Chapo Trap House - BONUS: Steven Donziger to be Sentenced

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

Attorney Steven Donziger faces sentencing for his criminal contempt charge. Will and Steven discuss updates on his case, the UN’s ruling his house arrest violates international law, and what can be done to support him. Information on Steven’s case and ways to support collected at https://www.freedonziger.com/ Rally before Steven’s sentencing at 500 Pearl st. at 8:30 a.m. Oct. 1. More info here: https://twitter.com/SDonziger/status/1440085788759236609 Call in to his sentencing, Oct. 1, 10:00 a.m. ET U.S.: [phone] International: [phone] More info here: https://twitter.com/SDonziger/status/1443617319163412490

All right. Joining me now back again is Steven Donzinger. Steven, I wish I could be talking to you under better circumstances, but as it currently stands, you are scheduled to be what? Sentenced tomorrow? Yes. Tomorrow. So, I mean, like, what are your thoughts going into what is, I don't know, the culmination of a years-long ordeal? Well, thanks for having me. I mean, it's brutal. You know, there's no other way to describe it, although I am optimistic the result could be good, meaning I'll get released from my, you know, an inordinately long house arrest. It's now 786 days today for a misdemeanor contempt charge after, you know, as people out there in your audience, I think, no, I beat

Chevron and court representing indigenous groups in Ecuador in a historic pollution judgment for about $10 billion. They attacked me here in New York and basically I'm the target of probably the nation's first corporate criminal prosecution, where a judge charging with disobeying a court order that I turn over my computer to Chevron, which is, I think, a lawful, crazy unheard of. And after I appealed the lawfulness of that order, the same judge charged you with a crime for not complying with an order that I had appealed. So, he then locked me up and charged you with a misdemeanor and no person in the federal system ever has been held pretrial on a misdemeanor, a person I should say with no criminal record like me, for even a day. And I've

been here now, you know, over two years. So, this is highly irregular. I think the real danger is that this represents a certain corporate capture of our federal judges by Chevron, by the fossil fuel industry. I think this is their playbook for the future. That is, you know, when people become too successful in holding them accountable for their pollution or their destruction of the planet, they will be prosecuted directly by private law firms that they control, which is happening to me. The law firm is Seward and Kissel at the New York law firm that has Chevron as a client. And they're prosecuting me after the U.S. government in Manhattan, the regular federal prosecutor, refused the case. So, corporate prosecution,

it's wrong. We think it's unconstitutional. Now, I will say this just this week, the United Nations working group on arbitrary detention issued a momentous legal ruling calling my detention illegal, arbitrary, and ordering the U.S. government to release me immediately and pay me compensation. This just happened this week. And tomorrow I'm having my sentencing in this contempt case where I didn't even get a jury and I faced six months in prison. So, hopefully the judge will release me tomorrow and I'll be able to get my life back. But it's been tough. I mean, I was just going to bring up the statement and the ruling issued by the United Nations, which is in a general session this week on your behalf. I mean, it's a fairly stunning

recognition by international law of this insane miscarriage of justice. But I mean, do you expect that to have any effect on the judge, the trial? I mean, in New York City, New York State, like our media and certainly the New York State Democratic congressional delegation doesn't seem to want to notice or talk about this at all. So, do you think that the added pressure from the UN will just bring anything to bear on your case here? I think it will help. I mean, I think every time people of high reputation, in this case, five international jurists who ruled that my detention isn't legal, when they speak, it brings into the equation certain forces that can help me and help human rights in general.

I think it's important. Of course, I think my case is kind of a watershed moment with my sentencing tomorrow in this sense. There is a obvious human rights violation taking place on US soil in this corporate prosecution, detaining me, targeting, trying to jail me. It is shocking to me that the entire New York congressional delegation where I live, that is my Congressman Jerry Nadler, my Senators Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand have been completely silent for over two years while I've been detained at home in this extraordinary situation. And at this point, the silence, I have to say, is complicity with the corruption that is taking place. And I'm really disappointed in Nadler in particular, who's chair of the House Judiciary Committee,

