's actually a quote. So, it comes from Barry Taft, the lead parapsychologist on this. They said, quote, we went to see her at home with our 16 page questionnaire, but she refused to share key details, not even her age.

Wait, what? Yeah. So that's why I- I get like, don't ask a lady her age, but at this point it's like, you're the one asking for help, ma'am. You kind of have to like answer questions. Taff continued to say,

"'It was clear Doris was deeply unhappy, "'and maybe we would not have returned after a second visit even, when, without warning, a frying pan flew out from a cupboard directly at us. So they did get to witness something. They did. Ah. So like I mentioned, they were completely uninterested, right? They were skeptical, they were not believing this woman.

She was not compliant on this interview because she didn't want to share details, but of what they could gather, she was a very emotionally unstable lady who had lots of problems that could be convoluted things. Maybe just psychologically. Yeah, it wasn't something they felt they needed to spend their time doing. Until? Until a frying pan came flying. Yeah, yeah.

A flying cam. I guess it is technically a flying cam. A frying pan came frying out. Yeah. So they said, the article says, the team tore through the kitchen, suspicious that there were tricks involved, but of course they found nothing. They could not explain it whatsoever. Taff continues to say that the frying pan was only the first of many projectiles, cold spots, and floating luminous green lights that we witnessed over the 10 weeks we

spent in the house. Okay so because of that frying pan they stuck around and then they got to see all this other stuff. They did. So they saw this and they're like whoa okay this is real. Yeah. That began a 10 week long investigation. Okay. Over this span of 10 weeks, they brought in lots of equipment. Did they bring more people or is it just the two of them? At first it was just the two of them. They didn't need to blow it up and do a bigger thing.

They were a small team. It was really just the two of them at first. So, it was a, yeah a 10 week investigation. More quote from Barry Taft. He says, We arrived with scientific instruments, cameras and such, trying to collect evidence. This was real. But it was elusive. Things rarely happen when you're waiting for them.

After 50 years, I can say one thing. This was the real deal. It shook me then and now, and I still think about it a lot. Ah! I don't, I don't, ah! Mixed feelings because this woman is suffering, this woman is getting assaulted by a ghost, but also I'm like, it's like, it would be so cool

to be like, all this stuff is happening. It's so cool, I'm like, it would be so cool to be like, all this stuff is happening. It's so cool. But also like this woman is suffering. To actually get that real evidence? Yeah, yeah. Right? I tell people, I tell guests a lot.

I'm like, oh, you know, I'm still waiting for something to happen to me because I have skeptic tendencies, but I want a good story to tell. And I want to be like yeah ghosts are real I still want something more concrete like I'm on that. Oh, yeah, so me too I'm glad that this man got to put to put that out there for like listeners I guess I would consider myself a believer like I grew up believing in the paranormal and the spiritual and all of that

But I've just gotten a bit more skeptical over the last couple of years. So Yeah, yeah, and I would just say like I'm a believer but like if I don't know like I'm like skeptic But I want to believe There we go, but I think it's also like I'm a believer, but I'm skeptic Yeah, so I mean I'm on that boat So Yeah. So I mean, I'm on that boat. So, yeah, they went into this. They took pictures. Over this 10 weeks, they really didn't get all that much. Once again, it was, um, cold spots, lights, things like that.

They would interview the kids, and the kids would describe, um, a man that they would see. So, nothing really too detailed, but a man standing in the corner of the house who would maybe approach them, but then disappear. It seemed that, like, it was mostly revolving around... Doris. Doris. Yeah. Not the kids.

That's what it seemed like. Like the kids would see it happen and like nothing would happen to the kids unless they got involved. Yeah, yeah. Okay. And so there were all these small little details, but there really wasn't Anything right so they wanted to believe they wanted to be there So you asked if they brought in more people? Eventually they did because after what was pretty much the culmination of this investigation

They brought in It was a whole team. It was about 30 people, 30 investigators. Okay, I was expecting two, three more people, about 30? 30. And they wanted to do something kind of extreme to provoke these spirits. Was it a seance? To get them to show themselves.

