Change Your Brain Every Day - The Neuroscience of the Lord's Prayer: How Jesus Rewires Your Brain | Brad Gray

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

What if the world's most famous prayer is also one of the most powerful tools for transforming your mind? In this conversation, bestselling author and pastor Brad Gray explores the surprising connection between the Lord's Prayer, neuroscience, and spiritual formation. Discover how Jesus' timeless words can reshape thought patterns, reduce anxiety, strengthen emotional resilience, and create lasting inner peace, not through positive thinking, but through intentional communion with God. Together, we unpack:   Why the Lord's Prayer is more than a prayer—it's a blueprint for renewing your mind. What modern neuroscience reveals about attention, habits, and brain rewiring. How ancient spiritual practices align with what researchers are discovering about neuroplasticity. The hidden depth behind each line of the prayer. Practical ways to experience greater peace, purpose, and freedom in everyday life.   Whether you're curious about faith, fascinated by neuroscience, or looking for practical tools to deepen your relationship with God, this episode offers a fresh perspective on one of Jesus' most profound teachings. If this conversation encouraged you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs hope today.   For clinical help: https://www.amenclinics.com/ Brad Gray: https://walkingthetext.com/

Nothing cripples the community of Christ faster than unforgiveness. We need to get really good at being able to say, I'm sorry, to forgive well when we wrong, when we've been wronged. When God is working through a people to bring restoration and wholeness in his world, what the evil one is going to attack is relationships. And it begins in the home. Brad Gray is a speaker, author, ordained minister, Bible teacher, and founder of walking the text. Known for bringing scripture to life through its historical and cultural context. God is not just watching us from a distance. This is a God who is constantly coming near to his people.

Talk about lead us not into temptation. Because it's tricky. It's tricky. In fact, even Pope Francis had the wording modified years ago because... Every day, you are making your brain better or you are making it worse. Stay with us to learn how you can change your brain for the better every day. One of the most important lessons I've learned after helping thousands of people is that when you support your brain, you often feel the difference in your life. I love hearing stories like this one. Happy Saffron Plus has given me the peace I've been looking for. I can't say enough about it. It has truly been a godsend.

Stories like that remind me why I'm so passionate about helping people care for their brains. Visit BrainMD.com and use code podcast 20 for 20% off. Better brain, better life. For two decades, Brad Gray's powerful teachings have impacted hundreds of thousands of people, including me, through a contextual approach to the Bible. Furthermore, his ability to teach complex ideas in easy to understand and creative ways has enabled him to reach audiences of all ages and background across the world. Brad serves as the Lord's Prayer Guide who sets the table and invites the audience in.

He has lived and studied in the Middle East and has been leading study trips to Israel and Turkey since 2010. Brad serves as the president and CEO of walking the text, creator of the sacred thread. A little bit on how we met. We have a program now in churches around the world. It's called the Amen Whole Four, where we're going after the Whole Four crisis, physical, mental, relational, spiritual. And we're very excited about it. in a week two, I talk about prayer and meditation. And I just got this idea one night to do the neuroscience of the Lord's Prayer.

Before you even knew each other or about each other. And then I did a podcast with Rich Wilkerson, South Florida. And we talked about it. And it went viral. It has like 3.5 million views. And then like the neuroscience of the Lord's Prayer and then a literary agent said, would you be interested in writing a book on that? And I'm like, all right, I have to study this.

And lo and behold, I met Brad Gray. I got introduced to his work, bringing heaven here. How the Lord's Prayer can change your life. and our world. And he also has a movie on Angel Studios and the Lord's Prayer. And now there's going to be a television series on it. And I'm like, oh, we should invite him on the podcast.

Yes. Thank you for coming from Nashville. From Nashville. You know, as funny is when you did that podcast, it did. I went viral. And I was scanning through Instagram and I came across it. And I was like, this is. is fascinating because I love neuroscience. I've done a lot of in the communication process around

the neuroscience of effective communication and even how Jesus tapped into every major, you know, teaching strategy that people are using today. And then I saw it in the next morning, I lead a men's Bible study in Middle Tennessee. And there was a gentleman there, our mutual friend, I have been named of Jason Pamer. He goes, did you see Dr. Haman's thing on the Lord? I said, I just saw it. And so it was just so timely for, us to be able to connect and now be in person having a conversation around the Lord's Prayer. Well, how fun. Yeah. So tell us how this started for you. Yeah. Actually, it didn't start with the intention of doing a film and a television series and a book. For me, I was literally just seven years ago

reading through the sermon on the Mount. And I got to the point where Jesus is talking about prayer. And right before he gives the Lord's prayer, he says, and when you pray, this then is how you should pray. And I just had a moment where I went, huh, I think he actually meant it. And it was like a moment where it was like, but wait a minute, like this is not something that I pray on a regular basis. Like many people, it's familiar. I memorized it growing up as a kid. And I just sat there and I thought, man, why is it that if Jesus said when you pray, this is how you should pray? Like he was giving us a framework that it hadn't been part of my regular rhythm. And I realized very quickly that what happened to me is what happens to most people

is that when you know something, you think you know it. Yeah. And you set it aside. And I just- It becomes routine. It does. And it's rope, you know, for many people. Yeah, it becomes like the wallpaper.

