Chambers of the Occult - EP# 43 Karen Silkwood: The Plutonium Whistleblower Cover-Up

Episode Date: March 31, 2026

Send us Fan MailWhat really happened to Karen Silkwood and was her death truly an accident?In this episode of Chambers of the Occult, J is joined by special guest River to investigate the mysterious and controversial case of Karen Silkwood, a nuclear plant worker and whistleblower whose story shocked the nation.Set in 1974 Oklahoma, this true crime case dives deep into allegations of nuclear safety violations, corporate negligence, and a potential cover-up involving one of the most dangerous substances in the world: plutonium.Karen Silkwood was preparing to expose serious safety concerns at a nuclear facility when everything took a dark turn. After being mysteriously contaminated with radioactive material, she set out to meet with a reporter from The New York Times, carrying documents that could change everything.She never made it.Her car crashed under suspicious circumstances.Her documents disappeared.And the official explanation? It doesn’t add up.In this episode, we explore: The Karen Silkwood case and her role as a nuclear whistleblower  The strange plutonium contamination of her body, home, and food  The missing evidence and mysterious car crash The investigation, lawsuit, and lasting impact on worker safety and corporate accountability Theories surrounding her death, including possible foul play Was Karen Silkwood the victim of a tragic accident or was she silenced before she could expose the truth?If you’re into true crime podcasts, unsolved mysteries, conspiracy theories, and real-life whistleblower cases, this is one you don’t want to miss.Listen now and decide for yourself.

Chambers of the occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome back. Welcome back to Chambers of the Occult folks. I'm Jay. I'm River. And yeah, we have a guest for you. This is River.

Hello. I'm of a slight spooky-y-y-y. I'm in this astro crane from the... time to time, but I finally found the time to make this recording happen. And I love that. Now, River, thank you for coming on. Absolutely. I'm excited.

I've heard some of your guys' conversations about this in the back rooms, but I haven't actually gotten to, like, fully sit and listen to these. And I love, like, the occult and a lot of the, like, paranormal. I'm wearing my Roswell new. Mexico alien shirts. Cool. I'm wearing my like Winchester unhinged shirt as well. Represent.

Mm-hmm. I literally just got home from work. And I went from like work uniform to like Winchester shirt. No, literally Courtney was telling me. She's like, I lost my favorite Winchester merch the other day. And I was like, that's so funny that you have a favorite Winchester merch. But I get it. I have a sweatshirt that I really like that I'm like, this is.

my like discreet it's like it's the um tie-dye orange one and then it's got like a really tiny like 70s brain on like a little chest patch and backpatch and like if you're not looking it's not there it's very generously that I love but uh I think I wore that to the the union rep thingy thing up in North Bay that I went to um because I was like I don't know what else I'm gonna wear I should wear something Winchester and this is my only want to Zahommerge right now because I... Totally fair. Do not put money back into that company unless it's for gifts or out of need. I just don't go into the gift shop because I know I can't leave empty-handed. And I need to save money. It's in this economy. I mean, that's my excuse for everything, to be honest.

That's also in my script on the back porch steps. In this economy? Yeah. But yeah, so today I don't have a paranormal story for you. I have a true crime story for you. Yeah. So let's get started. If at some point you have any questions, theories, or just want to make a comment, just chime in.

You have a microphone. I don't mute you. I think that would be rude. Well. No, I'm talking now. Thank you. Yeah, but let's get started. All right. So let's start in 1974.

Oh, okay. November 13th, 1974. And we're not staying in California. We're going to. rural Oklahoma. Oh, Oklahoma. So picture this. It's dark. It's cold.

There's not much out there. It's just long stretches of road, fields, and silence. Oklahoma. And driving, I've never been to Oklahoma. It's very much a drive-thru state. I think, I don't think I've been there yet, but I have an estranged auntie who lives there.

I've been to Arizona, New Mexico, and Ohio. Ohio, my beloved. And Nevada. Nevada? Yeah. Of course. But that's it. Anyway, and driving down one of those roads is 20-year-old woman.

Her name is Karen Silkwood. Does that name ring a bell? Yeah. But I love a big thing. Okay. Cool. It is a Karen with a K. Of course.

I don't think there's a Karen's with C's. If I'm wrong, go ahead and I'm sorry, Karen's. Let me know. Respond in the comments. I know Karen. She's K-A-R-A-N. Yeah, go off, Karen. Yeah, go off, Karen.

But Karen is not driving home, and she's not just going for a drive. She's on her way to meet with a reporter from the New York Times. Okay. with documents that could expose a nuclear facility. Oh, okay. I love a good expose. I like the, like, I'm a secret, like, reporter. Don't, like, it's, like, some deep sort of type era, too,

because it's, like, 1970s. I've thought this, like, super important government docs that, like, no one's allowed to know kind of a thing. So cool, let's go. Well, the thing is she never makes it. Of course. She gets apprehended. She gets, you know, freaking, Princess Diana on the way, like, she's gone.

Yeah. Her car leaves the road, slams into a culvert. Colvert. Yes. And she's dead. And the documents. Gone. Completely gone.

And that right there is where this case stops being a simple incident and becomes something more unsettling. Interesting. So. No signs of fire, just like a simple crash kind of a thing? Well, the thing, yeah, we'll get into it. But let's figure out who was Karen Silkwood. Because Karen wasn't some like high-level scientist or executive. So why did you have this documents?

