Chapo Trap House - 1059 - Spreadsheet Vultures feat. Katherine Krueger (8/3/26)

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

We get to some news that we didn’t get to on Thursday, such as Iran_Ceasefire_FINAL_FINAL.pdf, right-wing influencers pivoting to OnlyFans, and the cold case of Nancy Guthrie’s kidnapping. We also respond to some listener suggestions about how to deal with a vulture problem before a lightning round of dystopian stories about AI and dating. Pitch Katherine pieces for The Intercept at [e-mail] CHUNKS now available for streaming purchase at www.patreon.com/chunkstv Chapo & Friends Live at New York’s Society for Ethical Culture on Friday November 6th. Tickets are going fast, get yours now! https://link.dice.fm/zaf99528079e

Okay, and we're off to the races. Greetings, friends. It's Monday, August 3rd, and this is your Chapo. Once again, no Felix today. So joining me once again by overwhelming popular demand. It's Felix Fillin, senior Felix Fillin correspondent, Catherine Krieger. I'm blushing. I'm blushing. That's so sweet. The people love you.

It's very hard to book me. It's hard to give me over here. So, you know, this, we really moved heaven to earth to make this happen. Well, I've got to, I mean, I think I'm going to switch things up to do a little housekeeping at the beginning of today's episode, because Chris is not here to remind me. And I would just like to remind all of you and remember myself that we have an upcoming live show in November. It'll be us, some of our friends, some bold names, a musical guest. That's it. It's in November.

Tickets still available at the Society for Ethical Culture in New York City. So if you're in New York City this fall, please come check out our East Coast 10th anniversary show that will in many ways commemorate our first, one of our first live shows, election night, 2026. Yeah, here's hoping the vibes are just as good. Have you announced any of the bold names? Not yet. Okay. We'll be dripping out shortly, though. Okay.

All right. Stay tuned for that. Second point that you should be aware of. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks.

Chunks. Chunks. Chunks is available now video on demand at patreon.com slash Chunks TV. And if you haven't checked it out yet, I would highly recommend that you do so. It's very fun and funny. They're all kind of inadvertently about mortality as well as observed. Yeah, exactly. If you've been thinking about death and would like a laugh about it, check out Chunks, Chunks, Chunks.

And also, I realize we should really probably be doing this more on the free shows. But I'd just like to remind you particularly if you are a newer listener or maybe you'd like to put someone on to the show. that you can subscribe to us on Patreon to get every episode of the show. Wait, you guys have a Patreon? Yeah. So this episode, if you're listening to it is for free, but there's actually even more content available

if you subscribe to our wonderful Patreon which will give you access to every Chappo show ever recorded. A lot of forbidden riffs way behind the paywall. That's true. Various slurs, death threats, things of night. If you really want to become a complete es, go all the way back.

Yeah, and if you're looking to like, you know, nail us to the wall over something problematic. We've said that's all in the archives. Yeah, you've got to be paid five bucks a month for that. And in particular, I'd like say, like, it has all of our mini-series as well. And, you know, for the Felix heads out there, if you're starting to get a little, feel a little itch, you want Felix back. He will be back later this week. But I should also let you know that if you're, if you feel like you haven't gotten enough Felix lately, the new Felix

miniseries is in the can. You remember the metal gear solid one he did. But let me late, I think you've already guessed what genre, what sort of video game series he's doing next. And let me just tell you, there are hours of this recorded. I believe the first episode is like five hours long. That's so crazy. That's Joe Rogan.

So yeah, new Felix miniseries coming soon. And also, Hesla and I are beginning to record a new season of movie mindset this week. It's that time again. And just a little preview for the fans out there. No more far.

in films, no more black and white movies. This is all certified five baggers. Movies for the boys? Yeah. Well, no, this movie's for everyone. Yeah. These are movies you've probably seen before. Give me a hint about one of the movies.

Barry Lyndon. That's not a hint. Story for the listeners. Will, in one of our very early dates, took me to see Barry Lyndon, and I had not looked up the runtime. And when the... Normally, Catherine likes to look up all the spoilers. I like to know what I'm in for, especially.

if it's scary, and by that I mean about men. And when intermission started, I was hopping mad. I was like beside myself. Yeah, no, Catherine didn't know that it's one of the rare treats. You know, when you see a movie and there's an intermission card. Oh, boy. And I was like, I'd never seen it before in the theater. When you're already having a really good time and you get hit with the intermission

card, you're, oh boy. I, uh, I'd never seen it before in theaters. I think we were seeing in a Metrograph. Yeah. And I was over the moon. I was loving every second. of it, all of the sort of rye, very dry and ironic voiceover narration.

As soon as the intermission... Ryder Hill's likability. I just turned over to Catherine and I'm beaming and I just look at her and she's just like... You could just feel the bad vibe just rolling off of me. I think actually though, if we watch it again, I think you would like it. I think I would.

I think I would. And I would be down to watch it again knowing what I'm in for. Certainly not as bad as our first day movie, which was seeing the Mongolian mining... Oh yeah. Mongolian mining industry documentary about the various ghost towns that they're building. Yeah, in Mongolia. In Mongolia, yeah.

So, yeah, I know, I'll give you, Heston and I, we're, it's out of sequence, but we are recording the Steven Spielberg episode. Nice. This, this Friday. Are you going to talk about Disclosure Day? I'll probably, you know, I'll mention my dislike for that movie. Before we're talking about two Steven Spielberg movies that I adore, which is Jurassic Park, RIP Sam Meal.

I'm sure it'll be a nice tribute for him in that episode. and Lincoln. Oh, that's great. So we're going to do like sort of the two different poles. I've actually never seen Lincoln still. So let's watch that. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, one are about, you know,

sort of ancient monsters. And the others are about dinosaurs, folks. Ayo! All right. Before we get into, I'd like to do a sort of, even in the absence of Felix, I'd like to do a sort of update on how the war is going. But before I do that,

I'd actually like to address something that directly relates to the last episode that we recorded. Yes. listeners you might remember. I did sort of open it up to suggestions. Carrying an hour. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. You listen to Volta talk. For suggestions on what to do about these pesky giant birds. We put out the call and you're obliging listeners answered. Look, I know there's a lot of animals. I know a lot of listeners very well. There's a lot of animal heads.

We had that woman who sent us wet-all seal noises sourced directly from Antarctica. That's so cool. That was awesome. So I knew there was going to be some pretty good suggestions here. So I just like to shout out a few listeners here. The first up writes in, Hey, Chapo, long-time listener, resident ornithologist, MS in molecular ecology and ornithological research, CEO of observing professional wildlife biologist that specializes in raptors, songbirds, and mammals. As an aside, I love that when your listeners not only have jobs, but like really interesting jobs.

I just never expected. No offense. A bird handler through volunteer work, souls born lifer since 2009, and I work in an environmental consulting. Grew up in Georgia, lived in Wyoming, and now California.

Love the show, and would love to talk to you all someday. Mr. Meniker's vulture problem. You could get, this is an interesting suggestion. You could get a speaker, like a JBL's pill or something, drop it close to their dwelling,

and play a loop of different raptor species, territorial vocalization is loud, as fuck. That could drive out the vultures enough to condemn them from their neat lifestyle. Might take a few tries to get the whole thing cleaned up, but once the structural renovation starts happening, they should leave it alone. Fun fact, vultures shit on their feet for sanitization and for cooling themselves off. I'll follow up with this through listening. Best of luck. Birdman Dan, Daniel Jones, wildlife biologist. Wow. I think that's a very, like, that's a very professional and, like, that guy's a real ornithologist. I thought he was going to

suggest like, you know, what they did at like Gitmo or Abu Ghrae where they like play like Toby Keith, you know, just like play like, or like play metal, just like annoy them with bad music. Well, no, I mean, but the bad music to them is. Catherine, if you play metal, that'll attract more vultures. Yeah, true. Yeah. They're very like black metal

birds. You know, they love it. Yeah. Love it. The next one is, next email I'm going to read here. It says, Dear Chappo, this is specifically meant for Will and Catherine, mostly in response to the things they discussed on episode 1058. I've been a listener for the last 10 years or so. I live in Iowa and travel around quite a bit for work,

taking soil samples on farms and ranches. I was in Missouri earlier this year and learned of black vultures after seeing one in a field. They are nasty, terrible-looking things, and they actually attack in large numbers and kill livestock like calves, lambs, etc. Jesus Christ. So farmers shoot them.

Missouri has public service radio announcements warning people not to shoot them and especially not to shoot the innocent turkey vultures as they are not to blame for the crimes of the black vultures. Seems like there's some... Oh, oh, yeah. You know they're killing anything that moves, yeah. Some racism going on here.