Right. You know, growing up Catholic and was an altar boy. And I must have said it thousands of times. and never really thought deeply about it, especially the part on forgiveness. And even after sort of the prayer's done, he goes back to forgive. To forgiveness.

And he's like, just in case, you didn't think I was serious. You missed this part. Yeah, exactly. So let's do it again. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Could you sort of walk us through it and then we'll have questions? Yeah, totally. Well, here's a thing for what we do and what has been part of my background and study is really understanding what was the original context of the Bible in general, but then every passage. So what's the historical, cultural design of it, literary background, all the things basically that the writers of the Bible assumed their audience knew and therefore did not include. And so my background is I got a business degree, did several years in the the sports business world have always been in sports and nutrition and, you know, just taking care of the body and then realized there was a deeper passion that I had, which was understanding the Bible.

And so I went to seminary, got a master's of divinity, and afterwards realized there was so much more I wanted to learn. So I moved to Israel, lived in Jerusalem, and that's where really that whole contextual aspect of the Bible really came alive for me. And so when we start working through the Lord's Prayer, there's a lot of just contextual. intellectual pieces that a lot of people just miss because we haven't been taught to think about, you know, an Eastern culture approach to literature or how Jesus was speaking in the midst of his context within the Roman Empire as a Jewish rabbi operating in the land of Israel at a very volatile time in Jewish history. And so that's really a big part of what we do is try to

unpack the Lord's Prayer in that way. So take, I mean, even just the very first phrase, our father. You know, for most of us, we hear the words, our father. And immediately, we're starting to think about God in connection to the relationship we have or lack of relationship with our earthly father. You know, it was immediately how we normally think. And everybody in our family has father issues. Yeah, I love daddy issues.

You know, and for some people, if you had a great father, this is not a hard hurdle. you can connect God very quickly. But for more than, you know, I would say the majority of people, they do have a lot of struggles with their earthly fathers. And immediately there's a barrier. But the good news is that when Jesus gave us the Lord's Prayer and he started with our Father, it was never intended for somebody else's example or lack thereof to be the primary means for how we understand God. Jesus's audience would have immediately thought about where does God first show up as Father in Scripture? And what does that tell us about the God that we are praying to? And what's so fascinating about this is that Jesus' audience wouldn't have first and foremost thought about their own dads.

They would have been running through the Scriptures and realizing that the very first time that God identifies himself as Father in Scripture is in the Exodus story. When God comes to Moses and Exodus 3 and 4 and they have the conversation around the burning bush, at the end of the conversation God says to Moses, I want you to go back to Egypt and I want you to speak to Pharaoh and I want you to tell him that Israel is my firstborn son and let my son go. Well, if God is talking about Israel being his son, then to the people of Israel, God is their father. And when you trace the theme of father in relationship to God from this moment in Exodus, it is for forward.

It's always about a God who is aware of our circumstances, who is listening for our cries for help, and that this is a God who makes promises to respond, and he makes good on those promises. So it's a beginning of a prayer to realize this is a God who knows me inside and out, loves me more than I can possibly imagine, and parents us as the perfect parent wanting the best for us and pulling us closer into his love to be able to experience who he is on his terms, not through somebody else. You know, I just got this crazy idea. I went to church yesterday,

and the pastor was talking about the scene in numbers where they send... Israelites into the land of Canaan and they come back completely freaked out. And it's like, no, we can't do this. Except for-I didn't trust. Except for Caleb and Joshua. And it just reminded me of when you're a teenager, you rebel. It's like, no, I'm not doing it your way. You don't know what you're talking about. You can't possibly be right. Rebellion in the Bible, but also rebellion in our own lives. And the, you know, the, you know, those of us that have had teenagers or have teenagers, no, it's just sort of natural. But our father is loaded.

You know, one of the questions I had, so the New Testament, the Gospels are written in Greek, but he didn't speak in Greek. And so how do we know our father is tender as opposed to formal? Or do we know? Right. No, that's a great. It's a great question. totally yeah so jesus did not speak in greek he didn't teach in greek um would have had probably some

working knowledge of greek as well as aramaic and hebrew and there's a big discussion as to was it biblical hebrew or was it aramaic that jesus spoke but either hebrew or aramaic the idea of father was always jesus pulling something from the hebrew scriptures which was his bible so he's never manufacturing something new he's drawing on something that's been carried through So because we know that the Old Testament is originally written in Hebrew, it's more so about how was Father understood in Jewish-Hebraic culture and how was that then understood through Jesus' audience for God as Father, both as He is throughout the entire Hebrew Scriptures, but the father figure within Jewish culture was the one that really managed and ran things.

