Chambers of the Occult - EP# 27 Criminal Masterminds and Cursed Shores: The Great Train Robbery of 1963 and Poveglia, Venice’s Haunted Island

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

On this episode of Chambers of the Occult, we're diving into two very different tales —one of calculated crime, the other of supernatural terror. J kicks things off with a breakdown of The Great Train Robbery of 1963, one of the most daring heists in British history. A band of clever criminals managed to stop a Royal Mail train in its tracks—literally—and walk away with millions. It was a heist so well-planned, it could have been straight out of a movie. But as we all know, fortune doesn’t always favor the bold. From secret hideouts to unexpected betrayals, find out how their grand scheme unraveled.Then, just when you think you can breathe easy, Kai takes us across the world to the eerie waters of Venice, where Poveglia Island looms in the mist. Used as a dumping ground for plague victims, later transformed into a notorious asylum, and now completely abandoned, this island is considered one of the most haunted places on Earth. Screams echo through the empty buildings, spirits of the tormented refuse to leave, and some say the very soil is mixed with human ash. It’s a place so terrifying that even fishermen won’t sail too close.Criminal masterminds and cursed shores—this episode has a little bit of everything. So settle in, dim the lights, and prepare for a journey into the shadowy corners of history.Send us a text

Simple question to start off, a little random maybe, but it'll get us into the feel of the story. Kai, how much do you know about trains? I know that they're cool and that they're loud and that the little railroad crossy thingies that come down and it's like ding ding ding ding when the train's passing by. But then sometimes a train just doesn't show up. And you're like where the fuck is it? Anyway, that's about as far as I know about trains. Fair. Cool. I don't know a lot about trains.

I know I like riding trains and that's about it. Same thing that you mentioned, they're loud and those crossy things. So this next question is irrelevant. It's more for the listeners, but if anything, it's kind of what we're going to be talking about, because I was going to follow up, it's like, great, you know about trains, great, you don't know about trains. Chambers of the occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Hello. Hello. And you're frozen. Yeah, so you saw that. Yeah, you were like really frozen at the time. Yeah, I was like that's normally not as long as I thought.

Yeah, I was like, that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like, that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought.

Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought.

Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as I thought. Yeah, I was like that's not as long as saw that. Yeah, you're like really frozen at the moment. Yeah, I was like, that's normally not as long as I'm frozen. It's like half a second or something. Hi, we're back. We're back. It's us. I'm Kai. I'm Jay.

And this is... Your favorite podcast. I was going to say Tea Time Tuesday, but now, yeah. Chambers of the Occult. Yeah, it is Tuesday. Yeah, we always report on Tuesday. Yeah, for now. You know.

Well, not always. But... Yeah. Today we do. Yes. First episode in a couple of weeks. We've been busy. We've been sick.

Lots of stuff happening. Yeah. Sorry about that., we've been sick, lots of stuff happening. Yeah, yeah. But we've been alive. So if you've been following us on like social media, you know we've been alive, we've been posting. Yeah, we've been we've been having a lot of fun lately. Some would say too much. Like for a couple of days. Yeah. Like two weeks ago at this point. But yeah, we're doing good. How are you all doing? Thanks for being here. Tune in back in.

Yeah. Got some stories. It's a good start of the year, but it's a little slow podcast recording-wise. To you guys, on the outside, it maybe looks a little slow, but to us we've been busy like we've got Lots of stuff that's happened if anything. I'm surprised that we're still in January because so much has happened Yeah, no on the one hand. I'm surprised. We're still in January, but on the other. I'm like whoa How is it gonna be February already? We're already a month into this year? Mm-hmm. That's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I got like the notification on my phone How is it gonna be February already? We're already a month into this year.

That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. I got the notification on my phone. It's like, hey, a year from now. And it showed me a picture of the dancing plague. And I was like, oh, that was a year from now, wow. Yeah, wow. So, time flies. On today, I got the Spotify notification.

It was my playlist in a bottle that I created last year 2024. I was like, what the hell? I forgot about this complete. Uh-huh. I thought about all of it and it was like it was just really fun Thanks technology for reminding me how time works No, seriously, like without without my fucking like watch that shows me like the time like I Don't fucking know anything You just be going day to day Seriously, yeah, I think it's why I try to like write things in my calendar So like when I look I'm like, okay, like I am having like an active life

Even if it's just like I know not back to back type of thing Yeah life even if it's just like not back to back type of thing. Yeah. I'm trying to do better about like jotting down like things and keeping track of the stuff that I'm doing. Like I have a little whiteboard calendar that I've been meaning to put up on my wall right here in front of me for like a couple weeks now it's just been sitting in its package. No fair. It's like it's at some point you'll get there. Yeah yeah yeah yeah 100%. Half of the work is having the product. It is a Slytherin mug Okay, that's sick

Loud and proud and if you have an issue with it, well, it's her podcast start your own podcast to complain about us I've got a hard Mountain Dew Baja Blast. I was gonna ask if that was Mountain Dew It's a alcoholic Mountain Dew. Ooh. Oh. I don't have my alcohol bottle on hand. If you like Mountain Dew Baja Blast and you are of drinking age, you should try these hard Baja Blasts. They're really good.

Like, they taste exactly like Baja Bls. Like it's kind of dangerous. So That's always the danger with alcohol Yeah, the good ones are the dangerous ones. Like 5% So it's like- I mean and you're also home. So like what's the big deal of drinking at home? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well not to rush you and do it whenever you're ready I know you've got a lot to go over. I'm starting to feel a little bit rush. So okay. I'm sorry. I'm sorry No, no, no, I'm gonna take a minute. I'm gonna take a breather We I know we usually breathe at the end of the episode but like you put it in. Yeah. Yeah deep breath out

Practice your breathing folks. Yeah. yeah. The more you breathe, breathe. I was gonna say the more you live. So but correlation does not equal causation. Well, I mean, technically, the more you breathe, the more you live is correct. Because in order to live, we need to breathe oxygen. Yeah. So yeah. Hey folks, you are now manually breathing. Biology with J and Kai. Or something like that. Yes. I did great in biology. No, I didn't. I'm a liberal arts major. And, and now we'll get into the story.

Yeah. All right. Great. So, like always, I'm gonna start off with a question. Feel free to answer. Although I don't think you've ever denied to answer questions like, Plet the Fifth or anything like that.

Let's hope to keep it that way. Simple question to start off. A little random maybe, but it'll get us into the feel of the story. Kai. Okay. How much do you know about trains? I know that they're cool, and that they're loud, and that the little railroad crossy thingies that come down and it's like

When the trains passing by yeah, but then sometimes a train just like doesn't show up Yeah, where the fuck is it? Anyway, that's about as far as I know fair cool. Um, I don't know a lot about trains I know I like riding trains and that's about it. Same thing that you mentioned, they're loud and those crossy things. So this next question is irrelevant. It's more for the listeners, but if anything,

it's kind of what we're gonna be talking about because I was gonna follow up. It's like, great, you know about trains. Great, you don't know about trains. But have you ever heard of the Glasgow to London Royal Mail train? That's a mouthful. Let me slow it down. Glasgow to London Royal Mail train. No. Still no. Got it. Okay. Sometimes this is known as the night mail. And I'm going to give you a little history about this train before we get into it because

it's like all centered around this train in case you want to start making your theories of what we're going to be talking about. Train? But, yeah. of what we're going to be talking about. Trains? Yeah. So, this was the dedicated mail train service that transported postal cargo between Glasgow, Scotland, and London, England. Okay. So, that's where we're going today. We're going over the Great Pond.

