Change Your Brain Every Day - Elizabeth Smart on Surviving Kidnapping & Painful Memories, Plus Healing & Posttraumatic Growth

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

Elizabeth Smart shares her powerful journey after being kidnapped at age 14 in 2002, revealing how she turned unimaginable adversity into hope and posttraumatic growth. Join Dr. Amen and Elizabeth as they review her brain scans and discuss the brain’s response to trauma, the resilience factors that foster growth, and the actionable steps you can take to heal and thrive after life’s toughest challenges. 00:00 Intro 01:30 Sponsor 02:38 Elizabeth 05:39 Before the Kidnapping 07:07 The Kidnapping 13:18 The First Days 19:46 The Kidnappers 32:25 Mental State During Captivity  39:10 Rescue 53:15 The Aftermath/Panic Attacks 58:45 Processing the Trauma 1:04:24 Post-Traumatic Growth 1:09:50 The 4 Circles/BRIGHT MINDS Risk Factors 1:16:00 Elizabeth’s SPECT Brain Scans 1:23:12 Final Impressions 1:24:36 Sponsor 1:26:02 Wrap Up

I asked him if he was going to rape and kill me, could he do it like close to my home just because I wanted my parents to know what had happened to me. And I had heard on the news of reports of mountain lion attacks and there were coyotes up behind my house as well. And so, I mean, I wanted my body to be in one piece. And I remember saying, if you're going to rape and kill me, could you do it here? And when I said that to him, he had, he'd looked at me and smiled. He's like, I'm not going to rape and kill you yet. Every day you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better every day. I'm really thrilled to have Elizabeth Smart on our podcast. You might remember that when she was 14 years old, she was kidnapped and then literally raped every day for nine months. And then she was found and rescued and has just gone on quite the

journey. And one might think she would have post-traumatic stress disorder. But what we're really going to talk about today is post-traumatic growth. We're going to look at her brain and talk about the amazing journey and work that she does now. Are you struggling with anxiety, depression, obsessive thinking, past emotional trauma, ADHD, or brain fog and don't know where to turn? Are your relationships a mess and you don't know why? Have you had a brain injury, concussion, or just don't feel the same after COVID? Is your memory worse than it was 10 years ago? Or do you have a parent or grandparent with dementia and want to work on prevention. Yes, prevention is possible, but the sooner you start, the better.

For 35 years, we've been changing people's brains and their lives using brain spec imaging and a personalized natural approach to brain and mental health care. And we have some of the best published outcomes anywhere. Go to amenclinics.com to learn more. And when you call us, mention Podcast 10 for a 10% discount. Thank you so much for doing this.

I've been looking forward to it. And as I got to read your history, I'm looking forward to it even more. Well, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I watched your documentary. I've looked at your scan and I've looked at your testing and I'm sort of blown away that you're as healthy as you are. So many people think that if someone goes through a severe trauma, and you and I would agree that was a severe trauma, that it would wreck them, but it didn't wreck you. Why? I don't know. It just, I mean, like it was hard and it was terrible. And, um, like it was the worst nine months of my life, but I don't know. I felt like I, like once I was rescued, I didn't want to lose the rest of my life

to what had happened the last nine months. I felt like I'd been given a chance at life back and I didn't want to miss out. I wanted to experience life. I remember specifically having the thought after I was rescued that if I died today, what would people say at my funeral? How tragic it was that I was kidnapped and I made it all the way through my kidnapping only to die. Like I felt like my kidnapping would play kind of center stage at my funeral. And I remember thinking, geez, when I die, like I hope people laugh. Like I hope like there's so much more to share than just my kidnapping. And so I guess for me, I've always just wanted to keep living life. I love that so much. You know, one of the myths about PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder is everybody that goes through a trauma develops it.

And it seems like that's not true, that a percentage of people do, absolutely. But a percentage of people develop post-traumatic growth. And I actually want to spend a fair amount of time today talking about that. There does become certain decisions that you make that either increase the likelihood of long-term trauma or decreases the likelihood of trauma. So I want to talk about those. Your goal is you're interested in your brain and in trauma, which is why you decided to do this with us. I looked at your history. You were kidnapped when you were 14, right? Yes. Before 14, what was your life like?

I mean, I think it was pretty idyllic. I come from a pretty large family. I was second of six kids. I mean, I would say we were pretty close knit. Like we weren't perfect. I mean, like I didn't want to share a room with my sister, but I had to, like, I didn't want to necessarily like, I don't know, do chores around the house or like yard work on the weekends. But I mean, it was just expected that kind of thing. Um, but I mean, we, like I grew up spending a lot of time with my family. I studied music. I mean, I took harp lessons from the time I was five on. Um, I don't know. I think I was a pretty good student. Uh, I think I was a pretty obedient kid. Um, I don't know. I think I was a pretty good student. Uh, I think I was a pretty obedient kid. Um, I don't think I've ever been like super rebellious or wild. Um, but I, I wouldn't say that really appealed to me either. Like if my parents told me, no, like the thought of like

sneaking out of my house and actually contemplating doing it never would have crossed my mind. Like I would have never done that. That would have been completely out of character for me. We as a family, like we went on trips together and we went up into the mountains together. And like in the winter, we skied together and snowmobiled. And in the summer, we'd go visit my grandparents ranch and go horseback riding together. I don't know. It was pretty great.

Well, and that's one of the factors that protects people. Can you talk about the night you were taken? I feel like a lot of people, they're like, I just knew something was going to happen or knew something bad. That was not my story at all. It was a good day. The day leading up to the night, it was the end of the school year. I was excited for summer to happen. I was excited to not, I don't know, get up and get ready and go to school. Like I was very much

looking for the summer. We had like fun summer plans coming up that I was really looking forward to. I was going to graduate from junior high and I lived in a nice neighborhood. I lived in what I'm sure everyone would have considered a safe neighborhood. And I shared a room with my younger sister, and I remember going to bed that night. And I remember really the next thing, waking up, just to a stranger's voice, like a man's voice, which was really strange because men weren't allowed in my bedroom. Strangers weren't allowed in my bedroom. I mean, my parents were already like really strict, even with like just having friends over. And so, I mean, that was just, that was so far from anything that I expected to hear at first, I just didn't think that could

even be real. How could that even be possible? So, I mean, I, I remember not immediately moving and I remember, um, him repeating the same words again, which were, was I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound, get up and come with me. And like, I just remember being scared. Like I'd never really been scared like that before. I mean, like before that moment, being scared was doing poorly on an assignment, going to my harp lesson unprepared. I don't know, having my parents tell me to go clean my room and instead just sneaking up and reading my book and then hearing my parents' steps coming towards like

really small, trivial things. And so in that moment, I just remember thinking, there's nothing for me to do. I can only do what he's telling me to do. And, uh, I knew my younger sister was in bed next to me. I thought she was asleep at the time. Um, I didn't know that she actually was awake watching it happen. And so I got up and I did exactly as he said. I mean, I remember he took me into my closet. I remember reaching for a pair of slippers, but he like specifically pointed out my tennis shoes that I should take. I remember like the path he led me through my home, out through my back kitchen door and my home. Is that how he came in the house?