This was the one that was not just in a position of power, but in a position of power for the purpose of service. And so part of what Jesus is doing is drawing out not only the importance of father in Jewish culture, but you do have all of these places beginning with the Exodus story where God identifies himself as a father. And in every context that we have God being identified as a father, it's talking about his tender, loving care to come to his people in their time of need. And it's also about belonging, attachment, and being part of a group. Exactly. So it's not my father. Right. It's our father. The whole prayer is in the plural, which is fascinating.

Because it does remind us, as you mentioned, it's not, you know, the discipleship journey is not to be ever done in isolation. You are always brought in to a family into a communal context where you realize you're a part of something much bigger than just yourself. But as you indicated, too, the father is the one who is making sure that the family is doing well, has what they need in order to flourish. Well, in my experience, I'm a psychiatrist by training. And if mom gets healthy, that's helpful. If dad gets healthy, it's way more helpful. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I've seen the results of a lot of those studies. And, you know, I don't remember how many years ago was done, but when it basically said, what is the number one indicator that kids who are growing up in a household of faith will continue in their faith? It's the relational warmth of the father. Interesting. What's the number one indicator.

Yeah, I've spoken to so many people who really struggle with that confusion over the relationship, including myself, the relationship with their dad. Right. And then why would I trust? Your dad was a character and a pastor. So he got sort of a double-wrecked. So it's our father who aren't in heaven, but heaven is plural. Yeah.

So I'm the big shocker about this. I had no idea until I didn't either. Watch the movie. Yeah, this was one because when I started to jump into the Lord's Prayer, just for the sake of my own soul, you know, seven years ago reading it and going, I think Jesus really meant it. This was one of the biggest shockers for me because I had always memorized it. When he first said that to me, I'm like, no, it doesn't.

Yes, I guess it does. And here's the thing is that in the Greek, which is, you know, what Matthew has recorded the Lord's Prayer in, you have our father who is in the heavens, is plural, holy be your name, your kingdom come, you will be done on earth as it is in heaven. That one is singular. I know, exactly. So here's what's so cool about this. And this is one of the most fantastic things what Jesus is doing is just like our father. He's drawing on the full scriptural tradition of how people understood the universe. This is really about cosmology. And of course, the ancients didn't have the research and the science and the understanding like we have today.

They didn't have the James Webb Telescope. They didn't have the Hubble. And so they just very basically said, well, you have like the heavens above and you have the earth beneath. And even how our Bible begins. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. So they split their world into what's up and what's below. And then what's up, what was called the heavens for them, they actually further subdivided it. And so you see this all throughout like Jewish literature. And there's different levels.

but the common understanding is that they broke the heavens up into three different levels or layers. So for them, level one was where the birds fly and the clouds roll by. Level two is where you have the sun and the moon and the stars, and they all are contained within this dome, or in Hebrew, the rakia from Genesis 1. And then they talked about that level three was the highest heavens, and that was beyond what can be seen. and that is where God's throne was. That's where God ruled and reigned the entire cosmos. And so what's so beautiful about Jesus beginning the prayer with, you know, our father who is in the

heavens is that he is reminding his audience that God sits above it all. He rules and reigns above everything. Nothing is outside of his purview. It's really about God's power. But one of the things that we see all throughout the scriptures is that God is not, just watching us from a distance, as the song goes. This is a God who is constantly coming near to his people. He comes and he meets with Abraham. He comes, he meets with Moses. He meets with the children of Israel on Mount Sinai. He comes in the tabernacle. He comes in the temple. He keeps coming. And so it's not just about a distant powerful God. This is a powerful God who is also as near to us as the air we breathe. And Jesus is just tapping into the cosmology of how they understood who really rules and reigns on high. And he says,

it's your father. Because if God is just a compassionate being, but he can't do anything about it, he's just compassionate. But if he's all powerful and present, intimately aware of our circumstances, well, that's an entirely different predisposition you have as you come into the prayer, to be reminded who am I actually praying to? And the fact that we can actually have a conversation with the living, ruling God of the universe is just supposed to bring us to a moment of awe and calm, because we can entrust ourselves to the one who knows everything and is powerful enough to do whatever he needs to do. Yeah, when you feel safe, you feel calm. Exactly.

Which was one of the things that I thought was just really fascinating about the neuroscience of the Lord's Prayer and what you were talking about is just even these phrases at multiple levels. Like, we come at it from a contextual perspective. How would Jesus' audience have understood it? But there's so many layers of truth, you know, that we discover through neuroscience and your research. Yeah, see, the more that I've learned about science, the more that it makes sense to me. Yes. Like, it's not the less that it makes sense to me.

The more that it makes sense to me. Yes. It's so interesting. Yeah. So, hallowed be thy name. I always struggled with I am who I am. You know, and it's like, who are you? It's like, I am who I am.

