Chapo Trap House - MM16 - City Frights: Wolfen, Candyman, and the Urban Wilderness

Episode Date: October 31, 2024

[Note: these Movie Mindset Horrortober Season 1 episodes were already unlocked for free this year over on the Patreon feed, just adding them to the public feed to make them more widely available. To get every Movie Mindset episode, subscribe at patreon.com/chapotraphouse.] In this final episode of this year’s Ghoulvie Screamset, Will & Hesse take a look at Michael Wadleigh’s “Wolfen” (1981) and Bernard Rose’s “Candyman” (1992). Two films taking advantage of real urban environments the horrors of city life, from the intrusion of primordial natural evil in Wolfen, to manifesting the everyday horror of urban poverty in Candyman. Thanks for listening to our second outing of Movie Mindset! Will & Hesse will be back next year with a full season 2 of the series. Let us know if there's anything you're dying for us to cover, and stay watchin’ everybody.

Let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby to get ourselves a treat. Welcome back, mindsetters. Welcome back to the fifth and final episode of GULVY Screamset Horrortober coming to you in November. Today, we are going to be talking about life in the big shitty or rather two horror films that ponder that ponder urban life and the the service within. So what's your favorite thing about living in the big city? I love that you know it's every day it's the big apple one minute takes one second and there are people yelling at each other, screaming at each other. I

like that there's no wolves running around. I like that there's definitely no candy men. Just two things I love. My favorite thing about New York City, number one, the Yankees. Number two, the Mets. Number three, the wolves. The wolves, yes Wolfs. The Wolfs, yes. We are talking to my actually my least favorite thing about the city of Chicago. Number one, the Bears. Number two, the Bulls. Number three, the fucking Candymen.

All the candy. The bees, the bees. Listener on today, on episode five of a Gull V Scream set, we are talking about On today, on episode five of a Cool V Scream set, we are talking about 1981's Wolfin, directed by Michael Wadley, and then 1992's Candyman, directed by Bernard Rose. Two films that, like I said, deal with some of the stressors of living in an urban environment. The promise of the big city is that every day we wake again anew. That we can move here, we can live here, we can become new people and we can transcend the weight of the past. And what these movies suggest is that no, there

is a wolf and a man with a hook on his hand around nearly every corner and that the past is never really gone even in the gigantic technological industrial metropoles of America. Yes, you can't hide. So, to begin with, Wolfen from 1981, directed by Michael Wadley. 5, 4, three, four, five. Orion Pictures presents

Wolfen. For centuries, they have been hiding in the rubble of your cities. The concealed threat. The invisible terror. Kreiaz! You scared me! They can sense the rhythm of your blood. Hear clouds pass overhead.

See where you are blind. A force so deadly, it will tear the screen from your throat. Get out of there! What do you think it was? You were being lured. We were being separated. By what? The carnivore. You got yourself some kind of meat eater. What is it? It's wolf. The carnivore. You got yourself some kind of meat eater. Meat eater, meat eater, meat eater.

What is it? It's wolf. They're all animals. They might be gods. In their eyes, you are the savage. Wolfman. Uh, the first, okay, here's, here's where I want to begin with Wolfman and why I chose it because of two things. One, all of the absolutely real New York City locations.

You've got, you've got the battery. You've got the Manhattan Bridge You've got the Central Park. You've got you've got Wall Street You've got the Brooklyn Bridge and best of all you have parts of the South Bronx Filmed in 1980 that looked like Dresden after World War two. Yeah, it's shocking Some major urban renewal going on in this movie Shocking some major urban renewal going on in this movie But my number two thing I'm choosing woven for the real New York City locations and all of the real actual Wolves put in New York City locations. Okay, let's roam about free the wolves

At points in this movie the wolves I was like that this wolf is scarier than any monster As that that is what I love so much about this movie because like we you know We've talked a lot about this show about practical effects gore and various frights and spooks But to me there is simply no substitute for a real I don't know about a hundred pound dog Scrawling at you and actually I shouldn't disrespect the wolf in by calling them dogs They are all real wolves used in this movie And I guess I I want to begin with the most amazing facts I learned about wolf in in preparing for this episode and that is

In the scenes where the wolves are running about Wall Street and down various Street like there There's a couple scenes where they use real wolves in New York City, and even are like a real wolf pack. During the filming of these scenes, the NYPD had a ring of police snipers on rooftops as an insurance policy should any of the wolf actors decide to freelance. Oh my God, that's so cool. Now, the wolves could have probably outsmarted them if they were wolfins because they're a lot smarter than people. I don't know if you knew that. Cops love shooting dogs but shooting as this movie shows shooting

wolfin is a little bit more difficult than shooting the average perps house pet. Yeah. And it's a lesson our lovable drunken schlubby detective Albert Finney learns throughout this movie. A classic New York guy. You could tell just by the way he talks. Born and raised in New York City. A couple of things about Wolfen. I say Wolfen is probably the third in the triptych of major werewolf movies made in the 80s. I'm sort of, I'm interested in it

because like the werewolf explosion that took place in American horror movies in the 1980s and like the other two most prominent, I'm thinking of John Landis's in American Werewolf in London and Joe Dante's The Howling. And I always sort of interpret the werewolf in 80s movies and particularly in American Werewolf

in London as being sort of a an unconscious expression of the Reagan the the ascendance of the Reagan 80s and the sort of the unleashing of the like predatory Instincts of capitalism and and an American horniness on the world. Yes However in wolf in The wolves and the the wolf and the wolf spirits in this movie represent something very interesting and different. And that's why I wanted to talk about this. And by way of talking about it, I want to mention the director of this movie, Michael

Wadley. Now, kind of similar to our last episode, Michael Wadley is a guy whose IMDB credits are pretty threadbare. I think this is the only feature film he ever made. But however, interestingly, his other major IMDB credit is that he did the Woodstock documentary. Yes, he shot it, right? Yes, he shot the... He was originally... He's a documentary filmmaker and it's probably his most famous work is Woodstock, the documentary about the three days of peace, music, and love. What I find so interesting about his involvement in

that and then like really the meaning of this movie is that in this movie like I think like it really deals with the kind of end of the 60s and 70s counterculture and the kind of backwash of radical movements and the yes and the slide into like the Reagan 80s but like what the wolves represent in this movie are something very different than our predatory instincts, shall we say. Yes. So the movie, and one more thing,

the director of photography on Wolfen is Jerry Fisher, who was the same DP on Exorcist III. Yes. So it's another crossover with the mindset. And I think you can really tell, Hesse, you remember like the early scenes in Exorcist 3 of like the streets of Georgetown and how like sort of really like ambiently dreadful it all is? Yes. I think he really brings that same eye to bear on New York City in this movie. It has the same spooky gravitas kind of when, you know, when especially when

we're looking through the wolves eyes with the crazy predator. Yes. Well, yes, Wolfen is also well known for its idea. The first movement to use in the first movie to use in-camera thermographic effects that create wolf vision that we later see used to create effect in John McTierney's Predator. But you know, this is really kind of like this movie influenced Predator. And another movie that this movie is influenced is, did you notice that the score in this movie composed by James Horner? Did you notice that it's eerily similar, and some might say exactly similar, to the score he did

but eight years later for James Cameron's Aliens? Oh my god, I didn't even pick up on that. That's so good. Watch this movie again and then think about the tank assault scene in Aliens and like, James Horner, I mean, wow, good racket if you can get it just doubling down on film scores. No, but like, so like, this movie is about like, yeah, like, the return of these apex predators to an urban environment and the meeting of like, the nations older than even the First Nations of this country. Yeah, coming like, sort of melding into our biggest, wealthiest technological metropolis in New York City, and melding into our biggest wealthiest technological metropolis in New York City and melding and also coming face to face with the forces of

Urban renewal and gentrification. Yes as this movie begins We see the Batman's parents getting killed We see we see the van der Veer Husband and wife of you know rich coke addicts real estate developers in New York City Get butchered by an unseen force in Battery Park. Yes. As one thing I love about the predator vision and the sort of wolfing effects in this movie

is that unlike regular wolves and dogs, when these wolves hit you, your head or hand just flies straight off. Oh, they cut hands off like nobody's business. Towards the end of the movie, when the guy's reaching for his gun, and it happens again, that a wolf literally just clean cuts his hand off with his mouth.

I'm just like, fuck yeah. It's like a signature move for them. So yeah, the movie opens with a grisly triple murder in Battery Park of this guy, Van Der Veer, his wife, and their bodyguard. And he's like a hugeisly triple murder in Battery Park of like, yeah, this guy, Vanderveer, his wife and their bodyguard. And he's like a huge real estate developer in New York City. And then, of course, we have Albert Finney, our lovable, harassable, drunken Irish detective.

