Chapo Trap House - 773 - Israeli Self Harm Force (10/16/23)

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Will & Felix continue last week’s discussion on Gaza & Palestine with further thoughts on the brutality of the unfolding conflict, reactions and narratives pushed through the American media, shifts in public opinion, and the unstable positions of Israel & America. Here are a few Palestinian aid organizations worth your support: https://www.pcrf.net/ https://www.anera.org/ https://www.map.org.uk/

I Hello friends, it's Monday, October 16th, and Choppo is back with you. Just on a personal note, this is my first show that I've recorded back in New York City after spending Nearly all of the about three weeks in LA. I'm back in the city now and recording today's episode really feels like As someone who you know talks about the news for a living and People come to come to us for I I don't know, analysis or entertainment or comedy. I mean, like, this is a hard one to do because I feel like over the past week, I've absolutely hit a limit on just like the my ability to use words to communicate the

adequate level of horror and disgust that I feel for the country I live in and its government. And I realized I don't want to get the solve cystic to talk about the way this all makes me feel. that I feel for the country I live in and its government. And I realize I don't want to get the solve cystic to talk about the way this all makes me feel. But I bring this up because I'm sure if you're listening to this right now, you're probably feeling the same thing. And I also want to acknowledge that

while these like unspeakable events are taking place and it really feels like grief and despair creep in, I have to note the absence of Matt from our show right now and talk about how difficult that is for me. I mean, like, and the thing is, like, I know Felix and I have a lot to say about what's going on in Palestine right now, but I just want to acknowledge myself because I'm sure for you to listen or probably thinking the same thing, just the huge vacancy that we all feel right now in missing Matt's humor, his intelligence, his anger.

And I, you know, like, and by way of talking about that, I just wanna say that like, it is frustrating for me that we cannot tell you any more about Matt. Like it's sort of, no news, it's good news. Like I guess what I can say is that he still is in the hospital. He is stable and he is with his wife and daughter. So that is what you need to know right now about, Matt. But like, just I want to acknowledge at the beginning of the show,

like to talk about how serious and how fucking terrifying world events have gotten, like to feel that absence of Matt from this program and from being like an active participant in, like, you know, in witnessing and can commenting like an active participant in witnessing and commenting on what is happening in the world today is I'm feeling it acutely right now. And I suppose that's where I want to begin on today's show. I will say yeah, like over the past week, like I think I hit my absolute limit for horror and disgust when I saw the White House press secretary call any calls for a ceasefire to be, quote, disgraceful and repugnant. And it's just one of those situations where you have to face the reality that, like, as far as our government and media goes, there is absolutely nothing you can say or do

to affect what they are doing right now, which is actively enabling and encouraging a genocide. I mean, for teams ridiculous talk about war crimes in this situation, because what's going on right now, I think, is reveal the complete falsity of the entire like, of international law and human rights as they're currently practiced by Western powers. But I'll say this, because I don't want to wallow in despair, because I realized that that's a luxury that has afforded me being completely protected from the violence of these events. But what I will say is that, as far as the governments and media of just about every

Western country in the world who is now just openly agreed to look the other way while Israel just carries out a slaughter of the captive civilian population. But I will say like for all of the efforts of the governments, whether it be the American EU or Israeli government and their various mouthpieces in the media. Their probably in the campaign has worked in so much as that there is like basically nothing the civilians of any democratic country can do to stop the support for for this horrible horrible crime being perpetrated in our names. But it has failed entirely in terms of like the actual public opinion of the world. And I know things look really Blake right now. But I I think it should be noted that while this is happening, I think

we've seen over the entire planet, over the last week, tens, if not hundreds of thousands of people marching in solidarity with Palestine, and probably the largest outpouring of support and solidarity for Palestine that the world has ever seen. I mean, and also keep in mind this is happening in Europe in which those wonderful European democracies are currently criminalizing a display of the Palestinian flag. People, I've heard accounts of people in Paris being arrested for speaking Arabic. So like in the face of all that, I think the world opinion is, is, is I think not reflected in the actions of the states that populate the world and their governments, but I think world, I think it reflected in the actions of the states that populate the world and their

governments, but I think it is very clear what is going on right now. And I think everybody sees that. And the horrible sinking feeling of living in a reality where everyone can see what's going on right in front of their eyes and to feel the horror of what that truly encompasses. And then to see the complete opposite and the complete, just the absolute lies and evil and hypocrisy that we see from our media and our government who are supposed to, or just with very, very few exceptions, like our leaders in this country and just the unspeakable evil and the horrible crime that they are all now

actively partaking in. And I know that's a lot to say at the beginning of the show, but I feel like I had to get it off my chest. I frankly don't do not think it's true that we have absolutely no effect. I look, this is the most off balance I have seen both Israel and the United States caught in a, you know, in Israel-centric thing in a very long time, maybe ever, maybe ever in our lifetimes. There is true horror that is undeniable. There is open calls for genocide, as there have been from the Israeli side for many years, there is a legitimate attempt at a final solution here. But I see both Israel and the United States struggling to get out of the chair and stand

up. There is a legitimate sense I get that they do not know what they want to do next. I was just going to talk about that. Because it seems to be like, I was going to bring up, like, specifically what I'm seeing from European governments right now, we're like, and for the last, like, early last week, they were all completely on board for basically just calling to raise Gaza. They ended all aid to Palestinians for the guys that it just, oh, it's going to go to terrorism one way or the other.

