Chapo Trap House - 424 - When Will They Shoot? (6/1/20)

Episode Date: June 2, 2020

We discuss the ongoing protests and subsequent police violence across America. Directory of community bail funds: https://www.communityjusticeexchange.org/nbfn-directory Split donation between 39 community bail funds: https://secure.actblue.com/donate/bail_funds_george_floyd

Hello everybody. It's Joppo. We're back. I guess it's the last time you heard from us. Things have gotten even more intense here in this country and the city we live in. New York is now currently under, not just an unofficial quarantine, but now is under an official curfew following three nights of continuing protests following the killing of George Floyd, which have now spread to virtually every city in this country. We were talking about this before and it's hard to find a historical analog for this level of protest in this country against the police and since, I don't know, probably 1968 after the King assassination. It's hard to find analogs for what's going on here in this country, but I think we should

just start listing off what has happened over the last couple of days. I mean, I'm just looking here. New York has been declared under a curfew. Many other major cities are. Another man in Louisville, Kentucky was shot and killed by the police today during a protest, David McAddy. We know from leaked audio today that Trump was on a conference call with state governors demanding that they crack down even harder and respond to protests about police violence and brutality with more police violence and brutality. I don't know where to begin. I just other than to say when things like this are discussed or talked about in the media or by politicians and they talk about violence spreading or these protests turning

violent or that there's some sort of threat to public safety, what they should be talking about is the police entirely because at every single level from what I've seen, it is the police who are causing violence and they are the threat to public safety. There is nothing about these protesters, even if you include vandalism or looting or destruction of property that would justify this kind of police response. We've all seen either with our own eyes or through videos, just images of cops, just, I don't know, pushing an old man with a cane into the ground, pepper spraying, children, firing rubber bullets, tear gas, just wading into crowds of people with batons who are otherwise had their hands up. I guess the

thing I just can't stop thinking about is obviously that this all exploded in a moment when I was already thinking like, yeah, I guess everyone's just sort of half decided that quarantine is sort of, people are sort of going to half-ass it or it just can't go on any longer. And now this is the thing where it's just like, quarantine's over now. We've shifted into an even newer paradigm now. And all I can think about is just like the weeks and months ago, talking to the Oakland nurse and just seeing images and pictures of how healthcare workers on the front lines of coronavirus fighting and helping people with this disease had to wear trash bags and reuse certain masks. And we're inadequately

prepared or we're just seemingly, we were unable to get them any of the equipment that they really needed to treat people and fight this disease. And then thinking about what I've seen over the last couple of days of just a phalanx of riot police in every city that are geared out, just kitted out top to bottom with all the equipment, gas masks, and like safety equipment that they need to be protected from protesters in the streets. And I think it really just kind of lays bare at the end of the day, you know, where all the money in our society goes, like who's it for and who it's there to protect. And it's not us. It certainly isn't nurses or doctors or healthcare workers. It's riot

cops. Like that's, yeah. Well, yeah, like so many things in America, it's a case of the victors winning and winning clearly and being angry about it. The past, I'd say 20 or 30 years of culture has just been this exercise in nonstop propaganda. Half of every fucking show on network TV and basic cable is about some hero, telegenic cop risking their lives, having some wholesome sexual tension, rescuing the world from sickos. They're the only people left in American public life who get any fucking money, any fucking new equipment. Look at everything else and then look at the cops in your city wherever you live in America. And still, they're not

even happy about that. They are. They are still the victims of the world. Everyone is still working against them, even though public opinion for the last 30 years for these decades is still is surprisingly kind to cops. They are just the greatest victims of the world. It's not even like they get paid shit. They get they get comparatively great salaries for public employees. They are never lacking for equipment or anything. They're the only people who during Corona, their budgets have grown steadily still while everything else is getting fucking cut and shredded through the meat grinder of austerity. And they just become more bitter and angrier and more violent.

It's just like in your town or city, just think how shitty the infrastructure or how bad the subways have gotten or just how shitty everything is at every level or how it's gotten or how nothing gets fixed or is old or needs to be replaced. And then just look at what the cops are like. Look at this shit they have. There's been like how many helicopters do they have? How many fucking tanks? And like I said, they seem to have all the shields, masks and fucking gear that they need to protect themselves from people with their hands in the air walking in the street in a downtown area. And everything else sucks. And I just like I just can't help but feel that this is like as the sort of like cordon of who

is a citizen or like who owns anything or who is really protected by the state just gets like tightened and tightened and tightened. It's like the police are the ones like making that cordon. And that's why, again, in the midst of like where everything else is getting slashed, the state budgets are getting, you know, destroyed by coronavirus, everything's being cut, they're being given more and more money. Because like that is the function of state that is left that the government cares about and wants to do. Like that is the function that they're willing to preserve and pay for is using the cops to like, yeah, like I said, sort of like cordon off a smaller and smaller area of who is protected or who is supported

or, you know, what even the state can do like as a state, like what its responsibilities are. And it's like, yeah, like protect the Chipotle's of like made downtown urban areas. And yeah, like shoot rubber bullets at fucking people in the street. Well, part of it is because it's the own, the reason that's the only public service that gets any funding is because it's the only public service that the wealthy still require that has not been basically privatized for them by virtue of their wealth and their ability to create parallel infrastructure for their own parallel healthcare systems, parallel everything, transportation, compounds, but the function of security is still necessary

to maintain whatever passive income streams that they have. So that's the last remaining public service that they still need. And so surprise, surprise, it's the last one that actually gets any money behind it. Although we'll see how long that lasts. I mean, if we're going to talk about bright spots in this past weekend, I mean, in Minneapolis, you have seen Minneapolis Public Schools and U of M cut their contracts with MPD. I mean, that's a drop in the bucket for what is needed to really take the boot off of the back of people's skulls, but that is somewhat encouraging. Just going to Matt's point of see how long that lasts.