Our marathon man, if you will, as he's training for a marathon with you can't quite see it yet, but his hair is what I could only describe in this movie as lunch lady hair. At several points he looks like a lunch lady. But he- How about some more cream corn? He arrives on the scene of this murder and in full marathon clothes and seems to really zero in on the fact that the bodyguard, the Haitian bodyguard has a voodoo ring with a

pentagram and a goat's head on it. And that seems to be like his, decide his entire angle of investigation for this. And as soon as he drops his voodoo clue, like his sort of harried boss says, voodoo? There's 80s goddamn sex on Manhattan alone. And so once again, it's kind of similar to Halloween III. This movie is sort of like connecting the threads from like old, darker threads from the older mythologies

of the past and bringing them into a very modern context. And another way this movie establishes very early on the hand of the past reaching into the present is that these three murders take place at a recreation of the first windmill ever built in New York, right on the battery by, you know, Dutch colonists. Yes. There's a real anti-Dutch undertone to this. It's kind of like revenge on the Dutch from, you know, native just wolf spirits that have been here for centuries and millennia. And then, of course, we see the introduction of the other main character, or like the sort of sidekick character in this movie, the medical examiner slash city coroner played by the

great Gregory Hines. Yes, Greg Hines. I love him as like the cool medical examiner. Get this guy on Law and Order. He's got one of the dangly earrings. Unfortunately he doesn't dance in this movie I know I was like what a waste to not give him a dance At least give him like some kind of tap dance around like a wolf or something

I wanted to see him try to like dance escape the wolf when it kills Exactly. Just do a little leap do some tabs. I mean Gregory Hines though is is so funny And for me, like I told you, I love all the New York City details in this movie. And for me, like when I first saw this movie, the scene that really like opened it up for me is how much time they spend in like, what I assume is a real or very realistic recreation

of the city morgue. And just like all the focus on the kind of like the bureaucracy of like the bureaucracy of dealing with like dead bodies in New York City. And it's just like all these little details, like they're trying to move a body and like the rigor has like stuck the finger like holding on to the side of this slab and they have to like break the finger and pull it off. There's just like, you know, corpses in various stages of autopsy, there are like genitals exposed everywhere. And then Finney and Hines, of know, corpses in various stages of autopsy, there are like genitals

exposed everywhere. And then Finney and Hines, of course, like they just have like, I just love, you know, like that realistic, totally nonplus attitude to just display of death everywhere. Finney in his, because he's still ostensibly training for a marathon at some point in the nondescript future, He's carb-loading like crazy. So he's eating cookies in the morgue. He's always eating treats and snacks. And even when they're sawing into the bodies on the autopsy table, blood's going everywhere, he's just eating these little cookies out of a paper bag.

He's like me for real. Yeah, I mean like I training for a marathon and then in several scenes of this movie like just drinking Cutty sark straight out of the bottle and smoking a dog turd size cigar Wolf turd size cigar Like so like yeah the NYPD is on case, but like I think another interesting aspect of this movie is that like the first suspect that they have in these wolf murders is that they like they suspect terrorism. Yeah, they suspect terrorism because like Mr. Van der Veer's niece is in some kind of like Simba Nia's limit, Liberation Army, Patty

Hearst style, terror cell. She's full Patty Hearst and basically Vanderveer's last name might as well be Chiquita Banana with the things they're explaining him doing. Like at the beginning, it's like, oh, this is not really a, as Albert Finney, so Riley puts it, oh, friend of the third world I see. Yeah, he's opened up a lot of new condos in what used to be villages in El Salvador, Nicaragua. Yes.

So yeah, and then like the other interesting thing like in the way this movie like deals with, like I said, the backwash of 60s radicalism, which at this point, they weren't getting the new cool world that they thought they were. You either sell out and become a businessman. There's a great scene in this where Albert Finney is talking about radical Native American activists and he's just like, yeah, it might be one of the few radicals left that aren't

making money selling Levi's now. But like in it like in this backwash of like 60s radicalism turned into kind of Biter Meinhoff style terrorism. There's a there's a German terrorist cell in New York City in this movie called Goddardammerung, which I thought is great. But the movie, the movie also introduces like, I guess like this sort of private corporation that keeps track on terrorist groups. It's sort of like a private CIA that has a lie detector room that they use. It's strange because

the way that it detects heat and stuff is similar to the wolf vision. Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah. There are some strange parallels there, but they basically decipher that the Patty Hearst is lying and she did not do anything to her uncle. She's trying to claim credit for killing her uncle. It's like the scene in Asayas' Carlos the Jackal where they try to blow up an Israeli plane but they accidentally blow up a Lebanese plane and then they try to call it in they're like

Oh someone else already took credit for that Yeah, and like I it's just like they you know It's sort of counter to it's very it's repression in that like in this movie Counterterrorism has become like a privatized big business and they're like assisting the shlubby New York cops who don't know shit about the world or terrorism or anything assisting the shlubby New York cops who don't know shit about the world or terrorism or anything. But they introduced a character played by Diane Venora who is this kind of like, I don't know, like CIA consultant. Criminologist kind of.

Yeah, she's a criminologist and there's a great scene with, this is her first film appearance actually and you'll probably remember her from Al Pacino's wife from Heat and Russell Crowe's wife from the insider. So she's a She's a man lady Diane. Yes. She's a man lady Yeah And like he said he's eating he's getting a hot dog on the street and he's just like What can you tell me about leftist terrorist groups in mutilation? And then she just rattles off this list of like well the Shining Path likes to cut off people's dicks and put them in their mouth

You know The new Red Front has been known to cut toes off yeah but but yeah like they're stoked by this murder until the until like It shifts its focus from you know Wall Street in the downtown set to, as I said, the economically, socially, and architecturally blighted South Bronx of 1980. Yes. And, Hess, I was looking to truly underscore for the audience here, they built this set of the burned down church on a real street corner that was already rubble, but pretty

much everything else in the South Bronx of this movie is just what it looked like. That's so crazy. It looks so apocalyptic and insane. It's just like dozens of square city blocks that are just like totally burned down husks. And then you see the wolf in vision and they take another victim. And this time, unlike the richest real estate developer in the city, it's like a destitute junkie and wino just like wandering the streets of the South Bronx. And like the first clue is that like a hair links both of these bodies. Yes. And this is the connection here.

And then of course we bring in Tom Noonan, another horror movie heavy, another man man. Yes. The beautiful Tom Noonan. Tom Noonan is the Central Park Zoo's wolf expert. And he's an expert in predator behavior. And once again, the past reasserting itself, a big part of it, he talks about how in the westward expansion

and settlement of this country, we nearly wiped out every wolf in existence that lived in this country. And there were millions of them at one point. And as this movie takes place, he says there's only a handful left in the Rockies. Yes. So yeah, for America to be civilized, we had to remove the other apex predators

on this continent so that Europeans could move in. Yes. And he is adamant, Tom Noonan is adamant that a wolf did not do these brutal killings, even though all signs kind of point to a wolf because he's like, wolves don't really attack, they don't kill people like that. Only people kill people like that. And he makes a huge point about it. And you know, he would bet his life on it, it would seem. I hope he doesn't mean an ironic end.

Yes. There's a horrible scene in this movie where Noonan is watching like a film reel of people shooting wolves from helicopters That's which is still done. And you know, I gotta say people I compared the earlier werewolf movies to like the American werewolf spirit of predation and bestial like our bestial like id I Think a better comparison is just feral hogs feral swine because like that really is what man is. Feral hogs kill way more people than wolves ever have and Tom Noonan is right wolves do not kill people in North America there is like absolutely zero recorded instances of wolves killing people but there are probably millions of

instances of people killing wolves. Yes. Once again, in both the movies we're talking about today, the monsters of both of these movies are thoroughly tragic and mostly, and Wolfman I would say entirely sympathetic, and in Candyman merely somewhat sympathetic. Yes. A little.

He's got a bit of a mean streak in him in Candyman. But like they say in this movie, towards the end, they tell Albert Finney, to them, we're the beasts. We're the monsters. We're uncivilized. Yeah. And the Noonan character is like, yeah, a predator did do this, homo sapien, the worst of the whole lot.

We are by far the worst predators on this planet and Like they can't possibly believe a dog is doing this They get their next suspect in The character played by Edward James almost who is fantastic in this movie Uh-huh. He's amazing. He plays like an ex-radical like like a radical Native American Activist who is like just get out of prison, but currently has a job working on the high steel. And this movie acknowledges a real phenomenon of like that many of the iron workers who

do like the high, high steel construction on bridges and skyscrapers in New York in the 70s and 80s were Native American and there's a great scene where Albert Finney literally walks up the Manhattan Bridge to like the top of one of the columns where it's sort of like the bulbs on top of it are and has this great scene with Edward James almost where he sort of questions him about like, so can you turn into a wolf? Yeah, it's so funny. Could you stop doing that? It's so funny that he's... He goes, I swim like a fish, I fuck like a rabbit. He's like, wolf? Sure. I could do that.

