Chambers of the Occult - EP# 28 No Safe Place and Saloon Hauntings: The D.C. Sniper Attacks and the Oxford Saloon

Episode Date: February 6, 2025

On this episode we’re diving into two chilling tales—one of calculated terror, the other of lingering spirits.Kai starts us off with the harrowing true crime story of the D.C. Sniper Attacks, a killing spree that paralyzed Washington, D.C., Maryland, and Virginia in the fall of 2002. Over the course of a month, two men transformed everyday activities—like pumping gas or walking through a parking lot—into moments of sheer terror. With victims chosen at random and fear gripping an entire region, the sniper attacks became one of the most unnerving crime sprees in modern history. How did authorities track them down, and what twisted motives fueled their rampage?Then, just when you think it’s safe to let your guard down, J takes us inside the haunted halls of the Oxford Saloon in Snohomish, Washington. Once a rough-and-tumble bar and brothel, this historic saloon holds a dark past—and it seems that some of its patrons never left. From the ghost of a murdered policeman lingering on the staircase to the spectral woman in the purple dress seen in the shadows, the Oxford Saloon is a hotspot of eerie encounters. And if the upstairs isn’t unsettling enough, wait until you hear about the unexplainable darkness lurking in the basement.Killers in the shadows and spirits that refuse to move on—this episode has it all. So lock your doors, dim the lights, and prepare for a journey into the unknown.Send us a text

Imagine you're at a gas station, filling up your car just like any other day, when suddenly you hear a loud crack. Almost like a firework. You turn, and you see someone collapse to the ground. No warning, no suspect, just chaos. What would you do? Chambers of the Occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. I'm going to go ahead and close the video. Imagine you're at a gas station, filling up your car just like any other day, when suddenly you hear a loud crack, almost like a firework. You turn and you see someone collapse to the ground.

No warning, no suspect, just chaos. What would you do? Would you run for cover, call 911, try to help the victim knowing the shooter could still be watching In a split second, how would you react? Okay When you said crack I did not expect a gunshot So if I heard a noise and it sounded like a crack and says someone fall I would probably run over to help

a noise and it sounded like a crack and someone fall I would probably run over to help if I heard a crack that sounded like a gunshot looking good. I'd probably go ahead and hide and then you know, maybe call 9-1-1 What are we I guess I should have clarified it yeah It's not like a not actual firework, but you know yeah No for some reason when you said crack I generally like thought that I was gonna be like those like crackers like on the floor type of thing and Then you said someone passed out and I'm like Yeah, and yeah, I yeah if it sounds like a gunshot get some cover call 9-1-1 If Sounds like a gunshot. Get some cover, call 911. If it's just, I don't process that it's a crack,

like a gunshot, I'd probably go check out the person and be like, oh, what do I do? But yeah, one of those two. What would you do? I'd probably try to duck for cover as soon as possible, you know, if my camera can focus. I was gonna bring that up, but I was gonna let you finish answering. Yeah, I'm really out of focus right now. I don't know why. Hello.

Alright, well, we're back. Sorry about that. I'm Jay. I'm Kai, who is not blurry anymore, thankfully. No, yes. And I should take my mouse away from the leave button. That's definitely a good idea, you know? And welcome back, episode 27. Something. Yeah. Um, and welcome back!

Episode 27. Something. Seven. Right? I think so. I think? Yeah. 28 maybe.

We're gonna go with... Might be... Yeah, let's just go with, um... 28! Episode 28! Yes, thank you! Yeah, we're good at this. Hey, numbers are hard.

It's why people go to school. For numbers. Yeah, people do that. It's why people go to school, for numbers. Yeah, people do that. That's crazy. I'm not a math person. They go to learn math to then teach math. Well, they learn math. Like, they learn numbers, but they learn letters. For numbers, yeah. Wait, what do you mean they learn letters? Like, in math? Yeah, because there's so many letters and stuff. They use

Imaginary numbers and that's a whole different circle It's like I can't even work with the real numbers. You expect me to know the imaginary ones For the real letters, whatever. It's like it's why I don't use cash. It's so hard All right, so yeah. Any life updates? Nothing really besides being very busy. Other than that, I'm just, I'm chugging along, you know? Cool. Getting things going. What about you? I am freaked out because I see something unplugged and I'm like is this mine no no what is this wait so I don't know I don't really know what my hair is doing with this

like little swoop on my forehead but I kind of like it so I'm just gonna leave it that okay this is not meant to be plugged anywhere good I don't know why So I'm just gonna leave that. Let it sleep. Okay, cool. This is not meant to be plugged anywhere. Good. I don't know why it's out here. Okay, good. Just freaked me out because it was like, I was like, that looks very similar to like my microphone wire.

And I was like, and the fact that it's not plugged in, it's kind of concerning. That is kind of concerning. So I'm glad. We're all good. Yeah. Yeah, we're good. Hi. Yeah. That is kind of concerning. So I'm glad We're all good Yeah, yeah, we're good. Hi. Yeah, uh, no life updates on my side really. Okay life is going just going It's February that's crazy Jett I was gonna say October January was quite long

January was long, but it also felt like it went by so fast. Yeah, yeah. Looking back I was like, ooh. Yeah. I don't know. New month, new content for you guys. I can't believe it's February already. Like how is it already the second month of 2025? How is 2024 over?

I think that's the bigger question. How do we have a certain someone back in our office? Like what? Like not to get political, but you know. Oh, I was going to be like, I was thinking work and I was like, I don't think anyone left our offices. I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah.

Michael. Fair. I think that's what we have this podcast for. To just de-stress. Well. Do we de-stress? Sometimes. Sometimes I just get emotional reading things.

Yeah. But I think. Researching some of these cases is like really tough. I, yeah, yeah. I do agree with that. Especially when you come across things that you were not expecting to come across. No seriously yeah I don't know if you guys remember but our second episode like the the kitten killer

that one has really stuck with me just because that was like I dove into that case and I was like oh my god I literally hated what I found so no and for me it was The missing painter kid from Malaga, yeah Yeah, I don't know if it's because like as a brother like it got to me or something, but I was just like that was That's hard. No, I get that I mean, I think it also has to do with the fact that like it's I mean not to say that we're not covering real People but when you see like interviews like it's like you put a face to them, like it feels a lot real. A lot more real.

Yeah, um... I, yeah, it just, it's tough. It's tough sometimes, so we don't always de-stress, but you know what it's not the end of the world It's fun sharing it with you guys It's fun sharing it with Kai. I'm like hey Kai You're ready for some trauma Yes, are you ready for some trauma? I was gonna say you get to start off this. Yeah I hope you guys are I hope that question intrigued you and listeners. I hope it intrigued you out there.

Yeah, what would you do in that situation actually? Yeah, let us know. No, no like you Kai. Oh me. I mean the listeners too, but you as well. Yeah, no, I mean first of all I'd be like what the fuck and then I'd look around to see where the shooting came from I'd try to like drag the fuck and then I'd look around to see where the shooting came from I'd try to like drag the person away like to the closest cover that there is but you know it's it's hard to tell what you would do in that situation I mean you're also like at a gas station there's not really a lot of coverage there's not you can't hide behind a gas tank no I was gonna be like

it's dangerous. No, no, no, no. Yeah. I was like that's one of like the last places you want to be when like a gun goes off. All right. Yes. Why, why did you ask us this? Well, I assume it has nothing to do with your case. Nothing. Okay. Let me set the scene. So, it started as a single gunshot. It was an ordinary evening in Maryland, shattered by an unseen assailant. Then before anyone could react or make sense of the horror of those cracks that they were hearing, there was another shot. Then another. And within hours, the

streets of Washington, DC and its suburbs and surrounding areas became a hunting ground. That... sounds like the Purge. A bit. I mean, well, you said a hunting ground, I was like, that sounds very... very movie-like, but also very Purge-like. Well, there was no pattern, no apparent motive, just sudden, precise killings. A man mowing grass, a woman loading groceries, a kid walking into school.

Each victim taken in an instant with a single bullet. Panic gripped the area, people ran, they were zigzagging through parking lots, afraid to stand still for even a moment. Because this killer left no traces, no demands, no tracks, only fear. And it wasn't random. And it wasn't, or it was seemingly random. I mean, at the time it seemed random, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah police scoured the streets They were looking for anything they could have desperate for leads But the sniper was always watching always one step ahead Every day brought another victim

Another shot from nowhere from the shadows. And this terror stretched for weeks. And invisible force that turned gas stations, sidewalks, and playgrounds into places of dread. Almost a battlefield. What year was this? This was 2002. Oh. Okay.

So the nation held its breath, you know, waiting for just the next shot to ring out. People were scared. But then in the dead of night, at the end of October, at a quiet rest stop in Maryland, authorities found them. The ghosts that had haunted an entire region. There's two men, a car, and a rifle. The nightmare was over, but all of the scars remained. Yeah, and of course questions, of course. Yeah. Questions I'm sure you have. Do you have any before you get into it? They found them and I was like, ooh some more than one Mm-hmm. My other question was that that you said I

Mean it sounded like it happened ever like every day for a couple weeks Pretty much. Oh, wow. Yeah Over the span of three weeks Specifically, I'll get a bit more into the attacks in just a second. Yeah. Yeah. So-

And he said it was 2001? 2002. 2002. 2002. Okay, I have no, I have never heard of this. Alright. Then again, yeah, it was, yeah, 2002. Yeah.

