Chapo Trap House - Bonus: The Greypill feat. @hayleyglyphs

Episode Date: May 6, 2020

Will and Hayley discuss the pentagon's recently declassified UFO videos, the history of aliens in American culture, and what to do when you Want To Believe.

There's a whole fleet of them, look on the ASA. My gosh. They're all going against the wind. The wind's a hundred and twenty knots to the west. The whole thing, dude. That's not all that stuff, is it? That's not all that stuff, is it? But if there's a good thing, it's rotating. Greetings, friends. It's a bonus chopper here for you today.

In this episode, we will be delving into, once again, into the world of the unknown. And now is as good a time as ever if you talk about the phenomenon of UFOs, unidentified flying objects. This is obviously, I wanted to do this episode because, believe it or not, UFOs have very much been in the news recently. You may have missed the small detail of the United States Navy confirming the veracity of a series of videos captured by Navy pilots that did seem to capture unidentified flying objects.

The fact that the U.S. government is confirming that these things are real has quite a few implications, and I hope to suss out all of them with our guest. Returning again, you heard her recently discuss all of the Star Wars prequels to us, but Hailey is a resident not just of made-up, make-believe aliens in the universe as they inhabit it, but our very own universe, and the aliens that may or may not be inhabiting our solar system and planet at this very moment. Hailey, how are you doing? I don't want to go into that, but yeah.

I didn't know how I'm doing it. Just the facts, just the facts. Yeah, I can't address that on a factual basis. Yeah, thank you for bringing me back to talk about real aliens, which actually is like that was, when I was a kid, I was terrified of real aliens like greys and stuff, but I loved Star Wars, and my parents could not understand why one alien would be so popular and why another alien would be so unpopular with me.

And maybe we'll get into, like, what is the human revulsion to the grey and the real aliens of the world? Well, I mean, yeah, I still don't know whether the grey is friend or foe, but maybe the answer is not so simpler. It's pretty obvious when you look into it's black eyes. That's just me. When you see your reflection in their black or black eyes. I haven't had regression therapy yet, so I don't exactly know,

but I've got a name for it. Well, okay, just a word of preface to begin this episode, because, you know, honestly, we have on chat about dipped our toe into a lot of conspiracy theories over the course of the show, and I think, you know, I'm sort of at a place now where I have believed in all of them, but that doesn't necessarily mean I'm a total believer. So, you know, I'm not here to debunk or prove the existence of intelligent life elsewhere in the galaxy or their intervention in human affairs.

I'm just more interested in the story itself and some of the corroborating details about it that has just cropped up. So, to begin, I'd like to start talking by, you know, like this recent news story, and I'm just going to read here from The Guardian. Pentagon releases three UFO videos taken by U.S. Navy pilots. The Pentagon on Monday released three declassified videos that show U.S. Navy pilots encountering what appear to be unidentified flying objects. The grainy videos, which the Pentagon say depict unexplained aerial phenomena,

were previously leaked with some believing they show alien UFOs. The Pentagon said it released the footage to clear up any misconceptions by the public on whether or not the footage that has been circulating was real or whether or not there is more to the videos. A statement on the Department of Defense website said. So, it's basically they're releasing the videos just to clear up any confusion. They're releasing the videos to be like, yes, the videos are real, and that should clear up any confusion about what they are,

which it seems to ask my ex- I think the videos speak for themselves. You know, I mean, it's weird. But like they said, they finally declassified them because they determined that they did not contain any sensitive information about, you know, aircraft capabilities or secret technologies or shit like that. So, they claimed it was essentially safe to, not just like, the videos are already released, but it was safe for them to confirm their authenticity.

Yeah. And then they're just like, yeah, just to clear up any confusion about that. It seems to be like that, that by confirming their authenticity, they are opening the door to a lot more confusion. Which I think is part of the intention. Yeah. But a lot of people are pointing to that as a reason to completely dismiss this entire kind of story and topic out of hand,

just because it's obviously like a CIA Psyop, you know, like Trapper Trap houses. I think it's both very true. But yeah, like, especially when you're dealing with sort of, you know, big things like these or like these big conspiracy things, it's always very hard to when you get something that seems to be confirmation from official sources, you have to ask yourself, well, why are they being confirmed and whether this is not some sort of limited hangout or in confirming it, are they leading you down

a path that they would prefer that you follow rather than focus on, I don't know, the fact that they're going to give everyone's Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein's come in the COVID vaccine. You know what I mean? Yeah. But like, but, but Haley. That's exactly what they wanted to distract from. Yeah.

But like, Haley, just the videos themselves, like, I assume you've seen them because you talk about like, what's on them, like how they were first leaked and like, you know, what you think is going on here. Because I mean, like the, what you can see, despite the videos being pretty grainy are objects, you know, floating and then moving in the, through the air in a way that defies what, you know, a normal human designed aircraft,

or at least based on the technology that we're aware of. Yeah. To be able to do it. So there are, there are three videos. They're named Flur, Gimbal and Go Fast, which is just, I guess, what people in the community have been referring to them as. Is the, is Go Fast a reference to the famous Star Trek, generation alien species of the like, sub-mental aliens

who didn't understand technology and just only wanted to quote, Go Fast? Star Trek is fast, so I haven't watched it. Star Trek is not fast. Star Trek is utopian space communism. No, no. For the record. Actually, if people, if nerds who like Star Trek are listening to this,

they should check out the British 70s series, Blake Seven, which is almost like a, like anti-Star Trek answer to it, in which like the, which is about also the Space Federation, except in that version of it, the Space Federation like, frames dissidents as pedophiles and puts them on trial for state crimes. Like, it's a good show to watch. Anyway, so I don't know about the Go Fast reference, but so these videos, I think they first emerged in like 2017

as far as I can tell. This whole thing is quite confusing because we've been through this exact same news cycle at least twice, maybe three times already since 2017. So it's hard, like, these videos have been posted by the New York Times already, like years ago. And so you've probably already seen them, and that creates a lot of confusion I think now

because I don't think people really know exactly what's going on with this. Basically, these were videos were acquired. I remember like, there was like a lot of talk in the UFO community and promises of like something big coming out. So like a lot of people in like the UFO circles worked behind the scenes to try and get this stuff released. They've been like issuing freedom of information requests, trying to get these, like a verified release of these.

They weren't able to get that, so they basically released them through unofficial channels. That's where like the To The Stars Academy of Arts and Sciences comes in, which is the Tom DeLong thing. Yeah, this is another bit of like the crossover between UFO and Choppa Lore is of course the involvement of the band Blink-182, or rather I should say a former member of the band Blink-182. So he is heavily involved in securing the release of these videos.

And has invested like tens of millions of dollars in this. So he has this thing called To The Stars Academy of Arts and Science, which is basically a research group that he has funded of scientists and you know, like theoretical physicists, people who could genuinely investigate unexplained phenomena and have some inkling of what they're actually doing rather than the usual way it is handled, which is just like by people like me who are interested in these things

but have no formal education in any of them. You know, that's usually who investigates UFOs. And so he's set up this group to actually try and get some professionals involved. One of the guys, or like the main guy he's partnered with is a man named Harold E. Putthoff, who is like a Stanford-based engineer and paraphysiologist. Yeah, Putthoff has been in the community for a long time. A lot of them are like existing figures who are themselves weird guys.

He has an interesting backstory. He has an interesting backstory himself because it's like, like you said, he's the type of person who has like a kind of stamp of a legit academic institution and some like scientific bonafides, but has, you know, was heavily involved with the Church of Scientology and the phenomenon of remote viewing. He ran several experiments claiming to have, you know, basically documented the phenomenon,

which have never been, of course, repeated. He also was involved in verifying Yuri Geller as having actual parapsychic abilities. Which is true. He did the spoon thing. Oh, Yuri Geller, hey, he stopped Jeremy Corbin from becoming Prime Minister. This is true. Lest we forget.