Edward James is almost very sexual in this film. And you do see, he does hang dong at one point. Oh, you see everything. You see everything. But I love that scene because It's just so funny that Albert Finney has locked in on This like maybe these guys are turning into walls. That's like I Mean, he's not super far. He's he's a little off, but he knew the guys to go talk to you about this which I guess is A point in his credit because like yeah, he put Edward James Olmos away. Yes.

So they have a little bit of a rapport here, which leads him to follow Edward James Olmos to like the bar that him and his friends hang out at. Yeah. And then like he follows them after they leave the bar and like the older friend just like gives him a tab and then he runs to C the like his like the older friend just like gives him a tab and then he runs to Coney Island gets completely naked and just like starts going not like he doesn't turn into a wolf but he does a very convincing wolf mode he goes wolf mode yeah he he like makes paw prints with his hands in the sand and howls at the moon and like attacks the

water with his mouth and fully naked the whole time. And then like he sort of knows Edward James, I'm sorry, he sort of knows that Albert Phinney is watching him too and then he just like sort of just like, hey, here I am. It's me, I'm naked. See, I told you I could turn into a wolf. He's like, it's all in the mind. And then meanwhile, Gregory Hines, Gregory Hines is developing his own theory on this because in one of the victims, in the first victim, their organs were missing, but in the second victim, his liver was still there. And he ascertains that it's because his liver was badly diseased and whatever was eating

him didn't want it. Yes. And Gregory Heinz starts to put together a theory where he starts looking at like vagrants and like various like sort of destitute and forgotten people from cities all over the country that are like showing up in morgues dead and partly eaten and he's like hey this happens to a lot of people every single year. I sort of fall through the cracks here. I know we get like dozens of bodies through this office every day. But he's like, I have a theory. He goes like, he's like, where are these people going? He's like, well, I know now is that people are eating them. So like, yeah, like as the movie goes on, like the wolves begin to kind of assert themselves into the lives of the people investigating this case. Like there's an intelligence at work here.

Like when Finney and Diane Venora travel to the South Bronx and they like they sort of they walk around this burned out church that's an incredible set and like they're trying to make trying to like connect the two bodies incredible set and like they're trying to make Trying to like connect the two bodies in cases and like you see them being watched by the the wolf vision by the predator vision and then like they they they They take a car home and then there's a great scene of like Through the predator vision of like a wolf crossing the bridge into manhattan. Yes through the top of the the like top spans kind of. It's just fucking, it's always tourists on that fucking Brooklyn Bridge pedestrian walkway.

Exactly. Clogging it up, making TikToks. But I also love like the, when they're in the burned out church and it shows the reverse shot of like the wolf eyes, peering down at them. It's like so shocking and scary. It's like, oh my God, that's actually like, damn, those aren't like special effects eyes. That's just like a fucking wolf. That's what's so fucking good about it. The way the light is caught in their eye,

like the first time you really see, you don't really see the wolf, but like it seemed like Diane Vanora, like here's something upstairs and she like tries to like walk up into this rickety attic and Albert Finney kind of like tackles her because he feels there's something wrong and they fall down the stairs. So right at the top, you can just see like a shadow move and you see the light reflected in these two ghostly eyes.

Yeah, these two like yellow, like gold eyes eyes just looking down. It's so scary. And when you first see the wolves in their full power, it really is shocking to see how big a wolf can be. Oh my God. As the scene where Finny is in front of Diane Van Oorra's house and he's in his car and it's raining and he's kind of half asleep. He's gonna have a sleep and Then he wakes up and he sees it like though in full like the full fucking like shadow outline of a wolf Like standing on top of a wall looking down at his car and has to in my notes for that scene

I wrote had to Google how big do wolves get? Because it's really shocking you forget like even among like when you think of a big dog, you think like, oh, like a wolf is a big dog. Yeah. Like, no, they're so much bigger than you think they are. They're huge. They're terrifying. They're like six feet long and they can weigh like over 100 pounds.

Like astonishingly cool animals. And then Tom Noonan, of course, there's a great scene with Tom Noonan where he He takes a little he takes a little scooter trip through Central Park that doesn't go so well for him He has some kind of premonition. This like wolf this animal sense where he's like the animals are calling me and then he goes to Central Park and he's like Here's like wolf noises and then he's like, oh, are calling me. And then he goes to Central Park and he's like, here's like wolf noises. And then he's like, oh, maybe I should not be here. And then he gets literally sniped off of his moped. Like a wolf.

It's incredible. So yeah, like there is an intelligence at work in like the targets that these wolves are hunting. Yes. And so after that, like, they know that they're coming from the South Bronx. They're like the wolves of the Bronx. And Albert Finney and Gregory Hines, there's a great scene where they go to like the burned

out church and they do a stakeout where they have like they have like AR 15 with like night vision scopes and they're both looking at each other like bitching at one another. Yeah the scopes and the scopes are so comically large it's like all you think of just these huge scopes. And of course then Heinz is killed by a wolf. Yes it's very sad. That's the first real wolf kill we see and it's just like once again animal attacks are some of the hardest things to ever do in a movie. And I think this movie had a really like uses a really creative uses a really creative effect of the predator vision to like,

that's what you see pouncing on people. It's the camera, not the wolf. Yes, because, you know, that's pretty hard to do. But animal attacks are just so hard to do. But yeah, animal attacks are just so hard to do in movies. It's hard to think of like, maybe Green Room is the one that I think that got it the best. It was one of the most horrifying scenes of all time. Yes. But also like, it's, you do see, it's an amazing like Jurassic Park type, Clever Girl style effect where Albert Finney goes

into the basement to kind of smoke these wolves out and go attack them where they live in the basement of this building. And it turns out it's just like a trap that the wolves were luring him away from Gregory Hines. And they just like, one Gregoryines is like talking to him and then you see behind him a wolf just like a peer out from like the yes the ceiling is like oh my god once again it's like talking about movie magic like I I don't know you can like kind of train a wolf but like how do they get how do they get them to snarl like that like how do they control them I

guess they got the real police snipers covering them. I really just have to stress like how totally otherworldly and terrifying the wolves in this movie look because they are just real wolves. Yes. No substitute. And then in my favorite scene in the movie is when like after his good friend Greg Hines has been killed, Finney goes, is like covered in blood and like shook.

He has the thousand yard stare. Yeah, and he's just like, look the only people who can like tell me any, who's talking any sense about this is Edward James Olmos and his friends, like the ex-Native American radicals, and he walks into their bar, and it's a real record skip moment, and everyone looks at him, because he's like the white cop entering this bar for Native American radicals. And he sits down with Edward James Olmos, and I love this scene,

because Edward James Olmos, he just spits facts at him. Yeah, he doesn't even need to say, Albert Finney doesn't say anything. Yeah, it's just like they're called a wolfen. They're like, yeah. So you heard of wolves, right? Well, these are a little bit different. They're called wolfen. Wolfen is a name that the Dutch settler gave to both the shapes that move in the forest at night, be they wolf or human. But like

the wolf and are essentially spirits. They're like they're like they're they're they're they're wolf spirits that in his words, went underground. Like as wolves are being exterminated, they went underground into the new wilderness of our cities. As he says, the slums, the graveyards of your fucking species. Yes. They might be gods. Yes. He says their world is older, more finished, more complete. And then and my favorite line in the whole movie, he goes, don't even think about believing any of this shit. It's the 20th century. We've got it all figured out. Don't even think about believing this shit. And I love like he's telling them

as Albert Finney is like, Yep, I absolutely believe this shit. Once you start believing it, there's no fucking turning back. Yeah. And again, like, this movie's focus on cities like and the urban wilderness is like this idea that the the wolf in they like they're killing like that sick whino in the Bronx is like that they're they're feeding off of like the discards of our civilization like the people for whom in our natural order don't fit in and they are sort of culling the herd of humanity to restore a kind of balance that like our society is incapable of doing because we discard the poor and leave them to die and like, you know, the South Bronx.

Yeah. And I love that also, as this is going on, there's right before it goes to that scene. There's like the private security firm is doing like a way another Waco Yes, the god or Demerung They're like so like yeah like as Albert Finney cracks the case and like learns the true the true and like ancient knowledge of the wolfen and their presence, their godlike presence among humanity, a humanity that in the 20th century doesn't want to know about shit like this, that is incapable of seeing

or even considering that such a thing could be possible, because we're the apex predator now, we have no competition. There's a phone in my Lexus, I don't need any of this. Yeah. Yes, in New York in the 80s, the cocaine was plentiful, the money was everywhere, buildings were going up, up, up. The South Bronx was being renovated. No one wants to hear about the Wolf Spirits. Yeah. Until it's too late.