I hadn't heard about it either until, it either until I started researching it, right? So it was about a three-week span, and about ten people were killed with three injured in this three-week span. So... This is known... yeah, go ahead. Ten killed and three injured? Yes. Okay. So there was 13 victims in total?

Yes. Okay. For the primary attacks. So, I'll get into that a bit later. Okay. For the primary attacks. So I'll get into that a bit later. Yeah, you're gonna have to. So these are the DC sniper attacks or the beltway snipers as they're known. And like I mentioned that little narrative, it really did start out as just a single random gunshot. Which for Marilyn wasn't all that uncommon. It wasn't all that alarming at the time. It was. Yeah. I was gonna be like, I'm sure that people got more concerned when it was like a daily

thing. Or more than, you you know more frequent than usual. So it was October 2nd 2002 when this all started. It was 520 in the evening, 520 p.m. in Wheaton Maryland. There was a shot that was reported. It was fired through a Michael's, you know, the craft store. It just fires through the window, shattered the glass. Oh, so like even if you were like in a building you weren't safe? No, yeah. Oh, wow. Luckily they were safe in this first incident because in this first shot, nobody was injured. And in fact, nobody even really expected it to be connected to anything else. It was a random gunshot that the police barely even investigated because really what was

the point? Yeah, there was like no witness, no victims. They're like... Yeah. No, it really wasn't connected at first. That was until just about an hour later at 630 p.m. Not far away in Aspen Hill, Maryland, another suburb, would lead to the first official victim of the DC sniper attacks. His name was James Martin. He was 55 years old. So like I mentioned, this was the first victim that was detailed at least here in these sniper attacks. He was a program analyst, James Martin, for the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.

So he was sort of a government person. They weren't sure if that really tied into anything, but once again, we'll get into that a bit more. Yeah. Um, but like I did mention, a lot of this was random, unexpected, it was pure chaos. James Martin, he was shot just in the parking lot of a shopper's food store. Um. Okay, do you know, I don't know if this will play into the future of your case or not, but... Did he, was it like, did he die instantly or...?

Um... I'm not entirely sure. Okay, that's fine. Let's see... Yeah, I'm just curious about the aspect because... No, that's fine, that's fine. I'm not entirely sure I was able to really find that. No, that's fine. That's fine. Yeah, so it was October 2nd that night, and that was the first victim. So it was about 6.30, and it started some panic, right?

This guy was just killed however There wasn't really cause for alarm yet until the next day October 3rd 2002 Okay, because on October 3rd the DC snipers would take five victims Oh on one day killed in one day alone Okay, the first was at 7 41 a.m. in Rockville, Maryland. The victim's name was James Buchanan. He was 39 years old. He was killed while just mowing grass at an auto dealership just in the city. Okay. So he was just like at work? Just at work. He was just mowing a lawn. He was a landscaper.

And this really sparked a bunch of that chaos. Because why? Why was this so random? Who was he targeting? This killer, who was he targeting if he was targeting anyone? Which meant we were all in danger. Everyone was in danger, so it caused so much fear. And there was even more fear when just half an hour later, at 8, 12 a.m., there was another victim who was shot and killed.

So less than an hour apart. Half an hour. Wow. Where was this at? Nearby in White Flint, Maryland. The victim's name was Premkumar Walakar, 54 years old, and while the car was just a taxi driver, you know, he was just working. He was at a gas station, gassing up his car. Very similar to the situation that, you know, I posed earlier.

The opening question. Yeah. Wow. Again, seemingly random. There was no rhyme or reason. There was no point. And since it was so random and there was less than an hour in between these attacks, everybody was in chaos, was in panic, fearing for their lives. Now this theme continued. It was about half an hour from those last murders

Oh, and it was about half an hour again a little bit less than that actually 8 to 37 a.m. Yeah, Aspen Hill, Maryland Yeah, so what's the math on that I'd like 25 minutes later. Okay, I believe This victim her name was Sarah Ramos she was 34 years old she was sitting on a bench outside of the post office no just sitting there people would start to panic. Mm-hmm. Nobody was safe, right? No. You literally could not sit in public without being in

fear for your life. You couldn't be at your job as a landscaper. No. You couldn't show yourself in public. Imagine the fear they must have felt. You know, like, I'm thinking of how I would be feeling, right? Yeah.

And fearing for my family? Yeah. It's panic inducing and I can't... Yeah, it'd be that kind of question of like, hey, did you hear the news? It's like, yeah, it's like, okay, well, I need to go to work. And it's like, honey, like, can you not go to work today? No, like you're staying home today.

Yeah. And then of course there's the people that will be like, that's on the other side of town or like, to work today if you're not seeing what's happening. Like you're staying home today. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course there's the people that will be like, that's on the other side of town or like, you know, like what are the chances that it's going to, you know, happen again today? And then it does. Yes. So it would continue.

837 was when Sarah, the lady sitting outside the post office, was killed. It was about an hour, a little over an hour later, 9 58 a.m. This time over in Washington, DC. Lori Ann Lewis Riviera, she was 25 years old. She was cleaning out her car at the gas station. Just vacuuming it out. No rhyme or reason. That we know of. Once again it was just another broad daylight random shooting like you said for no rhyme or reason. Increasing public fear. It was just building upon building upon building.

When would these guys stop? Yeah at this point it's four Right in one day. Yeah, we're in one day five total at this point. When would this stop? It seemed like it would never let up right it was happening on and on once over again, yeah now the final victim on October 3rd happened in Silver Spring, Maryland. This one was at 9.20 p.m. So it seems like they took a lot of time off at this point.

They really let people calm down and then bam. Right back up. No, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so the whole day goes by. People are fearing for their lives. Maybe they start to ease down a little bit because there hasn't been a shooting in 12 hours. Yeah. Still. You know, until it happens, things got crazy. Silver Spring, Maryland. The victim was Pascal Charlotte. He was 72. He was walking down the street. Walking down the street, Georgia Avenue, and he was killed.

Once again. Very random. But it was the last attack for that day. They didn't know that at the time, right? Yeah, but it was a last attack of the day. But it really solidified that this sniper could move around and was entirely unpredictable. Yeah, did do you know like how soon like the media covered this case like? It was almost instantly right? Okay. I mean They took precaution like reporters and whatnot. I imagine that would be outside because you're you you're like hey You gotta go report. It's like killing I report from the studio. Yep. Yeah. Yeah

I report from the studio. Yep. Yeah. Yeah And in all of these cases or with all these victims, they were all struck by one single bullet Okay fired from the distance So it wasn't just like I would say like an amateur like they knew what they were doing no definitely not They they were experienced, you know, they knew what they were doing, like you mentioned. Yeah. News spread. The fear spread. Press conferences, the chief of police for Montgomery County, Maryland Police Department. Keep everyone indoors. Keep your family safe. Yeah. Everywhere, lots of places went into lockdown because they were not sure everything got canceled.

And the worst part was that the police had little evidence to work with. Yeah. No, I mean, what do you have to go off a body and that might be it some bodies some Frantic calls made in by some witnesses saying oh it was a white box truck or no It was a blue sedan actually no it was a gray truck You know things like that One thing that they did have though is that... Oh, hello. I'm here.

No, I was... You froze for a split second. Oh, did I freeze? I thought I was just like not moving. Oh, I don't know. Maybe. Okay. One thing that they did have was they knew that all of these...

The bullet caliber, it was a.223 caliber rifle, which commonly is the caliber of bullet that is fired from an AR-15. So an AR-15 style rifle. And that's really the only thing that they had to go off of. That doesn't really round things down. No it doesn't, right? So they spent the night trying to figure out who this guy was and how they were going to catch them. Well over the night, well into the next day. Yeah, because how do you catch someone that just has random killings?

Where there's like no pattern. Exactly. They know of, you know. Exactly. They know of, you know. Exactly. So now it's October 4th, the next day, and another one of the victims is shot. It's 2.30 p.m. in Fredericksburg, Virginia, which means they're now traveling a little bit further around. Okay. You know, so they started out in Maryland, then they're in Washington, D.C., now they're now traveling a little bit further around Okay, now so they started out in Maryland and they're Washington DC now. They're in Virginia. They're not saying so these guys are mobile They're not staying still which I assume only contributes to the panic

100% 100% So this victim her name was Caroline Sewell. She was 43 Her name was Caroline Sewell. She was 43. She just got back from the grocery store. No! And she was in the parking lot. She was just, you know, putting her groceries away. Wow. Thankfully, this was the first victim who did survive. She did not pass away from the shooting. But since the police were now examining more of the bullets, they of course examined the bullet, and they did link it to those previous killings.

So at this point, they had solid evidence that this was the same person committing all of these crimes. Yeah. That was the only shooting on October 4th. And I mentioned, this went on for weeks, right? Yeah, the fear. October 3rd was the main day that everything happened,

but there was still fear for weeks on end. Yeah, I'm sure, I think that was the day that they were like, today it's like, when we make ourself known, and we just get them to live in fear for who knows how long yep Because people like this, you know, they get off on fear, right? Like they Yeah, they don't need like reason 100% 100%

So October 4th, it was just Caroline. Thankfully she did survive fast forward a few days, October 7th. So two, three days go by at this point. It's 8.09 a.m. this is in Bowie, Maryland. This victim, their name is Eran Brown, who was only 13 years old. No! He was being dropped off to school. He was walking through the door. Thankfully he did survive. But he was by far the youngest victim. And it really showed that nobody was off limits. Especially as you're walking through the door. It's more of like, okay, it's a school shooter, like, I'm sure that the school had to treat

it as an active shooter and you know Probably like I don't know exactly what that protocol was. I'm sure I could find it if I look into it a bit Yeah, I mean, it's also like an injured student So of course it's like what do we do like we have an injured student? But we have to like close the school down, but we need them to get like help so yeah, yeah Wow so Yeah, he was So, um, yeah. He was walking into his middle school. Benjamin Tasker Middle School.

