Change Your Brain Every Day - Treating Depression Without Medication, with Dr. Steven Hayes

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

Depression is everywhere these days, and more and more people are turning to antidepressant medication for relief. But what many don’t understand is that antidepressant meds can have harmful side effects and be hard to get off of. In the fourth and final installment in a series with “ A Liberated Mind” author Dr. Steven Hayes, he and the Amens discuss the cutting-edge cognitive behavior therapy technique that treats lasting depression without the use of a pill.   For more info on Dr. Hayes book, visit https://www.amazon.com/Liberated-Mind-Pivot-Toward-Matters/dp/073521400X  

Welcome to the Brain Warriors Way podcast. I'm Dr. Daniel Amen. And I'm Tana Amen. In our podcast, we provide you with the tools you need to become a warrior for the health of your brain and body. The Brain Warriors Way podcast is brought to you by Amen Clinics, where we have been transforming lives for 30 years using tools like brain spec imaging to personalize treatment to your brain. For more information, visit amenclinics.com. The Brain Warriors Way podcast is also brought to you by BrainMD, where we produce the highest quality nutraceuticals to support the health of your brain and body. To learn more, go to brainmd.com. Welcome back. We are still here with Dr. Stephen Hayes, and we are just having such a great time talking about ACT therapy and just really how to free your mind. And I love this. And in our last episode, Dr. Hayes, we talked about being able to witness the self.

And I was telling you about something that happened to me as a child. I'm going to really quickly throw this out there. I went through a severe depression in my early 20s, didn't want to live. And I told you someone had taught me this technique of being able to witness it from a distance and figure out what to do. And it was so powerful. It was so helpful. One thing that I learned, I don't know if this means I have like split personality or what it means, but I learned, I figured this out on my own. And I don't know if this is a technique or not, but I'm just curious what your thoughts are. There were times I didn't know what to do. I didn't have the answer. And I started

like thinking to myself, well, I'm removed from the situation. And if I were watching TV, there would be people I could ask. And I started asking people that I trusted. I know that sounds really crazy, but it, um, I know you're looking at me. See only psychiatrists look at you with that. Look, he's doing it right now. It's like, oh, analyzing me. Um, but it was, I found it helpful. I started imagining people that I thought were the smartest people on the planet and what would they say? And it just, it started to open my mind to possibilities exactly what shows you have wisdom within you actually have some answers to this but you're grooving a particular mode of mind that doesn't give you easy access to it when you touch the perspective taking sense of self

by changing time place or person so you could go to the future if you were to have your life evolve in a positive way imagine yourself going to the future. If you were to have your life evolve in a positive way, imagine yourself going to the future, looking back at this very moment right now, what might you want to say to yourself? I almost guarantee you it's going to say something that's actually more useful, more values-based, more helpful than what the monkey mind is going to give you. I love that. You could do it in the form of a person. Can you think of anybody who's powerfully lifted you up, who's been there for you,

who you would like pick as a guide for a moment like this? Take a little time to picture his or her face. Go behind those eyes. Have them look back at you. What do they see in you right now? And if they were to say something to that person called you, what would they say? So you can,, little micro techniques, do exactly what you did. This pick a guide is actually in

the act canon, the techniques that are used. So we will happily make the connection because we're fellow travelers. What you're doing is really resonant to what the entire science underneath the act of psychological flexibility says. But often what will come out, and I've done this with people, you know, in inpatient facilities who are just have lost everything, they're at the edge of the rope, and the wisest things come out, and what they often, what the theme will be, it's okay to be you. You can open up to your history. You can do this. And that values matter. You're here to do something.

What you really yearn for is legitimate. Your deepest yearnings are legitimate. You're not broken. You're just stuck. You're in a cul-de-sac. You know, have faith in yourself. And these things that are almost like truism start showing up. You're just stuck. You're in a cul-de-sac. You know, have faith in yourself. And these things that are almost like truism start showing up.