And this train played a crucial role just delivering mail effectively overnight. It just ensured that letters and parcels reached their destination quickly. It was introduced in the 19th century. It was fast and reliable. And it was famously featured in the 1936 documentary film, Night Mail. Have not watched it. Will I watch it? Probably not. Probably not.

Produced by GPO Film Unit with a narration from a poem by W.H. Auden. In case there's any like movie or train like fans out there, you know. Yeah, I definitely know who those people are. I didn't even bother picking them up. I thought you were very sure of us, whoever you are. With trains and narration.

Yeah, anyway, the train operated for over 106 years. Damn. Yeah. Long, long, long, old train. It's currently no longer in use. It's just kind of, you know, no longer efficient as we figure it, of course. But that's all I wanted to get started with

because now for the opening hook, as I have't read words. So imagine this. You're aboard a train speeding through the English countryside in the dead of night because that's when the mail was delivered. So you're hauling millions of letters and it's just another You're hauling millions of letters, and it's just another routine journey from Glasgow to London, and then suddenly the train breaks to stop. The signal ahead glows red. Something's wrong. But before you can react, masked figures swarm the train, cutting off all communication. No guns, no explosions, just precision.

In less than an hour, they disappear into the night, leaving behind a stunt crew to what would be one of the greatest heists in history. A train heist. A train heist. A train heist. So this is the incredible story of the great train robbery of 1963. But that night the train wasn't just transporting mail, it was also trans- not translating. It was also translate, trans, not translating. It was also trend traveling with cash, with hard cash, 2.6 million pounds at the time. Nowadays, that's about 60 million pounds.

Wow, a lot of money. Now this would be to what many would consider an inside job. So let's get into the case. Because pre-robbery, like let's pretend it's like a flashback, like do do do do do do do do. Like all great stories it starts with the whispered idea of London's criminal underworld. The Royal Mail train robbery wasn't a spontaneous crime. It was more like a film script that had been like passed around for years, waiting for the right director to bring it to life. The mastermind behind this was named Bruce Reynolds. Now, Bruce Reynolds was a sophisticated criminal.

He was in your run of the mill, corner street thief and things like that. Yeah. He dined in expensive restaurants. He wasn't born into luxury, but he grew up in a war-torn England during World War II. Like his escape from reality was the movies, Dreaming of Adventure. And by the age of 32, he had transformed himself into what he called a quote unquote, professional thief. He specialized in non-confrontational crimes.

So he wasn't interested in violence. He just wanted what a lot of people considered like, El Dorado, but he wanted to people considered like El Dorado. But he wanted to find whatever his El Dorado would be. Got it. Now, he's the mastermind. And this was a very, very successful heist. So who was the dream team that, you know, got together that...

I would like to know. So it was going to be a total of 15 men, each chosen for their specific skills. And I don't have a list of all the men, but I do have a couple of their names and why they were picked. Okay. First off, we have Gordon Goody. Yes? Yeah, good name. Yeah, go on. Gordon Goody.

He was the muscle man. I should have let you swallow it before I continued. Okay. He was the muscle he was known for his short temper and intimidation tactics, you know The name just does not make you think that no Then we have Ronnie Biggs He was a small-time crook. Good question. Don't know. Sure I can find out.

But he was a small-time crook. He was tasked with finding a train driver. Because they were going to be like, we're going to take over this train. We need to bring our own train driver. Oh, they planned on taking over the train. Okay. Yep. Yep. Now, I'm not gonna say that Ronnie was bad at his job, but he could have been a little more prepared. And we'll get into that later.

Then we also have Buster Edwards. Yeah, you know, dream team. These are the names for them. Wow. He was the smooth talker. Charming enough to talk his way out of trouble. Yes. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. Get my camera focus. And then we have Charlie Wilson. He was... No normal name so far. Well, he was the Silent Man. Okay. Whose reputation just made people nervous. And then we have Roger Cordury.

He was the railway expert who had already pulled off six train robberies. Oh, shit. So Roger was not new to this. I'm assuming none of them really were but Roger was like the most experienced when it at least came to Robin Train. He had actually done this before. And then we have, ready for this? No. Pop. Okay. Was he like... Go ahead. Go ahead. Go on. No, no.

What's your credit? Go ahead. I was like, was he like the like old wise look, like man, like mastermind of planning? He was quote unquote wise. He had some knowledge because he was a mysterious retired train driver. Oh wow. It was a mysterious retired train driver. Oh wow. Whose real identity remains unknown to this day.

He turned into Darkseid. Just part of the 15 people that were on the dream team. And this was a three month preparation. Damn. This wasn't like, hey that's a nice train let's go stop it and see what they have in there. No they took three months into this train heist. Well yeah I mean good for them honestly. Yeah I mean 60 million pounds equivalent, 60 million yeah, equivalent nowadays. So for three

months this gang planned what they would hope would be the perfect crime. And the attention to detail was above and beyond. Reynolds personally joined a fishing club near Bridge-o-Bridge. Bridge-o-Bridge, yep. Just to study the location without raising suspicion because the train would often pass by there. So he's like, oh, fishing club. Let me go scout the area out without raising, you know, eyes. That's actually really smart of him.

Yeah. They also film train schedules and movements. They wanted to know the... Okay. The ins and outs. Yeah. The gang also had inside information about which trains carried the most cash. How? Like, did they have like an inside man or something like that? They had an inside man.

Got it. They also chose the perfect spot between two of the cities that the train was traveling between. It was remote area, quiet, ideal for their plan. They even practiced their timing repeatedly, like actors rehearsing for a play. Oh, okay. So, it's like, we gotta get this down to the minute. And now we move on to the night of the heist. August 8th, 1963. So let's set the stage.

Okay. So let's set the stage. It was 12, 12 a.m. and as the Royal Mail train left Glasgow, two railway employees had no idea that they were about to become part of criminal history. Jack Mills, a 57-year-old engineer with decades of experience, and David Whitby, a 27 year old fireman. The train was carrying an unprecedented 2.6 million pounds of cash. Far more than usual due to a bank holiday in Scotland. So normally they didn't even travel with that much, but this was a holiday. It was a holiday, so they were having a lot more money, and they knew that because of their inside info.

The inside man. Yep. So despite this fortune on the train, there wasn't a single armed guard on board this train at the time. Okay. Because they weren't expecting it to be like attacked or anything. Yeah, no. As far as I know, nobody knew there would be that much money being carried either. So they're like, we don't make a public knowledge that we're traveling with cash. And also, it hasn't happened in the past. Why would we worry about it now?

I guess so. Yeah. It hasn't happened in the past. Why would we worry about it now? I guess so. Yeah So at 2 45 a.m The robbery itself played out like a military operation Okay, but there was some crucial mistakes Always so first off the gang tampered with the signals using sophisticated battery powered systems. And when Whitby went to check the signal, he was ambushed and dragged down to the embarkment. Whitby was one of the two people on the train. Yeah. So right off the bat, the lights are tempered, they go off. Yep. Now Mills, shown remarkable bravery, he fought back against the masked man with an iron pipe.

