Chambers of the Occult - EP# 36: Under the Big Top and Under the Bed: Grady Stiles the Lobster Boy Pt. 1 & The Tallman Family Haunting

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Send us a textThis week on Chambers of the Occult, we unravel two stories soaked in terror, one beneath the dazzling glow of carnival lights, and the other behind a child's bedroom door.J takes us deep into the twisted origin of Grady Stiles Jr., better known as Lobster Boy. From his 1937 birth in Pittsburgh to a family legacy steeped in ectrodactyly, abuse, and sideshow fame, Part One of this true crime chronicle is a haunting look at a boy raised for the stage but forged by violence. Behind the freak show smiles and applause was a child hardened by pain, destined to become both a performer and a predator. You’ll hear how his legacy began, not with murder but with manipulation, trauma, and a growing thirst for control.Then Kai pulls back the covers on the Tallman Family Haunting, a terrifying 1980s case from Wisconsin where a secondhand bunk bed became the centerpiece of a supernatural nightmare. With glowing red eyes, disembodied voices, and shadowy figures creeping through the walls. As the terror escalated, the Tallman's did the unthinkable, fled their home, leaving everything behind. Because when evil moves in… sometimes the only way to survive is to run. One tale begins under the big top.Another ends under the bed.And both will leave you questioning how close terror really sleeps.

On a warm summer evening in 1937, still town of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, a baby's first cries echoed through the modest walls of a working-class home. The midwife held her breath as she unwrapped the newborn, only to freeze at the sight before her. The baby's fingers and toes were fused. What? Each limb and the, and hard contorted shapes,

claw-like appendages, the unmistakable mark of a rare condition. But there were no screams, no gasps, no cries or confusion or fear. Instead, the mother reached out to cradle her son, brushing a gentle kiss across the brow. Her eyes met the man beside her, and he with his hands just like the baby leaned in

and softly touched the child's face. In this family, there was no tragedy, it was a legacy. And so began the life of Grady Styles Jr. A baby born with claws destined for the carnival stage and applause, only to face a feature soaked in violence and blood. This is the story of Lobster Boy. Chambers of the occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. No. No, that's such a terrible name! It sounds a little familiar, but like not familiar whatsoever at the same time. Like meaty claws and then like circus or whatever like kind of sounds familiar ish maybe

but okay not not really so did you ever watch American Horror Story I only watch the first season maybe the first two seasons okay there's one season where they I think make a reference to like a freak show and then they have I think In one of those seasons like a lobster boy or like a row. Okay. Okay that makes sense. I Think that's at least we're like in pop culture. They have mentioned him at least yeah At least that's where they've mentioned him But with that out of the way, let's get started. Yeah, sounds good.

That was a good intro. Hell yeah. I'm glad you liked it. So let's talk about Gritty Styles. First. Yeah. We should introduce ourselves thank you hi I'm Kai and I am Jay welcome back to chambers of the occult we've been doing

this for 51 episodes and we introduce herself yeah I guess we've just gotten so like used to it now like we don't even need to introduce ourselves Like you guys are just like here with us and you know, we know who we are. We're all homies now. Yeah Yeah, I mean sometimes I forget who I am but You should see a doctor for that For what? You should see a doctor for forgetting Yeah, yeah, yeah

Maybe a specialist even Yeah, but it'll start in the fifth grade. Oh Was there like a falling down the stairs getting hit in the back of your head Something like that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I fell out of a plane.

Anyway, yeah, you want to continue? Yeah, yeah, sure. Yeah, that's a story for another time. Cool. That's Kai's backstory. Now let's get into Grady's backstory. So Grady Stiles Jr., Grady Franklin Stiles Jr., or better known as Lobster Boy, in 1937 with a rare condition called Ectrodactyly. His hands and feet were fused in a claw-like formation,

and that would later draw thousands of curious eyes to carnival tents and sideshow banners. But the Stiles family, and the Stiles family, this wasn't a tragedy, it was tradition. And I'm gonna be sending you a picture so you can see what he looked like. Okay. Feel free to take a look at him. At this point, I'm probably gonna be putting a picture here on the video as well. If you're watching on YouTube, you can take a look at him. At this point, I'm probably going to be putting a picture here on the video as well. If you're watching on YouTube, you can take a look. Okay. Yeah. He really does have lobster claws. Yeah. And his feet as well. And Grady wasn't the first in his bloodline to be born this

way. Ectrodactyly had been passed down through generations of the styles, dating as far back as the 1840s. So it was pretty much their family legacy and pretty much their livelihood. His father, Grady Sr., also had the condition and instead of hiding it, he leaned into the grotesque fascination that it sparked, and he made a living in the carnival circuit. And Grady Jr. was expected to do the same. So, from the time that he could sit upright, Grady was being trained, not for school, but for the stage. But for the stage to perform.

Yep. Just at seven years old, he was officially billed as Lobster Boy, and he joined the family act. He would sit beneath the circus stripes, waving his deformed hands, and coins were clinked into the till. And all lookers gawked, some petered him, others laughed, and some people just stared at him.

To them, he was just a spectacle, but to his family, he was an asset. His family, Grady Sr., pushed him hard, both as a business partner and as a son. And they worked together as part of the lobster family. The lobster family. The lobster family. So now I'm going to be sending you a picture. I'll put it up here as well so that listeners can see it. Of... where is it? Of pretty much the... how they would advertise him. Yeah.

Like the big banner that would say, -"Lobster Boy." -"Lobster Boy." Yeah. Claude hands and feet alive. Yes. As opposed to dead. Okay. And as you can imagine, Grady couldn't walk.

His legs were so malformed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had to drag himself across across trailer floors with his arms. So in an effort to build a kind of strength, raw upper body muscle, it was a means to survive. His world was filled with cramped trailers, dusty fairgrounds, relentless cycles of travel. There was no classrooms, no neighborhood friends, no safety nets. And the Stiles family lived in motions, like constantly moving from one place to another. Got it.

But there was also whispers of abuse. Of Greatest Father being a hard man. Of trauma being passed down like a stage prop. Grady was raised in a space where pain was quiet, vulnerability was punished, and your body, no matter how different, it was expected to earn its keep. Yeah.

And charm wasn't just encouraged, it was required. And charm, Grady had plenty of it. Even as a child, Grady knew how to flash a smile, deliver a joke, and win a crowd. But it was all armor, carefully stitched together with every ticket sold. As a boy, Grady was applauded by strangers. He was a living oddity to say the least. But behind the makeup and the marketing, he was leaning, he was learning something much darker. He learned that love could be conditional, that attention could be cruel, and that applause

couldn't protect you. As he entered his teenage years, the little boy in the booth began to disappear. In his teenage years, the spotlight grew brighter, but so did the shadows behind him. Because he wasn't just a sideshow act, he was the act. Lobster Boy. He became the star attraction of the Stiles family. He drew in curious crowds across the county, his face was plastered on posters like I showed you. And beneath the fame, something inside Grady began to change. The once charming boy who learned to win over crowds with a smile was learning to use something

else, and that was control. Makes sense. Because years of dragging himself across dirt and trailed floors had built his upper body into solid muscle. Oh shit, yeah I didn't even think of that. Mmhmm. Okay. So while other teens were discovering themselves in classrooms and back seats,

Grady was navigating the world that rewarded toughness and punished weakness. So while he couldn't walk, he could pull his body with frightening speeds. And more importantly- That's scary as fuck! Yes, he could pull his body with frightening speeds. And more importantly- That's scary as fuck! Yes, he could also hit hard. Seeing him zoom, like, across the- People started to notice. I was- like, I was doing all this research and I was like,

yeah, that's scary. And his strength became more than survival. It became leverage. Because by the time that most kids were asking girls to dances and like stressing about grades, Grady was confronting a very different kind of reality. Because he didn't attend school, he didn't have friends his age, the carnival was his home. His school was pretty much a battleground. And it was teaching him that manipulation got results, that threats got compliance, and that fear could be a tool.

Not good. In addition to that, Grady started drinking young. Oh, God. Alcohol flowed freely in that community. The boundaries were blurry, and supervision was minimal. For many in the carnival world, boost was just another coping mechanism. And for Grady, it was a match to dry grass. His temper flared quicker and his mouth turned meaner. And his need for control, sharper. Some said it was pressure, the constant need for travel, the weight of being both the breadwinner

and the freak. Others said that the cruelty was always there, just waiting on the surface. But by the time that he was 17, he was already an alcoholic. Fuck dude. And at home things weren't any calmer. Grady Sr. was no longer the star of the show. And Grady Jr. was well aware of it. There was power struggles between the family.