The fear that, like, the parents felt when they found out, wow. Yeah. Luckily he survived. And, I'll get into a bit later, but he actually did testify at the trial after these guys were caught. So that was very nice. They found a shell casing, law enforcement did, which I believe this was the first one that they found. So it almost felt like evidence that they left behind on purpose, maybe to sort of, you know, taunt the police in a way. Do you think, like, they left it on purpose? I think they did. And the reason why I think that is because, um... at the scene where they discovered that shell casing,

they also discovered a tarot card. Oh! Can you take a guess at what tarot card. Oh... Can you take a guess at what tarot card it was? So... For those that don't know tarot, I am sure that they would assume the Death card. But for those that know tarot decks, I assume they would say the Tower. Was it one of those? Close.

Oh. It was the Death card. Okay, so Death, yeah? Close. Oh. It was the death card. Okay, so death, yeah, okay. But that wasn't it. So, on the front of the card there was a phrase written. It said, call me God. And on the back

it said, for you, Mr. Police, code, call me God. do not release to the press. And of course, I mean, I don't know, did they not? I mean, they tried not to. But the press somehow heard. Of course they got it the next day. Yeah, okay. Yeah.

But at this point, the police knew it was a game. They were being taunted. These snipers, the- the- the victim, the murderers were wanting to get caught. Maybe? Who knows? I don't think it's that they wanted to get caught. I mean, I don't know the story like you do, but I see it as a- they're wanting to show authorities how unprepared they are for situations like this and like how much in control they are and the cops are not but I

don't know. 100% but I mean my theory I can dive all I want into like the behavior and the analysis or whatever yeah but that's the FBI's job. They got involved. Yes they did. They got involved. No way. Yes they did. The FBI as well as many other federal agencies and departments all around. The primary point of investigation was through the Montgomery County, Maryland Police Department. But they got so much support, so many like task forces and mobile command stations set up by mainly the FBI but also lots of different agencies. Okay. So yeah, they the FBI came into support. They actually deployed about 400 agents all across the

nation just working on this case. There was a toll-free tip line where they got lots of tips, digital mapping for crimes, and behavioral analysis for the shooter. You want to know what they got for the behavioral analysis? Um, I don't know, like narcissists, like psychosis, I don't know. What did like psychosis. I don't know what that they get. He was a white male Okay, I could have told you that I could have told you that Also, yeah, no like I could have just like Yeah

Well, it seems that they were only thinking it was one because you said he was a white male. Yeah. Oh, they 100% were. I mean, there was no reason to not think it was just one person. So yeah, the FBI gets in and, you know, their behavioral analysis doesn't really turn up anything because they didn't have anything to go off of. You know, they were looking at previous kill murderers and serial killers and pretty much they were all white men. So,

you know, probably a white man. Well, I could have said that. Maybe they should hire, not me, but someone with a little, I don't know. Yeah. So there was that whole business that happened. Aaron Brown, 13 year old, October 7th. Thank God he survived. That was the only thing on October 7th. Thank God he survived. That was the only thing on October 7th. Two more days would go by. October 9th would come around. It was 8 18 p.m. so this time I was at night. It was in Manassas, Virginia. This victim's name was Dean Harold Myers. He was 53 years old. What was he doing?

Just walking. Care to guess? Just walking. At a gas station. Just filling his tank. Yeah. Okay. Another one. I should switch to an electric car.

No but... Yeah. That's like a real fear that people had. Like, any stop could get them killed. Anywhere. And like I said, it was happening for weeks, right? Yeah. At this point, it's October 9th.

It's been a week since this started. Now, at this point, October, what day did you say it was? 9th. At this point, was the public aware that the FBI had gotten involved or like other government agents? 100%. Okay, so that means that the shooters also knew, and I am sure that that's what they wanted. They wanted that like thrill, the rush.

Oh yeah, they wanted this attention, right? Like, why wouldn't they? So October 9th. Now two more days go by. October 11th, 2022. Fredericksburg, Virginia. And Kenneth Bridges is shot and killed. He was 53 years old and just like a lot of the others, he was selling his gas. I guess it just makes you an easy target. You're out in the open and exposed. and Exposed not just that but I also think that

You hear a gunshot at a gas station Most people in a gas station are already in their cars or like driving So they would just keep on driving and they wouldn't think a car driving away would be suspicious. They're like, oh they also hurt the shot That's really smart Yeah, just saying. Yeah. I didn't think that until now. You might be onto something. You are onto 2022. Now this victim, her name was Linda Franklin. She was 47 years old. This one was personal. Because Linda was an FBI analyst who is in the area working the case. Ohhh. She was just at a Home Depot parking lot.

She wasn't actively on the job at the moment, but she was shot in the head and killed. How? First off, I'm just trying to figure out, how do you find out that a specific person is an FBI agent or like, analyst? Like, where did you get that information, especially like in 2002? Where would they have gotten that information? Yeah, where would they have gotten the information? Not you, not you, I'm sure. Yeah. But I'm curious where the killer got that information.

I think there's two lines of thinking. Is that one, just like the other one, victims, it was just completely random. Yeah. Right? And it was coincidence that it happened to be an FBI analyst. Yeah. Or two, maybe they were like staking out this investigation. Maybe they saw Linda working the case and they decided to maybe target her. Yeah. So there's those two ways to look at it something that just popped in my head as you were talking about this last latest shooting

Where all the people that shot like that got shot were they alone or like did they have like someone with them? I? Believe they were all alone. Okay Yeah, or like in the case of you know the, the kid, you know, his parents, you know, dropped him off and so he was surely walking away. There was that moment that he was alone. Yeah. Okay. On the 14th, when Linda, the analyst, was shot and killed, the police actually received

a really good tip, a really good lead. It was from a witness who was inside of the Home Depot. Oh. And so, there was a lot of information given from this witness, which really helped out the police... until it didn't. Because it was determined that the witness was lying. So, was it a good tip? No. Okay, it sounded like a good tip, but when it came to verification they're like

that's just a lie. Yeah, so they later found out they later did charge this person for, you know, interfering with the investigation. Yeah. Yeah. Do we know? I mean, I'm sure you'll get into it, but like, if the FBI took it personal? I think they did. I mean, of course-

Like, they weren't like, there's no way that this is just a random- Yeah. I mean, there's- of course they didn't like, let up, right? I'm sure now that more than ever they were to double to catch this guy Yeah October 14th five days go by it's now October 19th. It has been over two weeks Since the shooting started October 19th in Ashland, Virginia

Another victim Jeffrey Hopper. He's 37. He was just in the parking lot walking into a restaurant. He's going to go eat. No. Thankfully, he was one of the people that survived. Okay. So. You said at the start of the story that there was three survivors? Three. So this is the second

three yeah, I'm just thinking of this whole situation and I Don't know if it's Beneficial like I mean of course pros and cons, but you know if the shooters decided to stop and like just not keep shooting I'm sure the FBI would be like it's growing cold but because they potentially shooting people I guess like they still have you know chances to find more evidence or like more witness yeah no 100% which of course pros and cons you know people are still getting shot but if people are not getting shot like it's harder to track them down or yeah, yeah so

The police were investigating this October 19th shooting outside the restaurant and since it's Virginia There's lots of wooded areas nearby like forest very close They searched the scene and they actually found a note in the woods. It was by the shooter. Just left randomly? From what I see, it was left to be found in a way. If the cops searched properly, they would find it, type of thing. This note demanded ten million dollars. So, maybe there was some financial motivation behind these murders now. But, when you think about it, how were these shooters gonna get that money?

Like, there was no contact info, there was no way to get to them. Oh, was it just like, we want ten million dollars? Yeah, it was pretty much just like we've demand ten million dollars. And that's it? Like nothing more? Wow. Well, there was also a threat made to children in the area. I was in it.

I'm gonna keep my child from school. Yeah. Um... Sorry, no, this is this guy, Jeffrey Hopper, he is the third victim that did survive. Okay. Yeah. So, who was the second one? We have the kid. So, yeah, it was, it was Caroline, the girl who, the lady who just got shot while she was in the parking lot parking like there we go

So she was the October 4th. She was one of the earlier ones. Mm-hmm. And then it was it on Brown the boy Yep, and then Jeffrey Hopper got it. Okay. Yeah now Three more days would go by it is is October 22nd. It has been 20 days since these shootings started. And Conrad Johnson, a man who is 35 years old in Aspen Hill, Maryland, was shot while stepping onto his bus. Shot and killed. I... that is... I...

