Chapo Trap House - Episode 264 - The Golden Ones feat. Natalie Wynn a.k.a. ContraPoints (11/18/18)

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

Natalie Wynn a.k.a. ContraPoints stops by the Trap to discuss deprogramming incels, Swedish Muscle Nazis, small king Ben Shapiro, Jordan Peterson's messiah complex, and of course, the Immutable Law of Bone. please check out all the great ContraPoints videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/ContraPoints

Greetings friends, it's your chopper for the week. This is me, Will Menaker, joined by Matt Christman in Virgil, Texas. And I'm very happy to say our guest this week is someone who's proof that if you are a fan of our show, very, very occasionally, very rarely, but sometimes we will listen to you. And this is one that has been asked for probably more frequently than almost anything else. But don't get used to it. Exactly. Don't get used to water because you will present its absence.

We are, of course, referring to Chris Wade, who requested that this person come on and no one else. No, which is all my way of saying, do not get used to the presence of Natalie Wynne, aka ContraPoints, because you will resent her absence from our show. Natalie, thanks for joining us. Hi guys, thanks for having me. I am excited to finally go on choppo. Yes, that thing we all know and love to do.

Natalie, aka ContraPoints, if you're not aware, is a gigantic YouTube presence and star. And you primarily, if you're a listener to our show or you're extremely online and even vaguely aware of politics, you cannot help but come across the sort of code words, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-historical, and just pseudo-intellectual personalities that populate the politics of the extremely online. And YouTube is, I guess, one of the primary delivery systems for these ideas and worldviews that, if taken as a whole, really represent a kind of curdled and reactionary worldview. It sort of channels the young and alienated and mostly male into deeply nihilistic and

racist and misogynist politics. And at Natalie, as far as your work goes, you've become sort of a debunker or someone who takes these things at face value and genuinely responds to them in a very interesting and entertaining way. So I guess I just want to ask you, how did you get started or interested in this world of YouTube pedants and racists and lunatics? How did you start responding to these people? Well, it started out with me just being a nobody on YouTube, just an observer.

And I guess everyone on YouTube is kind of at the mercy of the great algorithm. And this mysterious algorithm, if you watch one video that's even sort of about politics, the rest of your life is going to be like a recommended video's box on the YouTube homepage. It's like, are you sure you wouldn't like to hear more about fascism? What about the white race and survival? Don't you want to watch a video about that? And so that's how I first found out about these people is literally just like YouTube made me watch it.

They suggested it to me. So I guess a long time ago, I had watched a lot of these debunking of creationism videos. And I think that's how I initially got plugged into this network of people who, in a few years, starting around maybe 2014, 2015, they weren't talking about creationism. They were talking about why Black Lives Matter and Anita Sarkeesian are ruining the planet. And I got like, hmm, I'm not sure that's quite right. So I mean, I would watch this stuff and I decided to start responding to it because I had, at the time, nothing else going on in my life.

So I decided to just throw myself on that grenade and I turned out to be sort of good at it. You're sort of like Marie Curie in that you've discovered something potentially very powerful and dangerous, but also maybe poisoning yourself in the process. Oh, God, that's exactly what's going on. That's terrible. Yeah, it's toxic nonsense and I'm probably going to pay for the rest of my life psychologically. But Natalie, you bring up debunking creationism and that's so funny because you brought that

up and it occurs to me now just how totally quaint and antiquated that is. That was really an era of the Bush administration. Me in particular, I was obsessed with, yeah, they're teaching creationism and these idiots think the world is 5,000 years old and if I could have gone ahead like 10 years into the future now, the shit that people are talking about now is so much weirder and skulls. They're talking about skulls. We're talking about skulls. We're talking about bone structure.

We all talk about the bones. What's fascinating to me about the creationism thing is if you look back just like a decade, it's amazing how everything that seems like the main intellectual and political debates of a moment, no one cares about in 10 years. 10 years ago, there was this religion, creationism thing and there was also all the Tea Party people and all the Republicans, all they talked about was the national debt, taxation, Obama's driving up the debt. It was the most important thing in the world to them that just completely vanished.

Tell me about it. I'm still trying to offload my say no to stem cell research t-shirts. Everybody's been biting on those for a while. The politics of the moment has mutated and shifted in very strange ways because as you're saying, during the Bush administration, I remember thinking like, oh, there's nothing worse than these right-wing evangelical Christians, these creationists or whatever. But now, right-wing politics has mutated online in a very weird way. It's much younger, it's much more internet savvy, and it's deeply, deeply even weirder

than creationism or even like the Book of Mormon and much of it is openly fascist or racist. Yeah. I mean, in a sense, what it is is just they've switched from one type of right-wing populism to another type of right-wing populism. So I guess during the Bush administration, what he was selling was like war, but he got a lot of votes by appealing to the Bible Belt. And now, no one cares, like Trump is not appealing to Christianity on any level at all, but instead

what he does is he goes after basically racist attitudes. So it's a different kind of awful cancer in the heart of the American character that he's appealing to. Yeah. Well, Trump's also fighting against the Satanic deep state. I mean, I think a lot of these evangelicals, once they locked on, they just became QAnon people. Oh, yeah.

No, the Q is incredibly religious. They really effused it with their sort of end times ideology. I think he is the rider coming to save them from the forehorsemen of the deep state. Yeah. If you go on the QAnon hashtag, like every other profile has Bible shit in it. Yeah. And I mean, let's not forget Trump, he might not really be a traditional Christian leader, but he does like to wave the Bible around and say, you guys love this, don't you?

I love it too. It's fantastic. I'm going to protect it. Don't worry. The noble oath prophesied in revelations will come and put away the dragon who wants to desegregate your school. But Natalie, like as far as YouTube goes and like political YouTube, I'd say you're one of the biggest voices and presences on that medium that is speaking from a left wing or

just broadly speaking, non-Nazi worldview. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm wondering why do you think... One of the biggest non-Nazi YouTubers. Yeah. That small sliver of YouTube. Yeah.

The non-Nazi part, right? Yeah. It's like a little... We have our own little subcategory. But like why do you think YouTube in particular is a medium that is mostly dominated by various strains of like right wing crack pottery? Well, I think it's probably comparable to AM Radio. I think that it's something where there's not the kind of traditional gatekeeping that

there is in old media, so you don't have like publishers saying like, no, you can't publish white nationalist manifestos in our paper and so you have a kind of mass distribution. Anyone can access it. It's really easy. And so people who traditionally, their viewpoints have not been able to be broadcast, finally find that they're able to do that. And sometimes that's great. Like I think all of that, some of that anti-creationist stuff that we had a decade ago was just

the result of like a lot of people who were like the only atheists in their small town were just like fed up with seeing religion constantly invoked in politics and they kind of all got together on the artificial space that is the internet. And I think that you see the same thing happening now. I've noticed with like, for instance, transgender YouTube where like a lot of trans people have been kind of fairly isolated alone geographically speaking because there's just not that many of us. And so YouTube makes it possible for us to form a community and have more power as a

result of like being able to act collectively and to communicate collectively. Well, that's great for us, but it's also allowed everyone who's been kind of sitting around the last couple of decades thinking racist thoughts. Now they're all putting their heads together and they now act as a unified political front. And that, unfortunately, is part of the political situation we're now in where these ideas that 15 years ago were considered like fully crackpot, like fringe stuff, like this is now just like what Republican politics is becoming. When I think about the contrast between your videos and the people that you're responding

to and debunking, like up until like I saw your stuff, like most of what I saw on YouTube was literally a guy sitting in a room talking into it like a computer camera in like some weird den or room that's like lit from above with like fluorescent light bulbs just bearing down on their pallid flesh. And it's just a guy talking into a computer or a laptop for like three hours about something. I mean, like the idea that anyone would watch a YouTube video that long is also insane. But the contrast with the stuff you do on YouTube, and if you're not familiar with ContraPoints, like you bring actual production values and a kind of theatricality to your

videos that is completely the opposite of the people you're sort of responding to or debunking. Yes. I think, I mean, one thing that struck me about a lot of this right-wing content is just how boring and bad it was. It's so boring. How does anyone watch it? It's amazing.

