Chapo Trap House - BONUS: Will Discusses Biden’s Immigration Plan with Karina Moreno

Episode Date: April 1, 2021

Karina read all 353 pages of Biden’s proposed Immigration bill and joins Will to break down the good, the bad, and the same as it ever was in it. Follow Karina on Twitter: @KaryinBrooklyn

Hello, everybody. Greetings. It's Chapo coming through. It's me, Will, here with a bonus episode, as promised from earlier in the week, talking about immigration policy and joining me. Of course, I believe it was your second or third appearance. Third. Third times. Okay, breaking out that challenge coin, three-time appearance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's the prize? You get a challenge coin. It's a three-time Chapo appearance. Okay. And then, you know, if you get up to like Derek Davidson numbers, you get like a trophy. But yeah, this is our friend, Karina Moreno, and you are, you have the unique distinction. I was, it would say unique distinction, but I would say, I don't know, dubious distinction or rather a remarkable achievement is that you have managed to read all 324 pages of the new 353 pages of the new Biden immigration reform bill. And I want to get into what is in this new bill that's good, what's in there that's not good, or what should be in it, rather. But first, like, I mean, I want to talk about just like, you know, immigration in general, like now, and like the, you know, what is it, the third month of the new Biden administration, obviously, immigration was a, you know, hot topic in the previous administration, who, you know, rose to power largely about, you know, fear mongering around the issue of, you know, like the crisis at our border. And when you, when you, when you know it, though, I look in the media now today, and the big story that's in like, all the headlines is a crisis at the border. There's an ongoing crisis at the border. So I mean, I just want to like, I think on this Sunday, ABC's this week, they had their weekly roundtable that was on the US Mexico border where they were like sitting socially influenced by a border wall, talking about, in the heart of an emerging crisis for the Biden administration. And I just want to like, just kick things off by asking like, what do people mean when they talk about a crisis at the border or an immigration crisis, and is there actually a crisis going on right now at the border, or is this just a, like a media way to like, sort of plump, puff up Republican talking points and create like controversy for a new Biden administration.

Okay, so let's break it down. The government itself created a crisis. So it's a self manufactured crisis of immigration at the border. This started in the 80s, the same way that Reagan did like the war on drugs where it was like a completely disproportionate response was the way that the border just kept getting more attention. And then by both parties, I think it was just like two election cycles before both parties started saying the same thing. So is there a crisis? Yes, because the government made one. What are the features of this crisis? It's like, or is what you talk about when you say that there's a crisis is that something different than what the media and politicians say, when they when they talk about a the crisis at the border. Right, so I'm, I'm talking about something different. I'm talking about the truth. So during labor shortages in World War Two, immigrants from Mexico were allowed to come back and forth because they were labor shortages. And then, yeah, American policy has, has really backfired in the sense that in agriculture, like agricultural workers would come seasonally and then leave, like they didn't want to stay here permanently. And it's just so ironic that by immigration policies that were set in place, it ended up like taking away that possibility where you can, where you could come work seasonally and then leave. So undocumented people that were here working just they were stuck, like they couldn't go, you know, they couldn't go back home. I think that's also something that a lot of people don't know and don't think about like this was a thing that was working until it was politicized. We have the story of like ongoing escalation of just more punitive responses, and they have to like each election cycle, they have to outdo each other. Right. So that's why Donald Trump's presidency is a failure because he didn't go back past Obama in deportations. I'm kidding. But there is an actual crisis because Trump is gone, but his stay in Mexico, the MPP program. So anyone seeking asylum that made it to the border, Trump just said no.

Well, I mean, like a lot of his policy was based on deterring people from seeking asylum at the border by making the process as onerous, painful and cruel as possible. I mean, but has that changed now in the turnover in the administrations? So during Trump, they started, you know, when this MPP thing kicked in and like no one can get across like, no, you have to wait in Mexico. I mean, people set up tents. And this is still there even with COVID. This is people are just there waiting to see if something will change now with the Biden administration to try again if they were denied. But I mean, that is a crisis that people are that Mexico has no infrastructure to house asylum seekers coming from Guatemala. Well, you talk about like Mexico not having infrastructure. I mean, a big, a big issue, at least like in terms of like the politics of this issue is the infrastructure that America has to deal with this, you know, crisis and quotation marks of people seeking asylum in the country or crossing a border without the proper, you know, permits to do so. And like that infrastructure that we're talking about is the kids in cages, which is like this is a big, you know, talking point during the election. Michelle Obama said that at the convention. Yeah. So what did you say? So she said, like, you know, we can't have kids in cages in the border. Yes.