No, he broke in through a window. Yeah, he forced it open and cut through the screen and came in. Yeah. And so, but he did take me out the kitchen door, the back kitchen door. What time of the morning was it? It would have been like around between two and three in the morning.

Yeah. It would have been very early, early morning. And he, yeah, he took me up through my backyard. And that was even before he let me put my shoes on. It wasn't until we were like at the very top of my backyard that he actually like sat down and gave me a chance to put my shoes on. And then I remember from there, he, I mean, he took me up into the mountains behind my house. And I mean, we were running up into the mountains. We didn't make it to his hidden campsite till after the sun was up.

I mean, the sun was risen by the time we made it there. And what was he saying to you? There were a few different things that he said. I mean, the two that I guess I've spoken most about have been when I, I asked him, um, if he was going to rape and kill me, could he do it like close to my home? Just cause I wanted my parents to know what had happened to me and I had a pretty active imagination. And I had heard on the news of reports of mountain lion attacks. And there were coyotes up behind my house as well. And so, I mean, I wanted my body to be in one piece.

And I remember saying, if you're going to rape and kill me, could you do it here? And when I said that to him, he had looked at me and smiled. He's like, I'm not going to rape and kill you yet. Yet? Yet. Yeah, there's a yet there. There's a yet there. And the other question that I remember that was, I guess, stood out more than others was I asked him if he realized what he was doing.

Because if he got caught, he'd spend the rest of his life in prison. But I remember begging him that if he just let me go, that we wouldn't press any charges. But he responded that he knew exactly what the consequences were. The only difference was he was not going to get caught. Beyond that, he really didn't answer my questions or he'd answer them in a roundabout way. Like if I said, why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? He'd say stuff like, all will be revealed in due time. If I asked him what was going to happen next, it was kind of the same thing. All will be revealed in due time. At one point he did tell me he was taking me hostage. And I remember telling him like, whatever you you want, like my parents will do it.

They'll find a way to make it happen. Just like, just let me go. So this is actually a very organized kidnapping. Yes. He had seen me like the October, November before I was kidnapped in June. He saw me October, November before I was kidnapped in June, he saw me October, November. And he, from the moment he saw me, like without ever talking to me, without having any interaction with me, he decided I was the one he was going to kidnap. And from that time to the time that

he actually did kidnap me, he, he planned. Yeah. And then the first couple of days, what were they like? They were pretty bad. I mean, when I got there, he, like, I was changed. He told me I was now his wife. Like, he tried to marry me. He raped me. He chained me up. I mean, the first day after all of that happened, which happened within the first like half hour of me

getting into this hidden campsite. Um, he, both he and his wife, cause his wife was there waiting for his real wife, his legal wife was there waiting. And both, both of them had said, you know, you can cry today, but after today, you can't cry anymore. And you're not allowed to speak about your family and your name's not Elizabeth anymore. And you will come to realize that God commanded us to take you and that you were chosen by God to become, uh, well, he claimed his name was Emmanuel at the time, Emmanuel's second wife. And just those first, I mean, those first few days were just,

like, a lot of them justifying what they did by saying God commanded it. I mean, the second day that I was there, well, at the end of the first day, they, and I mean, they controlled everything. They controlled how much water I could drink. They controlled how much food I was allowed to eat. They, you know, controlled when I went to sleep. I mean, they really controlled every waking, breathing moment of my life. And the second or at the end of the first day, they said, he said, Brian Mitchell, his real name. He said to me, because I was shy and timid and what 14 year old would not be in this situation. But he said, he said that it was important for me to realize that I was no better than anybody else and that we needed to take things all the way back to the beginning. So the next day, the second day, we would all be like Adam and Eve

in the garden of Eden. And I had to go naked all day long. And that the next day they were going to demonstrate properly how a husband and wife had sex. And I would need to watch and I would need to learn. And then I would immediately need to perform everything that I learned. And I mean, the next day came and I mean, everything about the setup in the, in the camp, inside the tent, I mean, was to control me. I mean, even at night when it came to sleeping, um, I was in the middle. I had a captor on, on either side of me. The next day came and sure enough, like they stripped me down and demonstrated. And I remember just closing my eyes and looking away because I really didn't.

Like I was, I was very innocent. I was a very innocent 14 year old. I was a very young 14 year old. And I remember just thinking like, I can't look at this. This is bad. This is wrong. I shouldn't be looking at this. This isn't right. But I remember them just like, they wouldn't end it until I watched. They wouldn't, you know, they're like, you're not going to have anything to eat. You're not going to have anything to drink. Like you cannot leave this tent until you look and you learn.

And that's, I mean, that's what happened that second day. And what's going on inside your mind? I mean, there was a lot going on. I was raised, I was raised Mormon, very conservative religion. And like my whole life, I had been taught about like chastity and purity and virtue. And really they kind of just seem to mean don't have sex before marriage. And like I had 14 years of that education. And in the meantime, nobody taught me the difference that there was a difference between sexual abuse and rape versus like actual, like loving, consenting intimacy. Uh, nobody ever took the time. It just wasn't really spoken about. It was

just, you don't do it. And so, I mean, I felt a huge sense of guilt, um, even though I knew it wasn't my fault, I still felt guilt. I felt a lot of self worthlessness. Like I just lost my value. Like one physical act took away all of my value as a human being. I, like, I was scared. I just, I mean, how could this happen to me? Why did this happen to me? I feel like I felt a little bit of everything and, and my brain was going in like a hundred different directions. Like, why would someone want to kidnap me? Why would someone want to hurt me? Like, why would he choose me? And what was my family doing? Were they okay? Were they, I mean, the first morning, like, did they even know I was gone yet?