She was a lab technician working at the Keir McGee. Simmeran Nuclear Facility in Oklahoma. Her job was to make plutonium fuel rods. Oh, okay. So she's not the end of the line people that are making the nuclear energy. she's the one that's like synthesizing the plutonium and putting it into like a pure form. She's the crude oil refinery versus the like get into situation. Yeah.

So yeah, exactly. So that's why I was like needing to stress this. Like plutonium is not just dangerous. It's like one of the most toxic like substances like known to like humans. Yeah. Like even like microscopic exposure can like cause cancer. Oh, yeah. So like Karen was working with.

this daily. And with, of course, like 70s protections, pre-Ocha. Yeah. Brilliant. Now, this was, now at first, it was just a job for Karen. She was a single mom. She needed a source of income. But over time, she started to notice things.

And not just small things. Safety procedures were not being followed. Training had been reduced. Workers were being rushed. People were handling radioactive materials without proper preparation. And one of the most disturbing things, the company was downplaying the danger. So there's also accounts that training materials didn't even clearly explain the risk of cancer. We definitely did not have nearly as much cancer research back then.

shout out Susan G. Coleman. However, like, that's frustrating as a public health major. I'm like, what, because what you don't know can still kill you. Yes. But like, okay. And like, this also is really getting like a little wildly close to home. Because not my auntie or my grandma who lived in Oklahoma because my auntie lives there and a bunch of my other family on my mom's side does. shout out native reservations in Oklahoma being the only place where they decided to put a bunch of natives. But also, my grandma around that same time, I think, was undergoing cancer treatments and stuff in a bunch of different places. And that's why my dad moved around a lot because she had ovarian cancer that moved the rest of her body. And so, like, this is, like, very much the research at that time that was happening in other places. but definitely not used an awareness in the like public sphere nearly as much or in the workplace health and safety steps.

Like I said, like there was procedures for them. Like there was way to handle them. They were just like cutting back on the training. They were just like, they were just not being followed. Management disrespect. Never. And one supervisor reassured the workers that there was basically nothing to worry about, which is basically insane.

Because this isn't like working with like chemicals at a salon. This is nuclear material that you're working with. So Karen doesn't just file a complaint. She gets involved. And which I find it's so interesting how we start this conversation because she joins the oil and chemical and atomic workers union. Let's go. You know, find a union.

that works, but also like, that's so funny because literally for the like TAs and stuff at my university, they're all represented under United Auto Workers. That's why not. But at least like, you know, similar. They at least know a lot more of like registrations, not registration, but restrictions and safety procedures and like more of what would have to go in a union contract in order to help to help people from these sorts of things too. So that's great.

And this is exactly when like things starts shifting because Karen is no longer just a worker. She's become someone who started asking questions. She becomes someone who starts digging, who starts looking. And one union official later said something really important. Karen genuinely cared about the people around her. She saw her coworkers as people who didn't understand what they were being exposed to. And she felt responsible for that. Dang.

I love that. It also, like, it is always the caring, usually femme folks who are there to help, like, create that safe and, like, welcoming environment for people. Keep in mind, she's also, like, a single mother. So, like, she also already has, like, that nurturing in her. It's, like, she's naturally already, like, a caring person. Yeah. I love that. And then she finds something big.

Karen begins uncovering evidence that the fuel rods are being approved even with they're defective. Oh. Yeah. Meaning that they're being sent out anyway into nuclear systems. And even though they're like bleaching out the chemical because they're not fully protected. Oh, well, they're not fully protected. Oh. like not fully sealed or like they're not compliant whatever whatever they need to be compliant

they're still being sent out interesting also i just looked because i was curious um ocean especially started on april 28th 1971 um but it was signed into law by president richard nixon on december 29th 1970 um but it had to take some time to get like established so o'sha probably had a hand hand in like creating some of these things if the were the trainings, but that because they were only three years old, I'm sure management was like, we don't want to pay for that. And it's not actually being enforced by the government yet because they're never going to find out. We're just a silly little space out in Oklahoma. Big government's not going to get to us. We represent the state government because it's Oklahoma.

Honestly, probably. We'll get into a little bit of OSHA. So there were claims that the workers were literally using pens to alter inspection photos to hide cracks and flaws. No. Early Photoshop, no. Yeah, early Photoshop. But yeah. So after Karen's death, the investigators actually found evidence that this was happening. And at least 50 inspection photos had been tampered with.

Yeah. It's a lot. Oh, yeah. How much people, like, how often these, because also, like, quality control doesn't happen on every single one usually. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So 50 of them only were the ones that got pictures.

Because quality of control is just for, like, a batch. Yeah. Oh, no. Uh-oh. That's not good. So she wasn't imagining, imagining things. She was right. Mm-hmm.

And at this point. that's when Karen decides to expose everything. She contacts a New York reporter. She sets up a meeting. She gathers the documents, and that's when she's ready. And that's the moment where, like, everything changes. Because once you decide to expose something like this, you become the problem.

Yeah, you're the target. You're the whistleblower. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Now, here's where the case gets really disturbing, because about a week before she's supposed to meet the reporter, Karen becomes contaminated

with plutonium. Oh. I mean, low-key in inevitability, but also convenient that it's a week before the reporter, interview, kind of a thing. Well, not just at work. Her body is contaminated.

Her apartment is contaminated. Even her food. Whoa. And care McGee's response Her workplace They suggest she did it to herself Of course

You know It was a suicide That she could That she contaminated herself on purpose Which let's be serious No one is poisoning themselves with plutonium for attention Literally Jeez.

A single mother trying to to, you know, join a workers' union, try to expose her work pleas because she cares about the workers, trying to get them to get better work conditions to follow procedures that the workplace already has.