So he was like, nope. Oh, yeah. Yeah. However, their first major problem was their recruiter driver, Pop. He had experience with trains, many trains. Just not this modern diesel locomotive. So... Well, that doesn't really make that much sense to me. Because if he was so methodical, if they were so planned out, so methodical about this, wouldn't they have known the model of train it was and they could have had Pop study up on it a bit more?

You would think they would, or at least replace Pop with someone else. Something like that. That's weird. That's an oversight. So what ended up happening during this time is that because Jack Mills, he was trying to like protect himself, fighting with an iron pipe, at some point they say that they knocked Jack Mills out, but because Pop couldn't navigate the train, they had to wake Mills back up, and they're like, hey, like, wake the fuck up, we need you.

That's so embarrassing. Yes. That's so, imagine you're like in a heist, you like knock out the fucking driver of the train, and you're like, oh shit, we don't know what to do. You like wake him up, and you're like, out the fucking driver of the train and you're like, Oh shit, we don't know what to do. You like wake him up and you're like, drive the train. Yes.

Yes. Like you guys don't know how to fucking drive the train and like, just shut up, shut the fuck up and drive the train. Now Mills was injured during this time because he also got like a blow to the head. So this man was injured and he was like somewhat, you know, being like, like a, you know being like Like a like a hostage and they're like we need you to like drive this train and he's like But it's just

Even with all this stuff just within 30 minutes. They transferred 128 mail bags weighing over two and a half tons with the cash in them. God damn. Two and a half tons of cash? Yes. That's a lot. It took them 30 minutes. I mean there was 15 of them so I assume that made it easier but still that's a lot. That is a shit ton, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, of course, it was their payday. But this is where things tend to go wrong. Because, so the train was the locomotive, it was like the cash, and then the mail. And they're like, the mail is just gonna slow us down Detach those carts which they did and that wasn't the issue the issue was that when they took the cash They rented a farmhouse to go hide out for a while Which was 27 miles from the crime scene and

The gang made some errors that would lead to their downfall couple things first off when the cops involved, when like the authorities got involved, they were trying to figure out, okay, where can they be? And as soon as they found out that the cops were after them, they're like, we need to leave the fort now. Like we can't stay in this farmhouse longer. We have to get the stuff and we have to get the fuck out. And they said, they pointed to one of the 15 people,

like that was part of the dream team, and they're like, your job is to burn the farmhouse down when we're gone. Because they didn't want fingerprints left behind. Of course, destroy the evidence. Exactly. So, a couple things that they did while they were in there, because, surprise surprise, someone did not burn the farmhouse down. Idiot.

Because he decided to say, you know what, fuck it, I'm gonna go run away, get a head start. Okay. No, he should have burned the farm head start. Okay. No, he should have burned the farmhouse down. Yeah. What was he thinking? So, let me paint you an idea of how cocky these people were in the farmhouse after they got the money because they were playing Monopoly. But they were playing Monopoly with the money they stole.

So they were using real cash instead of Monopoly? They were using real cash? I would love to play Monopoly with real cash one day. That would be so fun. Yeah, yeah. And of course, they left their fingerprints everywhere. Ah, yep. Yep.

So instead of staying just one day at the farmhouse to collect their things and go, they remained for several days, which was not the original plan. They also left behind food, drinks, personal items, all which of course would have their fingerprints. Yeah. And like I said, most crucially,

they failed to burn down the farmhouse, which left all the evidence there. How, now it's- That's like rule number one of community crime. And they knew it. They just gave it to the wrong guy. They should have given that role to Pops. That's so stupid.

Yeah. Pops would have at least known how to burn something down. Yeah. Destroy your evidence, guys. Don't just leave it lying around everywhere. What the fuck? Yeah. So, what followed was one of the most extensive police investigations in Britain's history. And right off the bat, because the news, of course, heard of the story of, oh my god, this train got broken

into robbers took all his money. Yeah, money gone. News travels fast and they jumped to conclusions. They said, oh, I forgot how it happened. But at some point they're like, oh, like the thieves are within a 30 mile radius of where the train was stolen. The cops didn't know how they came up with those 30 miles. Yeah. But it was accurate enough.

They were 27 miles away from where they stole the train. Oh, wow. Oh, it's because at some point they found, they talked to someone that they caught or something that said that they should leave in like 20 something minutes, like 15 minutes. And they're like, oh, that's like 15 minutes to get there, 15 minutes to get back. So it's like, that's 30 minutes. The newspaper confused 30 minutes with 30 miles, but it wasn't far off in either way. Anyway, it was like a lucky coincidence. It was like a lucky coincidence when the newspaper reported 30 miles, okay?

Now by the end of 1963 13 of the robbers were in custody Wow, so they had done quite a good job like I said he they left all their foot like not footprints fingerprints behind Quite a good job, like I said. They left all their footprints, like not footprints, fingerprints behind. By 1965, Ronnie Briggs made a spectacular prison escape using a rope ladder. So even though he was caught, he was like, I'm not staying here. I'm like, fuck it, I'm out of here. Yep. By 1968, Charlie Wilson was found living in luxury in Canada.

So that's where he was caught. Bruce Reynolds was finally caught after five years on the run. Now, Bruce Reynolds, very just interesting. I was able to find an interview with his son. Because his son was very young when this all happened. He was like two years old, three years old at max. Yeah. And he said that like, he thought that his dad worked for the cops or for the government. He thought that his dad was a good guy. Interesting. Okay. And that they often moved, like they went to Mexico, to like Spain, to different places. Eventually they ran out of cash in Spain, if I'm correct, and they came back to England,

because Bruce Reynolds was going to partake in another robbery. Um... Anyway, so he says that he does remember that one morning, or one night, he heard a knock at the door, and that the dad just told him to go get it. At this point, the son was about like four years old, four or five years old. Yeah. He opened the doors.

He told his four or five year old son to answer the door. Yeah. At that point, the door swings open, a bunch of like cops are in there. This five year old is not scared because he thinks that his dad works with the cops. Oh yeah, these are the good guys. Exactly, they're like, oh they're the good guys, just like my dad. Exactly. They run into the house, they run upstairs, they run to find his dad. Once again, the five-year-old doesn't know that anything's wrong. He thinks like, oh, like maybe it's an emergency. He doesn't know that anything's wrong until he hears his mom start to cry. And that's when like, oh no, like something's wrong. Eventually the dad, like they drag,

it's one of those movie scenes where like they're dragging the dad away, but for some reason they give him just like 10 seconds to say goodbye to his son. Look at the son and be like, I'm so sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, like, they take him. And of course, after that, like, he no longer lived in luxury and things like that. It was just a couple of clips that I saw from the interview, but it was really cool how, like, he spoke from his point of view. He's like, no, like, as a kid, he was a hero for me. Anyway, in 2001, Ronnie Briggs, then a celebrity fugitive, he's found in Brazil. S-Celebrity fugitive. Such a Korean concept.

Yeah. I mean, and he volunteerily returned to Britain. And he volunteerily returned to Britain. Now, beyond the missing millions, because out of all the cash they took, they did not recover all the money. So, they took 2.6 million dollars. How much do you think they recovered? Like the police recovered? Yeah. 2.6 million?

They probably recovered like, like a few hundred thousand. You're not far off. Okay. 400,000. 400,000. So there's still 2.2 million dollars out there. Wow. Wow.

