Change Your Brain Every Day - How to Create Boundaries That Build Relationship with Dr John Townsend

Episode Date: January 12, 2017

Successful relationships are built on mutual respect of another person's boundaries and limitations. When someone encroaches another person's boundaries, it means no less than trouble.  One of the most simple way of creating boundaries for yourself is by practicing a graceful way of saying no when you feel that it's against your principle, your health, or your well being. Unfortunately, many fall into becoming men pleasers which simply means giving up on someone's boundaries.  Today's episode, we'll dig deeper into this topic and we'll have Dr. John Townsend, New York Times bestselling author, business consultant, leadership coach, psychologist, and author of Boundaries: When to Say Yes, When to Say No-To Take Control of Your Life.  

Hi, I'm Donnie Osmond, and welcome to The Brain Warrior's Way, hosted by my friends Daniel and Tana Amon. Now, in this podcast, you're going to learn that the war for your health is one between your ears. That's right. If you're ready to be sharper and have better memory, mood, energy, and focus, well then stay with us. Here are Daniel and Tana Amon.

Hey, everybody. Welcome back. We are so excited to have Dr. John Townsend back with us. And today we're going to talk about probably, I think this is your biggest book and what you're known for worldwide before we actually met personally. This was one of the most important books that I had read. How did you and Henry Cloud come up with this idea and talk to us about the meaning of it? Well, at the time we wrote it, Henry and I co-founded and ran a psychiatric health hospital system. We had on the West Coast, we had about six psychiatric inpatient clinics and about 30 outpatient clinics. Had about 100 doctors working with us. And we found out that a lot of people who came in either depressed or with anxiety disorders or bad relationship problems or addictions.

Their problem was that they were burnt out and guilt-ridden, and they were doing way too much for other people. They were what you call people pleasers. And so we had a lot of techniques and principles to give them, and lo and behold, they got well. And we started realizing that a lot of people understand that you're supposed to be nice and loving and give, and we have a society of givers. Everybody wants to give and help and sacrifice.

But nobody was teaching these people that you've got to say no sometimes. You've got to say no to toxic people. You've got to say no to addicts in your life. You've also got to say no to good things because, you know, if you're a smart person and you're pretty successful, everybody in the world wants you to be on their board and be on their committees, and that can bring you out too. So you've got to say no notice some good things and then notice

some toxic things. We just started training them to know, and they got around. So we had a lot of research going on. We realized nobody knows this stuff. So that's when the book came out, based on the research we did in Austin. This book was really special to me. When was the book written, John? Gosh, 92 or three, something like that. Yeah, that's what I thought. Next year's going to be his 25th anniversary, so it's been a while. Yeah, so it's special to me. I came out of a fairly toxic relationship at one point, and it was a therapist probably 16, 17 years ago that had me read it.

And I didn't know you at all back then, but it was a really good book. So, and still highly relevant. So anybody struggling with these issues, it's a very relevant book. Yeah. A lot of people come up and say, I don't know if I'd even be on the planet if I hadn't heard this book because I didn't know I could say no. I didn't know I could own my life. I didn't know I didn't have any power and I didn't have any permission. And what you said, you guys said in the book, you and Henry was, you can say no. And guess what? You're still a nice person. Right. You can say no. Thank you. You can say no. Thank you. Because everybody thought, well, I'll be a lover and a giver.

And then I'll turn into a monster and say no. No, no, no, no. You can be a lover and a giver and you can say no at the same time. Right. Tony Blair, the former prime minister of England, when he was interviewed, said the number one job of a leader is to say no, which I thought was really interesting. Yes. But it makes people feel bad. I treat a lot of people who have ADD. And because they often lack forethought is they say yes when it doesn't really fit the goals they have for

their life. And so I have them practice, I have to think about that. So I actually have them practice it over and over. When someone asks them to do something, stop and just say, well, I have to think about that. You're building in the thinking that they don't have, right? That they don't have because they have lower frontal lobe function, which is the break in your brain that is involved with forethought. So it stops you from saying your first thought. And if you're a people pleaser, your first thought is yes.

So it's because of Dr. Townsend's book that I always say no. I got really good at it because he says I say no all the time. Not all the time. He's like, the first word out of your mouth is no. There's no blame. I learned to not blame, too. I take responsibility for my no. So let's get really practical.

What are the situations that people get themselves into the most trouble lacking boundaries? There are probably three. One is in family, because especially if you're a parent, you know, kids exist to drain us, right? And so a kid thinks you exist on the earth to say yes to everything, to fun and soccer games and Disney and more food and money and cars and everything. And your job is to say, I'm not training you right

for reality by saying yes all the time. So that once is to say, I'm not training you right for reality by saying yes all the time. So the second is in our marriage. And because in great marriages, people feel comfortable saying, I've got to say no, I don't want to go to eat Chinese tonight. I'd rather go eat Italian tonight.