You say, you say Barracuda, everyone says, huh, what? You say Wolf Spirit. We got a panic on our hands on the fourth of july Yeah Oh, and I love that like uh after they do after they do another wake-o to the goddard damarung terrorist house They're like case closed. We found a wolfskin among their We found a fursuit this must have been what they were killed of. They give that poor real estate developer to death. Yes. But then Finney goes to... What happens next? Oh, Finney is taking refuge in the...

The Vendor of your penthouse. Yes, in the penthouse. And he's realizing like, he's like mulling over everything that's happened. Then they come and tell him, hey, it's all over. We can all go downstairs now. It's going to be fine. And they leave and instantly they are surrounded by like 12 wolves. Yeah, it's Venora, Finney, and the guy who plays Finney's boss who's another great like New York City stereotype He's like, yeah And this scene is all filmed right on Wall Street, these are literally the wolves of Wall Street they're on the Wall Street Snarling yes, it's so good.

And then Finney is like, okay, he's like, just be calm. Just don't, whatever you do, don't run. And his boss just fucking bolts. And reaches for his gun, yeah. Goes for his gun. Wolf takes his hand clean off. Yes. And then he gets in his car, like, stump spurting blood. There's an amazing part in the car where he tries to close the door with his hand that's gone and he has to stop and check himself and he's like, oh fuck.

And in classic horror movie fashion, bleeding stump goes to try to start his car. Nope, Wolf in the backseat. Yes. Wolf is already in the car. And then takes his head. Once again, I don't know how they do that with their jaws. It's, you know, if I had a bone to pick with this movie, but you know what, I'm not arguing. They take his head clean off. And then a call back to the scene, like the very beginning of the movie with Gregory Hines, his character, where he's discussing the severed head of the Van der Weer wife he's like you know during the French Revolution they used to pick these up and like one out of every ten heads would still be breathing and looking at you when his boss's head gets

taken clean off he fucking like it's just like oh Bob like it's like opening its mouth on the nice cobblestone streets of Wall Street. It's so upsetting. It's so amazing though. And then they, Finny and the girl get back in rush to the elevator. And there's a great little gag where the elevator won't close and they eventually go up and like realize that the only way to win against the wolves because they're smarter, stronger, more powerful to just like seed the the South Bronx to them and be like, hey, look, we're not gonna, we won't mess with you. We won't tell anyone like, he's got like the, he's got the head wolf this amazing all white wolf yes just staring at him and snarling and he realizes like yeah this service weapon this isn't just

a regular dog I can't I can't just shoot this dog like I do regularly this is an adaption in a house during a slot raid so he like yeah he just like lower he like puts the gun down he drops the gun for the wolf and then and then goes beast mode on the kind of The the scale model of the condos that van der Veer was gonna build in the South Bronx Thus displacing the wolf pack from their hunting grounds and the beginning of the movie you see Like a demolition of some building that they're gonna they're gonna theyish so that they can build some new appalling condos. And then like the you see the predator vision and the whole reason that they attack and kill Vanderveer and his wife is that they're competing for hunting grounds with him. He's encroaching on their territory. He's taking away. By gentrifying the Bronx, he's taking away their access to the second dying

But yeah like so Finney is just like the the one white man who can make peace with the wolves by laying down his arms And being like we got you You know what? You know, it's 2023 the South Bronx is still fucked up not in my backyard. We've written that off. It's all yours wolves Just stay away from Yankee Stadium and the tourists. But yeah, like the cops, the cops come in and they're just like, uh, what the hell happened here? And then he's just like, terrorist, don't worry. The terrorist did this. Don't worry about it. And then they're like, good enough for me. Yeah. And the last shot is that he takes the, or one of the last shots is he takes the first

suit, which is just a wolf pelt. I mean, this puts it on top of the, on top of the like destroyed model of the condo is like the wolves have destroyed. It's a beautiful bit of visual, visual shorthand, visual symbolism. No, I mean, I'm like, you know, I'm like the last scene are sort of wolves like running under the Brooklyn Bridge and you can see the Manhattan skyline in the background. Like, and it's just like a voiceover about how like, you know, they're like, there are some gods

like that will never understand and like, you know, we like that there's that they're just still there and like I don't know I just I Love this movie because it's like the way it I love this movie for you know how it treats New York City of the 80s and how it like it's a metaphor for like a changing city and like I said like the ever present past that can never really be buried.

And like the, you know, I think utterly sympathetic portrayal of wolves. Like wolves don't kill people, wolfen do. So if you're thinking about building a new condominium in New York City, don't. Especially if you're Dutch, cause there's some bad blood between you and the wolfen. Honestly, this is an anti-Yimby movie.

Yes. And that's why I like it. I am a NIMBY through and through, god damn it. If there are any YIMBYs who listen to this show, please stop now. We're sending the wolf in after you. Yes. But just, once again, amazing, amazing wolves. And then the utterly charming Albert Finney, Gregory Hines and Tom Noonan.

With his lunch lady hair. And yeah, it's it's I'd never even heard of this movie. And I was like really amazed to that it was so amazing and like incredible. And I loved it. And I love the wolf version and swish vision where it's like, you know, creature view and it's like, swishing around on like a steady cam. I had not seen this movie until fairly recently. But I'll tell you, the first time I saw it, I was blown away that like I haven't ever seen this movie before because it's incredibly good. And like, in like, you know, if you like American werewolf in London or the howling like you've got to see wolf and even though they are not technically werewolves They are merely wolf and wolf spirits. So has it the first time I watched this movie. I watched it on my laptop

Attempting to sleep on some floor or the nose attempting to sleep on like what passes for a couch in some floor or, you know, attempting to sleep on like what passes for a couch in the Denver International Airport after I was stranded there overnight. That's, that's a place. If there are wolf in that place is severely haunted by them. No, no, I'm correct. The Denver International Airport and the massive underground bases underneath it and all the other weird shit in it was built to protect Colorado and the massive underground bases underneath it and all the other weird shit in it was built to protect Colorado and the international airspace from wolfing yes It was meant to trap and contain the wolfing but yeah if you're looking to watch a horror movie I recommend spending the night in the Denver International Airport

After you get stranded there because Joe Brandon tried to land his plane in Southern, California Yes No, I love all right because Joe Brandon tried to land his plane in Southern California. Yes. No, I love. All right. All right. Wolfman, let's take a quick break and we'll be back to talk Chicago. The second city. Have you ever heard of Candyman? And if you look in the mirror and you say his name five times in cities everywhere, they say his name five times. In cities everywhere,

Candyman? they whisper his name. Right? Candyman. It's just a story. Candyman? Candyman. Just a ghost story.

Candyman. story. Candyman. An entire community starts attributing the daily horrors of their lives to a mythical figure. The legend first appeared in 1890. He was attacked, mutilated, and burned to death. Poor Candyman. Helen, a woman died in there. Leave it.

Everyone knows he isn't real. That's modern oral folklore. Everyone. Except Helen Lyall. Where did that... It ain't safe around here. I don't scare too easy. I know about Ruthie Jean.

They ain't never gonna catch him. Who? Candyman. Helen... Who is that? I came for you. Do I know you? Now she is about to discover Tell him.

Get out! Get out! what's behind the mystery. You suck. What's behind the mystery? You suck. What's behind the legend? Listen, he's under the bed! And most terrifying of all, come with me. What's behind the mirror?

He's here. Candyman, you don't have to believe. Just beware. All right, we are back. All right, Hessa, before we get started on this one, I'd like you to join me in a little experiment here. Okay. Uh oh. Okay, we are both looking into our

computer screens and we're looking at ourselves in this video chat. It's a form of mirror. Okay, say it with me now. Candyman, candyman, candyman, candyman, candyman. I got you. Let's see how this next hour goes. Yeah, I see. That happens. I hope nothing bad happens. So Candyman from 1992 directed by Bernard Rose based on a short story by Clive Barker. So once again, you're back. We are back in the world of Gothic eroticism and this movie certainly does not disappoint.