I mean they probably hid it, they spent it, they, you know, put it overseas, whatever. Yeah, no, what I read is that after they like divided the money between like the dream team, like everyone got their cut. Nowadays with inflation, it would have been like two million dollars something that they each got. So it was a big, big heist. Some believe that the money was laundered through the London's criminal underworld. Others think that the money was buried or it's still hidden in the English countryside. And it doesn't help that several gangs members, like their identity is still unknown. Yeah.

No, I'm sure it's a mix of all of the above. Like, the money just not being found, it being gone. So... No. And that was part of the issue. They were like, we can convict this people, and we can sure say here's the evidence, but at the same time, where's the rest of the money? Who has it? What happened to it? That they hide it? That someone betrayed

them? Was it taken by someone else? Some people say that a more powerful criminal organization took the money. Once again, we don't know. It just like builds the mystery, it engages the listeners, and like it just gets you to think, where is this money? I feel like you have some theories. There's a few, like I said, that are more powerful,

like underworld crime syndicate takeover. Underworld criminal boss, crime boss. There's so many words when it comes to like just like the underworld. They're like mafia underworld, like a criminal syndicate. Like there's so many words. Did one of them get involved? Did one of them take the cash? There's no like evidence that it get laundered and like funneled into the dark bank, into like hidden bank accounts.

Yeah. Maybe. Was the gang betrayed by someone or was it buried? Does the money still exist? Has it been long enough that like it's decomposed or something? Probably. But what we do know it's that if I'm in the UK right now and if I had an old suitcase full of 1960s like banknotes, what do I do with it? It's old money. Do I call the cops? Do I like keep

it for myself? What do I do? What do you do? I mean, what can you do with it at that point? Like you can't spend it. Like maybe you could try to like sell it online. But if you try to sell it online, then it's gonna gain attention and then the police are gonna come after you for having it. So you just give it to the police, I guess. I'd probably keep a couple bills for myself.

You know, like as a memento, not necessarily to spend them. Nobody has to know I just keep them, you know tucked away I give the rest to the police. Yeah, they're like hey, I found this Hey, if I was to find the money from 1960 that disappeared, can I keep up a couple bucks? No, no, okay. It was just it was just hypothetical. I didn't actually yeah, I was just a hypothetical question What's my name? Oh, sorry? I can't hear you. I'm getting disconnected train Yeah So yeah theories one of the theories that the money was laundered through an through organized crime This one makes a lot of sense. The gang that pulled off the robbery

was not a bunch of amateurs. Some of them had ties to the London underworld and many believed that the heist, the money was quietly absorbed into the criminal economy. Which, what is the criminal economy? They got a whole city down there? Or like, what's going on?

I mean, it's filled with infamous gangster ruling London at the time. So, they might have some involvement just helping launder the money. It's true that, you know, then the cash never needed to be buried, if that's what happened. But there's also another theory that says it was, of course, an inside job, and it was a police cover-up. No way. Some people believe that the robbery was actually assisted by powerful figures.

Even some law enforcement. Wow. So, there's some strange details in the whole case that makes people question. Oh yeah, yeah. Because they're like, oh, like, where's the money? It was an inside job. There's some strange details that make people question. If the official story is really the full story, here's one.

The robbers knew exactly when the train would be carrying its largest amount of money. Yep, they did. That information, like I mentioned, was in public. It had to come from inside sources. An inside man, yeah. But then, they never found their inside man. Well, yeah. So, maybe this was the sort of like evidence in the case that disappeared mysteriously,

whoever that person was. Also, certain files were sealed for decades, which just fueled speculation that the British government might have something to do with that. But also, why would the... Is there a point for the government to steal from itself? Yeah, what the fuck? Yeah, that doesn't make sense. I mean, like privately, yeah, if somebody just like hate was a cop or something or inside and they hated everything they could join in, but yeah. Now there's also a theory that the UK's intelligence service may have been involved. Um, some think that the gang was used as a pawn in a larger scheme.

So that Bruce Reynolds was in the actual mastermind. There was someone above him. Um, no way. Yeah. So something getting more like, oh yeah, like it's so like deep underground. Yeah. Uh, so something, like I's so like deep underground. Yeah. So something like I said, the gang was used as a pawn for a larger scheme, maybe to expose corruption within the police force.

Others believe powerful criminals have leverage over law enforcement. So that's what they used, which is why some members of the gang were able to escape and avoid arrest for so long. And I think there's definitely more to the story than what we're always told. Whether it was corrupt police, intelligent agencies, or just really lucky criminals, something doesn't add up. Let's not forget that this crime wasn't recent. It took place 60 years ago.

Yes, a long time ago Theory number three four maybe next theory Yeah, the heist was cursed So now we're getting into what we normally cover What do you mean cursed? Get into that right now. Okay, got it. Okay, okay.

Let's do this. Here's the weird part. Many of the key players in the heists ended up having horrible fates. Okay. Jack Mills, the train driver, he was left with permanent injuries from the attack and he died at just 64 years old. Oh my god. So he died and his vengeful spirit came back to haunt the crew that killed him. Yo! That's crazy!

We just solved the case. This is my paranormal story. Wait, is your case about Jack Mills? Yeah, it's a guy from old Great Britain. Yeah, 100%. That's so funny. Anyway, I started a junk attitude. No, no, you're good. You're good.

I love that. I love that. Buster Edwards, one of the robbers, he was found hanged in a garage in 1994 Some think it was suicide Other suspect foul play Are there any Like circumstances or any descriptions of like the scene that are out there? Not that I can, I didn't actually look into the scene. I just figure out how each person was caught,

where and how they died. But several other robbers spent just decades in and out of prison struggling financially despite like stealing millions. So even if they stole this much money and they hid some away, once they got out of prison, they never really touched it. That's crazy.

I mean, and if anyone needs like... And you can't do anything with it. No. If anyone needed luck on their side, it was this group. So that's why it makes people wonder whether it was like bad luck or if the money itself was cursed. Which when people think that the money is cursed and I'm just like, and no, I think it's like, and... No. I think it's just people having bad luck. Like, yeah.

I, uh... I mean, in this case, it could be. You know, Mr. Mike was his name that died? Um... Not Mike. Jack Mills? Jack Mills. There you go. It started with an M. Jack Mills, Edward. So many people died from this not during the robbery but like as time went by

Other people could say it was I wouldn't say natural causes because they were not natural causes But like time gets to them like something else comes up But when in doubt just sage your money if you're gonna have like a heist. Sage it just to be safe. Cleanse it. I don't know how you would. You can never be too safe. If you're into the whole the money's cursed.

Yes. Let's see. I have another document here with more information. Okay. Millions of dollars. Don't use black sage though, because that's like cultural appropriation and it's not cool actually. I would just say don't use sage in general to be honest.

Yeah, there's other alternatives that you can use to cleanse that work just as well. So you know, do your research. Please be careful. Anyway, so like I said, I was talking about some of the people that got caught. Closing thoughts, no thank you. We're not there yet. Not there yet, not at all. We're not there yet. So, they, go ahead. Yeah, go ahead.

Okay, so I was gonna say with the timeline, they plan this out for months, and then they... They mess with the brake lights. So, like the lights so that the train is sort of forced to stop. Yes. The first conductor he gets out to check the lights that are malfunctioning. He gets knocked out and dragged away. Yes. Then the crew like raids the train. Yes. Essentially, they get on. They knock out mills. Mm hmm. Pop drops the ball and he can't drive this train. So they have to wake mills back up.