But as far as, you know, like Israel cutting off all power, electricity, gas, medicine, food from Gaza, and they're open, like just open description of their acts as like they they perceive no civilians in Gaza whatsoever. That the European governments are absolutely signing on as parties to a war crime, which makes them as guilty as the people carrying it out. And I was particularly struck by one Tory minister in the UK government, who I'm sure is a...

I mean, I would imagine he's opposed to war crimes laws, probably because he knew that this situation would be the one who arrives, in which all of the treaties to human rights and war crimes like that that Western countries have signed on to are authored makes us responsible for what Israel is doing right now which is absolutely a war crime and I think you're right Felix I don't know if you've read Seymour Hersh's reporting on this yes but his sources in the Israeli government all reflect what you've said and what Muhammad and others have pointed out is that they absolutely do not trust their infantry for any

kind of invasion or occupation of Gaza. So they're going to rely on their aero forests and some of the most powerful non-nuclear weapons ever created to contain or degrade Hamas in their view, but basically just to punish the people of Gaza as much as possible, which is what you can get away with. But they're not, like, they're, they're, they, I think they all understand that they're not getting rid of Hamas. Right.

I, I, I mean, I think even they know clearly that these indiscriminate air strikes, the triple taps, the permissible destruction of hospitals, of communications targeting schools. Bombing the raffle crossing. Yeah, this does not really prevent Hamas from being able to do anything. And they know that. I mean, when Hitler killed that entire village that Rynard Hydrick was assassinated near, he knew that that wouldn't necessarily kill every partisan. I mean, this is a clear policy.

It's really used to be a bit more open about describing and advertising the policy of disproportionate response. We have seen less of that because in addition to the strategic off-balanceness of it all, there's also a real sense that the Israeli information machine does not quite know what it wants, but they know, despite everything, that the only way that they could, in fact, embossed its capabilities in a permanent way, would be reoccupied by Gaza. And I mean, have you ever seen this many friendly fire incidents by a major armed force

in the modern era in this short of a time ever? I've asked a lot of people, I have asked a bunch of people who, you know, would not have a reason to lie or stretch the truth or anything. No one remembers this many friendly fire incidents, whether it is Israeli squadrons firing on each other, Israeli platoons freaking out and killing settlers that they have been given priority to escort. It's like six months of what we would get reported to us about US troops in the first year of Afghanistan.

It seems like we're getting every three days on the Israeli side. Yeah, and I guess, like, to your point that like to amend my original comments, like, it's not that there is, I don't think anything to be done here. I just, I mean more in light of, I don't know, just a lot of the commentary I've seen on this, it seems to presume that if you speak about this in a correct way, it will gain you points in the media or that speaking truth about the history of Palestine

and what Israel is doing to it, will you be awarded some credit for not being accused of being a terrorist or an anti-Semite? I mean, I guess I'm just like, I'm struck by the fact that like, all the like most of the people that are demanding that like everyone in the West like forcefully condemn the killing of unarmed non-combatants in war

is like saying that there's never a reason for anyone to ever do that or all the same people that are carving out the biggest possible exemption for when it comes to killing unarmed women and children in a fucking war. What are those exceptions I saw was just being a child doesn't necessarily mean you're innocent. Oh yeah, those are the ladies. Some kids are serial killers. Yeah, how do you just do the rest of your day after that? Just, yeah, do you go into your family group chat

after saying that? I guess when I see, when I see the ways in which this horror is being perpetrated or talked about in the media. And like, I mean, one can't help but feel like despair in terms of the fact that like people have not just learned nothing, but are actively, you know, actively choosing to like, learning anything or calling for a ceasefire or that like just because you feel afraid or that like there are victims on your side that you can count Nids just absolute barbarism because you need to be feel safe that anyone that suggesting otherwise is your enemy and a

Trader, I mean like they just they loved 9 11 so much it was the best thing that ever happened to them and they want to go Back to that feeling again, but at the same time, some of the propaganda I've seen coming out to justify this is so embarrassing that like, I you can even see it in the faces of like the people on the BBC or CNN who have to repeat it. Like all this hummus is ISIS stuff. It's like, come on.