And I'm just like, okay, wait, the Obama administration created family incarceration. But that, you know, sound bites, people, people didn't ask questions. I mean, like the feature that got, you know, that was the most probably unspeakable of Trump's policy was the family separation. And like, so I have the Democrats have Biden now, they've stopped family separation. No. Or they know, okay, so yeah, like, I mean, apparently, the kids are apparently still in cages, but now everyone in the media who got so angry about it before now calling them no, they're not in cages anymore, they're in temporary holding facilities. I mean, yes, and they're in there longer. So by law, I mean, according to age, right, but you have like really, really young children, they shouldn't be held more than, I don't know, something like 72 hours. And I've like downloaded all this data for Homeland Security. No, they keep them way, way longer than that. The Biden administration hasn't really hasn't changed anything. A lot of what he's done, a lot of, you know, and people would would applaud him for just simply starting to reverse the long list of stuff that Trump did. But I think it's easy to say, I don't think it's necessarily easy to actually implement. Like, I don't know. I think it's a cruel system. And that's not going to change.

I mean, so what are we to make of these like recent photos that have been like heavily circulated that show conditions at these border detainment facilities or temporary holding locations, whatever you want to call them, whatever euphemism is currently being used, that seem to be identical to the same photos that got everyone so angry when Trump was in the White House. I mean, like, what are we to make of this now? And like, I mean, if the conditions are the same, then like, you know, what has changed in immigration policy? I mean, immigration policy is a, you know, partisan issue where they both are invested in a cruel system. I think that people are not like angry and upset. It's just that they don't really care. I mean, this is I'm quoting from CBS News here on Friday, Paul Wise, a court appointed doctor charged with monitoring conditions faced by migrant children, migrant children in US custody told US District Court Judge Dolly G that he found quote profound overcrowding at the Donna holding facility and other CPB stations in South Texas that he toured last week. So here's my question. I mean, like the argument that I think defenders of the Biden administration or defenders of like Democrats in power will make is that like, look, we need to we need to put these people somewhere. We need to put these children somewhere like these are the facilities that we have, we're trying to make them better. But like, we simply can't, you know, just ignore that they're here or like not take care of not take care of them at all or not keep track of them at all. And I guess I'm wondering is like, why do we need these facilities in the first place? Like once you've sort of documented the fact that someone is, you know, in the country illegally or without a visa or wherever you want to call it. And just pause, pause, pause, because they are asylum seekers, like they are who we're talking about, they're asylum seekers, they are escaping, they're fleeing persecution and violence in their countries. Right. Like it's not the average border crosser.

So like that that's why they're in the facilities because they've been like turn themselves in essentially to be like, I'm seeking asylum. Yeah, they're held so people don't get this right like this is not fun you get to the border you say you're seeking asylum and you're not sent to the holiday it like you are sent to one of these facilities. And you know, like, it's like, you know, it's the images we've seen are like, you know, chain link fences in these giant warehouses and people given this sort of like aluminum foil blankets that they hand you at the end of a marathon or something like that. Like, yeah, like that's the, you know, and then you're held there, essentially indefinitely. But I guess my point is like, after your claim for asylum has been registered, like you've been, you know, your name and, you know, some contact has been processed for you. Why not just basically let them go into America because where they presumably already have family, relatives, friends, someone already living in this country for quite some time, like that they could there's a community there that they could fit into. Yeah, have some support network to, you know, like to go on their life and then what give them a just a hearing date for like an immigration court. Right. So there's a few things. They don't let them out that fast because they, I guess like a number of industries are making money while they're held, even though it's, you know, that marathon blanket to the immigration system is completely overburden. Like, it's just, it has no gas. I mean, Biden is adding judges or something, but it's, it's not enough. The backlog is, it's tremendous. People always go to their hearing though. So yes, you could release them, they will go to their hearing.

It's like over 90%, you know, for the last, I don't know how many years. I'm sure that that's, you know, something to invest in, like the prices or something. Like, I predict like those soon be more of that because the Biden proposal says like alternatives to detention and it's going to be some way of like technology surveilling you. So what, like, like, like an ankle monitor or something like that? Yeah. Like, like, when an ankle monitor for like house arrest is supposed to keep, continue in one location, like, would this be some sort of roaming ankle monitor to keep track of you? I mean, that doesn't seem, it doesn't seem very humane either. No, no, because I mean, there's a stigma attached to it. Like, how are you supposed to get, you know, like. Employee. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it's messed. But when, when they said alternatives to detention, like, this is, this is what I'm thinking. How does like, in terms of the Biden immigration reform bill that's, that's, that's currently being debated or I mean, hasn't passed yet? No. I mean, like, so what is it? What is in this immigration reform bill? Like, in the text of it, like, it's not all bad. So like, what in it is, would you say that is good or like needed? Should it, should it be passed?