Is Jeremy Corbin the PM right now? No. It's because Yuri, you know, he put the psychic block there in time. But so, yeah, like, what is it? The Institute of To the Stars? To the Stars. And so basically it is a private research group, which is funded by DeLong,

but also they have like a media arm where he writes in, you know, quote marks. He writes books, which are then sold to fund their experiments. And basically they have like this fiction department, which creates books and comics and sells like TV pictures based on the paranormal research they're doing. They then create content to fund the research. So he's heavily involved in securing this release.

And basically these videos have been going around since 2017. We all knew that like the veracity of them, that they were from the Navy and they were actual Navy pilots and they weren't fake and so on. Like it was all a matter of finally like securing that confirmation that yes, we, this is like an official thing. This actually exists. You have to take it.

Haters cannot say it's Photoshop. Yeah, basically. And wasn't one of the pilots themselves sort of instrumental in advocating for the release of these videos? I didn't see that in mind. I'm mostly following like all these cranks who file freedom of information requests. But you know, like, I would imagine in the UFO community

this is something that people have been waiting for for a long time. This is the Pentagon and the US government. But like, like I was saying, like these videos came out a while ago. You know, we've seen it. We've had time to adjust to this. And really it just, if we're talking about like the UFO community, the expectations of the community and what their view of reality is

has moved so far, is so far beyond like what is in these videos that they're almost, I mean, it's cute. Yeah, the normies can get excited by it. But if you're in this, like unless you're a crank, like this is kind of old hat, yeah, because I mean, the things that you're seeing with your mind are so much more powerful and interesting than this. So like, yeah, go ahead.

Let's stick to the videos themselves though. So just like, if you haven't seen them, like, how would you describe what is on them? Like what you actually see in these videos? It's mostly just shit. It's mostly not that interesting. The first video, Fleur, is like a minute 16. Not much interesting.

It's just like grainy. And this is a sad thing is that with this confirmation of their veracity, we also got confirmation that the videos that are out are apparently it. Like there was no higher quality copy of the video that is going to come out. If apparently they do not exist, this is the best you were ever going to get off these videos. So there's not a lot to go on, really. And that first video is, to me, it never was very interesting

because it's like a white splotch on a black splotchy screen and it's sort of shaking a bit. And, you know, there's not a lot to go on. I don't understand what any of the markings on the screen mean. I can't tell what speed any of it is. It's meaningless to me. The other two videos are interesting to me because you have the pilot commentary on the top.

And that is, I think, what sort of adds some drama to it is that you have these navy pilots freaking out and in like a cool way. They're just like, dude, this is some cool shit. There's a fleet of alien furfows. Oh, my God! Roger. They're shooting shoes like that.

Yeah, what? Did you box moving target? No, I took an auto-drive. Oh, OK. Oh, my gosh, dude. Oh, look at that, man. Look at that. Like, they're just having a great time.

And those ones are interesting. They're in the cockpit of an F-18 Super Hornet doing the Sean McElwee, holy shit, holy shit, holy shit, routine. They're doing the soy face all over these things. But these ones are interesting because it actually provides you with some context. And what they're saying is, like, this, what the fuck is this? They're like saying, is this us?

And like, this isn't us. Like, this is from, like, I don't, like I was saying, I'm not scientifically illiterate enough to really get into all that kind of side of things. But from what I was reading, the projected speed of the objects is about 22 times that of the F-18. That's incredibly fast.

Yeah. And so, like, they're pretty certain. They're watching these things in front of them and they're really certain this isn't us. And then immediately, as soon as they start saying that, like, the object starts, like, turning in. Yeah. It's stopped, kind of, and it's just sort of rotating itself.

It's just realigning itself in midair, which as far as I know, planes don't do. Or, like, you know, changing direction on a time. Yeah. I mean, so these are also, like, if you notice, this interesting is the shape of the objects. The first two that came out was sort of nicknamed the Tic Tac videos because the object scene kind of looks like a Tic Tac.

It's like a small, kind of, white pill-shaped thing. The other one that came out, it's more of, like, it looks like a UFO. You know, it looks like a classic, like, UFO. The classic disc-style object. It's round. Yeah. Yeah.

It's a UFO. But again, like, it's hard to tell if these videos, because the quality of them, like, I don't know, it's like a tiny, blurry shape that really gives very little indication of whatever the fuck this thing is. So, like, that's hard to say. But yeah, like, so, I think the thing of these videos is it's interesting, and what it really shows is

it shows that people within the military broadly encounter this unexplained phenomenon. They have no idea what it is either. And enough people don't know what it is that the military is happy enough to release videos of whatever it is and be like, yeah, it's not us. I don't know. Have a look.

And also, crucially, at least if you take their admission at state value, they're sufficiently inexplainable that it would not represent a threat to their interests or national security just to sort of put it out there. Well, that was mostly to do with, like, they can't identify them as being U.S. property. And nothing in the video gives away anything, you know, that they had to protect about the pilots themselves

and the planes they're flying. So, I mean, there's really no, the videos are already out there. Everyone, like, we already knew where they came from. It was just a matter of getting official confirmation. And there's nothing in them that really, there's no, these are not, like, smoking gun videos. These do not implicate the U.S. government in, like, a secret UFO cover-up or, you know, covert working with an alien species.

Like, it's nothing like, it's interesting, but there's not even nothing beyond that to it. Unless you delve into, like, the deeper UFO lore, there's not much to it in itself, I don't think, other than that it's weird. It's not normal. They are showing, you know, objects moving in space, in the air, in a way that is, you know,

that much faster than anything that we had thought possible and not behaving like any sort of aircraft here to for encountered or explained. Of course, the explanation that I've seen a lot of people jump to is, like, oh, obviously, it's some sort of black project, like, it's something. And the fact that they released a video, I think, should tell people that that's not the case,

because if it was, they wouldn't have acknowledged it. Like, the military is very reticent to acknowledge any kind of black project. There are guys whose whole thing is just doing freedom of information requests to basically get public acknowledgement of various black projects the public already knows about. You know, because we have camera technology,

things only remain secret for so long, and so there are a lot of, you know, military airplanes and things that we know about well before there's any public acknowledgement of their existence and there's outright denial of their existence. And so if this was anything to do with one of those, I don't think they would have ever touched it, they'd just leave it as this thing on the internet.

It was some, like, you know, generational leap in, like, stealth or aircraft technology, like, you know, they wouldn't be, like, sharing that, that exists publicly with, like, you know, China, for instance. And they wouldn't even necessarily, like, they wouldn't be a cover-up, either, to hold it. Like, you know, they would just let it be a thing on the internet that cranks care about and cooks,

and that's about it. And you're pretty much, I think what this does represent is that there is a segment of people within these institutions who take this thing seriously. That is what, over the last few years, it's been a number, not just videos, but the other thing is there's been a lot of disclosures coming from Navy pilots about interactions of UFOs.

And in a lot of those things, what they're talking about is a frustration with the way the military handles these situations, which has usually just been to ignore it, and to take, to really not acknowledge experiences of their personnel who have these encounters. And that has actually slowly changed, and now I believe they actually have a chain of command for reporting these incidents, which do happen every now and then.

And there are people within the Navy who are concerned just on a pure safety, and safety for their pilots, as well as, you know, a national security front of finding out what the fuck is going on, because they don't know. And, you know, how are you read? Former Senate Majority Leader was, you know, retweeting the news story about the declassification of these videos

and being like, you know, finally, you know, we still have a lot more work to do on this issue, or like, I'm pleased with these. You know, even Hillary Clinton promised if she were elected president that, you know, she would open up the books on the, you know, U.S. government's files on things like UFOs. Trump has even said similar things.

Well, Hillary, you know, Hillary was like, she had Podesta talking about this stuff all the time. Podesta's very into UFOs as well, yeah. Podesta is a UFO guy, so is Bill. I mean, Bill is known to a lot of, a lot of, like, the big figures in the UFO scene. All the grifters of the 90s, no Bill Clinton. Like, all of those guys have given Bill Clinton their book.