Grady Jr. wasn't shy about challenging his father. He would argue and push back. He would raise his voice. He was no longer the boy that followed orders. He was the one calling the shots. And though he lacked the formal education, Grady Jr. was clever on his own. He had a sharp wit and he was able to read people. He knew how to manipulate emotions, play a crowd, and twist conversations to his advantage. And this is all going to come around. Yeah, I bet. He had charisma that drew cheers and audiences, and that he would later use to deflect blame and dodge consequences. His teenage years were marked with intense and internal war between the boy who had

never been, who had never known kindness and the man he was becoming, and his family meanwhile remained deeply entrenched in the carnival lifestyle. Now, carnival culture didn't help either. It was a world where the rules were loose, secrets were common, and consequences were rarely immediate. Now Grady learned how to read people, how to get under their skin, and how to make them flinch. He could charm you, or he could humiliate you, and he was proud of that. But now the boy in the booth had grown into something harder. Still a performer, still lobster boy, but beneath the costume, beneath that persona, he was angry, restless and dangerous. And soon

he would bring that danger into someone else's life. Someone who would fall for the smile before she ever saw the cloths. So before Grady ever laid eyes on his future wife, let's talk about Mary Teresa Herzog. Mary had already endured a lifetime worth of pain. She was born on April 23, 1938, in a small, cold town in Vermont. Winters were unforgiving, but not as harsh as the childhood that she grew up with. Teresa had early memories that were colored by trauma. Most of it was taking place behind the walls of her own home. Her parents, Gene and Harvey, divorced when she was just six years old. And after this split, Teresa's mother remarried to a man named Frank.

But this was a new figure in her life, and it didn't bring any new stability. He brought something far darker. Because back then, incest wasn't spoken about. It wasn't confronted. It was hidden, whispered, and buried in shame. At this point, Teresa was just powerless, a little girl, and she became the target of her stepfather's sexual abuse. That's how it always like... That's how it always like...

So many fathers would sexually abuse their kids. Why does it feel like it was so commonplace back then? It's so insane. Yeah. And as much as I hate to say this, it seems like it's very common. But yeah, she had no one to protect her, and she just bore it silently. Now in the darkness of all this, there was a flicker of escape for Teresa. And that was the Carnival. Mmm, yeah. Lots of fun, you know, you could go out, just enjoy the shows that you would watch. Yep. Makes sense.

Yep, makes sense. Whether the traveling show rolled into town, lighting up the dark Vermont sky with its vibrant colors, Teresa found herself entranced. The carnival fascinated me, she would later say. It was just so enticing. At 18 years old, desperate to leave behind her family and the small town, Teresa packed her things and she joined the carnival. Wow. Okay.

So she actually took off and joined the carnival. Yep. That makes sense. Yeah. You know, I don't blame her. She wanted to get away. I don't blame her either. That was her like escape.

You know, it was her way to... She wanted out. She wanted to get away. I don't blame her either. That was her like escape. You know, it was her way to She wanted out she found a way out. Yeah Now she started off small selling tickets working booths But soon she began to make a name for herself. Oh sick. Yep She had the kind of beauty that stopped people in their tracks. Saw features, striking eyes, and a shy smile that hinted at hidden strength. So, in time, she fell in love with someone named Jerry Plummer, who worked at the bulldozers that moved the carnival gear from one town to the next. Mmm, okay.

And they got married. Okay. Unfortunately, the cycle of abuse followed her. This guy? Oh my god, okay. Because Jerry would beat her, punch her in fits of rage. Once he broke her teeth and another time he shoved her a, he shoved a coffee pot against her skin. And when Teresa- What? Yep. He shoved a coffee pot against her skin and when Teresa became pregnant,

he kicked her down the stairs and when he was done, he simply left. Like... Like left for good or like he left the house? He just left for good. Like go drink or something. Wow. So he just like... So he beat her. And just left. Okay.

And she was a survivor. She filed for divorce. Good. Good for her. survivor. She filed for divorce. Good. Good for her. Yep. She filed for divorce. She started over and she found work elsewhere wherever she could. And then one faithful day in Trenton, New Jersey in 1959, she would cross paths with a rising star in a sideshow, a young man who liked her, who had grown up under the carnival lights.

Grady Styles Jr. Grady Styles Jr., the lobster boy. Better known as Lobster Boy, yep. And like we talked about this earlier, Grady was charming, confident, and he was already infamous in the freakshow circus. And he saw something... So like... Go ahead. So she knew him and she was like, oh my god, it's Grady.

Yeah. And it was cool. Basically. And he saw something in Teresa. You know, a kindred spirit maybe. A woman who had suffered and survived. You know, just like him. Yeah. So he began to court her with the same intensity that he performed with. Lavishing her with gifts, attention, promises.

But meanwhile, Teresa was carving out her own legend. Because remember how I said that she started off with Ticket... with Ticket Seller? Yeah. So she had gone from Ticket Seller to the Blade Box Girl. Oh, okay. Yep, which is where she would slip into a coffin

of swords for gasping crowds. Oh, okay. That's kind of cool, crowds. Oh, okay. That's kind of cool, actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah. She was like, I'm done with tickets. I was like, how do I become an act? And then she didn't stop there.

Of course, she became the electrified girl. That doesn't sound good. She was she would sit in a chair designed like an execution device. Yeah, like an electric chair. Yep. With currents dancing across her body. Kind of like a death-defying illusion. Was it like actual electricity being pumped like at all? I'm not sure.

It's like it's it was described as a death to find illusions. So I think it was just an illusion. Just an illusion. Like it looked like the electrical was like. Yeah, very much like the blade box. So I think it was much more of like illusions. Gotcha. But once again, she wasn't just like a carnival girl.

At this point, she was a star. Jack of all trades per se, you know? But Grady was still, you know, wanted to court her so he persisted and slowly she let her guard down, you know? She said okay, he's still trying to like win me over so they began to live together They live together? Mm-hmm They start building a life not just under the striped tent But behind the scenes too where at least for a while there was laughter companionship and hope of something better For a while. Yeah, but not forever.

But even as they built a home together, the dark shadows still lingered because there was Grady's drinking, his temper. Oh, because he, yes, still an alcoholic, he still was working through things. Yep. And Mary Theresa, the whore things. Yep. And married Theresa. The horror she had once fled in her youth, that horror was creeping back in again. Right back up to her. Now offstage, Theresa thought she found something real.

Grady had a rough edge, sure, but he was kind, attentive, even tender when he wanted to be. He wooed her with confidence and charm. He made her laugh, she showed her affection, and for the first time in a long time, Teresa felt seen. Wanted. Even loved. Grady was such a charming man, she would later recall. Everyone enjoyed being in his company, she said. And Grady, he loved attention. He loved the control. Of course, that was what he built his whole thing on. Yep.

Teresa wasn't just a partner. She was a price. A beautiful woman who made him feel powerful, respected, and whole. Now they worked the World of Mirth Carnival together, touring the country. So they never really stayed in one place for too long. Gotcha. So they were always moving because they were still like carnival people. So ever the fast learner, she, you know, like I said, she went from selling tickets to the Blade Box

girl to the Electrified girl. Yep. And so she ascended And... And so she essentially... So she started working with Grady in a way. And so was she kind of like his assistant? Or like did she have her own act type of thing? They didn't really perform together. Grady was his own one man act, just pretty much a spectacle of his own. She was having her own ex, the plain fox girl.

But they were still at the same carnival. Yes, they were traveling together. They just had their separate ex. Yeah, they were part of the same carnival and they would travel together, maybe in different parts of the carnival, but they would move together Got it But unfortunately, like I said because they lived together they traveled together when he would drink he would

Unfortunately beat her up Yep, and she still stayed even as the bruises would start to fade she stayed even as it's what she knew you know like her previous husband her dad growing up you know like she only knew abuse yep even as a drinking worsen she stayed and... came the children. They had kids? Of course they had kids, duh. Why wouldn't they?

So... Grady and Teresa's first child together was a baby girl named Margaret. Okay. But their joy was short-lived because- Why? Margaret would only die after 26 days. Damn. The cause of the death was pneumonia. Okay, I was gonna ask, yeah.

Pneumonia, that makes sense, unfortunately, yeah. Yeah, unfortunately. I mean, they're on the move constantly. They don't really have the stability. Their second child, David, was born soon after. But heartbreak came again because David died after just 21 days. Dude, pneumonia as well? I'm not sure why he passed away. I couldn't find that. Okay. It probably was.

It was due to the living conditions, though. It was just drafty living conditions. Could have well been pneumonia. Yeah. But at this point, it was two infants. It was hard for her. But they carried on and it would be in 1963 that they had a third child Donna Marie Donna Marie, okay, and finally some relief

Donna was a healthy baby born without Etrodextile Nice No deformity, no gloss, no twisted fate per se But that meant that she wasn't carrying on the family legacy though For Grady, it sparked resentment. Yep. Yeah, I saw that coming. Yep. Donna's normalcy Grady's drinking worsened.

Oh my god. He would vanish on Benders, then he would return home drunk and violent, and Theresa would do what she could to protect her daughter. Because when she would hear Grady's chair scraping on the trailer floor, she would whisper to Donna, -"Go to your room. Be quiet. Don't disturb your father." -"Hide, yeah." -"Yeah." And even when Grady seemed to clean up, the tension never truly left.

During a brief stretch of semi-sobriety, Teresa noticed him coming home, trying harder. But then the darkness always lingered just below the surface. Now, in 1969, six years after Donna Marie was born, they had another child. Oh, so they had a fourth. Yep, Catherine, later had a fourth. Yep.