It's like this guy just droning on, just rambling aimlessly over a still image for two hours and 45 minutes. It's astonishing to me that people watch this, but I figure like, well, I'll take full advantage of the fact that they are not really using YouTube to its full potential because YouTube is by nature. It's a visual medium. Generally speaking, an entertainment platform and people generally are sort of attracted to being entertained when they're in that space.

And so by making content that's very visually interesting, that is entertaining, I hope. I guess I'm trying to use every tool available to make stuff that sort of outshines what's being made by the reactionaries. And I think that that's something I've had to do, I mean, in part because I want to do it, I enjoy being an entertainer, but in part it's almost necessity, like the standard for what you have to do on the left to catch anyone's attention is so much higher. Anyone with a webcam and a microphone can make a rant about mass immigration and get 100,000 views, but if you want to talk about more left stuff, it's a whole different world.

You have to be so good and you have to understand the opposition, understand how you're going to look to people who disagree with you and anticipate all of that and sort of deal with it. It's just very different. I think part of the reason that the lo-fi thing works, even though it seems like it would be very unappealing, is that for a lot of the guys, and of course they are pretty much entirely guys who watch these things, it's really more of just having a friend in your room, and if that's the case, you don't really need, in fact, you might kind of be

undermined by having any kind of production value because it's more like, hey, this is my buddy. He's going to talk to me about FBI crime statistics for the next three hours. I think the low production value gives it this feel of, this is an illegal dispatch from Occupied America. Yeah. Well, I think there's something to that. I think that YouTube actually, I mean, part of the appeal of watching YouTube is its homemade

quality, and that's something that actually I think about. My videos are, by the standards of the platform, very well produced, but they're still homemade. You can tell that there's no camera crew there. It's just me in my apartment with a camera moving lights around at my three-inch acrylic nails. I've sometimes thought about, because at this point I could probably hire someone to hold the camera and a crew to do that. I think that might be something I do, but I worry a little bit that it would make it

seem too professional, and therefore it would lose that feeling of, this is just some random person in her apartment messing around, which I think is part of what's appealing about YouTube. Well, just the fact that you use lighting and costumes and makeup, you already have lacked the competition entirely, you bring up the comparison to AM Radio, and I think it's an interesting one, because I think what unites the two mediums is like the standard right-wing talk radio, AM Radio, like Rush Limbaugh, listener, is like the angry man alone in his car, and he's on the way to work or doing something he doesn't want to do,

but he's alone in this sealed metal box, and he's the captain of this little world, and he's listening to the voice on the radio say all the angry things that are like seething inside of him, but the difference is he's going somewhere, he's going to a job or doing chores or he's doing something of a day. YouTube I find even more frightening because it's like you're not like watching a YouTube video for the most part if you're on the go or commuting somewhere, it literally is like you're sitting in the room on the laptop watching another person sitting alone in their room on the laptop talk for like hours at a time, so it's really even more socially isolated

and alienated than the AM Talk radio thing. Yes, there's something very sort of Hikikomori-ish almost about the kind of audience you imagine for these videos, and I think that it's true that YouTube is, you know, despite the fact that it's video, it's like a very intimate medium in a way, and the way that a novel is, like you are speaking generally to one person at a time, often a person who's like watching it in a laptop, in bed or something, and like at least that's how I've seen people watch my videos, like in dorm rooms and things, like it's not, I mean I've been at a few occasions where I, you know, see, I'm in a room of people who are watching one of my videos, like on

a big screen, and I'm always like, oh that's weird, because that's not what I was thinking about when I made it, and I think that, yeah, understanding the medium is an important part of understanding the message, and I definitely think in the case of these, you know, reactionaries talking over a still image or like ranting to a webcam, yeah, it really is, they're speaking to someone who's disaffected, angry, and alone, not doing anything too, so that's kind of dangerous, it's his thought. That's interesting for us because, you know, we found that our show is listened to in a way that it's not intended to.

People listen to our show in a car, on their way to work, or they listen to it through headphones, no, the show is made for you to play it loudly in a boom box in a Brooklyn pizzeria causing a ruckus. Hello Brooklyn, yeah. So who are some of your favorite characters on YouTube? Who are some of the weirdos and personalities? On our show, obviously, we have our roster of figures and the sort of chapeau, mythos, our favorite columnists, these are primary people who write for a living, and we make

one of them through the written word. Who are some of the people who are your favorite YouTube characters? The weirdos who you're debunking or responding? Oh, the weirdos. Well, the first one to really capture my heart was this guy called the Golden One. Yes. Yes. What was that name again?

The Golden One? Do you know that guy? He sounds really cool. He's a Swedish. I mean, he's the best thing you could be, and he's made of it. Not the silver one or any of that. He's not the bronze one. Natalie, we need to talk about the Golden One.

We do. Isn't that what Dennis Reynolds calls himself? The Golden God, yeah. If you had to describe the Golden One to someone who wasn't aware of it, how would you describe him? I would say he's a Swedish bodybuilder who kind of larps as a Nazi, but with a very kind of, he's a very high fantasy stylization of Nazism. Imagine a man, muscles oiled and bulging, in a loincloth running through the forest,

Elvin Font on the screen, and then he talks to you about the white race. He looks like if Bojack Horseman was not a horse, but in fact a man. Bojack Man-Man, basically. Bojack Man-Man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's so, so I was like, I was like, I saw this guy and I like, it was one of these

things where like, you almost feel like fate has conspired. I was like, I need this person in my life now. Yeah. I need him in my life. Hello. Yeah. I guess he's been sort of recurring character or joke on my channel because he's the only, he's really the only figure on YouTube who's like so larger than life that he fits right

in alongside my like camp, like drag queen characters. Yeah. Like sort of like, if you mixed like Lord of the Rings with like, you know, the master race, which is, you know, not even that far of a stretch. Yeah. And yeah, like, and you talk about like, he has this sort of like, you know, in this white supremacist worldview, he very seamlessly blends Greek, Roman, Celtic, and Nordic culture into this one big stew of like imagery where he's like, has like the 300 Spartan, like

Spartan helmet on, then he's holding a Celtic broadsword and he's like, this is what we all must defend. This is what the white race stands for. Yeah. Those guys all got along really well. With a little Tolkien and Skyrim thrown in. Oh yeah. He's a big Skyrim guy, right?