They're just not following. Yeah. If the food was contaminated, that means the kid got it too, though. That's what makes me sad. That the apartment is contaminated. Yeah. No, I'm like, well, okay. No, because like I think about the like lead fridges too. Because that was still, I think, a thing in the 70s. I don't know. I need to rewatch the beginning of Indiana Jones again.

But that like this is definite, like this feels way more planted. And apartment is curious versus a house. Because if they probably didn't text to the other apartments, but like if it has. Because I also know, like, you have to, like, make sure that your shoes are cleaned because, like, there's, there's the booties and everything that you're supposed to put on so that you don't drink dust home. But, like... And also, like, at that point, Karen had been working at the company for a while. She knows how to, like, not bring it with her. Yeah. Dang.

Oh, look. So, this is where things get even weirder, weirder, because she was contaminated. over multiple days. November 5th, 6th, and 7th. Her body had measurable plutonium levels. Her apartment was also contaminated that had items and those items had to be destroyed.

Whoa. And no one could explain how. Not clearly, not definitely, not definitely and later findings suggested something even more unsettling because there's evidence that her samples

may have been tampered with. Her samples are from her body, from the foreigners? Well, yeah, that plutonium might have been added. Wait. Why would... To what reason?

Would you want more post-mortem? Well, I mean, it just opens up the possibility that Karen wasn't just contaminated, that she may have been set up. Okay, because once you tamper with evidence, then you have to push in all of the evidence that was brought into the case as well, too, to say that other things. Also, like, once you have plutonium, like, it's radioactive, like, it starts destroying things. Yeah. And the more there is, like, the faster it works. Right. Okay, good point. Good point. Now, we get to the day that she dies.

She goes to work, she attends a union meeting, people there say that she's alert, she's focused, not impaired, and she leaves around 7 p.m. She gets in her car, she starts driving to the reporter, she has the documents with her, people saw them, people described her as holding them tightly and looking a little nervous but determined and then there was the crash

less than 30 minutes later she's dead her car is found off the road and the official story is that she fell asleep at the wheel okay but also so she's coming home from work because she's going to go meet with the person

This was like a week before. Well, she wasn't going home. She was going straight from work to meet with the reporter. And they were meeting in the same town. I mean, everywhere's, you know, far apart. It's fucking Oklahoma. And it's United States. Yeah.

Well, the reason said that they said that she fell asleep behind the will possibly due to sedatives. And case closed. But like, even if this was to say like, okay, yeah, like this is a, let's write it off as a suicide. Because that's always such an easy thing to brush her. under the rug and because people have this weird like sinner mentality because we live in a the theocracy. But like what what purpose would you do to have like barbiturates or sedatives before you go to ride when you already were on a mission like and this is something that clearly this person really cared about like the motive is what's missing here still.

That's the weird thing because the autopsy found traces of something. sedatives. What? Which meant that maybe someone at work? Right, was poisoning her in a way or another. Also because her food at home got contaminated too. Yes. Now, the sedative is called, I don't even know how to pronounce this.

It's Qualude. Yes. Okay. Quil, yes, that one. It was in her blood. And it was enough. Yeah, enough that the medical examiner said that it was enough to induce drowsiness.

I want to say quailudes were still common enough in public use. I don't know when they became not over the counter because, like, I don't know, shit was weird back then. This was not like poke in the, in the Advil kind of a thing, but like, not far. Quailutes. Yeah. So the authorities... Because we still use barbiturates today as a controlled substance and specifically for folks who suffer from seizures.

Barbiturates are a common use for that because it's a nerve pain dollar kind of thing. But clueludes are highly addictive central nervous system sedative, popular in the 60s to 80s that got banned at 1984 because of fatal overdoses. Got it. It was a safe sedative hypnotic that caused the heavy sedation. You know, it's a, it's a nerve one. It's on exactly an opiate, but like kind of a similar vibe, I feel. But it was a common prescription for insomnia and anxiety.

But then it became a Schedule 1 type drug in 1984. Which doesn't make sense that she would take it. in this specific situation. Right. She doesn't seem to be somebody who's suffering as much from anxiety and depression unless, like, it was a new medication. Maybe she had started, but like,

it's not entirely impossible to get a hand on as it is. No, definitely not. Not during this time, at least. Yeah. So once again, it's like, how did the accident happen? Well, we know that there's. there was, like, sedatives in her blood, like, in the system.

How did they get there? That is the question. That's the kicker. Mm-hmm. But we already know that there was, like, plutonium, like, in her, like, apartment, like, in her system as well. So, like, unfortunately, like, she would, all this things were, like, being introduced into her, like, system. And she was not aware of it. Right.

I wonder what are the symptoms of plutonium poisoning because does that also make you sleepy because the combos because again even if it was like a new medication that she might have started because it wasn't like super uncommon it's also apparently its street name is disco biscuits which I love them anyway no you're good that's could you say that one more time the street name for Kwayloods is disco biscuits Disco biscuits

That's a fun name It is good I'm glad we no longer have to deal with them But that's a catchy name I mean it's like Space Cakes is what people would call Edibles for the longest time And I love that

Oh that's catchy Anyway Anyway As Karen's death As that news started spread, skeptics obviously start to appear. Why would an expert driver drive on a road and simply like fall asleep suddenly? And what about the mysterious folder and documents that she was bringing to the meeting? Could the papers have blown with the wind or, you know, what happened?