I find that sickening because it really shows you of how cocky and confident they were that like just when you think you're safe or just when you think you're going to be out of sight like you're not. Walking into a bus. Yeah. Yeah. Like you know like when the kid was walking to school this this person's walking onto the bus. Mm-hmm. Yeah I can I can yeah the panic is real. Yeah like we can we can sit here and think about how it feels all we want but we're never gonna like at least I hope we never feel yeah what that actually was like you know and people were still feeling like this yeah what

yeah we now know is that this was the last shooting for the culture but they didn't know that But they didn't know that. There was still that fear out there. Now... Do... there's two ways we can go from here. Do you want to hear first about the capture and who these guys were or do you want to hear about some of the preliminary shootings that the law enforcement thinks are connected to both of these shooters? I would say let's go with the preliminary shootings. All right. Let's save the juiciest for last. I mean I don't know if you have something after that,

I might be being juicier, but for now, let's go with those preliminary shooters. Alright. So, there are a few shootings. Prior in the year, that are not necessary, or were not necessarily connected by evidence, but they were very much thought to be connected so yeah okay yeah so the first one believed to be

actually yeah we're here we'll do it do you want to go the other route we can go the other route you know what it's your story I don't know where we're here. We'll do it. Do you wanna go the other route? We can go the other route. You know what? It's your story. I don't know where we're going. Yeah, we're gonna go the other route. Yeah, yeah. You're behind the wheel, not me. We're gonna go the other route.

Sounds good to me. All right. I'm sure it'll make sense when we get to it. It will, it will. It makes more sense when you actually know a bit more about these guys, I would say. So October 22nd was the last shooting. But of course they didn't know that. The next day, October 23rd, was pretty significant as well.

There was more investigation that was going on. They provided, they searched more of the bullets and the casings that they found and they connected all of those DC sniper murders together. But they still couldn't find anything. It was still so random, right? Cause I also don't think, like, I mean, I'm just trying to think that because they're traveling so much, they probably have multiple like hideouts. Yeah.

They, or, or they had hideouts or they had somewhere to go or to just lay low and not be uncovered, right? Mm-hmm. So, the big break in this case... Funny enough... Was that a gas station? Came from the snipers themselves. Yeah, okay, okay. No, yeah. That's usually how it goes.

They give themselves out. Okay. Going back to October 17th, the tip line with the FBI that they set up, it received a call from somebody claiming to be the sniper.

You know, they were teasing in a way, being provocative, trying to get the attention. The sniper said that he was responsible for the murder of two women in a month before in Montgomery, Alabama. So essentially admitting to a crime. Now of course, what does the FBI and the investigators do? They look into that crime.

So the next few days are what really gets things going with this investigation. The investigators, they go back, they research this case. They don't find that this exact case happened, but something very similar, something very similar had taken place in Montgomery, Alabama, where the sniper mentioned. And in that case, there was evidence from the rifle, so ballistics of the bullets and there was a casing. Oh, and did it match? There also was a fingerprint that was found in that case.

Okay. So an FBI agent in the Mobile, Alabama area, they went there, they gathered that evidence, they went over to Washington, D.C. and they arrived on the morning of Monday October 21st. So they took this evidence, they investigated it and their fingerprint database got a match. So they found the name. Somebody named Lee Boyd Malvo. He was previously arrested in Washington State, so across the country. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. But they had a suspect. So this arrest, though, also came up with some more information. The arrest record, there was also another person of interest named in the report. John Alan Muhammad was a name.

So that name was recognized by one of the agents as a tip that was called in. So they did investigation. The ATF, the alcohol tobacco firearms investigators, they really took lead on the firearm investigation and they found out that Mohammed had a two, two, three rifle in his possession. Oh. They really give themselves out. Wow. Yep. Wow. So they were able to obtain a, you know, federal arrest warrant for him. They had what they needed. And so they did more info. They looked for him. And on October 22nd, they found that Muhammad had

a blue Chevy registered in his name. And that blue Chevy was given to the news. Right? They were like, this is the car. Yes. Here's pictures. Get it out there. So people were going, people were excited to find these guys. And two days later on the morning of October 24th, they got the calls. They got the tip. This vehicle was located. So the Maryland State Police, the SWAT team, the FBI's top special agents in their hostage response team, everywhere. They located this car, they raided it, and they found John Alan Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo asleep. Just in the car. Oh, they were sleeping in the car?

They were sleeping in the car. So, you mentioned they had some type of hideout or whatever. Yeah, I was assuming they would have multiple, you know, going across, you know. Well, technically, they could bring their hideout anywhere. I also thought that maybe the vehicle might be their hideout, but I was also thinking that might be kind of dumb. Wow. Well, they had it a hideout and they also had it modified. So they cut a hole in the trunk

to be able to fire out of. And so it was a sniper's nest in a way. Yeah. That move and that's how they were never, were able to get away so quickly. No. And he also brought up the fact that at the gas station by the streets there's cars driving

away. Yeah. You see a car driving away, you're not going to think anything of it. Exactly, especially when you hear like a gunshot because they're like, okay, everyone's driving away from the gunshot. Mm-hmm. Oh! So, there were some things.

They were able to find the Bushmaster 223 rifle in the car, a scope, they found other evidence, they found a recorder with extortion demands. One of the coolest things that I think that the FBI found was the owner's manual of the Chevy. They did like an analysis of it. And they actually found the impression of them writing that $10 million demand note. Oh, like when they wrote it on the paper. They wrote it on it, like went through.

It was on the top of the manual, you know, to use it as, what? That's so cool, right? That is really cool, yeah. Yeah. My favorite pieces of evidence that they found. But another thing that they found was a stolen laptop. And this leads me into the preliminary shooting case.

Okay. Let's get this connected. So we now know that the two murderers, these two assholes, only way to describe them, are Mohammed and Malvo, is how I'll be referring to them. So some of these aren't really officially linked, some of them maybe. They're all in 2002, so earlier in the year before the main DC shootings had happened. The first one was February 16th 2002. It was in Tacoma, Washington. So Washington, all the way across the street where they got arrested before. A lady named Kenya Cook, she was 21, she was shot and killed in her home. Okay.

So, apparently she was sort of connected to Muhammad's ex-wife. So Kina Cook, the lady who was killed, she like helped out Muhammad's ex-wife during their divorce. And so it seemed like there was maybe some personal motive there, right? Like a revenge or whatever. I mean, once you make that connection, you'll know that it wasn't at random. Of course, yeah. Yeah.

March 19th, 2002. So a couple, a month after that was in Tucson, Arizona. So they made their way down a bit. Okay. This guy, his name was Jerry Taylor he was 50 years old or 60 years old sorry he was just at a golf course you know just shooting and he was killed. Okay wow. Malvo did actually later admit to the shooting. September 5th 2002 in Clinton, Maryland. So now they're over on the East Coast. They've made their way over there. Paul La Ruffa, he was shot actually six times

Yeah, he was shot six times, but he survived miraculously So okay go ahead I don't know where to go with this now Paul You know they believe this was sort of an attempted robbery Of this restaurant okay, and so Paul had gotten his laptop stolen from him. Oh, that was his laptop. Was the one that was found in the car. So that's why they think it was a robbery. That's why they tied them to this one.

Yeah. Okay. Now there's a couple others, September 14th, 2002, Silver Spring, Maryland, another guy, Rupinder Oberoi, he was shot outside of a liquor store Well there's September 14th 2002 Silver Spring, Maryland. Another guy, Rupinder Oberoi, he was shot outside of a liquor store he'd managed to survive. September 15th 2002 in Brandywine, Maryland was Mohammed Rashid who also did survive after he was shot outside of just a convenience store.

And September 21st 2002 in Atlanta, Georgia. So they made their way over a little bit. This person's name was Millian Aielli. She did survive as well. She was just shot in the back while walking down the street. Wow. Now, at this point, it's late September and they're getting really close to these. I was gonna say Did they?

Whoever was in charge like FBI whatever agents who was in charge Did they make this connections before they caught them or only after they caught them only after okay? Yeah, cuz they were doing more research and they found you know these random sniper shootings, essentially. A couple of them, but there's other ones, you know, the one Malvo admitted to, the connect, the one before that connection with Mohammed's ex-wife, and then of course the laptop directly tying that evidence there. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Yeah. So, I forgot, I forgot to mention what time, because I it was 3 15 a.m. When they were captured. Okay. Yeah Yeah, so, you know, they were sound asleep in their car I guess the aftermath of that They were brought to trial. It was a pretty easy trial. You know, they had a lot of evidence. They had some testimonies from some of the victims like I mentioned, you know, the Boy happened in the fall season of 2003, so not too long after that. They were both found guilty of murder charges, weapons charges. Mohammed was sentenced to death. He, I believe, spent six years in prison. Yeah, he spent six years in prison before he was executed.

Okay, it's what I was going to ask you, if they had the death penalty. Mm-hmm. Okay, sounds like they did. In Malvo, he was sentenced to life without parole. Okay. Which was later reconsidered because Malvo was only 17 when he was committing these crimes. How old was Muhammad?

Muhammad was... Umm... 41. Okay. Yeah, I can see why they would reconsider that because it's a kill-and-spree across the country. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see why they would do that.

So... They later, you know, revisited it. Malvo is still in prison to this day. Okay. I said he has a life sentence actually, he received Nine life sentences. Okay. Okay. No as soon as you were taking a pause. I was like, yeah multiple. Yeah. Okay so

He Hopefully is never going to get out of prison. I know he was 17 when he committed these but that doesn't matter No, I would not murder people. It's what I was gonna say. I was like, okay He's 17. The other guy was like 40 something or 50 something. Yeah 41 Would I write can reconsider like life in prison for the 17 year? Maybe what I still want him in prison prison. Yes. Yeah Yeah And I get yeah. Yeah Wow So, of course this changed a lot of things right security was upped in

Every public place of course now so many activities and public events were just cancelled for really the year after. A question about the snipers. Yeah. I don't know how much details you have. Were they re- they were not related, were they? I don't believe they were. Okay.