I mean, I can think of another bright spot of some like small acts of like solidarity like here in New York, where like the unionized bus drivers refused to drive people to the central booking or prison. After they kettled and rounded up a bunch of protesters, there were bus drivers who refused to drive the bus to where they were being going to be held or taken to. So that's good. But I just like, you know, like on the most the previous episode we did, right? I brought up our Matt and I's conversation with Vincent Bevin's about, you know, like the right-wing coup and genocide in Indonesia, but like not to directly compare like what's going on in America to that. But like just the idea of like he said, like

accusing the people you're attacking of doing the thing you're doing or creating some sort of inciting incident to do what you've always wanted to do. And then like, you know, and then essentially making it so in every media account or official statement, it seems like you're the victim. So in like the imagination of a public that's like, you know, scared or confused or like doesn't know what to do, like it seems justified in some sick way. But also what he spoke about, like living in a country where like power is totally in the open. It's like it's seen in a way that's like really ugly. And like you can't lie to yourself about it. And you either sort of like become complicit in it because you

don't want to be the one on the other end of that, you know, gun, be it firing rubber bullets or real ones or not. You know, and I just think like Matt, like, you know, years ago when you just talked about like the metaphor of like the T-800, like the flesh just like being ripped and melting off of it. And what's being left is just this like the gleaming red eyes of this like steel skull just looking at us. I mean, we, it was, it was, what was it a month ago that a U.S. Senator when asked, Hey, you know how like 40% of people don't have jobs and you gave people a $1,200 check and you got any other plans? People really need stuff. And he said, people in hell need ice water. So, and that's what we have been

living with is, is the slow, steady realization that the only remaining ability that the state has, the only remaining function, because it sure as shit can't protect people from a viral outbreak. It can't provide a safety net in the event of an economic collapse and it sure as shit can't handle both at once, but it can put a fucking knee on your neck until you die if, if you are in the wrong place and they're pissed at you. And at the speaking to the point of projection, iron on the first night of protests in Minneapolis, the exact thing happened that happened in Ferguson, which is you had a, a peaceful protest that was met with rubber bullets and pepper bat balls and all that shit. And then the next

night people got violent because they were, they were taught to do that by the police, the police saying, we are not going to respect you. We're not going to respect your, your right to protest or, or a descent from this. We're going to punish you for having the temerity to do so, which really does very quickly reduce your options. If you don't want to just go back home, because what are you going to go back to? I mean, my God, something like 30% of people, of people, of, of, of poor people in this country who had a job lost it in the last month. What, what the fuck are you supposed to do? Uh, there's, there's an article that I was thinking of. Um, I think it's just called

authoritarian neoliberalism by this guy Ian Bruth. His argument is that we spent a lot of time sort of framing this era of capitalism as sort of, you know, markets run amuck. And um, you know, the absence of the states and, uh, you know, markets replacing the state and all that. But his argument is like, that's not actually true at all. Uh, one of the differences between now and say like sort of, you know, earlier forms of capitalism is that the state is, we have a, a, a state that does plan tons of things. It just only creates, um, the conditions that, um, you know, nurture and encourage certain markets. So you couldn't say that like we have like a, you know, some sort of libertarian free market, you know, ideal

or, or anything of operating now because the state is very functional when it, when it comes to stuff like, um, arming the police or, um, you know, facilitating think tanks and NGOs as sort of extra governmental, well as extra governmental governments. What we have is actually a very complicated, very authoritative, very orchestrated political system. This isn't just, you know, uh, everything is run amuck. Like it's very much by design. I don't know. It just, it just made me think of that article where it's like, you know, we spend all this time sort of thinking of the, the boogeyman of sort of, you know, free market libertarianism and things like that. And it's like, no, like everything is pretty planned.

We're just planning and encouraging truly terrible things. And, and in, you know, looking at all this and what we've been seeing in sort of like people's reactions to it, um, particularly, um, in the political sphere, it seems like both Republicans and Democrats have really sort of coalesced around this line that like there's, it's just like, there's some outside factor that's causing all of this and it just choose your boogeyman there. And, or like, uh, it's just like there's something to explain this other than like the people doing it. And I guess for like the Republicans, obviously it's like, if you're like a manga person, it's, it's George Soros, it's, it's Antifa

and, you know, Trump, uh, just declare that, uh, Antifa is a terrorist organization. Um, and then I guess like if you're the Democrats, um, it's, it's sort of like the, uh, it's outside agitators or like sort of white anarchists or brocholists or whatever who are like making, causing the violence that's like leading to a worse crackdown and like, and sort of hijacking these protests, or even more perverse, I've just like the Russiagate people have gone like all in on like, not just to protest themselves, but just, I guess the phenomenon of police violence and racism in America itself is some sort of like planned act by Putin to like foment civil unrest in America. And I was just like, what are the, is the FSB like training

these cops themselves and then hiring them? Uh, one guy claimed that. Yeah. Yes. So that would mean, that would be the Minnesota PD. That would mean Amy Klobuchar is also complicit in this by, you know, she had the guy who did this killing in her site and didn't prosecute him. I've been thinking a lot about like the white anarchist thing because that seems to be the subtle thing. Like, did you see the mayor of Seattle speak out against white men while also claiming that, uh, the Seattle PD turned off their bodycams because they're against surveillance states. Give this woman a fucking award for just being the worst piece of shit

for just combining all of it. Like amazing. But I mean, the thing that's so, yeah, I mean, like, I'm sure there are cases, like there are cases in all protests, like throughout like recent history, all the time of like individual, like, yeah, fucking goofy guys pretending to be whatever, uh, committing property damage against like, you know, family owned businesses and stuff. And there are videos of like black protesters, white protesters being like, Hey, fucking stop that. Like, but if you look at these protests and these riots and the scale of them, how many of those guys in America do you think there are? How fucking organized do you think there are? And also like to get in the liberal mindset