So the investigators checked the car wreck. They found her purse. They found her notebook. They various personal items, but there was no folder. Those potentially damning documents had vanished without a trace. Eventually, some of the first responders that were at the scene said that they never saw any paperwork at the crash site beyond what the police saw collected. It was almost as if the evidence had been removed or perhaps as if Karen never got the chance to even bring it with her. Which is interesting because, as I said, her coworkers said that they saw her leaving with her carrying those tightly with her. Yeah, no, that's definitely a pride from my cold dead hands kind of shit. Like, as a unioner and as someone who's like a motherly position in life without actually producing children, thank God.

Like, it very much is. Like, no, no, I would, if I was in Karen's shoes, my ass would be sitting on those. documents to make sure that they aren't going anywhere because I also like to traffic windows down the AC and the and the heater off. Yeah. Especially if I was doing like night drives in Oklahoma like it sounds George. Totally fair. But um, so then it caused the issue like you can easily get bumped off the road or like nudged and and like I drive 17 all the time. There's there's turns and like even

though it's not obviously it's Oklahoma, it's flat straight. But just like just like, Oklahoma. No, but I totally get that. But that's when, like, the union stepped in, because, like, the union that worked with Karen did not believe the official story outright. They were, like, immediately suspicions that, like, Karen had, like, been run off the road by, like, someone

that was, like, trying to stop her. They were, like, someone else was involved in this. Yeah. So we talked about the autopsy. see. What about the police report? Like, was there damages to the car at all? Other than just, like, the ditch part. Was there like any...

The union quickly, like, hired their own independent investigator. Because they were, like, we're going to do this, like, our way. Like... Because also fuck the police. Yeah. So they hired a man from

Texas. They said, Oklahoma, no, thank you. Someone from Texas come over. His name is A.O. Pipkin, also known as Tony. Yeah. Wait, wait, one more? What's the whole name? A.O. Pipkin. Amazing. What an excellent name.

A.O. Pipkin. Ayo Pipkin? Mm-hmm. So they hired him an independent investigator to examine the car crash evidence. Pepkin was a season investigator. He was known for his colorful, bright orange jumpsuits. Yes, he was a man of fashion. You've got to be iconic if your name is Detective A. Yo Pimkin.

Uh-huh. So he arrived at the crash scene after the fact. As a full-ass traffic cone. But he had one critical piece of evidence to scrutinize. which was Karen's Honda itself, which had been towed to the local yard, and in particular, Pipkin focus on the rear end of the car. That's what I'm saying.

I'm like, you can so easily get bumped and nudged off the road conveniently by somebody. I'm telling you if she got fucking... This might be before Princess Diana. Oh, River. something. Okay, let's go. Because Pepkin found something that the highway patrol

completely just glossed over. They said she's a woman. She's always an accident. Yeah. So there was damage to the back of Karen's car that didn't fit the narrative of the

solo car crash. There were two distinct dents on the rear. Two. One on the left, bumper. Okay. And one on the left fender

just above it. Okay, so bumped forward and bumped sideways. Mm-hmm. Literally to get pushed off into the dirt. Yep. The dense were narrow and sharp, about two inches long, as if made by a hard-pointed object. It could have been from a tow truck,

pull in the car out of the ditch. No. The tow driver, Ted, named Ted, Sebring, so he hadn't cost any new damages, and he was careful with the wreck. No, I just tow truck drivers. They're all sweethearts,

or, like, trying to sell you something, and both are good, but, like, usually it's a sweetheart. I became friends with so many tow truck drivers when I was on campus. Oh, yeah. And when Pipkin's team, like, analyzed the dent under the microscope, they found no traces of, like, concrete from, like, the, from the culvert or roadway in it. So that, like, ruled out contact with the culvert or the road as the cause.

Right. Because if you were fully, like, asleep behind the wheel, your speed stays the same, if not increases because your muscle tension or, like, your, your, your, your, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, What's the word for it? Like, rigidity of your muscles. I don't know. It relaxes. And so if your foot's relaxing onto the thing, you're probably going to speed up. So it's a higher speed collision into the thing.

Hmm. Instead, they found tiny metallic particles embedded into the bumper's damage. So the back bumpers. Huh? Into the back bumper damage? Yeah. into the bumper damage. So to pick Pipkin,

this was the smoking gun. Those metal-like fragments could very well have come from another's vehicle, front end, smacking into Karen's car. And you said it with a Honda. Was it like a little car? Like a CRV. It was a...

I have that. Hold on. Let me not lose my page. You're good, yeah. Because depending on how high it was, it could also tell you what. It was a Honda Civic. I love a Honda Civic. Okay, so a little car, a little saying.

But if it's on the bumper, that means it's still pretty low. But I'm thinking like riot vehicles or whatever stupid police cars have on the big bumper on the front. It's an inside jump. It's the cops. You're good. So that's when Pipkin also started to examine the tire tracks from the scene and the photographs of the skit marks. And that's when he saw, what he saw suggested that Karen's car went out of control before it left the pavement. Which is not falling asleep behind the wheel.

That's what I was going to mention. Mm-hmm. The Honda appeared to have like rotated as it like left. the road rather than like simply drifted nose forward. Mm-hmm. Pipkin wrote in his report that the evidence pointed to either an impact by an unknown vehicle or a combination of an impact by an unknown vehicle and then the driver overreaction and subsequent loss of control.