Um. Is there any like, anything that you know of how they came across each other or like how they decided to do this or why? Let me Look that up really quick cool. No cuz I was just curious about that. I was like what What could like a 17 year old and a 41 or 42 have in common for them to have like met right? Yeah Yeah, yeah, that's not something I really looked into but no, that's fine. I mean, that's fine. It's part of the mystery. Umm... Umm...

I'm not sure, I mean... No, that's fine, because my follow-up question to that was going to be, how did the 17-year-old parents, like, react? Like, that they know that he that what do he tell them? I don't Don't know I think his parents so Malvo Malvo was from Jamaica and so I So, Malvo was from Jamaica, and so I imagine his parents were still in Jamaica, right? And they never even really heard of him.

Or heard from him, I guess. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not entirely sure how they met. It could have been some type of just like, you know, fucky terrorist stuff going on type of thing. Like it's interesting. No, it really gets you to think like, how did those two people that, you know, no, seriously, and then agreed to do this? Like, how does, how does that

conversation go? go. Mmhmm. Um, so, I guess, I'll go into like, first of all, like this was one of the most complex and difficult investigations that had really ever taken place. No. Because at first they didn't realize that it was going to be multiple occurrences. OK, then they discovered that it was, but they had no evidence. And now they were getting lots of info, tips from people, that all turned out to be wrong. And they weren't making much headway.

It really wasn't for them calling in and admitting to being a sniper, right? That eventually helped them to actually... If... Do we know who called in? Um... I... It probably would have been Muhammad, just because he's older and he's like more the leader, you know? Okay. I'm just curious because I think depending on who called in... Like if the 17 year old called in I asked like knowing what I know now I would assume that like maybe he regretted how things were going or maybe he wanted out and that's the only way he saw It as a way out, but I I mean, you know

Doesn't matter they still kill people like it's it's still horrible. But yeah, I Guess people like it's it's still horrible but yeah I guess yeah no it's it's terrible I'm just thinking Muhammad was a former like army soldier and so maybe like the military brought them together or something. I can see that. Maybe he showed some interest and he's like, oh like I was in the military or something. Yeah. I'm not entirely sure. But they were arrested. They were taken into custody.

Of course, Muhammad was given the death sentence. Malvo is still serving life in prison. Thankfully, this case really set the standard for multiple agency cooperation and how to do that efficiently. And just making investigations like this forward and better prepared for, as well as, um, just better active shooter response and reactions. So, you know, uh, there was a lot of bad that came from it, but there was a lot of good as well. Yeah. I was like, something came out of it, even if it's not what we wanted it. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I was like something came out of it even if it's not what we wanted it Yeah, cool

How would you Have Gotten away With what I mean, I wouldn't have gotten away. Oh, oh, I was thinking from a victim side I was like, I would know like as as the shooters or You were if you were in charge of the investigation would you have handled it differently? What could you have handled differently? as The shooters I think that is

It's always a mistake. It's always their ego that gets in the way They always want acknowledgement of like, I got away with it. But that never satisfy them. Like, they want to be caught so they can brag that they got away with it. Yeah. I don't know. Fingers crossed I'm never in that position. But no, like, I think... It's crazy to think, but like, I'm sure we've heard it before and we've talked about it before, but like, we'll never hear about the perfect crime because they got away with it. Beasley got away with it, yeah.

Exactly. I don't know where I heard it from, but there was like a quote of some kind of like, you know, from like police officers that like, the only reason we're able to solve these crimes is because criminals are stupid. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I mean, thinking of this, yeah, yeah, of course. As an agent from FBI or any other agency, how would I go about it? I generally don't even know where I would start. I definitely would have not connected shootings from other states so early on the year with what's currently happening. So it makes sense that they don't connect them until they start gathering more evidence, they find the laptop,

but I don't know. Because you can't really, cause it's so random, you can't really bait them. Mhm. There's not like, it's not like a racial crime. Everyone's fair game, even children, so you can't really bait them. Yeah. And I think that's what makes it scary.

That's what it was. It was just pure fear for three weeks. Yeah. That's crazy. Anyway, that is the story of the DC sniper attacks. Well thank you. I had not heard about them before. Um, and yeah, I know that that's definitely... I think that's... hearing this story, like, I now have another fear.

Of just a shooting happening randomly? I mean... Yeah, I mean... We live in America. What does it... what guarantees that you won't? Nothing. No. Yeah, you're right. It can happen at any time. Yeah, wow, thank you. Well, what do you have for us?

Well, you're in the East Coast. We're gonna come back. We're coming back to the West Coast. Okay, all right, West Coast. Yeah, yeah, we're coming back to the west coast. Okay, all right. West coast? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't want to be too close to them. Yeah, yeah, oh, for sure. Now for this case, funnily enough, we're heading out to Washington. Wow, maybe we'll run into Malvo and Mohammed up there. Oh my god. Um, maybe, maybe not. Who knows?

Um, but we're heading up to north, up north to Washington, uh, to a small city of, I had to look this up because I could not pronounce it, but it's quite simple. It's Snohomish. Snohomish. S-O-S-N-O-H-O-M-I-S-H. Yes, Snohomish. Yes, Snohomish. Snohomish.

Snohomish. Snohomish. Snohomish. Snohomish. Snohomish? Fun name. Snohomish. S-O-S-N-O-H-O-M-I-S-H. Yeah, Snohomish. Yeah. Snohomish. That's a fun name. It is. It is. And for this city, town, it's about a 40 minute drive from Seattle. It's like northeast when I looked at the map.

So not too far. Okay. Nowadays it's known for its charm and historic district, antique shops. Snumhomish has a long and layered past. Like it's been shaped by pioneers, industry, and of course a few dark secrets because I wouldn't be talking about it if it didn't have a few dark secrets. If it didn't. Yeah.

Now, the city was officially founded. I'm going with a little history of the town because As always, yeah. We need to know where we are. Snohomish was founded in 1859. It was originally serving as a small trading post along the Snohomish River. And at the time, the land was heavily forested, so it made it perfect for logging the primary industry that drove the early settlements at the time. Timber barons quickly took notice notice and by the late 1800s, the city had become a key supplier

of lumber for the rapidly growing Puget Sound region. Now by 1888, the arrival of the Great Northern Railway transformed the settlement into a thriving economic center. The new rail lines allowed goods people and ideas to flow into snow home-ish at an unprecedented rate fueling further just the growth. Businesses started to grow, they catered to the growing population of the loggers. Mill workers and riverboat crews also start to call the town their home. And like, this is history.

We know that with prosperity, history often comes with hardships. Yeah, of course. Yeah. The Panic of 1893 was a nationwide economic depression. And of course, Snohomish was also hit hard by it. Many businesses started to fail. The industries came to stand stills. And some buildings that had been bustling centers, like the Black Man's Dry Goods store, and some buildings that had been bustling centers,

like the Black Man's Dry Goods store, like the largest in the county at the time, was forced to close. And a lot of those buildings were just repurposed for new things. Now, as the economy started to recover, Snuhomish found new ways to reinvent itself. That's awesome.

By the early 1900s, saloons, hotels, and entertainment venues became the heart of the city's social life. Now, the town had a reputation for being a bit rowdy, with drinking, gambling, underground business operations, and like, things happening in the cover of night. So some say that this is where the town's more ghostly legends began. Of like whispers of like restless spirits, tragic jabs, like buildings that never quite writ themselves or their past. Now, we're not really talking about the whole city of Snohomish,

but we are talking about one building in particular. Now, do you have any idea what this building might be? I have no clue what this building is. No, fair, fair. Um, so we're heading- Excuse me. Um, to the one and only, the Oxford Saloon. I've never heard of it before. Fair. I did it until I started researching the story. So the Oxford Saloon was built in the early 1900s and

it started off as Black Man's Dry Goods Store. It was at the time the largest store in the Snohomish County, boasting an inventory of 20,000 items. And then following the economic downturn during the panic of 1893, the building began to transition from a grocery store to various establishments. At some point it was a furniture shop. At some point it was a furniture shop. At some point it was a shoe shop. So, you know, the building stayed and it was just repurposed. Now, at some point, like I said, it became a saloon.

And that's what this case, like, is around, it's based on. It surrounds the saloon. Because nothing really started happening until it became a saloon. And unfortunately, or fortunately for the listeners and you, as I was researching, you know, things that happen in the saloon, paranormal things that go here that go there. Because that's what I'm covering, paranormal. We gotta learn all about it. Yeah. Trauma, things like that, energy being left behind. I was able to find a story that I was not too happy I found.

I mean, I'm glad I found it for the case, but I was not too happy that this happened. Okay. That's a little scary. That's a little concerning. So, I have two newspaper articles from 1904. During 1904, it was already a saloon. The first article is from Colfax, Washington,

Friday, January 29th, 1904. And the second one is from the spokesman's review, Spokane, Washington, Tuesday, January 26th, 1904. Rather than going in chronological order with this too, I'm gonna start with the one from January 29th, and then we'll cover the one from January 26. Because I just think it gives you a little bit more insight. So, the headline says, crime at the Oxford.

And it says, Ina Lee, 16 years old, victim of vicious boys. Okay. And it continues by saying, three young men are under arrest and their preliminary trial is set for today. Now this is a little bit long, so bear with me, but also like feel free to interrupt me or pause me at any time for more questions. When was this again?