Yep. And then drive it. But like, where did they drive it to? Do you know, like how far did they drive it? They just, it wasn't like a straight set of train tracks. They switched the tracks to follow another line. Ah, I see. So that's what ended up happening. So it would be like harder to like trace the train

Yeah, I mean eventually would still catch and that's why they had to get the money out of the train I mean I because I'm thinking like they had it stopped essentially they could have just Gotten the stuff out there Like taking all the money, but they decided to drive it further and then stop it again closer to the high out Yeah, I see got it. Yeah Yeah and then stop it again. Closer to the high out. Yeah. Ah, I see. Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Also, when like the lights first went red and the train stopped, there's like an emergency phone that they could, like that the person could have used.

Yeah. They thought of that and they cut the wire as well. Oh, that's smart. So when the person wanted to use the phone for an emergency, they're like, hey, why is this light on? It was a deadline. So they thought like, hey, why is this light on? It was a deadline. So they thought of literally everything,

except for finding out what kind of train it is so that Pop could actually drive it. Yeah. Two major details. It was Pop and whoever was supposed to burn down the farmhouse. Yeah. Okay, that's just stupid. Like what? Yeah. Also, that's just stupid like what yeah also like Not saying that I'm gonna rob a train But if I was to go back in time and like have a train heist before like it was

Before we have technology like nowadays Yeah, I would have two people wait like two people like Be responsible for burning down the farmhouse not just one. Mm-hmm And I guess they both screwed you. Oh, well operation. Yeah 15 plus man Yeah, I mean not gonna lie like not not trying to like hype myself up or anything But I feel like I could have done a better job Oh, no, like I I feel like I could have done a better job. Oh no, like, I think any of us could have. Especially as we start hearing, like, that the things that they messed up were major things or technical things. It was just like, find someone that knows how to operate the train, and find someone that knows how gasoline works.

That's it. Not that difficult. I can't do the first one, but I can do the second one. I could probably figure out how to do both. It can't be that hard to drive a train. I don't know. I wouldn't want to risk it when someone has a pipe to my head. Anyway, that's about it. My notes are all over the place.

There's some great documentaries out there that if people want more details, they should definitely check out. I watched like four of them because they all have so much different information in them. Not the first train heist, but it was one of the most notable train heists. Also when we think train heists, we think Wild West. This was not in the Wild West. There was no guns, there was no shootouts, there was no horses that I know of, there was no horses. This was like a modern, you know, at the time, London modern train heist. Yeah, that's the train heist from the 1960s. The 1960... The Great Britain Train Heist of 1963.

Yes. The Great Great Britain. The Great Train Robbery of 1963. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, like a lot of true crime things that happen that we cover or that are notable, it inspired like pop culture and things like that. that happen that we cover or that are notable. It inspired, like...

pop culture and things like that. Movies have been made inspired by this, books and things like that. Really? I've never heard of it before. No, I mean, I'm sure that if you see any Wild West movie or even modern movies that have a train heist in them, they could have been inspired by this. Okay. But it led to a lot of inspiration when it came to like

music, movies, books, things like that. Especially because it was like so detailed until they got caught. You seen the movie Bullet Train? Yes. You have? Okay, cool. I have. I really like bullet train. I honestly I think it's really good. So. That's the thing when it comes to movies. I hate to say it. But I love all the movies. You love all of them? Just like every movie? Like even if it's a bad

movie, I love it. Oh, I love movies that are so bad that they're good. Like they're just pure entertainment. Great. So in that case, we have to have a movie night because I have the perfect movie for it. It's so stupid that it's fun. It's called the Night Watchers. I think I've heard of it. I might have talked about it briefly.

Long story short, it's a museum. It's like supposed to be like a horror movie, but it's comedy, but it's also like horror movie. Like it just doesn't add up. They open like a coffin that they're not supposed to open. And rather than having mummies it has vampires, but here's the catch They're vampire clowns Yeah, this sounds so familiar like I don't know where I heard of it but Somewhere yeah. Yeah, so that's why I said like when you said bullet train. I'm like I just love all movies whether they're good or bad Yeah, so that's why I said like when you said bullet train. I'm like I just love all movies whether they're good or bad And when someone asked me what did you think I was like it was a good movie and they're like was it and I'm like yes

There's this stupid like ghost movie I watched a couple of years ago And an ex my ex at the time or my girlfriend at the time showed me it. It's called Hantu Kaklima it's It's a Malaysian like horror comedy and it's about like this village and like this lady is dead but like Nobody knows and so she goes around trying to like haunt people but nobody knows she's actually dead or some shit So they just think she's weird? Yeah, and they're like, what the fuck are you doing? Interesting. Yeah, no, I love bad movies.

So good. And the thing is, I would rewatch, I love watching bad, rewatching bad movies when I'm having someone watch them for the first time. bad movies when I'm having someone watch them for the first time. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't care how bad Sausage Party is, I will watch it with someone that has never watched it before. Sausage Party is insane. It is.

I haven't seen the movie in years. I don't plan on rewatching it unless it's with people that haven't watched it before. I'm like, hey, I got this'm like hey I got this Airbnb movie night Sausage party We're gonna watch sausage party we're gonna watch Ted Ted too. I have never watched Ted The Ted movies are so dumb. I don't know. I'm sure and I think that's why I just didn't watch them when I was younger But now I'm like, that's why you have to watch them

But yeah, I'm down with movie nights. This is like a really bad horror movie marathon. Really bad. Sorry, is Twilight considered bad horror? Yes. No, not horror, but like Twilight is so bad that it's amazingly good. Like Twilight is the pinnacle of like it's so bad it's good and it's just pure entertainment. I love the Twilight films.

Do you name my daughter after the Lachnus monster? I named my dog after a vampire. After a vampire. Jack? That's different. That's not a, that's your child, but not a child. No. Super good. That's not a that's your child, but not a child No

Super good But yeah, anyway, um, what do you have for us Kai? Oh Jumping right into it Okay, um, I have got a Malaysian I was about to be like stop I was about to be like stop I was like I need we need a breather before we get into your story if that's the case Well mine I think my story is surprisingly Gonna get darker than yours, which is not common because like true crime. Okay

Thank you for bringing that up. I purposely wanted to pick a true crime that wasn't super dark Okay Train heist or soul crime no, and I think I mean someone dark die Right yeah, but like years after I everyone dies Kai Not yet, oh shit. I said that out loud. Not me. Not yet. Oh shit, I said that out loud? Oh wait. Yeah, we'll beep that. I'm not immortal. I would really hate being immortal.

I would not want to live forever. The thing is... I would be okay with that. If... No, I wouldn't. I lied. No. It always seemed fun no I wouldn't, I lied. No, no. No, it always seemed fun when I was younger, but now that I'm older I'm like, nah, I'm cool.

If you're still listening right now, what do you think of immortality? Would you wanna be immortal? Would you wanna live forever? I don't, I wouldn't want to, that would get so lonely. Too many taxes. And terrible, and well, I mean, I'd probably just like, just like the Kolen family from Twilight, I'd just move around and change identities. Yeah. I mean, it's a great way to like build quote-unquote generational health wealth, because it would just be yours.