Yeah. Because like it's so easy when your tail gets hit to like to think that you need to steer right for because you're like oh my nose needs to go right you only need to go right

and then left again it's an ice curve dang okay so like in other words Karen's car may have been

bumped or ran from behind which car caused her to like swerve and crash so the more that

Pipkin piece the puzzle together the more that it like diverge from the official

account and he eventually he eventually voiced his conclusion publicly he said I did not believe the accident was caused by Karen's silk silk would fall in asleep at the wheel

and the car just going off the road by itself to him there was simply too much circumstantial evidence of another scar's involvement the dense the metallic particles

the pattern of the skit marks In his expert opinion, Karen Silkwood had not fallen asleep at all. She was awake and fighting for control after being hit from behind. Damn. But of course, no one's going to believe him because he's not the police. He's an independent investigator from outside. That's when the union immediately went public pressuring authorities to dig deeper. Let's go.

They sent telegrams to the U.S. Attorney General. And to the Atomic Energy Commission, they were demanding a full investigation into whether Silkwood had been forced off the road. Under this pressure, Oklahoma officials did reexamine some evidence. But ultimately, they doubled down in their original verdict. Literally the evidence is right there. You just have to look at the back bumper. Mm-hmm. Like, that's so lame.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you're telling, I'm just like, you're having to, like, have a white straight man in, like, the 70s have to say, I was wrong. You're right. Yeah. Well, a white straight man who's also in a position of power because cops still on crazy amounts of power back then. Mm-hmm. Like, and they still do. But, like, there was.

so much more. This is like a midst slash before a lot of the like civil rights movement type shit too. And so police power was rampant as we're back again now. But like with abuses of power, people being paid off. I'm sure there's some sort like the oil companies have something to do with this. Like, I don't know. Police corruption is rampant still, but definitely worse than. Mm-hmm. At least now, like, things are a little bit more covert and less overt as it was

that thing. I feel like it's always going to be there, but like you mentioned, it's just more covert. Yeah, we have offshore bank accounts that we can push things into. How do I open one? Well, I don't know. friends trying to get me into selling or like to moving my 401k stuff from the university deposit to like a different one.

And I was like and then they were like, oh, but also pay into like politicians, PR funds and like these other people on like, not the S&P, thank God, but like you can have an S&P for specifically like groceries. And I was like, what? There's so many things out there nowadays. Yeah. Yeah. And I keep doing all the fucking robin.

Anyway. Uh-huh. No, you're, yeah, yeah. Um, so Lieutenant Larry Owen, the Howie patrol man who reviewed the case, later stood by his conclusion that it was a one car accident caused by a sleeping driver. He said, um, in an interview, he explained that such a dose could put a person totally asleep or in some state of stupor. So he just doubled down as well on like her being on quailudes.

But of course. That also still makes me curious about how would those have gotten into her sister? Yeah. Because it doesn't seem like it was a personal intention. I disagree with the folks to say that it's a suicide or whatever. I disagree with, like it probably wasn't, because she seems to be a very careful person, aware of, like, contamination and things like that she wouldn't have accidentally did too much if it was prescribed to her. But it also seems that, like, I'm curious, I'm like, was it somebody's birthday and somebody slipped or something in a cupcake? Or, like, what might have been the case there?

Like, what was the day at work looking like? but also the work of course isn't going to forego that information and her co-workers just said like, she was just doing fine she was doing normal cell. Yeah. The critics were still not satisfied.

Of course. So investigated journals picked apart the official investigation. So notably NPR reporter Barbara Newman famously confronted Lieutenant Owen

about why key evidence was being ignored. She asked why the Highway Patrol never even inspected Karen's car. What? They don't expect me while I'm driving.

What the fuck? That's so stupid. You're not so frustrating. Literally, leave CHP, you have one fucking job. Mm-hmm. I'm sorry to see. The O-HP? Weird.

Um... No, I get it. I get it. No, totally fine. That is... You are not overreacted. That is totally fine. Um, so

a base... That's just like the most basic step, like I think, in, like, in any car crash investigation. Literally. Like... So, So Lieutenant Owen conceded that they should have kept the car in our custody. That's strictly our hindsight.

Yeah, police oversight. That's why we have police oversight committees. Like, hello? And by the time that anyone looked closely, months had passed, and much of the evidence, including the car itself, was like no longer in pristine condition. Yeah, dust had gotten mixed in, probably radioactive dust. Jesus Christ, because I'm almost not enough other problems going on that I'm sure that they were reaching it from other places too. I can mention the whole mining problems.

Like, Jesus Christ. Yeah, no, I get it. Yeah, yeah. And that's their jobs. Why do we have their jobs? That is a great question. There was also David Berman. the reporter who never got to meet Karen.

Right. Yeah. So that night, they also felt that something wasn't right because looking back decades later, he also theorized about the car crash. Okay. So David's theories were that

they may have not wanted to kill Karen, but maybe they wanted to scare her and just make her like shut up. Berman said that whoever might have been like tailing Karen, even he doubted that Kerr-McKeys' top executives would directly order like a hit. He said that it's really unlikely that Keramakey's executives would try to kill her. Yeah, they don't have murder money. It's a fucking, like.

Yeah, so, you know, like things got out of hands. Yeah. Yeah. So, Berman reflect... Two bucks. Because, like, the first one was, like, a warning. And then again, like... Weird. Weird.

Yeah. So Berman reflected that perhaps... But perhaps others with a stake, also, like, with the evidence, maybe other people got involved. That one took initiative in silencing Karen. Like, they took matters in their own hands. Right. To say that if this was...