But yeah, like it has it's based on a short story by Clive Barker, which dealt with the the poverty of his hometown in Liverpool. And Bernard Rose was fascinated by the like, you know, savage inequality of Chicago and decided to transpose the film there. And I guess like another interesting thing I'd like to split that both these movies are sort of urban horror stories I think both of these movies are also very are interesting works of like political consciousness in genre. Yeah, and offering like Let's shall we say a critiques embedded in the horror genre that could fairly be described as woke

Yes, this is a woke movie. I would say it's pretty woke described as woke. Yes, this is a woke movie. I would say it's pretty woke. I mean, it's it is. I mean, like literally Candyman is about a naive white academic who is punished mightily for her privilege and stupidity. I mean, like I know that like the candy the Candyman was

remade recently and yeah, all've all the coverage it was about Yeah, I haven't seen it either But like all the coverage about it was about how like how like new and cool and radical and woke it is and I was Like what the fuck like the original one was? The original one we make it they made it woker. What's going on here? I thought the first one was like a like, you know a beautiful but like savage indictment of like the conditions of poverty in this country and like a racist history. And I think all of those themes, I think, are beautifully captured in like the opening

credits sequence of this movie, which is gorgeous. Like first you see like a totally apocalyptic vision of Chicago being like consumed by bees It's sort of like the the Wu Tang video for triumph And then like the Chicago skyline and it's sort of like this cloud of bees and then we get the opening credits Which is a a bird's-eye view of Chicago that takes you from like the downtown parts of the like, you know, the Chicago River and like Gold Coast to like the south side and what it what it traces a like one of the

Chicago heads you chime in here on what sort of highway the movie like this helicopter shot that this sort of follows Let's call it the model the James L. Elway Memorial Highway, what are the Blues Brothers names? Brothers memorial high LL would blue is the L The highway they built to memorialize all the people killed in their rampage through Chicago Alright be alright, but and then we get this we get this haunting gothic Oregon score in this movie by Philip Glass. Yeah, that was the real jump scare when I watched it. Like for this episode, I was like, Philip fucking Glass did the music for this?

Holy shit. And the music, the score in this movie is, Tony Todd, who plays Candyman, said of this role and this movie, and like, much of this I think we should just talk about Tony Todd, because like, this is one of my favorite horror movie performances ever. Oh, easily.

And he said, oh this role, he said, I always wanted to do Phantom of the Opera. And I think that's such a good way of thinking about this movie. Like, Candyman really is a kind of modern retelling of Phantom of the Opera. And I think that's such a good way of thinking about this movie. Like Candyman really is a kind of modern retelling of Phantom of the Opera. And in his character, he has this, you know, this gothic tragic romantic, you know?

And like his line, be my victim. It's just like I said, like it's just, it's infused with this goth eroticism. But like, but in Bernard Rose's movie, I'd like he introduces, because it takes place in America in Chicago This other huge element of race into the movie like in addition to poverty. Yes, is it race more than class? I don't know. Let's figure it out after discussing Candyman But what I want to say about that that opening credit sequence is that just like this tracking this bird's-eye view tracking shot of the Elwood

Blues Memorial Highway as it takes you from like the downtown parts of Chicago into its benighted and impoverished neighborhoods. And I think it's so interesting because I always think of the power broker and Robert Moses and the ways in which he used highway construction as a form of like erecting physical barriers to segregate communities and like you know to create the the you know a cross-bronze highway construction as a form of erecting physical barriers to segregate communities. And to create the cross-Bronx Expressway or the BQE involved the raising of all kinds of middle-class, multiracial neighborhoods and the creation of these physical barriers

between the poor and black parts of the city and everywhere else. And I think this movie, right in the the beginning, is like really showing you that harsh dividing line that like is there and everyone notices, everyone sees it, everyone drives on it, but nobody thinks of it in that way. And like that's how I always thought about like, I always think of the power broker in the opening credits sequence of this movie. And then we get the, yeah, the apocalyptic vision of Chicago and then the great voiceover from Tony Todd.

They will say I shed innocent blood. What's blood if not for shedding? Yes, he's so every line from him in this movie. My personal favorite is when Virginia Madsen is like, I'm afraid. And he's like, of the pain or the dying and he's like, she says a both and he's like, oh, the pain I assure you will be exquisite. I just love that line. I mean, because it's Clyde Barker, like we see all the many parallels to Hellraiser

in this movie, like I said, in terms terms of its the kind of the beauty and the rapture of Candyman, the character, like the famous scene where the bees come out of his mouth, like there's something kind of like I said, there's a lushness and a beauty to it. And like I said, a kind of a very charged eroticism in his character and like in his sadism, like in like in his quest for victims and the shedding of innocent blood, there's a real rapture in it. And the movie is, I guess, like the process

of Virginia Madsen being both like terrorized by this, but also kind of transduced and hit, he's seduced by Candyman, yeah. So we talked about Virginia Madsen, like she's the main character of the movie. And she is a sociologist, of course, at the University of Illinois in Chicago. And like part of her graduate student thesis, she is writing about urban legends.

And she's like recording one of her subjects, who's telling her the urban legend of Candyman. And like we see a like a I guess like in the film the story being told. And it's like it's so interesting because like that in that retelling that Bernard Rose stages it is very much the classic white bread movie trope. White picket fences, you know a bad boy in a leather leather jacket cheerleader and home alone. Yeah. It's like, um, it's so good. He's coming over to get laid and like, they'll get your parents are away. His date goes up to the bathroom and says Candyman five times into the mirror. And then like the next thing he knows, there's just like blood seeping through the ceiling. Yes.

And she's been massacred and his hair turns white because he's so scared. He has been butchered. Yes, he's been butchered. Yeah, like they're both these like two white teenagers. It's like the lily white suburbs and like everywhere in America. And like, you know, she's you know, this is but this is just like an academic curiosity for you. And her I like that her friend, Bridget,

I believe her name is played by the same actress who plays Jodie Foster's friend in Silence of the Lambs who helps her with the Buffalo Bill case. Essentially the same character. I feel like that actress kind of got typecast after Silence of the Lambs. Yes. And then of course, we've got to talk about

Virginia Madsen's shithead husband played by a character actor I think supremely gifted in playing horrible assholes and douchebags the great Xander Berkeley who you might also remember as heat as the guy who fucks Diane Venora in use our postmodern Dead hell shit house watching my TV Watch my TV. You don't watch my TV. Zander Berkley is another grotesque portrait of an academic. And I love that Virginia Madsen was his grad student, but they make very clear in many scenes in this movie,

he is constantly courting the affection of the next crop of grad students in his urban legend class. Yes, I think the best way to describe him would be he's a drip. Yes. He's like a total, and it's like, so he's such like a piece of shit and Virginia Madsen, who obviously was his student once and now is his wife and then goes back to kind of, you know, goes back to his lecture and sees him eyeing a

young girl the same way that he eyed her. It's very, you know, wonder what's going to happen with that later in the movie. But you know, we hear we hear like like little little little snips of his his lecture and like I love his sort of yeah, like his his college academic take and he's like, we have to face the fact there are no alligators in the sewers these are the unconscious reflection of the fears of urban society and then like you know the way they all just eat this shit up and then Virginia Madsen's character is just like and she's working late and she's like oh one of the of course the uh the black cleaning ladies at the university

is just they're Oh, what are you working on? And she's just like, Oh, nothing, just some stuff about Candyman. And they're like, Oh, well, you know what, in the neighborhood I live in, he's killed like 15 people. And she's like, Oh, wow. Oh my God, I'm gonna have the best thesis ever. Yes. The like friend comes in and she's like tells this really horrifying story about how she knew a woman who one of her friends kept calling the police being like, someone's digging through my wall, someone's digging through my wall, and then killed her with a hook. And the police never showed up. And then she's like, wow, I can't wait to use this to get a Nobel Prize.

The convention in this movie about how like in apartment buildings and like big residential blocks like the apartments are so close together that like if you took down the medicine cabinet in your bathroom you could see into the next door apartment is horrifying. And the Candyman murder that they investigate in Cabrini Green is it I don't think it took place in Cabrini Green but it is based on a real murder that took place where a man entered a woman's apartment through her medicine cabinet and killed her. Jesus, that's really upsetting. And there's a part where Virginia Manson like discovers that you can literally go into the

next apartment from her bathroom from the medicine cabinet because it was also a housing project. It's just been like gentrified. Yes. Yeah. And like, and if the movie is very clear like that, the gentrified housing project of Virginia Madison and Zander Berkeley live in, you can see the Cabrini green towers from their house. Yeah. And again, like, like exactly like New York City, like, and then like perhaps, you know, even more starkly in Chicago, the way in which, like poverty that is unimaginable to like white people who have gone to college is just like a few blocks away from where you live, and you never think about it. Yeah. And like, this movie takes a, I

think, like a really ahead of its time, and really savage view of academics who have a kind of anthropological view of poverty. Yes. Of like, oh, like, you know, what an interesting social phenomenon. I hope I'm not contributing to it in any way. And I think that's underscored by a scene where like after Virginia Madsen hears the stories of these grizzly murders going on in the Cabrini Green housing projects, she's like at the university library scrolling through the microfiche and she's like got a pen in her mouth and she's like eyes wide. She's like, wow, poverty and violence in Chicago.