And he wants to make sure Skyrim is only for whites and all there are no other races in the world. The Skyrim. Yeah. One of his like early videos that captivated me was this video, he uploaded, it was like an hour long video as it was a series of him, I guess, just is let's playing Skyrim, but sort of narrating the whole thing and it's like LARP where he had, where he was like defending the Nords against other races, against feminists, against Hillary Clinton supporters.

This was 2016. Those are the LARPs. Against the New World Order. Like, like, this was, this was the world. He's like, it's just like, I love it when, when right wing people, like, they tell you a little too much about themselves. Yes, absolutely. I mean, that's why I love the word cucks because I noticed they don't say cucks so much anymore

because I think they know that, like, they gave away a little too much of their own psychology and that's why I love the word cuck like I refuse to let them forget they said it. So what is this guy's recommendation for, I don't know, restoring Western civilization, making men uncucked? Yeah. He wants, he wants Europe only for white people. He wants essentially total end to immigration and total like deportation of all non white people.

He's like, he's, he's like jokes aside, like he's a bad man, like who wants like genocide basically. I mean on a lifestyle level because, you know, most of these guys, you know, they appeal to a young audience that's confused and just, you know, tell them, you know, what they need to do. Yeah. So he like, like Jordan Peterson or another figure like that accompanies the kind of political worldview with a self help agenda.

And in his case, that means praying at the temple of iron, which means going to the gym. It means reading fantasy books and white nationalist tracts to enhance your wisdom. You know, you know, practicing your aesthetics, taking pictures of your, of your beautiful male body before natural landscapes in front of European cathedrals and so on. Like, yeah, it's this like a fascinating like eroticism of a Nazis idea of European culture. Now you mentioned that, you know, a big part of his worldview and sort of prescriptive living advice is, you know, abstaining from drugs and alcohol and coming of any kind. Yes.

No coming. No drugs. No booze. Now, as far as the drugs goes, I'm assuming that doesn't extend to steroids. That's, that's debatable. Jordan really knows he claims to be 100 percent naughty as he puts it, but no, that's, that's complete bullshit. You don't look like how that guy looks without fucking taking steroids.

I don't care how long you're in the gym to say, but I've been a little suspicious. I'm wondering if you've ever come across a guy, this is a YouTube guy that we became interested in sort of just randomly looking at these videos. Are you, have you ever seen or are you familiar with a character called Mr. Dapperton? Hell yes. My favorite. Mr. Dapperton. No.

Oh, dude. Wow. Oh, man. Check. You should check out his stuff. Mr. Dapperton. He rules. Dapperton.

Dapperton. Like a dapper man, but he's a Dapperton. So he has his deal is that he, he does his YouTube videos in front of a green screen projection of an elegant Victorian library because he is a man of sophistication. He wears a purple tuxedo, three piece with a tux, a top hat, but he has a death stroke mask on like a comic book character mask and he does things like break down why an episode of Rick and Morty is epically hilarious or something like that. He is amazing and you should definitely check him out.

Mr. Dapperton. I'm going to look it up as soon as we record this podcast like he, he's in that like he's in the end cap mold. That's like that is the species of crackpot that he, uh, like he's like, and his thing is like, you know, like he hates social justice warriors and everything, but like he just wants, you know, a Bitcoin and guns to legal so everyone can just be free to like, you know, make as much money and he doesn't always, sadly, most of his videos, he's not in the outfit, which is too bad, especially since the mask makes it kind of hard to hear him.

But a lot of the times he'll just be recording an audio track and it'll just be a blank image and it is a drawn. It is an artistic representation of him in his mask with the top hat, but fully nude holding a gun and then two naked women being in a bed sort of looking at him longingly and then piles of bags with dollar signs on them sort of strewn around the room. Oh, he's doing great for himself. Imagine imagine Bane, but jumping into Scrooge McDuck's vaults of coins and treasures. Yeah.

This is what I mean when I say like, I love it when they give away too much. Like they, they show you they're like, it's actually quite touching. Like they show you the depths of their longings. Like, it's yeah. And like, but like, uh, it's like, I think that's really interesting though, like when they, they can't help but tell you too much about themselves and reveal their own because like these are obviously people that are drawn to this reactionary worldview because they're driven by anxieties and fears that just dominate like every aspect of their life.

But like, for instance, we make, we, you know, we make fun of it on the show all the time and similar to cuck. I think it's actually a funny thing and I don't want it to go away despite its rather noxious roots, but like the soy face thing, right? Oh yeah. Love it. Love it. I think that's funny because it does actually capture like a real thing, but the people

who are most into it and literally believe soy is like feminizing men through like sort of chemical dosing, it's such transparent projection of their own insecurity. Because the guys who they're always making fun of for doing it are the same round faced beardos that they offer. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because these, they always choose these like some kind of hypermasculine persona for themselves, but it's fascinating how transparent it is like what exactly what psychological moment leads to this.

And it's a moment of like intense insecurity. And same with like the, the cucking thing, you know, like the cooie cucks is just like, buddy, what's your browser history look like? Yeah. You've also just like you've done a whole concern with immigration is really just a kind of like sexual anxiety. Yeah. On some level, right?

Like, I think it's more than that, but it's in part that, I mean, this is a good segue now into like, you know, a big topic and like one of your most popular videos, which you did on the incel phenomenon and the ideology of incels. The video you did on this has like over a million views and it was really good and really interesting because what you do in this video, you do something that's actually very difficult. And that is like obviously we've sort of joked or talked a little bit about, you know, incels on the show. It's an inherently comedic idea.

And you are talking about people who are ludicrous and loathsome on a whole number of levels. However, they are people who are genuinely in pain and genuinely totally rejected and yes, even bullied by the society they live in. And I think you discuss this as like straightforwardly as possible without ever really, I don't want to say you don't judge them because it's impossible not to, but like, how did you approach like this topic? Well, I suppose I approached it, I mean, I sort of didn't want to sympathize with them too much because I thought that is kind of a very shallow approach too, but I also didn't

want to just mock them. So I guess the goal is what I think is the middle ground, which is understanding. So I wanted to understand them. So what I did to make this video is I spent many, many hours over a couple of weeks just like living in their forums. And it's dark, like these are like tough weeks, like I, you know, just they live in this world where their own self-loathing is kind of like socially reinforced, like they began, I think with experiences of like real experiences that are easy for anyone to relate to like

rejection, loneliness, isolation, hopelessness about love and dating and sex. And like, they then like form a really toxic and sort of fatalism about their situation, which then gets sort of transformed into this like political resentment aimed at women, aimed at feminism, and then by extension aimed at whoever made feminism possible, the globalists or whatever, the New World Order, the, you know, whatever it is. And the Jews, let's be real. And they, so to me, like that's the joy of this video is the fact that there's this simultaneous real sadness and also real evil and intense absurdity, like all mixed together.