I'm like, okay, what does that mean? And you talk about that in the movie. Small changes can create meaningful results over time. One happy saffron plus customer shared, I've been taking it for about four months and feel less stressed, more calm, and better able to shift negative thoughts into positive ones. It's still a practice,

but this supplement has been a great support. That's exactly the kind of progress I love to see because lasting change happens one healthy choice at a time. Visit BrainMD.com and use code podcast 20 for 20% off. Talk about hallowed be thy name or holy be thy name. Yeah, yeah. Well, the word hallowed or holy in Hebrew, is the word kadoosh and it means to be set apart distinct or other than and the idea is is that

the name in the ancient world your name was a reflection of your identity it was a reflection of your essence which is why in exodus three when moses says to god well i'm going to go back and the elders of you know the hebrews are going to ask me what is your name what do i tell them you know and it's like god's saying my name is too big for you to handle. Because it's a name carried your essence, your identity. And what's so fascinating about the Yeh-ashir-Jahe, the Hebrew way of God responding to Moses, I am who I am, is it can also be translated as I will be who I will be, meaning, Moses, if you're trying to understand who I am and what I am like, watch what I'm about to do. And then a few chapters later, God says to Moses when everything is going sideways

and Moses is like, see, they're not listening. And God says to him, he goes, Moses, like, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, they never knew me by my intimate personal covenantal name. You're the first person that I gave it to because I want you to know that I am a God who makes good on my promise to rescue and redeem people in their time of need, which is why God gave his name at the Exodus story. And so the idea of God's name is it is holy, it is reverent, it is heavy, But the idea of holiness is how is God's name going to be seen as distinct?

How is it going to be represented well in the world? And this is what was always so confusing for me about this part of the Lord's prayer was, God, why am I praying that your name be holy? Like, isn't that something you do? Like, what role do I have to play in that? And then you start tracing that there was one aspect where God goes, I want my name to be understood well by both my people, but also by the nations. But the other aspect of it is that when God brings the Israelites to Mount Sinai,

and they arrive in Exodus 19, and God is rescued and redeemed them, nothing that they did, right? God did it for them. God then says, do you want to be in relationship with me? And when they say, yes, then what God does is he gives them his teachings, his instructions, we call it Torah, but sadly we translate it as law as if it's something that's wooden and impersonal and you better do this or else. The idea of Torah was God's teachings for life, teaching his people how to live in relationship with him, because they're

now working in unison and God goes, now you are going to bear my name in the world. So you're going to carry my name. And when the world sees you, they're going to know something about me. In fact, when God gives them his teachings and instructions, it's so they will know how to represent him well in the world. And when they don't, when they experience the exile, through the prophets, God says, you are being exiled because you profaned the sacredness of my holy name

by how you lived. And I will restore the greatness of my name despite what you have done. And so what it is all throughout Scripture, the idea is that followers of God bear his name, they represent him in the world. And when I pray holy be your name, I'm saying, God, I want people to understand who you are and what you are like. Oh, and I represent you as your chosen ambassador in the world and how I live matters. The things I do, the things I say, the way that I behave. So it's more than just saying holy or your life.

you. It's basically saying, I'm going to be a representative for you. Like, when I say this, it's not a burden, but it's a responsibility. Right. And you even go to the Ten Commandments. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. We grew up hearing, well, that just means don't use God's name as a swear word. It's way more than that. Right. The Hebrew is, is you shall not miscarry or misrepresent the name of the Lord your God. And even when it comes to in Numbers chapter six, when God gives Aaron and his sons the blessing that they're supposed to pronounce over the Israelites when they gather, the Lord bless you and keep you, the Lord make his face to shine upon you, be gracious to you, the Lord turn his face to you

and give you his peace. The very next line of that is God saying, and so you will put my name on my people. Meaning when they received that blessing, they were to be reminded, you go forth, bearing my name to the watching world, carry it well. And it also goes into the next verse, the kingdom come, thy will be done. If you're representing me, this is how you do it. Yeah.

And I've always curious, it's like, so how do you know God's will? Yeah, yeah. Well, and here's the thing that's so cool about that line, is Jesus in Matthew alone, talked about the kingdom more than 50 times. And one of the things that a lot of people have said is that for the last 2,000 years, we've done a great job teaching Jesus.