I'm going to blow the lid off this. Yes. It's like so crazy. She's like, you know, it stuff like this happened like right here all the time. And like, you know, this building used to even be a housing project. And I love that her, um, the decorations in her apartment are like, you know, like she has like African, like tribal masks on the wall. And she has like all these types, like all this. Her and Zander Berkeley are a real type in this movie. Yes, exactly. It's literally like, um, the dad from Get Out. It's like his apartment.

And then Virginia Madsen gets the bright idea that what's really going to... Most of my thesis so far is just hearing these boring stories that I know are made up. So I'm going to get my friend, who's black, to accompany me to the worst neighborhood in Chicago. And we're gonna talk to real people and get their real Candyman stories about the abject poverty and violence that they live with every day. Yeah, it's completely like nauseating to like that they would even have this idea

and go try and do it like this. It's very... This movie was filmed in the real Cabrini green housing projects and they were still standing. And again, once again, like in a future narrative film, like I mean, Michael Wadley was a documentary filmmaker, but like same with the absolute bombed out ruins of the South Bronx in the 80s. Like the real Cabrini housing projects is fucking terrifying. It's awful.

Yes. It is, I mean, like, look, and the movie, like, look, the movie, I think, is clear to show that, like, normal, regular, everyday people live in these places. These are not all just, like, you know, depraved, you know, impoverished, violent criminals, but, like, this is just a, like, a terrible place for any human being to, up in or live in. And I think the movie is very realistic about that. Yes. Yeah. It definitely doesn't shy away from that, I don't think. And I think them going there for the first time is where we get maybe the scariest scene in the movie where she's like entering the hole in the wall where the Candyman purportedly like entered and killed the woman in her apartment and she's taking like flash

photos with her camera as her friend just waits in the other room and it's very very nerve wracking. And then we get the I think probably the most famous shot in this movie. weights in the other room. And it's very, very nerve wracking. And then we get the I think probably the most famous shot in this movie. When she's in the Candyman apartment, she finds this kind of like, altar of offerings to him of like a pile of candy with razor blades in it. But before entering the kind of the set like the the sacrificial room or sort of the altar to Candyman, she peers through a crack in the wall

and like her head is like peering through this crack and as the camera pans out, the hole is like the middle of, in the mouth of this huge mural of Candyman's like anguished open mouth. And it's her hair peering through, like the cavernous maw of this mural of Candyman. And another, wanna know another really obnoxious white person thing like the cavernous maw of this mural of Candyman. Yes.

And another, another, want to know another really obnoxious white, white person thing that they do in this movie? Is when they're walking around like, you know, the Cabrini Green housing projects, she's just like, look at all this street art. And she's just taking like photos of like, of graffiti that says things like, I won't like death, murder, kill you. Look at all this street Street art it's so good She's so like they're so annoying and then like the scene after that when they go to dinner with their like

obnoxious Academic friends and she guy who's the guy who was appointed himself the America's top candyman expert He's just like oh, yeah, you think your thesis is going to take out my upcoming, you know, my upcoming book, Candyman, a new reflection on the epistemology of power of race in America. Yes, it's like so and like the way that she also thinks that she's so much above them as she's like, just because like, she basically went to the housing projects right before and is like, yeah, I actually went there. I was on the ground.

He's like, yeah, that guy's book is bullshit. It's just interviews. He never talks to any real people like I did. Yeah. I'm like... And the real person she talks to is like, you know, this incredibly stressed out single mother who lives next door to the apartment where the murder took place and she like lives with her Her infant son and like a huge rottweiler. That's like, yeah It's like her source of protection from like all the all the the gangs in the building she lives in

Yeah, but we know she's just like like lady. What the fuck are you doing here? She's like, yeah, like we called 9-1-1 about this and no one came. Why the fuck are you here? and once again, She's like, yeah, like, we called 911 about this and no one came. Why the fuck are you here? And once again, it's like, I love in this movie, like, you know, and she has the kind of like, condescending idea for her graduate thesis that like, oh, Candyman is like a totemic figure that the residents of Cabrini Green, like they give a name to the violence and poverty that they live with and that they can attribute, like, you know, the horrific conditions of, you know, urban decay and violence to.

But on a certain thing, like I think this movie, like I like the movie that, like this movie is a horror movie that puts poverty front and center and like the boogeyman, and I think like, I think the point is trying to convey is that like, if you're poor in America, there is always something out there that's going to get you. Yeah. And like it might as well be the fucking boogeyman. Yes.

Like it's just, you don't know where it is, but behind every corner there is, there's the thing that's going to happen that will either kill you or ruin your life forever and I think that's the ironic like turn of the the first scene being this like all like white retelling in this like upper middle-class suburbs of the Candyman myth because like It's like the Candyman is not going after those people. It's the candy man is going after like, you know, the the boogeyman doesn't actually, you know, go after the people who live in, you know, the suburbs with, you know, where everything is kind of white picket fences and everything. And it's interesting that they tell themselves the

story as if he is, is kind of like a comfort like no I'm no no yeah it's like white ladies that are like see zip ties everywhere and think they're gonna be fucking abducted yes a Costco parking lot exactly like middle-class America is like the safest quality of like the safest most predictable quality of life that any human beings have ever experienced on the planet and as a result I really think it drives white people insane Yeah, they need to invent ever more baroque fantasies for how they may be killed or tortured or you know robbed or something There's nothing funner than making yourself feel afraid, especially when your life is totally fucking boring. Yes

and One of the about like the the Candyman expert at dinner, tells her like the genesis of the Candyman myth, which as he says dates back to the 19th century, to the 1819. And the original Candyman was an artist of some repute, who was the son of a slave who had been freed and later become a successful merchant. And then he became a slave, who had been freed and later become a successful merchant, and then he became a prominent artist who was commissioned to paint a portrait of the virginal white daughter of like a city father. And they fell in love, and the daughter became pregnant, and you know, in an act of revenge he like a sick a kind of a lynch mob on Candyman who cut his hand off and

then like brought him to an apiary and Covered him with honeycomb and had thousands and thousands of bees sting him to death while he's still alive. Yes Charming story. Yes charming story and I oh and they did it and then burned him to death on the lot Where Cabrini Green was current was built? Yes, charming story. And I... Oh, and they did it and then burned him to death on the lot where Cabrini Green was built. Yes. And also after they cut his hand off, they replaced it with a meat hook, which if you're going to murder a guy horribly in a way that basically guarantees that there's going to be a ghost involved, don't give the ghost a weapon before you do it.

It seems really like stuck a toilet scrubber in his stuff. Yeah. So I think like Virginia Madsen is so annoyed by like the douchebag professor that she takes it upon herself to go back to the Cabrini Green projects by herself. Yeah, alone this time. Talk to the neighbor, the lady again, who tells her you're you're fucking crazy for coming here alone, you know, right? Yeah. He also he he also talks to a young kid who tells her another Candyman story, another horrible Candyman story about.

Yeah, this is really boy, a mentally handicapped boy who was castrated in a public bathroom right on the housing projects. And they're like, she's like, really? And he's like, yeah, that bathroom right there. And she's like, this I gotta see. Hessa, the bathroom scene in this movie is terrifying. It's so scary. It's so upsetting too. It's like, oh my god, it's so good. Like she walks in and there's like, how should I describe this? Shit street art on the walls? Yes, it's, she, you wanted to say look at this beautiful street art again, but it's literally written in shit on the walls

and the stalls. It says, um, to the suite. What does it say again? To the suite, go the sweets or something. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, and it's pointing to the last stall. Yeah. And like, you know, she sort of like approaches like creeks open the door and sees like a shit-stained toilet filled to the brim with bees. Yes. Just coursing. It's like it's such a god. It's a really one of the singular images in horror movies that really like freeze your soul. Yeah. And then if that if that wasn't bad enough she is then accosted in the bathroom by a gang of men one of them says, I heard you're looking for the

Candyman bitch, and he's like, you found him. And he has a hook, and they beat her in this bathroom badly. And she goes to the hospital. And then of course, like the police interviewer, and they're like, you know, yeah, Candyman's like, he's a neighborhood drug dealer. And like, she identifies him in a lineup, the police arrest them. And once again, they're like, whether it a neighborhood drug dealer and she identifies him in a lineup, the police arrest them. And once again, they're like, whether it's Gutter Damarung or the local drug dealer, they're like, this is one urban medicine, it's in the books. Send this one, book them. Candy Man's over. And she's like completely, I love, one of my favorite things about this movie is that she goes from her being on top

of the world and then just like, like because she's like, Oh, not only am I interested in my work after I was nearly beaten to death. Exactly. And she's like, and her friend is like, you're and the pictures you took with your camera, they all developed, they all came out. So and she's like, wow, nothing can make this day go wrong. And she's walking in the parking lot. Yes. Yes. Yes. And you just hear, Helen. Helen. Helen. Be my victim.