Anyway, I learned that the official way they are supposed to deal with black vultures is by creating fake black vulture carcasses and hanging them in effigy in their fields, pastures near their barns. And that is what keeps these vultures. Just stringing up fake carcasses. Okay, this is interesting to me because I had assumed that the vultures in the barn were turkey vultures. That's what I've known was always in Massachusetts.

but you remember the video I took that I referenced the other day, those vultures are all black. Could these be black bolsters? I think these might be black vultures. So does that be more allowed to kill them? I don't know for, I think you're probably still not allowed to kill them, but now I'm a little bit more concerned for my niece. Yeah, seriously.

They're so big. They're so big. But one more thing of the yule like this, Catherine. Also, my name is Chance Youngling, an Americanized version of Yingling. My family went on vacation to Hawaii when I was young, and everywhere we showed up, people were expecting my family to be Chinese.

Thank you. Everyone thought we were Chinese because of the last name, Jungling, just to validate Catherine a little bit. I love to be validated. Thank you for that. Someone also wrote to me on Twitter that there are dozens of us. So thank you for that as well. And finally, this one is Erin from Wisconsin.

Yep. Your neck of the woods. We put this one at the top of the news. And honestly, like, this one is just a very quick, practical advice here. For vulture issues, I would contact your local animal and plant. health inspection service office. It's a branch of the USDA. They should have an office in each state.

They deal with wildlife damage and issues like this, linked here. Thank you, Aaron, for that very practical, sensible, sensible suggestion. But I'm not sure these offices have people in them anymore. Well, Massachusetts might. Yeah, you're right. They might fund it at the same level. Unfortunately, going to rank this suggestion while the most practical last in terms of theatrics.

I really love the idea of creating fake carcasses and like, hey, them from the tree. Yeah, sure. I'll be creating fake carcasses of vultures and hanging them in a bit of dude. I don't actually want to kill them. Yeah, they're incredible. I just don't want them there. Shitting and pissing and dying.

Well, that is a great segue. To the war news for today. Moulters galore there. Before I get into like the story of note that I would like to talk about that I think really puts a fine point on the question of, how's the war with Iran going? I just like to like, as I often do, just read two missives posted on truth social by the president over the weekend. Or the first one is from this one is from this weekend.

The USA is locked and loaded and ready to go against the Islamic Republic of Iran at levels of military terror, strength, and power not seen since World War II. Despite this, we have just been asked by Iran and other Middle Eastern countries to hold off any attack in that the perimeter of a deal has been agreed to. This would include the immediate, complete, and total opening of the Hormuz Strait and an end to Iran's nuclear threat. For the future benefit of the world, and likewise, the survival of a successful and prosperous around to cancel the attack subject to being able to rapidly make a deal. The country of Israel joins me in this commitment. Get to work, everybody, and get it done. Thank you for your attention to this matter, President Donald J. Trump. I love what he says, thank you for your attention to this matter.

Also, I'm just picturing, like, you know, like when a document goes through, like, hell in a workplace. and the document title is called like deal, final, final, actually, V6, you know, like this has been this has been through the ringer. What version of the deal are we on? Well, there is no fucking deal.

Infinite deal. That's the thing. Like, Iran has made very clear that they are currently negotiating with Oman and only the government of Oman on how to manage the straight of Hormuz. Well, yeah, the notion of a deal is crazy because Iran has all of the leverage.

So, like, you know, you can't really force them to the table unless, you know. Well, I like the, You know, it's like a typical, like, we're going to destroy their civilization. And he said, we're going to unleash levels of military terror strength and power and not seen as World War II. But actually, Iran and a few other countries asked us not to do that. So we want to get, what a deal. Okay, so that was from the weekend.

This is today. Iranian leadership is unbelievably duplicitous. They asked for a meeting. Some would say, beg, talks to begin, with more scheduled in the immediate future. And they say openly and proudly that they are not having any discussions, that nothing is being talked about and they're only dealing with Oman. Oman in quotation marks. I'm not a sure. That's really funny. No one is going with quote unquote Oman.

I've never even heard of this Oman. Yeah. Then they will go on to give their usual blather in saying the Strait of Hormuz will be operated powerfully by them when it is already completely controlled by the United States Navy and our blockade. Wait, so is it open? Or as some say, the United States wall of steel.

I love what he does that. He's like, he's like, not think anyone has ever said. Just testing it out. Yeah. It's like, a lot of people are calling me T-bone. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, in the tweet, in the post from the truth social post from the weekend, he's like,

they want a deal where we're working on opening the straight before moves. And then like Monday, he's like, it's totally open and we're in control of all of it. So he goes on to say, the United States, yeah, the United States wall of steel, nothing gets through to Iran unless we want it to. And nothing will get through unless a deal or total surrender is accomplished. But he's just miplashic. Like, we need a. a deal so much or filling that total

surrender. Yeah, it's like, why do you need a deal if we've won and we control the straight? I mean, like, you know, this is, we've been through this thing so many times since this is where I started. It's the same pattern over and over again, but like now we get to the heart of the matter here that I like the news article that I think really puts a fine point once again.

Oh, I got to ask, uh, just because you brought up true social, by the way, is Chapo going to pay $100,000 a month for access to truth API? Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I have the ability to manipulate markets. Uh, you know, I need those truths. I need those truths before the rest of the market gets it.

Oh, crazy. All right. So I just, on our last episode, I solicited advice from our listeners on how to deal with a, you know, like the straight of my mom's backyard is currently closed and controlled by these black vultures. But at the same place, a wall of steel as it plays. I'm barring them. Two things, two things can be true. Well, the wall of metal will be coming out of those JPL speakers. Yeah, it's important to know, like, when you're out of ideas and to ask people who might be more knowledgeable than yourself.

Exactly. It's like when we're really, like, it's like when Felix and I were just like, I don't know, we're traveling or something. We need an episode. You have to do a call on and it. It's like, let's do a clip. Let's just see what our listeners. I'm just, I can't come up with any topics. All right. This is, uh, from CNN today. Headline, U. U.S. military asks troops for creative and unconventional ideas to punish Iran. This is so good. The request from senior. from a senior officer at the U.S. military command carrying out President Donald Trump's war with Iran came in an email. We need ideas. Quote, we are looking for new creative and unconventional ways to pressure and punish Iran, an officer in U.S. Central Command's intelligence branch, wrote in a message sent Wednesday to a broad group of military analysts, according to a source familiar with the message. A second source also said that a senior U.S. military officer sent the message last week soliciting new ideas for how to deal with Iran. The crowdsourcing style query, which military officials said was unusual over email, is one sign

of the limited and potentially unpalatable options available to Trump to force Iran into a deal on his terms, hoping to find an alternative. An official at CENTCOM kicked off the brainstorming session via email to see if anyone had a better idea. No bad ideas in a brainstorm belt. Yeah, yeah. This is all a spitball in here. It's all boost up.

And I'll write it on the whiteboard. It's, yeah. You know, like, men, going into this war, you know, like, we got to score more points to the other team. We got to put some. Yeah. It kind of seems like the war is already lost. Total Iran victory. Because they're just like, oh, like, how do we find our way out of all of, like, a series of unpalatable two worse options for Donald Trump?

And they're like, no, we're still not done yet. Let's open up to the public. U.S. Central Command has a long history of thinking and working in innovative ways, Captain Timothy Hawkins, a spokesman for Sentcom, said in a statement. Admiral Cooper in particular reaches out to members of our great team, regardless of rank, to achieve the highest levels of operational performance possible.

The email preceded Trump's threat to launch new strikes against Iran only to call them off over the weekend after regional officials, namely Saudi Arabia's crown prince, intervened by calling the president and urging him to de-escalate. Will anyone be brave enough to

just respond with two words, nuke Israel? Well, you know, that would be an innovative idea. Yeah, like, I think that would be my... No, this is actually a really good idea for Donald Trump. Like, okay, so how are you going to contain Iran? How are you going to get out of this escalation trap that you're stuck in? Also, like, who started this?

How are we here? You know, like, yeah. Okay, like, we're currently losing to Iran, but here, brilliant galaxy brain idea. You can't lose a war if you switch sides in a war. That is great. So, I think we need to. That's 12 D Chess. I think we need to get with the winner here.

I think we need to just. Donald Trump loves a winner. Love is a winner. Just join the winning side. He knows he's all the left. losing side. Israel is a loser. I know. And the thing is like, we don't have to be a loser if we just make Iran our ally

and Israel our enemy. Listen, that's our conventional. And look, it's so crazy. It's just my work. We've got to get all the nuclear dust from Israel. Yes. They've got so much nuclear dust. Then they will never be allowed to be nuclear again. The nuclear dust. The nuclear dust. By the way, listeners, I'm sorry, I can't pronounce the word nuclear. It's so stuck in my head now that whenever I read it,

I just like... You say nuclear? Nuclear? Nuclear. like a nuclear. Well, you know, we're both children of 9-11. Yeah. So, you know. Yeah, please don't make fun of my trauma. Well, it's also really funny.