He's gone, oh, yeah, it was very nice. I feel like they suspect he's sort of a fellow traveler. Yeah, well, I mean, he is interested in this stuff, and he is, there are a few UFO guys who, you know, have had semi-regular contact with him just talking about UFO stuff and what's going on. It's something he maintains an interest in. And yeah, I think UFO disclosure was something like,

I just like to imagine that Hillary is, you know, like, she's gone through who knows how many bodies, like, trying to get to the Democratic nomination, and this whole time, like, Bill and John Podesta are just talking about aliens and UFOs, and how important it is that when she gets into power, she declassifies that. And she's just thinking about, you know,

which DNC employee she can have got next, but... She can have abducted next. But yeah, you mentioned earlier that, like, you know, by themselves, it's like they don't really add up to a lot independent of whether or not you accept or are aware of a deeper UFO lore in, like, American, but, you know, broadly world culture, broadly speaking as well.

I mean, like, they're suggestive, but they don't say anything, I think, is that... This is not, like, this is not the crown jewels of, like, you know, everything, like, you know, Fox Mulder had been working his whole career to make us aware of. But why don't we talk a little bit about, like, that deeper story?

Because, like, you know, UFO mythology is, like, you know, sort of runs parallel to much of the history of America in, like, the post-World War II Cold War and now, like, 21st century era, where it's just like, you know, after World War I, America emerged as this, like, sort of one of two kind of, like, competing hegemonic global powers. And, like, a big part of that power struggle was,

you know, technology involved with, like, the space race, you know, aircraft technology, missiles, nuclear weapons, things like that. And it involved a huge amount of testing and development of these technologies on things like gigantic secret military bases. And that is also, like, where you get the beginnings of, like, you know, Roswell, which is, I think, like,

the sort of, the genesis story for, like, almost all, like, UFO mythology and conspiracy theory in our culture. So, like, Haley, what can you tell me about, like, how, like, the Roswell story, like, how it began and, like, how it sort of mutated over the years? I think Roswell in itself is, like, it's, like, the tourist trap of UFO lore, you know. I don't, it's, it's, it's fine.

It's fine. But it's not that interesting, I don't think. Like, it's also a trap because the people who become obsessed with Roswell lose their minds and become just very strange. Roswell basically- The general, the general story is that, like, they, it was, like, a UFO crashed that the United States got,

in New, like, the New Mexican, Mexico Desert. Yeah. Or something. The military, like, Air Force, like, took possession of the craft and this pilot. I mean, there's a lot of stories. Okay. But basically, the, the thing about Roswell also to keep

in mind is that Roswell in 1947 was not known to the public too much later. You know, it was not a media, overnight media sensation of an event that happened, you know, then. It became popularized much later by investigators. You know, like, I didn't think Roswell particularly matters other than being, like, I guess, like, kind of a inciting incident for the public's interest in the topic.

Like, but I think the events surrounding Roswell itself are not particularly interesting. Basically, is that there's some sort of crash, whether that is an eagerly inflying saucer, or as has been claimed, like, a Russian secret project. There was a book that came out a couple of years ago that claims that basically Roswell was a secret Russian aircraft that was downed and that the bodies recovered were not aliens,

but experimented upon human beings who had essentially been subjected to genetic manipulation by Russia, which to me is as insane as aliens. But for a lot of people, it was like, oh, finally, someone is taking a serious look at this and has come up with an actual answer. Well, I mean, I guess, like, just as a slight, like, addendum to that, like, what's fascinating to me about this

is, like, I said that all of this is happening, like, concurrently with the development of, like, a massive, like, nuclear weapons industry. Like, the huge, vast proliferation of a military industrial complex and arms race in both the United States and the Soviet Union that required, like, huge amounts of, like, state investment, all kinds of, like, secret bases and tests and, let's be honest, and, like, a huge, like, you know,

human toll of, like, the lives destroyed by these various programs, even just the development of them that, like, on its face already seems like something sinister and vaguely alien. Like, the things that we already know that just the U.S. government was up to in this period, in the post-war period and during the Cold War, is a lot going on. That was pretty rough.

Like, you know, the U.S. was, like, secretly experimenting on black men into the 70s and, you know, doing, um, making them infertile and testing vaccines and shit. Like, the... Like, testing radio, like, exploding, like, hundreds of nuclear bombs in the Nevada desert. Yeah. Like, exposing U.S. soldiers to radioactive fallout.

And without disclosing the risks of these things. Yeah, without disclosing... Yeah. Um, you know... Like, just documenting the results of what it's like to experience radioactive fallout. We already have, like, a, yeah, a verifiable paper record of, like, the sins of the U.S. empire, what it was doing in that

period. So, some of these things aren't unbelievable that it secretly went on, and it's also a... I mean, look, we know some of these things happened. So, for us, well, what we... I think the basic story is, yeah, there's some sort of crash. There's claims as bodies uncovered.

There are other claims that the body... One of the bodies was found by farmers and subsequently buried in an unmarked grave. And UFO researchers have been out at Rosward trying to find this grave ever since. Um... Doing some light grave robbing all over the desert. Well, I mean, like, the solution with it would be just to

dig up every single grave in the Roswell area and look for aliens, but they won't let you do that because it's there somewhere. I mean, it's like finding Loch Ness. Drain the lake. If we get rid of the water, you can't, you know... And that's what we should be doing, is just draining the ground to look for the bodies.

Well, it's just, like, like I said, like, even absence any, like, like a, um, an alien explanation, like all of the details of UFO lore, like, like they're already there, like the creation of, like, vast secret military bases and, like, networks of underground tunnels and, like, experimental aircraft and, like, all that shit is, like, it's already there. It's important to look at the subject, like in, like you're

saying, in the context of the time because something that comes up a lot is, uh, nuclear energy. It's the use of nuclear energy and the explosion of nuclear weapons. Um, basically, a common hypothesis, and this is something that people who have encountered beings have claimed was told to them, was that basically the development of, like, atomic power.

Uh, basically, from the moment that we split the atom, we basically started a process. And the explosions of the first nuclear bombs was, like, the signal to the outside galaxy that, hey, these people were fucking around. Open for business. Yeah, basically. Well, so the UFO lore extends well before 1947,

but that 1947 point is, like, where the modern UFO story begins, and nuclear energy and nuclear weapons are, like, key in that. Um, what you'll get is in a lot of the 1950s and 1960s contactee experiences, which is, generally speaking, like, a pretty common story. Someone is out at night, they might be driving down the highway, they might find themselves for whatever reason

an insuggestion in their head to drive out to the middle of the desert. But where does no one else around? They have an experience where a being, you know, either their car will fail or a being will flag them down, or they'll wander out to the desert to meet a being. Usually they'll be dressed in, like, a blue or silver, uh, kind of reflective shiny jumpsuit.

They'll look humanoid, they'll look human. There'll be something slightly off about them. They might look tall and lanky and kind of pallid, or they might look sort of airy and kind of blue eyes, you know, golden skin and hair. And usually what will happen is they'll be invited onto a craft and then they'll be shown basically a PSA video about the dangers of nuclear energy and told you

that you personally have to stop this from happening and they'll be let back on their way. Um, that happened a lot in the 50s and 60s. Um, and it's just one point of connection with, like, nuclear stuff and UFOs. The other big one is the amount of reports of UFOs over, uh, nuclear power plants, and over, like, I guess, um, is the ICBMs,

they're the nuclear warheads. Yeah, yeah, those are the intercontinental ballistic missiles. Yeah, so over those silos as well, there's a lot of UFO reports. And if you... I mean, this is what you'll hear a lot in the UFO community and when I was dating a physicist and I'd tell him all the UFO stories, he'd get very angry because, um,

they don't match, uh, science, I guess. But according to UFO people, they will tell you that there's a lot of accounts of UFOs being seen over, uh, nuclear power stations and missile silos and basically the UFO is turning them off, like, deep, like, turning off power to the entire facility, shutting them down. Um, I have never found any actual, like, paper work

to suggest this happening, but, you know, it... So there's sort of an anti-nuke agenda to some of these encounters. Yeah, but if you just take the anecdotal stories at face value, um, what you get is this idea that aliens... Aliens are, like, greens party voters in that they hate nuclear energy. They're chaining themselves up to the front of, like,

the nuclear power station in New York State to try to stop it from being reopened. Um... Okay, well, which would, you know, putting on my conspiracy brain, uh, you know, have a huge connection to the fossil fuel industry and the fact of what nuclear energy would... At this time, the development of it,

you know, what would it mean to them in their future of, you know, the extractive coal and gas and oil industries? I think, yeah. You know, creating these UFO-style encounters to spread there. I mean, I find it interesting because, obviously, there is, like, a huge anti-nuclear sentiment,

especially from that, like, 60s kind of hippie generation. And unsurprisingly, the paranormal experiences of that generation all relate back to the dangers of nuclear energy. And it's something that you stop hearing into their, like, the 80s is... Yeah. You stop thinking about that.