1904. 1904, do you know the day? January, this was published on January 29th. January 29th 1904. Got it. Yes, the other one was published in January 26 So it happened on January 21st Got it. And it starts by saying And it starts by saying, The usually quiet town of Colfax has been stirred from the center to circumference during the past week by the occurrence of a terrible crime, committed in a room over the Oxford Saloon.

Thursday night, January 21st. The details of the outrage are too sickening to be allowed in print, and the Gazette, in this instance, will not depart from its usual custom of giving the pertinent facts in connection For all evidence obtainable it appears that on Thursday evening, January 21st Charles Jacobson, a young man about 19 years old, met a girl by the name of Ina Lee on the street and induced her to accompany him to a room over at the Oxford Saloon. Pleasant Lee Francis Jr., son of P. Lee Francis, proprietor of the Oxford, and Patty Berker, a bartender at the saloon, visited

the room occupied by young Jacob and the girl. A number of drinks were served, and the girl became intoxicated. The young man became reckless and vicious. After the intoxication of Ina Lee had been accomplished, the room was visited by a number of other young men. Among them, the sons of prominent citizen residing near Colfax. As the drunken orgy continued, the young man became devoid of all sense of decency and subjected the helpless form of the poor intoxicated girl to all sorts of indigencies.

And the outrage soon became the subject of comment and indifferent saloons of the city. Before midnight, it was assessed all the rounders and loafers before the bars knew what was going on at the Oxford saloon. Alexander Kindness, that's his last name. Better known as Scotty, the red-whiskered man who had charged of the Oxford during the absence of P. Lee Francis Sr. went to the room and attempted to quiet down the drunken mob. But young Lee Francis ordered him from the house and gave him to understand that he had nothing to say regarding the actions of boys. The enraged Scotty, to such an extent that when he went out onto the streets, he met chief of police, J.B. McKay,

and told him what was going on at Oxford. Now this is where, like I said, I don't like this article a lot. Mr. McKay told kindness that he was on his way home to bed and that policeman Alifia was on duty and would attend to the matters. Kynas is asserted, also informed Alifia, who merely made a remark regarding the character of the girl and took no steps whatsoever to apprehend those that had engaged in the commission of the crime. The next morning, the subject was common property on the streets, and it came to the ear of

Sheriff Knute, who immediately took matters in his own hands and secured the apprehension of the girl as she was about to take a train for Pullman. She was taken to the county jail and Alexander Kynas was called to identify her, which he did at the same time giving information regarding those who were implicated in the affair. As soon as the sheriff began to make arrest of the people, commenced to inquire into the facts. Okay. The indignation of the public was so roused that it was the unanimous consensus of opinion

that Chief McKay and Policeman Alfia should be removed from office. Okay. Which I'm in agreement. Okay. Which I'm in agreement. That the license for the Oxford saloon should also be revoked. And that those guilty of perpetrating the crime be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Oh my god. So word got out to the public and they all said,

Yeah I did. Get them fired, shut it down. We're not going light on these guys. Like, you gotta get on this shit. Now it continues by saying, When an indignant public began to clamor to know why the peace officers of the city, knowing of the offence being committed and being cognizant at the time of its occurrence, that the bounties of decency and proprietary were being outraged and trampled underfoot. Did not do their duty. Chief McKay and Policeman Alpia for the first time realized that they were in the predicament

which would be hard for them to explain away. This officials went to kindness and told him that he must make an affidavit clearing them of all knowledge of the affair and denying that they had ever informed them of the matters they mentioned. Such pressure was brought to bear that Scotty went before the notary public and subscribed to a sworn statement to that effect. When kindness set his signature to the affidavit, it is thought that he committed perjury.

For there are many who heard him relate that he had informed officers. Just what action will be taken against him is not known, but in all probability he will be arrested for making a false affidavit. As he should. Yeah, so you know, the cops didn't do their job and then this man says, fine, the cops are in my ass, I'll give them what they want. But the public says, no, we want justice. Now Charles Jacobson and Pleasant Lee Frank Jr. were arrested, charged with exposing the

person of another, but at their preliminary hearing Tuesday morning before Justice Elf B. Doolittle, Prosecuting Attorney Hannah dismissed those cases and entered a felony charge against the two young men. Justice Doolittle placed their bonds at $1,000 each and set today, Friday, as the time of further hearing. These are two charges against Patty Burke, neither of which are as serious as those against Jacob's son and Lee Francis. He was placed under a $750 bond for hearing next Monday morning. Doubtless there will be another arrest made, but officers are not given out names at present.

And then we talk about the victim. Inna Lee, the victim of the young man, is an orphan girl who has lived in Whiteman County for several years. When a child, she resided at the St. James' home in Union Flat. But recently she's been working as a domestic in the Hamilton neighborhood. Undoubtedly the prosecuting attorney has evidence showing that she is under 16 years of age. Wow. Yep.

For he has preferred a charge against the young men, which if proven means a state prison sentence. The girl is to be 16 years of age. And this is where my transcript went wrong because it said the girl is about 16 years of age. That's right. But then the transcript said, rather large for one that age. There's no mention of that.

So we're going to skip right through that. Okay. I'll add the clippings on the website and Instagram so people can read them. Mostly a website because they'll be too tiny for the Instagram. And it continues by saying, she is therefore the more entitled to protection of the law. For her very demeanor indicates that she is incapable of caring for herself as she should. Damn. Which I'm like, you don't have to read her so badly.

But sure, I guess she's incapable of taking herself. That's what it's going to take to get justice. Now, next, I'm going to read you the one from January 26, which was before this, before the previous one. It's a little shorter. I'm going to cut things out that we've already heard, but it just says, result of Lee outrage. Three young men to face penitentiary charges. Colfax council chamber packed with citizens. Alexander Kynness may be accused. Colfax, Washington, January 25th. Pleasant Lee Francis Jr., son of the perpetrator of the Oxford saloon, was today arrested on

a charge of criminal assaults on Ida Lee, the 16-year-old girl whose terrible story has created such excitement in the Colfax and throughout the Pallhouse County. The prisoner is said to be 17 years old. He was born and reared in Whiteman County and was employed as a bartender in the saloon of his father. Okay. He is charged with being one of the gang who cruelly treated the girl last Thursday night in a room over at the Oxford Saloon.

Four other young men who are charged with being implicated had fled. Lee Francis has been in hiding since Friday but was captured today by Sheriff Canett and taken to the county jail. He was taken before Justice Doolittle where he entered a plea of guilty to unlawful cohabitation and was released under $300 bonds to appear tomorrow. When he, Patty Burke, and Charleston Jacob will be charged with criminal assault under the special statute making it a felony The girl being under 18 years old Now when this happened the City Council got involved

Yeah, the special meeting of the council tonight, called by Mayor Van Shoik to investigate the charges against Marshall McKay and Deputy Alpen for failure to do their duty when called upon to arrest the young men who were maltreating the girl. Businessmen and many of the best citizens of Colfax were present, packing the council's chamber, the halls and stairways, and extending to the street. The charges were read, and it was agreed to meet Wednesday night, January 27th, to make a thorough investigation.

And then we get to learn about things that have happened at this Oxford Saloon because it says, Okay. Patty Burke and Charles Jacobson are still in county jail. Those were the two people that were working at the saloon at the time. Got it. Being unable to make furnished bonds. Burke was employed as a bartender in the Oxford Saloon. He is the bartender who recently supplied liquor to

Joseph Richardson, who stood before the bar and drank 17 glasses of beer. Oh my god! And then fell dead. Yep. What? First of all, how do you drink that much beer and like just keep going? Yes. And he dies from it?

And then he just dies at the bar. So... Drink till you drop. I guess so. Be careful. I guess so. Be careful. Yup. It says, it is charged that Burke had offered to supply all the liquor Richardson could drink and that the victim was already drunk when he began the contest, which resulted in his death. Okay. He's charged with having treated the girl in an unmentionable manner while she was helplessly drunk.

And then they talk about kindness with the whole perjury. So we already talked about that. But there is a quote that I will read from him. So it says, Marshall McKay told the Spokeman's Review correspondent on Main Street in the presence of witness that kindness had notified him and asked him to arrest the gang. A number have stated that Alpen told them that kindness had told him of what was occurring, and Alpen said, I thought she was nothing but an old cat and did not interfere. So that is one of the first dark things I found in the saloon.

It's not even one of the better known things that happened in the saloon. Really? Yeah. No, like I just type in the name at the newspaper clippings and I found it and I was like wow I was like is this from the right state as I get to the only Oxford saloon in the country This was like one of the only like accounts or like newspaper clippings talking about it about like yeah about that Yeah, so once again when it comes to paranormal a lot of things can be left behind people can die Yeah, traumat of things can be left behind. People can die. Yeah, 100%.

Traumatizing things can happen. Ida, poor girl, 16 years old. And then, we're gonna skip to 1917. This is a short newspaper clipping from the Spokeman Reviews, Spoke in Washington, from January 7th, 1917, and it simply says, the old Oxford saloon, which has long been known as the gathering place for the lawmakers to obtain liquid refreshments,

is now a soft drinking emporium where pool and billards are played, and a bowling alley may also be found. That's cool. Could not find any proof of that bowling alley, but if they had one at some point, that's kind of cool. Yeah, I mean it makes sense that they had a bowling alley, honestly. That's pretty cool.