whose son works at a Chevron law firm Gibson Dunn & Crutcher that's been paid literally hundreds of millions of dollars over the last 10 years to target me. He has a total conflict of interest and he makes some excuse like, oh, I can't comment on a pending legal case. Well, you know what, Jerry Nadler and many politicians comment on pending legal cases all the time, okay? You can comment on a case that is so irregular and so obviously gone off the tracks that to not comment makes it look odd, you know? So, you know, you probably saw this great article by Andrew Fishman yesterday in the Intercept that comments about how, you know, for example, with Gillibrand, the lawyers at Chevron's law firm Gibson Dunn & Crutcher, where Nadler's son works, have given

over $450,000 in campaign donations to Senator Gillibrand. Senator Schumer has received over $1 million in campaign donations from Chevron law firms. You know, no wonder they don't speak out. And, you know, we as a society cannot let an industry, in this case, the fossil fuel industry, the Chevrons of the world, so control the apparatus of government that our elected leaders who are elected to, you know, defend the interests of the people and to check corporate power, you know, are completely silent in the face of a massive human rights violation right in their own district to a constituent. So, it's disappointing. I do think this UN decision, though, can provide a major impetus to getting these individuals and others to sort of, you know, speak out and take this on

because to not do so, I think, is to create a situation where people can't do this work and, you know, the destruction of the planet is just going to happen. Like, the people who are trying to stop it need to be able to do the work to stop it, to the legal work and the advocacy work without getting locked up. I mean, you talk about Jerry Nadler. I mean, it just highlights the kind of the perversity here that, you know, the UN is over on the east side, and it takes, you know, the UN and like an international body to notice what's going on just across the park on the Upper West Side to say, hey, this guy has been under house arrest for over two years now for totally arbitrary, indefensible reasons. And like, this is what the U.S. legal system is

countenancing and supporting. And it takes like, you know, it takes the UN to notice that. And Jerry Nadler, he lives on the Upper West Side, too. He probably lives two blocks away from you. And he's looking the other way. Oh, he can't comment on it. I mean, as you just laid out, it should be obvious the reasons why. But you know what? Like, he can't comment. I mean, first of all, we've sent him 24,000 emails asking him to get him off. Like, pick up the phone and call me. Come by and say hello. I mean, if you can't comment, come by and say, I'm in solidarity with you, although I can't comment on the case, even though I know you can. You know, it's just, it's cowardice. You cannot continue to turn as an elected leader, turn a blind eye to this human

rights violation on New York soil. But you know, there's a real failure of institutions in our country. I mean, the New York Times, for example, has completely ignored the story. There are 30 minute walks from my apartment, where I've been locked up for two years. And by the way, you know, I went to Harvard Law School, not that that means anything other than the fact, you know, those are the types of people the New York Times usually covers, right? Yeah. I mean, Barack Obama was in my law school class as was Neil Gorsuch. So isn't it kind of interesting that a classmate of a law school classmate of Obama is locked up for two years in his home in Manhattan on a misdemeanor? Like, where is the New York Times? I mean, you could actually think I'm a bad guy

and still find the story newsworthy. But you know, we know that Chevron's a major advertiser. We know that Gibson Dunn and Crutcher, which is the Chevron law firm attacking me, also works for the New York Times on media issues. I mean, the paper is conflicted and it's lost its muscle. It's lost a lot of its integrity. You know, and I just find that extraordinary. And by the way, the reason the fossil fuel industry is consolidating so much power is because these institutions are failing. I mean, Nadler, Schumer, Gillibrand, no courage, speak out, stop turning a blind eye. New York Times, send a reporter to walk 30 minutes to my apartment and interview me and tell this story. CNN, where are you? MSNBC. You know, you act like you're this big liberal network. In the

meantime, you take major oil money and you haven't covered this story. You know, Rachel Maddow wrote a book on the oil industry. Where is she? You know, Chris Hayes. I mean, come on. So there's a complete silencing going on of a major story in America by the big media. I will say, though, that independent media like you and others like Chris Hedges and, you know, James North of the nation and, you know, several individuals have done crystal ball, have done great reporting on this case. But the big media is completely ignored. So, you know, when your case went to trial, I mean, you and your lawyers, Martin Garbus and Ron Cubie, you were expecting this outcome. You were expecting to be, you know, convicted of