Okay, so there are a few things that are not bad and new. So for example, it actually acknowledges that, you know, the previous policies have been harmful and painful for families. It also revises the terminology in anything like legislation that has to do with immigration. So it proposes using the word non citizen instead of alien. So I thought that was nice. And it also, for the first time, mentions climate change, like how there will be refugees and asylum seekers due to climate change. But does it like codify any of what the United States's responsibilities would be like vis-a-vis to those people who are made refugees by climate change or economic deprivation? Yes. So thank you. That's the biggest, like, that's the biggest difference. Root causes has been included in previous proposals, but, you know, somewhere in independence at the back. This time, root causes is very much like at the center and the focal point of the proposal. So I think that is, you know, many years of a lot of organizing that got that done. So yeah, they mentioned this, right? Like root causes, which of course we know have to do with foreign intervention and free trade. Well, I mean, you say, you told me that a curious omission in the immigration bill is that the word Mexico is not mentioned even once in it in terms of like, you know, immigration policy is not just about like what America does to people seeking to enter this country for whatever reason.

It's about the countries that they're coming from as well. And, you know, I mean, like, obviously, like NAFTA has played a huge role in this back in the 90s. But like, I mean, should they should the goal of immigration policy be to accommodate as many people as possible who want to come into this country? Or should it be to create conditions in the countries that they're leaving that maybe that they would not want to choose not to leave if they have the choice? Right. So they're trying to do that. They're finally sort of realizing that there are certain conditions, you know, like certain material conditions that lead to migrant flows. Like they mentioned investing in like after school programs and and things like that. So very local programs in El Salvador Honduras. Which like they're investing in after school programs for kids like the police athletic league in El Salvador. Like that's going to that's going to keep people in their home countries are like not seeking desperately to come to risking their lives to come to America.

Yeah. Okay. All right. Yeah. So I mean, and this time, how much did he say? So Biden put away like $8 billion on this. When he was vice president, it was $750 million that went to each country per year. And it had, I mean, okay, now we know the answer like years later. It had no impact. It had no effect. Like it didn't, it didn't stop people from fleeing their, their countries, their homes. And you know, I mean, like, I think what gets lost and like it just, it just seems to be like, I think the way a lot of people talk, I'm like both the left and right about immigration is this idea that like, like economic migrants or refugees or people who, you know, take it upon themselves like risk their lives to travel hundreds of miles across a border illegally or to seek asylum in a country fleeing from one in which their life is in danger is incredibly dangerous and difficult to do.

So like the reason that you would do that is like, you know, Because you're fucking scared. Yeah, because you're yeah, because like this is this is life or death. I mean, like, and like the idea is like, I think people just think that like, oh, like America is so great. Like who wouldn't, if you're you're a liberal, you're like, oh, America is such a wonderful country. Who wouldn't want to come here? We should like, let everyone come to America. That's great. And if you're a right winger, you're like, oh, our country is so great, but it's being taken away because we're letting in all these, these moochers and criminals who are going to take away what makes our country great, where it's just like, okay, like, I mean, what they mean is like, what makes our country great is that there's like, you know, jobs or money here to be had, but like, other than that, it's like, it's not so great. And if you're from, you know, Honduras or El Salvador, like, you know, ideally, you wouldn't want to leave your country. You wouldn't be like connected to your community or family or the place you grew up or there'd be like a job or a future in those countries, which has been, you know, like, like that's why no one is just dying to come to America.

No, what a fucking nice and wonderful country it is. It's painful. Yeah, it's painful. Yeah, it's very painful. Like no one wants to leave that behind. I mentioned earlier the role in a previous era, like the, with the NAFTA regime and like what that meant to immigration, as least as far as from like Mexico and Central America, because you describe the effects of like, the role NAFTA played in immigration and like immigration policy in America and Mexico. It just destroyed the farm work sector in our own country. So we couldn't sell our, we couldn't sell our corn, which is our, you know, like that's our one thing. And I don't know, Walmart came in and had a better price. So it just devastated the farm sector. Free trade allowed for like corporations like Walmart to buy corn on a like a global market, like cheaper without like to import it like without taxes in such a way that undercut virtually every like small like agricultural community or farm sector of employment in Mexico itself. Like the entire like large rural parts of Mexico, which is like most of the country where most people are involved in like agricultural. It was cheaper from.

And also fishing too as well. Yeah, I mean, I don't know too much about that one. But yeah, I mean, it that still really gets me it escalated the use or or like the scope and size of the black market for human trafficking. Yeah, for, you know, shepherding people across the border. I mean, like the drug cartels control all of that. Yeah, so it's interesting. It's like this. You have open borders for commerce, right? Yeah, so money can traverse across the US Mexico border. Yeah, capital was totally unimpeded without like necessity that creates as it means the freer money is their capital is able to traverse international borders. The harder that those countries have to make it for people. Yeah, do the same thing. Yeah, so always open for commerce, but never like 10,000 tractor trailer trucks going back and forth every minute of the day.