Yeah. You capture that balance really well in that video. And what's so interesting to me about this is, as you mentioned, feelings of romantic and sexual rejection and frustration are basically totally universal. There are shared experiences that everyone, both men and women feel, but, you know, we're talking in this case about young, sexually frustrated young men, this is an experience that basically every man alive has dealt with at one point or another. Like you said, feelings of being lonely or inadequate to the opposite sex or feelings

of thwarted sexual ambition or desire. But what takes like that universal experience, what leads like a certain subset and seemingly more and more through the internet to like this really deeply like curdled and violent nihilism and hatred of women? Well, I think it's something that maybe some of them come up with on their own, but I think more of it is like a kind of, it's another one of these things, like I discussed like atheists or trans people or racists, like some, the kind of thought that's running through a lot of people's heads, but they're sort of isolated geographically and also ideologically

from the people around them, but on the internet, they can all come together and this becomes kind of an echo chamber and an amplifier for whatever ideas they've been thinking. So I think, you know, if you look at the history of incels and incel forums, like there's been something like this for pretty much the whole history of the internet. It was used to be called love shy, if you look like back in the late nineties, early 2000s, there was a form called love shy for people with more or less the same condition. And it originally, I mean, the word incel was coined by a woman who had a website called Alana's involuntary celibacy project.

And it was not just for straight men, like there were women and other people who used it. But my understanding of the history of these websites is that they increasingly became dominated by heterosexual men, and in particular, heterosexual men with a very kind of despairing and also misogynistic viewpoint. So I don't think that the original experiences are unique to heterosexual men, but I think it's, what we're seeing is a combination of, you know, these experiences that all kinds of people have, rejection, insecurity, isolation, loneliness, and then you mix that with what

I think is a kind of an issue particular to male upbringing, which is a sense that things, that one is entitled to things going better than this, you know, like, I think that people, you know, who are raised as men are sort of, you know, whether this message comes across from media or just cultural norms, like they expect to have, like they feel, everyone feels like they're sort of entitled to love, I guess, you know, and if it sort of doesn't come to them, they feel that this is unjust, unjust, it's not what they deserve. And that is, I think, what leads more to the feelings of rage is the feeling that not only are things going badly, it's not just a source of sadness or, you know, self-pity, it also

becomes a sense of, like, who did this to me, like, who can I blame for this? Yeah. And that's really what this, like, as an ideology, what this does is that it, like, identifies the enemies, like the people who have done this to you. Yeah, exactly. So, like, what are the building blocks of this worldview and ideology? So I guess it's really related to the more general manosphere idea of the red pill. So the red pill is not, you know, it's not unique to incels, it's also shared by, you

know, pickup artists, by, you know, men going their own way, vol cell people, and by a lot of all right men, too, but the notion is that women, by nature, are supposedly hypergamous. That is, they want to date men above their own social standing. But women are also, like, not very loyal, by nature, once again, this is the theory. And so the idea is that a just social order would produce, you know, these monogamous couples sort of enforced by social norms and by legal norms, perhaps, too. And that sort of guarantees every man has a woman, right? Like, that's their sort of political vantage point here.

But the idea is that since that's not the world we live in, we don't live in this conservative gender world, we live in this, like, debauched and depraved world that feminism has wrought in the sexual revolution, right, where, like, women can just do whatever they want. And that's led to the current situation, they say, where women only want to date the chads, but it is that they're jargon for, like, a, you know, a hunk, a handsome, you know, eight out of 10 or higher on the, you know, on the scale of male beauty, or rich, you know. Yeah, podcasters, podcasters, podcasters, of course, you know, yeah, exactly. And so they think that, you know, the reason for their loneliness is that all the women

are only interested in dating these guys, leaving them with no one. And so their political agenda means getting rid of the political circumstances where, like, women's hypergopist nature can come out in this way. So that means a kind of Jordan Peterson-esque and forced misogyny scenario where, you know, you would make sure that the beta guys have women available. How do they reckon with the fact that, like, no women support this? Oh, how do they reckon with the fact that women support the situation I'm describing? No, that no women would support their political ideal, that there's no practical way to ever

achieve that. Oh, they just simply don't care what women want. They think they view, I mean, this is, again, highly misogynistic. So their viewpoint is that women, essentially, are too childish to know what's good for society. And they need a patriarchal order to put them in their place, otherwise, look what's happened, you know. That's their viewpoint, essentially. Yeah, but I'm saying women have, you know, civil rights, you know, you can't, you can't

put the forced monogamy initiative on the ballot and expect it to win. Not yet, Virgil. But, you know, we're trying hard every day. At the DSA. Yeah. I mean, I think that's what they want. The DSA and forced monogamy caucus. Yeah, I think that's what they want.

I don't think they care what women want. Well, yeah, I mean, they're fascist, Virgil, so, like, I don't think that other people see it right. Civil or political rights are really easy. Well, I mean, do they have a way of achieving this? Is it through some violent revolution against the Chad and female alliance? Well, I think a lot of these guys are a little, like, you know, politically nihilistic. They sort of have given up, so the black pill is, like, you know, so there's different

ways of dealing with the red pill. One way is to just decide, okay, this is a political situation, we accept it, and then we deal with it by becoming pickup artists. So that's, you know, this was the idea of a guy, like, Roger V, who for years was sort of on this red pill ideology while also advocating this idea of game. So men are supposedly, like, men deal with their situation by developing pickup artistry and having sex with as many women as possible, essentially reasserting, like, alpha status by, like, you know, manipulating women's nature is how you would think of it in order to sort

of get this point of, like, sexual advantage over them. And by most instills have given up, they don't think they are capable of that. So what they call their worldview is the black pill, which is the idea that it's literally hopeless, probably that the political situation is hopeless, and they should lie down and rot, as they say, but they should just give up. And it's a kind of, it's a very suicidal, like, worldview for a lot of them. But for a few others, they do get political mobilized, and the one, politically mobilized, and most of those are on the Trump train.

Like, there's definitely a kind of flow from inceldom to alt-right or to alt-light, or to just generally Trump-y politics. One of the things that you point out in the video that I thought was really interesting was this idea of the skull, the immutable bone law. And we've made fun of this on the show before, like, this, you know, phrenology and the symbol of the skull in particular. And, like, you show all these memes about how, like, the difference between a version and a chat is, like, you know, just a few millimeters of jawline, and, like, essentially

that you are genetically predetermined to be unfuckable to women your entire life because of, you know, genetic accident, basically. What you said is the skull is such a potent symbol for this, because it is an object that is sort of immutable, unchangeable, and, like, the ultimate representation of, like, a bigoted worldview that ascribes all meaning to these, like, immutable genetic characteristics. Yeah, so I think this is an idea that I got, oh, bread tube, Reddit, it's going to be so excited about this. But I think I got it from Hegel, who has a discussion of phrenology, where he mocks

phrenology as, you know, equating the human spirit to a skull. And I think that this is, you know, it's still going on, right, that this is what they do, is that they say there's this solid object, this piece of, like, bone that basically accounts for your personality or accounts for your fate. So in the case of incels, right, it's what they say that they think that their destiny is inscribed in the shape of their skull. So if their jaw is too weak, if their brow is too weak, whatever it is, their wrists are too delicate, like, that's the reason why no woman will ever want you, and that's

why you have to be an incel forever. So, yeah, it's their fatalism, it's a symbol of fatalism, is the bones. And when I watched this video, like, the thing that really came across to me in a way that was genuinely both terrifying and heartbreaking, like, describing the way these people think and the things they say, is obviously, like, sexual frustration and hatred of women is, like, the fuel for all of this. But what really came across to me was, like, the most salient, like, the actual architecture of this ideology and the majority of the energy that these people spend posting about it and

thinking about it. They're dedicated to protecting themselves from the idea that anything about their life is changeable, that anything about their situation or lot in life is alterable at all. And it's this really deeply bleak nihilism about their own misery and self-loathing. Yeah, that's what I call the fatalism of it, and I think that it's not out... I don't think it's at all an exaggeration to compare incels to a kind of cult, because I think that one of the prerequisites for really belonging in an incel community is that you accept that there's no escape.