Like, I was talking about this in my like morning edit meeting. It's just like they are so out of ideas. And I also like the idea that like Hengs-Sess like final idea really scraped through the bottom of the barrel was like let's give them all testosterone. Let's give these boys tea. Yeah. Yeah, let's, yeah, let's drop some sperm counts. I'll give them all big ass tits like Christine Dome's husband. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah. So clearly that's not working. Because how was his last idea? He was like, all right, yeah, let's put out a call. Well, I mean, the funny thing is, like, an idea that, like, might conceivably change this is an massive ground invasion involving hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops. Well, yeah, the idea is there, but, like, it's totally unpalatable.

That would be truly insane. Yeah. Yeah. And I think even, like, you know, in his twilight hours, Trump knows that that's just not an option. Okay, here's another option. It may. We tell Iran. we're throwing in the towel.

Yeah. Jigs up. We tried our best, but you know, you won. Yeah. And as token of that, we'd like to give you a present.

It's a big horse here. It's a big wooden horse. We just leave it on the beach. It's the biggest wooden horse honestly we've ever seen. Just drop it in the straight of four moves. And they'll be like, oh, thank you. Let's wheel this guy in.

They would do that but forgot to, they would forget to put people inside. Or like the lining would peel off. and like you'd see the guys inside as they're willing it in. It would be like the equivalent of like when we built like the fucking floating dock for Gaza aid.

Yeah. It would be like it just floats away with troops in it and it's like never seen again or like they all drown and their bodies are like floating around. Yeah, we used to build things in this country. We'd like he would give the job to one of Trump's like criminal contractor friends. Oh my God. It's like they're reflecting pool and they would they would paint it with some sort of like

water down sealant that they would. God from like... And Trump would be like, you were using it on my pools. It's no big deal. He's the best. It's like reactive as saltwater or something. People say Odysseus,

he's a very wily guy, very clever. Very clever. So yeah. This is where we're... That is so good. My question here is like, if you are a hawk,

if you are like sort of an American nationalist, I don't know, like... As we are on this show. There's sort of variety of right-winger that like really loves... It really thinks that like America's back and like,

Donald Trump is a strong. leader and like we can do things again because like does this like do you feel good about this yeah like is it going down the way you thought it would like doesn't it kind of like I mean if you had shame you wouldn't be the people you are right of course doesn't it like isn't it getting a little old to have to keep pretending that Donald Trump like knows what he's doing or keep pretending like or that were one like brilliant strategic move away from winning this war or like you're sorting yourself into ever more like untenable takes about like how we're actually winning yeah like You know, it might appear to the naked eye that we're losing.

Like, come on. Like, does it fill you with confidence and, like, do you, like, you go like, America, fuck yeah. Yeah. That, like, your president has to say every weekend that the straight-of-hormuz is totally open and we've completely defeated Iran. Or again, all of this deal talk, it's like, there is no deal. There will not be a deal.

Yeah. You know, like, we have lost. Yeah. Can't be hitting the way they thought it would. They've been waiting for this for, what, 40 years? I mean, once again, I think it was like the Venezuela appetizer. Yeah. I'm way too gas.

Got them way too gas stuff. You know, and that was a cakewalk because clearly like, you know... It was an inside job. Yeah. You know, it was so... His own government coughed him up. A pretty much bloodless coup. But, yeah, I was never going to go down that way.

Well, yeah, so I... In Felix's absence, I'm trying to, like, fit this into our gas station, gas parking lot fight analogy. And this would be like, after you've gotten your ass kicked on Instagram live, everyone's seen it. Everyone's saw your pants fall down. and you like, you know, you pissed yourself. Your little dick fell out.

Yeah, your little weaner was wagging around. Someone punched you so hard that you like, it like shot you out of your like gym shorts and your little weiner was wagging around everywhere. You fell down and it squirred some pee out. We were crying to mommy. Yeah, and you were the one who went live. And then like, and then like the next day you hit up like,

you go on Cora, shout out Cora Raiders and just be like, ask a sort of crowd source a question. And be like, oh, like, any way that like I can win a fight after losing one? Best answers. How do I win a fight after everyone saw my dick and balls? This happened to a friend of mine. Well, speaking of other great, great victories,

victory is not in the military realm, but in the realm of law enforcement. I did want to follow up on this story because it's one that we've talked about with the last couple months on the show. The Nancy Guthrie kidnapped. Oh, boy. Another big win for the Trump administration

and Cash Patel, who loves to be out front on things like this and has been almost silent. Yeah, there's a big article that I've read over the weekend like sort of summarizing the state of this investigation or like the entire history of both like her disappearance and the investigation. Which was totally bungled. That is really something.

And I thought I'd share a little bit about it. You know, Catherine, you and I currently are favorite TV show. Yes. Law and Order Criminal Intent. Yeah, yeah. Can I get your best Law and Order Stinger? My best son-arder. I'm turning my head sideways.

You can't see it, but I'm doing the goryon. Vincentonofrio, like getting inside the suspect's head. Oh, another thing, listeners, another thing that you can't see Catherine doing is that she's sitting in the way that all new female influencers do. Am I? No.

What? Yeah, I've got my ankles around my ears. I do just hang out that way all the time. Speaking of last ideas, Israel is down to its last idea. Only fans. Which is just paying for Moose Knuckle. Oh, I believe Moose Knuckle is the bail equipment of Camel Toe. Oh, sorry.

You were using them interchangeably. I know, I know. But, you know, I had to fact check myself before recording through that. All right. Yeah, so make me look wrong. But, okay, like, it's the hot new thing that, you know, right-wing influence you're doing. Just showing a little bit of clam through extra tight yoga pants. And I was asking Will, we were just like walking to the diner or something.

And I was asking like, is this what guys are into? Like there was also that like dubious possibly AI video from like the NRA. A woman who was wearing like an NRA bot shirt. Did you see that? Yeah. And she was also wearing that look which is like the tiny little yoga shorts. You know, showing a little bit of clam, a little bit of lip outline. And I was like, Will, is this like what guys are into?

And he was like, only if they're hard up. Well, it's just like hard up. Sure. Seeing pussy, that's great. But seeing it through several layers of like workout clothing. To be fair, it's one layer of compressive workout clothing or whatever. Yeah, but like boy. As I said, the Yakuva would be like, women, would you find it attractive?

You're like, she like a hot guy. You're like, ooh, look at him. Yeah. He's been pretty good. He's wearing short shorts and then like one of his testicles just squirts out the side of it. Like, is that really hot? And my retort was like, you know, again, for women who are hard. up, like, all of the women who, you know, they had to, like, change out the appaltery after we saw

withering heights, uh, you know, for that kind of woman, um, the big trend a while back was about like, you know, the, the dick print in the, uh, the gray sweatpants. The gray sweat pants. Um, but again, it's like, and that's also like a kind of influencer. I don't, maybe that's just what my algorithm is serving me. Guys like swinging it around in, uh, uh, gray sweatpants. But again, it's like, yeah. Um, well, no, I, yeah, but, yeah, but, um, I, yeah, Will Sumer just had a piece at the bulwark in his newsletter about how like, basically like all the big right wing shows like in Trump 2 are facing some sort of like listenership schism over like Israel or Epstein or like just like,

I think the contemporary schism in the right wing is like, is all racism good and part of what we believe in? Is all bigotry or like or is that the case except for anti-Semitism, which is bad and a big problem? Well, I would even simplify it further. I would say it's about like, you know, like should we not? support Israel, like on, basically should we continue to support Israel or are we Nazis? You know, like, that's, like, breaking with Israel in terms of, like, should we be worried

about anti-Semitism or are we actual anti-Semitism? Or, like, yeah, like, the ones who are like, we should cut off Israel, but not because I like Palestinians. In fact, I hate all of them and they should die. I just really hate Jews even more. Yeah, it's a real one of those things where it's like, you end up in the right place, but for the wrong reasons. And, like, the piece is about, like, referencing the sort of spread.

Eagle Hasbara Slop account of this like Only fan chick who's just like And someone's like you know You don't have to hand it to them But like they're like hmm I need an audience of completely gullible simps Who will give me money

And who will post And like yeah exactly Like we're like we're like How do I find an audience of People who will give me money From like submental cretans And the answer is The combination of pornography

And maga politics is like This is the new We were Undiscovered country. We were just talking on the last episode about, like, you know, they all hate, like, oh, you know, it's the algorithm on TikTok that, like, turned a whole generation of Americans against Israel. And they're just like, fuck it. We're doing a showing clam and saying Israel has a right to defend itself.

Yeah, but which lips are saying it? Both, I guess. Both lips are wagging. Sorry. Really sorry for that. Anyway. Anyway, back to Samantha Guthrie's mom. All right. So, like, what?