And like, you're like, cool, I can touch it whenever I needed. This is true. Oh, I was gonna say we can talk about this after, because we just brought up Twilight. Trip to the Twilight Museum in Forks. Washington, woo! I'm not saying why not, I don't say, I mean, I don't see why not. Anyway, your story, Kai, does it have vampires?

In a weird way, it kind of maybe does have vampires, but I'll leave that for a little bit. Okay, okay. Yes, go ahead. How do I want to start this? How do I want to start this? Are you taking us back in time? And are we... No, I'm taking us forward in time. Would it be crazy if we had like covered stories like that? That'd be cool. I don't know how that would work. We'd have to be psychic. No, we could like cover like the future readings that like psychics do at the start of the year Like their predictions that would be kind of cool. That actually kind of fun any psychics out there. Let us know

What are your predictions for 2025? Yeah, what are your predictions? Anyway, and they're like I've already seen myself on your show this or what are we talking about and I'm like sure Fuck I guess you're right spam Anyway, go ahead. So, what would you do if like you were really sick? You were really sick and you fell asleep and then you woke up on a boat

and you were being brought to an island where many other people are being brought to and you knew that that was probably the end for you. Sorry. I'm trying to process your question. By the way, this is a horrible icebreaker. Don't ever use this as an icebreaker. I don't know if I was really sick and then woke up in a boat. Am I no longer sick or am I still sick? Oh, you're still sick. You're even worse. Okay, then I can't know if I was really sick and then woke up in a boat. Am I no longer sick or am I still sick?

Oh, you're still sick. You're even worse. Okay, then I can't do shit. I guess I just try to like locate the nearest phone or authority figure and let them know I've been kidnapped, but that's about it. Oh, I forgot to mention you're also surrounded by a bunch of other people that are sick. Are we talking about leprosy? They like take leopards and put them in an island to keep them away from society I society. I thought you were talking about like something to do with leprosy.

Okay, okay, it's not leprosy, but it is a similar idea. Okay. So... Today... By the way, that was not how I intended to start this case. I, like, purposely made it, like, dark because... we hadn't gotten dark yet. No, that's fine, but at the same time, I'm confused. I mean, it's great. I don't know what we're talking about. Cool. So... The most haunted place in Italy

is what we're talking about. Sorry, as soon as you said the most haunted place, I was gonna be like, wait, is this that one island in Italy that I know nothing about? Yes, it is. Got it. Poveglia, island in Italy, as my non-Italian speaking self is going to pronounce it. Wasn't it? I'll let you go, but I'm pretty, I don't know.

Go ahead. I still think leprosy, but I'm definitely wrong. You're not too far off. It's known as the most haunted island in Italy, though go to any place ever and all of the haunted locations are called the most haunted locations. That is true. I mean, to be fair, I don't think they advertise themselves as the most haunted location. I think it's always, we're the most haunted house or the most haunted ship or the most haunted like land in This area, but I don't think I don't know does anyone ever claim to be like the most haunted worldwide

Or is there always like a category? There's always categories and I don't think anybody ever claims themself To be like the most haunted place. It's always like out-tidal sources or whatever. Fair. Yeah. Anyway, Paveglia Island. The island of no return. The island of the ghosts. Some other names.

It's a small little island. It's actually three tiny little islands. Okay. Located in the Venice Lagoon area. So it's between Venice and Ledo, the two different cities in Italy. So small little islands. I was going to send you some pictures, but I imagine you've already seen it, right? No, no, I actually just heard of it, but I don't know what it looks like

It's weird like sometimes I'll see like some like videos and they'll cover like Part of a story, but not the full story and then I don't dig more into it Cool well, yeah, I just texted you a couple pictures I've got some more as we go. But small little islands. Really nothing to write home about. I believe it's only about seven or eight acres total of island. Okay, see.

I know it's haunted. I would say so though. It looks pretty cool, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, go ahead and cover it because I already have some questions on what some of the pictures say. That's why I sent it to you. Oh, okay. So This island is old.

Currently it is abandoned. It's uninhabited. It has been for many, many years. You mentioned visiting it, but it is illegal to visit unless you apply for special permits. However... It's only illegal. It's only illegal if you get caught. Exactly. Anyway, go ahead. Which is what most people believe as well. There are countless amount of like tour boats and stuff that will literally take you out to the island. What?

And like not necessarily so you can get on the island, but like they'll turn a blind eye if you dive into the water and you know and get onto the island. My concern is how do I get back? So there's ones you can hire, like they drop you off and they come back the next morning to pick you up. Oh, not like in an hour or two the next morning. Next morning, if you wanna stay there. Okay, okay. Which people have done and I'll get into that in a bit.

So quick history lesson. I, in a way, kind of consider us a history podcast as well, which is something I realized pretty recently. Yeah. When you said that, I was like, you know what? We kind of are. We kind of are. Yeah.

We don't really cover like current events. It's all history. We cover past events and future events pretty soon. Coming soon. Only we know when it's coming. You guys don't know. Yeah, exactly. Keeping a year out. The first records of Paveglia Island sort of showing up and being in habit, a date back all the way to the 400s. 421, to be exact, is the year. So we're talking. Sorry, I'm talking year one.

Year 400, like that 400. Yes. Wow. Yeah, I can't process that. No, seriously, like people existed back then? That's crazy. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Like, what did you do back in the year 400? Can you believe like someone in the future is going to be covering a story of like, yeah,

like in 2025? And they're like, yeah, like in 2025. And they're like, yeah, can you think that far back? And it's like, no, I can't imagine people lived that time. My little cousin, she just turned 14. She was born in 2011. What? What? How is that possible? My niece was born in 2021.

No. That's illegal. So the thing is, okay, so real deviation and we'll get back to it. Go for it. We got back from a trip and we were gone for four days. I don't live with small children, but I came back home and the house was childproof. What? The house was childproof. I was like, oh, like I forgot that cupboards are now childproof because apparently my niece wasn't a threat,

a menace when she was walking around, but my nephew apparently is. So now everything got baby-proofed and I'm like, yeah. But yeah, people are still being born. Next time you see a small child, be like, that should be illegal. Did you say punch it or punt it? I'm gonna punt it like a football. Okay, good. I love children.

So, Paveglia Island. 421 is the year. Those are some of the earliest historical records. People lived there. Years after years, it was a very populated area of Venice. To my understanding so it was populated for many, many years. But it sort of was abandoned, re-inhabited as time went on. So let me pull up the exact year, if I can find that. No, I mean, it seems like you'll be able to. 1379, because the war between Venice and Genoa was happening, I believe, no, yeah, around that time.

So- I didn't know they had a war. Yeah, it was a little war. It was mainly a spree of attacks, I believe. So Genoa was attacking Venice. And so the inhabitants of Poveglia, they fled to Venice itself, just for protection during that war. Oh, so were they like in the crossfire?

Essentially, yeah. Okay. And they were this small island, they really couldn't do much to protect themselves, so they went back to Venice, they completely abandoned the island. And so, it was pretty much abandoned in a way. 1379. A long, long time goes by, the island remains uninhabited around the 1600s or so. The city of Venice, they decide that they need to build more protection around. So what they did is they actually built some octagonal like forts on different islands

around the Venice Lagoon to help protect, control the forts, their entrances. And one of those forts was built on Paveglia Island. And I sent you some pictures. You can actually see the fort. It's literally a big octagon, the fort, that's right in front of them. So, essentially, yeah, it essentially acted as a port protection for some years.