So you're sort of recommending yourself to the notion that, like, this is your identity, this is your destiny, like, you will never get... nothing will ever get better. And instead, what you need to do is sort of develop these coping strategies for, you know, which doesn't mean improving things, it just means, like, psychologically dealing with it or fantasizing about, you know, revenge, which goes on quite a lot. And sometimes people take it, starting with Elliot Roger and, you know, continuing to the last month. Yeah, the yoga studio, Pewdiepie.

The yoga studio, yes. Well, yeah, I mean, they have to insist, I mean, as a subculture, they have to insist that it is destiny, because if it isn't, then maybe there's something they could do, there's something that is within their power. And that opens this terrifying possibility of themselves not being like the ideal version of themselves, something that they could maybe work on, you know, maybe change some things. And that is way more terrifying than just sort of marinating in this stew of nihilism, especially when you can share it with a bunch of jackasses online and reinforce it to each

other. And in a much more, you know, perverted way, comforting than trying to grapple with what might be lacking in oneself. And another thing you talk about in that video, and you speak of it from your own personal experience, is the kind of pleasure, this weird kind of masochistic pleasure of confronting yourself with, like, people saying the worst things about you that's, like, you know, cut to the heart of your deepest insecurities. Yes.

So I think that one of the things that make people, I think a lot of people feel very uneasy about incels. And I think one reason is that a lot of their habits and behaviors are things that actually aren't as unique to incels as you might think. So I think this idea of, like, seeking out doom or seeking out self-abuse as a way of, like, I'm not sure, it's difficult exactly to explain why we do this, but in the video I talk about, like, by analogy to my own life, my experience as someone who's, you know, in the middle of a gender transition on the internet, like, I don't have to look very

hard to read people saying very nasty things about how I look, how I sound, how, you know, I've spent a lot of time doing that, which is terrible. And it's a little hard to explain why. It's like this kind of itch that you have, like, part of it is like, it's like this curiosity, right, oh, I want to know what people are saying, I want to know what the nastiest things people are thinking about me. It's like, because the internet, I mean, especially when you become a sort of public figure on the internet, it's like having suddenly been given the superpower to read the thoughts of

people around you. And, you know, how do you not use that? Like, suppose you have that superpower, you're sitting on the subway, people, someone looks at you, what did they just think about me? Like, that's the temptation, right, to read what people are saying about you online, because my belief is that what people say in the comments is often simply what they're thinking. Like, it's often as simple as that. And I'm curious, I want to know how I'm being perceived, but that's a kind of hellscape

to enter, you know, because people are nasty. And like, especially, you know, when you're inside this like isolation chamber of the internet, comments box or forum post or whatever it is, like, you don't have the kind of constraints of like social grace or of even just like basic humanity. So the nastiest comes out. And I think that it's something that probably a lot of people do in one way or another. I mean, a lot of some people have compared the incel forms to I didn't even think of this because this isn't in my life history, but pro-anorexia tumbler, for instance, is

I think like the kind of like teenage girl equivalent of like this incel thing, right? It's a form of like collective self abuse that also turns into, you know, abuse of other people. And I think there's something here that's bigger than just incels. Incels are just a particularly nasty version of it because it's rooted in, you know, wounded masculinity and, you know, other things like that that are known to be dangerous, not just to, you know, oneself, but other people. But I think the other manifestations of this are more just like directed inward.

So you can find women doing similar things, absolutely. As another semi-public internet personality with the same superpower, whenever I read people's thoughts on the street or subway, they're all thinking, why is the episode late? Why can't you pronounce people's names correctly? You might want to look into this because we have a firm social media policy where our listeners are not allowed to think bad thoughts about the show or the host, only think good thoughts. Yeah, I'm at that in my own comments section, too, that I am the monarch and shall but not

be questioned. Are these like the people who are deeply into this like black pill death cult? Yeah. And you point out like they post pictures of themselves so that they can be abused and told that like how worthless and genetically doomed they are. You point out that these are all normal to average looking guys for the most part. Are these people even dimly aware of the fact that semi like rather unattractive to mediocre men are having sex with women way out of their league like literally all the time?

Yeah. Well, it's funny. Not like I'm speaking from experience or anything. It's something people try to point out to them all the time and what they usually will do is they start making excuses like a little bit like, oh, well, that man doesn't count because he's rich or, oh, well, you know, that's different because, you know, for whatever thing they just make up, right, like they basically will find a reason to why that person is successful, why that person isn't really, you know, as pathetic and hopeless as they

are. So, and it's funny because even by saying, oh, well, women just sleep with him because he's rich, that still is a break into the fatalism, right? Like, You could technically get rich, right? Yeah. They don't accept that, for instance, by earning money that they could, you know, escape and sell dumb, but I think it's very inconsistent.

Like they sort of have their conclusion fixed and then they'll start just making up reasons to justify it. Going back to like the red, forget the black pill, you know, once you've, you know, gone down that hole, I mean, it's sort of hard to imagine, you know, pulling out of that kind of despair and self-loathing, but in the red pill world, like in terms of the way these people think about sex and dating, despite how, you know, toxic and ludicrous so much of it is, is there anything in there? Is there a kernel of truth to these things that like, that attract people?

Is there anything there about like the actual, like as you just got, like a marketplace of sex and dating that does speak to a real thing? Absolutely. I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a lot lately and I think that, you know, one of the things I did with this video is describe like my unusual situation of having like transition and like dated as a man, dated as a woman, like, you know, tried all kinds of permutations of what gender I am, what gender the people I'm dating are. And I think that like straight men, like, while in general they are like the most privileged

kind of sex or sex gender group in society, there are ways in which it does suck like dating from that perspective. I think that is especially true at this particular moment in history and under the current like technological world that we live in. So Tinder, for example, dating apps, like it's kind of miserable for everyone, but I think for women, the experience is that you just have so many guys coming at you and they're all so bad and annoying, you know, because women complain about this constantly, right? Like, but for men, I think the issue is that like, you know, because women get a lot of

requests, they just sort of like you kind of they kind of just check out. So men have to deal with a lot of rejection, or just a lot of just being ignored. And that I think it's like, I sympathize, I really do, because I think that takes a psychological toll. Like, it's hard to be rejected, it's hard to feel ignored, it makes you feel worthless. And I think that, you know, there's kind of an issue going on right now with like heterosexuality itself, where there's this kind of traditional script for how men and women act that involves like men being proactive, men being alpha, men initiating things, and women sort of being

gatekeepers. Now, we're in the middle of like a transformation in that with like me too, for example, that movement or the broader movement, you know, against like male sexual aggression as a thing that we've now decided is inherently kind of immoral. And so I think this is, you know, this is something I've detected in my personal life as well, that there's an uncertainty that men have with like, what are they supposed to do now exactly? Because they don't feel comfortable, you know, they don't want to be creepy, right?