We've not always done a great job teaching his message, which was, repent for the kingdom of heaven has come near. And this now goes back to the in the heavens part, because when Jesus was talking about this, all throughout Scripture, God's space is always designated as heaven or the heavens, and human space is earth. In fact, there's a great passage from the psalmist in Psalm 115-16 that says the highest heavens belong to the Lord, but the earth he has given to humankind. And the

writer there is talking about realms, or you could say kingdom. Dallas Willard in his brilliant book, Divine Conspiracy, defined kingdom as the range of your effective will. Meaning it's the space that you have say over that what you do, impact those who are in that realm, if you will. So heaven is a realm where things are as God intends it to be. God's will, God's way happens in heaven, or the highest happens, but the earth is given to humankind, which means that Earth functions a little bit. It's a mess. But when you go back to Genesis 1 and 2, that's not how the story began. Heaven and Earth were overlapping. Now, God's space is always bigger than human space, but the idea in Genesis 1 and 2 before sin entered

in is that God's rule and reign, what God wanted to have that was true in heaven, was also true here on earth. But when Adam and Eve took from the tree in sin and death and pain and brokenness, chaos you could say entered the world, heaven and earth are being pulled apart, and now earth doesn't function like heaven. And all throughout the scriptures, the prophets and the writers are talking about how there would come a time where God would act with power, precedented since the fallback in Genesis 3 to get his good world back, to start dealing with all of the pain and the brokenness that was never intended to be part of God's creation. And in the Intertestamental period, that language was formalized, and it was called the kingdom

of heaven or the kingdom of God. So when Jesus shows up and says, it's now, he's basically saying, I am now come to unleash God's power of redemption into the world. but I'm also here to train others to carry this mission forward, which is why after he makes the proclamation, he goes down to the Sea of Galilee, he starts choosing disciples, and then he brings them to the Mount of Beatitudes and gives him his kingdom manifesto,

which includes the Lord's Prayer. It's the whole sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7, and this is where for me it was like the biggest unlock of the entire Lord's prayer was Jesus comes to prayer, and he says, and when you pray, this is how you should pray. Our Father who is in the heavens, in that realm where things are, God is you intend them to be.

Your will, your way. Your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So he's saying to restore it. To restore. And it's about now. Because I grew up in a tradition that said the whole reason why Jesus left there to come here was to take us from here to go there.

Right. The problem is everything Jesus is talking about is how do you get the goodness and power of heaven to take up residence here. Now, is there a place followers of Jesus go after they die to be with Jesus? Yes, but the whole stories about how God is bringing heaven here. How we restore. Why we did the title of the book that way. And so part of it is to now come all the way back to your observation and question about understanding God's will is there are universal truths that God has made profoundly clear all throughout scripture that we are called to do. And so that's part of it.

But then there's also an aspect of how is God uniquely communicating to each of us what he has for us to do in the world today. And that's part of a longer process of really discerning like, how am I wired? What am I uniquely gifted to do? Where is my passion at? I don't think there's just one thing that we are, you know, God is designed. us to do. No, but don't you think if we are in that daily communication, if we are, if we are following those guidelines, if we are doing those things that God called us to do, those will

become more clear. Yes, absolutely. We discover it in ourselves. Other people pointed out. And our discernment grow up. And exactly. It's like any, any maturing person. Yeah. We're working with the White House faith office on two big things. The decade. brain health and creating a national brain health revolution. And it's all around one question. Is what I'm doing now good for my brain or bad for it? And does it make the world better? And if you can say yes to that, I think, well, one, you're going to be healthier and

live longer, which is God's plan for you. And two, begin to figure out your purpose because it's not about you. It's about generations of you. Exactly. And why is the world a better place? Because I've been given the gift of breath and life. Right. Yeah.

Or writing. It's a very powerful question to be asking. So let's talk about bread. Yeah. They are daily bread. Bread was not the same. So interested in manna and gluten and yeah. But let's not go down that road.

Let's just talk about the prayer for now. So that's it. Give us today our daily bread. It's sustenance. It's needs. Yep, it is. It's not Wonderbread. Right, exactly.

Exactly. And you summarize it. When you go through the Bible, whenever you talk about bread, it's basically what do you need? Right. Right. And as you mentioned, for Jesus's audience, because when they heard daily bread, they would have actually thought of something from the past, something true in the present, and something they were anticipating in the future, which is so fascinating. The bread was the manna. For 40 years, God provided daily bread for the

Israelites in the form of manna when they were in the vulnerable circumstance of the desert, which was such an amazing time where God was teaching them to really cultivate trust in him. And as you mentioned earlier, what you guys experienced yesterday in your church service, when 10 of the 12 spies came back and said, we can't do it, you know, they're giants and we're like grasshoppers in their eyes. This was two and a half years out of Egypt. And they still weren't ready to trust God and to be the people that they needed to be for God to put them into the most highly trafficked area of the entire ancient world, which was the land of Canaan. I mean, you talk about location, location, location. You cannot find more prime location anywhere in the ancient world than the land of Canaan.

And so they end up spending an extra 36 and a half years in the desert, or 37 and a half years in the desert, as a result that God could take them out of Egypt, but God still needed to burn Egypt out of the people. And so it was during that time where God is giving them daily bread where they're learning to trust him. they're also learning what's essential because God's commandment to them is, I only want you to collect enough for that day. And the day before the Sabbath, you collect twice as much. And God said, if you collect more, if you hoard, you're going to get maggots. I never thought of it that way, that he was really trying to teach them. Trust. Not just trust.