Yeah, like, they are... Like, do you sort of, like, experience or accounts in the 80s? Like, how does the story shift, or how does the agenda shift? Does it reflect the age? Yeah, there's basically, I would say, like, a few... It's like an Age of Empires, how, like, there's, like, very distinct ages,

and you just go from one to another. That's basically how it is with the UFO storyline. You know, you have this period in the 40s where it is purely, like, mechanical. It's nuts and bolts. You have the Roswell Crash. You have Kenneth Arnold, who I think is a bigger story, who is the first...

I believe he's, like, the first US pilot we know of to have reported and experienced seeing UFOs. I think he was a test pilot, was the thing, and he reports encountering UFOs when he was flying a military test plane. I think he's the first, like, pilot we can identify who had the UFO experience. During the war, of course, you had pilots reported

experiences with the Foo Fighters, which were basically the... just kind of slang name in the Air Force for unknown objects. Foo Fighters are kind of interesting in that those kind of deviate from the nuts and bolts things in that they were usually described, basically, like, ball lightning,

like, sort of, you know, some sort of sphere of energy flying alongside the plane, kind of matching the speed, sort of at, kind of, cockpit. Basically, you look across your cockpit, you're flying over, you know, Dresden, trying to bomb Nazi children, and you look over and there's, like, a big ball of

sentient lightning just following you, keeping an eye on what you're doing. And so you have that period, and then you get into the 50s, and that's when things start getting weird, really weird, and that's when we get, like, the contact-y experiences. We have people like Betty and Barney Hill,

who are, like, the first major contact-ies who, you know, like, a lot of these people were, like, pulled off the side of the road. Some Venusians picked them up, told them about how they're integral to, like, saving the world from nuclear apocalypse, which, obviously, they did because it never happened. And then that's basically,

the 50s is what's happening, is that everyday Americans are encountering very strange entities who tell them perplexing things about their importance and what they have to do personally to save the human race. And what the contact-ies usually end up doing

is, like, starting a UFO club and not really doing anything about world peace. And then you get into, like, that goes on for a while. And then you get into, like, the Mothman period. Of course, things get really weird, get more weird. You have kind of, you have John Keel, who was a huge researcher.

He was the one that wrote the Mothman Chronicles and, you know, sort of created the popularity of that story, and he had a lot of experiences that were like these contact-y experiences, but weirder, and that's basically where the men-and-black stuff starts happening, is he's having encounters with strange guys in black suits

who are, you know, driving Cadillacs, just turning up and having, like, nonsense conversations with him and then disappearing off into the night. That's a big period in the 70s. And then the 80s is like, like, everything before the 80s is weird, but it's pretty light-hearted.

It's like Star Wars Alien. It's like the Star Wars cantina, you know. You walk in there, it's a little weird, but you're like, hey, good vibes already. You get a drink, it's pretty much. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you can hang out there. The 80s things start getting nasty. It's the video nasties period.

It's getting dark. That's like the emergence of the gray. And also, like, the ubiquity of a kind of a, like, sort of sexually penetrative and, like, sort of medicalized experimentation as a trope of these experiences, right? The sinister side of this really only becomes evident then.

There are instances of sexual relations with aliens prior to, like, you know, the whole anal probing wave. But they usually had the... It's usually an afterthought. You know, sexual assault wasn't taken so seriously in the 50s and 60s. You know, if you and your wife happen to be diddled by aliens, it's just not something you really mention in your report.

It comes out much later. It's just something that you cope with privately. But in the 80s is when the sinister UFO wave happens. That's when, like, genetic experimentation, people basically being forced to have sex against their will in UFOs. That's when, like, the human hybrid stuff comes up. Basically, all the X-Files shit starts happening.

And then into the 90s, it just goes on like that, and it gets more extreme. And then into the 2000s, we're at an interesting point where, like, the 2000s, I think, is kind of the end, is the end of that kind of activity. It still happens. It really does seem like... But the amount of these stories happening is much less...

Even in, like, most UFO documentaries and stuff that I watch, most of the stuff they're investigating happened, you know, maybe stopped happening around 2012. Most of the stuff they're investigating are older stories and trying to investigate basically cold cases. At this point, there isn't a lot of really interesting, like, experiences going on, and there isn't the way you can look back and say

that these distinct waves of activity that happen a certain way have a certain pattern to them, happen to a certain type of people in a certain way. And look at, you know, the 50s, you've got contactees, you've abductees in the 80s and 90s. There isn't, like, anything I can really point to for our current period for that. So we're in this, like, weird...

We're in this weird point where, you know, I don't know what... All of the stuff that we're talking about now is basically talking about old things that have already happened. And I don't know what exactly is happening now for UFO in this sort of unknown period. And I don't think, you know, it'll probably be, like,

10 years until people start getting their aggression therapy and finding out what happened to them when they were, like, a zoomer. Well, I mean, actually, like... So I was thinking, like, about these, like, sort of different waves of, like, how these stories sort of change as you work through the decades. And I just recently just started rewatching The X-Files, which was one of my favorite shows when I was a kid.

It still is one of my favorite shows. It's, like, my probably second or third full-time, fully through the whole thing again. And, like, you know, in terms of pop culture, this was probably, like... I'm watching it for the first time because every other time I tried to watch it, I was, as a kid, I was too terrified by it to keep watching it. Yeah, there's some pretty scary...

There's some pretty scary shit on that show. Also, it's... There's some fucking gruesome stuff. We just watched, like, the one of, like, the caveman hillbillies killing babies. Oh, that one. Oh, man. That one. Oh, is it a home? That episode. Oh, man. That episode still is not shown on television, by the way.

I think it only aired once on national TV on Fox. But anyway, like, so The X-Files is, like, probably one of the most exhaustive, like, pop cultural documents of this mythology that we're talking about. And, of course, it was, like, Chris Carter, and the showrunners always sold it as, like, being, you know, based on, like, real documented cases and facts and things like that.

But I was just thinking about it because, to me, it's such a fascinating relic of the 90s. And as a show that, like, came on and, like, really tapped into the zeitgeist of that decade. And I think what accounts for it, in my opinion, is that, like, this is the era of, like, the end of history and America emerging out of the Cold War as, like, the uncontested, like, world superpower.

That, like, you know, all the real conflicts of the past were over. The Soviet Union had collapsed. There really was now no alternative to, like, liberal democratic capitalist hegemony everywhere in the world. And I think there's a certain element of, like, the Soviet Union as, like, the major global rival being there, like, sort of kept us honest in a way. And with the 90s and The X-Files,

it was really, like, a narrative about how, like, in the absence of any, like, really big other externalized enemy, like, we begin to realize, like, everything that the United States did to win the Cold War and, like, you know, up until then, like, all the darkness of that and that really, like, all that, like, interest and kind of fear turns inward and we begin to, like, look at ourselves in a way

of, like, our own government as being alien and possessing these kind of, like, terrifying god-like powers and technology and, like, and then in The X-Files narrative, literally, like, collaborating with, like, an occupying force, essentially, that, like, they were collaborating with, like, the ongoing colonization of our planet by, like, another, yeah.