Or they don't want to be like too assertive or too aggressive, because they know now that that's bad, but they're not sure quite what they're supposed to do. Because I think that, you know, the heterosexual dynamic, as I view it, obviously this is a little, you know, controversial, but I think that, you know, there's something kind of, I don't think, I don't think most straight women really want to be always the ones taking the initiative themselves either. So there's this kind of like need to find what the new sexual script is, like how, like how do we, how do we, you know, how do men know exactly how to be proactive without crossing

a line? Like it's, it's, it's kind of tough. And I think men, you know, like, like good men, feminist men, like there's a tendency that I've noticed to err on the side of caution to, you know, but, but I think, I think it's tough. I think it's especially tough if you're not a very, you know, eye-catching person on this like marketplace of Tinder where pictures are all that matters. And I think that that's, you know, that might be amplified in an environment where like,

you know, men are sending all the messages, women are just gatekeeping. And for these guys who are sort of, you know, insecure, they're inexperienced, they sort of don't know how to talk to women, they don't know how to approach dating at all. Like, and then they're just sending these inept messages or whatever they're doing, or they're just doing nothing at all and just feeling neglected, alone, isolated, hopeless. Like, I totally see how this can happen. Like I totally see why that's such a common thing. And I do sympathize.

I really, really do. I just, you know, we need to think of a way to deal with this that doesn't involve turning to this like totally poisonous, you know, misogyny. I mean, yeah, like what you're describing, like, you know, for a young heterosexual man who wants to pursue women, but is conscious of these things, like teaching yourself or learning, again, and there is like, nobody teaches you this, it's just everyone figures it out for themselves, like overcoming like, how do I demonstrate my like sexual interest, which is obvious, what's happening in any like, you know, social interaction between

men and women and sex and dating, like how do I signal that interest in a way that isn't creepy or overly aggressive or makes this person uncomfortable. And like that really is just about like learning how to flirt and like learning the kind of, you know, the kind of game that's being played. But at the same time, nobody, like there is no official rules for this and nobody like teaches you that. It's just a form of situation. And it's quite a complex social skill, it really is very, very complicated, very delicate

situation that you have to navigate. So if you're someone who's not super doesn't really have a lot of social skills, it's tough. I totally see it. So moving into another like another big figure in this world that we've discussed at length on the show, but is also, you know, figures largely one of your most popular videos, Jordan Peterson, right, like his popular daddy, yeah, he really is daddy. And he's daddy to this like world of so badly socialized and alienated young men who like you're saying are finding out that there is no script for this and that they feel unmoored

by like what they is traditionally expected of men. They can't live up to it. And they don't know what the rules are for men and women. And what Jordan Peterson offers is a kind of like what he's selling as a kind of return to traditional, you know, those rules and gender norms. He's like he is the dad figure. And never shitting. Yeah.

And also literally making your colon into a concrete mixer, eating only beef and pond water or whatever. But you do say that like for the most, you know, wretched and self-loathing of these people, if they turn to Jordan Peterson and take him seriously like actually like some of the advice would actually be good for them to hear from someone like him because they'd be inclined to take it, like clean your room, improve yourself, you know, do something with your life. Wash your balls.

Yeah. Yes, that's right. Like I don't call, I don't call him daddy just as a joke. Like I call him daddy because he's daddy, like that's the function that he serves. And I think that, you know, some of what he's saying is quite useful to the demographic that he's speaking to. But of course it's mixed up together with all this reactionary, you know, nonsense with this weird, obsessive hostility to trans people, these kind of backward, misogynistic, pre-feminist

ideas about women and gender with, you know, all this like Jungian psychoanalysis, which I don't know how to explain the popularity of that except that it's like astrology for straight people. Yeah. And like, I think that, yeah, I mean, I never expected to do a whole video on Jordan Peterson. I started listening to him because I was going to do a video about postmodernism and like the way that functions as a buzzword in our discourse. But I started listening to him and I just got like captivated.

I was like, how is this person so popular because he's like giving these long lectures about like the Bible and about like Carl's movies and like, it's weird that this is the guy. Like, but yeah, he's a fascinating figure in all of this. I mean, he is like, he really does embody for me like male hysteria. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I can see that. Yeah. Like a Victorian fainting house lady. Yeah. Like I just did this kind of like quavering, mulling, sort of like always on the, literally on the verge of tears at any given moment. And anger, the wallpaper in this room is causing me to feel a deep sense of doom. I think the weirdness of him is part of the appeal because you hear this guy talk and

it's a lot of, you know, nonsense and that weird quavering voice and you think, oh, he's probably a prophet, right? What other job would he have? Well, I mean, something impressive about like this display of intellectualism, I think, right? And he's, by the fact that he is invoking all these arcane references does give the whole thing an air of like, of, yeah, as you say, like sort of the oracular or the, the intellectual.

And he's telling them, he's, he's giving them sort of the same worldview as sort of the incel, the realization of feminism having disrupted fatally their chances. But he does not black pill them. He gives them not just like maybe a political way forward, but a personal checklist of behaviors of self-improvement and, and that might, you know, hold out the hope of them actually doing better in their lives, which that's the one thing that had been sort of missing. And that's, I think, one of the big reasons that he blew up because he was the first guy to sort of add a practical agenda, even though it's very banal and most, most people should

understand it intuitively, but it's shit like a pet every cat you see, clean your room. I don't know. Look someone in the eye when you're shaking hands with them. It's a fucking listicle you'll see on Reddit, right? But before this, it's, they had just gotten, you know, Jews and feminists or whatever have destroyed your ability to, to gain a mate and, you know, your face is your destiny. I mean, that's, that's only going to have, that's, some people are going to just embrace that and become nihilistic and get that kind of Thanatoptic enjoyment out of that.

A lot of people are going to want an, an and there. And he was kind of the first guy to give them an and, and here's what you could do about it. And that I think is one of the big reasons that he just, he just exploded in popularity. There's something very potent about this mix of self-help and, you know, reactionary politics. And the self-help stuff, it probably takes people in first, I would imagine. And, but the reactionary stuff is often like stuff that comes along with the kind of thinking patterns of people in his demographic of disillusioned young men.

It's the stuff that they're sort of maybe thinking already. And then he just gives it the like intellectual sort of, he like, he gives like a degree to this way of thinking, you know, and makes it sort of academic or his official sounding. As weird as he is, and I think Virgil is right, I think his weirdness is part of the appeal as god-awfully boring as it is to hear him drone on about like, you know, Pinocchio and chaos, Solonichin or something, and yeah, chaos dragons. I kind of get it. Like I, I can, I understand the appeal in a certain way.

The figure- You can see it's nothing new is the thing. The figure- It's repackaged, it's got a package, it's got a veneer of, of intellectualism to it that makes them feel like geniuses for, for understanding. And the Jungian shit, I mean, yeah, it's just repackaged Joseph Campbell, a lot of it. But that guy was huge, especially in the 70s, because that sort of pocket hermeneutic to carry around with you to decode all the symbols.