All right. So, like, these are, these are some of the highlights from this article. The first paragraph I want to read begins, the case had trouble from the start. County Sheriff's deputies at first minimized the importance of dried blood found on Nancy's front porch. They failed to seal off the property with police tape to protect sensitive crime scene evidence, allowing reporters, live streamers, and Amazon and pizza delivery drivers entry to the porch. That is so crazy. Investigators spent precious hours

deciding whether Nancy was kidnapped or lost. A search and rescue plane sat grounded until dusk awaiting a deputy train to operate its sophisticated surveillance system. The Wall Street Journal found. This is like... This is a generational bungal. This is like Investigation 101.

Yeah, it is. Yeah, like, seal off the crime scene. So, like, a woman is missing. Like, you think a crime has occurred. There seems to be traces of dry blood on, like, the entrance to, like, the house that she was living in. They're like, you think that's important?

Nah, probably not. Well, and they spent a lot of time deciding, like, whether she was lost or whether she was kidnapped. And I remember when this first broke, there was footage of a pizza delivery man just, like, walking up to the front porch. Oh, that comes up later. Yeah. And then they were like, oh, is this guy a person of interest?

Like, he has a pizza box. Like, what if he's, like, returning back to the scene of the crime? It's like, wouldn't have been a problem if you just put up the police save. It's so simple. We got to fund the police. They can't even afford. They can't even afford police tape. Do not crime scene, do not cross.

Pima County Sheriff, Chris Nanos, in an interview Wednesday, disputed those findings. He also points at contradicted statements he had made during past news conferences. I can assure everybody that we are working hard every day with all of our partners, he said, including corporate America, which has offered up some assistance

with some of the brightest minds in this country, the sheriff added, this case is not cold. This case is six months old. This case is so cold. What are they because they have the first 48? After that, the case is fucking cold. And also, I'm sorry, like, it's been so weird, like, that whole thing about the notes. Like, they...

Yeah. Like, the sheriff's department just, like, put out two of the notes, like, with the premise that, like, the syntax is such that maybe someone will recognize it. You know, kind of like, uh, the Unabomber, where it was, like, his brother recognized, like, certain misspellings. Uh, we'll see what happens with that. But there was also, like, a news development where it was like... And they've now arrested a guy for this.

he was writing fake notes extorting the family and then he was arrested. Yeah. You know, and so it's like they've even like botched the notes thing, but I think like there have been two semi-authenticated notes. And the last one is just like, yeah, she's dead and she's with nature. We're really sorry.

Like we didn't intend to kill her. You know, then basically said like, we think it was a heart problem. You know, so they kidnapped her and then she died in the commission of that kidnapping and they just like buried her in the desert somewhere. I mean, I'm sorry.

Kidnivings are really hard to. to pull off, especially of like an older woman. Yeah, listeners, more free advice from the show here. You're going to want to kidnap someone young and healthy. You're going to want to kidnap the child, okay? Because you just give them a switch. They're fine.

Yeah, yeah. Boy, boy, boy. There's another great detail I loved in this story. A month earlier, A&E aired the first installment of Desert Law, a 10-episode reality TV series about the Pima County Sheriff's Department. The series was promoted as a glimpse into a world where the spirit of the Old West still lingers

and the fight for order never ends. Yeah, the spirit of the Old West and like, in terms of like before they knew about like fingerprints or DNA. Yeah, when a guy... An investigation was like... Yeah, a guy could just kill a man in cold blood and then move one...

The other guy had a gun. And then just walked to the next county and they're like, well, it's cold. Yeah. He's like wearing a false mustache. Nanos, who is serving a second term as elected sheriff, approved broad access to his department

during the show's four months of production last year. The sheriff, a 70-year... year old with a tan and white hair told his deputy deputies after winning his first election that i'm going to micromanage the shit out of you we called the deputy who heard him in january nanos said he hoped the tv series would cast a heroic light on his jurisdiction where deputies work in daytime's blistering heat and the blanket darkness of desert night this is truly the last thing we wanted to happen instead the guthrie kidnapping took center stage revealing missteps to a broad audience boy oh boy uh listen to this his

This is, Danos. His appointed head of homicide, Sergeant David Stivers, was reprimanded two months before Nancy's kidnapping for poor judgment. Blame for delays securing crime scene evidence in a homicide case, personnel records from a public records request show. Chargers in the homicide case were dropped for insufficient evidence. Jesus Christ. Stivers and his detectives arrived at Nancy's house in the late afternoon on Sunday,

February 1st. For hours, they gave little regard to the dried blood on the front porch, said people familiar with the investigation. They suspected the blood. might have come from some unrelated head bump, nosebleed, or other incidental injury in the police. Oh my gosh. Oh, my God.

This is 101. If you see the single hour, or episode of Law & Order, it's like all the blood is evidence. Yeah. Like, it doesn't matter if it's from a nosebleed. Don't let people walk all over it. Or sheriff.

It looks like we've got some ketchup on a phone bar. Maybe someone was just butchering an animal right here. I guess we better disregard. Do you think this blood might be, like, irrelevant to this kidnapping or homicide investigation? they're like, someone might have had a nose bleed earlier in the week.

I wouldn't pay it too much attention. It's got real, like, has our fucking pizza arrived yet? It's got real, I don't want to do the paperwork for this vibes. You know, it reminds me of like the chain of custody

like in the OJ case where it was like, some guy just like had the glove and shit like in his, was driving around. He took it home to his house and before he's logging into evidence. You know, like, yeah,

it's crazy that like, you know, police departments still don't understand how important chain of custody with evidences. Because like, look, we need to fund their education. Yes. Like, they can't read. Yeah.

Cops can't read. They are quite literally illiterate. Yeah. Cops can't read. We need literate. We need, we need more. We got to stop cutting their funding. We need literacy programs.

I know. And giving them all of those big cat, like huge vehicles. You know, like, they've got money for that. But like, somehow just put it in the evidence bag and seal it is like, you don't even need to know how to read for that. I love this code. On Tuesday, February 3rd, the sheriff opened his late morning news briefs. thing by apologizing for any confusion he might have caused about the department's theory of the case.

I'm not used to everybody hanging on my words and then trying to hold me accountable for what I say, Nano said. A man who agreed to participate in a TV documentary series. He's like, oh, I thought it would make me look good. Yeah. Now we get to head of the FBI, top G-man, Cash Patel. Top walleye. It was great to be on the ground in Arizona with our FBI team leading the charge, Patel said,

in an interview on Sean Hannity's Fox News show that night. We've made substantial progress in these last 36 to 48 hours, he said. I do believe we're looking at people who, as we say, are persons of interest. While the show aired, Carlos Palazuelos, a 36-year-old door dash delivery driver was taken into custody by the sheriff's deputies about an hour south of Tucson. County Sheriff's tactical responders wanted to hold off on searching Palazuelos home, according to the people close to the investigation. at the FBI's urging the county SWAT team went ahead.

The team destroyed doors and detained family members during a four-hour search, a lawyer for Palazuelos said. The search came up empty. Palazuelos was released at 1 a.m. Authorities never said why they took him into custody other than he was a local delivery man. On Thursday, February 12th, the FBI released a more detailed description of the man in the Nest video, 5'9, 5'10, average build, wearing a black 25-liter Ozark Trail Hiker backpack. sold exclusively at Walmart.

Investigators fanned out to local Walmart stores, scouring surveillance videos and receipts, but found no suspects. That week, Nanos sent DNA samples from the Guthrie House, including a hair sample to a private lab in Florida, the Sheriff's Department routinely employed. Nano said he declined to use the FBI lab in Quantico, Virginia, because the Florida lab already had samples from family members,

workers, and others known to have visited the house. The FBI says, well, we could send it to our lab, Nanos said in a February 13th TV interview. I said, well, why would we do that? that. Trump spoke that day with reporters about the case. It was a local case originally, and they didn't want to let go of it, the president said. And they didn't want to let go of it. That's it. It's jurisdictional. They didn't want the FBI to step in. But ultimately, when the FBI got involved, I think you know progress has been made.

What is that progress exactly? Last thing I'm going to read from this. The A&E Network categorized Desert Law, the TV series about the Pima County Sheriff's Department as a modest success, as spokesman said. a second season isn't planned. Yeah, yeah, exactly. A little bruising for A&E, that vaulted network. Yeah, just absolutely crazy. Also, I just love that, like, Cash Patel is so inclined. He loves being out front and, like, taking credit for things.