of where you're convinced just everything about this this past weekend that you think is bad optics is them. You think it's bad because they cause property damage and that causes a state overreaction. Well, what did have, did a fucking, did a goofy white anarchist, uh, flagged down George Chauvin before, before he fucking killed George Floyd because this shit happened, happens regardless. Even if you had a hundred fucking videos of just noodle armed fucking morons that you could point to your amorphous, your amorphous white anarchists, it's everywhere. These abuses are still happening regardless. They're still killing, they're still killing fucking poor people are still killing black people all

the fucking time regardless of this. The state reaction happens regardless. It's just, it's just a way to, it's a way to have a different thing to talk about. It's a way to have, have it so you don't have to deliver anything to people at all. Yeah. And I think people get caught up trying to obsess over like who is doing what and what is justifiable and what is a legitimate this and what is an illegitimate that on both like the left and the right. And I think that's really wrongheaded because like one, there's never, ever been like a like large protest in a major city that didn't have like police embedded in it. Like that's just going to happen too. There's never, ever been a major

protest in a major city that didn't have like idiot cranks in it. And the idea that you're going to go through and be like, well, if you're trying to figure out what you can justify or try to justify everything bar none or whatever, like it doesn't make any sense to even think about it that way. It doesn't even make sense. People, people keep talking about like support the riots, support looting, don't support the riots, don't support looting, support riots, don't support looting. Like it's just like what, what combination or permutation that this is. But the thing about like riots and looting is that they are not something, no matter who instigates them, they are not something that, well, I guess they can be

when the cops instigate them. But they're not something that are sort of like planned as some kind of a strategy, their response to something. So saying like, oh, they're good, oh, they're bad. That's just like saying like boiling water is good or bad. It's like, look, the water gets to a certain temperature and it will fucking boil. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing. When you get obsessed with finding every fucking recording of every looting, you talk yourself into these impossible positions that you can't get out of where you're like, okay, so if it's a video of what mostly white people looting, that's, that's illegitimate. But when it's a video of black people looting, either it's legitimate

or like they were tricked by some widely anarchists, they were fooled. Yeah. Yeah. Or a cop or whatever. Or, you know, and if you see like a, you know, a rush on target and like there's a black person stealing XYZ or a white person stealing a, you know, like a Star Wars Lego set or something like that, you go through and you're trying to like take inventory of like what is a legitimate action and what's this person's motivation and is this just, it's like, that's, we are so far past that because riots aren't, riots and looting erupts. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a, it's not a, it's not like a planned thing. So don't get caught up. This isn't a, this isn't a tactic or a strategy. That's not how it happens. Just don't even worry about like the, this is, this is outside moral

endorsement or condemnation. This is what happens to people when they are faced with unbelievable cruelty and oppression is that eventually this should explode. Yeah. So going through the actual event of it and trying to figure out, you know, like what, what is good, what is bad, like that completely misses the point is that this is the result of something. This is not some kind of like activist agenda. This is like an eruption of like pain and suffering. Yeah. And also like, I mean, just to, just to reiterate it, like also don't worry about it because it's not a threat to public safety. Like it's like these, these people are not going house to house, like murdering people or like destroying people's homes or whatever. It's like vandalism

of police cars or like looting a target and like, or like maybe some small businesses get damaged. Like to reiterate what I said at the beginning, the threat to public safety is the presence of the police. And as Matt said, like there, like another reason you can't get too caught up in this is because like there will never, ever be a protest like these in which anyone will say, oh, like they're doing it the right way or like these people did it the right way. Or it's like, they should have done this or X, Y or, or that or like, why don't, why don't these people, oh, like, you know, they're, they're harming their own communities. And then like, well, then they go to like, like the other neighborhood and then they're like, oh, like this is horrible.

Like they're destroying our, our, our stores or whatever. Like it's, it's never going to be considered like, like I said, when, when peaceful protest itself is met with tear gas, batons, rubber bullets, and even more police violence and brutality, this is an inevitability and it may even be a necessity. But yeah, like it's just, it is not a threat to public safety. Like the, the, the, we, the public, the people in the streets, like they are threatened by the police and the people they serve and our elected representatives. Like that, that is the threat is these cops and they're, and they're fucking riot gear and tear gas and guns and batons and fucking everything. The most infuriating thing to me has been that rioting is seen as like a deliberate plan, strategic act by people. Whereas

conscious responses by the state, collective punishment, like in Chicago, uh, suspending Chicago public schools, meal distribution, which is already just like a fucking pitiful austere replacement for what should actually be in place. Uh, and testing sites in Los Angeles that Garcetti suspended, these collective punishments for people, those are just seen as natural consequences. That's just what the, that's just what your nice democratic mayor or governor does to you as a biological response to rioting, which is always planned and done in order to, what, to harm everyone? Right, right. It's like, there's a bunch of people in front of like a diagram being like, you know, a city diagram being like, and this is the cop car we're going to set

on fire. And this is like, for fuck's sake, like, don't you understand, like, uh, it's not a spontaneous outburst in, in the sense that like people just pop it, but it is an organic outburst. It's, it's a chemical reaction. It's human behavior. Like this is what happens when you treat people this way. Yeah. And, and the other, the other weird thing that's going on, I guess, like from, from the, uh, like, like democratic or liberal side of the spectrum, like I'm thinking of the Minneapolis mayor or our own mayor of right here in New York City, Bill de Blasio, or just like the general, like the, the speed with which like the, the, I guess like democratic or liberal media has coalesced around this idea that like the real problem here are like, you know, people