Oh, nonstop. It's like you got to you got to crack down on that because like of the economic dislocations caused by free trade. Like it's just like, yeah, it is this perverse thing where like money is given absolute freedom and people are ever more brutally policed, surveilled, incarcerated. And yeah, I was you see the result of that. People and dead and in cages. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the United States response every time has been the same, like more of the same, the same escalation, right? Like you just militarized the border even more. And now it's not, I mean, you know, it's like military equipment like drones and shit. So you don't actually need the border patrol everywhere. You have like all these other gadgets to do that for you. And with that risk, you know, like the smugglers that they pass that risk on to whoever, you know, is paying to, you know, like cross the desert and get here.

I mean, it's like in terms of immigration policy, it's like it's an interesting issue because like as you know, as the Biden administration is, you know, begins to get going. And it's like they've done, you know, they seem to be like a lot of people are giving them credit for how fast they're moving to like, you know, spend a lot of money on the economy and stay, you know, stimulus spending and infrastructure bill and things like that. What was that fast? Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I mean, if you're still waiting for your STEMI check, keep waiting, I guess. But the point is, though, like when a lot of people complain about like why isn't Biden or why isn't his administration doing X, Y or Z. The response you'll get is that like, look, how do you get jail management to vote for it? How do you get it through Congress and the Senate? You know, you got to like take these tradeoffs. He's hamstrung in by a lot of things like judges and things like that. But the thing is on immigration policy, it really is one of the like immigration and drug policy actually. Yeah. Are like two big areas in which the executive branch has given pretty much unlimited authority. Like he does not need Congress's approval to do almost any of this stuff.

Right. So like it is just a matter of his own individual, not political reality, but his like his and his administration's individual political will. So based on like knowing what we know about like that, you know, the things he could do with a stroke of a pen, like what does it tell you about what Joe Biden actually believes about what is a good immigration policy? Right. The priority is not like what's a good policy. The priority is how to do this in a way that's like still perceived as favorable, you know, that he's seen in a good light that he's not that he's fair, I guess, you know, and there's also like all the tough on crime stuff on this, whatever. I think it's a matter of like political gains, really. And to do a policy that would actually be good would be very, I mean, you'd lose a lot of political capital. Because it would be seen as what like just giving all these favors to people who aren't American citizens and like. Yeah.

First of all, like for most people, it's abstract, right? Like if you're in Iowa or whatever, like you're not, you have very strong opinions on welfare and immigration and blah, blah, blah. Even though it's not exactly close to you, but there's this strong perception, like it's very strongly associated because it's been decades now that we criminalize immigrants. So yeah, he would lose political points because he legalized all the criminals or, I mean, I don't know how to word it exactly, but along those lines. How does the new immigration bill, how does it deal with things like a path to citizenship or like DACA or like the dreamers? So DACA, the TPP, so the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which are predominantly Latino countries, they would be immediately eligible for this pathway. The pathway is three different status. So the first segment is six years. You start off with lawful perspective status, LPI. So you have LPI for six years. And this applies to everyone from a country that is part of the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

And DACA. And because of COVID and essential worker. So if you're an essential worker from one of those countries attempting to enter America, you will be granted this LPI lawful perspective immigration status, which lasts for how long? Six years, you say? Six years. And then what happens at the end of six years? And like those six years, that means that you can like live and work in America. You could travel. You can return to your home country if you want to do it and then come back. Yeah, DACA immediately would be eligible. But this is a whole thing before a green card. So yeah, you can't vote. You're allowed residency and you're allowed to work. It's work authorization.

But is there a path to citizenship? Like what happens when that six years is up? If you have no felonies, I mean, it's a felony or three misdemeanors. So as long as you don't have those and your national security background check checks out, you can move on to legal resident status with the green card. This goes on for three years before you can apply for naturalization. And this is an improvement over a previous immigration regime, which you said, in that there is like there's some like that LPI status. It's like, you know, it's an acknowledgement that like, yes, like all these people are living and working here and they're not mappy citizens or, you know, legal residents yet. But they are, you know, should be afforded some level of, I don't know, like status or protection or they can't just be, you know, kicked out or rounded up and thrown out of the country. Yeah, it's OK. It's OK. Like it's very vague on what happens. I mean, what happens if you get pulled over? What happens if you have an IRS audit? And I mean, you're still very, very precarious situation to be in.

Yeah. And it's the longest. It's the one that lasts the longest. I mean, in the piece you wrote about it, you also talk about like the last big comprehensive immigration reform actually was passed 35 years ago. And it was Ronald Reagan's Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986, which legalized about 2.7 million undocumented immigrants and made it a crime to knowingly employ an undocumented worker. Like in our lifetimes here, like back in the 80s under the Reagan administration, like what was the framework for that immigration reform? Was this just like an acknowledgement of like how many businesses and capitalists needed these like undocumented guest workers? That's so great because yeah, that's exactly it. Like it made it a crime to knowingly, right? Like in quotation marks. But you don't have to ask anyone either. Yeah. So it's just like, if you don't know about it, you know, don't ask, don't tell is kind of the framework.