Does that mean that is real is gonna start giving them aid? Yeah, yeah, it's gonna send their medics to help them. Yeah, no, yeah, it's just baffling. I again, I get the sense that they don't know what they want to do. They don't know what point they want to get across. It's incredibly confused. One thing I've noticed, this is more on the American side than the idea upside is, have you noticed that, I mean, this has always been a thing in like anti-Palestinian propaganda, but I feel like people get just like, they're on their way to try to get other talking points out, but they get stuck making lured fantasies of like an American gay guy getting tortured to death by Palestinians. Yeah. like, I have seen probably no less than like three dozen a day of this.

Just anytime someone is wearing like a shirt with a pride flag on it and is saying like there should be a ceasefire. Oh, what do you think would happen to you in Gaza? And then just like the most blurry description. Yeah, I mean, there's there's that obviously, but it's like, okay, it is, it's very weird how laws criminalizing, being gay were such a small thing. So not a big deal when Israel normalized relations with the United Arab Emirates that we did not even hear about these laws in the UAE when that came up. I'm sure they just forgot. It's very

weird when these laws become deal breakers. Yeah, but it's like they don't even, I don't even think that they care about these laws anyway. It's just like a violent fucking murder fantasy. Yeah, and like, I mean, like, back to our, the show we did last one there, I mean, like, as you said, Felix, like, Israel and the West have been caught completely unguarded by this. And Israel's military was badly humiliated by what Hamas did in that raid into Israeli territory,

badly humiliated, and suffered a great deal of casualties in the process. So, like, everything that's come after that, like, they knew what they wanted to do in response to that. That's the way that they can feel strong again, is, like I said, by bombarding their, you know, the prison full of slaves that they've been keeping for the last, you know, God knows how many decades now. So, like, what would justify that?

Like, in the minds of minds of like an average person. Like what would justify even in response to terrorism? Like is that justified? And it's just like for most people, the answer is no until you start coming up with stories about how they're raping babies. Yeah, yeah, no, just the most insane things they can come up with.

And this is something I thought the week of when there was that rush to condemn and that rush to like find people who weren't condemning in the right way, even if they did condemn or people are talking about it in the wrong way. The search for the perfect answer, the perfect response that will anger no one, no one will call you any names.

And because he said the magic words, you will get your preferred policy. One thing I thought just like in practical terms is no one wants innocent people, like unarmed people to be killed, but like can we wait a little while, who wait a little week to find out exactly what happened? And I don't know if you saw this yesterday,

but a survivor of one of the Kabut's attacks, they said in an interview that Israel pulled from the air that Israeli forces fired on their own hostages. I see that the electric gun, Tafada covered it. I'm waiting to see it get picked up elsewhere. But yeah, like I've seen a lot of reports from the survivors of these attacks on the Kubits and like, look, as Mohammed said, like, there's no doubt that Israeli civilians were killed in this attack.

Right. There's no doubt. But like, keep in mind that like, okay, waging a war against civilians is always wrong. Well, the Israeli government just said it's okay to wage war on civilians in Gaza because they voted for Hamas, leaving aside the fact that like half the population of Gaza was not 18 or even alive when that election took place. Oh, by the way, the election that they Israel also supported Hamas in. Right, right. And like, look, I mean, the obvious corollary here is like that could easily be applied to any citizen of Israel or the United States.

We voted for a fascist, genocidal government, a lot fucking more recently than Gossan supposedly did. I don't think people do anyone just deserves to die because of the accident of the country they were born in, and the culture that they were raised in. But the terms of this war have been set a long time ago. And it is unquestionably this is like the latest escalation in what has been like for decades now an ongoing war that is necessarily to be prosecuted must be fought against Palestinians civilians, must be fought against Palestinian birth rates.

That is the terms of engagement that has been set by Israel and the West as far as this conflict goes about what is acceptable and what is acceptable to pursue in the terms of engagement that has been said by Israel and the West as far as this conflict goes about what is acceptable and what is acceptable to pursue in the name of your security. And the fact is any living Palestinian within that the area of the world known as Israel or Palestine is considered an existential threat to the Israeli state. And they are treated as such. Yeah, and beyond methods of population control, and mass killings and deprivation, and subjugation that we think of as depersonalized, that we assign a moral lack of responsibility to,

right, with airstrikes, or even something that's deliberate as limiting the exact amount of calories to go to the exact minimum for people in Gaza. Things like this that are done in a bureaucratic way that we think, even if you do this, even if you sign off on this, you can go and live the rest of your life and even condemn others. There is a lot of that on the Israeli side, but I think amidst that people have forgotten, if we're talking about armed groups of irregulars

going door to door and committing pogroms and killing people very fucking up close and personal, there's really no shortage of stories about Israeli settlers doing that. Like being in Israeli settlers is not a fun life. It's pretty shitty. You would only do that if you were really trying to make a point and a lot of them seem to make that point in more openly, up close and personal, genocidal ways than others.