I've been watching X-Files, too, and if you want to, like, get an overview of the, you know, as, like, I think, as people in this circle call it, like, the phenomenon, like, just the overall overarching story, you could do a lot, you couldn't do worse than watching The X-Files because it provides a very... the cases are fictional, but they're based, they are based off real existing cases.

You know, whether or not the actual events in them happened like people went out and interviewed witnesses and, you know, these things, the paper trail exists are these stories. And you get a good... you get a good overview of the different types of cases that happen, like, we spend a lot of time in our X-Files watching me pausing it

and explaining to my partner, like, what it's based on and pulling out my UFO books and, like, showing them pictures of... The true X-Files, yeah. Yeah, but, like, we watched the Scully episode where she gets her implant taken out, and, you know, I've got the book right here of alien implants, and I can show you all the different pictures of how they look

and how that all works. X-Files is, for the most part, like, also very accurate in terms of, like, just, like, they don't really add a lot that isn't in people's, like, experience reports. Other than those one episode where, like, sometimes they portray ghosts in a very negative light I find a lot of the time, and it's like, no one's ever died

because of a ghost. Like, ghosts don't murder people, so that's just one... Yeah, it's like, it's like sharks. It's like shark attacks, you know? Yeah, it happens a lot less than you'd think. But X-Files, I think, is also really good because of that sense of mistrust it places in the government. Like, I see X-Files, like, Chris Carter is...

He's a dumb guy. He's incredibly dumb. Like, that's a given. But he's a dumb guy. That's why the show works so brilliantly, though. He still has the right instincts, though. He still knows, he might not know all the facts, but his instincts are more right than, like, most, like, woke liberal types.

You know, he has a correct mistrust in the government in the official narrative of any story about US history and the self-image. Yeah, absolutely. Also, I think what actually really... There's an episode we watched recently where... It's the one where there's like this guy who can magically heal people.

There's a few episodes like that. But in this one, he can magically heal people because he's like an alien, human, and he has these special powers. And the smoking man has him in prison and they have, like, this ongoing argument between each other. So, that I thought was really interesting

because most of the time you see the smoking man is like this figure who seems to be in control of everything. And as the series goes on, you realize he's just a player in this game, and he's actually in control of very little. He's answering to, like, the console. He's always... He's a middle management kind of guy.

Yeah, he's trying to stay, like, on the wheel. But to the outside, you look at it, and you're like, oh, he's, like, controlling everything. He's sitting there mysteriously. You just... You imagine all this stuff onto him, and that's what Molder does. And then they have this discussion,

and I think it's like the alien guy is saying, like, you know, you're just... You want to be one of the common dance when the new order comes. And it's like, I thought that was, like, a good insight into power because I think we tend to overestimate the competence of those in power

and the... Like, what they know. And so I think that was a good presentation because it's like, actually, they know only slightly more than you do. And they're scrambling to maintain power

and to prevent that image from, you know, that insecurity from being publicly known. And I think... I think both in, like, yeah, you think you're right, like, in a fictional and then, like, you know, realistic, like, analysis of, like, the people who are actually in power in our government

I think is, like, a good kind of heuristic to view these things with. Yeah, I'd say that the X-Files presents, like, the... And this is what I think matters about this whole thing is the particulars don't matter. Like, the facts don't matter at all. Facts rarely matter.

Um, it's like the overall story that matters and the intention and what it's kind of the inside that has. And the insight is that power is that those in power are deeply insecure and will do whatever they can to maintain what little they have.

And in the X-Files universe, it means collaborating with this kind of alien force. And to me, like, it's not that different from, like, fossil fuel companies knowing about the impacts of climate change, keeping it secret and just, like, making their offshore oil rigs taller to withstand climate change.

Like, it's the same kind of thing. Is there just all the millionaires who will, like, flee to New Zealand or whatever? Like, it's just they have no control over these events either. They just have the means to try and survive them and come out in a better position

on top of you when they start to unfold. And that's basically what we're dealing with currently, like, you know, even without aliens. And, yeah, exactly. Like, this is what I'm... Where I'm fascinated by in this is that if you, like, overlay the UFO narrative

and, like, sort of UFO mythology starting with Roswell as, like, the present. Like, if you overlay it over, like, US history and, like, the Cold War and, like, the post-war era, no matter how you tell both stories, like, the shape of them is essentially the same. And, like, you talk about, like, the, you know, how in, you know, the beginnings of this lore,

like, it was very tied to nuclear energy and, like, nuclear testing and nuclear weapons, where it's just like that. The first time we split the atom was, like, the starting gun. And it was, like, a signal, like, somewhere in, like, this universe or, like, other dimensions that, like, we had opened something that had never been done before,

that, like, you know, changed everything. It let something into our reality. And, you know, that was, of course, also dramatized in the Twin Peaks The Return. In the, you know, famous episode 8, the Trinity Test Site episode. You watched that, Haley? No, I didn't. I've never seen Twin Peaks

because the most obnoxious people in high school were into it, so I just refused to watch it. Well, if you ever make it as far as The Return, and episode 8 is, like, sort of a foundational episode, because, like, it just stops kind of halfway through and then, like, restarts in, like, in black and white where Lynch shows you the first detonation of an atomic weapon at the Trinity Site,

and, like, from there creates this kind of, like, bizarre kind of, like, trinity through which he essentially creates his own mythology about, like, how Bob and these other, like, sort of otherworldly figures and entities sort of entered our reality. It was, like, this, this, this apocal event, this, like, this, this savage violation of nature, which, like, tore the fabric of space-time itself

and, like, let these evil or otherworldly forces, like, penetrate our reality. I mean, that is basically... Alien or otherwise, yeah. It is basically the story that you get in a lot of these cases, is either you have these, like, very hippie-dippy aliens talking about how humans are going to destroy themselves and nuclear anything is dangerous

and is going to lead in the destruction of Earth, and they show you these videos of this, you know, they basically show you threads, the 80s movie, and, um, very depressed. Oh, my God, yeah, yeah. Jesus Christ, yeah. But, um, and the other one you get is, like, entities who are talking about the damage that humans are doing to the, you know, like, the other space.

Eco-environments, or... It's not just the... Well, I mean, you get the environment, but also, like, on a cosmic level, that, like, our meddling with atomic energy is basically causing, like, untold devastation on planes of existence we're not aware of. You know, that, like, basically other universes,

you know, other dimensions, for lack of a better word, are experiencing the knock-on effects of human, you know, nuclear testing. And, like, every time we test a nuclear weapon, like, a thousand fairy machine elves, you know, were evaporated instantly. Yeah. You know, that's the other thing you get,

which does fit into that whole, yeah, lynching thing. Um, yeah, but, like I said, like, as the X, like, just using the X file as an example of, like, both the mythology it depicts, but also, like, how popular that show was in the 90s and, like, how what it actually tapped into, like I said earlier, is I think this, like, this 90s paranoia of, like, America emerging,

like, unrivaled of, like, our system of government and our way of life is, like, finally conclusively, like, that's it. We won. There's nothing else. There's nothing else for us to, like, look at, really, other than ourselves. And once we started looking at it,

what we saw was, like, pretty sinister and horrifying. And, like, completely... I guess that's why you stopped looking in the X file. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, and the antithesis of, like, of the official story of, like, that, you know, we were, uh, we had to just start dominating the planet because of, you know, for freedom and democracy

or things like that. And, like, you know, it involves a huge amount of secrecy, a, of what we know now as a matter of a public record, like, the use of human beings as guinea pigs for all sorts of, like, you know, Nazi-level experimentation on them, uh, the creation of, like... A lot of mutants. A lot of mutants in the X files.