Catherine. Later known as Cathy. Cathy. And Cathy was just like her father. Oh, she... okay. Yep. She was born with ectrodactyly. Lobster claws. And also stunted legs that ended just below the knees.

So for Teresa, the curse had returned. But when Grady looked at Cathy, he saw himself. And in some twisted way, he was proud. Teresa, she was devastated, another child born into a life she feared that she could never escape. And so the children of Grady Stiles Jr. were a mix of tragedy and legacy. Some carried the condition, but they all carried the scars.

Yeah, I mean, lots of like, generational trauma and like, abuse and whatnot just all mingled in together and I'm sure that would not it was not going to create a good environment for these kids whatsoever. I mean she stayed with you know she fell in love with this man she quickly realized oh he's charming and then she realized oh he's just like my ex-husband. But it's not the only thing I've ever had. But now she can't get out. She has two kids. She has two kids. And the weight of staying with him would only grow heavier. Yeah. Because Grady's temper didn't just simmer, it exploded. And when it did, it was brutal. There was nights where Teresa would sit in silence. She would dread the sound of the trailer door swinging open, because she knew what came

next. She learned to read the rhythm of his drinking. The slurred words that came from him, the sharp silence, like the roar of his fury. Once in front of the children, he hurled a whiskey bottle across the room because dinner was late. Dude, what the fuck? And that bottle shattered near Teresa's feet, slicing into her ankles. He called her lazy, stupid, said that she was lucky.

He kept her around at all. said that she was lucky, he kept her around at all. Another time, in a fit of rage, he dragged her by the hair down to a narrow hallway of the trailer and slammed her, slammed the bedroom door behind them, like away from the kids, but of course not out of earshot. Yeah. And the next morning, Teresa's arms were covered in bruises In addition to that her eyes were swollen shut Fuck dude. He beat the shit out of her. Mm-hmm

But Teresa still went to work like no way Teresa still went to work. Like nothing had happened. No way. Because that was the life that she had. She had to perform outside. I mean yeah, but like how could she even like move? Like she would have been so bruised and sore and swollen and like... She couldn't stay inside.

Because it would have just gotten worse. I guess so, yeah. And the children weren't spared. Grady demanded absolute obedience from his kids. And when he didn't get it, he made sure that they feared him. He would curse at them for being too loud, for not answering fast enough, for simply existing when he was hungover. If they left a toy out, he would scream. If they spilled a drink, he would hit the table so hard that it rattled the plates. He would lash out with his claws swinging his heavy twisted arms with shocking

force. And one of the most chilling moments came when their daughter Cathy, who had also inherited the claw-like deformity, asked him a simple question about her condition. And he barked at her, And he barked at her, You're just like me. So you'll learn to be tough, or you'll be crushed. There was no comfort, no fatherly tenderness, just bitter and rage.

My god. You're gonna be crushed. It sounds like he's threatening to crush her literally with his own claw. Like, I don't know. I'm just thinking of that. Uh, Teresa would often say, uh, shield the children as best as she could. She would tell them, go to your room and don't disturb your father, because it's the only way she knew how to keep them safe.

Yeah. By hiding them. By keeping them quiet by... Because everything they did would just upset him. Yep. Because drinking and... She would absorb damage herself. Do you know... Do you know if the claws like...

If they can close them? Like as a lobster? I believe he could. I believe he could. There was one time where I think Teresa... Like he got very mad at Teresa. And he... I mean you saw the picture that I sent you. Yeah. He pretty much grabbed Teresa and like put his claws

like by her neck. Put his claws. And like pretty much threatened her. And she talked about that moment how like she was scared for her life. But he was of, like I said, pure muscle from, like, his arms. She once confided in a friend even that the beatings were so bad that sometimes she couldn't get out of bed in the morning.

But that she had to pull herself together enough to smile for the crowds, because in the carnival the show has to go on. The show has to go on, you have to perform. Yeah. But off stage, it was only a matter of time before they actually crushed it down. Now by the late 1970s, the bruises were no longer just Teresa's.

They were emotional welts that had spread across the entire family. Grady wasn't just cruel behind doors anymore. He was unraveling. The children were growing up witnessing everything. Mm-hmm. Oh shit, he was. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Donna was old enough to understand the look in her mother's eyes when Grady reached for a bottle. Mm. And Kathy had started to hide when his voice got loud. And they had another kid. They had a fifth? Glenn. Glenn also shared his father's condition. Dude.

And Glenn had also become, you know, sort of a pride for Grady. Of course, it was his son who was just like him, and he He's gonna be great just like him. Mm-hmm and I'm gonna send you a picture of them as well now because there is a family picture of all three of them and in this picture you look at them and you're like, oh like Nothing wrong with this picture. They look happy. But of course it's for show. Oh Yeah look happy but of course it's for show. Oh yeah. My God, yeah, I mean you can. They actually don't look all that like traumatized in this picture.

No, because once again, once we step out of the trailer. This is a show. There is a crowd. The show must go on. Yeah. The show must go on. And Glenn had become both the target of... He was pretty much pride. He had become both pride and pressure because Grady expected him to carry on the lobster legacy.

He was more of Grady's property rather than his son. That's gross. Oh yeah. Yeah. And when his, like I said, he drank, he once beat Theresa so badly that she collapsed. Another time, he slammed Glenn against the wall for talking back. And he would threaten to kill Teresa in front of the children. No fucking way. Oh, yes.

Sometimes while polishing his pistol in the kitchen. OK, that's scary as fuck, because like. He can actually do it right there then. Oh, yeah. I have two quotes. Go ahead. How would he shoot a pistol? He can't get his finger in there. He doesn't have a finger It's just a big claw. Maybe it was it was special type of gun Yeah, or he was he came up with something, you know Who knows I? Anyway, yeah, I have two quotes that he did say though two quotes Yeah, or he was, he came up with something, you know? Yeah, who knows. I forgot the word.

Yeah, I have two quotes that he did say though. Two quotes. Two quotes from Grady. From Grady. I'll kill you and no one will be, no one will believe you, he'd say. And then the second quote he said is, What jury's gonna convict a man with no legs? He's kinda got a point.

Unfortunately. So, it was more than abuse, it was psychological warfare. Yeah, it was. And then came the breaking point. One night, after another brutal beating, Teresa was staring at her reflection. Her face was swollen, her arms shaking, and she looked at her children. Terrified, silent, huddled. And she realized this wasn't about her anymore.

Please tell me she kills him. Hahahaha I love where your brain went. I love where your brain went. Please. Please. Go ahead. Okay. She realized Grady's violence was leaking into the children's futures.

She realized... if she didn't leave now, they would just grow up with trauma. Yeah. So she waited. And she killed him. Well, she waited until Grady passed out drunk. Then with shaking hands, and the quiet urgency of a woman who had done this in her mind hundreds of times before,

she packed and left. She packed every- I'm gonna kill you! Like what? That's so- Ahhhh. Come on. Yeah, she packed what she could. Well, I mean, like, I was, you know, I was setting up the scene and you're like, she killed him, she killed him, she killed him. No, I know, know I know it was perfect Yeah, I'm with me and all the listeners

Well, I mean pretty much I was setting up to like get somewhere, but she packed what she could and then you know She grabbed her kill her kids told them to be quiet Kathy clutched her doll Donna watched Donna help carry bags, they got in the car, and they left. They left in the dead of night. Wow. And when Grady woke up, he exploded. Oh, of course he would. But like, what the fuck is he gonna do now? He can't hurt them, they're gone.

So what did he do? Well, first off, he was punching through the walls, with his deformed hands until they bled. He cursed Teresa's name, he cursed the kids, he cursed the world. Okay, yeah, makes sense. But then what stung the most wasn't the betrayal, it was the loss of control. His price was gone. His audience had left the tent. The most wasn't the betrayal, it was the loss of control. His price was gone.

His audience had left the tent. And when he realized that they weren't coming back, His spun a story of his own. Nooooo. What did he say? He told the neighbors that Teresa was unstable. She ran off with the kids. Because she couldn't handle the carny life. He played the grieving husband, the abandoned father.

He would sit in the midway in his wheelchair, swinging the whiskey bottle, and charming strangers with his half-truths. This asshole, this dickhead, holy shit. Oh yeah. And Grady could not stand being alone. He hated being alone. And within a few months, he was courting another woman. Of course he was, why wouldn't he?

Yep, a worker named Barbara Browning, who had performed in the very same circus Teresa had once worked. And Barbara kills him. I love how you're wanting like Barbara or Teresa, someone to kill him. I want him to die. I want him to die. You're like, Jay, you're covering a true crime story. Who kills him?

Yeah, where's the death, you know, in this? When's it gonna happen? Well, anyway, Barbara worked at the same circus carnival. Yes. And Barbara had a child of her own. Oh, okay. And Grady was always eager to assert his dominance. He quickly positioned himself as the new head of the household.