This was already, I'm sure, because unfortunately with the union, nothing goes unnoticed by the management as well. That only management was involved, but I'm sure people that had like higher ups, like like the board of directors kind of thing. That I'm sure had gotten paid money into the legislators and shit that they were starting to get involved. So now it's just kind of this big like follow the money kind of thing. Like there's people that are really not wanting that information to get out in the same way that like to, tobacco industries would pay for studies to show that oh tobacco's not that kind of a thing like they would

influence those sorts of decisions you can't do that with plutonium though you would think that they can but like this was also in the time period before like we were like excited about like what if we had like nuclear energy as a regular thing.

Like I know that's what Berkeley was researching really hard around the same time. I mean, love nuclear energy, but like there's a right way to go about it. There's safe ways to do it without contaminating the environment and people. It's a wonderfully renewable resource that's much longer lasting than a non-renewable resource based off of dinosaur bones. I don't know. I love I love the concept. of nuclear energy. I think this is what my roommate's younger brother is studying right now.

I love that people are still getting to study this kind of shit, that it's not like a thing just of the past. But it's also because of, like, I think about also like Chernobyl, which I don't know if that's happened yet in this story. No. I don't think so because that's 80s, right? This is 70s. Right, but Chernobyl was the 80s. I think so. I think so, too.

But like, again, it was the extent. new time for everybody to be like, what if we could? And like, this was like post-war kind of like, well, we know how it's destructive, but we don't, what we're also trying to like keep those research facilities alive so that we can still use it for power and generation and energy. But it was the like renewable resource for the time. And like people who are empowered who clearly were the oil barons, that's what it's called. The big fucker did oil.

Getting so mad and like trying to do that, that it very well could have gotten paid off. Like, they are the ones with the murder money, not the company, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then Chernobyl was in 1986. I just looked it up. Okay, gotcha. So only like 10 years after this. Mm, okay.

Incintinated. Yeah. Yeah, but in Karen's wake of, in the wake of Karen's death, her family and colleagues were, of course, left to, like, deal with grief and anger and, like, the unwavering conviction that, like, justice had somehow failed. So Karen's father, Bill Silkwood, had spearheaded a lawsuit against Keir McGee on behalf of Karen's estate and her three young children. No, you said single mom, you didn't say her many kids.

Yeah, she had three kids. Oh, chucks. Mm-hmm. So the claim was not about murder or conspiracy. It was focused on the company's negligence in contaminating Karen's, Karen with plutonium, and the suffering that cost her. So essentially the silhou. Oakwood family argued that Kerr-Meggie failed to maintain a safe

workplace, resulting in Karen's plutonium exposure, and indirectly in her death. Okay, so at least, like, again, not taking the murder stance, but instead saying, like, this was still going to lead in her eventual death forming way because of the exposure.

And again, harming the estate and the children. Yeah, apartment. Karen herself and her food. Yeah. So the Keir-Magee lawsuit became like a landmark case and it stretched on for years. In 1979,

a federal jury delivered a stunning verdict awarding over 10.5 million to the Silkwood Estate. So... Dang, that's crazy. That included $5,000 for

property damage to her contaminated belongings. $500,000 for personal injury and future health risks and a whopping 10 million impunitive damages intended to punish Kier McGee for its conduct. Okay, yeah. So like, and, you know, $10 million probably isn't like a huge drop in the bucket. But still, it's enough of a big, like, a solid thing. I mean, this is like three children that were left without their mother. Right, no, 100%. But that's, that would be under the, like, 500,000 or whatever.

No, yeah, for sure. The 10,000 was against the business for doing that shit. Yes. And, of course, damage them all the rest of the other people. So then did the pictures, the pictures were something that got lost, the edited pictures, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, the pictures were definitely something that, like, they ended up, like, finding those, like, 50 additional pictures. Okay, so that was found not in the case files.

That's right. Those 50 pictures were separate things that were found once they started looking at the company itself, like at the bigger picture. Yes. Okay, cool. So, like, ultimately, these sorts of, it's still the expose legacy still lived on in a way or another. So they were not able to figure out whatever Karen had in her files, but it did bring attention to the company. And they still, you know, they were able to see what the company was neglecting, what the company he was doing, not doing, including those 50 pictures of, like, early Photoshop.

I joke about that because that is genuinely, like, what they did. It really is. They were even doing that shit in, like, Victoria and I go too. You can do the film photography. So easy. You just blur it a little bit with your colors. And, like, when you're exposing the light, like, you just kind of, like, soften some parts and cover some other parts. Even side note and tangent.

I think Courtney was trying to tell me that there's the same picture that we have of William, but in a more, like, gritty format, like, he's got a wier beard. He's got, like, a little bit more loose, like, fray-like flyaways in his hair. Like, and he's got, like, a little bit more, like, pimples, not pimples, but, like, like, pores. And it's like it's a more, because it was probably a, um, um, um, de garotic, most likely that that photo was. But then the print that we have on the wall is a polished version. Got it. I think that that's funny.

Yeah. We'll have to be for that picture because it's exactly... Uh-huh. Yeah, but Bill Silkwood, Karen's dad, said that he felt pretty good about the jury's decision, that Keir McGee would, and also Keir McGee would never admit their guilt. He noted that the original jury found them guilty of gross negligence. Real. For worker safety.

Mm-hmm. Keir McGee, of course, productively appealed the verdict. Right, which brought it up to a federal judge. Of course. The company was, like, determined to avoid both the hefty fine and the precedent of, like, being held liable for, like, nuclear safety failures. You know, they want, of course. Yeah.

So the case went up straight to the U.S. Supreme Court. Not once, but twice. In 1984, the Supreme Court weighed in on a key issue whether a company regulated by federal nuclear safety laws could be liable for punitive damages under state law. In a decision that sent ripples through the industry, the court upheld the idea that Kier McGee could indeed be held liable for punitive damages.