Were they looking for me? What was going to happen? Was I going to be rescued? If I could just hold out long enough, would I be rescued? Would it, would I be worth rescuing if people knew what had happened to me? Or would, was I a lost cause that people just didn't know about it yet if i survived and i made it back into society like would i be accepted or would i be shunned like because i lost my value um those were a lot of questions that

that were going through my mind. So much, right? So much. Were you the first person they kidnapped? Yes. I mean, they tried others, but they hadn't been successful. And initially they had tried just approaching grown women to come be, like, with them for a bit. But ultimately, she did leave.

This is before you? This is before me. And I mean, both of them had prior marriages to different people before they married each other. And, um, I mean, they had been on, I would say he had been on a dangerous path since he was a kid. And I think there were, as I've learned more about his history, there were red flags along the way. I did not have to be kidnapped. Like people could have, if people had taken action based on what they saw of him well before 2002, I would have never been kidnapped, but his behavior just went unchecked and he got away with things. And I think it built up like a, it just made him feel like he was so important because he did get away with so many things. He wasn't stopped. And I think he also

found that the best way to manipulate people was through religion. And I think also, if you look back at that time, 9-11 had only happened in September prior to my kidnapping. And I mean, I was a kid, but it certainly felt like on the news, a lot of people were really kind of nervous about any form of like religious extremism. And I think my captors took that into account. I mean, they changed the way that they dress, they changed the way that they acted. I mean, and I just, like, I think back on that time and I, like, I can remember jumping, I guess, further ahead in my, during my captivity, like on the rare occasion, they did bring me into public, just the way that everything about us kind of screams, stay away. I remember walking down the street and seeing people look up when we were walking

towards them, cross the street, go by us and then cross back over or people rolling down their windows of their car. And as they drove by, um, yelling things like Osama as they drove by. So, I mean, I think there was a lot of thought put into gaining as much control of the situation as he could and in pushing people away. And I mean, even today, I feel like a lot of people are hesitant to push too hard when someone says, well, it's part of my religion. I mean, there might be questions of curiosity, but I think very few people actually will call you out and be like, you're wrong. Your beliefs are wrong. And I think my captors really capitalized on that. So the first month you were in captivity for nine months.

Yes. What were the things going through your head the first month? I mean, I would say mostly it just came down to how am I going to survive? It mostly just came down to, I mean, I, I did make the decision early on that I wanted to survive regardless of if society accepted me back. Cause I, I finally got to a point where I felt like my parents would accept me back. And if they accepted me back, that was enough. So where did this idea come from? That somehow it was your fault and they wouldn't accept you? I mean, I knew that like, it was the sexual

violence. I mean, I knew that it wasn't my fault. It's not like I asked to be kidnapped. It's not like I asked to be raped. It wasn't like I was like actively engaging in it. Right. So I knew that was not my fault. But just having had 14 years of like going to church every single Sunday. And I don't know how many lessons, so many lessons, like talking about purity, talking about chastity and virtue. And like, there'd be examples like, uh, you like a piece of gum. And if you have sex before marriage,

it's like someone chews up that piece of gum and nobody wants a piece of gum that's been chewed up or like, you know, you're like a flower. And if you have sex before marriage, it's like someone's plucking that pedal, the pedals off the flower. Like nobody just wants an empty stem. So having years of like those lessons instilled in me and those examples, like is chewed up gum nobody recycles chewed up gum you throw it away like and what about flowers like i'm not crafty enough i suppose to know i'm sure there's something you could do with them today but i don't know what it is like but once a

flower like when i'm given flowers like like I love them. I love flowers. But once they've dropped their petals and died, like I throw them away. So there was not a big focus on grace and forgiveness and the woman at the well and Mary Magdalene. I don't think anyone would say there wasn't. The dots just weren't connected. That's not what stuck with you. That was not taught. Yeah, which is so sad.

And so, I mean, I very much felt that my worth was tied to whether or not I was a virgin a chase chase yes before marriage and you decided to survive yes and so at least in the documentary yes i watched you were cooperative as you could be right with what you knew and do you think he was psychotic like i know i don't think he was crazy i mean maybe there's a different evil i thought he was evil i think he found a really effective way of manipulating people around him and i think that's what he loved i mean i think he loved being able to control people. I think that's why he liked, like, I think that's why he liked kidnapping me or having me because he could control everything. Like he could control absolutely everything about my situation. Um, and I think that's ultimately what he loved. He loved having like a sense of power and a sense of control over other people and a sense of self-importance.

I think both of them loved that. I mean, they used to get into terrible, terrible fights. Like my parents disagreed growing up, but I had never heard it, heard them like just absolutely like screaming and wailing on each other. Like, sure. If they disagreed, like we all, like we were aware of it, but I never heard them just like berate each other or anything like that. I never saw that kind of behavior. So then when my captors, like they just like Wanda Barzee, his wife, like she just would like yell at him because, and it was typically over me because she, I was jealous that he was looking at me or that he wanted to rape me and not be with her. And she, but I don't think she hated me because I think she got that same sense of satisfaction because she also got to boss me around.

She also got to like have a degree of control. And so they would, they would just yell and fight with each other until finally he would like get caught, like he would calm down and he would then turn around with just like the oiliest tone of voice, just like the most self-important, like I have a direct, I have a private phone line to God kind of voice, you can imagine. And they also did not go by their legal names. He went by Emmanuel and she went by Hepzibah.

And he would turn to her and he would say things like, Hepzibah, Hepzibah, I love thee. God has a message for thee. God wants to speak with thee. And then he would give her a blessing in which, like he said, he held a special priesthood that only he held, only he held and he would give her this blessing and it would say things in it like, you are the mother of Zion. You have a throne awaiting you in heaven on the right hand side of God. Your crown that is prepared for you defies all, all even imagination is beyond anything you can imagine. Um, like you just need to endure this life. And yes, Emmanuel, like he has a very heavy burden to carry a very heavy mantle lies upon him and you need to be his support. And if he turns to Shir Jashub,

which was the name they gave me for comfort, you need to support that. And then he would finish and he finishes his blessing on her, his, but God needed to tell her and like she would calm down. It was his way of controlling her. Like, and then, I mean, she would turn back to him and be like, I am a queen and I am a mother of Zion and I deserve, you know, more respect. And you just turned to her because you were intimidated by me and she's not as special as I am. And you don't have to like live up to God's expectations with her the way you do with me. So I know when I talk about these things and I hear myself talking about these things, I know it would be easy for people to think, yeah, he's that's crazy talk,

but I just don't think he was because everything was so calculated and he was, it would be wrong to think that he was not intelligent. It would be wrong to think he didn't understand what he was doing. He knew he talked to me about the consequences of actions if he was ever caught like he knew what he was doing both of them did and i think they just got into a i think they just went down a path of of greed and selfishness and wanting to be important but not actually willing to like put the effort into such a twisted way. Yes. Right. I mean, it's such a twisted way yet. Clearly the kidnapping was organized. Yes. And the repeated raping was purposeful. Yes. Right. Um, what was the lowest point when you were taken or? I honestly don't know if I could say what was the lowest point.