I only want you to rely on what you need. Yes. I never thought of it that way. And it's like what's essential? And this is what so... Because it's not about all of the frivolous stuff. Exactly. I never thought about that.

This is why it comes later in the prayer. Because once you've been anchored into the rest of the prayer, when you've been anchored into who God is, why Jesus came for the kingdom, what role we get to play in this, because this is the other cool thing that Dallas Willard said was, if kingdom is the range of your effective will, like you have a kingdom and you have a kingdom and I have a kingdom, meaning we have these realms of influence where the decisions we make impact people who are part of our world. You know, this is true of your family. I have a family as well. My wife and I have four kids.

The decisions I make affect my family. The decisions I make affect, you know, the organization that I run, these film projects that we're doing. People take your guys' advice very seriously. Like there's a responsibility in stewardship. And the idea is that when we recognize, that we all have gifts and resources and talents and abilities. It's in a kingdom, every morning we're called to anchor our little K kingdom to God's kingdom. To make sure that we're aligning ourselves with what God's will and way is so that we not only

experience the goodness of God in our own lives, but we become conduits through which God works through us in order to impact people positively within our space. And so when you get to our daily bread, it's when you've been anchored in who God is, why Jesus came, what role we're called to play in the world today, then when it comes to daily bread, it's really a question of God, what do I need for the mission at hand? Don't give me things that I'm asking for that are going to actually distract me. It's not about our wants. It's about our needs. It's about our needs. And it's about trusting God with all of that. And they realized that that was true because God did that for 40 years.

That was something in the past. In the present, it was very aware of among the people. Rome is running the world. And actually in 123 BC, there was a politician in Rome who established what's called the Anona in Latin. It's a daily bread doll. And they were trying to make sure that as long as everybody had their daily bread, people who are not hungry don't revolt.

Right. The moment there's a shortage of food, all chaos breaks out. And so starting all the way back in 123 BC, Rome instituted this daily bread to ensure everybody in Rome had their needs met. Well, as the Roman Empire expands and becomes massive, whenever there was a shortage of grain in Italy, which was never conducive for growing grain. for grapes and wine, yes, but not grain and bread. Then the other provinces had to ship their grain to make sure that Rome had her daily bread,

so for Rome to have her daily bread, others would have to go without. And so there was this understanding that you are asking God for daily bread. There is a context right there for the Jewish people who are under the boot of the empire who realized, like, our daily bread could be taken away at a moment's notice. And so there was a present context where they realized we need to daily ask God for what we need, but also to realize that communally we provide for one another. And I may have more than I need, and a brother's sister has less than what they need. You know, this is not socialism.

It's how do you take care of one another in the midst of challenging circumstances, which is what the first century landscape was. And then what was so cool is the future aspect for them was, is that Moses led the very first Exodus. And you see this theme running throughout that they're looking for a second Moses who is going to lead a new Exodus. They keep talking every time they come together for Passover, it's anticipating, yes, God rescued and redeemed us from our slavery in Egypt,

but they're not enslaved any longer, but they're under the boot of the Roman Empire. and they believe that with the coming Messiah, he's going to fight a decisive battle against Rome. He's going to establish God's rule and reign in Jerusalem. The Jewish people are going to be vindicated, and everybody who is doing wrong in the world would be punished. You know, that was kind of, that's how it went.

And one of the things they talked about is that with the coming Messiah, he would reinstate bread to the people, which is why in John chapter 6, the religious leaders keep asking Jesus about the implications of the fact that he just fed 5,000 people with bread, and they're drawing Moses into the conversation because that was a part of the coming Messiah. And so the fascinating thing is that throughout the Lord's prayer, there's all of these themes that Jesus is drawn from. So you're not taking it into the entire context. You sort of miss that. You miss it. Yeah. Miss their anticipation.

Yeah. Any science around mana and how God did that, could have done it? I'm sure a lot of people have a lot of thoughts, but nothing. Mostly, this is just a miracle. Been able to stick. Yeah. I mean, there's a couple of places where it talks about, you know, what it looked like. It was like coriander seed that tasted like wafers and honey. Yeah, I've heard that.

But we have no idea what that miracle was other than it was a daily miracle for 40 years. I was listening to Matthew. There's actually a place where he feeds 5,000 and then a little while later he feeds 4,000 more. Yeah. Like, he's very effective. At feeding people, very effective. Yeah. Exactly. And then we got forgiveness.

And then we go to forgiveness. That's the big one. Sins or debts or trespasses, however, you know, when I was growing up with sins. Yeah. As we forgive others, I'm like, whoa. I mean, that's big. And I think he's talking about how poisonous. Yeah, without question.

Well, and this is such a big topic because even now, even today, like there's one surgeon that worked in a burn unit. And I think it was in New Orleans, pretty sure it was in New Orleans. Anyways, he worked in a burn unit. And he did a study on the differences in how people healed when they forgave and they didn't forgive. And the people who didn't forgive, it was significant differences in people, their survival and their healing. Yeah. And it's like it doesn't just help the other person. It helps you.