You know? What was it supposed to do? Just like stop things? Yeah, so they would, all incoming boats would have to stop. And essentially it was like a checkpoint. They could send people over there to like, you know, a few people at a time, I think it was a quarantine somebody or,

Got it. You know, whatever it may have been. So from about the 1600s until the late 1700s or so, which is when things really took off for this island. 1776 is when the public health office of Venice took control of the island of Paveglia and they really just furthered its use as a port, you know, as a checkpoint for the goods of everything that was coming in, as well as checking for illnesses and sicknesses. Because this was the 1700s where the bubonic plague was Everyone was sick So if you look under your seat, yeah, you get the plague you get the plague you get the plague

No, that's literally what it was Literally everybody had it back then. Yeah. Yeah. You know, they thought it was a virus. It's actually a bacteria, you know, but not to get into it. Okay, but not to get like biological with them, but they did know better. They did not know better. Um, things took a turn for the worse in a way.

Starting in about 1793. 1793 was one of those years where the plague, you know, the Black Death was at its peak. It started with a couple of ships coming in that had, you know, the plague. So they were sent to quarantine on the island of Poveglia. Little fun fact that I learned is that the word quarantine actually comes from the Italian practices because a quarantine in Italy was 40 days long and the word for 40 is quaranta. was 40 days long. And the word for 40 is quaranta. Yes.

And the reason I know this is because my mom, I don't think my mom was like quarantine, but like when you used to give birth, the woman was supposed to be quarantined for 40 days because her immune system was also much weaker. But yeah, I think I learned that from somewhere as well. But yeah. It's I don't know. I love linguistics. Which we were not quarantined during the pandemic. It was 14 days, not 40 days. Anyway.

Anyway, yeah, our pandemic thankfully was not nearly as bad. was not nearly as bad. Depends who you ask. And where in the world they were. We don't talk about that. We don't talk about Bruno here. So it was 1793. There's a couple of ships that are sent to quarantine for having the plague. There were a couple of other quarantine islands that were used by Venice. Lazzaretto Nuovo,

Lazzaretto Vecchio. But they were both full because of all the patients. So Paveglia was turned into a quarantine site once again. It got bad as you can probably, you know, guess. The bubonic plague, the Black Death was one of the most devastating things in history, right? It killed so many people. It's a reason it's called, It was given that name, yeah. Yeah. And this is where they started sending people from the main city of Venice, you know, when they started showing signs as well. So people would get sick.

They would wake up on ships. Surrounded by other people. So people were literally waking, like, being taken at night and then waking up on ships. Surrounded by other people. So people were literally waking, like being taken at night and then waking up on ships? I mean not necessarily taken at night, but it was like they were so sick that they didn't even realize what was happening. Wow. And they would be on their way to the island of Paveglia and they knew that it was over for them. So that's when they knew it was over.

Because they were looking out. Once you went there, you were done. Not many people whatsoever, you know, left, recovered from the bubonic plague. It just wasn't something that was widely possible. Wow. They tried to, you know, dispose of these bodies, but eventually there were so many that, apparently they were just scattered around the island. People would say it almost looked like, like hell. It literally looked like hell corpses were they not like buried like they were to an extent so they were thrown into

Death pits I believe is what they were called a plague pits Sorry, okay plague bits big pits in the ground literally just bodies corpses thrown into them big pits in the ground literally just bodies corpses thrown into them when that stopped working because they were getting too full that's when they started cremating right got it and to this day you can still see the big ovens that they use that are on the but very morbid. Yeah. Yeah. There was this one YouTube video I watched of someone doing like an investigation. And they were like, oh, look at this big like grill.

What is this thing? It's so cool. And they like climbed through it. And everybody in the comments was like, dude, that's where they cremated the bodies. Like you don't know what you just crawled through. Ah. See, it's times like that where I'm like, you either were being ignorant and you knew what it was, or you genuinely didn't know.

And I don't know which one is worse. Yeah. Like, how are you gonna go there and not know? Yeah. And still crawl through it. So, there are some legends, reports, nothing's real. They're sort of unfounded, nothing proven. It's said that 50% of the soil on the islands are made of ash,

simply because of how many people were cremated. Over 100,000 people are said to have lost their lives on this island. The island. 160,000 plus are some of the numbers that have been thrown out there. And that is an insane amount of people for how tiny this island was. You've seen how small it is in the pictures. Yeah. I mean, it's a nice size island, but it's not meant to be like, for a lot of people to live in. No. No. And so we'll post some of these pictures you guys listening can take a look as well.

You mentioned vampires. No! Stop! Why? Okay. You've had my attention this whole time, but now I feel like I need to get closer because now you really have my attention. So these mass graves were discovered, right? The plague pits. They opened them up and something that was pretty common with all of the skeletal remains, the skulls that were found, were large rocks that were clamped between the jaws of some of these skeletons. The reasoning behind this was because the thinking is they'd have to reuse these pits,

right? A lot of times they would cover them up to bury the people, but if they needed to reuse it, they'd have to reopen the pits. Okay. And a lot of times when they do that, yeah. What was that for? So when they had to rebury even more bodies, you know, into the pits, right? But when they opened them up, a lot of times they would see blood dripping from the mouths

of the corpses. Oh. So what we know now is that their organs were rupturing and the blood was rushing out of their mouth. But they didn't know that back then. So the logical conclusion was that they were vampires that were feasting on each other in the grave. And the only way to prevent that was to shove rocks

in between their jaws to make them starve to death. It's a lot of that story of like, cut them open, fill their stomach with rocks, and throw them into the river. Yeah. Let them be. I'm just thinking as like... Yeah, superstition was weird. It still is. It is. But the things that people did and things that we still do.

It was used as a quarantine island for about 21 years, I think is the math. 1793 to 1814. Is that how long the Bbonic plague was for I think it lasted even longer than that but that's just how long this was used as a dedicated quarantine god okay it was abandoned once again right it was still owned by the government but there really wasn't a use for it anymore. Was it always owned by the government? Yes, it was always owned by the government. It still is owned by the government to this day.

But as far as we can go, from the start, it belonged to the government? Yes, to my understanding, yeah. It was left abandoned for once again hundreds of years or well a hundred years I guess. Because in 1922, great year, not a great year, sorry. I mean, it depends what you're going to share with us. It might not be a great. 1922. So the island was then converted into a psychiatric hospital and insane asylum. And why can't it? Places are never turned into nice things. Just just And it stayed. Why can it... Go ahead. Places are never turned into nice things. Just putting that out there.

Can we... Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. From what I read, I believe at first it was actually said to be like a nursing home, slash like elderly long-term care facility. No one's visiting those seniors, let's be honest. But there's- If I have to get on a boat to go see my grandpa,

I'm not going. And that's exactly why people didn't really believe that. So there's been, you know, people looked in like in modern times when they've done investigations, they've literally, you know, seen signage saying psychiatric hospital, things like that. And so we we do know it was a psychiatric facility. And it stayed that way for a while, 1922 to 1968 is when it did eventually close down. Okay, so it was brought in for quite a few years. It was. It's on this little island that not many people go to. But back during that time,

you know, mental health and mental illness once again wasn't researched. So it went from the deaths of bubonic plague to then the deaths of psychiatric care, quote unquote. Which we know in the early 1900s that wasn't great care. Yeah. Lobotomies, electroconvulsion therapy, so many unsafe, unproven medical procedures that oftentimes resulted in death. And the psychiatric hospital of Paveglia was no different from that. People really suffered there. There was even more death. And one of the story goes, the head doctor, the chief doctor there, he was kind of evil in a way as they all, as you know, as they often were back then. Every psychiatric hospital has to have at least one, right?