this misdemeanor charge that's now kept you incarcerated for over two years. And, you know, you were expecting, I mean, what are you expecting tomorrow? You go in there, you walk into that courtroom to be sentenced. You said that you're, you know, possibly hopeful for, you know, that they'll just, I don't know, what sends you to time served and then let you out and let you out and can have your life back again. But like, there's also the possibility that what, you go to jail for six months, like not house arrest, but jail, jail. Well, I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, you know, she, the judge Presca, who is, by the way, a member of the Federalist Society, to which Chevron is a major donor, she never should have been on this case, she's conflicted. Just like my

prosecutor Rita Glaven from the Chevron law firm, Stuart and Kissel is conflicted. And the charging judge Lou Kaplan has invested in Chevron. He's a former tobacco lawyer. He's conflicted. Why are these Chevron people controlling the machinery of the prosecution? It's really scary. And, you know, look, if I were, if I could be guaranteed I would be treated like any other person in my situation that is convicted, I think falsely, but I do have this conviction now after a non-jury trial of a misdemeanor criminal contempt. The longest sentence ever given to any lawyer for that so-called crime is 90 days of home detention. And I've already served eight times that amount. So obviously she should release me based on time served, but she can still, on top of the two plus

years of house arrest, she can throw me into prison, a real prison for up to six months. I really hope she doesn't do that. We're going in, you know, in a good faith, respectful way. We're going to ask her to do the right thing and release me, particularly in light of this U.N. decision that has determined my entire incarceration for 787 days was illegal from day one. There was never a reason for it, you know, other than to retaliate for my successful representation of Indigenous groups against Shemmer. So, you know, I'm feeling, look, man, it's like kind of odd, you know, to sit here a day before you could go to jail. Like, you know, there's a rally in the morning in front of the courthouse in Manhattan. By the way, everybody around New York who wants to support me

and support the principles that I stand for, please come. It's at 830 and 500 Pearl Street at the federal courthouse. Now we're asking everyone to go into court 10 a.m. But, you know, there's a chance I walk into court tomorrow morning. I don't come out. And that's really scary. I have a 15-year-old son. I have a wife. I have a life. I mean, even on house arrest, you know, I can live with my family and be here. So, it's, you know, I'm nervous. But I'm also have peace of mind in the sense that I know the truth. I know the game they're playing with me. We have called attention to it. We've been successful in our advocacy. We've done a pretty damn good job, I think. And, you know, the remaining chapters of this battle between the people of

Ecuador and Chevron and on the side between me and Chevron have yet to be written. And I'm pretty optimistic once we get through this. Chevron will be held fully accountable for the environmental crimes that are committed in Ecuador's Amazon, which, by the way, is what this case is really about. Yeah. I mean, I wanted to ask, like, I saw just on your Twitter account that you had some visitors in your apartment of indigenous peoples from Ecuador to support you. I mean, they're doing what Jerry Nadler doesn't do. They live in Ecuador. Jerry Nadler lives down the street from you. Could you just talk a little bit about, like, your clients, like, the people of Ecuador, the victims of this, like, you know, environmental genocide being done by Chevron?

Yeah. Well, thank you for asking. I mean, just so people know, like, this area of Ecuador historically is home to five indigenous nations, each with their own language, culture, territory. And it's a northern part of Ecuador's Amazon, just south of the Columbia border. There's also other communities that are not indigenous, that moved into the region, farming communities. And all of them together have been impacted severely by the fact Chevron deliberately chose to dump billions of gallons of cancer-causing waste onto these ancestral lands, including leaving about 1,000 open-air online toxic waste pits where they had oil waste in them with pipes flowing the waste into rivers and streams that local people relied on for their

drinking water. I mean, this is a horrendous humanitarian and public health crisis. And it was done deliberately to add a pure greed by Texaco, now Chevron. So the people I represent are wonderful people. They're peace-loving people. They were very wealthy until Texaco showed up and started poisoning their land. I mean, they didn't have money as we know it, but they had great light. They had food, clean water, clean air, you know, materials to build their homes. They had the ability to get medicines out of the forest. I mean, the word cancer wasn't even in the vocabulary because there was no exposure to toxic chemicals that caused cancer that you see in industrialized societies like the United States. So, you know, Texaco came in and