Yep. And as for Theresa, like I said, she packed what he could, took her children, she fled to a motel, and she needed some time, she needed safety, and she needed someone that could help. That someone that could help came in the form of Harry Glenn Newman Jr. Better known in the carnival world as midget man sorry i shouldn't laugh at them no you're fine and i will be sending you a picture of him okay let's see it we got lobster boy and we got midget man oh shit okay this picture kind of goes hard. Not gonna lie.

Yeah. He was a wielder by trade, and he was a carnival worker as well. Now, Glenn was one of... Midget Man, Harry Glenn, he was one of Grady's friends until he wasn't. Because he had seen too much. He had also a soft spot for Teresa. And when he heard what he had done, he was terrified and he helped by stepping in. So Midget Man or Harry Glenn, he stepped in, he picked her up, and he took her and her children in. He got them off the road into a better life,

and Teresa finally had someone who treated her with respect. Someone who listened and someone who didn't throw punches when he was angry. Okay. But Grady wasn't finished with her. Because without warning, and without so much as a phone call, Grady Stiles filed for divorce. From Barbara? Or from...

From Teresa. Teresa wasn't informed. Until the paperwork was already in motion. Ohhhhkay. By then it was too late. Because Grady made sure that the court proceedings went on without her, he didn't want a fair fight. How? What? You can't just have one half of the party not there and then go through with it. What?

Oh, this was a different time, Kai. That was a different time, right? He wanted her gone legally erased and it worked because with no opposition in the court Grady was granted full custody of the children No, that's insane. Oh, yeah. Holy shit like doesn't he doesn't even alert her she has no clue this is happening. And since she has no clue, she can't go to court to defend herself. And they're like, well, we gotta give the kids to Grady.

She gets the papers that say you are divorced from this man and this kids belong to him. He has full custody. Wow. Not just that, by the time that Teresa found out, Grady had already sold the family's house, taken the money, and moved into a new trailer. He refused to let her collect her things, jewelry, dresses, photos, even the fur coat she once treasured, gone.

Some of that stuff was given away to his new wife, Barbara. Of course! And the kids? They were gonna stay with him whether they wanted to or not. This fucking asshole. Yep. So, at first, it might have looked like a new start, because Grady had custody of the children from his marriage with Teresa,

and he now had Barbara by his side. So, Grady started to rebuild what looked like a, quote-unquote, new family. But behind doors, nothing had changed. In fact, things only got worse. Yep He drank constantly. Yeah, sometimes before noon sometimes never stopping And when he beat Teresa Teresa

What he would be Teresa it would be often in places where she could hide her bruises, you know, her arms, her legs. But with Barbara, he didn't bother with secrecy. He didn't bother to hide the secret, like her bruises. He didn't care who saw. If she had swollen lips or bruises creeping along her arms, she was still expected to step outside and smile to the public. Wow. Expected to walk like everything was normal. And it wasn't. And unfortunately, everyone in the circle knew exactly what was going on.

But they couldn't do anything about it, right? Nope. Because the carnival might have been a place for the strange and the misunderstood, but even among the performers and the workers who had seen it all and Grady's cruelty stood out, no one did anything. Barbara's injuries became routine. So routine that they stopped being shocking. She would show up with a black eye and say little. Sometimes she wouldn't say anything at all. Grady would brush it off or she would he would sometimes laugh about it making cruel jokes at her expense. He relished that power. The fear, the fact that no one dared to step in. And then Barbara was pregnant.

Oh, fuck. Yeah. Fuck. Sorry for that noise. No, you're good. I'm watching your ears. And things got worse. Yeah, of course they did. Because now there's another kid in this one, you know another one that he can abuse and resent and whatnot and There was one moment in Barbara's pregnancy

where Grady with his claw-like hands Struck her in the stomach. she was still carrying his child. Dude. Did he not want this kid? Well the baby survived, but the trauma lingered with Barbara. And on July 26, 1976, she gave birth to Grady Stiles III, a child born like his father, with luster claws and short legs. Yep.

Okay. The cycle continued with, you know, the cycle continued emotionally violent and genetically as well. Unfortunately, just like before, Grady was proud. Not of the child, but of himself. Seeing himself in the kid. Because he still had control, yes. Yeah, yeah. This wasn't just a broken home, it was a war zone.

With Barbara caught in the middle. And a new baby just added to the list of innocent casualties. Barbara caught in the middle, and a new baby just added to the list of innocent casualties. At this point, were his other kids also living with him then? Yep. Everyone was living with a new trigger. Wow. Because he legally had to be with all of them. So that's five kids total then now.

Yep. His three kids. His three biological kids. And then Barbara's one. Barbara's one. And now the new baby. Yep, Grady the third. Grady the third.

Yeah. Yeah, of course, of course. And while Grady settled into his new life with Barbara, he drank heavier, abuse and louder, but Teresa never stopped trying to see her children. Grady made sure that Teresa had no legal access to her children. He like I said, manipulated the system to get what he wanted, power, and he was quick to use his kids as pawns, holding them hostage emotionally and

physically. When Teresa would try to see them, Grady would slam the door on their face more than one occasion. She tried calling on the phone, only for Grady to snarl threats on the phone. I'll kill you and your new man, he once said. If you ever, if I ever see you near my kids again, I'll bury you both. So, once again, just threads to like her and like her husband and the kids.

And then Donna said, she never stopped asking about us. She never gave up. Donna said, she never stopped asking about us. She never gave up. That's sweet though, knowing that her mom just always kept fighting. Yeah, I mean, she actually ran away with her kids. She wanted a better life with them,

and then before she knew, they were gone again. I wonder how they even got the kids, like if it was the police that like tracked them down and took the kids into custody or something like that. At some point I'm sure someone had to figure that out, yeah. Yeah. Now, unfortunately there was also more violent confrontations because one Christmas, Teresa wanted to take the children to

Vermont and against Glenn's better judgment, her new husband, they made the trip and paid the price because Grady lured her back into his apartment under the guise of spending time with the kids. And pretty much what happened was a lie. He invited her in, he waited for her to settle in, and then without warning, he reached under the couch cushion and he pulled out a revolver and pointed it at Teresa and Glenn. Fuck. Fuck. He said, go fix yourself a cup of coffee, he told Teresa.

And then he turned the gun on Glenn. No! Teresa didn't know what was happening, only that she had to play along. So she begged, she stayed, she just watched him wave the revolver and scream threats. And then just to drive his message home, he beat her again. I mean, of course, it's like expected at this point. Yeah. Unfortunately.

And then later he would beat her again while she was pregnant with another child. Glenn's child. Another? Not Grady's. Got it. Yeah. And she remembered Grady's claw slamming into her stomach. Yeah.

And she couldn't do anything but beg him to stop and he didn't, not until he felt like it. Also one day, ugh, Grady brought a carnival friend, the 600-pound fat man, to help him intimidate Teresa. So it was Grady and the 600 pound Paul fat fat man and he pointed a load of shotgun at her while Grady beat her. Holy shit. Okay. So there's this giant ass man pointing a shotgun at you while this lobster man is beating you.

While you're getting beat. Yeah. And as he was beating you, he was like, don't bother me anymore or next time I'll kill you, Glenn and your son. And this weren't idle threats. This was Grady's idea of quote-unquote love, his version of fatherhood. God, such a fucking twisted...

Oh yeah. Now, let's talk a little bit about one of his children, Donna. The one that was born without... The first daughter, yeah, the one without... Because by 1978, 15-year-old Donna had seen enough. She was the only child born without the lobster hands and legs. She had grown up under constant threat of her father and as she got older the beatings became more frequent, you know, the verbal abuse got more intense and, you know, Grady brutalized her. At times, he beat her so badly that with his claws, his hands,

just left bruises in her arms and legs. And Donna wanted to escape. Not just the beatings, but the cycle. The chaos, the fear. And she wanted something that would resemble a normal life. Yeah, of course. School, friends, freedom. And then she met Jack Lyne Jr.

Who is this guy? Oh. Jack was a handsome man, a handsome 18-year-old. I don't like where this is going already. They met through Donna's cousin at there and their connection was immediate. Donna was still in high school. She was a freshman at

Alhenny Junior High School in Pittsburgh. But with Jack, she felt a spark and he treated her with kindness, made her feel seen. and for once she wasn't just someone's daughter. Daughter or sideshow sidekick, she was herself, just Donna. And in early September of that year, Donna made her move.

She ran away from home. Nice. Good for you, Donna. She met Jack in a local public park and not far from the apartment, she ran away with Jack to live with Jack and his family. Jack brought her to stay with his sister, Jenny, in Pittsburgh. And for a few days, Donna experienced what life could be outside of her father's shadow. No shouting, no bruises, just laughter, sunlight, and safety. But Grady wasn't going to let her go so easily. So a few days later, Donna mustered the courage to call her father.

And as you can imagine, the conversation was predictably explosive. It went something pretty much of like, where the fuck are you? Dad, listen. No, you listen. You get ba- You get right back here now or else. Donna said, no.

Alright, alright, Gritty said, I'll let you go with your mom. You come here, I'll call your mom and you can go with your mom. You're lying. You won't even let us talk to her and you expect me to believe you let me go live with her? Listen, you fucking... And Donna hung up the phone. Good! Good for her! Fuck yeah! And then three or four days later, she called again. And then Grady picked up the phone and he said, I got detectives looking for you.