It's, like, it's something I shout at the television a lot. It's, like, he's a mutant. He's another... Kelly's found more mutants. This keeps happening. But it's, like, in America... In the show and in reality... In reality, like, like, I don't know,

it makes me think of things just, like, the lead in the water pipes all across America that causes, like, birth defects and, uh, means people have, like, less mental acuity as they develop because of lead poisoning, basically. Yeah. From childhood.

Like, I mean, through even just inaction, the US, you know, perpetrate, creates, creates sewer mutants just as it does, like, deliberately in the X files, you know? Yeah. And, you know, overlaying all of it is this kind of, like, god-like surveillance state of hugely, like, unchecked by democratic or other means,

like, like, power that is, like, secret and vast and unaccountable, even if the people involved in it are not necessarily, like, these, uh, genius-level puppet masters who are in control of everything. Yeah. The masterminds is the thing. It's like, yeah, they're all middle managers. And they don't even necessarily know who their manager is,

is the other thing. Like, they, uh, is that, like, either it is, I mean, in the X files universe, there's an answer. There's, like, an ultimate authority that is controlling these things at some point. There's, you know, always someone above in the food chain who is controlling things. I think in our reality, like, that doesn't exist.

And, you know, like, it's just... This is the thing about how all, yeah. This is the thing about how, like, all conspiracy theories at some level, like, are kind of a coping mechanism because they all do posit that there is something or someone in control of everything. Yeah. Rather than the fact that it's just, like, a, you know,

ongoing cascade of disaster. Look, I'd say, and the X files, I think, is a good presentation of this because it also, like, pre-family tells you, like, as much as Mulder is on the right track, it's obviously... It's not good for him to be on this track either. Like, he's, you know, he's, like, damaging himself

and is, like, psyche by going into this, like, warfare with the deep state and trying to uncover the truth. A sane, better Mulder... A sane, better Mulder would have just shot his shot with Scully in, like, the first season. You know, they'd be happily together. You know, she would retire, maybe go into private medical practice. You know, he would be a lawyer or something.

And her sister would still be alive. Yeah, exactly. And maybe her dad and everyone else. But it also, but it presents, I think, quite well the dangers of conspiratorial thinking and how off the track it will get you. And I think that's, like, the thing to come back to of all of this is what I would say with all of this stuff

is that the truth doesn't matter. Like, Mulder is obsessed with finding the truth and you will never find the truth. It doesn't exist. Like, there's no, like, empirical, like, focal point of reality you can get to that will explain all the things in your life. That's never gonna happen.

And even if you did, it wouldn't matter. And if you think you've found that, you're delusional. Like, it doesn't matter if it's, like, you know, some sort of religious thing, like, whatever your explanation is. It's not. It isn't an explanation. It's just something you tell yourself

so you don't have to worry about these things. And something, someone like Mulder, you know, is someone who's gone too far down the rabbit hole and is driving themselves insane because they're getting obsessed over tiny little details and the things that will confirm or, you know, provide some more light on, it doesn't matter.

All this stuff, I think, is just about creating what is good to take from it is just, like, a general sense of distrust in government and media and any institution of power and any story you are told. It's just to be suspicious and, like, critical and also be open to other people's experiences and, you know, like, Mulder, when the great

things about him is that he's, like, feeling non-judgmental and he takes people out there. He takes the victims at their word of what happened to them and works with that, you know. He doesn't assume, he doesn't bring in his own paradigm. This is, like, the way Scully does and tries to work on, not only on her terms, he tries to work up on these cases

in the terms of the victims. And, like, that's, like, sense of empathy is something I think you can take. I think, like, the important thing in the X-Files is, yeah, this is, is the general story, is that this general sense of distrust. And, obviously, people didn't learn that because you roll out of that into, like,

the post-911 period is just to go this move from that X-Files mindset. I was gonna say, like, ultimately, like, coming out of the 90s and, like, you said why there hasn't been, like, the same, I don't know, resurgence or reportings of these incidents among people, like, in the 21st century, like, again, like, after 9-11, like, guess what, like, America, we now have, like, another united purpose

and, like, another global level bad guy to obsess over. And I think that sort of did away with a lot of both the need to fill in these gaps in our own, like, the way we look at the world and our own lives and the conduct of the country we live in, but also, like, obliterated, like, any, like, acceptance of, like, a public, like, skepticism or distrust of the military or government.

A justification. You have a reason for these things happening and the reason is, like, terrorism and freedom. Like, you have an explanation. You know, like, these things are still happening. You know, all the bad things the government is doing. And, I mean, like, we knew they were happening. It was not like, like, we knew Iraq war was bad.

We knew that, uh, these people were just being tortured and innocent people were being blown apart. Just for no reason. And, you know, things like Abu Ghraib, like, we knew all of these horrible things were still happening. But we did it late, but now we had a way to kind of to compartmentalize it and reason it away because, well, it's for national security, the terrorists,

it's for defense, it's about protecting us. Is that you actually have something like 9-11 provides you with, like, well, we can't let that happen again. Like, it provides you with a thing to fear, to allow you to be okay with these things happening. Which, I guess, in the 90s, like, what were you fighting to protect by, you know, you're ignoring these things to protect some national purpose.

It was less important. Whereas, I guess, like, the same way that, like, the liberals who are, like, doing the believe Biden hashtag or whatever, like, they have something to, they're aware of what's going on and what, you know, he's been doing, but they have something they want to protect. But also, like, yeah, there's, yeah, exactly, they have something they want to protect,

so there's stakes involved in terms of, like, the psychological barriers that they'll create. There's never reason not to think about it and sort of switch off that critical aspect and just accept what's happening. And I guess, like, we have too much purpose. We have too much at stake. Like, I guess to get into, like, the absolute present moment,

like, I guess the interesting thing now is that, like, you know, now 20 years gone into, like, the war on terror, like, I would contend that, like, the war on terrorism, like, stopped really being, like, something of real, like, emotional or, like, immediate, like, purpose or valence in American life, like, as soon as Obama became president, it all just kind of faded into the background

and, like, no one was really, like, concerned about it anymore. It was just essentially taken care of. It was going on in the background. And, like, now, like, for the most part, like, people don't really give a shit about terrorism anymore. Like, I mean, I guess they do in the abstract or if you ask them in a poll, but it's, like, not an immediate concern that, like, yeah...

Well, what the exception of terrorism and what they associate that fear with has changed. Like, it's sort of merged into, like, this, like, the Blue Lives Matter thing is, like, an extension of, like, the war on terror mindset to me. Yeah, it's just, like, it's the same thing as, like, the X-Files in the 90s. It's just sort of turning inward once again.

And, like, where, like, your real source of fear is, like, your neighbors or, like, yourself. It's, like, it's in this country. It's, like, it's already... It's the calls coming from inside the house. I will say that the Obama... You know, the Obama period was a pretty good time for, like, conspiracy culture.

Like, that's when I was, like, growing up and got into all of this stuff super heavy, and I was an above-top secret every day, was, like, the Obama period. And it was, like... You talk about, on Chapo a lot, you guys talk about, like, that kind of, you know, liberal safety,

not to think about things during Obama, like, you know, like, the... the protest signs, like, saying, you know, if Hillary was president, we'd be at lunch right now. And, like, the Obama presidency, it kind of gave you a chance to, like, not have to worry about, like, all these war crimes and things happening.

Yeah. Because someone, like, an adult, someone sensible and well-spoken and smart was in charge. The guy when you saw on TV, you were, like, reassured by. You were, like, oh, he's like me, you know? And so it gave... I guess it gave people the chance

to play in their little mind palaces, and we got some great conspiracies in that period. And also, it set, you know, the right wing into such a fever pitch that they just came up with some great ideas and content... Yeah, absolutely.

Some of the best stuff happened. I mean, thankfully, if QAnon, like, we've now got, like, a new version of that, but, like, FEMA camps and the death panels, like, all of that stuff was, you know, it was a lot of fun. Operation Jade Helm.

Oh, Jade Helm, yeah. And again, like, and also, like, these are, like, all overlaid on already existing, like, conspiracy tropes and little, like, ticks. Like, one of my favorite things about, like, Jade Helm was that every Walmart in the country was connected through a network of underground tunnels.