ruined, you know, in a few short years, ruined millennia of prosperous existence. And now that, you know, my clients and these indigenous groups and communities are really suffering. I mean, I mean, hundreds, thousands, hundreds, if not thousands of people have died of cancer. No one knows the precise number because, you know, Chevron, of course, will never fund a study to determine the extent of the problem they cause. But when you go down there and you talk to people and you go to these communities and you say, well, how many people have lost someone? Like a lot of hands go up. And it's just getting worse and worse. I mean, I first went down in the early 90s. Like, you know, now it's just unbelievable to start a lawsuit in year one

and year 28, there's probably a few thousand, your clients are dead because the defendant, in this case, Chevron has obstructed the process and prevented a resolution. And once they lost, they decided not to pay the judgment, which created a whole other second wave of litigation. So, my clients are hurting, but I will say as an American, North American guy, it's been the honor of a lifetime to have their confidence such that they allow me to represent them. I mean, extraordinary people. And by the way, they're successful people. They have accomplished the success of winning probably the most epic environmental lawsuit in history in this case against Chevron. So, you know, they deserve adulation, they deserve respect, and they deserve

the credit that they richly have earned by really starting this lawsuit and carrying it through. I mean, like that to me is like always been the most terrifying part of your case. And just thinking about the situation that you're in, because like, when you consider like who the forces are right against you, and consider the wanton disregard for human, like the malicious, really just malicious disregard for human life that these people are capable of carrying out, living with, doing every single day. And then you imagine you're just one person, you're just you're a lawyer. And then like, the entire US legal system, the state itself would be a real, you know, which is like, what we think of as our justice system is there to protect human life from that

kind and then or provide some sort of restitution or justice or accountability for that level of evil, really. And that that very that same system would be used to prosecute you for essentially winning a civil action. I mean, put another way, think about it, think about it this way. Chevron committed environmental crimes in Ecuador deliberately out of pure greed. They dumped 16 billion gallons of toxic cancer causing oil waste onto indigenous ancestral lands. And that's not in dispute. Okay, they admit that they claim they're not responsible because they left, but they admit they did that. The people who made that decision have lived lives where they made tons of money. They've never been charged with a crime, they've never been sued personally,

and they have essentially obtained impunity. I'm the human rights lawyer who lives in a two-bedroom apartment can barely make ends meet in Manhattan, held them accountable with my clients, and I'm the one facing prison. Let me think about that for a second, because they concocted this little criminal contempt charges a way to disable my advocacy. And you know, the sad thing is you plan is the legal system is supposed to protect the little guy, right? Isn't the legal system supposed to protect minorities and the voices of those of the entrenched interests, be they government or business want to suppress and suffocate? But instead, in this case, and in many others, but this case, in such an obvious way, they have transformed and weaponized the legal

system, the system designed to protect free speech and protect individual rights into a weapon to silence free speech and suppress individual rights. And that's the saddest part about this. You see this, yes, in other countries, a lot, Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, to name three, Hungary. No one ever expects to see it in the United States, but we're seeing it in my case in a huge way. We're also seeing this trend, this terrible trend that we're seeing in a lot of countries around the world is now happening in this country to a lot of different people. Well, I mean, to the extent that anyone is aware of your case, I mean, I think like it's obvious what's going on there. It's just a matter of like, like we said about the media ignoring this,

like, because I think like they ignore it because I think like just in just to flatly describe it, even if, you know, like I said, if someone's not inclined to like you or environmental lawyers or just civil actions in general, it's obvious what's going on in your case. And to the extent that anyone's aware of it, I think they support you. And then when you when you walk into that courtroom tomorrow, I think you should you should you should hold your head up high because there's a lot of people that are aware of you. And I just very much admire that you, you know, continuing to stand up in the face of this absolute travesty. Well, thank you. And I really believe that, you know, one of the ironies is, you know, Judge Kaplan and Judge Pressman and two judges

who I think are abusing their power by targeting me keep framing this like un violating the rule of law, like I defied a court order. Well, his court order was that I turn over my attorney client privilege documents to Chevron. So I believe it was illegal. I peeled it, which is the right thing to do as a lawyer, the ethical thing to do. And he charged me criminally. So like, I really want to pose the question as my lawyers, Kubi and Garbus have done, they've done a great job. It's like, who's really violating the rule of law here? Who's showing respect for the rule of law? It's me. You know, I'm complying with the law by appealing on a lawful order, and they are going completely outside the law by abusing their power to charging the criminal contempt of court for