Rejecting the notion that federal regulations shielded the company from such penalties. So this was major victory for the principle that nuclear corporations were not above the law.

However, the court also allowed Kier-Megie to contest the amount of the punitive damages, calling 10 million excessive. again, a drop in the bucket. What the fuck? Yeah. I don't know. I do believe it's just a drop.

I just find my settlement, so I feel that. I mean, I'm just trying to like see it, but I was like, how much is 10 millions for that company, like, in the 70s, though? Okay, yeah, but. I mean, I do agree that, like, yeah, they deserved it. But facing the prospect of, like, a new trial, the punitive damages were questioned. So McGee chose to settle out of court. And in 1986, they agreed to pay $1.38 million to Karen's estate. Okay.

That's crazy because $10 million in 1980 was like $40 million today. But $1.3, you said. Mm-hmm. 1.3 is like... $4.38. Yeah, 1.38 is like 5. Yeah, no. No.

What's happening it, basically. That is. Yeah. That's like a toilet. That's crazy. So they agreed to pay $1.38 million to Karen's estate without admitting wrongdoing. Wow. You know, as a typical settlement.

And after legal fees, of course, after legal fees, about 500,000. thousand went to Karen's children. You know, a modest sum to her father for his efforts. Which, like, $500,000 is still... Or $500,000 is still nothing to laugh. But for women your mom?

What the fuck? It was definitely far, like, less than, like, the original that the jury awarded. But by a scale of, like, time, like, that's crazy. His father, did say, as a matter of fact, on record, he said, I feel vindicated.

He said, because at the end, the company had been held accountable. Right. Like, justice still happened. Yeah. At least to the public, at least in the public eye. Yeah. Well, I'm like, I'm sure that, like, basically liable and slander that they faced because this was such a public case that, like, that's not enough of a reputable. If not just against the company, but also low-key against, like, I think about how we don't have nuclear power through most of the United States still today.

I'm sure that a lot of the, like, walk and forth of people taking strong stances, again, because this is such a public case, and because everybody's got their own damn opinions, because that's what it means to be an American. that this is like what's tied into a lot of this anti-nuclear hate still today. But like, and also the like anti-government restrictions on like free market or whatever. Like that that's kind of like the dark side of the legacy of this case. Yeah. That is true. That is true. How sucks so that they got such a cup of what that was?

Well, the thing is, in the court of public opinion, Kear McGee paid another price because the corporation's reputation suffered from the extensive negative publicity. As they should. Yeah, so by 1979, notably the same year as the three-mile island nuclear accident. Oh, I forgot that then. Yeah, that would do it too. Yeah.

Kier McGee shut down this Cimarron plutonium plant. So whether it closed due to economic reasons or because of the Silkwood scandal, or maybe just a combination, no more fuel rods were being made there after the 1970s.

So Kier McGee eventually, exited the nuclear business altogether. So, in a sense, the Karen Silkwood Crusade and the fallout of her death played a role

in, like, curbing the dangerously, like, run of nuclear operations for the company. Okay. So, like, eventually bringing down the company that did the heart. Is it presumably. Um,

allegedly. But also, like, inadvertently doing so instead of actually paying right fine. It's like it's doing so by the social side and less so by the financial side. Mm-hmm. Which I think it's. Yeah. So, you know, Karen's soapwood story didn't like end with the settlement or like the closing of the plant.

If anything like her impact only grew over the years after her death because she became like one of the most famous like whistleblowers in a maker. American's history. She became like a folk hero of like the labor and environmental safety movements. Her face appeared on magazine covers. Songs were written about her. And in 1983, Merrill Streep portrayed her in the Academy Awards nominated film, Selkwood.

Oh, let's go. Yeah. I love that street. Mm-hmm. So, she kind of like left her mark. Sorry, I just looked up the, like, this, and the first two images that I found of it

were just like a shirtless map. And I'm like, well, why is this being advertised for this film? Like, thank you. But that's not what I was expecting. Did you look up Silkwood? Yeah, the film. And, like, the, like, auto-star

of the trailer of it was just like a man shirtless leaning against a micro refrigerator in the 70s. And then presumably Merrill Streep younger, like, crunched over at work in her dues, in her uniform. It's just very funny that that's what sex sells. Yeah, so it's just interesting. in her like so young in this movie. I'm sure. What's fun? We should watch this. That sounds fun.

Honestly, I think we should. Yeah. We've also been dying to rewatch Winchester. So we should probably be nice with everybody. We definitely should. But yeah, also importantly, Silkwood's death became like a rallying point for activists beyond like the nuclear issue.

In 1979, on the first anniversary of her death, the national organization for women, also known as now, organized Karen's Silkwood Day, an event that demanded

a congressional investigation. Ooh, okay. We love what those happen. They frame Karen's plight in terms of both a worker's right and a woman's right. So now warned,

if we allow her death to go unacknowledged, unprotested, and uninvestigated, we will all be that much more, we will all be that much more vulnerable when the going gets tough. Yes. Okay, cool. So protests were held nationwide, calling for justice for Silkwood and better protections for others like her. Yeah. It's like, that's my thing is I'm like, I'm sure she was the whistleblower. But also, I'm sure so many of her other coworkers were also getting exposed due to the company negligence. And their, like, their stories aren't being told. But through now and through the, like, social discourse and, like, also they did probably get laid off, which sucks. But, like, cool, company got closed. But also that means that. all those workeries. Don't get to work there anymore.