Which is great. And it's like, yeah, I mean, those underground tunnels exist. I don't know if they connect every Walmart, but, like, again, those underground tunnels were created at exactly the same time that, like, the sort of Cold War nuclear security state was, as well.

Like, they all exist for some purpose. Yeah, I think it's just... Yeah, and they're a huge part... Oh, yeah. Every major, major conspiracy at some point delves into the existence of an underground network of tunnels.

Well, and the other thing is, the tunnels, they do exist. They actually do exist. I don't know at what level or from what purpose, but... My city has a bunch of underground tunnels. Like, we've got... There's an underground tunnel

that connects to, like, a private girls... like, a fancy private girls' school in, like, one of the nice suburbs. They have an underground tunnel that leads from, like, the principal's office. I'm kind of aware...

I'm not exactly sure where it leads to, but there's a few, and I did, like, for a while, I was tempted to try and do urban exploring and get into the tunnels, but after reading about the people, the only person I know who did go into the tunnels had to

immediately be hospitalized after he came out because it was just, like, filled with sewer water and rats and... tetanus. But yeah, these tunnels exist. That just sounds like a sewer. That just sounds like a sewer.

When I've been in the stores as well, like, they're fine. But you can get to... If you want... I mean, like, if you want to get into... If you want to find out the truth about the tunnels, if you go into a sewer network, they eventually do you all connect

to the underground tunnel systems in your city. So it is just an easy access point. New York has, like, underground tunnels. You've got, like... Oh, my God, we've got thousands of miles. I don't like all of these... If you just dig anywhere in New York from what I can tell, there's, like, a secret underground

train station from, like, the 1920s that looks amazing, that's just been shut off and cemented over. There's, like, some sort of underground population of mole people from what I understand there. Like, there's a lot going on. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. New York City is, if you refer into tunnels,

New York City and Manhattan in particular is just nothing but... And of course, you know, like, in LA, you've got all of those underground tunnels connecting all the paedophile preschools, like... Yeah. And all the major Hollywood studios, I'm sure. But again, like, it's like, whether you believe it, whether the underground

tunnel network thing is, like, something that is, you believe 100% literally to be true. Like, as it... Yeah, trying to build underground tunnels for the elites. They carry one car at a time to deal with the horrible problem.

Everything is, like, one car, one boot, one childhood to be sacrificed. Yeah, one elite and, like, two to three sex slaves. That's the other thing, is that, like, we... In the age of Epstein, the biggest, the most extreme...

I don't know, like, I'm looking at X-Files. There's a lot of episodes about, like, you know, satanic paedophile stuff. And had I watched, like, X-Files before the Epstein stuff, I'd just feel like, oh, yeah, this is... This is funny. It's just making fun of, like, right-wing conspiracies.

And now, it's like, oh, shit, this is literally happening. Yeah. But, like I said, like, the UFO stuff, like, the Area 51, unidentified flying objects in general, but, like, or the secret network of underground tunnels, like, again, to me, like,

it's fascinating because whether you believe them to be, like, literally 100% true, like, every, like, the facts or details of it, or, like, trying to, like, make it all line up and work out, or even if you don't, what you get is essentially, like, a pretty good metaphor for,

like I said this, like, a, like, an underground, like, power network of, like, power history and culture that is, like, literally and metaphorically underground and connects everything around you, even though you're not aware of it. And, like, that to me is, I think,

what is resonant about the idea. I'd agree. Like, I didn't think you should... I think you should read the stories. The stories are interesting. People's eyewitness accounts, it's all interesting. But you can't take... you can't get too caught up in that because it will drive you insane.

You have to, like, it's like the Epstein thing. Like, you get Epstein brain. It's not good. It's bad vibes. It will freak you out. You just have to know that, like, you just have to be able to look at this stuff and go, yeah, obviously that shit is happening, like, you know, and it's something I can really do about it.

And, like, ultimately, like, nothing productive is going to come out of your efforts in this regard, other than, like, you being aware of, like, an interesting story. Unless you find a way to work the grift. Like, unless you find a way to, you know, make your

director YouTube documentary series and make a living off the Patreon supporting that, like, there's no real point unless, like, you do, like, you know, a Chapo Grift on these things. I'd say the thing about all this stuff is

it's a good lens to look at the world through. Because I think you, if you take the Grey Pill and you, you know, you look at everything at this level of suspicion, I think it's a pretty good, like,

way to look at the world and to you'll probably come out with, like, a better understanding of power and the role of government and how none of these things actually work for you than, like, the liberal mind

set will give you. Like, you're much better off being fucking X-Files poisoned and West Wing poisoned. Yes. I mean, I guess, like, just to get up to, like, our very, like, current moment, right? Pentagon confirming the authenticity of these

UFO videos taken by, you know, Navy pilots. But, like, now we're living in this, like, also very bizarre seemingly out of, like, an X-Files episode, like, quarantine, year zero, like, plague reality. And now, like, I see the

sort of the UFO story being woven into that as well, particularly as an explanation for, like, why these videos and why now. And it's either to, they're they're giving you, like, a tidbit of something cancelizing to distract you from what they're really doing, which is, like, I don't know, keeping

everyone indoors so that they can prepare, like, the five, yeah, the roll out of 5G, or, like, the culling of the global population, or putting Jeffrey Epstein's comb inside your body. I don't know if you saw this video, but there's, like, these huge, like, slender man creatures of, like, cone heads

that, uh, walking around, um, emanating 5G. I don't know if you saw that arrow here. I have not seen that video. Okay. Well, look out for those. But, like, that's what's going on. Well, check out for that. That's why they're giving us the side. But, like, okay, like, that, that, like, the explanation I give you is that,

like, oh, like, the government is doing what they always do, and this is, like, the UFOs have always been a distraction that they've been in control of to either cover up for their experimental aircraft technology or abducting and experimenting on human subjects, right? And that, like, aliens is, like, that, yeah, sure,

we know this happens. And that, like, UFOs are, like, a perfect pop-cultural explanation for that, because you get people interested in investigating it and researching it and, like, you know, it's a distraction, essentially. I've been thinking a lot about, sorry, but, like... No, go ahead.

The thing I've been thinking a lot about lately because my brain is, like, shot, it's just fucked, is it's just been stuck in my head as the idea of, like, false consciousness projects, and I've realized, you know, basically everything is a false consciousness project

and, like, the UFO thing could be to an extent, but I would say, like, it is a less... You are on a less dangerous path getting caught up in UFOs than you are if you got caught up in, like, electoralism, which is, like, as big

like a false consciousness project to trap you within, like, this narrow, confined mindset of possibilities and the possibility of your actions. You know, something like electoralism is, like, you know, designed to constrain

what you can do as a person and your ability to organize because it keeps you within these very narrow boundaries that basically says, you know, you go vote and then you stop doing, you stop doing the thinking except to donate to, like, Nancy Pelosi so she can buy, like, more ice cream

from the Satanic Mill. And, you know, like, that is... And lots of people are very engaged in electoralism and, you know, they're angrily... They're, like, right now angrily, you know, putting posts on the Patreon page demanding to know

why you were talking about fucking aliens and not Howie Hawkins. You know, like, those people are... Who is an alien, by the way? People invested in that. You know, the people who are, like, watching Matt's streams where he's, like,

you know, delving into new forms of consciousness and demanding to know what he thinks of the Green Party, like, those people are way more deranged than any UFO person. Because the UFO people are at least concerned of finding some sort of truth and meaning in the universe.