They'll find you. And when I find that boy with you, I'm going to kill him. And Donna hung up the phone. I love how this was a moment of Donna being in control. Yeah, like she's calling him and then hanging up on him. Yes, it's like, no, I'm in control at this point. Yeah. Of course, she was terrified, but she had a plan.

So she called Grady again This time she knew what to say was something calculated, and she said dad listen Jack and I want to get married I'm pregnant Shit Now she's 15. Yeah, I was gonna ask she She's still like 14, 15 at this point, right? But this wasn't true. Oh, okay.

Donna was still a virgin. But she knew her father. We get pissed at that. If he believed Jack had stolen her innocence, he might be inclined to let her go. Oh. So when Grady heard that, he might be inclined to let her go. Oh. So when Grady heard that,

he said, since you've already slept with him, I'll sign the papers. But there was a catch. Donna was a minor, so she needed greatest permission. Yeah. His actual signature on marriage documents. So with heavy reluctance, she returned to the apartment. No, girl.

Brady did sign the papers, but not without a last chance to manipulate her. He tried to change her mind, made promises, but Donna stood firm. Good. And on September 20th, 1978, she and Jack went to the clerk office and applied for a marriage license. They planned to wed in just a few days. That's cute.

So Donna, despite being so young, believed that... Kind of. Yeah, yeah. Cause she was 15 and he was like 19. 18. 18, yeah. It's still weird because technically he's legal and she's not.

Yeah, but I mean, different times, whatever, right? And then also, like, I mean, I guess if he actually did treat her well, then, like, it's the best that she had ever known. So, like, you can't blame her for that. And it seems that, you know, like, maybe his sister was on board because, like, technically, his family got to meet her and they were maybe, like, supportive of it. I guess so. Also, three years is not, like, technically his family got to meet her and they were maybe, like, supportive of it. I guess so.

Also, three years is not, like, a big gap, but that was a big gap because that's a big gap. I mean, 15 to 18 is a big gap. That is a big gap. But anyway, she saw that as a way for her independence, even if it was marrying Jack. She believed that it would help her keep safe. So, now let's go to the day before the wedding.

Because that afternoon, Donna and Jack were... Donna, Jack and Grady's second wife, Barbara, and Grady the third went shopping for potato chips to feed the guests at the reception. So, while the others were out, Grady called Donna into the house. And Grady was drunk as usual. And he told Donna, he said, look, I don't really think you should marry him. And she said, Daddy, we've been over this. And he was like, you know, I love you so much.

I paid an investigator $100 upfront to find you. Then I owed him another $200. And he wasn't lying to be tender, he was just trying to reassess power. Donna just stayed calm, she had gotten used to enduring his drunken rants. And later that evening, the group returned from shopping. Jack, Donna, and Barbara noticed that Grady's wheelchair was missing from the front porch where it was normally kept and that was unusual. Yeah. So that's when they asked, hey like where did it go? And

Grady just replied it was sitting there. He was like, oh Pittsburgh streets, people steal things. Yeah, that's valid, honestly. They didn't really buy it. So Donna, Jack, and Barbara, even Grady the Third, they went out to look for it. And they were about halfway around the apartment complex when Donna and Barbara stopped. And they heard something. And they were like, what do you think that was? Donna asked.

And they're like, don't worry about it. It's not your father, Barbara replied. And then came the bang. Shit. Jack stumbled out of the house holding his chest. He shot me, he gasped, before he collapsed on the ground right in front of Donna. Holy shit. Panic exploded and Donna began screaming running for help.

The bullet had torn through Jack's chest. Ugh. Why did you do this? Donna cried. Because I told you I would. Grady replied. You'll die for this son of a bitch. And she kills him! So, Jack... You better was just 18 years old when he was taken to the hospital.

And inside the apartment, Grady was calm. Disturbingly calm. He was found sitting in a stuffed chair at the far end of the living room, the same place he had hid in his wheelchair earlier that day. On the nightstand next to him was a.32 caliber H&R 6-shot revolver. A revolver he had purchased 16 days earlier. So it was bought like specifically for this. When the officers arrived,

he didn't try to run. He didn't- Oh, he just accepted it. Anything. Instead as the officers- Instead as Officer Carlson confiscated the gun and emptied off the remaining shells, Grady calmly said, Take me in.

I'm ready. Take me. But what stunned the officers wasn't the murder. It was the fact that Grady acted like he had just taken out the trash. Not like he had just tried to end a young man's life right in front of his daughter. And after being taken into custody and having his rights read, he was transported with a special van equipped with like a hydraulic lift to accommodate for his wheelchair to the Pittsburgh Department of Public Safety. And at 11 23 p.m. Detective Joe and Ray began their investigation.

They sat down in a chair in the homicide office and they handed him a Miranda form. Grady read it line by line, signed without hesitation. Do you understand your rights? I understand. Mm-hmm. Are you willing to talk with to us without a lawyer present? Oh Are you willing to answer your questions without a lawyer present? Yeah, and then he said some of them and He answered like this like it was casual chit chat. And what followed was one of the most chilling, detached, and manipulative confessions that the detectives had ever encountered. What? Because Grady painted himself as the victim.

Okay, okay. He's still trying to? Oh yeah. Okay, he literally told them to take him in. He told them that he suffered from emphysema, cirrhosis, and ailments. He mentioned that two of his five children had lobster-claw syndrome, and his income at the time was solely from social security. He told them he used the wheelchair only when out of the house and at home he said, I have to crawl around.

He emphasized his eighth grade education and his concerns for his kid's future. Whomp, whomp. He noted, Mr. Stiles, why don't you tell us how it all happened? And Grady launched into a rehearsed tale of betrayal, control, and vengeance. He said how his daughter Donna, just 15, had run away with Jack, who he called a bad influence. He admitted hiring a private investigator to find her. I paid him $200. And when Donna returned, he said she convinced him to sign marriage papers by lying.

She said she was pregnant. I finally gave in and said I'd signed the papers. But she'd been gone six days already. Then came the day of the shooting. Grady explained that Donna, Jack, Barbara, his second wife, and Grady, and his son Grady the third, went out to buy food for the wedding. He stayed at home, he drank a lot. About 12 doubleheaders of whiskey, he told them.

He claimed he heard Jack was bragging about living with my daughter, and it enraged him. He still didn't confront them at the time. Instead, he waited. And when they returned that night, Grady was in his chair. He'd hit a revolver in the cushion. He admitted that Jack had gone looking for the missing wheelchair. And when he came back, Grady confronted him in the living room. for the missing wheelchair, and when he came back, Grady confronted him in the living room.

I told him, I told him, you have her, don't laugh and make a mockery of this. And Jack reported he smirked and said, I told you I'd get her. Dude. That's when Grady claimed that he snapped. I pulled the gun from the side of the cushion and I shot two times at Lane.

They gave me no choice. He acted as though he was forced into it. As though that taking the life was something done to him, not by him. This fucking dude. And when they asked if the front door had been open when he fired the shot because a bullet went through it, Greti paused and said, Now that's a good question. He smirked and he wouldn't answer any more questions.

And that's when the interview ended. Now, when Jack was rushed to the hospital after being shot, it wasn't clear whether he would survive. The bullet had torn through his chest, grazing through vital organs, and embedding itself near its spine. Despite the emergency efforts of the surgeons, Jack was pronounced dead on arrival. This was now officially a homicide. A murder, yeah.

And Grady Stiles Jr., the so-called lobster boy, was no longer just carnival curiosity, he was a murder waiting trial. And that is part one of The Lobster Boy. Holy shit, wait, there's a cliffhanger? Yes! Ha ha ha! Clap, clap, clap, clap. Applaud, I applaud you. I don't know if you could hear that, but I was clapping. Yes. Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes!

Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! There is so much more. Okay. Good. Wow. Um, because I want to hear all of this.

I want to hear all of this. He didn't end up fucking dying. That's the worst part of this story. Wow. Thoughts? Comments? Concerns? I know you're angry about him not dying.

Yes, I'm really fucking angry about him not dying. Someone died, but not who you expected. No, like the most innocent dude had to die. Yes. And not this fucking asshole. Thoughts. Do not date men if you have the choice not to. Those are my thoughts.

That's okay. No, uh, wow. It's so crazy how like he kills Jack and he's like, just take me to the police. But then he gets in and now he has this whole story made up He knows what he was gonna. Do you know he's? Talking all this telling all these lies about what actually happened Once again he He played it off as I am the victim he has charmed his way

From a child and the spotlight his entire life. He has charmed his way from a child in the spotlight his entire life. He knows how to do this. He does. And I mean, there's also the thing of like, yes, he was in the spotlight. He was this kid that everybody saw grew up. So of course they're gonna wanna feel bad for him

or they think he's good or whatnot and they're gonna wanna be on his side. Yeah. Shit. But there's so much that could go into it, right? Like, you know, there's Barbara, there's Theresa, and like, is there gonna be testimony there? Like, what about the kids?