You know, love makes the world go round. Two that come to mind with my mom was she would always say, keep it in balance, dear. Keep it in balance. And another one she'd say is, be yourself. Just be yourself. Just be yourself. And wow, you know, when I'm really stuck and struggling and, you know, is that wise? Yes, it's wise. So we're carrying wisdom within. Some of it's ancient wisdom.

It's in our culture of traditions. But it's dominated by cultural forces and folks trying to sell us products. And if they can make us miserable enough, they will. And it just, I'm trying to write at the same time. So much. So the first thing I heard was it's okay to be you. Yeah. And do you remember what you said after that? There were four things.

Okay. To use that. What are you here for? And you know, in our work, we always think about four big circles to understand people. So what's your biology. And that's why we look at people's brains because how do I know unless I look? What's the psychology? How do you think? What was your development? Like the social circle, who do you hang out with because they're contagious. But what most psychologists and psychiatrists never talk to their patients about is your spiritual self, which is, it's not just your connection to God. It's why do you care?

What is your sense of meaning and purpose? And you can have the three other circles, right? But be terribly depressed because you don't have a sense of connection to why you're here. Yeah, that spiritual sense of self empowers connecting, I think, with meaning and purpose and building behavioral habits around that. In part because I use the metaphor of it's kind of like a hinge of a windshield wiper. In the ACT model on the left you've got acceptance and diffusion we've talked about in the center we've got contact with the now from the spiritual point of view and on the right we've got values and committed action those are the six okay you imagine them from left to right like a windshield wiper and things are happening

s is happening and this stuff is getting kicked up on kicked up like driving a car on the windshield in front of you. This windshield of the spiritual sense of self, this anchor of this I hear nowness of awareness, allows you to open up to the difficulties of your own history and the chatter your mind's given you, and then to take it on board and come into the present moment in a way that's flexible, fluid, and voluntary, and then carry your consciousness over to what brings meaning and purpose to you. What are you about? What are the qualities of being and doing that you want to show, you want to instantiate, you want to reveal in this next moment? And then, okay, what would you have to do in the world of behavior and actual actions and choices

situational changes that would manifest that quality if you've connected with the importance of love what would be a loving thing to do if you if you connect with the importance of cooperation how could you if you connect with the person genuineness are there some things you need to clean up now about places where you've uh hid and and lied and went into pretense with friends or people who you really you can trust with being more genuinely you you know and you go into the depression example you're trying to give that arc you know includes opening up to painful kind of dark emotions and thoughts, but then coming into the present and connecting with values. And, you know, you look at some of the things that move depression powerfully. It includes things like behavioral activation that is linked to being in the now, nature walks, things like that, friends, but also in the service of something bigger than yourself.

And I ask you this to think about the number of people that have come into you depressed who have cut themselves off from their friends, from the charitable work they do, from the compassionate things they do for others, and they've turned their consciousness inward. If you can help a person turn their consciousness outward and take that meaningful step, I haven't met many people who are really on a values-based journey where depression wraps them around an axle. Yes, it shows up, but it tends to be transient. Why? Because we're doing meaningful things. You know your life matters because you were there for that child

or you raised that money or you helped in that thing that really moves you or you were there at the ASPCA and you saw that wounded animal's eyes and knew that it mattered that you were there. So life is a depression drug if you can connect into meaning and purpose. I like that. That's great. Life is a depression drug. If you connect. Depends on who you're living with. He said, if you connect to meaning and purpose. If you connect to meaning and purpose. You are my antidepressant. It's so true.

You've just been so wonderful, Stephen. So great. Thank you so much for sharing with our audience. I know a lot of people will want to learn more. Stephen is the author of Liberated Minds. Stephen C. Hayes. Stephenwithav.com. You can learn more. Now I'm sad. We're not going to be in person at the evolution of psychotherapy.

Yeah. I've enjoyed this to be able to actually be in your presence physically, but post COVID we'll find a way. Yeah, no, we'll, I'm looking forward to it very much. So we thank you for your time. And I'm looking forward to learning more about it and sharing it with people at Amen Clinics and our audience as well. So thanks for being with us. Thanks, Dr. Hayes. It was wonderful. Thank you. All right. You're listening to the Brain Warriors Way podcast.

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