from outside the community who are coming in and instigating violence. And then like also sec, as a secondary caveat to that, like maybe also the cops too, is I think what's happening is that like they're in this, this straight jacket where because these, these protests and, and, and uprisings are essentially about racial justice and like the pain of black people, like they can't condemn that, obviously not. But I think they've realized that it might help Trump in the election. So they have to have it like a reason or an excuse for why they are now going to be in charge of managing the crackdown on it. Because it's like, that's the thing. It's just like, we know, we know what Trump and the Republicans are saying,

like Tom Cotton was just listing off like military units who wanted to deploy in America right now to in his words show no quarter to the protesters, i.e. killing them. Trump on this call with the governor says that, you know, you need to send people away for 10 years for, for, for doing this. And then like, you know, the violence will go away. He says, of course, we will activate Bill Barr and we will activate him strongly. They're just keeping, they're just keeping this fat old man in stay. So it's like, but like, you know, but if you think about like, like the Blasio who's supposed to be like, as liberal a mayor as, as is possible to have, who by the way is hated by the NYPD, what is he doing? He's fucking out there making excuses for them as well.

It's just like, he's like, they're, they're saying the right words, but they're managing the same nightmarish authoritarian crackdown on their citizens, like the residents of their cities, their, these communities, like are their fellow, their constituents, but the Blasio's own daughter was arrested at a protest last night. And by the way, when I was thinking of DeBungler, you know, he, yeah, he's out there handling this about as badly as you could imagine, but still trying to say the right words. A couple of years ago, it came out that the NYPD is like, like personal forums in which cops talk to each other. Some of those chats were leaked and they were like among themselves talking and joking openly about killing his family, Mayor de Blasio, and he's still out there fucking

kissing their ass. And like I said, when you think about that and these budgets and shit, like they're like, they could not be getting more fucking money from state and city budgets right now. And it's just like, it's frightening to think it's like, think of it as a sign of like, well, who's, who's really in control of city government? And I mean, I mean, I mean, who's really in control of, especially a big city like New York is the fucking developers and real estate companies because, because the last safe resort for investment in the last 10 years in the world basically has been urban real estate. And so these cities just exist to sink money into for the global elite to like keep it so that they can get it later. And that necessitates a robust

police system to maintain those property values. And so that means that those cops, the cops are way more in charge of the city, way more connected to the actual like mechanisms of power in the city than the fucking mayor or any elected official. Is there basically mascots? Okay, here's another thing I'm talking about, like the political response and just like the perversity of, it's going to get, we need to defeat this at the ballot box. Just a few comments from Joe Biden today. Speaking overall about what's going on, he says here, speaking of a police training, he said, instead of standing there and teaching a cop when there's an unarmed person coming at him with a knife or something, to shoot him in the leg instead of the heart is a very

different thing. I think we're going to be okay guys. Don't worry about it. This is, yeah, like this is the way to stop this right wing authoritarian nightmare we're living in is the Democrats who will of course, they'll say the word the community and then suggest that the police just shoot you in the leg instead of the head when you're protesting. What do you say? It just, it all seems quite inadequate. I'm just imagining these just ham fingered cops trying to learn how to like do trick shots on people like, like bouncing bullets off the pavement or something. Yeah, they literally can't shoot anyway. Yeah. What if they're fingers through the fucking trigger guard? I mean, the interesting, I was thinking about this with Biden and it is true,

he is, in terms of like what people actually need, which this country actually deserves, he is woefully unequipped in every way, both in the way that his brain is just like a fuck, just, it's a piece of linoleum with dried dog come on it. He just can't, he gets to defend his and behaves as though he's in a hedge maze that he can't escape from. And just that he's actually behind a lot of the policies that we are seeing in action now and we have seen for the past few decades, he just, he presents a completely antiquated and reactionary at the time that he entered public life point of view. But for who the new Democratic Party is, which is suburbanites who will maybe say some peons towards black lives matter or some very mild criticism of police

brutality, but their main thing is they don't want this to touch the suburbs that they in fact do not ever want to think about this. They don't want to see this dominate the news. They never, ever want it to become this close to them, even though they're still incredibly safe. Biden is electorally, electorally the man for this moment, at least for the Democratic Party. We'll see how it plays nationally. And ultimately, they have just these stupid like, Identitarian and, you know, Kumbaya and all of this, like solutions, more women cops, more black cops, like they have the fucking basically sensitivity trainings. And it's like, why do you think people become cops? Like, I'm sure there is someone who, you know,

you know, loves the Andy Griffith show, not in the NYPD, not in the NYPD. I'm sure that person, I'm sure, I'm sure, I'm sure there's a sweet, you know, naive young man who, you know, I'm going to be one of the good ones or whatever. But the attractive part of being a cop, like it automatically, it is a self-selecting career for psychos. And the idea, yeah, if you are the nice cop, like literally you go to jail, by the way, for like reporting on, on police brutality, which has happened multiple times. Like police whistleblowers, police whistleblowers get bad things happen to them. Yeah, they get killed by other cops. They literally get killed by other cops. And just the sense that like, well, why don't we take away

the thing that makes that job attractive to psychopaths entirely? Like starting with guns is probably a pretty good, disarming the police is a pretty good early fucking reform. Yeah. And no, I know, I'm like, Amber, I was just, you know, thinking about all this, because like, you know, like, eventually, this is going to die down. And then like the question is, like, what are we left with then? Like, you know, what will have been accomplished? And like, I think people at a certain level are realizing that like, there, there are no real reforms to like policing in this country. Like as we've seen, because this has been going on for years now, we've had the good president preside over similar things happening, and nothing's changed. And if