A lot of them. And I guess like in the Western conception of who is justified in using violence and what they claim is self-defense, like who is justified in killing civilians? And again, like this is a ghoulish debate and to even like have it is almost like honestly to kind of play into the terms of the people prosecuting it. But I guess my question is, if there were a group of people

that looked like you, and by like you, if I'm talking to you listener, chances are, I probably mean white people. And I mean, I pose this question to the entire Western media and American culture. If there were a group of people that looked like us as we broadly defined it. Being treated the way that Israel treats Palestinians, would you have any respect for them at all if they didn't fight back?

And in fact, wouldn't there submission to a state of oppression as brutal as what Israel prosecutes against them? Wouldn't that be in some way a justification for their ongoing dispossession? Um, I mean, yeah, that there, that was previously sort of in arena they would delve into, you know, with arguments in favor, this was more something you saw in like the late 90s, early 2000s, when it was more of like, you know, a, a depth star setup. There was, um, I would, back then, that the situation in a global sense, there seemed to be less avenues for this, right? Like, there just seemed to be no challenge to US power. It just did not seem like a lot of global power had begun coalescing in other places.

There was no left for the most part in most places that could affect policy, but that was the argument, right? That like, oh, actually these people like signed a fucking piece of paper. They actually like look how fucked up and incompetent, like, you know,-l-o-s these people really wanted it was like uh...

arguments you see about high school football teams on rivals dot com i mean uh... another really horrific thing that i want to bring up and like i i don't think this because i think you know uh... american lives are into it's more tragedy they die, but like, okay, there were Americans killed by Hamas in the, you know, first day or hour of their incursion into Israel. But or in the, I think there's maybe even a few Americans that were taken hostage by Hamas as well. But there are between five and 600 Americans currently in the Gaza Strip because, you know,

their family lives there, like they live there. The US State Department has, after initially, of course, laying at the feet of Hamas every single dead American has officially said the Blinken State Department that they will no longer be commenting on the cause of any American who dies going forward in this conflict. Yeah. Which is like our own State Department just saying, the Israel, yeah, you can kill American civilians if they're in Gaza. Yeah. I bring this up, not because I think it's more of a tragedy if an American civilian dies,

but I think it's, I bring it up because it brings into stark relief, like the conduct of our own government and like, and what their commitments really actually mean to not just global human rights, but to the rights of American citizens. Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've seen this previously. There's been like an outright criminalization on the American and Israeli side of, you know, if you picked wrong, if you are, you you are made such a bad choice to have your family live in Gaza, if you rolled the dice wrong,

you are automatically looked at as criminal. If you go to visit them, if you want your kid to meet their grandparents. And now with this that is escalated to, you deserve to die if that's the case. If you if you visited them two weeks ago and you wanted to spend some time there if you wanted younger generations of your family to meet your parents or your grandparents aunts and uncles. If you wanted that and you like the vast vast majority of everyone,

including us did not know this was coming, your life is forfeit and the life of your children is forfeit and the life of your family there is forfeit because just being there makes you a criminal and a terrorist. And again, I wanna go back to what I said about at the beginning, specifically as it relates to like my own government that I pay taxes to. Like sure, I'll condemn Hamas, but I'm not sending them money.

I didn't vote for them. I have no fucking influence. Even if I did, what would they go, would they go, would they go, would they go, stop because Choppo Trap House said, though, whereas the fucking Democratic Party and the United States government, it's our tax dollars that are using to fund this fucking genocide in Gaza right now. So maybe focus a little bit on like the people, the people that like who you share a country and government with that are currently killing

women and children, like maybe maybe focus your eye are a little bit more on them. And just the absolute profound evil of America, supposedly the most powerful country in the world, saying of Jewish people, Arab people, just people of conscience in the world who look at this horror and want the violence to stop, that asking for or demanding a ceasefire is morally abominable, that it is a disgrace, that it is a kin to doing the Holocaust. And these are the governments, these are the same fucking governments that just gave a standing ovation to the Waffen SS guy who did the actual Holocaust. Like that's the fucking world we're living in. And you know, I got to note there are there are many protesters out in front of the White House right now,

mostly Jewish Americans demanding a ceasefire, which should be like the absolute bare minimum of any responsible nation right now, is to put an end to this killing or at least a pause in it for now so that so humanitarian relief can be distributed to people who are dying right now talking about like four hospitals in Gaza now can no longer even function because of how many dead people there are and how there's no medicine that like that's the kind of shit we're talking about and I owe here's another absolutely grotesque thing from this week. I know I know in the past people who've gotten pissy with us for making fun of Joe Biden's obvious synility, but this is an example of what having a your the leader of your country be like obviously in the groups of dementia is actually kind of a bad thing because when he comes out and says