Not really, it was a lot more rough. Ah. A seance? Not really, it was a lot more rough. Ah! Yeah. So, I don't have exact details, but apparently in this room that Doris was in, there was a bunch of cameras, high speed cameras, the most advanced stuff set up to capture pictures. And so there are a couple of pretty famous photos that are, or at least, Kater, this is that are circulating that are out there. Yes. So I mentioned it was a rough seance that they did.

Okay. Well, this rough seance is a rough kind of was not a seance at all. Okay. So they set up shop in the room. Photographers, everything. They had Doris sit in the bed in the middle of the room. No. And what they did is they had Doris literally just start yelling, cussing at the spirits, trying to call them by name, provoking them in any way to get activity going.

I wouldn't be comfortable with that. Yeah. That's crazy. Like, you're, you're, like, antagonizing this evil, these evil spirits who have been assaulting you. I don't know. I don't know. But yeah, go ahead. But apparently it worked.

Because lights started manifesting around the room. Okay. Apparently a greenish mist formed in the corner of the room. Okay. Just swirling and growing. Apparently, a man's torso became visible in the mist. Very large muscular figure in a way, which would match the muscular figure that she described the feeling of pinning her down to assault her okay So

None of this was ever actually captured Then it has didn't work. No nothing actually happened. What are you okay? However, there's one picture. No there has to be more than one There's this one picture that I have it on my computer. So let me actually also do it on discord. Okay, um, I just 30 people and they got one picture This seems like like some Loch Ness monster type of shit It is it is and so it was actually kind of funny.

The initial thing that pulled me into this case, like in the first place that got me into investigate it, was it was like, oh, the pictures we see of this case are like undeniable evidence of the paranormal. And I go and I'm like, what pictures? Like where are these pictures? And it's like one film photo. There are a couple of other Polaroid photos that I'll get into in just a little bit, but it's like, I was like

what? What am I looking at? Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So let me send you that image right now. I have this. And we'll post this as well on Instagram or wherever So it's just Poor Dora is sitting in a bed. Yes. It's her sitting on the bed. So it said Of course, you can see that arc of light that is perfectly just sort of encircling her right up above There was no light that was reported in the room Um, There was nothing that would cause the light to bend that way. And so they thought that was like her conjuring up the spirits and them sort of surrounding her there

in that image. I need more than one picture. Yeah, yeah. You're like your evil spirit. Yeah, yeah. They believe that maybe the reason these entities and the spirits were so violent only really to her was because of her addictions and her trauma and her refusal to deal with that properly. So there was so much negativity and so much hurt and pain that she was feeling not only for herself but also caused her children around as well.

So they saw her like as a beacon for like, maybe evil like entities have a thing. Yeah, something like that. But it didn't happen until she moved into this house. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I mentioned that there were a couple of Polaroid photos that they had taken as well. So these were taken earlier on in the investigation.

At one point, apparently, when they were doing their investigation, Barry and Carrie, one of Doris's friends, she was a woman named Candy. She apparently was a psychic. She actually was invited in by Barry and Carrie and by Doris to help out. And so they did a whole experiment where Candy would be in the house. And she could, of course, feel the spirits or see them, whatever her psychic capabilities were. And she would point out, she'd be like, oh, the spirits there, the spirits there. And every time they would take photos of where she was pointing.

Now, in this case, one time she said, the spirit is right in front of my face. That was the exact quote. It's right in front of my face. She said that twice, referring to a spirit that she detected. And so they'd snapped the photos on the Polaroid. And so I'll send you

this photo right now as well. Yeah. So these are the three Polaroid photos. The first two are the ones they capture when she said, oh, it's right in front of my face. The third one was sort of their control photo that was taken. Oh, before they started. Actually after. Oh, whoa. It was taken right after she said that the entity was gone.