And actually, like, he's taking credit for a bunch of things that, like, do not count at all. Like, he took credit for Luigi. Who was responsible? They didn't find Luigi. A McDonald's worker called him in. he also claimed victory in the killing of like that MIT professor and that other professor and it was like that was also a situation where like like a tipster called it in well it probably called his tip line yeah but again it's like this is not your investigative uh you know power like

you know this is not really your scalp that you're able to claim well you know uh he's very he's very busy you know he's got the girlfriend from people saying like oh like cash should be doing a better job. Yeah. With this poor... He's got a smoking hot girlfriend. What do you expect? You know how hard it is to have a smoking hot country music star girlfriend?

Yeah. Well, the first part, you know how hard that is. Yeah. It's a full-time job. It's no walk in the park. Let me tell you that. I gotta live with her. Yeah.

So yeah, that was a really stunning piece. Yeah. Oh, boy. And also just like, yeah, the second note being like literally apologizing for like, she died. She's with nature now. Like, they're never going to find her. Yeah.

I feel, I really like, feel for that family. Like, you know, what an absolute bumgle. And it's so high profile, too. It's like, this is the one thing you can't screw up. And they did. They never caught the Lindberg baby. They never found the Lindberg baby who kidnapped himself, by the way.

Yeah, that case is also not cold. They're reopening that. We got some hot tips coming here. Cashman is going to figure out what happened to Amelia Earhart as well. What I'd like to do for the rest of the show is there are some stories that I had put together for our last episode, but we didn't get time, we didn't have time to get to them. So I'd like to do them. We're too busy ranting about Israel and turkey vultures.

I'd like to get to them today in a segment that, I was like, these are just sort of quick hits. They form a sort of a tapestry, if you will. Nice. Tapestry about better living through technology, better living through artificial intelligence. Oh boy. In particular. You know, it's a topic we love to talk about.

Life is getting better all the time because of AI. Yeah. And I'd like to begin with, this is something, uh, open, AI CEO Sam Altman. He tweeted this over the weekend. He writes, cool use case of chat GPT work

I heard last night. Oh, God. Connect your family calendars and explain your kids' interests. Every morning for the drive to school, have it make a podcast that talks about one kid's soccer game that afternoon,

one kid's upcoming birthday, some news, etc. Will, they're coming for your job. This will overtake you. Well, yeah, no, It's pretty soon

I'm gonna be doing like, like episodes only for one kid. Yeah, like, like, yeah, cameo, but,

uh, hey, good luck on your soccer game this week. Yeah, just be like, oh, like, uh,

this one's going out to Caden, just like he came through last night with a big goal, you know, game winning goal. Well, this is also clearly like, you know,

like fighting against the current of like, you know, and I can't really make heads or tails of this, whether or not it's just like literally marketing. But Open AI and Anthropic have come out recently and said like, yeah, by the way, whatever experimental model breached the sandbox quote unquote and was doing hacking.

Like it basically, do you know about the story? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was also so funny. Like open AI was like, yeah, our very powerful AI breached containment. And then Anthropic was like, ours did two. Oh, yeah, yeah. By the way, ours did too. R also did the bad thing.

Like you should all be really afraid. And like, Olman had this line about the whole thing about like, yeah, maybe we need to like kind of slow down development until society catches up to like basically... Yeah, yeah, but that's it, that's it. Which again is why I'm always just left to like... He needs to start on development until he figures out how to make money doing any of this shit. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm always just left to think like, is this is marketing. Well, you know... That's why I'm inclined to believe the stuff about it breaching containment and, like, hacking the internet is also bullshit. Yeah, exactly.

Like, it's the same way, like... It's about like... It's about like... It's... It's about the singularity and how dangerous this... Oh, we're creating an evil anti-god and the computer. No, you're not.

You know, the way they talk about the robots and stuff, it's like, you have to invest in this. We have to steal all your water because it's going to take over the world. And all books and electrical property. But like, you know, there was a story last week about how like they just like buy rare books by the thousands and burn them.

Scan them and then destroy them. Seriously? Yeah, well, apparently according to the, it's like, this is actually like, according to you, a judge's ruling that like it's not copyright infringement if there's only one copy, the end of it.

So they scan it into these huge scanners and then they destroy the original copies. Which is like... That's so evil. You know, like when the library at Alexandria was burned. Everyone agrees that that was bad, right? Well, yeah, but like the history of that it was actually like, yes, like the loss that it represents to like human knowledge and civilization is incalculable.

Because like, you know, like the destruction of like the only physical copies of like so much of the learning of like the world of antiquity of like classical Rome and Greece. But that was a revolutionary act. yeah, an uprising by the Christian slave population of Alexandria that were like quite, I think we could say understandably lashing out at like a symbol of like the kind of pagan authority that had, you know, enslaved them. Well, it was also bogarting all of the knowledge. Yeah. And, you know, keeping them illiterate. And it was like, you know, an act of vandalism because they were like, we don't need all of this learning. We only care about the Bible. Yeah.

You know, like that's the only thing that's real like all of this is an offense to our God. But like, you know, like that was an act of vandalism that, like I said, we're still doing. This is, what they're doing is so much worse than that. Yeah, it's awful. Because, like, this is an act of cultural and civilizational vandalism. Cultural genocide, really. But, like, it's only just for these dipshits,

these fucking morons. To train their models. Just, like, to make money, just to make money for themselves. And, like, you know, like, they're not preserving these books by scanning them. Yeah.

They're, like, they're stealing them. And, like, what I'm going to. They seem to discover new knowledge to immediately privatize it. Or, like, or no, privatize all knowledge, all knowledge, too. They want to sell it back to you rather than like, you know, and then like, and by destroying physical copies of like, you know, our recorded knowledge as a species, like they're going to

charge you to get it back. Yeah, it'll, they will be the only arbiters of dispensing knowledge like the Catholic Church or something. Yeah. And what's worse than that is like contained in this Sam Altman, cool use case of chat GPT, where like you tell chat GPT about your kids and then it creates a specific, like a specifically tailored podcast that you can listen to on your drive to school. Why don't you just ask your kid about their soccer game?

Yeah, it's so, like, evil to me. It's also like, what about just talking to your kids? Like, you have to, you have to, it's like kind of like iPad parenting. It's like, but, you know, like, worse. It's like, you can't just talk to your kids in the car. You have to, like, put on media to, like, zone out to. That's only for them. Well, you know, it's like outsourcing parenting to computer.

Like saying, like, you know, good luck with soccer. It's worse than that because, like, I think, like, you know, as per our, you know, many. episodes we've done at Zitron. Like, as they spend their wheels faster and faster, trying to, like, keep this fraud, keep this bubble going. And, like, you know, hope

that nobody figures out that, like, they're not actually making any money doing this. And, like, all the promises that they've made about what this technology can achieve has yet to materialize. And, like... To put it lightly. Yeah. I think for some of many guys like him,

like, I think, like, the sort of profitability model that they're hoping to, I don't know, give birth to midwaters. life here is one in which all human interaction is replaced by like talking to an AI. Like don't talk to your family. Talk to it through an AI. Well, and also just as the only clearinghouse and arbiters of truth and knowledge. So like, yeah, there's no profit margin for that yet. But eventually when all knowledge and the ability to converse or, you know, like sort out your own

emotions is mediated through chat GPT, like what, you know, it'll just be just so ingrained. Like, then the profit will come off. the one hand, like, if like, you know, like scanning books and like creating a digital archive of like a digital library of Alexandria, like, that's a worthy project if you're not also destroying the original copies. Because like, yeah, it's good to have backups of everything. But like, what if electricity goes away? Yeah. Then all human knowledge is gone. Yeah. Then we're like, we're living like fucking cavemen like in not too long a time. Yeah, we talked about this when we watched that show, uh, Station 11 where it's like, I, I totally take for granted how much

knowledge I think I have, but which is essentially stored in the cloud. Just like on computers. You're just like, oh, how do I do something? You just look it up. Well, and again, like, you know, I like to use a computer metaphor, it's no longer downloaded to my brain. So I find myself like Googling things that I should know and feeling like because it's so at my fingertips, I do know it. But like without the internet as assistance, like I don't really have the knowledge. And I think like us outsourcing critical thinking and knowledge, is, you know, is, yeah, is apocalyptic. And it's like, it's been, like, outsourcing it is one thing,

but like you're out, like, these people are privatizing. Yes. Not just all human knowledge, but like human interaction. Yes. Human relationships. And like, this post came like, I think a day after Sam Altman's. And like, this guy maybe trying to like curry favor, like the fucking little obsequious toes that all these people are.

Kill yourself. Kill yourself. Yeah. This guy is CEO at Get Moka. I like, I like building Legos and empower others to build castles. Wow. Where start-up name's always that? I know, yeah, yeah.

So he says, Toddler spent her first night ever sleeping with someone else in the same room. Says. Her toddler cousin. They, of course, spoke for over an hour in very nonsensical toddler dialect, going over important tautological questions

about themselves, life and the universe. Recorded everything in high quality by sneaking a mic in there, gave the very long recording to Claude, built a private web page for the whole family with the audio split in the clips, all named and trimmed.