There were some. There were some very low lows. And I feel like years ago, there was a movie that came out. It was ever after it was like with Drew Barrymore in it. And it's based on like a Cinderella kind of story. And there's a point where the evil stepmother says to Cinderella, Drew Barrymore, that she to like quote her, she says, we mustn't ever feel sorry for ourselves because no matter how bad things get, they can always get worse. And, um, when I was kidnapped, I remember thinking I have

hit rock bottom. Things can't possibly get worse. And then they would get worse. And then, I mean, that had been like a family favorite movie. And I remember thinking, wow, she's actually right. Things always can get worse. Like, I'm not sure if there is a rock bottom. And so I eventually stopped thinking this is as bad as things can get because it felt like I would be devastated then when something else worse would happen. And so I felt like I tried to switch my thought process to being like, okay, this is pretty bad. This is really bad. But like, thank heavens it's sunny today because I'm not cold. Or thank heavens it rained because I haven't had water in over a day and now I have something to drink or thank heavens someone threw their

like half of their burrito in the garbage can thank heavens they didn't feel like fishing up because now like my captor has given me something to eat so I felt like I had to switch my thinking because I, it was just too hard the other way. And were there high points? Were there high points? Um, I don't think I'd ever say I was like happy with them. There were points that I was less worried or scared. Um,

there were points that like, like the first time they ever brought me out into public, I remember feeling hopeful that something good would happen, that maybe I'd be recognized or that this could lead to my, lead to my rescue, or maybe even I just get a glimpse of like my family because I wasn't far from my home. I was only like three miles, a little bit over three miles away from my house. And I mean, when they took me down into Salt Lake, like, it's not like I didn't know where I was at. I knew where I was mean, when they took me down into Salt Lake, like, it's not like I didn't know where I was at. I knew where I was at. Like they took me to places that were familiar

to me. Why do you think they did that? Didn't they think somebody might recognize you or you might try to run? Um, I mean, it wasn't like they just let me walk wherever I wanted. I mean, it wasn't like they just let me walk wherever I wanted. I mean, I was always in between them. I was always within reach of them. And I had been heavily threatened for a long time. And they followed through with their threats. Like if I ever tested them, they followed through. So the threats they did

make were very real to me. And I, um, I think, I think it comes back to like that power rush and that control rush that he got knowing that Salt Lake city was so heavily invested in the search for me that so many people were looking for me i think he like got a real high off of parading me through the streets without people actually critically looking at me or just being like, oh, they're like religious freaks. And when he brought you back to camp, would he be high off of that? I mean, yeah. He said things like, we just have to have faith in God. And like today, God will blind the people, even though you're right in front of them.

He would say things like that. Wow. And when they got arrested, they're in jail for how long? So Wanda Barzee has been released. She is out. But Brian Mitchell, he got life without parole. And do you feel confident

he'll always be in prison? Yeah. Well, yes. Um, yes I do. And how did you feel when she got out first marriage was a mother. She had six kids of her own from her first marriage. And how could she, and they were all older than me. I mean, her youngest was still older than me. I mean, she could have had grandkids my age. And how could she just step aside and not, not only just step aside, but encourage not just my kidnapping, but my rapings

like, and watch them happen. How could she do that? And I'm, I mean, she was in my, my feelings was she was every bit as bad as he was, as he was. I mean, she was, in my feelings, she was every bit as bad as he was. I mean, she might not have ever personally raped me, but she sat there and let him. She encouraged him. She watched it all happen. It felt pretty complicit to me. So I was disappointed. At that point, I was also, I remember also thinking, wow, this must be how all the victims who, at least I got something.

I mean, everyone at least knows she's wrong, even if she's out walking the streets now. What about all those victims who never even had that? I feel like it gave me a little bit more compassion for all of the survivors who never have even that. I feel like it gave me a little bit more compassion for all of the survivors who never have even a drop of justice. Talk about the day you were rescued. During my captivity, my captors had taken me to Southern California for the winter, um, outside of San Diego, a place called Lakeside. And, uh, I was not like taken in public really very much at all. And at one point they stopped it completely from taking me out in

public. Uh, they did actually attempt to kidnap another young girl, But all this time, I mean, I realized that my chances of being found or rescued were like getting smaller and smaller. And that ultimately my best chance of rescue would be to get back to Utah, would be to get back to Salt Lake. And so I'd been able to convince them to return to Salt Lake. I had a plan of how to get back too. They always talked about like all of their suffering that they experienced and how, um, how important it was that they actually experienced those sufferings because they'd used the comparison that Christ descended below all things. And so it was important that they descend below all things before, just like Christ was exalted, they need to experience that before he could exalt them

as well. And so I listened to nine months of them talking about their suffering and trials that they experienced, even down to silly things like giving up a car, then relying on public transportation, then taking it a step further and having to hitchhike. And so I thought, well, what better way to possibly put me in contact with as many different people in an environment that's not controlled by them. That's, you know, whoever picks us up, it's their environment. Like surely they'll notice like, this is not, this is not okay. Like this is not normal. This whole dynamic of the three of us, someone is going to notice something. And so I framed it the same way. Like, you know, you've, you've shared with me like your experiences of suffering and your trials and tribulations. And as I've been growing and learning, I feel like this is something that I need to experience as well.

And I think that I need to learn to have faith that God will provide a way. And I think it would be good for us to experience, good for me, good for me, to experience what it is like to put my faith completely in God and rely on complete strangers to pick us up and take us to our destination. And that's how I decided we hitchhiked back. So we hitchhiked back and it was the first day we made it back to Utah. We were walking up State Street in Salt Lake City. They'd taken me into a Walmart because it was their plan that once they got me up into the mountains, that they were never going to bring me out of the mountains again once they got me up to the hiding spot.