Okay. Actually after oh, well, you can write after she said that the entity was gone Okay, and so you can see that when the entity was there. There's this light and it was blinding I was watching out but yeah one in the control photo when the entities gone There's nothing okay. I also see a Ouija board in her hand Yes So they definitely did did use some tools in this investigation. Yeah So So they definitely did use some tools in this investigation. Yeah. So, based off of the evidence that they received, right, Barry and Carrie said, hey, it's probably best if you get out of here. You don't stay. Because they really couldn't help, they couldn't do anything.

This is why I have mixed feelings when investigators get involved. Because there's the investigators that will show up, they will do their investigation, and they're like, You should move out. And I'm like, no, I hired you because I want to stay. Yeah. Yeah. Like, you're here like kind of help me and get rid of this Yeah, if I wanted to like move out I would have done it from the day it happened Yeah, so they were told to move out Doris and her family took the advice They they went to live in Texas. Okay, and they got a home there

Did anything follow them? Seems so because Dora said that the attacks actually didn't stop She continued to be you know assaulted Eventually the family just kind of disappeared not like actually disappeared But you know the media the limelight, it was off of them at this point, it faded. And then Doris did eventually pass away in 1999. Poor Doris.

She never got the help she wanted. There's some theories that say that maybe it wasn't the house that was haunted, right? Mm-hmm. It was Doris. Like I said, maybe she would like they were like maybe she's a beacon. She is like the entity because of her trauma and so it followed her to Texas when she moved. So maybe it was at the house, but it followed her once she left. Yeah, who knows?

That could make sense as well. Not sure. I feel bad for her kids. Yeah, they had to take it, they had to deal with it really hard and just had to move on. Because I imagine they're like, okay, we're leaving California, we're going to Texas.

And then they still see their mom get attacked. They're like, oh, like we can't run away. There's really not much detailed after they moved to Texas because like I said people just stopped talking yeah care about it anymore um they got what they wanted yeah I guess so um but after this there have been really no reports of any hauntings at the Culver City house it seems like seems like it did follow her to Texas. The current owners of the house they claim they've never witnessed anything strange. I'm very okay because my head is thinking that maybe there was something in that house because

the previous owner gave her a warning. Maybe. And it just left with her and that's why the new people haven't really that's probably what it is That's that seems to make the most sense. Yeah But also because of this skeptics to have torn in this case apart, right? They've been oh, I'm sure I like I was already Like not believing like come on 30 people in one picture Mm-hmm like and that's the thing a lot of them Are just saying oh, there's so much confirmation bias you guys weren't able to like actually produce evidence You know you believe you wanted to believe these things right here So that's what you're you know looking for in the pictures when it's not actually existing

Yeah, I mean I do appreciate them taking a control picture, but at the same time I'm like it's just a bright picture. Or even just simply misuse of the equipment. Yeah, yeah definitely. When they when they took those Polaroid photos they actually also had a different film camera or it was a infrared light camera that they were using. And so these infrared photos I haven't been able to find them not really on there but they didn't turn out great they had some like weird visual anomalies on them but Barry and Carrie literally admitted that it was because they weren't even using the camera properly so like there is actual

Evidence that these guys maybe weren't the most prepared for this Yeah, this is probably why we won't hear their names again because you know probably all 500 cases are just like this yeah And so I actually found another article It's from a website called the skeptical inquirer Okay It's a closer look at the entity photographs so it actually does kind of go into a bit of a Dive if you will into the photographs. Yeah, so

a dive, if you will, into the photographs. Yeah. So, um, first I guess it talks about the Polaroid photos that I sent. Um, and so maybe when we're editing this, maybe we can put like, I don't know, on our video. Yeah. Like just for like up in the corner or something like that. I don't know. That could be cool. Yeah, we can do that. We can just like have it like. Or even just flash them on the screen for a bit. or something like that. I don't know. That could be... Yeah, we can do that. We can just have it like... Or even just flash them on the screen for a bit. Or like, yeah.