Are they gonna say anything? Yeah. I don't know. The midget man. There's a whole carnival involved. Midget man, there's a whole carnival. So, I'm excited. Listeners, I hope you guys are excited for this part, too.

This is the first two-parter story we've done. Oh, yeah. Is it not? Yes, it is. All right. Well, I guess going into the second half of like almost a hundred episodes means second half of a story. I don't know.

Hey, yeah. This is... This is... I don't know. Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy y yeah this is this is this is I don't hundred. Mm-hmm, and it's our first split episode Yeah, okay. Wow. Okay. Well, I'm excited Yeah, so next week listeners come back for that other half. I'm gonna try so hard not to Forget research. Oh, please don't yeah I won't I won't I try not to I I will tie your hands down and be like no I'm gonna grow lobster claws. I won't I won't I try not to I will tie your hands down and be like no I'm gonna grow lobster claws. I won't be able to type you won't be able to type in anything Literally, you're gonna be like hey, sir. That was good. I'm glad you liked it. There's so much into in this story like I

Thought it was gonna be like a simple like journey from point a to point B No, the more that I kept going the more There's so much Details because there was so many interviews conducted There's so many interviews from the children from the first wife from the second wife Yeah, so Yeah, I'm excited. Nice, dude. Cool.

I think this is a good one to do like a two-parter. Oh, definitely. Definitely. So, Kai. What do you have for us? Alright. Let me take a sip of water. Yeah. Stay hydrated.

Because... After that story, how can you not stay hydrated? Very true. I don't know if that made sense. I'm talking nonsense. Old news nonsense. Check it out. Yeah. All right.

So when a family moves into a new home new home right there's always like that adjustment period Where you're figuring out? You know where you can hang things up on the walls where the furniture is gonna go Where the floors are creaky? How the breeze comes into the windows? The unfamiliar shadows that you see around? Sometimes. Are you talking from personal experience?

Well, I guess I'm talking from the experience of moving into the Winchester Mystery House. I guess I was working there. Unfamiliar shadows. And then you like take a look to the side and it's like, oh, it's just a person. Oh yeah. Anyway, you know, sometimes it just seems like the house maybe has a life of its own. At first it's just the little things, you know, misplaced set of keys, baby monitor, picking up some strange whispers, you know, nothing out of the ordinary Okay, the the radio station flip flipping on the radio and no one's here yet

But then it escalates the children fall sick for no reason Doors open in the middle of the night shadows shadows move where there should not be any movement. The Tullman family thought they were dealing with a haunted house. They were. That was the logical conclusion. The house was the problem. The house was to blame.

Was it not? But what if it wasn't the house? Was it? Hold on, hold on. What if? Say it. What if it was something inside it? By the time the Tommen family realized the truth, it was too late. The Tommen family realized the truth. It was too late

Because the thing that was haunting them wasn't the house at all It was the bunk beds What? Man You heard me Not where I thought this was going Perfect Perfect That was the goal Right? Like I did Yeah I was like

I knew you were going to say something I knew you were going to say something That was the goal, right? Like I did. Yeah. I was like, I knew you were gonna say something. Yeah. Did not expect bunk beds. That was nowhere like on my top 10 list, like top 10 of things. I thought you were gonna say it was like what if it's the family itself? Oh, okay, that's actually a good one. Yeah, but then I was like, okay cool, like the family it's what's haunted not the house.

But then I was like you said baby monitor and I'm like, oh, it's like maybe it's like an item that they're carrying around like a souvenir. Maybe they brought like something that they shouldn't have brought from somewhere a gift You know, yeah haunted item. Apparently it's the beds. Mm-hmm is it the Beds beds or is it the mattresses? I'm sure you like the whole like bunk bed set. Okay, but anyway, yeah, so All right It was like the whole bunk bed set. But anyway, yeah, so... Alright.

First off, I feel bad for those kids. Yeah. Tell me the story of this haunted bunk beds. Yeah. So this story begins on April 13th, 1986. Okay. In Horicon, Wisconsin. Well, the Tallman family, as I mentioned. So the Tallman family consists of 32-year-old father,

Alan Tallman, his 30-year-old wife, Deborah, or Debbie, as I'll probably be referring to her as. So Alan and Debbie were the parents of two children, seven year old Danny and one year old Mary Ann. So Alan and Debbie were pretty normal, run of the mill people. They were regular church goers involved in their church there in Wisconsin. Okay.

Alan, he worked at a local manufacturing plant. Debbie, she was a housewife. But after moving into a new home on South Larabee Street in Horicon, Wisconsin on April 13th, 1986. 13. Things would get a lot more fucked up for them. That's one way to put it. Yes it is. So it was this house, Larabee Street.

Now, within weeks of moving into this house, it already seemed like something was off. Now, the kids, Danny, Mary Ann, um, they were pretty lively kids. You know, they didn't get sick very often. But within weeks of moving into this house, what? I was going to raise my hand and I realized I could just say it. I was going to be like, did you say the kids age or did I just not pick up on that? Danny seven years old and Marianne was one year old. Okay. So did you say it before now or I did say it?

Yeah, okay. I said it briefly though. Okay And then Debbie the mom she also was pregnant at the time as well Okay, so another child expects on this episode. Yeah So within weeks the Talman children began to experience frequent illnesses. Marianne was hospitalized twice. And Alan, the father, also became sick. Was she hospitalized during her pregnancy? No, Marianne's the one-year-old.

Oh, okay. Debbie's the mom. Yeah. So they weren't, they were like, okay, well, it's, it's an old house. Maybe it's the building materials, you know, they suspected the, exactly asbestos lead, whatnot. But they brought in some people to test and there were actually no toxic substances found whatsoever by these building inspectors.

Okay. Now, very quickly as well, their pet cat started acting crazy. She would run into the walls, climbing on them, getting stuck, and just really pretty much causing a ruckus. Is there a name for the cat? Uh, no, no name that I could find. Okay. But they rehomed this cat because they couldn't deal with it anymore.

Uh... Can we name her? Sure, what are you thinking? Um... Tracy. Okay, that works. Okay. Yeah.

And then, I mean, it's not like we'll talk about her anymore, but... No, yeah. Okay, that works. Okay. Yeah. And then, I mean, it's not like we'll talk about her anymore, but... No, yeah. Goodbye, Tracy. And then later also, Danny, the seven-year-old, and his babysitter, they witnessed a kitchen chair just start to move on its own Like just shake or actually move? Um, I think just sort of scoot like a little bit over, you know, like you think it might be moving you look back Not really sure. Okay, like you think yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah now in

late 1986 around November That's when Debbie gives birth to their second daughter Sarah. So now they have three kids Does she have middle name because so far like they all have two names No Just Danny Mary Ann and Sarah. Yeah. Oh, that's right. Danny doesn't have like two names. Never mind Mary Ann and Sarah. Yeah.

Oh, that's right. Danny doesn't have like two names. Never mind. No. So, to help with this, Debbie's mom, her sister, came to the house to help. However, they both couldn't wait to leave, because they said that the house felt suffocating. There were negative feelings about this place.

And around that same time as well, Alan, the father's personality, started to change. He became short-tempered, easily irritated, especially at night. He would engage in way too many arguments with Debbie, and even one night he went on a huge drinking binge threatened to leave the family. Oh my god. So his behavior just started to change and it went on like this for the rest of that year, 1986. You know this family was having problems, there was negative feelings in this house but there wasn't anything they could pinpoint it on.

There was still no thoughts. They were denying, of course, that anything was wrong about this place because there was no haunted history. There was no past, nothing that would point to it being a haunted place. They did like their due diligence when it came to like the research. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Nothing wrong with like the house, structurally... Huh.

No. So, it's getting later that year. Sarah, the daughter, she's grown up by a few months now. Because now we're in February of 1987, the next year. Okay. So, daughter's maybe about three months now, Sarah is, and they need some more space, you know, for the kids to sleep.

So, they go to a secondhand furniture shop, and they find a pretty great deal on a bunk bed. I thought they already had it. Not yet. Which is, yeah. Okay, carry on. So they initially they store this bunk bed in the basement, no worries, but eventually they move it into Danny's old bedroom so that

Marianne and Sarah could now share that room and then Danny moves to the next bedroom over. So Danny also got an old like clock radio that his parents had. And so that night, the first night that he moves into the room, apparently the radio took a life of its own. It started to move stations back and forth without any touch. So Danny, being a seven-year-old kid, runs out to his parents telling them what happens. They dismiss him as a child with his imagination

running free, they send him as a child with his imagination running free, they send him back to bed. But apparently, the style continues to move, the radio stations keep switching. And is that something that like happens even when the kid's not present? I guess there's no way for us to know right because nobody's in there. Okay, but Not sure But from that point on Danny

Had trouble sleeping He would refuse to go to bed in fear kicking and screaming he could barely sleep He would say that he would hear somebody walk across the carpet, bang on the walls. He would see a suitcase moving on its own. Under his bed sliding across, he would hear strange noises at night. In the next room over, Maryann starts having nightmares. She hears voices in her room Voices that shushed her She heard no goals Yeah

No, so these kids they would live in the little shushes me in the middle of the night in my room. I'm out me in the middle of the night in my room, I'm out. Yeah, I'd probably be like, no, I'd be like, who the fuck are you talking to? Like, this is my bedroom. Like, what? And then I'd probably run out of there. OK, I was going to be like, you have a lot more balls than I do. Yeah, only for a little bit. So at this point, parents are a little bit more alarmed.