No. I mean, it was completely toothless. Like there was no real punishment or like consequence to the employer, right? Like the employee would be fucked, but the company was fine. And that started a long string of the same stuff of like the onus, like the burden is on the person. And that's why it didn't really change anything. Like you can use different, you know, like there are a bajillion ways to to work or to show like an employer something good enough to work and get by. Yeah, it's meant to protect employers. And I remember the George W. Bush administration in his second term, he wanted to do another big immigration reform bill and like the right wing like killed them for that. Like he like he like squandered a lot of political capital and I think honestly, like they kind of led directly to the rise of Donald Trump and that like they discovered that like, oh, wait, Republican voters leaving aside the ones who like, you know, own and run multinational corporations or have, you know, small businesses that require, you know, undocumented like low paid immigrant labor actually don't want immigration reform at all.

They want the opposite. They want immigrants out of this country. And Trump was like the first one who came along who actually just said that out loud and he blew away all the other Republican opponents based on the power of that appeal. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's that's the sound bite. Like that's what they say, right? Like we don't want the other they're taking advantage. They're raping my daughter. But the truth is like they will never actually let go of they have, I mean, the US has an addiction to cheap labor, free labor. Like it's not it's not going to stop. Hey, it's what it's what this country was founded on and it's what made us great.

Yeah. I just like another thing that like another sort of promise from the Biden administration was a hundred day moratorium on all deportations that has been halted by a federal judge. So like what's been going on? I mean, obviously people are still being deported. Yeah. So I mean, was it was it foolish of Biden to make that promise? Or do you think he had any intention of like following up on it? Yeah, I think it was a moment like we can all jerk off and come at the same time because he just announced I think that was the whole point just announcing it. Like I don't necessarily think that anyone cared to follow through with that.

And then George blocked it anyway. And meanwhile, even before it was blocked, they were still deporting. It's also like shows how it's very racist. Like they were still deporting black people, black Haitian immigrants. So like, yeah, like when people are the only thing about in terms of like the other kids in cages at the borders, but like they were still like, you know, if they arrive on a raft from 80, like no one thinks about it or cares. Yeah. And so like they're there. Those are free to be deported. That's not that's not a crisis.

That's not that's not something that stains our national soul because oh, like, you know, like look at these beautiful children or whatever. It's yeah, it's almost like, you know, like the scope, like they were outside the boundaries. Like you don't count. So business as usual. I mean, in the deportations that were happening to, you know, sending people back to Haiti, there were a bunch of children. I've, you know, like I saw like one headline on like the youngest one was two years old. Two years old. And that that two year old was sent back to Haiti.

Yeah. Jesus. So I mentioned like some things that are, you know, you know, minor improvements in our immigration policy that like, you know, should this bill pass. But what are some of its inadequacies? Okay, well, we'll get to that. We'll get to your predictions on what we're like, assuming it does pass or would pass. Like you mentioned a few things that are minor improvements over our like current system. But like what are what are some of the glaring inadequacies or things that are still missing from this legislation or or just the way we think and talk about it.

Or just the way we think and talk about immigration as a problem in general. So, okay, let's see. It's not enough of a of a paradigm shift, right? Like, even if it's the first to mention X, Y, Z, it's not enough to like really change the system. It doesn't say anything about detention, deportations, like policing, all the triggers that happen here, you know, just when you. So we're not, we're not abolishing ICE is what you're saying. No. Okay.

That's not it. Like it's not addressed at all. About how old is ICE as a federal law enforcement agency? Created in 2003. 2003. So this is like a Homeland Security post 9-11 things. It's like the idea that like, oh, what would we do if ICE didn't exist? And it was like, I don't know.

Like we spent 40, 50, 60 years without it before. Like it wasn't, not saying everything was great then, but like what is like what is the rationale for having an ICE agency rather than just a border patrol? Or, you know, immigration and customs? Because I guess they are immigration and customs enforcement. But you like, like a federal agencies that already exist to deal with like the border and immigration. But you need one for the one that snuck in and is here. Yeah. The one who's got like the thing is like, yeah, like once they're, once they've gotten across the border, then you need this like this federal law enforcement agency like the FBI that can go anywhere at any time and snatch people out of like, you know, their home or place of residence.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like what, like what is, what is like the threat that people think is like by allowing people to continue to like live and work here that we need like an FBI style law enforcement agency specifically for undocumented people. And it's enforced by local police. Like that's the thing that I also like I want to like ICE is police too, because, you know, the police on the local cops report shit in the database that that goes to Homeland Security nice. And that's how they are able to pick up as many people as they can. Like that's not going to change. Biden's not going to change that.