My dumbass, it's like I'm trying to be like here and then trying to put my hand on your screen and I'm like, wait, why is my hand not showing up? Oh, man. Yeah, but I know. Yeah, yeah. We can pop them here and like there. Yeah, okay, cool. And then we'll also put them on Instagram and stuff

if you're not watching. Yeah, of course. Instagram website we'll also put them on Instagram and stuff if you're not watching. Anyway, so they said that they actually ended up taking, Barry and Terry, they took 13 total photographs on the Polaroid. They took 13 Polaroids. Only six of, or, only six out of those 13 were actually fully, or, only six out of those 13 were actually fully... Developed? Sorry, wait, what am I reading?

No, you're good, you're good. Yeah, okay, six of the 13 were way overexposed, so not even able to see anything. It's just white. Yeah. Six additional photos, he said, they were taken as control images. Okay.

But, and they all came out normal, right? Something like that. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but there are those three photos that I sent of the Polaroids. And the first thing they say is, quote, there is an obvious problem when comparing these three images side by side. The two entity photos made use of the flash while the control image only used

the ambient light in the room. I kind of was thinking as like, it looks like there's like a flash, but. Yep. So there was, or at least that's the theory. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm like, it's just light.

Yeah. They also dive into how you can clearly see the hard shadows on the photo that are only cast by a bright light, like a flash coming right in front. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so because of this flash, because of how dark it was, and because Candy was like a white woman, easily just overexposeosed her, washed her out and everything. They even had like professional photographers review these,

the flash way too strong, way overexposed. There was no flash on the control photo. So really these are... I mean, they could be, but they are very easily debunked, right? Yeah. Yeah. They actually did a test. They tried to recreate this. They got the same exact Polaroid camera model that they used, and they... Did the similar thing?

They did the same thing. So, what they did is they took a control photo, no flash normal, and then for the next one they turned on the flash, they turned up the exposure a bit, and then you can see it recreated the exact same thing. He's in front of me type of thing. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. They tried.

The author of this article actually did contact Kerry Gay, uh, Carrie Gaynor, one of the people. And so Gaynor said, quote, the pictures were shot within about 30 seconds of each other. No exposure adjustments were made. Also remember her exact words were, it's right in front of my face. The face was obliterated, but the rest of her body was not. In addition, we could still see the curtains behind her at the same level as her head Okay, and it's like a look at this pictures again. Okay. Well, yeah, you could see the Curtains, but that's because they're further in the background and they're darker. They're not gonna get washed out like her face

That's true. I do see that but I also see you. Yeah. Yeah But then yeah, we'll go to the next photo. Also at this point, how old are you? Can't you just say that you fucked up? Yeah, like you're, yeah, I don't know. To the- What's online, your reputation? The other photo that I talk about,

the black and white one with that arc of light around her. Um, so when, what is it? So there was actually an interview of Barry Taft back along, I think it was like 2011 or so, he said, quote, that in the, not quote yet, but in the thing where they did the 30 people in the room, she brought in those spirits. Barry Taft says, quote, Doris was cowering on the bed beneath the lights that were flying around her in a mad fray.

And there was no picture of that. So he's saying that she was cowering, but in the picture we see she's sitting down fine on the bed. Was that picture before the lights? I have no clue, right? Yeah. I need that time stamp. Yeah. Barry also said that during this thing there were black poster boards up on the wall, like posters.

And so they would cover them with like white duct tape to create grids. And there are other like number and magnetic orientation identifications on the wall. And so all these things up on the wall were installed prior to this seance. Yeah, they did However in this photo, oh, they're not there. There's nothing on the walls. Oh Like I said this men are no longer doing this for a living I don't know if they ever made a living out of this Yeah, their ego And then to take it further This person was looking at the arcs of light in the photo. They likely are strands of hair that are caught in the flash.