And so it was March. I mean, it's still cold. It's still snowy, muddy. Definitely where they would be taking me, it would be very cold. It's still snowy, muddy. Definitely where they would be taking me there, it would be very cold, be very, very cold. It would be very muddy. There probably would still be snow on the ground where they were going to be taking me. And so they needed to get supplies. And of course that was not actually paying for it. It was just straight up stealing it. So we went into Walmart and I remember him grabbing like sturdier hiking boots and like some. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I want to say they grabbed.

They didn't. I don't think they grabbed blankets. He had some things he wanted to grab. I remember the hiking boots. I want to say he wanted to grab sleeping bags, but I don't know if he actually did. And then. He's stealing all this stuff? Yeah.

Yeah. Stealing it. And then. And did he work at all during those nine months? How did they get money? He either stole what he wanted or he would just go out and panhandle he called it ministering because the true disciples of christ would recognize him for the prophet and the davidic king that he was and they would provide for him so he called it ministering but

it was just it was panhandling there was a shade of craziness in there. Just saying. Maybe, but he wasn't, he wasn't dumb. Like he was smart. Like you have, you would have to be to pull this off. They're not mutually exclusive. Anyway. He was crazy. And he was brilliant.

But he was still crazy. Yes. And almost half the world followed him. Yeah. So we would say both of these people were evil. Yes. Yeah. I don't care how you feel.

I just want to get my needs met. Yes. I don't care how you feel. I just want to get my needs met. Yes. I don't care how you feel. You are there to serve me. Yes. Right. Anyways, you're in Walmart. We're in Walmart.

And then we walked out of the Walmart to the sidewalk along the side of the road. And we started walking towards, well, towards the heart of downtown Salt Lake. So North upstate street. And I saw a police car like approaching us, but it felt like he was going pretty fast. So I thought, Oh, like what, what are they doing? They must be going to like answer a call because it seemed like they were, I just didn't think they were going to stop at us. But then there was a police car that pulled up. And then, I don't know, another one, another one. And there were just a lot, felt like there were a lot of police officers all of a sudden approaching us. And like questioning my captors and questioning me.

And I mean, I wasn't separated from my captors immediately. Like I was like, I had a captor on either side of me physically touching me. Um, so I, I did not feel like I could say who I was. I mean, there was nine months of, of, of punishment, of punishment, exactly. Of threats and abuse. And I knew what my captors were capable of. I didn't know. Like, I'd never interacted with a police officer. Like, I didn't know if they could actually protect me. Like, I didn't know if they'd actually believe me.

Like, I'm a kid. Why would the police officers believe a teenager? Maybe the people who are the age group that you would distrust the most, like, why would they believe me over these two adults who were claiming to be, I mean, they obviously weren't sitting there being like, I'm the Davidic king and I'm the prophet that's, you know, predicting the end of the world. They didn't say that. They knew that sounded crazy. So they didn't say that.

They just said that they were ministers for Christ, trying to invite people to come unto him. And that's what they did. And so, like, there was a fear of not being believed. There was a fear that even if I, I mean, if I said who I was, that I would be punished for it later, that maybe I wouldn't supposed to, or that it would make this situation worse. Like maybe somebody else would get hurt or like the police officers wouldn't actually intervene. Like, I just, I just didn't know. So how long is this interaction? I think. From the time the police came until the time you said you're Elizabeth Smart.

Like 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe. And I mean, the police, they weren't gentle. They were quite abrasive. They were quite aggressive in their questioning. In this interaction where there's all three of you? Yes. They were aggressive with all three of us. When they did finally separate me from my captors,

they were once again quite aggressive with me even, which like scared me even more. Well, how crazy is that? No, I'm trying to understand why, at what point did they realize you were who they thought um i think they because that's the reason you got all those police officers at once is somebody said they thought they saw yes i think they had multiple people call in about the three of us it was the same um and it was, I mean, my, the investigation by this point, my little sister, she had finally come forward and said, I think I know who kidnapped her. It's this guy. He came and did

some yard work. I think he's the one that kidnapped her, which is quite interesting. Cause from my understanding from when my parents have told me about it was that when she said that the police didn't really want to believe her. They were stuck on it being this other guy who had had a brain aneurysm and died in prison. They thought it was him. And so they didn't really want to believe my sister. And my dad was like, she was the only one that saw,

that was in that room that night that saw this person. And you don't want to believe her like she is the only one that could possibly give any direction in this case so how traumatic for her yes right one to see it happen and then two did not be believed and so. And so my dad like insisted on having a police sketch artist, like try to sketch him. And so my dad and I think two of my brothers did like composite drawings. And then my dad was friends with John Walsh from America's Most Wanted back then. And they were in pretty good communication. And my dad had shared with John about my sister and what she remembered and then this drawing.

And then John Walsh went on Larry King Live and spilled the beans, basically. Said there was someone else that Mary Catherine remembered, else. And he had like an image of the composite drawing and he shared it on Larry King live, which led to Brian Mitchell's siblings coming forward with an actual picture of him and being saying like this, that's, that's our brother. And yes, like there have been confirmed sightings that he's not just with his wife, but there's a younger, a younger girl with him as well. And so then coming back into Utah, people were on the lookout for him specifically. And so then when they, when these people are calling in and saying, I just saw Brian Mitchell, but like, it was just, everyone thought that I was the young girl with him, which of course I was. So the police had multiple reports of, of people seeing us.

And so when you said they were aggressive with you, what were they saying to you? I mean, it was just like their whole attitude and like the whole, I mean, it was the tone of their voice. It was like their stance. It wasn't like, hey, are you okay? Like, we're here to help you. It was like, who are you? What are you doing?

Like, where are you going? Where have you been? Like, it was just like very like, like startling and shocking and like, just like very, like, they were just very, I don't know. It felt like I was being scared of them. I mean, I remember being, I was scared of my captors, but I was also scared of them. And I knew what my captors were like. I didn't know what they were like. And then they handcuffed you, right?

And then they handcuffed me. Put you in the police car. Yeah. Took you to the station and at what point did you feel relieved it wasn't until i mean even on the way there i remember thinking if they thought i was innocent wouldn't they just take me home or wouldn't they like let me call my dad like or my mom like my parents why were they not letting me talk to them? And they brought me to the station.