That was a pretty good Tony Todd I just did. But yeah, she's like, wow, if I'd gotten stabbed, I could just get real publishing houses interested in this book, not just university presses. But like, they're like, oh, no, they're like Candyman, just the local drug dealers, took on the name to scare the kids and to not snitching on them. But no, we've enter, enter Tony Todd. Now we talked about in Exorcist 3, enter Brad Doroff, enter the Doroff Zone. We just see Tony Todd in the parking lot.

He's got this beautiful fur-trimmed trench coat, fur-trimmed leather trench coat, it's so cool. And he starts talking to her, and she's clearly hypnotized by him. She can't move and she can't speak. And his eyes are like fluttering. It's total transmo. He says, Helen, I came for you.

And what he says is that in her publication of her work disproving the Candyman myth, she has compelled him to shed innocent blood to, because like he says, I gain power from people's belief. He is a manifestation of people's belief in the urban legend. And in her academic debunking of Candyman, she has compelled him to murder anew. You've sown doubt among my congregation, Nelon. Yes, his congregation. And his congregation are like, you know, the people in misery and fear who feed him and that he, like, he consecrates the bonds of his faith through these unbelievable acts of murder. Yes. So she is, yeah, he says,

I am the writing on the wall, the whisper in the classroom, come with me. And then she sort of blacks out and she wakes up absolutely covered in blood in the apartment of the woman in the Cabrini Green Towers that she interviewed. She is covered in blood and her dog, her Rottweiler has been decapitated. The woman is in an insane state of panic and attacks Virginia Madsen when she sees her and her infant son is missing.

Yes. And the crib is soaked in blood. This is like the first time seeing this movie, if you don't know that the son is just missing, you're like, Holy shit, did they really go there? Like, it's they really like kill the baby. But basically, Virginia Madsen, the woman attacks Virginia Madsen. And Virginia Madsen cuts her with a knife and then the police storm in and arrest her. And yeah, she's like, I have no memories. I woke up in this woman's apartment covered in blood.

Her child is missing. You got to believe me, I didn't do anything. It was like, not so fun being a white lady now is it So yeah, she is um, she is you know, basically Accused of murder. She's like booked by the police. I think she gets out on bail She oh she tries to call her husband's Andrew Berkeley from booking but for some reason he's not at home at 3 a.m Oh, I wonder why 3 a.m. And he's not home. Well, where he is But yeah, like her life completely falls apart. Like so like she confronts him about,

like he bills her out, there's media, the media's everywhere, it's become a circus. And he says, look, I'm gonna stand by you and we'll get through it. And then like of course she confronts him about it, why he wasn't home. And he's like, don't worry, we're gonna get through this baby. Don't worry about it. As you can see him like eyeing the exit. So and then like you know while she's like awaiting trial or indictment, she starts going through the slides that her friend got developed for her and she sees

indictment, she starts going through the slides that her friend got developed for her and she sees Candyman in the reflection of one of the mirrors standing behind her in her slide. And then Candyman visits her again and he says that he has the child and unless she comes with him, the child will die in her place. And then like, yeah, your disbelief destroyed the faith of my congregation. So I was obliged to come. And you can restore the belief, the belief to make lovers hold themselves tighter in their rapture. Again, like I love, I love Candyman's, I love like the Gothic romantic quality of Candyman. I love the gothic romantic quality of Candyman. I love the poetry of his violence and his seduction of Virginia Madsen. He loves being Candyman. You can tell him.

He got a raw deal, but he's grown to appreciate it for the years of being just a scary, spooky legend. And then, like I said, I got to talk about Tony Todd, which to me is like, will always be a legend for me. Like Candyman, probably his most iconic film role, but like, you know, you've seen him in a ton of movies, like The Rock, The Crow, The Night of the Living Dead remake. Like Tony Todd is just like, he has such a presence and he has such a beautiful, wonderful voice.

And for me, of course, we talked a little bit about with Andy Robinson in Hellraiser, who plays Garrick on Deep Space Nine. But for me, Tony Todd will always be Worf's brother Kern from Next Generation. And of course, an adult Jake Sisco in The Visitor, which if you haven't seen it, the Deep Space Nine episode, The Visitor,

if you wanna see a truly moving Tony Todd performance, The Visitor is one of, I cry every time I see this episode. It is one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking episodes of TV I've ever seen, and it is entirely due to the performance of Tony Todd. I love him in The Rock when he says, I don't listen to soft ass shit. I don't listen to soft ass shit. To Nicholas Cage.

I don't listen to that soft shit. Yeah. Yeah. He's just like, yeah, just a wonderful voice. I would like to, I would like a Siri mod on my phone that's just Candyman talking to me. Yeah. Will.

Would you like me to look that up, Will? Will. Be. Will. Would you like me to look that up, Will? Will. Be my victim. It just says that every once in a while, randomly. Whenever my phone rings from an unrecognized number, it says, be my victim. It's like, not this time.

No. I won't be picking up this fucking call. And by the way, listener, if you know me or don't know me, if you call my phone for any reason, that's violence. Yeah. If you make a phone call to me or text me, that is violence. And speaking of violence, her and Jodie Foster's friend shows up at the apartment, you know,

and then Candyman kills her. Yeah, it's a great scene where she's like knocking on the door. She's like, Helen? And Helen's inside like, oh shit. She walks in, sees the Candyman and boom, she's dead. Guts her. Yeah. And once again, she's in a situation where she's alone covered in blood and wakes up next to a dead woman

Yes, it's and of course but this time she wakes up at hand handcuffs and it's like straight to the looney bin for you Yes, it's like alright. We're not bringing you home again. Yeah But I then she gets whisked, she starts hallucinating the candy man. There's a great scene where she's like, she's strapped to a gurney and Tony Todd appears floating above her, you know, very sexual style and says, allow me one sweet perfect kiss. Meaning, my hook from your navel to your throat. One sweet perfect kiss.

And there's a, I love the scene with her and the Dr. Burke, her therapist, her psychiatrist in the in the Nuthouse. Do you remember, the guy who plays Robert Burke is, he has a small part in Tim Burton's Ed Wood as the producer who he tries to sell Glen or Glenda to. Oh yeah, oh my god. And you know, it's just like, he lets her know that she's actually been on Thorazine for a month, and like she demands to see her attorney, and he says like, actually I'm working on your defense,

which is an insanity place, so it would behoove you to answer my questions. Yeah. sense, which is an insanity place. So it would behoove you to answer my questions. Yeah. And like, you know, he shows he shows her footage of himself freaking freaking out about Candyman. And like, you know, she like at this point, like she thinks that she is legit cracked and begins to profess his innocence. And then but then of course, she acts I think she either accidentally did she accidentally or intentionally summoned Candyman. She says I can prove it. She says no, no, no, I can prove it.

And then she looks in the mirror across the room and says Candyman five times. And then it's this amazing like part where nothing's happening and the psychiatrist just like sighs and goes, well, and then like, he goes like, oh, Candyman is it reminds me of when Ripley and Bishop get back to the Sulaco at the end of Aliens Yeah, it's just like not bad for a replicant and they're like, all right done. Then you just see Bishop jerk for a second And then just like all that milk blood just shoot out of his mouth as you see the Queen Just like our tail goes straight through his chest We love Bishop folks. We love Bishop RIP and then the great seat of Candyman exiting through the window like backwards. He's just

sort of like whoosh like out the way Candyman gets around in this, in this so good. The whoosh out the window combined with the, you know, the hovering over her gurney. It's like so sick. So, like, at this point, she breaks out of the shut up and eat home and returns home to her gentrified condo. And it's been... Yeah, it's been gentrified again. It's been painting the walls. It's been double gentrified.

Yeah, and like, she has been gentrified with a younger grad student who has now moved in. I know she's been on Thorazine for a month, but holy shit, Zander Berkley moves fast. He's got the next one, he's got the next one moving in. It hasn't even been a month. Repainting the walls. It's like your wife is accused of murder. And look, I understand, it's time for a divorce. Yeah. But you know, for Pryde's sake, man, come on. Yeah.

So she, you know, she sees what's going on with that. And at this point, she truly has nothing left but Candyman. Yes. Well, she, I think in the scene where she gets home, she, she starts to feel a little taste of the power of being a legend. And when the girlfriend and Xander Berkley are terrified of her. Just please leave. Just don't hurt us. Take anything you want. You can have the sectional. Yeah. And she's, you know, she leaves, she has nothing, truly nothing. And, you know, there's only one thing to do and it's to, you know, save the baby. You know, she's just got to go for the Candyman's thrall. She returns to the Candyman apartment, and she discovers further hidden apartments and recesses and attics in this space.