Pure joy from everyone. AI is pretty great. And like you see here like bedtime chat and it's created like this whole track listing with topics like Papa Daddy, the buggy lake, hi mama. And like I guess like you know,

maybe this is a cute thing to do for like it's a private website. It's not like he's putting it out all into the world, but like just the fucking thought to like record your toddlers like sleepover conversation. And again, maybe just record it like for your own personal use to like, you know, kind of like a digital baby book.

But like, you know, you're feeding it into a model. You're training this model on like the way kids talk. Like, it's just so deeply, spiritually bankrupt to me. It's like, you know, like these are your children. Yeah. You know. And it's a surveillance aspect of it. Like I surreptitiously recorded their sleepover conversations because

and now here's like, you know, and yeah, oh, here's a cute podcast of just them talking. Well, and again, it's like, for what purpose? You know, like, yeah, you want to, like, break this down into a data set. You want to, like, you will eventually, like, try and optimize your kids' nonsensical sleepover or talk. Exactly. Exactly. You know, which brings us, which brings me to, like, it's like the data of everything, you know, like, in, like, adults, like, wearing those rings that tell you, like, oh, you're not sleeping well. So then you can be stressed about not sleeping well and then have the numbers to back it up, you know? No, the idea that you can quantify all human interactions.

And it's worth doing. And relationships. you can optimize it. Yeah. This is the perfect I mean it's like the next two articles I want to talk about which are exactly about this phenomenon.

This is from the Wall Street Journal. To record or not to record? That is no longer a question for people in tech. The answer is a resounding yes. A Zoom call isn't complete without an artificial intelligence note taker. Phones are out at meetings

capturing every word. During impromptu conversations with coworkers, someone might turn on the granola transcription app, which can turn the interactions into one-page summaries or a list of action items. Even at bars and on dates, people are using AI-infused listening apps to analyze conversations later on. Gone are the days of any interaction being private by default. Asking for permission is out, even though in some situations that could mean violating the law. It isn't creepy if it's in the name of productivity, say the people doing the recording. No, it is creepy. It's creepy.

Again, like, just not trusting your ability to think critically to relate to another person. I was just talking to a friend about remembering a conversation as it happened. Yeah, it's like, you know, like what's the point of having human relationships at all, if not to like internalize things or react to someone's facial cues or, you know? It happens on a daily basis, said Eric Bond, a venture capitalist in San Francisco, who started noticing it about a year ago. And by the way, folks, a long time listening to the show will know that I think San Francisco, is the most beautiful city in America.

It is really, I think, one of my favorites. I have no desire to go back, unfortunately. Zero desire. I'm sorry, but there needs to be a solution to the San Francisco problem. It's called a purge. It's like, we've got to do something about San Francisco. They're rounding up the wrong people.

He says here, during his meetings with founders, they put phones out on the conference table and then inch them toward him like an athlete, he's an athlete in a post-game interview. Bonn used to ask if he was being recorded. The answer was always yes, followed by Is that okay? Nowadays, he just assumes they are

and chooses his words more carefully. I just see this as normal protocol, he says. Our society is moving to a state of East Germany. By the way, this is what the Stasi was trying to prevent, by the way. I think you mean West Germany or Nazi Germany. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the Germany you mean. Yeah, the Stasi were recording everyone

and there was no privacy there, but they were trying to stop this from happening, okay? Good Lord. Maybe re-watched the last. lives of others. And your sympathies may be changed based on the society. Yeah, it's like East Germany and the Soviet Union, like they're gone now. Yeah. This is the world we have.

Yes. Going on here, it says, Emmy Chang, founder of a startup that bonds firm invest in, which provides sales data intelligence, uses AI to transcribe every conversation she can. At a work conference in Albuquerque, New Mexico in May, Chang wore a small pin with a red light indicating it was recording. someone who worked at the conference eventually approached Chang and told her the device was making people uncomfortable.

She found the request to stop recording, triggering. It's my thing, she says. I'm not attributing who said what. It's for my general knowledge. Chang has also taken to recording most of her first dates, usually with granola. She puts her phone out on the table or on her chair, and then once the date is through,

she has the feed automatically sent to Anthropics Claude to report back on how she did. Insights. Can I be more engaging and empathetic, she says? you might ask, Claude, what are the percentages of me talking

versus them talking? People are, people are just going to get to the point where like, okay, so what do you do with this data?

You just read what Claude is telling you about how to appear more empathetic at your next date? Here's a tip for how to appear more empathetic on your next date. Don't record the conversation

you're having with someone. Yeah, I'm sorry, that is such a non-starter. That would make me so fucking uncomfortable that I would just, I would just end it. But,

Catherine, I think you have this, like, exactly right. There's something, it's not that like, AI are becoming more and more human. It's like we're becoming more like it.

And when I think about these like founder, San Francisco brain people that you were talking about, where they think that everything can be turned into data. And then once you see the data and like look at it on a spreadsheet, then like the... You can optimize. And some sort of truth about human behavior or yourself or your own... Like, you know, this is the hardest question in all of human life is like what actually motivates us? What are the psychological reasons behind our behavior, our character, our thoughts? Can we change those things?

Can we change these things? And like, or do we understand what motivates others? We spent tens of thousands of years trying to like answer this question. Communication fails. You know, like there's only so much you can bridge, you know, communicating with another person. And now it's like, it's this idea that like, and I don't think it is actually trying to better understand yourself. No, I think it's about like, I'm kind of a shitty person, but Anthropic can tell me. like, you know, in these like kind of digestible little things.

It's not about like, hey, maybe you're an asshole or maybe you just don't get along with this person. It'll say like, actually, I think you're coming from a place of empathy. Like, you know, basically tell you like digestible bullet point reasons for like, you're fine or like, here's like deck chair things about how to like improve yourself. But it's like, what about just knowing yourself? And look like, I'm not a tech person obviously. But when I see this and when I see like, you know, newspaper articles like documenting this

phenomenon. I saw another piece the other day about like some tech dipshits had a wedding and it described about how at the wedding there were breakout sessions at a wedding. At a wedding that everyone's recording their conversations. How romantic. You won't believe how many startups

came out of it. I think these people have subsumed their entire personality and like whatever it is that makes them who they are or whatever semblance of a soul in like what do you believe that in a literal or the absence of one. I think they've just been subsumed to like capital accumulation.

And they have become machines themselves. Yes. Because like to me like, and maybe there's just like a personal preference. Maybe it's not applicable to all people. But like I feel very strongly that like the only way that you can like better understand yourself and understand your own psychology is through like a serious engagement in like art and literature. Yes.

I think it's like it's like through reading serious books or like reading like not books about how to make money. Yeah. Or like you know, book of nonfiction. I think it was only through a serious engagement in literature. And that can begin with the Bible, the Odyssey, you know, the Quran. Things that might challenge you and therefore expand your horizons is how you get to self-knowledge. You're never going to get to know yourself better via computer.

Looking at a spreadsheet. Yeah, exactly. I also think it's about like they essentially view all social interaction, even something as beautiful as a wedding, the uniting of two souls as like basically like a lost leader. Yeah. Like it's a waste of time and so they have to make it productive in some way to justify it. You know, like, I was just talking to a friend about this. There's been a lot of, like, viral moments recently about, like, you know, men sending women voice memos about, like, basically, like, if I'm buying you dinner, I demand sex because, like, no, it's truly because it's like, you know, they want to view human interaction as, like, an ROI question.

Yeah, exactly. Because it's like, if I'm spending $200 for dinner, like, it would be a waste to not get my $200 back out in terms of, you know, like sex or something. and it just it drives them absolutely mad that like you know human interaction there is some ineffable quality about like you know it's not like investing in a stock or something I think these people think that every, making a purchase every second that they're not asleep which they also regard as them losing money at like time that could be optimized. Which is why they even optimized sleep. It's like having dreams or you know entering a REM state of sleep. That's just like I could be I could be talking to Claude. I could be fucking, you know. Well hence all of these crazy like founders diaries about like I wake up at fourth.

30 and like, you know. No, it's because I think they've subsumed every aspect of their personality into like making themselves into a machine for capital accumulation. Yes, period. Which is like, that's not, you know, in a real sense, you have ceased to be a human being. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of dating, did you see the other, like, perpetual discourse?

Like, the male cited out is like, you know, you make a, make a date with someone and then you're just like, yeah, I'm going to need to know before we even go out to dinner. Like, are we fucking or no? Are we fucking or not? Yeah. Because like if not, like, I'm calling the whole thing off. Well, and it's, yeah. And like, the idea is like, if that's what you want, just hire a pro, right?