Right. It makes you sick when you don't. Right. Yeah. The word to forgive means to set free. And we initially think in terms it's like trying to set the other person free. Which doesn't feel fair. Right.

It doesn't feel fair until you realize that the person you're actually trying to set free is yourself. Yeah. Exactly. And the thing about this, that this is hands down, the most. painful part of the prayer by and large because so many people struggle with understanding what forgiveness is. And this was for me years ago. I remember when I initially did my first really in-depth dive on forgiveness. It was in 2013 because it was in anticipation for the first book that I was writing. And I did a whole chapter on forgiveness as well. I came across the research of a guy

about the name of Dr. Robert Enright, who is considered to be the father of forgiveness research. And he's made this statement. He said, in 100% of cases where people are unable to forgive, it's because they don't know the difference between what forgiveness is and what it is not. Right. Right. And forgiveness and reconciliation are different. Yes.

It doesn't mean access. Exactly. Forgiveness is a one-way street. You can unilaterally forgive someone. Right. And never talk to them. But most people think, well, the only way that I can forgive is, we're going to, everything's going to be made right. And that's, reconciliation is a two-way street. You've got to have both parties own up to what happened, acknowledge the role they played in it,

and then work to bring some reconciliation. And that's when it became easy for me, when I realized. It doesn't mean access. Because when Jesus says, forgive us our deaths as we also offer, he's expecting his followers to forgive. Yeah. Right. And when you just go, but Jesus, do you realize what that person actually did to me. It's like, we're not talking about reconciliation. That's the goal, but it's not always the reality. And just because you can't reconcile doesn't mean that you can't forgive. Right. And some people can't be trusted. They can't be trusted with your child. They can't be trust, whatever it is. They're not well. And it also doesn't mean blocking emotion. No, what you had said too, because I remember coming across something that you said on this,

being able to name it, to own it, to feel it, to feel it, and to let it do what it, I mean, it's, it's so painfully difficult to do, but the moment you try to hide it, to not name it, to not, it just besters. I spent years doing that. You have to begin with just going, it happened. Do you know John Sarno's work? I don't. I think you'd love it.

He wrote a book called Healing Back Pain. And then another one actually, Tanna told me about called the Mind Body Prescription. And he talks about repressed rage as a major cause of pain. And I have a new book, Change Your Brain, Change Your Pain. There's a whole section because Tanna calls me Pollyanna because I'm a very positive person and always look for what's good about that. But he calls me the Hulk. So. But then I realized Pollyanna sort of needed to get together with Hannibal Lecter.

Yeah. You have to be able to feel the rage. Right. And have a way to appropriately express it, but then use forgiveness to ultimately let it go. Yeah. So it's this balance between going into your emotion. feeling them, but then giving them to God and letting them go. And that what the last part was, that's the key final piece, is to give it to God.

Because on the one hand, when Jesus says, you know, forgive and forgive us our deaths as we also forgiven our debtors, where all that begins is to be reminded that we have been forgiven more than anything we could have ever repaid to God. And still at times that can be difficult for people, right? because it's like, yes, God forgives. And this person did this. And it's getting to the point where you go, God, on my own, like, I don't have the courage and the capacity to forgive.

I need you to do for me in this moment what I want to be able to do. I just can't do. Yeah. You know, and so there's this whole aspect and it actually in. It is so freeing, though. Oh, it is. And it's, and that's the thing is, at the end of the day, it's a great. quote, Anne Lamont said once.

She just said, you know, not forgiving someone is like drinking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die. Right. Right. It does more toxic to us than it is to them. And when we let them go, we set ourselves free from being attached to whatever happened. Yeah. And as soon as I realize, it does not mean that I have to put myself back in that position. Right.

Exactly. It's just as that simple. Yep. And it doesn't mean that you absolve legal. legal ramifications. It doesn't mean that you can't put up boundaries. It's like and when you do acknowledge it, you do recognize that it's significant enough to have to be forgiven for. You give it the weight. Talk about lead us not into temptation because it's tricky.

It's tricky. In fact, even Pope Francis had the wording modified, you know, years ago because James chapter one states that God doesn't ever lead anybody into temptation. which has created a challenge of lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil. What I basically just always say about this part of the prayer is that if you are successful with the rest of the prayer, buckle up because opposition is coming. Oh, absolutely. If you are a threat to the kingdom of darkness, spiritual warfare is no joke. Spiritual warfare is no joke.