The one thing that Biden will change maybe is like where they do these, you know, like pickups during Trump. Like, so during Trump, there are some very elaborate ways. Yeah. I mean, I remember seeing right here in New York City, like, like not like, like, like ICE, like a federal agency, we're going around to like people's knocking down people's doors and Queens with like a tank. Oh, yeah. There's like having an armored personnel carrier of like fully squat kitted ICE agents raiding houses and businesses right here in New York City. Yeah. You know, what to combat the threat of some guy like who like works at a deli or something like.

Yeah. I mean, I love your question of like what like they don't represent a threat. Right. I would say it's like a symbolic thing that people are scared of. Like we're going to lose our culture. We're going to lose our language. Like we're going to start talking text mix or something like that's like people really do say these things. I think to think that like that, you know, if that's the threat, the idea that people think it could like something like that could be confronted like could be counteracted with basically people with guns.

We're going to all have to have a quinceanera. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just all that all that Latin explosion of the late 90s and early 2000s. It's being memory hold for getting rid of it. All those all those Shakira album. It's they're disappearing disappeared.

We're taking them off the Internet. Yeah. No more tamales for Christmas. I mean, this. Yeah. This is the only thing that makes sense because they instill fear. Like it's still, you know, the other and they still want to sort. They still want to make it clear that that, you know, the power.

This is our country. Yeah. You know, like you're, you know, to the extent that you're here at all. Yeah. Why our because we like you will or yeah, exactly. That could be rescinded at any given moment. And so they show that off sometimes, but they don't like they'll never do that where they get rid of everyone because then our economy would suffer. Exactly.

So ice isn't going away, but like it just just in general, like in terms of what you think of like just in terms of how we conceive of immigration as a like a problem to be solved or like the extent at which it causes. Um, uh, you know, sort of tension in American society between, you know, low weight, lower wage workers, and then like, you know, who, you know, they are sort of at odds with an immigrant population who would, you know, theoretically undercut their wages. Like, but like in terms of like, I guess what I'm asking is like, what would, what would like a humane immigration policy on like for both the countries, both for America and the people already living here or who want to live here. And then more importantly for the people in the countries who are coming to like the countries that they're coming from. I mean, that would require going back in time and not disrupting their countries. Like they've backed a lot of, you know, like not. I mean, if we're so concerned about people coming from El Salvador, maybe we shouldn't have like literally destroyed that country in the eighties. And I'm like, not just destroyed it, but put in charge of it like ruthless, violent, like psychos in that country.

That's exactly, that's exactly what they're going to keep doing. Oh, it was funny, like all of the countries that were, which like we're most concerned about where immigrants are coming from, it's Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. What are those three countries having common in the, in their very recent history? The answer is like genocidal dirty wars fought by funded by this country in the 1980s. Like not like ancient history, like very recently and in the past. And the U.S. will continue. That's why, you know, this thing won't work. The U.S. will continue to propose we need someone there.

Like at a, at a post, we need leadership that prioritizes like American businesses, business interests. So given that going back in time and altering history is not yet an option available to us. Like given the situation that exists like right now, like if you could propose some additions or changes to it and propose immigration bill, like what would it look like in your eyes? It's kind of sound weird, but it's weird to think about because that such seems like such a remote possibility. Like it would never, it would never happen. Like even this, that is, you know, somewhat better than, than previous reforms proposed. Like this isn't going to pass. I really concentrate, like I really focus on the issue of deserving this. So you talk about like the way we conceive of immigration is like who deserves to come to America. Right. Like the whole dreamers and DACA, like there was supposed to be DACA and DAPA, like the parents.

Oh, right. Yeah. And I guess like that would be the number one priority for me. Like I guess now it's like a magic wand and I can do whatever I want. Like I would, I would change like the way that immigrants are perceived, the way that they've been socially constructed over decades. And so it's very hard to change anyone's mind, you know, like facts are not going to do that. Yeah. And take away this notion of like the dreamers because they're innocent. Like they all, they all got straight A's in school, you know, they, they're on the, they're on the band. The sports team is just like, well, you know, what if there's some like mediocre shitty kids?

Like kids who just kind of suck, you know, like no one likes it. I mean, like do they still get to stay here? And then you're right. What about their parents? Yeah. Because like, you know, obviously if, if, if they have been, you know, born in this country or not born, they'll be like, you know, came here when they were very young for all intents and purposes have lived here their entire life. They have no connection whatsoever to, to Mexico or El Salvador or other Central American countries or theoretically any country that they could have, you know, been taken to as like a very small child.

Like, but then it's like, oh, okay, like generously, like you can stay here. We're going to acknowledge it's too cruel to just send you back to a place you've never really lived. But your parents though, they got to go. Yeah. And it took me a long time because, you know, like at first it's like, cool, the dreamers like, yeah, the dreamers have to get their thing. We all love to dream, don't we? And I think Obama really fucked that up with, I think, you know, like we stopped, people stopped organizing for the Dream Act because he gave them DACA, right, which was a short solution. And what, what did DACA actually like, it would actually do?