Why not? Bring people in. Anyway, but as I was saying with the whole story of Snohomish. As the city grew, the building's purpose changed. By the 1910, it became a saloon, like officially. And as we've seen before and as we've heard before from earlier, where there's alcohol, there is a lively nightlife. And of course, there's bound to be a few dark secrets. Now, the saloon worked in an interesting way. First floor, bar. The second floor was meant to serve as a boarding house, but the local legends say that it became something else

entirely. People say that it was a high class brothel. No, you expected. What is a high class brothel? So let me get a little bit into it. Yeah. Because the high class brothel was run by a woman named Kathleen or Katherine, depending on the source. Most of the time I heard Kathleen and it's also what's on their website, so I'll go with Kathleen. So, while many madams of the era worked directly with their establishments, Kathleen was different. She was never one to go and get her hands dirty. Instead, she orchestrated everything from a safe distance.

She operated from the Eagle's Lodge, where she kept her office, and it was just down the road. Even though she was in charge of the brothel, she didn't work in the building. So, from the Eagle's Lodge is where she would curate an elite clientele. And she would set meetings with precision and discretion. So, unlike the rough and often dangerous life of many brothels at the time,

Kathleen was different, at least on the surface. It was said to be a high-class operation, catering to men of means and influence. Oh, I see what they mean. A high-class brothel, yeah. All right. Yeah. of means and influence. Oh, I see what they mean. A high class brothel, yeah. Alright. It was a private club type of thing. Exactly, exactly.

She was known for her strict rules, her refusal to tolerate disrespect, and her uncanny ability to anticipate problems before they ever arose. So some say she even had the local authorities in her pocket, ensuring that her business can continue without interference. But for all her control, there were some things she couldn't stop downstairs. Because the bar wasn't as glamorous.

The Oxford Saloon became notorious for violence and death. Many of these tragic events taking place in or around the basement. A location known for its intense paranormal activity today. Now, let's talk about the ghosts. Yes, that's what we're here for. Yes. One of the well-known spirits lingering at the Oxford Saloon, his name is Henry. Okay. Now, who's Henry?

Hi, Henry. Yeah, who is Henry? Henry wasn't just another face in the crowd He was a police officer by day and a saloon bouncer by night Okay, for some reason Go ahead I was picturing Henry as like a boy, like a little kid No, the name is very childlike Especially when we're talking in like, in the early 1900s Yeah, you're like police officer and like, oh, okay, yeah, no, not a little kid, no.

No, no, no. I mean, unless you see him dressed as a cop as a child, but still. Yeah, no. No. But yeah, so he was a police officer by day and a saloon bouncer by night. And depending on who you ask, a man who, he was also a man who walked a fine line between protector and predator. Some say he took the job to keep the peace, breaking up fights before they turned deadly.

Others claim he had a habit of using his authority as a shield, roughing up patrons a little too eagerly and looking the other way when just the right amount of money crossed his palm. Mm-hmm. Now what is known is that one night a fight broke out at the saloon. And it was the kind of fight that just people turn tables into shields, bottles into weapons. It's one of those Wild West movie like fights type of thing. In the chaos, Henry was stabbed. Oh shit.

Yeah, okay. So some say that it was a targeted attack, and some say he waited for the perfect moment to settle a long line grudge. Someone was waiting for that. Others insist that it was just bad luck. Wrong place, wrong time. A victim of the very violence that he was supposed to stop. So, like I mentioned, he has been seen at the saloon because he did not find peace in death.

His presence lingers, most notable in the basement stairs, not even in the basement, just the basement stairs, where the air grows thick and the temperature drops. In addition to that, women in particular seem to catch his attention. Oh my god, he's a player. Yep, I mean, yeah, maybe. In the dim lights of the saloon. The ladies, man. Specifically, in the restrooms of the female patrons, they have reported feeling seen, watched.

Oh, he's a pervert. Yep, he's the other P, not a player. He's a pervert. Yep. He's the other P not a player. He's a pervert Some protective serve uphold the law And apparently More than that. Yeah The female patrons have also said that they have felt hands pin Pinching them. Oh

Yep, and when they would turn around, nothing would be there. That's gross. So once again, is it like a playful trick or is it more sinister? Because for all the bravado that he had in his life, he seems like reluctant in the afterlife. Yeah, a bit. He's been known to disappear the moment that someone acknowledges him directly. As if being confronted just shatters whatever control he still clings onto. Yeah. Other than that, whether he's a villain or a victim or something in between, we don't

know. Maybe he's not ready to face whatever happened. But definitely not a residual haunting, definitely a very intelligent haunting. Now, while the first floor and the basement have their fair share of paranormal happenings, the second floor is where it truly gets chilling. Mm-hmm. Um, because as we heard, that's where, you know, there was the high-end brothel. Yes. Which I'm intrigued about.

So the high-end brothel, not anymore, but during its time and nowadays, like the second floor, they are three distinct spirits that set to haunt the upper level. Okay. That's actually kind of a lot. Yeah, like yeah, especially like I'll show you a picture afterwards. It's kind of a small building. But the three ghosts are said to be a man with a bowler hat and two women. Okay. Now one of these spirits is believed to be Kathleen herself. Hmm.

Appearing as an older woman in a purple dress with matching bows. No one knows exactly what happened to Kathleen. Some say that she simply walked away, retiring into a quiet wealth once she made enough money. Others believe that she met a darker fate and that perhaps she crossed the wrong man, made one too many deals, you know, and she was erased from history as swiftly as she built her name. Mhm. So no one really knows what happened to Kathleen, but people assume that the purple lady,

the lady wearing purple is Kathleen. Got it. The other female presence, her name is Amelia. Now, Amelia wasn't a high class madame like Kathleen. She didn't call the shots, she didn't control who walked through the doors, she didn't have the luxury of power. She was one of Kathleen's girls. She was a young woman who was caught in a web of the saloon's second floor operations, where of course money bought silence and promises

meant nothing. So unlike some of the other women who worked there, Amelia hadn't come by choice. She was forced into prostitution. Her life was not her own. Now... It sucks. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Now the details of her story are a little murky. They're kind of just lost to time. But the way that her story ends has never been really in question. Everyone kind of agrees on how her life ended. One night, Amelia's body was found inside her small upstairs room. Locked away in a closet. Lifeless. Some say she took her own life, that the weight of the circumstances became too much to bear.

Others believe she was murdered, silenced by a man who saw her as nothing more than disposable. Either way, the truth remains buried with her, and people just agree that she died in her closet upstairs. But if that's where Amelia's story ended, we wouldn't be talking about it. Because to this day, her presence is the strongest. It's still there. Specifically, room number six. Ooh, okay.

That's usually how it goes, like, the most, like, troubled... Like, people who live the most challenged or troubled or traumatic lives, or the ones who, like, haunt the most, you know? Yeah, I mean, that's... Which makes sense. It does make sense, unfortunately. Now, like I said, her presence is the strongest, specifically in room number six. That's the space where she lived.

That was her room. That's where she died. People say that the air there carries like heavy sadness, like a quiet kind of like grief that makes the walls feel closer than they should be. Guests who have stayed in the room report waking up in the middle of night, feeling as if someone is watching them from the darkness. Other people say that they've heard soft, muffled crying when no one is around. And then there's the closet, the place where Amelia was found dead.

The door sometimes opens on its own. The knob rattles as if someone's inside desperately trying to get out. What is clear is that Amelia's spirit isn't vengeful. She doesn't lash out. She doesn't terrify those who cross her path. But there's just something just unsettling about her presence that makes even the skeptics pause for a minute or two. Maybe it was the sadness that she carried, like how energy lingers. It could be the echoes of a girl who never had a choice, who never got to escape.

Or maybe after all these years she's still waiting someone to like finally open the door and let her go Now with what I've told you Given its haunts It's haunted reputation It's no surprise that the Oxford Saloon has drawn paranormal investigators in more specifically the Washington State Ghost Society or WSGS for short. Yeah. They have conducted multiple investigations just uncovering chilling evidence that supports the claim of paranormal activity. There was an investigation. Have they uncovered?

Great question. I have that for you. Because like, evidence that, like chilling evidence, I need to know this know this right undisputable evidence. I know right So this investigation happened in 2005 That fun fact the current owners of the Oxford saloon purchased that in 2005 So I'm not sure if this investigation happened before they knew owners purchased it or after they purchased it. But in 2005, team members Sandy and Russ began to record on the second floor. Okay. As Sandy spoke, she instructed Russ to take pictures, and when they reviewed the tape, they heard an unfamiliar

unfamiliar male voice repeating her words back to her. Then in the background they caught the sound of a child laughing or crying. What's interesting is that there was no records of like children dying on property. Oh. That I could find, that I could hear of researching. So there was just random baby crying and nobody could explain it. Nope. Okay.

Some theories are that it could have been maybe one of Kathleen's girls who got pregnant and she had to have an abortion or miscarriage, but there's really no evidence of that. There is that evidence of the child in the tape. Yeah. But that wasn't the only time that the spirits of the Oxford made their presence known to the investigators, because they also experience objects moving on their own. Specifically, keys would fall out of locks before they could be turned. Almost as if someone was pushing the key out or like playing a trick on them or like you're

not coming in here. It's kind of silly actually. Yeah. Kind of funny. There was also an EVP session that they did in room number four, um, and that's where they capture a deep male voice declaring, and I quote, I am the one. What the fuck? Um, and as investigators left the second floor that night, they were followed by a voice

that hissed, you'll die. Oh shit. Of course. Have you listened to these? No, I'm trying to find them. I'm trying to find them. I'm sure they won't be that hard once I start like going. If you do find them, let me know,

because I own here. Yeah, yeah. And I'll put them on the website as well, so the listeners can... Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I'll send them your way as well. But of course, no haunted saloon would be complete without a basement full of dark energy. Of course! Because we've talked about the bar.