compares what Hamas did to the Holocaust and says, I've seen photos of the headed babies. Yeah. Despite no such photo, despite that being a complete fabrication, or at least like if I'm sure there are photos of dead kids out there, but like his amplification of that absolute blood liable about like seeing photos of the headed babies because someone told him it. He didn't see pictures of that. He just said it and repeated it in service

of giving license to a major ally of the United States, committing a war crime and allowing them to do it with full diplomatic and military support. I mean, like the source for the CNN person who put that out on CNN has already walked it back. And people will say, like, are you saying that no children were killed? And like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But these lurid and insane fantasies of like Hamas's bloodlust for Israelis is just like, it's so obvious what's going on here. And like, and again, to even engage with it, I think is dicey to begin with. Right. Yeah. Um, with Biden, do you get the sense that like, Yeah, with Biden, do you get the sense that like, he started out like in default, in default mode.

Like, oh, this is 2009, this is 2014. Like, I can just say, like, I can give the same like carte launch, dude, Israeli response. No one in America will meaningfully care about this. And like, even if it's bad, no one will remember it. And like Israel will be able to like establish control instantly and will be fine.

I feel like that was the just based assumption. He and a lot of his administration were operating under and then you know, it's things become clearer and you know, you realize things like how long it took large numbers, so Israeli forces to regain control in regions along the border, the friendly fire incidents, just the general unpreparedness, jumpiness and fear of the Israeli military. I think somewhere along the line,

they realized that like this is not the IDF from you know 30 years ago. I am the one from 20 years ago. And like if you notice this dance that everyone is doing you know just as part of the US military intelligence and Israeli intelligence with like Iranian involvement. Yeah, it we're we're it's just like, okay, they they did this, they ordered this or no, they planned this or what actually they weren't involved or you know, even if they were, they don't know, they don't know. And like, I really get the sense that they're aware that like, the sense that they're aware that like a multi-front war or even just them trying to re-occupy Gaza, it's not a guaranteed thing for them anymore. And I feel like in previous years, they would jump to like unambiguously accused of wrong of everything here, right? But there is a palpable fear here that I see.

And on the US side, it seems like maybe some of it, some of the walking back that we've seen from Biden has been some like the broad backlash that we've seen, but also they're not really sure is real is capable of doing this. I have definitely noticed that just in the progression of time from last week to now this weekend and the beginning of this week,

as I said in the comments from European governments where they basically kind of like, as we've talked about in the show, basically everything has become so degraded that the people whose hands are on the till are the fail-sons of fail-sons at this point. Even if you're trying to manage a ruthless blood-soaked empire, just simply don't know what to fuck to do anymore. You see that with a Britain just realizing, oh shit, we've just actively encouraged a war

crime from an allied state, which could put us on the hook for problems down the road. Like I said, as you pointed out, in trying to beat the drums for war with Iran, or kindle a larger regional war, I think the White House is like, last week they said, any calls for restraint on behalf of Israel is wholly abominable. It is anti-Semitism. Is it akin to the Holocaust? You'll notice that it is really hitting a few sites in southern Lebanon yesterday.

The White House has said, basically, tepidly, but is unmistakably told them to chill out. Yeah, as far as I think it's pretty clear. Like, as you said, nobody really knows what to do. And I think that they're looking, they're looking at the options and a lot of them of what seemed like it could have been easy before is looking like maybe way too much to swallow.

Yeah, and like, look, as far as like a Rodion involvement, I'm not gonna act like I have some special insight here where I know one way or the other, right? None of us do. I mean, we know that like Hamas forces have trade with, you know, Iranian special forces in the past. That was sort of crucial to like a development of Hamas developing their own sort of SOF detachments.

Maybe even like, they did help plan this. That's certainly possible. But I feel like if there was, like, definitive smoking gun truth, we'd probably be hearing about it. Because, like, okay, if Iran had a major role in this, and your Israel don't you kind of think, like, okay, holy shit, like, if they did this,

and even if they planned this, like, the fact that a. Like if they did this and even if they planned this, like the fact that a policy in grip is capable of this is fucking gigantic and changes our entire calculus and it turns out the last 30 years of our policies have failed. But like if they did this, if you're Israel that makes you think that they're like close to developing a new, closer than ever, like you would probably make the choice of like,

okay, this is going to be difficult, but like it's now or never. But instead, it's just this weird, back and forth, saying one thing, retracting it, saying, hey, I didn't say that. I really don't know. I don't know if Iranian involvement is much lesser than we think. I don't know if it's greater than we think, and Israel is just slowly realizing that the more fronts are open in this world, the worse it's going to be for them. I really genuinely do not know,

but they don't even seem to know immediate next steps forward at all, just a complete confusion. And I mean, look to fucking Huchi Kuchi man, Anthony Blinken's latest trip to the diplomatic trip to the Middle East and what a complete failure that was. Yeah, can we talk about like, Anthony Blinken, he did like a minstrel show at the White House two weeks ago,

and look at what's happened in the world since. Yeah, that was it. That's one of the most insane things I've ever seen in my life. I've been taking cotton all day long. things I've ever seen in my life. I've been taking cotton all day long. I've been all day long now. Like, he cotton blues. I'm a blues band. He was, he was like babysit by the ghost of David Rockefeller.