And it wasn't until my dad actually showed up in the station and he was hugging me that I was like, it's going to be okay. Like, I think I still might be in trouble, but my dad's here and it's going to be okay. Wow. So trauma even in rescue. Yeah. Wow. I have so many more questions. So depression during the kidnap, but not afterwards. That's really interesting. But five years ago, unexplained attacks, deja vu, dizziness occurred while you were pregnant once or twice without being pregnant. Tell me about that. I mean, I don't like, I've never, I've never had anything. I mean, people ask me all the time about PTSD.

And like, sometimes like I almost feel like, like sometimes I'm like, am I wrong? Like, have I repressed it somewhere? Like, I don't feel like I have. It sounds like you remember it. I feel fine like um so I mean I've never had nightmares nightmares or like flashbacks or attacks or things like that I mean like there are sometimes like situations where I'm just like I don't like this or I don't feel comfortable with this but I wouldn't say it's like stopped me from

doing whatever it was I needed to do. Um, but yeah, uh, I noticed it when I was pregnant with my second child, uh, my son, like, and they were just like small. They weren't, they weren't big and it didn't happen a lot, but it would just be like a feeling. It would be, it would be like deja vu. Um, but it would be like a deja vu of like bad. Like it just, I don't, I don't even really know how to describe it. Like it felt like deja vu, but it wasn't, it felt, it didn't feel good. It felt bad. Um, and usually when it would happen, like if I was like driving the car, I would just pull over cause it would pass pretty quickly. I mean, it didn't, it wasn't prolonged or anything. A couple minutes. Yeah. If that, if a minute, maybe, I mean,

maybe a minute and a half, it wasn't long. Um, and then after I had him, um, like I didn't experience them again until I had my daughter, my youngest daughter. And, um, like they like got a bit more intense until I was probably, I don't know, I was probably like seven or eight months pregnant. And I remember like I had gotten up that morning and, um, I had gotten my, my oldest, like ready for her little preschool that she went to. And then like, I had gotten, I went to go get in the shower and like my, I think my son was like taking a nap or he was like, we had a nanny and he was with the nanny

and I went to go get in the shower. And then I remember being in the shower and I could just like feel it like coming on. And I was just like, okay, like I'm going to go get out of the shower and I'm just going to go lay down in bed and it'll pass and we'll be fine. And I don't actually remember getting out of the shower. I don't remember like wrapping up in a robe or like putting a towel on my hair. I don't remember making it into my bed, but I remember waking up in my bed and not knowing really how I'd gotten there, not knowing where my two other children were at, not even really being able to articulate my speech, which like, I've never not been able to do that. I've never like lost my power of speech before. Um, and I remember calling my husband, uh, in the UK and like, he was like asking me what was wrong, but I just like felt like I couldn't even,

I don't know. I just felt like I couldn't strongly speak. And so, I mean, he was in a panic. He's like, I'm getting on the next flight. He called up my mom and told her to come get me and take me to the hospital. And she did. And I mean, by the time I got to the hospital, even like, it was not even the hospital, first of all. It was just like the clinic, maybe 10 minutes away. By the time I got to the clinic, I was fine. But they're like, oh, you're pregnant. Oh, you had something in your brain?

Go on. We're going to take you down to the university of Utah hospital down in Salt Lake. And, you know, we're going to check you out there. And I mean, I was, I was fine. Like they checked me out. They just came back and they're like, oh, have you been hit in the head? Like, have you like paid, played, um, like contact sports or anything i was like no and they're like oh you just we can't find anything wrong but you just have i think they said it was like nine or ten scars on my brain and they're like that's not typically consistent with people your age and uh that was it well that's important you, you don't get that from playing the harp.

No, they're like, we usually see this in like NFL football players or like someone who's lived a very long, lengthy life. Your brain doesn't look anything like my football players. Lengthy life. And they're like, oh. That is interesting, though. So what's happened with the rage? The rage? The rage.

Like rage against what happened to me? Yeah. Where did that go? I don't think I'm like a very angry person. No, you're not an angry person. You're a lovely person. Um, I like. Like there's nothing. That's got to make you furious.

But like, there's nothing that I can do. Like, like I'm not a violent person. So even if someone put a gun in my hand and was like, here's your shot, shoot him dead, zero consequences. Like, I don't actually think, unless my kids' lives were on the line, then I probably could pull the trigger. But I don't think I could actually pull the trigger for me because I'm alive and like, I have a good life. Did you testify at the trial?

I did. Yeah. How was that? It was hard. It was hard. I mean, I didn't speak about what happened to me for years. It wasn't until the trial that I felt like everything really came out. And you really didn't get therapy for this, did you? No. So I read you went three times. Yeah.

Yeah. And that was not for the, that was for something else. That was for something else. So afterwards your folks didn't go, she should see somebody. They did. They did. They did. They were worried, but I didn't know what therapy was at the time. Like the day after I was rescued, I was brought to a children's justice center.

And I didn't really know why I was there. I just knew I didn't have a choice in it, which I was not happy about. And I was not happy about. And, um, I was brought in there. I mean, kind of from the get go, I felt, well, I was upset from the get go. Cause I didn't want to go there to begin with. And I felt forced to go in there. And then when I got there, I mean, they, like the people that ran the place, I know they were trying to be kind. Like I know they were trying to be like compassionate and everything and like trying to like make it

an easier experience. But to me, it felt a little bit demeaning because like they brought me in and they opened this door and it was full of like stuffed animals to this, this room was full of stuffed animals. And they're like, you can choose any stuffed animal you want. You might want to hold one, um, you know, while, while you're in this room. And I just remember being like, you can choose any stuffed animal you want. You might want to hold one, you know, while you're in this room. And I just remember being like, no, I did not have a stuffed animal to hold during my captivity. Like, what the hell do you think I want one now for? Like, no, I don't.

I'm, I survived without a stuffed animal. I will be just fine. If I can survive that, I can survive anything. I don't need a stuffed animal, I will be just fine. If I can survive that, I can survive anything. I don't need a stuffed animal. So I felt a little bit frustrated, angry over that. And then I was brought into a room and I was left alone in there with these two men, which I was scared of men. After what had happened, I was scared of men. And they were clearly religious, like they had, like, you could just, some of the things they wore indicated they were religious men. And that was uncomfortable. After.