Mm-hmm. So it said that he was the one who conducted all these lobotomies and these experiments. And in doing so, he was just continually driven mad. Because of these experiments, the patients, it said also because of the ghosts, the spirits of the people who died in the past on this island He was driven mad. So he climbed up to the top of the bell tower and he

threw himself off Yeah So do we have another doctor? Yes. No, we do not because to all the actual knowledge that we know this doctor never existed Okay, okay. This evil doctor never existed. Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah. I see how it is. I'm looking at the picture, and I'm assuming that the insane asylum is that small little rectangle building there? The one that says... Yes.

Insane asylum? I didn't know that's how you spelled it. I guess so. I mean, it just looks like a finger's hat stroke, and yeah. I didn't know that's how you spelled it. I guess so. I mean, it just looks like a fingers hat stroke. In Sanis Island. You'll get to see it, listeners. We'll put it on our Instagram. Lots of death, lots of darkness that came from that island.

So 1968, it was abandoned and it has been abandoned ever since. It's now completely overgrown. The nature is taking back over. The buildings that are still left standing, I believe there's 11 buildings that are still standing Kavanaugh Church Hospital the asylum Bell Tower and a couple of other Buildings as well It's a weird question. Is the Bell still there? I don't believe it is

Okay, so people don't ring it. People don't ring it, but people still hear it. What? Is that also part of, like, the stories? It is, yeah. So... All of these buildings, they are in complete ruins. If you step inside, people aren't allowed, mainly because it is in such disrepair It's a complete hazard to be even yeah

I was gonna be like it's a safety hazard and the government's not gonna take responsibility for people getting injured Exactly. Yeah I'll sign a waiver to be honest though. If they gave me a waiver would sign right like Cool. Like yeah, I know what I'm getting into. I actually, there's a YouTube video that got posted like a month ago. Of somebody going to explore it. I think that's always cool though when it's like an abandoned place and like you get to see like a recent video. It's like, oh like people still go there.

Or like that's what it would look like if I was to go there now. No, it's pretty cool. I Think it would be kind of cool It Lots of death right lots of dark history surrounding this island and Because of that It's why it's known as the most haunted place in Italy. There was so much death said to have upwards of, you know, hundreds of thousands,

a hundred thousand plus, right, of all these people that did pass away. And things associated with that. So many of the locals completely avoid this place. You know, fishermen get on the water, they take like the widest berth that they can to not get anywhere near. People, you know, like I said, they hear the bell ringing, but people going on to the island, you know, they feel these unsettling presences, you know, they sometimes see shadows move or, you know, thinking they see figures in the dark. Yeah.

I'm not giving very detailed explanations of any actual ghost encounters. Because there are none. Oh. No. It's all hearsay and like... It's all hearsay. Yeah. Things that people talk about in posts but like, no like...

Exactly. Yeah. So... It's... You know, it's haunted. Yeah, things that people talk about in posts, but like no like exactly Yeah, so It's you know, it's it's haunted. It's known as the most haunted area, but Is there anything really to back that up other than all of the death that did occur? Mm-hmm, because that is true. Very certainly that is true. It was a very dark place for so many years That is true. It was a very dark place for so many years. Oh yeah. Since 400, well not 400, but like, since people lived there since 400.

Yeah. That is crazy. That is such a long time. I really want to visit. I just really want to visit. It looks like I don't speak Italian I could learn some enough to like be like, can we get a permit? for a favor Even though I think that's Spanish That's close enough and they're like no and I'm like That's it and then just go rent a boat. It's like, hey, I tried the legal way, Kai didn't work. Now we just gotta go find a boat.

We just gotta go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's reports people, you know, feeling that they're being followed or watched as they go. Deep emotions of sorrow, despair, dread. Did you say red? Dread. Oh, okay. Red is a new emotion, folks. You only feel it at this island. Exactly.

But other than that, it really doesn't have all too much more. And now after I'm saying this, I realize this really did just seem like a dark history lesson. Yeah, but it's like a haunted location, quote unquote, haunted location. This originally wasn't even going to be my case for this episode. Really? I kind of found it last minute. I had something else planned. It's a good case. I had something else planned, researched, but I saw this and I was like, I haven't covered a haunted island before. The thing is, when you said this haunted island in Italy, I was like, I've heard, I heard things here and there.

But like, I didn't know the full story, which is really, really like a lot of history. No, there is. No, there is. And looking into it, honestly, most paranormal, haunted locations have a lot of history, and that's what drives the ghost stories, right? Yeah. That's what drives all of it. There's always something that like grounds it in reality. And I think that's important to really establishing it as a haunted location. Because like, if I just tell you it's a haunted location,

and then I'm like, oh, here are some ghost stories. Well, you're like, why? Like, why is it even haunted in the first place? What happened here? You know? So, I think it's important that we recognize them. We want that context. We do, and I was here to give it to you, so.

Thank you. I'm sure the listeners appreciate it. If they don't, I'm sure they do, so I'm not gonna put a myth out there. I won't cut you. I'm sure the listeners appreciate it if they don't I'm sure they do so not even if they don't out there I won't cut you for some reason I Thought you had one of those dog trainer things like those clickers If you didn't like it click click try again I always have this knife on my desk. I've I don't know like I've had this knife for literal years

It's almost dull knife ever But which is great and cool Because if anyone ever breaks in and they see a dull knife, they're like That guy is dangerous He has a dull knife Yes Just say I mean they're yeah knives are dangerous in general, but dull knives are even more dangerous So I've got some really cool pictures of

This place and I'll definitely send you them and we'll post a lot. I will share some of the pictures of the train robbery with you as well because there's some really cool ones. Some of the inside of the train, like what it looked like, this, this and that, the money, things like that. At some point, one of the documentaries I was watching, not the farmhouse, but another location that they found, they hid the money within the walls. Because they were like, oh, like that board looks crooked

or something like that. And then they took it down and they saw that, like, it was lined with like, bit money. And I'll share some of those pictures with you as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, I think with that, good story here, we're gonna wrap up this episode.

Yeah. I hope you guys enjoyed it. Thank you for being back. Yeah. It was nice. It was nice being back recording an episode. It was so nice to be back, to be honest. being back recording an episode. It was so nice to be back, to be honest.

And I think PodFest really gave us a little bit of extra oomph to, you know, get something out. Big things coming this year, folks. I think we've already said that. A lot. But we're saying it again. Thank you. Or we might have just said it off camera,

but like now we're saying it on camera. Because this is the first video, the first episode since PontFest. Yeah, wow. Big things coming your way, folks. Hope you're excited because we're excited. If you're not excited, Kai has a dog trainer clicker. Get excited! Get excited now!

And we'll see you next time! Alright. Take care everybody. Bye! Smurf! Ah! Ah! Thanks for listening to Chambers of the Occult. For photos, sources, and anything else mentioned during the episode, check out our website

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