And he's like, he thinks he's Steve Martin in the jerk. It's one of the most insane things I've ever seen. I don't, anyway, he was a victim of Cissy hip-no. Sissy hip-no, sorry. Sissy hip-no. Yeah. Also, um, he was supposed to have a meeting with the MBS and the Saudis made him wait all night. That's, you read that? They made him wait, they made him wait to the morning to see MBS. That's, that's the US Secretary of State. Did the Philly Attardow move? Well, the thing with CC is like the problem for the US State Department right now is they're like,

yeah, like we're totally not only are we going to countenance Israel just issuing an evacuation order to a million people and giving them 24 hours to fucking live up to it, which is again, monstrous like this, an insane level of evil. Yeah, but then he just said, oh, they should all just go to South Gaza. is again monstrous, like an insane level of evil. Yeah, but then he just said, oh, they should all just go to South Gaza. And what, just stand in a fucking field, like they gotta go somewhere.

So they're like, oh, well, Egypt can take them. So basically they're like demanding Egypt take something like a million and a half refugees from Gaza while giving them nothing in return. And I'm sure there's like, there's some a deal, or like I'm sure there's a carrot in this deal somewhere for Egypt. But like, do they seem inclined to fucking help us out with this to help Israel just displace another million people across their border? Yeah. And I want to say, even if, even if all these people were able to evacuate

and there were no Israeli strikes on their routes. If none of them died, it would still be a gigantic fucking crime. That would still be a monstrous fucking act. That would still be just unforgivable. But we know it's not even going to be like that if this happens. And like just in general, this bullshit about happens. And like just in general, this bullshit about, um, uh, erim nations not accepting healthy refugees is just, it takes a very short time to look up. That's not true. That a lot of these countries have taken gigantic amounts of refugees in proportion to their population,

especially Lebanon, like it's, these are not rich or oftentimes stable countries, and yet they're still doing what they can. I mean, it's just why is the onus on them, even, for that? They shouldn't even have to do the, the Palestinians should not even have to do this in the first place, but it's just, it's this, like, pretty racist assumption that it's just at its base. Like, hey, there are like arrow, you are too. What's the fucking difference between living in Palestine and living in Jordan, even if the Jordanian government had isn't historically, and now committed fucking atrocities in

Palestinian refugee gangs. It's the same thing, they use the same language, it's fine. You wouldn't say this about anyone else. I mean, yeah, I guess like the Palestinian, like the Palestinian cause is really like, it's so stark in the way it just brings out like the absolute hollowness of like all of like the liberal West commitments. That we just like not only let this happen, but

that we like actually think that this is part of the Western democratic project. Because you know, Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East, you see, they, you know, they respect the gay rights or whatever, which is by the way, their current government certainly doesn't. Yeah, and they're certainly not trending into respecting them more. And yeah, again, I feel like I'm going fucking crazy here. Every Abraham Accord country, every, like, when, oh my God, there's a direct flight

between fucking Tel Aviv and Dubai. What do you think the laws are there? No one seemed to care that. We did, like, like, I said what I mean, yeah, like, it exposed it because like, it just, at every point, it's just like, the hypocrisy is so stunning. And like every, every, every commitment to the liberal project is just trashed and thrown out the fucking window in like, you know, in a, in a, in a torrent of bloodshed because

these people's existence is just inconvenient. It's just like, it does, it, like, it makes, it's uncomfortable. And like, and their resistance also makes us feel squishy. Like, we feel bad when we think about them killing people because they're like, oh, that's evil. We like our victims to be a compliant and just sort of like a meek and sort of Christlike in their suffering.

Because then we can feel good about it later when we feel bad about what our country did to them. Yeah. I mean, back to what we said at the beginning, like that despair, especially if you are an American or European on this matter is certainly unwarranted and a little bit masturbatory because like, as I said, like look at the people marching in the streets, look at the failure, look at the complete failure, not just of the Israeli security state, but their propaganda machine. It's hard to say it's not working when the media is so monolithic in how it presents

this issue. But consider the fact that that is the case, and you still see hundreds of thousands of people in the street risking employment at this point, if not arrest, for just simply saying no to this fucking horrible active aggression, saying no genocide, or just at least asking for a ceasefire, that the way these people are being slandered as Nazis or criminalized for peaceful protest is, and they're still doing it.