Just remind people like, what, what, what, what was that? It was a two-year program where essentially you were safe from being deported unless you committed a violent, awful crime. And, and like, is that, is that, I mean, it's only two years. I mean, like, it's only two years and you, I don't know how much it cost, but it was expensive too. Like you had to renew it every two years. Trump was very dedicated to undoing, like he tried a million times to get rid of it, to undo it, but... I mean, like, just go back to Trump for a second. Like, you know, I think, like everybody recognizes now with like Trump and like Stephen Miller, like his little gobbles in the fucking White House

that like, you know, these guys are, you know, the thing is, it's not any secret. They're quite open about it. They talk about it. They're happy to tell you about it, that they're like, the entire purpose of their like, you know, seemingly inhumanly cruel immigration policies, like child separation and just, is to make it as painful as possible to try to enter this country. To deter people that when you send them back, the idea is like, oh, they're going to tell everyone when they get home, don't even try to enter America, it'd be better to stay here. It's like, it's so, it's so awful that, you know, I don't even want, I don't even want to imagine the type of depravity that was like inflicted upon people in these like privately run fucking like ice concentration camps.

But like my point is, I mean, there, there's information, like there's a lot of, you know, like sexual, sexual violence. Like quid pro quo with ice dudes. Yeah, exactly. If you want to blanket or if you want, like, you know, this is, And then people would volunteer, like neighborhood community people would volunteer and like drop off canned food. And then, you know, like people that were held in these centers would get like food that had gone bad and had maggots in it. Or it's like, yeah, like when you see video of like people who are like volunteering to do so or working for the government finding, you know, caches of water in the desert and just pouring them out, which is just literally saying like we would like more people to die crossing the border and like, don't forget the US Mexico border is like the most dangerous border to cross in the world. Like more people died trying to cross the from the US Mexican border than like any other border in the world.

No, one of the biggest borders in the world. And it's by far one of the most dangerous. Yeah. And so like, yeah, like they just openly say like, no, like our policy is we would like more people to die attempting to enter America, because if enough of them do, then like less of them will try. Right. So like, I mean, that that's open. That's that's out there. And, you know, everyone, it shocked the conscience of so many people in this country. I think like Robney said that, too, like Robney's in his day was like, we're going to make it so awful where you won't want to. I mean, he's one of the good Republicans. I know. But like, those are the Republicans that like it's all it's all sort of basically all in the open. It shocked the conscience of this nation or a good chunk of this nation, or at least they pretended to when the election was going on. But now we have a situation where as we've just started talking about, it doesn't seem like the conditions facing asylum seekers or economic

migrants have changed at all. And it just seems worse with COVID. They've gotten tremendously worse. And it just seems to me like if you're a Republican, you have to look at like all the horrible conditions that these people are living, you know, being contained in now. And you pointed Biden and you say, oh, like, what a hypocrite. Look at the media. Like when we were doing this, you know, we were the history's greatest monsters. And you know, if they're not wrong, I mean, their attitude, though, is that, look, it's good. No, we want more of this. But like you can't call us monsters when essentially the policy is producing the exact same results. It just seems to me like the only difference for Democratic administration or liberals who are just they're had they were so outraged about kids in cages. Is that they're like, oh, like the same things are going to keep happening. But like, officially, our position is not that it's good. We want you to die. But officially, we have to say, no, we don't want you to die. We feel bad about this.

Yeah. But that's really the only difference. Yeah, just how bad you personally feel as like an American when you're thinking about children, you know, sleeping in a cage. Yeah, maybe, right, like maybe hanging a little picture of that, like in your house or something to show how guilty you feel. Or putting one of those, like, like lawnsons. We support immigrants in this house. We believe in science. We don't want kids in cages. Science. Science, bitch. Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, I mean, that's not going to change. It's only going to get worse. $8 billion or something has been has been set aside. It's nothing like when when they were giving 750 million per year, like it, it was a waste. I didn't do anything. So there's no reason to assume that it would make a difference now. And it also so here's also like one thing that's new. That's really weird. So aside from Mexico not being in it, which, like, there's some beef there. I think they just like these two administrations just talked, but I'm low. Didn't call by the like, I'm gonna didn't recognize like a Biden victory until this because he knows it was stolen. He has the real data.