Or I don't want to go there on vacation. Or I don't want to spend the money here. We've got to change our money. And really successful couples who've studied this, I don't want to go there on vacation or I don't want to spend the money here. We've got to change our money. And really successful couples who've studied this, a yes doesn't break the alliance and another doesn't break the alliance. You can disagree and still be in love. And the third is in business and work. Because what we find out is that when in the business world, most of my work is with leaders,

that the leader, like you talked about, Tony Blair, who says yes all the time because he or she wants to be loved and liked and admired, they end up getting less respect. And there's a good balance of those and yeses. Guess what happens? Respect goes up and then performance and metrics go up. So those are the three arenas. That's awesome. My self-esteem just went way up. I don't feel bad for saying no anymore.

All right. So if you have been a people pleaser and you're overwhelmed and stressed because you brought a lot on yourself, what are some practical things people can do to get control over their life? Well, you have to understand the origins of people pleasing. It comes from people, right? It's a relational thing. I mean, we got trained to say yes to all our teachers or coaches or spiritual directors or parents or whatever. And like you said, we're not using the frontal lobe anymore.

It's just kind of an impulse, yes, yes, yes, because we're afraid of being rejected or we're afraid of being not loved and We don't hurt people's feelings. So the very first thing I do when I'm working with somebody at this, I said, give me three people in your life that don't mind you saying no. And they say, I don't have any. I say, well, we'll go to the Yellow Pages. We'll find somebody. And you talk to those people and say, I'm getting ready to say no to my kid who's been bugging me to give him a smartphone. They're 11 years old.

I feel bad because all their neighbor kids have a smartphone. What can I do? And you say to that person, I need to call you right before I have that call with my kid and right after I have that talk with my kid. And that first call is a one-minute call. And they say, you're doing the right thing. You're great. You rock. You can say no. And they empower them. And then the kid goes upside down and says, you're a horrible parent. They're going to keep on just meaning it. You call that person later and say, oh, I say no. I said no.

Oh, it's awful. They go, no, you were great. You rocked as a parent. And you're rebuilding voice in your head through your neural synapses that say, that was a good thing. So you've got to be with people that care, and you've also got to practice it ahead of time so that all of a sudden you've got this cheering section in your head that says, that was a good thing. You're doing it. I like that a lot.

Yeah, that's excellent. What are appropriate boundaries or legitimate boundaries? And then when can you let it become a little bit looser? Yeah, let me give you kind of my matrix because people always ask that. The way they ask it is, how do I know if I'm really caring about somebody and supporting them or rescuing and enabling them? We know from the literature, caring and support are good things. We also need to be caring and supporting our friends and our family and people and our companies. And enabling and rescuing is bad.

Enabling and rescuing turns that person more dependent. It makes them more entitled. It basically regresses them to a lower state of existence. It makes them highly dependent. So where's the line? Because people who don't have boundaries kind of see them as the same thing. Well, when my 34-year-old son who lives in the basement asked me for some more money, gosh, I want to support him, so I gave him some more money so we could party some more.

Now, we would go, stop, stop. That's enabling and rescue, but I'm just supporting and loving. So I've come up with some ways that you understand the difference. The first one is, can that person do this for themselves? You know, if they say, can I person do this for themselves? You know, if they say, can I borrow your car? And you go, well, you've got a car, but you just haven't spent the money to fix yours. They can do it themselves. So that's your first matrix question is, am I just doing it because they want me to do it? Or do they actually have a need they can't do it themselves? Secondly, do I have the resources? Do I have the emotional resources? Do I have the financial resources? Do I have the

time resources? You know, I get asked to be on a lot of boards and I love, you know, service organizations around the world, but I don't have the resources to be on all of them. So I have to say no to a bunch because I got to do a good job of what I'm committed to. So I don't have the resources. The third is, how am I going to feel? Am I going to feel, gosh, I felt like I really helped my kid or I helped my adult kid. I helped my employee, helped my spouse by giving them my time, money, or energy. Or am I going to feel kind of resentful and kind of like bugged about it? Because your emotions tell you a lot. You're supposed to feel generous and happy, not resentful. If you're feeling some resentment, that's telling you something.

The fourth thing is, what is the result? What is the result of all this? Is the result that the person is now more responsible? You know, Tana, that's one of your favorite words, right? Mine too. Is the person more responsible and autonomous, or are they more dependent? So because if you give somebody something, they come back next week and say, that was great that you gave me that $50. Can I have another $50? Well, you're not creating a

responsible autotonic. So use those four questions to give you the matrix of when you need to say no. I like that a lot. That's very helpful. Do you have a story where you helped someone plant those principles in their life and it helped to transform them? I do. I've got, let me know, Peter and I have written, I think, seven boundaries books now. Boundaries in marriage, boundaries with your team, boundaries in dating, boundaries with your Labrador retriever. So, you know, we have so many stories that we know about or people have written to us.