They're still doing it. Yeah, I don't at all want to strike the tone of like transcendalism, like I'm not there, you know? I'm frankly not there, I don't have family there. I like many others watching this in America will not bear the brunt of this. But at the same time, I've just, I've never seen anyone on the Palestinian side despair. And I've seen times in America and the world where it seemed like

there was just no one gave a shit about this at all. No one paid lip service even. No one even really noticed it was happening. It seemed like this was just going to happen slowly over the course of a few generations and slowly the Palestinian people would be wiped out and fled from their homes. I don't feel that way anymore that no one gives a shit, that people don't notice, and that there is no route for Palestinian dignity, self-determination. I don't think any of us know what's going to happen, and I think even a good outcome, everyone is aware, would take an incredibly long amount of time. And there would still be a massive loss and degradation of human life on the way to it. But yeah, I just, I completely

agree. I, I, we should not despair at least in public if they're not at all. And, you know, we run up and think against this over and over again when it seems like there is no political solution to like the intractable problem is that we face, but the thing is you still have to try, even if you think, even if in your heart of hearts, you think it's kind of foolish or absurd, you still have to try because at the end of the day,

like that's, you have to look at yourself in the fucking mirror and like as far as trying to go, I do wanna really shout out and give it just a lot of love to Paisan who on his stream the other day, raised something like half a million dollars for Palestinian relief agencies in the span of a few hours. Like he raised $180,000 in the first hour after going live on Twitch.

And like, look, I understand the current public opinion in this country is so rancid. But don't fool yourself that everybody thinks this way. And don't fool yourself that the media can just control people's minds forever. Because they never have. And it really doesn't seem like it is working. It is only working on people for whom it has always worked on. And are people who are totally committed to this and will never change their minds.

This is as bleak as it's like maybe ever felt in my adult life. I mean, it's among the top of them for a lot of reasons. But their grasp on the future that they want has never been more tenuous. Yeah, they do not seem like people who believe they are in control. That is all I'll say. But yeah, no.

What Hassan did was incredible. It was incredible to watch what his community did was very heartening. Yeah, no, I think it's a great reminder. No matter what citizen you see and how people behave and how the media behaves and how our government behaves, there's still a lot of good out there. There are people who care and even if in some ways this does feel as bleak or bleaker than it has, you know, in my life or your life, there are also ways in which it's a lot different. There are a lot of things I just could not have imagined even in 2014.

And you know, like it's so easy to like to give in to like nihilism, we're just saying fuck it all because you know, we all remember the Iraq war. I remember millions of people marching in the streets in the over the entire world condemning what we all knew to be true. This was a completely unwarranted act of aggression on behalf of the Bush administration. And indeed, a war crun. Didn't stop the Iraq war. Didn't stop the media government. And like, they certainly not only have not, not only they refused to learn any lessons.

I mean, the lessons they learned were that they did nothing wrong. And it's time to do it again. But that being said, the more grotesque, the more grotesquely cynical and evil the lies that you're seeing, that the situation demands from the people who support what's going on right now, the more grotesque and cynical their lies become, just keep in mind it's because they have to.

Yeah, and if they had better lie, they had better or more convincing lies to sell, they would be doing them. Yes, they don't yeah absolutely and I think unstated in all this and I think you see a fear of this everywhere weather is just like you know outright insane people who are saying insane things that typically a targeted individual would say like look at this girl who's wearing the destroy Israel necklace.

These are like the people that they have on Instagram. I think that comes last merchandise. But like, you know, not like those people for sure, but also like, you know, people on the liberal Zionist side or even like, hey, I'm on the left, but blah, blah, blah. Here's what the perfect response would have been. I think among all of them, there's this tangible feeling and incredible amount of fear that they see that, again, this isn't 2002, that there is global power elsewhere

than the United States that I mean I think have asked themselves their strategy here is a refutation of the idea that there is really anything more to be gained from American public opinion that there are people and powers elsewhere and that the world is changing. I don't know if it's going to necessarily instantly change for the better or not. None of us know. But that is just frankly the truth. This is not the same world we lived in 20 years ago. By way of an example of just what we're talking about here, I would point out that Columbia's

president Gustavo Petro has said that if Israel continues with this, that they will sever diplomatic ties with Israel, that they will recall their ambassador. Which is what every, the leadership of every civilized nation on this planet, Arab, European, Asian, American, it's what they should have done, the second this should start it, is recall their ambassadors and sever diplomatic ties and put Israel under extreme sanctions at the very least. But keep in mind, Colombia was basically America's biggest and most important ally in South

America. Indeed, that their right wing desglades were, in fact, many of them trained by Israeli mercenaries in how to suppress the popular uprisings and, like know a restive civilian population so we say Columbia a major artery of like of US the Empire in South America is now their government is just saying no to this I mean we'll see what happens they haven't done it yet you know I would

you know spains a minister for social affairs has said that they are like the European government is supporting a genocide. The government of Ireland has been very good on this issue. Again, I'm not saying this is amounts to any kind of serious sanction of Israel. These are just words at this point. But it is an example of how we are not in 2002. Yeah, no.