I mean, Marxism has that appeal too. It makes you feel like a genius. It makes you feel like you have a superpower that you now know things that nobody else understands. I feel like that's a good entry to something we talked about earlier in this conversation that I know a lot of people listening to this are curious about. And it's exactly why leftist content is not so popular on YouTube when compared to guys like Peterson, the alt-right and the Nazis and shit, when you can see, as Matt observes

the, the, the Marxist hermeneutic can explain quite a lot of things to an audience that's by and large, young and confused and, and not really educated in the way things are. Yeah, I think it's a very insightful idea that's thought that what something like the kind of like archetypal concepts, like part of what's appealing, appealing about those ideas is that it does give you this like sort of, you know, this key, this like skeleton key to decrypting the world around you. And I agree that Marxism has the same exact appeal. Marx has always been very popular with like college student, college students for the

same reason. Like it's a way of looking at the world that makes, oh, everything snaps into focus and you can understand the hidden workings behind the appearance of things. Like I said, I introduced like Jordan Peterson as a figure that it's, that's deeply weird and you know, a bizarre product of the moment we're living in. And on some level, I do understand his appeal, despite how boring he is. The other figure that I want to talk about is someone who, again, we've discussed at length on this show is incredibly popular and I genuinely have no fucking clue why.

And that is young Ben Shapino. What the fuck, like he just seems to be in every way the least appealing personality on the planet. What do you think it counts for his unbelievable popularity? It's fascinating, isn't it, because Peterson, I get it, because Peterson is like, Peterson is legitimately a daddy and like, I get why people like that. Like he's, he's very, he's, there's something soothing about his way of speaking. He's reassuring.

He's authoritative. He's masculine. And like, I can totally, I can totally see going for that. But Shapiro, yeah, what is the deal with this little whiny nerd? Like, why is this guy so, such like a campus legend, like it's bizarre. He, because he doesn't care about your feelings, he only cares about facts. And that's the thing. He is just to these guys, this pure avatar of unbridled, un cushioned, no fancy packaging,

pure straight facts and logic, just the, just a pure adrenaline spike of reason into your brain. And the fact that he's such a little twerp is, is sort of makes it more authentic because he doesn't have to have any kind of smooth presentation or a voice that a human could listen to for more than five minutes, because what he has instead is the goddamn facts and the logic on his side. Well, anyone can present themselves as the fact friend, but he is though. Well, he is, but I mean, I really think it's, it's he, it's one part he found himself in the right place at the right time because he used to be a sea list, you know, conservative

blogger guy. And so he had like that kind of institutional support in the established right wing. But then he started going after the SJWs and the campus libs and that kind of bullshit. And that, I think, I think that's what earned him a lot of followers is just sort of having the same antagonist that his fans had. What I've noticed about Shapiro and his fans is like, they look at, again, this utterly mulling dork who is like, again, has one of the least attractive personalities I've ever encountered in a human being.

They like his fans look at him as like their heroic like fighter and that like, they look at him as someone who's cool. Like you see like the Ben Shapiro thug life Ben Shapiro, you're gangster, like it's bizarre. Like they look at him as an aspirational figure, which is so weird to me. I think it's actually very fascinating that so many careers have been made this decade by people antagonizing campus activists like it really, you know, Milo Yiannopoulos, Ben Shapiro, Jordan Pearson, the Rubin report, like any not, you know, Rogan, Steven Crowder, any number of these people like basically made their whole career off of the like the SJWs

are like someone needs to stop them, you know. And I think that, you know, what this has to do with is the psychology of sort of defensiveness in the face of moralizing. So there's one of the greatest YouTube video essay, leftist video essays on YouTube is by the channel Innuendo Studios, it's called Why Are You So Angry and it's about Gamergate. It's an old video at this point, but it's a wonderful series that discusses basically the reception of Anita Sarkisian on the internet and compares it to, for instance, a vegan at a barbecue or like, you know, someone who doesn't drink alcohol at a party.

And that how the way that that kind of abstinence, even when you're not judging other people is interpreted as a condemnation of a whole way of life. And that is, you know, you know, received with intense hostility. I think that, you know, a lot of people sort of resent being, you know, this is the whole opposite of a political correctness thing, right? Yeah. Like for instance, like take like trans issues, that's become kind of the big centerpiece of a lot of this stuff.

And a lot of it is that like most people do not understand trans people, they don't know any trans people. It seems really weird to them and they feel like, you know, for instance, these norms regarding pronouns, which they have no experience using, like they feel that this whole thing is being this, this, this, you know, strange queer framework is being thrust upon them. And they resent not being able to ask the questions they want to ask. And they, they resent feel being feel like they're not allowed to say what they think in order to protect someone else's feelings.

So what Shapira does is he comes along and says, actually, no, I refuse to be polite. I refuse to abide by the usual norms of, of respect and humanity and civility. And instead I'm going to insist on just the facts, which means basically, no, I will not meet you halfway. This is not a conversation. This is not negotiation. This is in fact me setting the terms. And that's really what he's doing, right?

Like it's, you know, he says like, Oh, like, why won't these like crazy trans activists have a conversation with me? But like, he doesn't actually want that. Like if you look at the way he engages when he does occasionally talk to someone like that, like his whole strategy is to basically attempt to trigger them in provocal response. So, you know, it's, it's slight of hand, but it's effective in that it sort of captures something of the like, the private feelings that a lot of people have. These are this resentment of being made to go along with this thing they don't get.

Yeah. It's also, there's also a Schadenfreude aspect to it, right? Because every Ben Shapiro video you see is like Ben Shapiro shuts down campus SJW or Ben Shapiro obliterates Carney, who tells him he's too short to ride the roller coaster. And that's, and there's, there's this kind of stock figure throughout media that's someone on their high horse, a moralizer who gets their comeuppance, who gets publicly humiliated. And I think that's what the people who are, who, who resent the SJW user, the resent being told to, to, you know, have a modicum of respect for their fellow man, that's what they want

to see. Yes. There's definitely a kind of bloodthirstiness about this, right? Like they want to see these people brought down. And I agree that, that this idea of like, that this is, it's a repeated like media trope of this moralizer who's shown to be a hypocrite or a liar or something. And I'm actually, yeah, okay, I can give this away. I'm working right now on a video about climate change.

And I've been thinking a lot about Al Gore and the way that he was given that kind of treatment by the media, sort of, you know, whether it's Man Bear Pig in South Park or whether it's just his, you know, all the articles, you know, pointing, you know, about his, the think pieces about his private jets or his house or like this man who's a hypocrite, this man is, you know, you know, he claimed to invent the internet. They said, even though he didn't like, like they really like trash this guy for basically just telling us what the science in fact does say. And there's, you know, but, but, but what he was saying was, as he said, it was so inconvenient

that there was this, like, he was intensely resented for having the audacity to say this. Like, and I think there's something quite similar going on right now with like these campus activists, they're annoying by their demanding that we change our lives, right? And there's an intense resentment for anyone who says you're doing things wrong. Like no one wants to hear that. And they want to see the people who dare be so uppity as to speak out. They want to see those people brought down. And that is Ben Shapiro's brand.