Bit of a trigger. Yeah. And then they like they wanted they were asking me very detailed questions and they wanted me to give detailed answers. But they were introduced to me as psychiatrists. And once again, I didn't really know why I was there. So because they came with the title of psychiatrist, I thought that that was similar to therapy when really they were interviewing me because my parents were told that if they did, they could stand as proxy for me in a trial. Of course that didn't happen, but that was my first interaction and experience with psychiatrists. And so at that

point I was just like, no. And, and there was another part of me that was just like, I don't want to talk about what happened to me. Like, it would have been nice to have someone to talk to me, with me, while it was going on. But I'm past it. Like, I survived the hard part. Like, why would I want to talk more about it? I've already survived it. Like, you're not, like, patting me on the back and saying you're going to get through this. I'm through it.

So, it was just like a lack of education and understanding of what therapy was. And then that experience of me thinking, oh, my gosh, this is what it is. And being like, nope, never. No, thank you. But you do saunas and ice plunges. I do. And you're training for a marathon. I do. That seems're training for a marathon. I do.

That seems hard. It is. But then when I'm running, I tell myself, listen, you can survive anything. You do hard things all the time. A marathon is four hours, three and a half hours. You can survive that. So as I was reading your history, I pulled out some things that really, to me, represented post-traumatic growth.

Because what's going on in my head is you're incredibly bright. You're incredibly strong. You're able to read this situation and survive. And it's like, why? And we'll look at your brain in a little bit because I think your brain has something to do with it. So as I was reading your history, this part, stuck out, kidnapped, held captive, raped, abused, rescued after nine months ultimately pointed her down her path of her current career right you took the trauma

and turned it into something helpful useful her life changed dramatically after being rescued, learning to listen to her gut more, helping her be more compassionate and more patient with people. Learn to recognize how not everyone can easily articulate exactly what's going on or what they're feeling. That's lovely. Affected you in positive and negative ways. And you feel that people are not talking about the difference between rape versus consensual sex, which is why you started the foundation. Can you talk about the foundation for a bit? Um, I mean, yeah, I, I feel like there's just so much, um, there's just such a lack of education. I mean, I've met so many victims who don't even recognize, like they, I feel like they show all of the behaviors of being a victim, but they don't realize that what happened to them was actually rape or was actually a crime. I mean, because it

came from a husband or it came from a boyfriend or it came from someone they knew and trusted. Um, and so they never used the word rape. Um, and I feel like, I just feel like there's like a, there's a hole in education. There's a big hole in education. Um, and so I, I don't want what happened to me to happen to other people. And I've heard too many people. I mean, I speak a lot, um, and I share my story a lot. Um, and I share my story a lot. And whenever there's an opportunity to mix and mingle with the crowds afterwards, I always have someone come up to me and disclose to me. I always have someone say, I've never told anyone this before, but the same thing that happened to you happened to me or people compare their trauma. They'll be like, oh, something similar happened, but nothing as extreme. And like all of these things, like, I just, like, I don't think you'd probably be better at best to answer this question. So maybe I'll just turn it back on you, but I don't think you can actually

compare trauma because I think we're all different. And I think, you know, what might be big for someone might not be big for someone else. I mean, like my parents divorced about five years ago, four years ago. And that was really, really hard. But other people I know who've gone through divorces or like their parents have gone through divorces, they're like, oh yeah, they fought all the time. It was a relief. Like I was so happy when they got divorced. For me, like that, that was hard. And so I'm not saying like my kidnapping was easy. It wasn't easy, but I'm just saying like, you just can't compare trauma. It's not, there's not a scale or a balance. And it's often the brain you bring into the trauma that determines the brain you have when you come out.

So I wrote my first professional paper in 1982. It's called Post-Vietnam Stress Disorder, a metaphor for current and past life events. And I learned very early in my career, it's what you bring into the trauma that often determines what happens after it and you brought into the trauma stability and love and connection if you had been from a broken home before the trauma with people who didn't like each other, you probably would have had a much harder time during and after. That your parents' early stability probably was protective for you. And there's something in that early development that helped you be really smart because you figured out how to work to evil deranged people right i mean you're talking about maybe they they're not like formally psychotic schizophrenic whatever but they're deranged. Right. I always think of people in these four big circles. I think about their brains. I'll show

you yours in just a second. Their minds, the social circle and the spiritual circle. So whenever I evaluate someone, I'm always thinking about these things going on in their lives. I always say, if you want to keep your brain healthy or rescue it, we have to prevent or treat the 11 major risk factors. I'll put this in your packet. I don't want to go over it now. I want to get to your brain. Oh, wait.

Let me just see if there's anything important. Blood flow. You have great blood flow. You're young. Have you had lab work done recently? Not recently, no. So I should order some just as like i i think it's important every year or so to know your vitamin d level you live in utah you're not outside a lot of the air um and low vitamin d

is associated with all sorts of bad things so um sister with, you were delivered by forceps. You were in a car accident when you were 16 or 17. Tell me about that. I mean, it was small. Like I didn't even, I was just, I had my blinker on to turn into a gas station to fill up. And yeah, I was just, I was rear ended. It wasn't like a bad crash or anything. Like you used to go on five miles an hour or 20 miles an hour?

Not 20 miles. I mean, it was just like a sudden push. I mean, like I wasn't hurt. And you ski, right? Yeah. You ever whacked your head when you skied? No. Because there is this question in my head,

why does your brain look like an NFL player? It's like, why why was it the chronic stress from the kidnapping consumption during the kidnapping? It was not excessive just because when, I mean, he had to go a long ways. It was a very difficult, it was a very difficult trail to hike.

It was a very difficult location to get to and to go all the way down into the city. And then he couldn't steal the alcohol. He had to buy the alcohol and then he had to get all the way back up. I mean, if he left in the morning, he wouldn't be back until one or two AM. Yeah. So, I mean, the next day. So, I mean, it was, it was hard. It was really hard. And so he usually wanted most of it for himself, but, um, when he would bring it back, usually like the first night or the next day that he had alcohol, that's when he would have me drink. And I mean, initially, like it was like terrible. Like I was just like, I, like, I, I was never going to drink. Like, that's like against like what I believe in. That's like against like, like my personal, like just like what I expect of myself. Um, but then, I mean,

it did eventually get to a point where I also was like, this is a pretty bad situation. This is a really bad situation. Like if there's something to make it even a little bit less bad or like maybe help me not feel everything quite as much, then that's okay. You could understand it. Yeah. But I mean, it was never- Was there one type of alcohol you liked more than another? That I like? No. No, I don't think I liked.