If you want there to be like, if you want a sure thing. Yes. Like, just pay for it. But the point is, like, in real, not sort of synthetic or virtual or sort of, I don't know, professional human interactions, especially with romance. And as you may see, both sides have to take some sort of chance. Well, and again, it's just a way to dress up like hating women because ultimately they hold the keys. You know, so like, you want them to behave like an.

employee to you. Well, there's a, the sort of flip side of that equation was, women, women are also toxic. The Uber black thing? Yeah, the Uber black thing, which is, by the way, the person who posted that is another, like, amoral tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fucking just, I don't know.

Like, I don't know. There's got to be a middle road between these things. And the thing that's very odd to me about that is, like, this is a person who, like, clearly, like, went to college. And I'm going to go on a limb here and say her parents went to college, too. Like, in countries or cultures that are, like, much poorer and, like, less developed than the United States. Like, in dating or courtship,

it is very important that the male suitor like make a demonstration of their resources to be like, because like, you know, that is like literally an investment. You know what I mean? Like, it's very important for like the woman and her family to know that this suitor can like, you know, provide everything up front.

And for him to be showing how seriously is with money. But like in a society. We as Americans view that as a side of gender inequality. And like, yeah. And like a much less less socially evolved. Yeah. Like women are not empowered.

And so, you know. Like a much more desperate social and economic circumstances that like with that kind of behavior like makes sense where it's like if there are two people like considering going to date with each other

and like I'm going to be like generalized here like but if both the sets of your parents have attended college. Yeah. There's no need for this. Especially if you're a woman like and you have a job and your own resources. There's no point in like, look, buying dinner if you're the,

male suitor. If you ask the woman out on a date and like you date movie, dinner or whatever, drinks or whatever, I think that totally makes sense for you to pay for that. Yeah. But like the expectation now that you have to pay for her car to the date. That's where I lose it. Yeah. You lose me there. That's where I lose it. And again, it's like both sides are increasingly toxic, right? Like men, if they're like, okay, I will pay for dinner as you demand, but I better get sex

out of it. But women are also kind of upping the ante in terms of like the, Uber thing in particular is like, are you gotta have some skin in the game? Are we chattel? You know? Yeah. Like, I have a college education. I have a job.

Like, isn't, doesn't that feel a little disempowering, you know? Well, like I said, like, I think this is like the fact that like this very bloodless, like mercenary and like sort of, I don't know. Like show me how much you value me in money. Yeah, yeah. Because again, my time is money. And so like how much do you value it? Exactly.

I think it's like, these are the, these are the values. These are the values that I think are like endemic that is like, you know, we've talked about it before, but leading to like, probably like worst like gender relations and paranoia between the sexes. Gender relations are at an all time low. I truly believe that. And I think it's like with men and women, like the values that people are being instilled with or are cultivating for themselves, like come from this like totally amoral capitalist value system that I think is programming people to like, to not just view other people as not human beings, but to not view themselves as a human being. Yes, yes.

And like to view like... And I don't know where we go from here. And like to view like the time that you have on this planet, like the time, the limited time of your experience of consciousness in this universe. This bloodless and capitalistic of a way is like you have to be optimizing at all times. You are missing the point of being alive. I'm sorry. Like...

The fucked up thing though is like people don't come to this like voluntarily for... I mean, some people do, I would imagine. but the point is that like if our economic, social and political system is organized in this way, it's like, it's not irrational

to become a fucking spreadsheet Android, you know? I mean, it's hypercapitalism. Or to begin to like, map onto every human interaction, including friendships and romantic relationships,

this same kind of like totally mercenary attitude. What's the ROI? Like, what am I getting out of this? Otherwise, it's a waste of my time. And like,

I think the point with dating is that, like, both, it's all about both sides have to take a little bit of a risk or a chance. And, like, there has to be, both sides kind of have to have to have a little bit of skin in the game. And I understand that there is an essential dissatisfaction about, like, yeah, a lot of guys you'll meet on, like, hinge or whatever, it will be a waste of your time. But again, like, what is the alternative? Like, you know, same as, like, meeting anyone out in the world. You know, did you see the director Greg Iraqi's comments recently? No, what did he say?

Well, like, I mean, there's one of those things, like, the real generational split between, like, where he was, like, because he has a new movie out with Cooper Hoffman and Olivia Wilde, I think. And, like, all these movies are very, like, you know, dark, but they're also very dirty. Like, there's tons of sucks in them. Gay, straight, everything in between. And, like, I've, I'm not a huge Gregoraki guy. I really liked a couple of his movies.

Like, I think Mysterious Skin is really a fantastic film. But, you know, he was saying, like, his style of filmmaking and the kind of world of, like, the gay culture of the 90s, the sort of avant-garde independent film world that he came out of. Does not really exist anymore? Well, like, he was saying, like, to young people today, he was just saying, like, your youth is for having bad relationships. He was like, take that risk, go on a bad date, be with a bad partner.

It teaches you something not just about yourself, but about what you want. Exactly. It teaches you how to articulate what you want on it. You can't have good sex until you've had bad sex and know what you want. And he was just saying, like, this is what being young is for. Yes. And like, you're going to get your heart broke. Like, this is what being young is for.

There's no other way to do it. Exactly. And, like, you know, like, this, again, this is not like a total reality. because I'm just based on like the zoomers who replied to the variety post on social media, but they're all just like, you don't understand how dangerous it is.

Like going on a date with a man, sorry, I'm not trying to be murdered. I mean, it's always been that way though. You know, it's like there is something totally unbridgeable between men and women that there isn't an inherent risk of violence in heterosexual relationships. But again, like, show me a better solution.

Like, we need each other, we hate each other, there's something unbridgeable, men are from Mars, women are from Venus, but otherwise just move to the woods, I guess. You know, like, you're never going to grow or become like a full human being unless you get, you know, hurt or you're heartbroken. You need experience.

I don't think you can ever really be in love unless until you've had that first heartbreak that like sets you back for years. You know, like no one would choose it but also like it's so central to the human experience. Well, listen, or keep that in mind everything, Catherine. Like the very heartfelt things, Catherine and I have just said to you. into it. I wasn't expecting to go this cheap on

this. This is another piece from the Wall Street Journal about spreadsheet dating. Carolyn Travis was smitten by a man she met in an entrepreneurship course. It took a spreadsheet to realize that the relationship was doomed. Well, boy. After a few dates, the 27-year-old

debriefed her two best friends over lunch. When she went to the bathroom... Claude and Chatchip-T. These are actually two actual real friends. When she went to the bathroom, they got to work. They plugged Travis's values into an app one of the friends built to access compatibility. Then they entered everything they knew about her date, an engineer more than a decade her senior.

The spreadsheet crunched the numbers. The result, a portrait of incompatibility. Her perspective shifted. She saw him a few more times before breaking things off. Now she uses the app called spread to track all of her dating data. So what a gross name for now. Spread. Spread up.

Back to the only fans. The MAGA only fans. Talking with friends is one thing. But having a visual representation of what I want versus what I'm allowing is another, said Travis, a child welfare advocate. Travis is among a cohort of spreadsheet singles or love hackers who believe data

could hold the cure to their dating woes. They say dating apps that spit out an unlimited menu of potential partners make it too easy to miss obvious red flags. You become a little bit more willing to make compromises on things you might not usually compromise on just because you're so tired of searching, said Alyssa Tracy, one of Travis's confidants. The other, Samson Azame is the creator of spread. Converts say spreadsheets turn their desires into packaged data sets that they can analyze for patterns. We are so doomed. Anything I typically catch feelings after the fourth date, after the fourth date, to my best dates tend to work in engineering.

Like, why do you need a spread? Can you just know or understand intuitively what your desire is or what your likes are? That also kind of gives up the game. Like, are you catching feelings because you know that in your heart and your mind? Or are you catching feelings because an app is telling you, by the way, you're catching feelings.

You're going to want to see the readout we got on compatibility with this last date. Oh, boy. Yeah. You should be falling in love right about now. You may have felt it actually didn't go that well. Yeah. These numbers are off the charts. His cue score is crazy.

for Peyton Knight, a 27-year-old brand strategist in Austin, the rigidity shield is the whole point. She thinks dating has to feel corporate to be effective. Oh. She says here...

I got a rigidity shield right here. Is that a rigidity shield in your pocket? Are you just excited to see me for our fourth day? Rigidity can actually be a shield against vulnerability, said Wombo, who now runs her own dated coach at company. This is the point to Gregorakia. You have to be vulnerable

to date someone. You have to be vulnerable to love someone or to like... Putting yourself out there means like, yeah, you couldn't get embarrassed. You could even get hurt. But like, there is simply no other way to like foster human connection.