Oh, okay. And so they just kind of broke it. So they actually, once again, the author of this article recreated it They put a strand of hair in front of the picture they took and same causes the same type of streak of light See I am fine with like we debunk things like this cuz I'm like, yeah But I Felt bad for this woman though, because she like really her trust in them. Right? And also it's like... I want to believe her. Yeah, same.

I want to believe these experiences, and I honestly would believe it if it wasn't for Barry and Carrie very clearly being kind of shady about this whole investigation process. That also makes me very like, I don't trust them. Yeah. But I do feel better. A lot of people actually kind of wish that Ed and Lorraine Warren got involved in this case. I thought you were gonna bring them in. Because they feel like Ed and Lorraine could have helped out so much more.

Yeah, they probably wouldn't have told her to move. They probably would have like brought in like a priest or someone or something and like they would have like Removed whatever was like around her but yeah Anyway That's where I end my story no, I I don't mean to debunk everything and ruin your expectations Honestly, even with debunking this I'm'm still not set on like, oh, this is not real. I still kind of, like there's some like reality to it that I kind of wish we could explore more.

Same, especially like the kids' perspective. I wanna know more of like what they've seen, what they've heard, what they felt, smelled, I don't know, just like everything. Anyway, listeners, let us know what you think. We should be able to post these photos somewhere and you can review them yourself. Yeah, we usually just have you guys. Let us know what you think and what you think of this.

But yeah, that is the story, that is the Doris Bither case or the the entity haunting Doris Bither case. It's actually called the entity haunting because this inspired the movie The Entity. Have not seen it. I have not seen it either. So maybe it seems like it's maybe like an older movie. Maybe I'll be like, Hey, O'Mara, have you watched the entity? Yeah, if it's black and white he probably has yeah

I like calling it the Doris Bither case. Yeah Give her some credit cuz she put it with a lot. She put a little through was put through a lot. Yeah Yeah, even if like it wasn't she put up with like this people and then 30 people in the room tell her to like scream Mm-hmm. Yeah crazy. Yeah, she put up with the dead and the living She did Well, that's all we've got for you folks Two cases being here Two stories. I don't know what I was gonna say. No, yeah

Yeah, yeah. Anyway, um, thank you for listening. Yeah for being here. Have a great night or whenever you're listening to this a morning day Yeah, good. Have a good blackout whenever you're listening to this. A morning day. Yeah, good. Have a good blackout after you're drinking. Happy holidays. Yes. Merry Christmas if you celebrate Christmas. Happy Hanukkah. And I forgot what else.

And all of the other holidays that happen around this time. And that's why I said happy holidays because we love everybody here. Yeah. Unless you're from Alabama. Well, I mean, that's like a generalization. Maybe there were some cool Alabamian people. Oh, now you're taking back your previous statement. -♪ LAUGHS SOFTLY? -♪

Maybe. Okay, see, we learn, we grow, and we can change our minds, folks. We can. Though if at some point we said something that was wrong, let us know. And unlike this investigators, we will admit we were wrong. Maybe. Yeah. Like, I will. I can't promise. I can promise for myself.

I can't promise for other people. But yeah. Thank you, y'all. We'll be back next episode, obviously. And that's a wrap. Cool. Smurf. Bye.

Thanks for listening to Chambers of the Occult. For photos, sources, and anything else mentioned during the episode, check out our website at chambersoftheoccult.com. You'll find everything you need there if you do find yourself wanting more. You can also follow us on all of our socials at Chambers of the Occult and on Twitter at C O T O Podcast. If you have any questions, comments, recommendations, personal anecdotes, or concerns, let us know. Fill out our contact form on our website, email us at chambersoftheoccultatgmail.com,

or leave us a message on our socials. We would love to hear from you. And if you enjoyed what you heard, we would greatly appreciate it if you could drop a like, leave a comment, and subscribe. It is absolutely the best way to show your support, and it would mean the world. Until next time. Thanks for watching!