Alan, he starts to sleep in the room with his kids occasionally. Um, but, and then eventually they start hearing almost the sound of Marianne talking to someone in her room. Is it one of those cases where there's a reply? I'm not sure. There's not too much detail. It seems like there was just some sort of talk in a way. OK. Now, a few months go by. We're once again back in sort of the fall of 1987.

So they've been living in this house for maybe about a year and a half now or so. And one day, Debbie hears the garage door open and just closed by itself. And now she, from this point on, starts to get nightmares as well, even the mom. Her nightmares become vivid and more vivid. In some nightmares, in one nightmare, intruders came up from the basement of their house and shot the entire family. That's not... No. She had nightmares of her kids being kidnapped, drowned in the river, and she felt that she was going insane. But she pretty much kept these to herself.

No, I would not be able to keep those to myself. I don't know. I don't know. I would go like crazy and like nail shut that basement door. Yeah. And I probably would think that they would have especially nailed shut the basement door when another evening in late September, sorry, one morning in September, Alan, the father, he actually went down to the basement and he found that one of the basement windows was taken out and

propped up on the wall Like somebody had gotten into the basement. Oh No, nothing was taken They just nothing was taken and also in order to get back out of the basement There would have been needed to be a chair or something to get back out of the basement there would have been needed to be a chair or something to step on top of. Climb back up. There was absolutely nothing there. Which means logically like if you're thinking of it logically they're still in the house. Exactly. You're covering paranormal, Kai.

Just saying. Hey, sometimes real life is scarier than the paranormal. Oh yeah, I definitely agree with that. Most of the time. But you're exactly right. They became paranoid. Starting to feel like they were being watched in this house, refusing to go down to the basement by themselves. The dogs in the neighborhood would bark at their house, seemingly for no reason. There was just an uneasy feeling every time they entered in this house. Like something was waiting for them in the garage, you know, watching their movements.

There's a quote by Alan, because he did some interviews later on, that when he closed the garage door, he felt like he was, quote, shutting himself in a tomb. That's such a weird way to describe it though, because a tomb is like suffocating. Mm. It's, yeah, wow. So it's late October now. Alan gets a really bad sinus infection, so he goes to the hospital. Debbie's mom comes over to help take care of the kids once again

Terrible feeling she wants to leave But she sets the kids to bed She herself the mother the grandmother Sleeps in a living room on the couch when in the middle of the night She's woken to see a pair of glowing red eyes staring at her through the window. Mm-mm. Mm-mm.

Wait. Is this a two-story house or a one-story house? One-story home. Okay, cool. I still don't like it. Me neither. Um, cool. I still don't like it. Me neither. Um, yeah. Also, I don't know why or how... If it makes sense, listeners, feel free to chime in. I don't sleep with like, my windows open.

Like if I was to wake up in the middle of the night and there's someone outside my window, I wouldn't be able to see. I have blinds and curtains. Like anytime people say that and they scribe that, I'm like, why, first of all, why is your like window open? Like, yeah of all, why is your window open? Yeah, why do you leave your window open as you sleep? That's... Yeah.

Anyway, that was a little side tangent, but yeah. No, you're good. But yeah, she wakes up in the middle of the night. She sees these eyes staring at her. And this isn't, and from here on out, things kind of get worse because this was not the end of it, right? It's late November now and Marianne, the youngest, or Marianne, she tells her mom that she sees a fire in her room, that somebody was watching her in this room. Something was hiding behind her door and waiting until the lights went out to attack her.

I was gonna ask that. I was gonna say, so far, everything has been visual. Like, does it escalate and turn into like physical encounters and things? It does. It does. And I'll talk about it in just a second. Yeah. Now you mentioned, you asked if there was sort of conversation that happened with Marianne, you know, hearing, talking to that person. Yeah. Oh, apparently one night Mary Ann, or after,

after Mary Ann has heard sort of giggling and talking to somebody in her room, she joins her parents into their bed to stay with them and says, it's coming, it's here. says, it's coming, it's here. But when her parents asked who it was, apparently she became really upset and she was mad that her parents couldn't see who she was talking to. Was it because it was already there? Who knows? But they thought it was like, you know, a childhood friend story made up, something like that.

Like a visible friend. Yeah. Exactly. Imaginary friend. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, an imaginary friend, you know, a figure that was maybe in their rooms. figure would eventually come to be described as a four foot tall, hideous old woman with long black hair standing by the doorway. That's something that Dani saw. And that's the same

person that Marianne said she would see as well. No way. Danny said she would glow like fire and remember the bits of fire that have already been sort of talked about? Mentioned before. Yeah. Wait was this also the one hiding behind the door? Probably. Yeah that's likely who she was talking about. So Allen and Debbie are now convinced

this house is haunted, finally. So they seek help from their pastor, Reverend Wayne Debratz from their local church. He comes, he blesses the house, he almost exercises the demons out and just prays for them. He advises the family to pray, to keep attending church. But this doesn't solve anything. Of course. There was still the feeling of that evil presence,

and the Talmans claimed they never even had a single moment of peace. Oh, that was a good question. You know, doors were still banging, garage doors opening up, strange voices. Yeah, I was going to ask if like things calm down for like a day or two, but it doesn't sound like it did. No, no. So at this point, it's December. It's about the week before Christmas. And Danny, the boy, he starts sleeping on the couch in the living room. He can't even set foot in his room anymore. And he sees that lady again, standing by their

Christmas tree. He shouts, he asked her what she wants, but she doesn't answer. But apparently, Danny saw this woman, this lady three times times that night, and each time she got bigger. Like bigger as in like taller? I guess so, yeah, bigger. Yeah. I don't like that. Now, you're right, you wouldn't like this, the parents don't like this either. Alan hates this.

I mean, first of all, like in general, I don't like that she's there in the first place, but I also don't like that she can change her height. Me too, she's like shape-shifting and she like gets bigger and I don't know. I was like if you can shape-shift can you like turn small so it can like kick you out of the house like Yeah, can you make her like tiny so that I can like crush her or something I don't know yeah Stand by the door and kick you yeah. Yeah, it's Christmas Day Alan has had enough

Wait, how long has it been at this point? Has had enough. Wait, how long has it been at this point? Um, so it's... Because this is what, the second Christmas you mentioned? No, it's first Christmas. So this is Christmas 1987. Okay. Um, so they've been here for over a year and a half now. Almost two years-ish.

Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. Alan's at his breaking point, so he challenges whatever this is. He yells, whatever is in this, in our house, would you please leave my children alone? And if you want to fight, fight with me. No. Mm-mm.

Mm-mm. Mm-mm. This is where... First of all, don't say please, and second of all, don't ask to challenge, don't challenge it. Mm-hmm. So this is where it seems like it's less of visions and more of actual things sort of imposing themselves as it goes. They started the night that happened next. Alan was met with nightmares with visions of a tornado heading for the house, completely destroying his family, ripping the home apart.

The next two weeks later, in January of the next year, Alan would be coming home at about 2 a.m. after a shift from work. And he heard sort of a howling sound, a gust of wind sort of wrapping around the house coming from the direction of the garage The wind got louder and then apparently a voice from the wind it said come here So, what does he do no he runs to the side of the house where he thinks the voice came from No. He runs to the side of the house where he thinks the voice came from. No one was there. So he looks around, he goes back to the front door going inside.

Once again, he hears, come here. And he looks over at the garage. He sees flames engulfing the garage. And then he sees green eyes, as they're described, with blood red pupils staring through the windows from that garage. He runs inside to check if everything's out, realizes his garage is on fire, goes to check, and there's nothing there.

Holy fuck. Yeah, cause, ah! What? You know that there's something in your house that changes shape that is on fire, but at the same time, you wanna make sure that your house is actually not on fire. Yeah. So of course you're going to run in there.

But, sorry, like this is like a whole movie scene. Because like now you're running there, I was like, oh shit. Now that thing got you where it wanted you to be. Yes. What's next? Yes. Sorry. Well, you ask what's next.

Two days later, January 9th, Alan falls asleep on the floor of his daughter's room. Mary Ann and Sarah. Aw, she probably couldn't sleep. They couldn't sleep. They were traumatized. So he was in there. Oh. She probably couldn't sleep. They couldn't sleep. They were traumatized. So he was in there. But while Alan was on the floor, he heard that same howling sound.

From all around him. He looked around him, and he started to see a fog coming up from the floor engulfing him. It turned into a human-like figure, a woman with red eyes. This is the first time there's been a fog. Yeah. This figure raised its arm, pointed at him, and said, You're dead. And disappeared.