doing my job as a lawyer in a way that's never happened before in the history of this country, by the way. Aside from all the other regularities, I'm the only lawyer who's ever been charged with criminal contempt of court for appealing a civil discovery order. That's technical. But I was in a civil litigation against Chevron. The discovery order was that I turned my computer over to them. I appealed it, and he charged me with a crime for appealing his own order. That's never happened before my case, which is why, by the way, the United Nations just determined this is not a legitimate case that they're, quote, appalled by what is happening and determined that I am subject to judicial and corporate retaliation for winning the pollution judgment against Chevron. How else

do you explain this treatment? You know, I am being treated so harshly compared to every other person charged with the same offense. The only explanation is Chevron is prosecuting me. Chevron is angry at me, and Chevron wants to retaliate, so they don't have to pay the people they poison in Ecuador, and so they can, you know, try to intimidate anyone who might get the dangerous idea of actually going into this field of doing this work. I mean, you know, like that to me is what, you know, like the thought I've had about your case since I first realized it is that, like, you know, you are the forefront, you are the test case for corporate prosecutions of American citizens. You know, corporate prosecutions is not a very long distance away from pure fascism,

isn't it? I mean, yeah, no, it's the pure merging of the corporate entity with the state itself. Exactly. And we're seeing that more and more, by the way. I just want to point out one thing real quick. At the Line 3 protests in Minnesota, you have Enbridge, the pipeline company, paying millions of dollars to the public police to finance their control and suppression of legitimate protest activity by indigenous peoples protecting their land. You know, so here we have again a corporation at Line 3 funding and taking over the public function of government. You know, the police. In my case, you have Chevron funding and taking over a what is normally a governmental public function, a criminal prosecution. And we're seeing this more and more

in our society where corporations are literally financing functions that normally are reserved for the public, for the state as a way to control the state and turn it against those who challenge the corporation. Well, I mean, I think that sums it up. I mean, the UN is aware of this, increasingly more and more people, you know, in America and the world over are aware of this travesty. So just like, you know, based on everything we've just been talking about, I'm saying like, you know, if people listen to this interview, or if they've been aware of you before, you are being sentenced tomorrow, there will be a demonstration at the courthouse tomorrow. When is that? And just if you know, if anyone's not in Manhattan or still would like to do something

to support or send an email, write a letter, what can they do? Okay, so a couple of things. One is we have a website called freeDonziger.com, D-O-N-Z-I-G-E-R. You can help us by donating to the legal defense fund, or if you can't do that, just sign up for the campaign, join our movement, join our campaign. You'll get regular communications about what we're doing about various activities. If you're in the New York area, come to court tomorrow. If you can, there's a rally at 830 Roger Waters from founder of Pink Floyd will be there among several other, you know, people who've been working on this for a long time, including myself, my lawyers, Kuby, Ron Kuby, and Marty Garbus. And then come into court, and it's only going to be 30 minutes, 60 minutes max, and bear

witness to what the judge is going to do. And then the final thing is if you can't come, you can actually dial in and listen to the court proceeding tomorrow, which starts at 10 a.m. Eastern time. And the number is on my Twitter, at Estonziger. There's a big graph. I don't have the numbers handy. Where's my phone? Anyway, I don't have the numbers handy, but if you go to my Twitter, at Estonziger, give me the numbers. And I'll mention the numbers real quick to dial in. If you're in the U.S., dial 877-266-8189. 877-266-8189. And then there's a code to get into the court, which is 734-2786. The code again is 734-2786. So if you use those numbers, and if you didn't write that down, just go to my Twitter feed and you can get it. Dial into the court tomorrow

at 10 a.m. Eastern and bear witness. I think it's really important that the judge know a lot of people dialed in. I think it would go a long way to helping protect me and hopefully making sure that I'm released or at least not put in jail. Stephen Donziger, all I got to say is stay strong. I'm thinking of you. I'm very much hoping for an end to this insane ordeal that you've gone through. But if not, people will continue to pay attention to this case. Thank you so much, Will, for the attention and allowing me to share my story. And I will certainly be in touch and wishing you the best as you wish me the best for tomorrow. Stephen Donziger, thank you so much. Thank you.