Every time I think I'm doing it, like I'm finally like in this place of doing things well, like something new that I would not have anticipated shows up. Yes. And I think that this is such an important part of the prayer is to be reminded that we don't live in a neutral existence. There is nothing neutral about Earth. There is the forces of good and evil, heaven and hell, shalom and chaos. However you want to describe it, they're duking it out here and now. And if we're called to be change agents, if we're called to partner with the living God of the universe to see his will and his way, advance in the midst of this broken world, hell's not going down without a fight. And so there's always the temptations that come into our life that the kingdom of darkness

will use to detract us from the things that matter the most. You know, whether it is, you know, the excessive use of people now being on their cell phones to unhealthy eating and drinking habits to, I mean, a host of things. Oh, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. The part that was so, for me, when I really realized this, it's like, oh, it can go from one extreme of like, oh, the nightlife, the partying, the attention, the whatever when

you're young to, how about comfort? Right. How about like the really, really, they seem innocuous. Yes. And all of a sudden you realize, oh, that is actually distracting me. And it can go to an extreme. Right. You know, or success.

Correct. I mean, it just all of a sudden, you realize how much you're struggling and you're like, wait, I didn't realize that that became something that was growing to a point of being distracting. So is it deliver us from evil or the evil one? So it can go either way in the Greek, which is why different translations will have it and sometimes they'll footnote it. More so we did with the translation that we did and that we went with in our film and our book and our television series was evil because sometimes people think, oh, well, the devil's just out to get me, you know, and somehow like I've become so effective that the devil knows who I am.

I mean, there's, Satan has all of his minions. I mean, there's a full kind of kingdom of darkness. And I think larger story is, is that what Jesus came to do, and this was the challenge of the Lord's Prayer, this is one of the things that his audience had to wrestle with, because when Jesus showed up, started giving hints and cues that he was the coming Messiah, again, their immediate expectation was a militaristic Messiah that would defeat Rome. Jesus realized that his mission was much bigger than that. He came to defeat sin, death, and the devil. That was the three-headed monster that Jesus was after. And what I love about this part of the prayer is that Jesus in his own life went through temptation and obstacles from the evil one. And two primary areas was his 40 days in the desert.

And then it was in Gethsemiti as well. When he really, three times, God, I don't want to go to cross. Right. And even then, how does Jesus end to that prayer? It's not my will, thy will. He's living out the Lord's prayer. And this is one of the things about the Lord's prayers. I don't think it was just a prayer Jesus taught others to pray.

Like it was the very thing that he was living out in his own life. Like this was his daily prayer. Yeah. And there are things that all of us are going to go through that we're not going to understand. And we're like, why is God doing this to me? Right. Do you know what I mean? Whether it's God doing it to you or not, it's, that's a whole other discussion.

Exactly. But it still goes back to that. Well, there's clearly. Oh, there's a lot. And Jesus is constantly dealing with it in. A number of my books I write about if I was an evil ruler and I wanted to create mental illness, what would I do? and I'd create American society. Yeah.

I'd create social media. I'd create fast food. Yep. I'd create the NBA championships where every commercial is either beer or gambling or Taco Bell. It's like if you just open your eyes, you see the society is not really for us. That you, now, if I was a good ruler or something, I'd ask that question. I'd teach everyone to ask that question.

But evil is real, whether it's evil or the evil one. And then right after he says that, he goes back to forgiveness. Which I think is just so interesting. It's like holding on to hurts is poison. Yeah. Well, and you'd mention this earlier about how the prayers in the plural, it's communal. We don't do this journey alone.

And when God is working through a people to bring restoration and wholeness in his world, nothing cripples the community of Christ faster than unforgiveness. Because we hurt one another. We're human. Hurt people. Hurt people. Yeah. And we need to get really good at being able to say, I'm sorry, to be able to learn how not to do that again,

to be able to forgive well when we wrong, when we've been. wronged because if God's going to continue to keep working through people, what the evil one is going to attack faster than anything else is relationships. And it begins in the home. And it has a downstream effect that influences all aspects of our culture and society. And so it's just a really, really great reminder. Yes, Jesus keeps coming back to it because he just knows. Like, that's where the biggest hurts come from and hurt people, hurt people. And we're oftentimes medicating ourselves as a result of going through hard things that we just don't know how to navigate. Right.

And we have to learn how to navigate. Because we've never been taught to manage our minds, even though managing your mind is all over the New Testament. Exactly. And all over the book of Proverbs. There's such wisdom there. Anyways, we have to stop. We're so great.

You came. What a great discussion. Brad Gray, his book is. bringing heaven here, how the Lord's Prayer can change your life and our world. He also has a movie, The Lord's Prayer on Angel Studios, and a television show. How else can people follow you, learn about you? The best place for people to go is to the sacred thread.com. As you mentioned, the television series just got released,

an angel is very generously making it available for free for people to watch. And so they can go to the sacred thread.com and there they'll get access to the film and the book and find out more about the work that we're doing as an organization. Awesome. Yeah. Well, let's be friends. Thank you so much. Thank you. Yeah.

Thanks for having me. So interesting. So interesting. I feel like we could have gone on a few more hours. Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. And it's been a real pleasure being here. As a psychiatrist, I pay attention to subtle changes because they often tell the biggest stories.

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