I don't know if that's a threat or a statement. Probably a little bit of both, right? But I mean, I guess he would be dead if it was like a statement yeah once again because like technically he's like like I don't know like if I was sleeping and I thought it was like a dream I'm like oh no like am I actually dead yeah but like if it's like a threat yeah well thankfully they realize that they can't stay because the last encounter they have happens again two days later. It's January 11th at this point. Alan is working late, so he asks his younger brother, Jonathan, to come over, watch Mary

Anne and Sarah until they fall asleep. But it's late that night, Jonathan hears one of the daughters say, Hi, almost as if talking to somebody here in this house, Jonathan turns and he sees that figure, the glowing red eyes and it says, now you're involved. And goes away. They scream. Jonathan's screaming. He calls for his mom Debbie, but everybody is so traumatized. They don't even know what's happening there. Danny, the younger son. He's clearly not scared to make itself known. Danny says, it's there, I can see it.

Marianne says that she can see it too. It was in the bedroom, they say it's still in the house with them. And Debbie, fed up, says we can't do this anymore, we're leaving. They get to their car, they pull out of the driveway. Danny yells, Mom, it's looking out the window at us. They didn't turn to look back. They refused to go back to this house. You know, they garnered support. There was an investigation into what happened. The local police chief actually

met with the family and tried to offer them support, you know, try to figure out what happened. But nothing. Of course, they couldn't do anything. The Tallman family, they'd never returned back to that house. And they had the bunk beds, which they believe were the cause of it all, destroyed, buried in a landfill, and the Tallman house went up for sale. Why do they think it's the bunk beds? Ha ha ha. Because it was...

So the theory was, there was like just little bits of sicknesses before the bunk beds. It wasn't anything like too crazy. But as soon as they got these bunk beds and the kids were sleeping in them, they felt sick. There was these huge things that were happening. And I don't know the exact details of it but sort of Alan and the Reverend who came to bless the house they sort of had a suspicion that the bunk beds were contributing to what this haunting was. So it's more of like when they got sick and you know things were weird before the bunk

beds that was just mere coincidence. Mm-hmm. And then when they got the bunk beds, that was because of the bunk beds. Yeah. Huh. So, did they ever return the bunk beds back to the basement when they figured that it was the bunk beds? No, they just destroyed them. They just destroyed them.

They just destroyed them. Okay. And buried them. Weird question. I don't know if you know this answer. Do you know what type of wood they were made of? I have no clue. No, that's fine. Listeners, if you happen to know, or if you find it, let us know what type of wood they were made of.

I'm just curious. This is just for my personal, like, I just want to know or if you find it and let us know what type of what they were made of. I'm just curious. This is just for my personal, like, I just want to know. It really does not contribute anything to the story. I just want to know. Yeah. Now, there was a lot of media coverage over this because small town Wisconsin, yeah, and it eventually made its way to Unsolved Mysteries. It had its own whole episode on it. So it gained a huge amount of popularity.

And at this point, people started to become skeptical of what their experiences even were because there was no reason to not believe them before, but now, well, they were getting money out of this, right? They were profiting, who knows what actually could have happened. Oh, were they actually making a profit afterwards? Yeah, I mean, they got paid some money

from being in this episode. And also, from everything that I've read, all different articles, there's always different little bits of what happened or how a story played out. So this is what I followed that I sort of took the most. Apparently this last encounter that really drove them out on January 11th of seeing that is just one version of it. Another version says that one night, Alan was woken up by the sound of chanting

and saw the bunk beds engulfed in flames. Oh. But they weren't flames. He tried to put them out, but they weren't acting like normal flames They produce no heat whatsoever. Yeah, that's the other one's very very banished Everyone sees fire. Mm-hmm, but it's never hot And like there's never any like scorched marks or anything. It's all just like in their heads. Yeah visual something like that. Yeah, okay So really

We're not sure and I think that's where a lot of the the bunk bed thing happens is the story of seeing the bunk bed specifically catching on fire Now one theory that I actually I haven't really seen anywhere, yeah Um, now one theory that I actually haven't really seen anywhere. Yeah. But one theory that I'm kind of thinking about is like, what if they all had carbon monoxide poisoning? Because carbon monoxide detectors weren't really like a thing, you know? Like, you know, the detectors we all have in our house that beep annoyingly when the batteries are down.

Cause I've read stories before of people like on Reddit or around where like, there will be weird stuff that they can't explain happening in their house. They'll like have like hallucinations and visions even. And they're like, this moved over here, this was written down. That's actually a really good point, but... What about the incident when they were outside of the house and they heard the voice, and then they saw fire in the garage?

That's true. Because that's a very good theory, but then I was thinking of that incident there it also was 2 a.m. After a long shift when that happened fair so very well. He could have been sleep-deprived There could have been the bits of that like carbon monoxide I don't know how carbon monoxide works in detail, but maybe me neither, but like it causes like memory loss like hallucinations and paranoia in a way so like it very well could have contributed to this. And because they were exposed for it for like prolonged periods of time maybe it could have left some long lasting effects. So who knows. What is

weird though it's like if it was carbon monoxide like poison, like let's say that. What are the chances that it's like a shared hallucination? Like is that a possibility? That's true. I mean, but there also was like the bias of them just like, like they describe a little bit and so everybody else sort of sees that thing. Yeah. So who knows? That's the other thing I thought because maybe one person saw it and they mentioned it, then the next person sees it. And it's just, yeah. That also makes sense. I mean, this was never debunked to this day. You know, nothing came of it. It's still unsolved, still not sure. The owners who purchased it after,

no paranormal activity was ever, you know, ever happened, ever reported. So it seems like it was just the bunk beds in the house. I mean, I'm sure that they have their carbon monoxide monitors now. Yeah. Their alarms. I don't know this um

this case wasn't like It didn't have as many like crazy moments that I wanted But honestly it was worth it just for being like it wasn't the house. It was the bunk. It was the bunk beds Oh, yeah, though the way I was not expecting, you definitely got a good reaction out of me for that. So 100% worth it. Awesome. Well, but you got a really good reaction from the listeners too. Yeah.

Oh, I'm sure you will. Alright. Let us know. Send us a text message. Let us know because I actually really love this. Yeah. Well, that is the Tallman house. The Tallman bunk bed haunting.

Uh-huh. So, um... Was there ever like a picture of the bunk beds? That they look like... Okay, so were they just like typical looking bunk beds? Were they like antique or anything like that? It's like simple, like just simple wood. So nothing special out of it?

Nothing special. I'll send you the pictures in a second, so... Yeah, like simple wood. So nothing special out of them? Nothing special. I'll send you the pictures in a second, so... Yeah, like no rush. I'm just curious of like why they were technically... I mean, they were from a secondhand store. So... Yeah. Like, who knows?

Maybe they came from... a place that was haunted before. Not sure. Yeah, maybe, you know, whoever chopped down the tree, chopped it down from like, sacred land or something. Yeah. Yeah, so many theories out there. I mean, once again, they're all theories.

Yeah. Keyword theory. Well, let us know what you guys think. Listenin' in. Is there a movie based on this story? I don't think so. Okay. Because I imagine it'd be kind of hard to make a horror movie about bunk beds.

No, I mean, they did, um, for like the Unsolved Mysteries, like, episode, they recreated lots of the scenes from it. Like, they went back into the house and did, like, recreations of, like, Okay. Did they use the actual house? They used the actual house. Okay. Nice. So, the family did step foot back into the house once after they left and it was to record

the show. Okay. Did they say anything of like how they felt back in the house? I think they said that they felt sort of that same, like, uneasy feeling, but there was no activity or anything that happened. Okay. Nice. Well, thank you. And... that is all, right? Yeah. That should be it. Well, thanks for listening to Episode 51.

Yeah. Thank you for sticking around for 51 episodes, everyone. Or if you're new new that's awesome as well Yeah This is definitely a great place to start. I mean pick out some of your favorites from our previous episodes But you definitely do not need to watch them all yeah, we definitely should do like a like a what I call it like a Like if you if you want to get started like hey this hey, this is our top picks, like, listen to this one.

Oh yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, recommendations to get started with or something like that. Or like, if you like this type of true crime, watch these. If you like this type of paranormal, watch these. Yeah, like, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, for sure.

Let us know some genres. Or let us know some of your favorite episodes that we've done, listeners. Actually, that would be nice, yeah. Let us know some of your favorite episodes. We can put those together and really see if those are good ones to start off. Because they probably are. And please, please, please write in. Send us a message.

We need you guys, please. Anywhere you listen, Spotify, Apple Podcast, there is a little thing on the description that says, send a text. Is that what it says? Yeah, and we'll get like an actual text from you guys. So we can be pretty responsive. We will not be able to reply. It says send us a text. We will not get your phone number.

No. It will just open your text messaging thing. It's through like email account type of thing, yeah. Send us a thing, we'll get it. It's like fan mail basically. And we'll be able to put that fan mail on our website. So it's like, yeah. So.

All right. Anyway, that's all. Until next time. See you guys. Smurf! Ah! Thanks for listening to Chambers of the Occult. For photos, sources, and anything else mentioned during the episode, check out our website

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