I mean, I feel like he brought back lots of different kind. I mean, he started off with red wine and then white wine. And I was like, this tastes like baby spit up. Um, and then, and then he started bringing back harder alcohol. Like, um, he brought in vodka, he brought back rum, he brought back randomly, um, like peppermint schnapps schnapps schnapps um i remember at one point he did give me rum that had been mixed with coke and i was like this is not quite as terrible i think probably because it was mixed in with coke but i wouldn't say that i was just like yum like i'd love some Okay. You're introvert in public.

So that's interesting because you're in the public eye and you speak. I mean, I would say it's a learned skill. I'm sorry? I would say it's a learned skill. I'm sorry? I would say it's a learned skill. Like I needed to learn how to speak and small talk and all that comes with it. But do I prefer that? No. I prefer.

It wears you out a little bit. I prefer being at home. Your PHQ-9 is this scale of depression. It's from 1 to 27. Yours is 1. So you're not depressed. Your ACE score, adverse childhood experiences, besides the kidnapping, is 1. And your HOPE score, which is great. We actually have three papers. We had one come out today on adverse childhood experiences and how that changes your brain. We have a new paper

coming out on HOPE. And your HOPE score was great. It was 58. It was really good. Why people come to see me is because we look at their brains. And we do a study called SPECT, and SPECT looks at blood flow and activity, looks at how your brain works.

And it basically shows us three things. Good activity, too little, or too much. And then my job is to balance it. And in a healthy scan, it should just be full, even, and symmetrical. Color doesn't matter, it's the shape. And so here we're looking up from the bottom. This is the front, that's the back. Here we're looking down from the top and just full, even, and symmetrical. This one's actually going to matter a little bit more for us. Here, blue is average activity.

Red is the top 15%. White is the top 8%. So white's like super active parts of the brain. Overall, you have a lot of great activity. Your frontal lobe, so this is probably the most important part of the human brain. Focus, forethought, judgment, impulse control, organization, planning, empathy, reading, social cues, reading, having a goal, I want to survive, and then organizing what you do in order to make that happen. That's this part. If this part would have been low, odds are you probably wouldn't have survived. The one part that could be a bit better, these are your temporal lobes, this one's good,

this one looked like it got hurt. So it's sort of like, it looks like at some point you got whacked and it sort of hurt your temporal lobes. Now it's not dead. It's just sleepy and we can make it better. That's sort of the exciting thing about my work is we can see what's going on with your brain and then make it better. That's sort of the exciting thing about my work. We can see what's going on with your brain and then make it better. And I have these two packets, multiple vitamin, fish oil, brain boost. I know you're already taking fish oil. Guarantee mine's better. We studied it in these two packets. It is 1,440 milligrams of omega-3 fatty acids and just

help and then there's a brain boost that works in six different ways that helps you and so yes it could be you've seen so many people and your brain just doesn't care anymore. Or it could be it's a little sleepy here and we want to fatten it up. So you're just a bit sharper. Make sense? Okay. This is the area at some point got wet. And maybe it was the car accident.

Your brain is the consistency of soft butter, tofu, custard, somewhere between egg whites and jello. And it's housed in a really hard skull that, if you look inside, has sharp bony ridges. And it's just those minor concussions can cause major problems. But we have, as a team, lots of experience doing follow-up scans. If you came back four months later, say you took the two packets a day, your brain could look like this. It would just get a whole bunch healthier.

Oh. So you are not stuck with what you have. We can make it better. And I would suggest we do that. Okay, let's do it. Now, if you leave here and you go, You know. I agree with the Washington Post.

Dr. Amon's really crazy. And you don't do anything. Over time, your brain could look like that. And so let's not. No. And yeah. So here today. And hopefully here next year.

And it starts by loving your brain, right? Nobody cares about their brain because you can't see it. You can see the wrinkles in your skin or the fat around your belly. Do something when you're unhappy with those. But the brain is the most important organ in our body. And it would even be good to teach your kids to love their brain. And so you just play a game with them. When my daughter Chloe was little, we called it Chloe's Game. And it's like, is this good for your brain or bad for it?

So if I'd say blueberries, she'd go, are they organic? I'm like, of course. She goes, God's candy. If I said avocados, she'd go, God's butter. If I said talking back to your redheaded mother, she'd go, very bad. Okay. So now that we have this, let's look at the active view. Because this is where we can do something about it. So remember, blue is average. Red is the top 15%. White is the top 8%, which should be here in your cerebellum. And your cerebellum, despite running a lot, is sleepy.

So I want you to do coordination exercises because that will start to activate. Running really isn't a coordination exercise. It's just like one foot after the other, sort of straight. So table tennis, my favorite sport. Tennis, pickleball, something like that will help activate this, and that will help. Your emotional brain's pretty busy. When I talk about PTSD, I always talk about the diamond pattern in the brain, and you sort of have it. If you look at it, it sort of looks like a diamond. Here, you like things a certain way. Not terribly anxious. And this can impact your mood. Does everyone have a diamond pattern?

Because I feel like to some degrees, everyone experiences some kind of trauma in their life. Yeah, but not everybody has a diamond. A lot of people have the diamond. But you didn't get out of my family without some trauma. I think the most important thing after listening to you, coordination exercises and some simple supplements. Whatever you're doing, it's working because you're awesome that's it for me like coordination exercises and supplements so my impression of you

post-traumatic growth i mean i think you're awesome you're doing great things in the world if you get any more of those attacks i I want to know about it. Okay. Because I'm really curious what those are. And you should send me your MRI so I can compare it to your SPECT scan. We can actually overlay them and analyze them together. How do I go about getting that? Your brain does not. All you do is have to ask the hospital.

Oh, okay. Say, please send my MRI on a disc to Dr. Raymond. Okay. And Natalie will give you our address. And you've never done EMDR. No. I'm a huge fan. I've actually had two sessions today.

I love it so much. But you're not symptomatic, so I don't think I would do that. Okay. Yeah. But if there becomes a time when you start having symptoms, don't be shy and call me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Coordination exercises, supplements, labs. Are you excited to optimize your brain and help the brains of those you love? Do you want to prevent or treat memory problems, anxiety or depression? Do you want to be happier? That's why I created Amen University, to take what I've learned over the last 45 years and help you have a better brain, a better mind, and a better body. You can take courses like our 30-Day Happiness Challenge, which was shown in research to increase happiness by 32% in just 30 days, or Memory Rescue, or Overcoming Anxiety, Depression, Trauma, or overcoming anxiety, depression, trauma, and grief, or healing ADD at home in 30 days and much more. We also have professional courses and courses for kids, including Brain

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