anything, it's gotten worse. And I think if there's like, in a short term demand to come out of this, it has got to be starting with a massive dis, disinvestment from like state security apparatuses, and like put all of that money back into, but into the budget that they would otherwise be spending to like settle lawsuits with people that they've killed or fucking beaten up, and put that money back into the fucking cities and these towns and states themselves. And then, but then first and foremost, as you said, take their fucking guns away. Number one, first and foremost, then then massively cut back on their budgets and staffing too. I'm sorry. There are countries that have police forces that are not armed. Like it fuck and I know they're like,

well, America has so many guns. Actually, like gun control has been pretty effective. Like in New York City. So the idea that like, they're just going to be gunning down cops is like completely fucking insane. There aren't like a million guns just floating around anyway. And like, whatever, I think in Ireland, they keep, they keep a gun in the trunk or whatever, but they don't walk around. Don't quote me on that one. But they don't walk around strapped, like literally walking around with a gun strapped to you, changes your entire attitude towards the people around you. That's just you have a murder weapon on you. Yeah. Like it's a part of your toolkit of daily use. That is insane. And it further just inculcates this mentality that cops hate everyone who's not

a cop. They think of them as weaker than them or a threat to them. And the neighborhoods that they work in or what their job entails, it becomes more and more like a military occupation. And I think that's what we're seeing with these tactics of like, sending in the tanks to protect the sort of rich, like urban cores and like the property that's owned there from people, like policing itself is going to become more and more like a like, yeah, like the Iraq or something where there's just like an army holding a kind of city center and like sort of patrolling out from these kind of green zones to, yeah, like, you know, terrorize the local populations of these places. And like the first and foremost, like that begins with the cop and the gun that they carry.

And I'm sorry, like that you could, you could have like, quote unquote, law enforcement and public safety carried out by people who are not armed with a lethal weapon all the time. It would make a job. Maybe not everything involves calling the police. Anyway, it would make there's certain things that like you can deal with without the fucking police. But you would need some sort of public like sector with other jobs than cop. Yeah, you would need, you would need, you would need basically like if you had like, say a social work concern, we would need a social work like force, essentially. Yeah, yeah. Like if you had concern about like, like a child was being abused or neglected or, you know, domestic thing, you should be able to call someone who isn't like armed to

the fucking teeth because to a man with a hammer, like Jesus Christ. Yes, we give the, but we give his compromise, we give the social workers crossbows though. They get tasers. Yes. It's another really weird thing. I mean, just going back to this idea of like, it seems to be like this, like this, this gelling consensus about how like, like the black, black people in these communities have like, you know, a right to demonstrate like their pain and anger about what's happened. But it's like, it's these white anarchists or like, you know, rich kids who are coming in and causing problems. It just seems to be like there's this weird thing where like,

they want like, sort of like racially segregated protests or that like, like white protesters are like inherently suspicious, like in a need to like, or like a quite justifiable desire to demonstrate like solidarity and like shared humanity with like, our fellow citizens and neighbors and things like that, that like, there's something inherently suspicious about sort of cross racial solidarity around an issue that is, you know, for the most part, a black issue. Like, I mean, they're liberals. Well, first of all, it's not either. Like, it is disproportionately a black issue. But like, God knows the police shoot like fucking white meth heads at the middle of nowhere, homeless people, you know, mentally ill people, like, please just fucking shoot people.

Yeah. But like, like, it's not just that it is not only a black issue. It's like, the idea that, you know, there should be like, no like cross racial solidarity is very part and parcel to their kind of stay in your lane idea of like, intersectionality and identity politics and all of these things where it's like, well, really, they can speak for themselves. And it's like, actually, this is like one situation where you are just clearly indicating that you are willing to let black people hang out to dry. Yeah. Also, it totally undermines the most important element of like, I agree completely that there's that trying to trying to put moral values on different elements of these uprisings is absurd because they were spontaneous. I mean, sure, were there police

provocations involved? Probably. Are there adventurous weirdos showing up? Sure. Are there guys in hula shirts for some reason? Probably. But all of that attempt to like find the hidden hand is a reflection of the basic discomfort people have with the implication of this is something that just happened. Yeah. And now it's now it's happening. But if it's going to mean anything, if it's going to be the beginning or part of a process that that builds up meaningful capacity to oppose not just police violence, but the system that police violence protects, then these protests are going to have to involve way more than just black people. And that in the process of the protesting, the hope and the chance here is that that very act creates new connections that didn't

persist to exist beforehand, and new strategies, new tactics, new organizing forms that then can become part of whatever movement is going to come after this. And Matt, to your point about everyone is sort of seeking out, yeah, they're looking for the hidden hand behind everything. And you know, if you're like the like the MAGA QAnon people, the hidden hand is apparently, as I've seen recently, apparently the lead singer of the band, The National, and also the guy and also the guy who used to host Cash Cab on the Discovery Channel. Apparently, he's getting work now as a crisis actor now that that show isn't on TV anymore. And you know, like I said, if you're if you're a Democrat or liberal, like, you know, we've discussed what, you know, what

sort of hidden vector you're looking for. But it just I have to say this, though, about that, about the Q people and Ben Burgess, this Cash Cab guy. Q people love squinting at a picture of person assuming it's the other person on a different person, you know, JFK Jr. that weird hobo who shows up at MAGA rallies and the Pope and Frank Sinatra and Frank Sinatra. This time, I will give them credit. That piece of shit cop, he does actually kind of look like Ben Burgess. For the first time, they've actually got someone who plausibly has this even similar head shape. Yeah, of course, it's just sort of a dude who kind of looks like him. I love your thing about Q things is like, they think the biggest indict like the biggest proof

that the world is run by like reptilians is that they're just reusing like people who hosted a game show. They weren't they wanted anyone else, but he was the only guy who applied for the job. I love the idea of like that cop arrest you at a protest and like, you know, pepper sprays you, tases you, throws you in the back of a patty wagon and then like your head hits the fucking floor of the car and then like a bunch of lights go off and he's like, okay, what are the following is the tallest peak in North America? Go. How did the national one even fucking start? I couldn't get I couldn't figure that one out. I think that's just like, I don't know, like you drop the cigarette you on the plastic covers you keep over your couch. I'm just astounded that a

bunch of like 75 year old suburban retirees know what the national is. Yeah. Well, that's what like a rich Q nonperson. That's what their kid listens to. Q or the national makes music for like guys who own pool $500 jackets and sit in their outies. So that's like those are the kids of the boat dealers. Going back to my original point about how everyone's looking for this like the hidden hand and influence pulling the strings behind these these protests is like they're looking for the hidden hand on both sides of the political spectrum because the actual hand of like state authority and what it's doing is right in front of your fucking face, balling itself into a fist and slamming it into your face repeatedly. Right. It's an excuse not to look up. Look side to side.