I mean, and eventually those whistleblower, like, provisions were, like, strengthened by federal laws. Oops. Yes, yes, yes. And, like we mentioned earlier, OSHA, which was, like, newly formed, like, in the 1970s, gave more attention and support to, like, enforce workplace safety standards. Let's go, OSHA. Yeah. So, while the Nuclear Regulatory Commission could no longer, like, uh,

could no longer as easily ignore workers' complaints. In fact, investigations after Karen's death confirm many of her allegations. For example, government inquiries found that control records had indeed been doctored at the plant, just as she claimed. You know, we talked about those pictures. So there was a lot of things that change even after her death. and I think it's one of those like

very like unfortunate things and like many true crime cases like Karen's she was out to like make a change and she did make a change but like it unfortunately came at the cost of her life yeah yeah no and like this is why I was just telling

somebody that I was I was meeting that's very religious that I'm just like You have three deaths. You have your physical form when it dies. You have the last time that your name is spoken, and you have the last day in which your legacy is like upheld. And like even like I love that the name is attached to the legacy because then that'll live on even longer. And same with Sarah. But like the way in which you're like, those kids get to live on and have lives and hopefully not missing on cancer to their kids.

we have the way in which her legacy was like we had a movie was made about like these ways in which her legacy and her impact will live on past her passing is like otherworldly or like in a way

transcends the mortal realm and I think that's magical well but yeah that's the story of Karen Seltwood I do love a good government conspiracy case. There's so many of them out there.

I think that they're fascinating because not only does it play into the like anti-government but also like anti-science and anti-authority kind of movement that is you know, cross-platform. Like we see them in the homeschoolers. We see that in the anti-vexers. We see that in the environmentalists. it's very much a cross, what is it when it's like nonpartisan. It's a nonpartisan issue.

Because even, oh my God, even everybody with the Epstein files, they're like, QAnon knew it first. It's like, well, yeah. But like, y'all didn't have the same movement and, like, belief in these other things to provide that evidence. And so it takes, it takes everybody working together to get that. seeing justice despite our disagreements personally, politically,

all that jazz. Because once we unite over this shared argument, then we can actually get things moving. And like, you know, we pick up a man from Texas. But like, who's dressed like a fucking traffic of him? I love that.

I love that. He is. So bad. I'll see if I can find any pictures to like share them with you. Hey, yo, Pinkman. Yes. I hope he's in the movie. Actually, that's a great question.

But yeah, thank you for coming, River. Thank you. This is fun. I've been an avid podcast listener. I love, if I can, shout out Red Web, a different podcast that I love. For sure. Milo did that last time he was in,

so you're more than welcome to do it as well. It's a murder mystery or like online internet mystery movie about podcast or a podcast about movies. They like have a counter of like how fast can they reference a movie in each episode. It's so much fun. They're just a bunch of like nerds and it's great. But it also ties into a bunch of different fun like ghosts and ghouls and mothman and other like little guys. and I love and I want to get back into them

and so what is it called? It just called Red Wed. It used to be a subsidiary of rooster teeth before rooster teeth had a lot of

very legitimate sexual assault allegations and like management for management issues and decisions but I'm glad to see that they went independent and are still able to keep doing cool shit despite all of the financial like they went they went um fully self self made now which is kind of fun

and still they have like a video and I yeah no it's great I love that they're able to still do it because they are men in power but it's great but that's always fun and I've been dying to do more like this sort of a deep dive I know I do want to come talk about Princess Diana Because I love her and she died on my birthday I think I think now I'm going to have to double shit I will block that story off for you No one else is allowed to cover that

That's your story No not Jesse Pinkman God damn it I want any hell Pinkman Um Okay Princess Diana died on my On my first half birthday

She died on her 31st, 1997. But I stumbled upon her, like, memorial while I was in France getting lost for fun. Oh, wow. Yeah, it was pretty cool. I literally just, like, wrote that, like, in, like, big letters, like, in my note right now. So, like, I'm going to put that, like, on the drive. I'm like, that is your story.

No one else is getting it. No, no. It's so cool. I love. So, I'm coming soon, listeners. I will be back. You will be back. Yeah, now that I know that I don't have to have all this extra equipment and shit to do this.

No, you don't, no. And if, like, at some point, like, we want to get in person and do that, we can also do that to, like, record it in person. I got out the equipment. We'll meet in the last way. You'll come from your house. I'll go from my side of the hill. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a forest somewhere. What is? If the listeners want to, like, follow you, like, on your social media as can they? Sure. Let's see. I think I'm on TikTok for my drag shit. I've not posted in there for a while. I think there I'm River Me Shimmers on Instagram for sure. That's like River Me Shimmers. S-H-I-M-E-R-S. We can put it in the caption or whatever if you really want. And then I think, now I have to look up what the fuck is my TikTok. Because I just have been I switched since. doing TikTok drag IRL, which is so much fun.

I miss it. I need to go back. Yeah, my TikTok is Mix River Fluid MX. dot River. Dot fluid. And it's fuck silly goofy shit because that's the kind of guy that I am. Yeah, or come visit us at the house, L.O.L. Sierra San Jose, that too.

Yeah, River is also one of our tour guides. Only for one day a week and one day only. Special special occasions. And with that, yeah. With that, we'll let you go listeners. Thanks for coming, guys. Thank you.

Bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to Chambers of the Occult. For photo, sources, or anything else mentioned during the episode, check out our website at chambers of the occult.com. You'll find everything you meet there. if you need to find yourself wanting more. You can also follow us on all our socials at Chambers of the Occult

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