He's I mean, and he speaks very nicely of Mr. Trump. So like, that's weird. But the second thing is these processing centers, processing centers in your own country. So if you are in Honduras, and you want a petition for asylum, you go to these processing centers and you wait in your own country until you get an answer. So yeah, you're just just just hanging out in a processing center waiting for the like, you know, fucking endless bureaucracy to like, which is designed to dissuade you from doing the thing you're trying to do. You know, Danes to notice you or, you know, process your form or whatever. Well, it's not like the DMV in a day. No, like you go start paperwork. And there's like, not yet like a set of time of like, how much will that be days will be weeks, like, what are we talking about? But Tim, I mean, to me, it's just weird of like, okay, so you're supposed to wait in the place where like, you're scared of being killed, like, what? And also, it's the same thing. Trump didn't want them to make it to the US border, right? Because once they get here, it becomes our problem. And then people get mad when they see pictures of, you know, people and kids in cages. But if they're just, you know, if it's El Salvador, like Honduras doing it, then it's like, well, that's not us. This is not our problem.

We're not monsters. We love people. We treat, we respect human rights in this country. I mean, it didn't say anything about like any sort of like detention center. Like, that's not in there. It's just like, you are processed in these designated centers that we're going to put in your country. And then you just like, hang on until we give you an answer. But that's the same. I mean, how is that different from Trump's policy led to these fucking tents in the middle of a pandemic and like, was awful. But this is also the same thing, like keeping people away from the US border. And it's just like, finally, you say that you were not optimistic about the chances of this immigration reform bill being passed at all. So this is all, this is all very theoretical. Thank you for listening for the last hour, by the way. But no, what do you think is going to come out of like these negotiations or is there going to be anything passed at all?

Okay, so maybe we can make a bet and see who wins. I mean, the history of immigration policy in this country is entirely piecemeal. That's what I would tell, you know, like, that's the answer. You were saying something like the Democrats, like, what is, what would they say? Like, that's the question that we should be asking them, like, why is it an entirely piecemeal, like fragmented system that is also very controlled and surveilled. And like, really know that no immigrant can get any sort of benefit because it was written in Bill Clinton's 1996, you know, biggest hits. It's still in this document, like it's still in there again. So just over and over. I think there'll be three bills, one for the dreamers, like DACA, one for agricultural workers and TPP. And the last one is because of COVID and the pandemic, the essential worker.

So if you're an undocumented essential worker, there would be a bill for you? Two thirds of essential workers are undocumented. We're deemed essential. Like currently in America. Two thirds. And like that covers like home health care workers or a lot of like a lot of other fields as well, I would imagine. So 29,000 dreamers work in health care. So I mean, we had an opportunity like for this to be a labor conversation instead of an immigrant conversation. And I think we really missed that opportunity. What would it sound like if we did have a more labor based understanding or like discussion about immigration?

So I think there's been some positive shift and like perception on essential workers and immigrants, right? People are more open to people are more open because they know that the person delivering their postmates is like the undocumented. That's something that also has these like hints of inferiority. So what it looked like, I mean, we should be having a conversation where essential workers and the dreamers and you know, like they all have the same protections, the meatpacking workers like Trump, they didn't want to work. They didn't have any like PPP protection and Trump not only deemed them essential and made them work, but he also cut their pay like negotiated like their pay cuts during the pandemic. So what would it look like? It would look like it would just be the same among the different categories.

So there wouldn't be this like categorization of like, you know, like of what trance you fit into would be a unified actually an actually comprehensive immigration reform. Rather than this, this like you said targeted at like, oh, like these are the high school kids who came here very young. These are the essential workers our economy needs because every, you know, rich asshole in the media wants their door dash delivered to them. And then like, and these are the, you know, the people that are seeing asylum or agricultural workers, right? Well, we need them because everyone needs strawberries in January, right? Yeah, I mean, there would be the same protections and they'd be able to unionize. Like that's the difference between Reagan and now, right? Like when Reagan did this, undocumented immigrants were very out of sight and COVID changed that, right?

Like now you I think more people have come to term with that. But still, it's still in this like it's there's still a distance and still like it's just someone who is sort of anonymous and then sort of like a servile role. Yes, as long as the food shows up. Exactly. That's all you kind of care about. Exactly. But but you know, but if they weren't bringing the food, I mean, like half the people in this fucking city would have killed themselves like two months into this pandemic. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, definitely. I'm yeah, I'm always amazed like how much people order out. But I was very excited once they started adding like once they added cocktails.

Yeah. Yeah. Alcohol. Let's see. Karina, do you have any closing thoughts or just anything you want to want to say to wrap this up? I think you should shout out, you know, your boy, Chapo. Well, he's he's now a permanent resident of the United States and Colorado. He's in Colorado. He's in Brooklyn.

Oh, yeah. Is he still in Brooklyn? I thought he was transferred because he was convicted. Then I will just say Karina Moreno, thank you so much for reading this bill and trying to break it down for us and our audience. If anyone would like to find your find your ratings on these matters, where should they go? You can find me on Twitter. So my handle is Gotti in Brooklyn. Gotti is K-A-R-Y in Brooklyn. Emily in Paris, copy me. Karina, thank you so much for your time.

Thank you.