And one that's just kind of, I think, sort of puts it all in place is one where somebody was working with a teen. And the teen was out of control, doing drugs, and, you know, I don't have to follow what you guys say. You guys are lame. Whatever. And so the parents just, you know, they took him to counseling. And the counselor was kind of mishy-mashy, like, well, just talk about what you feel. You know, counseling's got a lot to do with feelings.

But that's all they did was talk about the feelings. It had to be other things, like behaviors, besides feelings. And the kid was still out of control. And then finally, I sat down with him and I said, if you love your child, I'll evaluate him. And I told him, I went with the child in the room because it's back when I was doing a lot of clinical work. I said, if you love this guy, he needs to go away for about 30 days to a place I know. And certainly the kid freaked out because he couldn't serve and smoke with his friends for 30 days. That place I know. And oh, certainly the kid freaked out because he couldn't serve and smoke that with his friends for 30 days. That'd be awful. And, and the, but the parents kind of melted like we'd be bad parents and he'll miss us. And I said, yeah, he's supposed to miss you,

but I know a place that's helpful. And we sent him to a good place that, that deals with, with adolescents. He came back in 30 days and I remember he was 16 and a half. He was about seven and he came back and he sat down and he said, I just want to tell you, thank you. I found out that I, even in the acting out I was doing, I wasn't happy. And now I understand that life is not just about me. And I want to be a team player. And thanks for another chance, mom and dad. And it was like this very emotional moment where, you know got it he got it that boundaries were good and he found out that he could set

boundaries with his buddies and his girlfriend and all of a sudden all of a sudden i got better but i'll never forget that story that's amazing so what do people do with the guilt because that often drives behavior. They don't want to feel bad, so they give in, even though giving in makes them feel bad in the long run. There's a couple of things you can do with guilt. Guys, I call guilt the gift that keeps on giving. I like that. If you struggle with it, it's just, you know, it gets in the cells sometimes, I think.

And there's several things you can do to help you. The first is to realize that you should feel a little bit sad and a little bit discomfort when you say no. I mean, the goal is not to feel good about setting boundaries. If somebody told me, well, I wake up in the morning looking forward to disappointing people, I'd say, you need meds. Something's wrong with you, man. You know, nobody looks forward to confronting people. Nobody looks forward to disappointing people, but they can deal with the guilt. One's just about, this is not comfortable and I feel sad. That's very different than guilt, but there is discomfort.

And sometimes, you know, you have to be that disruptive element in your family or that disruptive element in your business that makes things work. So get out of the idea that the goal is to be happy about yourself. But the second one is to realize that guilt, the feeling of guilt itself says that you did something wrong. And so if you did something right, like tell your kid, you gotta get a job

or your grades gotta go up or tell your employee, you know, you're not making the calls, you're not making the numbers, you better do something about it. And you feel bad, just take yourself through the little exercise of, I did the right thing, but I feel bad. And that exercise itself, we call it the observing ego functions, as you guys know. The observing ego comes in and goes, wait a minute, look at this. You feel guilty, but you did a good thing. And all of a sudden, you start to feel better because the good thing is the reality, not the feeling. And then the third thing, I want to go back to when we first started this broadcast.

You've got to get people around you who help you internalize that they love your boundaries, that they support your boundaries. And, you know, when you first start this process, the first time you set a boundary, you're going to feel awful like you're the meanest person in the world. And then you call that supportive friend and say, OK, I just said no to my employer, my kid again. They go, I'm so proud of you. You did the right thing. And you build up this great chorus of people clapping for you and the guilt begins to dissipate. And ultimately, not only are you happier, but the people around you are happier because they have more responsibility, which is the ability to respond when we give in too much. We're actually creating the entitlement cure, which is your other book. So it makes perfect sense to me that boundaries and the entitlement cure really go together. Well, that's all the time we have for today. Thank you so much. His book is boundaries. He's got 30 books. Next time we're going to talk about boundaries for teenagers.

Stay with us. Thanks for listening to today's show. The Brain Warrior's Way. Why don't you head over to brainwarriorswaypodcast.com. That's brainwarriorswaypodcast.com, where Daniel and Tana have a gift for you just for subscribing to the show. And when you post your review on iTunes, you'll be entered into a drawing where you can win a VIP visit to one of the Amen Clinics. I'm Donnie Osmond, and I invite you to step up your brain game by joining us in the next episode.