You know, thinking about, you know, Ben Shapiro and really like our entire conversation about like this extremely online subculture and the politics that it breeds. But Shapiro, like in particular, like when I think of his popularity, I think what he represents is like at this current moment now with Trump as president. And of course, Shapiro will claim that he's a hundred percent anti-Trump or he doesn't support blah, blah, blah. Obviously, we don't buy that bullshit. But I think what he represents is like the all the uncool kids who, you know, and growing

up and in their lives have been ostracized or, you know, bullied or made to feel less than for both good and not good reasons by people who are cool by what was considered like the dominant form of, you know, youth culture that they felt alienated from like the briefcase kids, the bow tie kids, the weirdos. Ben Shapiro wrote a book about how proud he was to be a virgin until he got married. And I think in him, they see an opportunity, like he is cool now. Like the uncool kids are cool. And it's this weird kind of like revenge of the nerds dichotomy going on, like revenge

of the nerds feeling with it, where it's like they think that now with Trump in the way that they feel sort of liberated in a way, they're like, haha, like, you know, now the shoe's on the other foot, like the uncool kids are going to get their revenge against all like, you know, the moralizing and the, the pretentious and the scenes and hipsters or whatever that we felt left out of that. And like now we're going to get our, you know, just desserts. Yes. And that resonates with like Paul Joseph Watson's slogan of conservatism is the new punk rock,

right? A very similar feeling. Yeah. Breaking you on the wheel of logic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

And it's a, but it's very respectable and very like conservative, conservative in the old way. But as you say, like bow tie briefcase conservatism, I can, you know, you see these people walking around at elite universities, like they're there, they're not cool, but they, you know, they follow Ben Shapiro. It's not at all like the filth of incel forums though, it's sort of, these are very different takes on the issue. To sort of like, to wrap everything up, like in talking, like I said, like, let's just

take for granted that the internet is just one giant honeypot for the like lonely introverted and potentially alienated and miserable, but like not everyone who is exposed to the internet or any of this shit becomes alt-right or, you know, blackpilled or, you know, incel or whatever. If there was a way to like deprogram someone out of one of these fucking cults, like how, what would that look like or like, how would you begin to like try to bring someone back from the brink of this level of nihilism, hatred of humanity and really hatred of themselves? Like, how do you begin doing that?

So I think that when it comes to like reaching out to specific people, if someone is already really deep into that, I don't deal, I don't try, I don't want to put myself through that. I think it can be worth reaching out to some people who are sort of starting to get into it. It's much easier, I think, to prevent them to cure. So, but I do think that some of what I do with my YouTube channel is try to initiate the process of getting people out. Which for me, I mean, like I said, it's just so difficult and like, especially if you belong

to like a maligned marginalized group, you know, it's kind of traumatic to have to be engaging with people like that directly. But what I try to do when I'm making videos is I imagine how I'm going to be viewed by these people and I imagine these people viewing my videos and try to imagine their thoughts as I'm doing it. And one thing I do try to do is to kind of keep a door open to them. So I think that, you know, even if a lot of people, these people are racists, misogynists, transphobic, whatever, like, and on some of them, like, do they deserve to be braided

for that? Sure, they deserve it. But like, that's not going to help, is it? And so I'm very careful in my videos not to be too sermonizing to, I guess, I try not to adopt too self superior in attitude because I think that that triggers that defense reaction. But I, you know, my video is like, I make a point with the fact that I regard myself as trash and like, I'm just kind of throwing ideas out there. And I try to be sort of open and inviting in a sense, you know, even if I am making

sarcastic comments about Ben Shapiro, I don't say like everyone who follows this guy is a transphobic asshole, like fuck all of you, like, I don't do that, I don't say that because that's not what, you know, I don't, that doesn't help. What I, what I say instead is like, look, okay, let's take Ben Shapiro's terms. I'll grant, you know, hello, Ben Shapiro fans. Let's say everything he says, let's, let's say, okay, fine, no feelings. My feelings don't count for all. Let's have an argument about, you know, let's see how the argument goes.

If I don't, if I'm not allowed to say what my feelings are, and then like try to show how even if you don't take my feelings into consideration, actually it makes pretty good sense to call me by my pronouns, by, you know, she or her pronouns even, you know, and it's not like purely a matter of like, I'm not just appealing to like, how dare you, like, how dare you offend me, you know, because that, you know, they don't want that. But I think that showing them that there's like, there's good reasons for the things that I'm suggesting, you know, this would not work, by the way, in an actual debate with Ben Shapiro, it's a, it's a literary construction in a sense, right?

It's an imaginary debate that you draw up because in person, Ben Shapiro has ways of dealing with this because in person, what he will do in a debate with a trans person, for instance, is he will just, if they're not going along with everything he says, he'll start throwing out jobs in an attempt to get them to react emotively or treat or like, you know, triggered so-called way. And then he can be like, you know, up just bring your feelings into it again, you know? And so, but, but in a pre-composed video essay, you can escape that. There's no risk of that, you know, because you are the one making up the whole framing

the whole issue. And that, you know, as a piece of media can be consumed by someone and that sort of opens things up to them, I think, in a way that other approaches might not. Yes. Like watching your videos where you do completely skewer these loathsome ideologies and points of view and personalities, but in, again, in such stark contrast to the people who you're responding to, who are unbearably self-regarding, cloying and, yeah, like hectoring in their presentation of themselves and what they believe in, again, I think just a good place to start

and what comes across immediately in your videos is a sense of humor and actually a kind of like a good-natured playfulness even with these genuinely loathsome people and ideologies. And I think it's really effective in the work you do. Thank you. Yeah, that is the goal. And what you said, I agree, like sometimes I guess the way I say this, it sounds like I'm going along with the right-wing notion that, oh, it's just leftists who are for

some reason these like preachy, whiny, sermonizing, supercilious people. Well, no, of course not. Like, of course, like Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro are, as you said, unbearably self-satisfied and superior and hectoring and aggressive and, you know, what their goal basically is to destroy SJWs, like, or whatever, whereas in response to that, you would be fully justified in being just as belligerent in return and just as preachy and superior in return, but I don't do that. Instead, what I do is, you know, as you say, adopt a playful, almost like sometimes like

submissive or like seductive, I guess, persona, which I think is like, in a way, it can be disarming. I don't know that there's always the right approach to take, but it seems to work in this particular context. And I also just find it very funny, like it amuses me as I'm working on the video. And I think that kind of comes across to the audience. It makes my videos, it makes people want to watch them, you know, even if they don't agree with me.

There's something there, too, that's interesting to watch. Well, once again, I think the best weapon that the other side completely lacks is any kind of sense of humor whatsoever. They are among the most humorous people. Take themselves very seriously. Yeah. They're incredibly self-serious, and that right there is always the weak point to attack if you're looking to do this.

Yeah, it's odd because, like, SJW is so called to have this reputation as being like the most self-serious, unselfconscious whiners or whatever, but Jordan Peterson frames himself often as some kind of borderline messiah figure, like he's saving the world from postmodern neo-Marxism or what, like, who could possibly be more unselfconscious or un, you know, apparently has no sense of humor whatsoever about the silliness of what he's doing. Well, Natalie, when Contra points, I want to thank you so much for coming by and talking to us about this. I'm glad somebody is out there forming the beginnings of what perhaps may one day be

like a massive deprogramming effort to rescue people from the Internet. Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having me. This was a lot of fun. I'm so happy to be here. Like I said, if you haven't seen her stuff already, check out Contra points on YouTube. Once again, Natalie Nguyen, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you.

Thanks. Thanks. Bye. Bye. And that's it for us this week. Cheers, everybody. Thank you.