Be suspicious of everyone who's maybe on your level. Just never look up. Never look at where this might have come down come from. Never look towards like the authorities that have instigated this entire chain reaction. And it's I think it's an interesting inversion of what conspiracy theories have typically been in modern American political life. Conspiracy theories often they're just like the province of people who have no power because most of the time like people can kind of figure out who's fucking them over. They have a pretty good idea of it because no one hides it. It's right out in the open and everyone's just like fucking dabbing on you. They're like, yeah, do something about a pussy. So you have to come up with these elaborate schemes

for like why everything's so shitty. Why just everything in your life fucking sucks. Why everything is so grim and hopeless. And you get to, you know, sometimes very interesting things like reptilians or the La Roche stuff. But the function is the same. It is that you have to feel like you're in charge in some ways because you were able to figure out the grand plan that's hidden. They hid it from you and you found it. But now, now that everything's collapsing, now that we are definitely seeing like sort of the sunset on the American empire and Americans actually buy incredible numbers, not take the shit that we're used to them taking, that we're seeing the collapse of these systems, a lot of things coming to head. Not saying that we're absolutely going

to get a great perfect outcome out of everything, but that is I think assuredly what's happening in the broad strokes. The people in power have to create a conspiracy theory that that isn't happening. That this isn't just a result of hollowing out everything to a fucking rhyme. That this is a result of them just letting police power go unchecked, letting people's lives just be these miserating fucking horrible, joyless, dour affairs that this is what you get. They're scrambling for an explanation. They're scrambling for an explanation which does not inculcate the system that benefits them. Yeah. Just repeat myself just a little bit. Just think about the conditions of the last three months leading up to this in quarantine

where it could not be more obvious to everyone. It's just like, okay, we're all going to try to do our best to shelter in place or not go outside as much as possible for public safety measures because we have to fight this disease, but it's just like the state itself, like the government, could not more obviously be uninterested in saving the life of your grandmother or giving you even the barest level of help even after they've told you you can't go to work and have to stay inside and you don't have any money and you've all just lost your jobs. We're going to give you a check for $1,200 and nothing else. Then you look outside today and these fucking 10,000 of the most hot dog-necked, Oakley-wearing morons somehow are walking around and just

kitted out with the state-of-the-art gear at the drop of a hat to stop you from walking down the middle of the street with your hands up. They got the laser gun from Predator on their fucking shoulders. Yeah, like a fucking drones in the sky, helicopters everywhere, just like, you know, it can overnight turn your neighborhood or city into like a fucking armed encampment, but like there's just, it could not be more obvious that they're completely uninterested in giving you like any help or assistance to like just like live or like treat an illness or just fucking have any basic assistance to like live your life under these conditions. Right, you told people like George Floyd, stay inside, like, sorry, I mean like maybe you'll get $1,200 if

our computer works. Sorry. You should stay inside though because we don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the healthcare infrastructure or any other type of infrastructure to actually take care of people. So the only thing we're going to do is we're going to tell you to stay inside, we're going to make cute little graphics for it. Every company that fucking rips you off, that makes products shittier than any other time in your life, things that fall apart, pieces of shit, a few things that we do actually make in this country, they're going to make cute little ads for you about how we're all in this together, even though we're not. And people like George Floyd, they did their part, just out of some residual sense of community that the people who are abused

in America still have out of some kindness towards other people. Yes, no, we'll stay inside, we will make sure this disease doesn't spread to immunocompromise and old people and fucking kill them. And no, like, yeah, no, just some fucking dumb piece of shit, half realtor, half cop, just fucking kills them for being black anyway. Yeah, you wonder why and you have to invent fucking conspiracy theories for why this is happening, for why there are fucking riots everywhere. Even Americans, you can only fucking push them around so much. Well, that's it. They had us in a nice zone for the most part. They had people, we have these massive military outlays to police to provide a sense of just intimidation

at every level. And then even though things were shitty and getting shittier, there was still a baseline of comfort that most Americans had that gave them an awareness of something to lose. And three months of, oh yeah, you're all fired and your grandma's dead and no one gives a shit. And there is no plan to make any of this right. There's no way, there's no, you can no longer, it is harder and harder to believe that there's anything that you have now that you're gonna have even a few months from now. Like the idea that you have anything that you can hold on to and that it's not worth risking, that's going away because you see how it's slipping through your hands so much faster than it used to, you can no longer ignore that if I stand still,

this is going away anyway. At least I could fucking assert some goddamn humanity in the face of this thing first. Like I said, they killed him for a bad, passing a bad $20 bill. That's what they'll kill you for. And then they give you nothing, they give you nothing else they take everything away from you and then they'll kill you for passing a bad $20. Yeah, it's like you definitely, there's definitely a reason that you should have investment in ideas like private property and the sanctity of law and a window that there's a reason we can't don't break windows. Why? What's the reason we don't break windows? What does it do for any of us other than keep property values up for people who don't even