We've talked about the stairs to the basement. And the second floor. But not the basement. Not the basement. So the Oxford's lower level, the basement, it's no exception. There has been reports of shadow figures lurking, footsteps that echo without an owner, and an overwhelming sense of dread that makes itself known to people that go down there. One of the most famous pieces of evidence captured at the Oxford came from the basement

So there's a series of photographs that were taken by Russ the investigator, okay? in one of the ten pictures snapped At the bottom of the basement stairs a male figure appears to be standing back up at the camera Just like in full like view of the staircase? The next photo showed that the figure was turning looking directly at the lens. Oh shit. Now the photos were later examined by professionals and they did confirm that they had not been altered.

That's a start. Okay, do you have these pictures? I will send those pictures when I get to them. Hell yeah, I need to see them. Now, to this day, those pictures remain as one of the most compelling pieces of visual evidence collected at the Oxford Saloon. And the team ended their investigation. To end their investigation, they took a break. And one of the members stepped into the restroom.

But he wouldn't stay there for long, because as he handled his business, he suddenly heard a deep, disembodied voice whisper in his ear, get out. So I don't blame him for listening and just leaving. Yeah, I would do the same. Yeah. Now, there's a few videos out there, not too many of the Oxford saloon.

But there's some that I found on YouTube. And one of them they actually interviewed two of the workers. So, I have two stories from the workers. I think this man was a cook, or is a cook. And he said he started in 1998. And he said that his toddler was upstairs one day, and that he saw a lady in the bathroom, and that the kid saw blood in the bathtub.

Oh, shit. The cook thought that he was, that the person up there was just a tenant who was rinsing some of the paint buckets out because, um, the cook noticed that some days earlier there was some painting in the property. Yeah. But when the cook walked in there, his toddler said it was gone and there was a clean bathtub. It's almost like those stories that the kids tell you and you're like,

I don't believe that but it's creepy that- And it's not like, it's not like super creepy or like intimidating but it's just like, that's weird. I don't like that. Yes. They also interviewed a lady, I don't know if she was a bartender or a server, but she said that there's a lot more of a feminine energy upstairs. But, I will send you a picture, I don't know how it's saved, but I will send you a picture of this. They have a picture of a saloon girl, who they call Fannie Mae. And this picture doesn't stay on the wall.

So it has fallen, as if it flew. It slid. Eventually they screwed the picture to the wall, partially because the house gets loud on weekends when they have the parties and things like that. But one day the lady noticed that the screws had all been pulled out except for one. Oh, weird. Yeah. And apparently, there's also this doll that just kept being brought back to the saloon. The doll's name was Mary Elizabeth Brown.

And this goes back to when the Oxford was an antique store. Because, you know, it went through multiple different, like, uses. At some point it was an antique store. And it was said that someone brought the doll into the antique store and they didn't want cash for it. They just wanted to get rid of it. Nowadays, 2025, the Oxford Saloon is still open seven days a week And according to their website they have top-notch live music every night of the week. Oh, that's really nice. Yep, there is no coverage charge.

They are family-friendly, they are a family-friendly establishment and they have a great kids menu. Nice, I'm sure Henry would approve. Yeah. Henry the not-so-kid. kids menu Nice I'm sure Henry would approve Yeah, Henry the not so kid. Yeah, or you know the actual kid upstairs or the actual kid upstairs Yeah, now the current owners like I mentioned purchase the Oxford saloon in 2005 And I got to watch like this like four minute video of like the owner talking about the Oxford And I think it's kind of cool. They have three bars one in every floor Okay, so the top floor. It's a quieter quieter Area like a boudoir like a lounge like high-end cocktails and it's for people to have conversation

Yeah, and more like of a quiet intimate moment up there The main floor of course it's puzzling with family and music and then's the basement, which on weekends it's more of a club-like atmosphere. Now I have a quote from their website that says, The Oxford Saloon in Snohomish, Washington is a unique local gem that seamlessly blends the cozy, unpretentious vibe of a dive bar with the electrifying balance of a live band venue. On certain nights, patrons can revel in the laid-back atmosphere reminiscent of the classic dive bars, enjoying affordable drinks and engaging in casual conversations.

However, the true allure of Oxford Saloon lies in the renowned live music events, showcasing a diverse range of talents from intimate acoustic sets to high-energy rock performances. Add into its charm, the saloon is in- I love how they don't shy away from its history. Or the paranormal. It says, add into its charm the saloon's intriguing paranormal history, which infuses an extra layer of ambiance and excitement. For those eager to experience the best of both worlds, the Oxford Saloon offers memorable nights filled with music and a touch of the supernatural.

Check out the event events calendar or website. Blah, blah, blah. Their events calendar doesn't have a lot, but their Facebook page and Instagram is very, very active. Okay. Now, I checked out their Facebook because, like I said, it's very active.

And fun fact, for Halloween in 2024, just last year, they had 1,200 kids come through for candy. Wow. Between 2.45 and 5 p.m. That's a lot. So just in two hours and 15 minutes, like, 1,200 kids came. That's a lot.

Yeah. So, of course, like, people know of the Oxford Saloon in town and out of town and the area. And they also had a costume party on October 26. That's fun. Now, their website, I just thought it was cool. They had like the ultimate bar and grill beer guide. Which I could go into, but people can look it up. It just says, understanding beer basics, the types of beer, serving temperatures, glassware, beer selection tips, how to pair a beer with food,

um, it talks about beer with live music, and then, responsible drinking. Last but not least, it has tips for the best experience. Firstly, arrive early. Beat the rush and secure a prime spot for viewing and immersing yourself in the atmosphere. Secondly, engage with the band if the opportunity presents itself. Show your appreciation and energy. Musicians thrive on the crowd's vibe, so don't hold back from clapping, dancing, and cheering. Your enthusiasm not only fuels their performance, but also creates a vibrant, interactive atmosphere for everyone to enjoy.

Don't hesitate to strike up a conversation with the band during their breaks or after the show. They often love connecting with fans and sharing stories about their music. By engaging with the band, you'll not only enhance your own experience, but also contribute to making the night memorable for everyone involved. But to wrap up the story, if you ever find yourself at the Oxford Saloon sipping a drink, tapping your foot to the music, take a moment to glance towards the staircase. You might just catch a glimpse of Henry watching, waiting, so copy to in the world of the living and the dead. My god.

And that is the Oxford Saloon. Alright. Which I would love to visit one day. Yeah, I mean, thanks for bringing that up. Yeah. Pretty fun. It seems like a cool place. I mean, it seems... I'm not one really to go to bars, but I would go to the Oxford Saloon.

And not just because like, I mean, it's not, I wouldn't consider it like a bar. Like they have a full kitchen, like it's a full restaurant downstairs as well. They offer delivery and pickup as well Like I'm getting paid to advertise them. I'm not But yeah, that's the Oxford saloon, what do you think I Pretty cool. I mean, I'm not doesn't really seem all that creepy to me like maybe a little down now basement, but I'd visit. Yeah, it seems like one of those places where like...

It makes sense that things would happen. But also, I wouldn't be necessarily scared of going. Yeah, same here. Especially cause I don't like... I mean... Maybe because I'm a guy, but no one's gonna peep on the bathroom for the men. It seems to be just the women that suffered that, unfortunately. Male privilege.

Yeah. I'm gonna send you real quick the website for their thing, so you can just check it out when you get the chance. If I can figure out how. There we go. But yeah, that's the Oxford Saloon. Still open, family friendly, bring your kids. Sponsor us, because I am talking so much about this saloon. Yes, Jay is talking a lot,

so a sponsor would be really nice. I'll be your spokesperson. Sorry to be like all up in your ear right now. It's probably making you pretty uncomfortable. Listeners. Yeah, so... That's such a man thing for me to do. That was crazy. To get close to the microphone. Oxford Saloon, thanks for sharing.

Yeah. I just think that's microphone? I found Saloon. Thanks for sharing. I just think that's the thing podcasters do. If you think we're wrong, email us. Yeah, also I am calling you guys out because your new year resolution should be to email us. Yeah. To reach out. Engage with your favorite content creators more. Or like, it doesn't have to be your favorite. It could just be us. With content creators. With us.

Yeah, with us. It makes us happy. Cool. So, we got snipers. We got a saloon. And we've got a lot to talk about about those two. So yeah. It was a fun episode. I liked it.

It was. It was. I'm glad that we had... I mean, I was going to say interesting stories. I don't think we ever have not interesting stories. Yeah, there's always something good. Right. So. So thanks there's always something good. Right. So, thanks for tuning in folks. Catch us the next episode.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's it. Psst. Bye guys, thanks for listening. Pssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss You can also follow us on all of our socials at Chambers of the Occult and on Twitter at COTO Podcast. If you have any questions, comments, recommendations, personal anecdotes, or concerns, let us know. Fill out our contact form on our website, email us at chambersoftheoccult.gmail.com,

or leave us a message on our socials. We would love to hear from you. And if you enjoyed what you heard, we would greatly appreciate it if you could drop a like, leave a comment, and subscribe. It is absolutely the best way to show your support, and it would mean the world. Until next time. Thanks for watching!