And she sort of gets to, she finds a mural depicting what happened to Candyman, of him being murdered by the lynch mob. And yeah, this is the real Phantom of the Opera moment where like she finds like not not his organ per se but like this is his lair yes I love thinking about like yeah like Tony Todd is like Black Phantom of the Opera in this movie yes of this like disfigured like a man who's like been physically disfigured but also like emotionally disfigured by the the horror of you you know, being murdered

for the loving a woman and having a child with her. Yes. And yeah, like, it's just like this, like beautiful, like, this scene, this is the scene where like, she gives, she gives herself to him. And then we get the amazing, the amazing, again, once I talk about there's no, you cannot duplicate real living things. We get the amazing scene where Tony Todd opens his trench coat and you see his rib cage and like his internal organs, you see his chest cavity entirely filled with bees. Yes. And then they start coming out of his mouth.

And then this scene where he opens his mouth And it is filled with bees and he leans in to kiss her and he kisses her with a mouthful of bees Now the famous story about this movie is that Tony Todd? Agreed to do this scene where they like really put thousands of bees on his entire body and face put thousands of bees on his entire body and face with the proviso in his contract that he would get an extra thousand dollars for every time he got stung. And I think he netted about 15 or $20,000 out of that scene.

Oh my God. Good for him. Yeah, just like, talk about commitment. I mean, it's just, once again, we talk about like just such a singular image that like burns itself into your brain. And I said, the horror and beauty and kind of, I don't know what to call it. It's just the kind of visual metaphor of his sick love

and his tortured romantic horror. The pain, yeah. Yeah, of just bees pouring out of his mouth, just crawling out of his open mouth and then embracing her for a kiss. It's just, oh, it's just, it's really, it's like the best of horror in my opinion. It's so good.

It's just like, it's just, so like, you know, he promises her that like, in joining him in this exquisite death, like, you know, like, she will, you know, live forever with him. Yes. And it was always you, Helen. And in the mural, we see, like, the depiction of his lover from the 19th century, it focuses it on her eyes, and like, it kind of looks like Helen.

Yeah, it's like the exact same faces as Helen So like I feel was he like she gets away from him somehow like she like she still like doesn't want to fully commit to being candy manned Yeah, no, she he he backs out of the deal. He's like sorry Helen. Yes Gotta go Sorry, Helen. Yes, I was like, he's like, you gotta go. Yeah. I'm done. You're like, Helen, you're a little too thirsty. And he goes, she like, cause she wants to exchange her life

for the infant. And he says, there's time for like, it's time for a new, like, what do you say, a new, like through sacrifice, like a new myth will be born. Yes. And she wakes up in like, and outside, in like, there's this huge bonfire that's been constructed in front of the Cabrini Green projects of like garbage

and just like old furniture and shit like that. And she can hear the baby crying inside of it. But like she has, she has a hook and she begins like tearing through the garbage with the hook and the residents of the projects like see the hook and they're like, oh, it's Candyman. And everyone comes out and as she begins tearing through the garbage with the hook. And the residents of the projects see the hook. And they're like, oh, it's Candyman. And everyone comes out.

And as she's crawling through this mound of garbage to find this screaming infant, they light it on fire. Yes. So as the flames begin to consume her and this infant in the bonfire, Candyman appears. And he's sort of reneged on the deal. Yeah, we're all gonna die here together. Big happy family.

Yeah, and basically, she like, Virginia Madsen saves the baby, but like crawls out of this burning garbage. Like she stabs Candyman with like a burning steak and he's consumed in flames. And he's like, Helen, I wasn't that into you anyway. Yeah. And like she saves the infant,

but like in crawling out from underneath this burning mound of garbage, he's badly burned and lies. She dies. All right. She does save the infant. Now keep in mind that like in being consumed in this bonfire Candyman says like it's time

for like a new legend, a new legend, a new mythology to be born. And then we see at Helen's funeral, Xander Berkley is there with the grad student. I like you kinda seeing that seem like the new girlfriend kind of already hates him, because you can see what a piece of shit he is. Yeah, and he also hates her. It's like a total mutual hate between both of them.

Before they lower her coffin into the grave, all of the residents, including the woman whose infant she saved, is leading a procession of all the residents of Cabrini Green are coming to pay their respects to Virginia Maddison. Yeah. Like, she finally got the respect of the subject she was unscrupulously mining for academic content.

Yes, exactly. Finally. And then we get the great last scene in this movie, which is that like Xander Berkley is back at home in his shitty newly painted pink apartment with a new younger girlfriend who he hates and he's like, you. And they've been full of mutual hate and distrust of one another. And he realizes his life is kind of shit. And what does he do?

He goes into the bathroom and starts crying like a bitch. And he says, Helen. And he goes, Helen, Helen, Helen, Helen, Helen. He says her name five times, and then she appears right behind him, and she's bald, she's covered in burns. She's just all burnt to a crisp, and she goes, hi.

And then the new girlfriend comes in, opens the door, he's in the bathtub, gutted, fucking stemmed the stern stern just blood everywhere. It's a great great dead Zander Berkeley He look at just like he looks so dumb, but it's so horrifying I love him. He's so good And then Like yeah She has become the new miracle as Candyman prophesies, and the last scene of the movie is in, like, Candyman's Phantom of the Opera type layer.

The mural depicting his murder has been replaced, and it's like a new mural featuring a burned and bald Virginia Madsen emerging from the flames of this conflagration as the new miracle born, the new legend that will avenge cheating on... Shitty boyfriends and husbands everywhere who are balding. Candyman? No, Candywoman. Yeah, that's right. That's right, everyone. Yeah, so, I mean, Candyman, once again, like, an urban horror movie that, like, puts the

city of Chicago front and center and just, like, similar to Wolfman, it's just, like, yeah, the past is never really past. It's no matter, like, how much you try to think otherwise or, like, live in the modern world. Like, the new, like, there are always new miracles out there that are like reaching out to us at every given moment behind under every street lamp and honked horn and bodega. Yes, yes, it's beautiful.

It's beautiful how spooky the cities are. So that, yeah, that does it for our Gulls E for a goal. These screams that as it's been awesome. Yeah, some of our some of our best episodes of movie mindset, I guess, is like looking back briefly on it. What would you say was like the scariest movie or moment from all the ones we featured thus far? Hmm. Trying to think, I think Exorcist 3

had some of the scariest moments, for sure. The hospital scene in Exorcist 3. I think, yeah, there's been a lot. I think a lot of stuff in Candyman is up there. Oh, we forgot to talk about how it's another hook kill. The grand, the granddaddy

of hook killing movies is Candyman, truly. And yeah, as I promised, the meat hook gets the MVP of this season. Yes, absolutely. It can't be beat. Yeah, like for me, like scariest overall is probably Exorcist 3. Actually, no, I mean, I don't know. It's a toss up between Exorcist 3 and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I would say scariest and best individual scene is probably the dinner scene from Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Yes, definitely. Best performance, gotta go with Brad Dorif in Exorcist 3.

And then like funnest, most enjoyable, probably Halloween 3, Season of the Witch. Yes, Season of the witch was awesome. I mean, we just got a chance to see that in a theater with like an audience, most of whom hadn't seen it before. Yeah. It was so much fun. It was so much fun. The shock that was going on when during certain scenes was incredible. Also shout out like, you know, maybe not best performance,

but probably one of my favorite performances is Dan O'Harely as Connell Cochran. Yes, Connell Cochran is the ultimate, you know, evil magnate. The OG evil magnate who just wants to... Why do I do it? Because it's a joke. It's the best joke of all. The one on the children. Like stealing candy from a baby. Say that sounds like a larf. All right. Well, Hestel, let's close the books on this spooky season and on this mini series of Movie Mindset.

This has been awesome. And we will be back in 2024 with another full season two of Movie Mindset. Yes. Bye, everyone. Bye bye. Till next time. Stay watching movies, everyone. Stay spooky. Like a thing from another world. Watch the skies. No, watch your TV set or a movie. Stay watching that. Not your laptop or your phone.

Stay watching. Stay watching movies until we come back in twenty twenty four. Yes. I salute you. I salute all the horror heads out there. Until next time, everybody. Bye bye. We're gonna get ourselves a treat Delicious things to eat With a bottle of candy peets Sparkling drinks such as dandy Chocolate eyes and a candy So let's all go to the lobby To get ourselves a treat Let's all go to the lobby

To get ourselves a treat I'll be taking ourselves to the streets