fucking live anywhere near us? People are rapidly approaching the nothing to lose area. Yeah. I have like literally no idea what's going to happen. That's the crazy thing because like, I mean, what I've been feeling all weekend is this kind of contraction and expansion of seeing people asserting humanity, seeing people just saying fuck this shit and being inspired by it, but then imagining just the response. It's because I have, I kind of think that a lot of these like precinct takeovers and moments where the cops, where all of a sudden the cops are gone and stuff gets burned down. These seem like they very well could be strategic retreats meant to justify the

untrammeled level of violence that the police are just waiting to unleash. Or the National Guard in military now too. Right. And the question of whether they're going to get away with that is the degree to which people accept the notion that there is something illegitimate about protesting because it might involve rioting. It might involve property destruction. It might be disruptive and that therefore people who are doing protests are, maybe they have it coming when they take, when they put live ammo in the guns. And so that's why this is what we have right now is as much as it was not directed by any program as much as it's not part of like an umbrella of

organizations that are collaborating. That's what makes it challenging to talk about things like goals when it is a relatively spontaneous coming together of people across places. But since it's happening, I mean, my God, you have to fucking support it. It is entirely incumbent because the degree to which they're going to put this down is the degree to which they think they can get away with it. If they think, if we shoot a few more protesters, does that scare them away or does that bring more people out? If there is a turning away, if there is a, I deny these people because there's problematic elements of whatever, that's going to make it easier for them to do. Yeah, that is the big question in my mind is, you know, I began by talking about like it's hard

to think of like another moment in American history where something like this has happened. And, you know, I can only go back to 1968 and what, like I said, what happened after the King assassination. And, you know, if what we're seeing from people here is like, if not unprecedented in American history, then at least in the recent past, like something new or different or happening at an intensity or at a widespread level that we haven't seen before, then, you know, the response to that is also going to be perhaps as intense or unprecedented. And we know for sure that like, well, we know we're living under a completely right-wing government. Like, we know what Trump thinks about this. We know what the people around him would like to do and are openly talking about,

which is like I said, deploying the U.S. military in this country to, like I said, attack or its own citizens who are asserting their humanity. And they're just very basic right to exist and express anger at their, you know, like I said, sadistic cruelty and oppression being carried out against them. And that is like the horrifying question is when and if they decide to load the live ammunition and what's going to happen if they do. So everybody who sees what's happening, everybody who knows that this, that they, everyone who can see what, how this plays out if we, if this is allowed to, to be suppressed, they have to ask themselves what they're willing to do themselves to prevent that from happening.

And at this point, that's scary. And that's why people get obsessed with like, figuring out an ethics and figuring out whether what, what, what is, what should my moral position versus this be because they don't want to do the wrong thing. But the thing is nobody knows what that is. Nobody knows what to do other than to, to be there, to do what you can. The one thing that I would say though, is that we have to think past the point of, like we, we do have to think what is going to be strategy because again, like protest is the strategy, but it has historically not been a very effective one. Like riots, looting, things like that, they've happened, but like nothing happened after the Watts riots. Like

nothing good. Like they didn't win. It wasn't better for them afterwards. They had a, a righteous anger and, and, and it was a rational response. But that is your, your response to something isn't the same thing as, as building something. So I just wonder what's going to happen when this stuff dies down. Is everything just going to keep happening again? Like there has to, there has to, like we should be looking at Watts. I mean, they, they had a commission afterwards and they were like, okay, actually what caused this was high unemployment, not enough housing, poor healthcare. I mean, they did studies and they, they're like, oh, apparently, you know, a whole bunch of other economic and, and subsequent social issues are contributing to

the sort of unrest that produces, you know, that we only notice when it, when it becomes an actual riot, that's the only time people notice. So it was formally acknowledged that this is why this happened. And, you know, police violence was, was, was the, you know, the, the instigating event. But it was the instigating event that, you know, was on top of all of these other things that have been building and building and building. So it was formally acknowledged that there were all of these problems and they, they, they're like, this is why this happened. And then they didn't do anything recommended in the report. I think you're right. And I mean, like, yeah, that's what I fear is that like, like what's going to happen is like people are going to get less and less of everything

except for more, except for bigger and bigger police departments. Cause like I said, like, and, and politically our options are a, a right wing party that is going to be just openly authoritarian, militaristic and, and racist in like ginning up this violence and supporting it. And a left wing or democratic party that is, will manage the exact same function of oppression, but in a way that sounds like they're, like they're saying the nice words, but essentially are managing the same process that like is, is hoovering up all the money in public good and, and giving it to like a tiny and tinier group of people. And like I said, cordoning off like who is inside like the American political life or like citizenry

and guarding it from the, like a bigger and bigger number of people. And like it really, like I said, like what Joe Biden said about like just shoot him in the legs or whatever, or like I said, the nice sounding democratic mayors who are presiding over these police forces who were doing all of the killing. Like they're both, they're auditioning to manage the same process of yeah, like, like just this horrible contraction of like money and possibility as like, you know, property and possibility are just hoovered up by the capital consolidates in itself in such a way and just sort of, you know, like I said, creates a wall around itself that is includes fewer and fewer and fewer people that need to be protected

for more and more and more people. I would say that the hope I have that, that this is not going to be a Watts remake is one with, this is an unprecedented crisis moment. I mean, in terms of, I mean, the economy is collapsed and it's not going to be uncollapsed anytime soon. There is still a pandemic happening as much as it was easy to forget that this week. And also that this is persisting that even that in instances like the path in the recent past, when you've had this kind of situation, there becomes a point when once, once the property damage starts, once, once, once things get hairy, there is that big public rep up revulsion to that there's sort of reactionary media framing to the horror of rioting. And then there is sort of