And I would go even beyond good responses in countries in Europe or places that were formerly US client states. I just looking at the reaction from the Chinese public has been very hard to miss. Everyone is quite aware that America just does not, we don't carry the same weight we did, not that long ago. And there is a palpable fear there. It's not even like how much of our moral authority have we cashed, have we just fucking done a fire sale on over the last 20 or 30 years, if not our entire existence.

But there is a time when people believe that about America, it certainly isn't now. But like would they even need to like, I mean, even if we have that same moral authority, what's happening right now in Gaza is so stark, is so stark. Just the wholesale extermination of a captive civilian population, the intentional bombing of hospitals, of escape routes, of just like unspeakable cruelty and madness that like, even if you believe all of the most lurid depictions of what Hamas did to Israel, they would still in no way justify what Israel is doing in any sense. In any sense. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I don't have much more to say about this. Like I think you the audience are bearing through what you know is a tough episode, but I hope that I spoke in some way to, you know, like with some clarity or some compassion to what you all are feeling right now as well, which is, you know, like very, I would imagine, disgusted and afraid. But I mean, just, you know, like let that be a beginning point, I got like a starting point because like, you know, we have like a safety and a freedom in this country, even if you think it's mostly worthless, is like, it still counts for something, I suppose. Yeah, if you do feel helpless or paralyzed,

that is not a reflection on you, that is a normal response to feel, saying true horror. But if you feel that way, and you don't want to dwell in that, and just doing that, we will have links to some charities that are providing much needed relief to Palestinians. Look, if you live in this country or the UK or anywhere else where they're trying to criminalize

acknowledging what you see with your own eyes and you're wondering what you can do. There are real material ways that you can help people. But I'd also like to add that we're seeing a very familiar demonization and dehumanization of Muslims, Arabs, of Iranians, of people that the US has depicted his animates. You want to talk about, you want to talk about the utter failure of Grotesque propaganda? How about that global day of G-Hod? Yeah, Jesus Christ.

The only person that that killed was a fucking six year old in Chicago. Yeah. Who happened to be a Arab? Yeah. Killed by a landlord too. Yeah, Jesus Christ. Just fucking horrible, but just please, if you want to do something and you've given what you can give,

please just keep seeing these people as you always have. As human beings, as your neighbors, treat them the same way that you always have. As as human beings, as your neighbors, treat them the same way that you always have, please. They need, they need decent people to stand by them now. And I understand like in times like these like tensions are very high and people's emotions are very torched up and people like rightly feel like, you know, a fear causes people to lash out. And like, I totally understand that urge, like, I feel it myself, but I'll just tell you like, on a stupid personal level, the deal I've made with myself, which is that if I choose to engage with any of the, like, you know,

mind, renderingly stupid propaganda and evil that I see on social media, which is, let's be honest, how the majority of us are experiencing this crisis. If I choose to engage with any of that, I will, for everyone that I do, I will donate to a Palestinian release organization, because like, I feel like, if you're just kind of lashing out, you know, it's just like, put some fucking,

put some paper behind it, at the very least. And I'm not saying don't lash out, don't make fun of people, don't be trollish on social media, I'm not, that's golden fucking anyone. I'm just saying from my part, my purpose is, I've tried to restrain myself, because I think like, as much as like,

I understand the instinct is like, so present in me, like, if I'm gonna do it, if I'm gonna engage on this topic publicly, I'm gonna pony up some money every time I do it. I think that's a great personal rule. I think, you know, if you have money you can part with, if you're comfortable, that is a great rule to follow. I think we should all follow that.

All right, I think we can leave it there for today. I guess just the close things out on a personal note, I mentioned that this is my first episode back in New York City and I was feeling, you know, kind of uncomfortable and vulnerable to like having left LA and with dealing continuously with like with Matt's health situation. And like the last few weeks have been immensely difficult for all of us, but I just want to say, for the time that Catherine and of us, but I just want to say for the time that Catherine and I spent in LA, I want to thank

Chris and Molly, of course, Amber Rallo, who isn't, you know, endured more in the last month or so, than I just about any human being that I've known in my life, and I truly have to send my love and appreciation to her. But just to everyone in LA who's helped us over the past week who came to the hospital who You know like provided a meal who did anything for Matt and Amber right now you all know who you are and That will always be with me. I will always be a writer die for everyone. You know who you are But just and also like your love and support of you guys the listeners It's just it's it's meant a lot and meant a lot and it's pulled me through what has been an incredibly, an incredibly difficult time for myself and the show. Probably not going to plug the movie into this episode. That's all right.

All right, we'll leave it there for today. Till next time, bye-bye. Bye. Thanks for watching!