And I'm sorry, if you're in your 20s, if you're like 25, 27 years old, you'll make some mistakes. You should know like what you like or what your desires are or what turns you on or what is a successful day. To me what this reeks of

is like people have never, do not have any self-knowledge. And they're coming around to it a little late and instead of admitting that they have no self-knowledge and they don't know what they want and making you know taking steps like i don't know dating around or getting therapy or you know taking real concrete steps to know yourself better they're outsourcing that project entirely because it's uncomfortable to realize that you don't know yourself you know i see to read this a sentence again she thinks dating has to feel corporate to be effective quote spontaneity is fun and

cool, but if you don't align with someone on basic core values, that relationship is inevitably going to come to a halt, she said. I mean, I agree with that statement, but like, your lady, your values are in a different fucking galaxy than mine. When I think about what's cool about sex, I think it should feel like a meeting with HR. Well, this is what I mean, like, corporate and dating are two different poles and like, and nary the two should cross. This is not I mean about like, I don't know, like, the value system that I find like so alienating, especially when I see young people exhibiting signs of it is like work, jobs, making money.

Yeah. You can't really have a life without them, right? Yeah, but there also, if anyone finds that to be the meaning of life or maps that onto the things that are actually fulfilling about life. But the point is like good friends, a lover, you know, like, you are lost. And like the point is that like you have to do those things so that you have the freedom in the hours that you're not working to like actually live your life. Yes.

And like, it really disturbs me, especially when I, like, can remember, among young people, the values that are given voice to that seem to regard like anything that's not working a job or not making money as like an essentially waste of time. It's a fact to be trimmed. Yeah, exactly. And that even dating is like, oh, I need, I need my love life to be more like my job.

Well, and I'm looking for companionship, basically like someone who can increase my net worth. Knight created a spreadsheet that lets her friends weigh in via a friend's feedback tab. It came in handy when she combed through to see, come through it to see if any of the men she dated deserved another shot. She was tempted to reach out to one until she read her

friend's reminders that the guy made her talk to his mom on FaceTime during their second date. It's like you could have just remembered that yourself. Well, and again, like, they're trying to have it both ways, which is like you were on to something when you didn't like make a fourth date with them, right? Like, and she's

raking back over like, you know, like she's made decisions like in her emotional mind about like, there's a reason I didn't see this guy again. and she's pouring back over the data to second guess what she already knows. Darby Mulligan was fresh out of a long-term relationship when she first dipped her toes in the dating pool at age 21. You better learn what she liked. She began tracking everything from who reached for the bill to how good the sex was. Mulligan, now 26, saw patterns emerging.

Inspired by Spotify's wrapped feature, which gives users a yearly review of their listening habits, the marketing professional in Seattle created a dating wrapped slide deck in which she depicted her. data in a collection of charts and graphs. Then I was like, how do I make this more iconic? She said. The answer? An annual dating rapt party where dozens of friends gathered to see her yearly stats and snack on cupcakes adorned with cutouts of her ex's faces.

That is really upsetting. Also, like, what does that mean? What is the Spotify rap? You were brought to orgasm 29 times. You faked an orgasm 60 times. No, calm down. I don't know. Let's let's let's let's.

No, I'm saying, you know, this woman dating. Oh, right. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, my, no, I'm not saying my Spotify wrapped, uh, looked pretty good. Sorry, this became a horny episode, I guess. Uh, anytime I say the word sex, it's, it's a horny pod. And I apologize for that. Yeah, I'm sure our listeners are really upset about that. Yeah. Uh, last slide here says, last year she solicited videos from men she dated. While most ghosted, some actually sent clips. It's so cool to know yourself, one of her former suitors said in his video. It's almost like a personal history. What is to be done with Seattle and San Francisco? They're beyond saving.

It's just, I don't, it's just, I find it very upsetting. I just think it's willfully spurting, like, the actual ineffable things that make being alive worthwhile. And like, you know, those things are technically lost leaders in a capitalistic sense. you know, like going on a walk with someone you love, like I'm not making any money and that's the point. That's what makes it enjoyable, you know? Yeah. Anyway, Will and I get to get to a meeting about our startup.

Oh, Wombly. You know, we're seeking investors for the... I'm seeking angel investors. Yeah. We've got a couple regular investors, but I need those angel investors. Yeah, we got to have those angel investors. I need Y Combinator. Can I shout out one last story?

Yeah, please do. And I'll keep it brief, but just in Mayor Eric Adams News, I read this this morning from Hellgate. Oh, he's saying, you're in her neck of the woods now. Yeah, he's in my neck of the woods. He's in Wisconsin Rapids where they're pushing for a data center. And he's working, like, on behalf of the developer. It's very weird.

And, like, basically he went to this, like, community meeting and got totally shut down. Like, you know, which I love to see. Like, people were yelling at him. He was saying, no, AI. is good because it helped my friend diagnose her breast cancer. And someone was just like, is that story true? But one of the funniest details, and your listeners can maybe have some fun with this, unlike public documents, guess what his email these days is?

What? Mayor Eric Adams at g-bill.com. So our eternal mayor... I think it's like one of those things, like, even if you're an ex-president, people still call you Mr. President. Don't really think it's that way at all. also say the fuck out of my... His honor.

Yeah, say the fuck out of my state. I saw that story in Hillgate and like the comment I made on it is like, if you're a proponent of data centers, if you want to see them build, you think they're good for whatever reason. I don't know. I'm open to her arguments of this sort.

But like, how come you can't get anyone other than like the biggest crook ever in like... Who will take money from like any country. Yeah. Yeah. Wisconsin Rep is just the Istanbul of data centers. And it's sort of like when I keep seeing Alan Dershowitz on TV being like,

we've got to stop this anti-Semitism in America. It's like, if you're, like, and I mean this like sincerely, if you're a Zionist, like, you got to find a better spokesman. Can you find a better spokesman? Like, do you, like, if you're a Zionist, do you really want Alan Dershowitz on TV arguing your case for you all the time?

The obscene guy who, I'm sorry, is a caricature. Oh, like, also like, Russell Simmons came out last week and was like everyone should be Zionist. Like, Jewish people are just like black people and we should sympathize with them. It really shows you. Because you can, like, Could you maybe get a better spokesperson than a guy who's not living in Bali to, like, skate on, like, multiple sexual assault and rape charges?

It really shows the, like, no moral person or, like, any upstanding person. Even any likable person is able to stand up in front of a crowd and be like, yeah, let's train the water. I mean, like, he's a crackpot online, but, like, you know, as far as I know, Deborah Messing from Willing Grace doesn't have, like, multiple rape charges against her. Or she wasn't best friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Can't she get out there on the news to, like, pitch the case for why Israel's good and why hating it makes you an anti-Semite?

She's doing it on Twitter. I know, but like... And it has cratered her brand. You know, any affection people used to have for like, oh, I love Grace from the show Will and Grace. Like, now she's ruined it by being a virile in Zionist. If you're trying to fight anti-Semitism... I think the point here is that none of these people

are actually trying to fight anti-Semitism. In fact, they're trying to stir it up. Well, I said, like, how could I conclude anything otherwise other than, like, Alan Dershowitz is still your go-to guy? I mean, I'm sorry. I don't want to say something. Everybody, I'm the lawyer that was... best friends are the world's most prolific

pimp and rapist. That's not even getting into all of my other famous legal cases where I helped rich men kill their wives. Yeah, good Lord. Oh, nice little palis. Yeah, not sure how we land that plane, but have fun out there dating.

Yeah. Send us your dating insights. That's the next call out. If you have a dating spreadsheet. Yeah, with this, like, listeners, like, if you'd like to share some, like, non-AI-related ways, like, non-AI or app-related ways about like meeting people, a date that you had that went well

that you'd like to share? Yeah, if you don't have any insights that are driven by data, I would love to hear that. Yeah, and if you're using dating insights, I simply don't have anything to say to you.

Know thyself. Yes, know thyself through AI. Through spreadsheets. Yeah. I mean, like, I think I've, I think I've done a pretty good job in my life of like,

if I've arranged my life or if I've achieved, anything with my time here. It's that I have like set it up such that like I never look at a spreadsheet. Yes. I now will never do it. One of the things I'm most jealous about like Will's professional, you know, success is that like when he became free of email, like, you know, if, and I, you know, this is like

the socialist utopia that I think, you know, getting off the yoke of capitalism is like, you know, not having to check your email 50 times a day and respond in a timely manner to a boss. You know, and so this is like the emailification of your personal life. Yeah. That's all I got. All right. Send some emails. All right.

Well, I think we'll wrap it up there. That does it for today's episode. A reminder once again, live show in November, Society for Ethical Culture in NYC. Chunks. Chunks. Chunks, chunks, chunks.

Video on demand now available. And future Felix and Will and has a mini-series on the way soon. And I'd like to thank Catherine for filling in these past two episodes. Thank you for having me, really. number one number one most requested number one girlfriend that too

all right till next time everybody bye bye bye