a freeze or a eventual sort of tapering off in the face of this shaming, essentially. But that hasn't happened yet. It doesn't, it really seems like that trick, that bit, that tool for the tool book of demobilizing popular resistance is not as effective as it used to be because people don't give a shit anymore. The, the, the, the norms, the, the notions that they're, they're appealing to do not persuade the idea of this is your community. These are your stores. Well, that's not what happened. That's not what happened with, that's not what happened with Watts either, though. It lasted for six days and it led up because there was one city, though, because they arrested 3438 people in one city. But this is not one city. I mean, that's the fact

that it, it's, it keeps moving and doubling back and, and kind of pulsing instead of tapering. I agree that it's different, but I'm saying we can't be triumphalist about it. Certainly I'm not being up. What I'm saying is that the possibility exists in that dynamic of, as, or as protests continue, that work of, of creating deliberative processes that builds a program can happen because of its persisting over time. Organizing has to get more intricate as resistance from the police gets more intense too. That's the hope anyway. I don't know what's going to happen. None of us do, but I think that there is a, that there is a real chance here that we all have a responsibility to try to participate to the degree that we can and what

we think possible in exploiting. I just think, yeah, like, for Amber, for your point, like, I, it's, yeah, it's a mistake to be a triumphalist, triumphalist about this to be kind of giddy or excited about the possibility of, like, you know, urban insurrection and violence. But I, I think people need to be sober, like serious and, like, clear-headed about this. And also, like, courageous, I guess, or just courageous in, in their own physical self, but also courageous in their concern, their care, and their, like, actual protection of strangers and their neighbors and, and, like, the people around them as, as, as they stand up and assert themselves in the face of really, what is a really terrifying apparatus of state violence and oppression?

Yeah. And a little bit careful, because there are cops out there. Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, they, they embed, they literally do. We, we know that they do this, like, ye fucking careful, there, there are, there are spies among you. Yeah, just, just, just, please, please try to be wary of anyone around you who's just like, hello, hello, fellow socialists, would you like to do some crimes with me against the state? Be careful. Yeah. Would you like to purchase some guns or explosives with me? Hey, like, help me, help me vandalize this, this piece of property gang. Sir, putting the Photoshop gritty, operating a guillotine. So, sir, I'm requesting tactical evac to ratio Jonathan Chait, the corn cogs. That's a, that's a, that's a 10-4.

You should delete this, my dude. This is, I'm sure going to continue for the very immediate future. And I, you know, I think as morally serious people, we, you know, to the extent that we, that we are, we have a responsibility to, to help in, and just so, so solidarity in any way possible. I think, you know, we will continue to probably share, if you're looking to donate money, I think you should try to give to, like, you know, something that's been sort of vetted, but I think the best thing are these kind of, like, big sort of community bail funds that cover, like, a big pool of money that can go to cover, like, anyone where it's needed, rather than, like, individual people or, like, more boutique charities or things like that. I think these bail funds, if you're looking for,

to donate money, if there's a big pot of money out there, like, I've already given to the, the Minneapolis one, but now it's basically, well, the good news, I guess, is that there's probably one in every city now, because of how necessary it is, but I think there's one that's also, like, just a much bigger pool that will go to generally anywhere it's needed to bail people out of jail who have been arrested as part of these protests. And then also- We can find that and link that. Yeah, for sure. But yeah, like, I think this is a moment that is, is quite serious, and it is quite sobering, and it's one that demands a certain kind of,

like I said, like, courage, individual action, but also kind of, like, patience and patience, and serious mindedness about it, of, you know, as, as ironic as it is for me to say this, you know, not needing to, like, fire off the most immediate take or, or ring humor or ironic distance out of this to the extent that that's possible. Well, it's because this is an actual thing that's happening now. You know, I mean, a big part of that, that instinct to, to, to make a moral judgment on a riot or a protest is the fact that we have instinctive, we have imbibed completely the idea that politics is about observation, observing events and then having an opinion on them.

That is the sum total of politics. And this is, after that horrifying three month just bubble of floating around and wondering when the hell the next shoe is dropped, the fucking shoe is hit the goddamn floor. Yeah, we're in, we're in a, we're in a totally new phase now of 2020, which is considering about the two or three other phases that have happened in just this year. Moving into a new one now is really something. And, you know, it is, it is terrifying to a large degree, but I think if you're close to the people you love and trust and your own internal compass of, of, of morality and or, or, or political imagination, like just you close to that and,

and stay strong in that is like the only really advice that I can say or that, you know, all right, I don't even know if I should be giving any at this point, but I will just say to you, the listener, like, please, please stay safe. You know, please be serious about this and like and help other people. And like by doing so, you will be helping yourself. So I, I don't know, I don't know what else to say about this other than, yeah, just stay safe, stay careful and try to think ahead, think about the long game. And you know, what makes that easier is, is if you're not trying to squint at the internet to make the 3D magic eye poster pop indoors, be in the real world. A lot of these questions become a lot easier to understand

in the moment than they do when you're trying to step back and make sense out of a swirl of information, half of which isn't even true. Yeah, exactly. Like we, people went on Saturday night, people went from zero to there's a child army in the woods of Northern Atlanta in five minutes because of a video of one short national guard guy. I still, I still believe in the child. I believe the child militia is real. I choose to believe in a bunch of husky boys in like Oshkosh bagosh tactical gear. Yeah. Again, I, I, I, there's, there's, I don't know what more to say about this other than, you know, it is horrifying. It is, it is serious and like just people, yeah, just please, yeah, just be safe and be, be strong, be brave, I guess is, is all,

is all I can leave you with. And careful. Be careful out there. All right. Okay. Well, yeah, we will be out. But like I said, this, this will be ongoing. And like I said, we'll, we'll, we'll be here with you throughout it. So until next time, like I said, be on the lookout for those community bail funds or just the, yeah, like any, any small thing you can do to help. All right. Okay, guys. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Yeah.