Whereas those people, I don't know what the fuck they want, what they expect. And so, yeah, like, people are trying to say that, like, the UFO thing, the Pentagon videos, any sort of delving into the UFO,

none of them is, like, basically is that false consciousness project. There's this trap that the government wants you to fall into to look into this topic as a way to keep you from looking at what's important, which is, I don't know,

the Supreme Court justice allocation or something. Like, that's the thing that drives me mad about all these people who have been dismissing this thing from... Is that they're all just, like, ah, the not videos aren't even interesting. All they show is, like, superior advanced technology

beyond the human capability. It's not very interesting. And besides, anyway, it's just, like, the government trying to why do they, you know, Trump, yet another genius moved by Trump to distract us from the, like,

they think that Trump needs any help. You know, he's he's the president. He's been the president for... He's going to be the president forever. This is... And there's nothing they can do to stop that. But, um, it's like, yeah,

you guys, like, the liberals have done such a bad job at doing anything to stop Trump. They're, like, he doesn't need to bring... He doesn't need to do UFO disclosure to help him. Like... So, yeah, I don't know. It's just that, like, with all of this

sort of dismissal of I just find infuriating and I've been getting into a lot of fights with, like, leftists on Twitter because they want to say that this is like a sigh-up, that this is, like, a CIA up to protect Trump

and to distract from the important issues like Howie Hawkins' nomination. Um, and this is not the case. Like, it's just... I mean, obviously, to say that... It could be, I don't know. I mean, well, I mean, obviously, they're using it. But that's what happens

whenever... Whenever any, like, whenever a story comes out from the media, it's a not. I mean, like, it's a story. It's what they're doing, is they're putting out a story, they have a reason for putting it out, they have a response

they want to garner, whether that's just, like, clicks in engagement or creating some sort of, you know, fake controversy around a topic, trying to gin up anger for some political end. Like, every story in the media

exists for a reason. And obviously, this is no different, but that's just... That goes for everything. Like, everything is a sigh of, you know, and... You'd be like saying that, like, you know, the New York Times reporting on any other kind of issue is

just a distraction from what your thing is. And what it really is, is that you just want to talk about the thing that you're interested in. And any distraction from that is obviously sinister. But yeah. And, you know, I think you can take some solace in this,

is that, like, that's one way of looking at why these disclosures have just happened and why we're all stuck inside our fucking apartments, losing our minds, atomized, you know, incapable of physically organizing or registering our discontent unless you're angry that you can't get a haircut

or whatever. The other thing I've heard is that all of this quarantine and the pandemic is just a cover to keep everyone indoors for when the actual alien invasion and colonization begins this month. So, look forward to that, everybody.

Well, I mean, I would be surprised. We're neatly quarantined and ready for, I don't know, to be disposed of or put to work. They decided to roll out 5G right now, like, I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen the black events, like, rolling out 5G.

Although, shit, the X-Files episode, like I watched the other day, it was like about their, you know, implanting sinister signals in TV to turn people into people. So, who knows? But, um, yeah, look, I'd say is that

people latching on to this being a distraction and stuff, it's to me very similar to, like, it's basically like if you said it's like the 9-11 it's like the 9-11 truth is, you know, 9-11 was

put to use for a political means, as like justification for the war in Iraq and creating a war in terror and increasing the size of the national security state. Therefore, 9-11 must have been an op. Like, the fact that the US government

used it to their own ends means they must have blown up the towers themselves instead of, like, power just taking advantage of a situation. You know? And so, like, I think just because they might be taking advantage of UFO disclosure to distract

from everything else going on in the government, doesn't mean that UFO disclosure isn't real and that they, I mean, what's the argument? That, like, these videos are like, one is like from 2005, one is from 2012, is the argument that

the Trump government created fake UFOs like 10 years ago to so that today there would be like a fake video to distract from Trump's latest scandal? Yes, and it's the same reason Tara Reid started this plot

back in, like, 1992 to unseat the chance of Biden becoming president in the year 2020. Yeah, or why CHAPO was created by the FSB and disracked Hillary Clinton campaign. Like, none of these explanations took advantage of it, but none of these explanations make sense.

It's just like, you know, CHAPO wasn't created by the FSB, but the CIA just used it as a means to disrupt the Democratic nomination and make Trump president. That's pretty obvious, but, you know, it doesn't mean they created CHAPO. It just means that they

invested in its creation. It just means that, like, half of our Patreon accounts are created by some sort of shady government agency. From what I understand, you don't have you guys are basically bankrupt because no one is supporting you on Patreon anymore because

they've become aware of the CHAPO to FASH pipeline. Well, they should be aware of the... It's more of a secret tunnel system than a pipeline. Honestly, like, Gwen Snyder, I was thinking, is like a good example of, like, taking of getting too concerned with the facts

over, like, the general reality of the situation of someone who has, like, a meaningful distrust of, like, you know, institutions, I guess, and the media and so has, like, you know, is rightfully suspicious of

podcasts and shit. Like, yeah, there's probably, you know, there's, like, podcasts that could be used to create narratives and so on, but she's just become so obsessed with, like, the details and the facts and the little connections that you can make

and all those little fiddly bits that she's completely lost sight of the overall picture and see, and, like, and her latest thing, where she, like, declared victory of a chapeau for you, like, having 35 less patrons this month or something, and has declared,

you know, that she's, for once and forever destroyed chapeau trap house and ended the road of fashion pipeline, is not that different from, like, you know, it's, like, when prophecy fails kind of stuff. It's, like, she's, you know, not that

different from the cult leaders who, like, realize, okay, this grift is kind of up its time to get everyone to drink the Kool-Aid and declare victory and say, well, now our mission is done. And, you know, I think that's the thing, like, she's evidence of the danger of becoming

too obsessed with the details of the conspiracy rather than just, like, using it to sort of inoculate yourself and be like, okay, everything is clearly bullshit and I have to take it all with a level of suspicion.

And that's what, you know, these conspiracies that's helpful to take from them is be like is to not trust anything too much and to always be critical and, you know, and try and understand how power works in all forms,

you know, of any relationship with the government or just individuals and to be aware of that dynamic. I think that is a good place to wrap things up and I will leave you the proof of the two catchphrases from the X-Files.

The truth is out there. Don't put too much thought in that. Even if it is out there, it won't do you any good. It's the other one. Trust no one that you should hold closer to heart. Unfortunately, because I am, like, I am someone who reads all the alien stories,

the one that, like, really stuck out to me is the data set. They say that recently and, like, that is, unfortunately, like, that's true. I mean, on one level it's true because, you know, if you read what, like, people like Nigel Kerner

have uncovered about, like, the alien conspiracy is that basically the, um, is that the mission is done, you know, from everything that, like I was saying earlier about how, like, there aren't as many kind of

encounter reports and anything. The reason for that is that the alien grays have already accomplished their mission and all the work is kind of done. You know, so not having... The 5G network is in place. And if you want to, so, you know, on one level there's that. On the other level,

you know, like, kind of the data is set, like climate change, you know, we're pretty clear, like, when we're in the narrow part of the tunnel and there's really no maneuvering at this point, and it's just about, like,

trying to survive in a way that you'll be personally quite well off for yourself, you know, and in that sense, the data is set. So... I mean, there's no point to anything. So you may as well just...

You may as well just read, you know, take this time to read up on alien lore because it's also a good distraction because they're good stories. They are good stories. Uh, I think we'll leave you on that very hopeful note. But, Haley,

thank you very much for joining me and discussing UFOs. And I would love to talk to you again sometime about, like, your favorite UFO stories and bits of lore that are a bit that are, like, less well known

than Roswell and maybe dive into Mothman and are sojourned through the X-Files. So, Haley... I didn't even mention my own UFO experiences, so, like, I'll leave that for a future interview. Haley, once again, thank you for joining us. Uh, cheers.

Alright, bye everybody. Guys, Jess and I were just outside laying on our balcony and on the second floor with all the lights off, just stargazing. We have never done this in our entire relationship.

Not outside, not in our house, never. She was like, this is gonna be cute. I freaking shit you not. What I thought was the North Star was the brightest star I could see in this guy was right next to the moon. It starts flashing. It starts flashing and, like, 40 dots, they all look like

little mini stars just start shooting out of it and falling in a perfect straight line across the sky, try to get a video, couldn't record shit, my phone wouldn't pick it up. What the hell is this? What just happened?