Chapo Trap House - UNLOCKED - In Conclusion, Palestine is a Land of Contrasts feat. @Intifadarling (5/23/18)

Episode Date: June 1, 2018

Due to overwhelming popular demand, we've unlocked this recent episode... Felix talks with @intifadarling, a Palestinian-American activist based in Ramallah. They discuss the context of the May 14 massacre of Palestinian protesters in Gaza, the political situation between Israel, America and Palestine, and the future of the Palestinian people.

Hey everybody, this is Felix. We're doing a solo one-on-two interview today. We teased during the weekend show that we would have a more in-depth conversation about Gaza with people who actually not just knew the situation better than us but sort of lived it and I'm happy to be here today with my friend Ruan Payoon. Ruan is a Palestinian-American activist and well, I think we should just hop into it. This is obviously far easier asked than said but just for people who aren't as familiar, could you give sort of a quick timeline of the political mechanisms of Israel and USAID in Gaza since Israel's pullout of Gaza in 2005?

Yeah, so basically in 2005 Israel moved a few like the few thousand settlers that were in Gaza as part of like look at our peace deal you know we are giving them so much what are they going to give us but I think and this is something I always try to emphasize to people when we talk about it is that Israel is very much still in control of Gaza like when people in Gaza need to travel out they need to like apply to Israel for permission in order to leave and to travel Israel decides which which goods come in it's it's a blockade so stuff that could be used to help rebuild from the previous like bombing campaign or

from 2005 till now the like the periodic bombings of Gaza the goods that will that can be brought in in order to help rebuild in order to help do all these things it's been very difficult for them to do so so that's why you still see things like the sewage plant that was bombed in the last in 2014 it's still they haven't really been able to fix that to rebuild it it's that and with the Palestinian Authority has been working together basically to also the cut like electricity like there isn't a 24-hour constant source of electricity so I think like Israel's relationship with Gaza is that it's it's distinct in that

it's not occupied in the same way the West Bank is but it's very much like anybody who thinks that Hamas is like in charge in any meaningful sense and that it's like their territory doesn't really understand the situation on the ground and obviously the US is complicit in that in allowing Israel to do so but I always important to me to emphasize is that like Palestinian Authority is also not its own thing it's a subcontract it's like a subcontractor for the Israeli government and the whole like rivalry between Fatah and Hamas like Fatah is the party for the Palestinian Authority Hamas is kind of what's

like I guess the political party that's in the Gaza and it's it's basically just I don't even it's a lot of things it's weird because it's like when you talk about Israel's relationship with Gaza it's like okay why are they still there I think a big part of that is like ever since that like that pullout if you will like now there aren't settlers but they'll still talk about the settlements that are close to Gaza like these are our civilians these are what we're afraid for but I think part of it is honestly like testing weapons it's very much part of that industry for them if you look at the kind of weapons that are

used they like they take these weapons and they start using it in population Gaza before it ends up being used elsewhere before it ends up being like kind of exported back to the US I think the recent scary things have been what they've been calling butterfly bullets these bullets that just like explode upon impact and they've been leaving what like doctors and the rest are describing as like fist-sized holes upon exit and same with like these tear gas drones whatever the hell that green gas was that they they were unleashing on the population of Gaza and I think part of it because I think you were

also asking why they need that population to be subjugated to that extent I do think a lot of it is I think it's psychological too to be really honest because it's like oh you have like you guys are still talking about this right of return like we're going to show you that this is what you're going to get instead of that and I think part of just dehumanizing Palestinians as a whole like it because when people think I think in my conversations with people who don't know much about Palestine I think they think about Gaza first in some ways and I think to them it's always it's either like okay it's like

are they terrorists who started it or are they civilians who are just defending themselves so I think part of it is just Israel exerting its control in order to say like these are these are the lowers these are these are not civilized and humane the way the way Israelis are so I think it's a combination of those of those things and I think that's kind of how it's it's really been since 2005 like those like increasingly so the travel restrictions the what we see now that is described as like this open-air prison yeah it it seems like there is an ethos of testing weapons there but also the rising

scale of brutality I've seen it sort of as a way for them to the Israelis to show off their military might after sort of being shown as mortal in Lebanon a little bit and I also think that there's this sort of escalating game of dehumanization which is to say when Israel becomes more and more brutal and commits more and more senseless acts everyone sort of talks along the lines of oh they're alienating sort of you know more liberal elements but I think so fucking frustrating things it's so it's stupid yeah because it's like it strengthens their their profile with more hardline people because it's like for

them they can go oh well they had to get look look at the brutal acts they're making us commit must be really bad if we have to do the worst fucking thing the worst thing was just seeing these multiple people who are like like liberal Jews like I know if today's really hard for you know that I'm here for you I was like shut the fuck up shut the fucking self-centered it would just it blew my mind it's like this is so hard for me to defend massacres I was like wow I imagine if we all had these kind of problems like what the fuck is wrong with you it really and it's the thing it's weird because it's like this

it's it's the same shit like in America where people are like look at Trump and it's like no the shit was happening before Trump like the same people who want to pin it all on the coup are very upset because they have to face this like this reality that was kind of obviously the rest of us which is like Israelis are fucking racist is really racist shit like they're like obviously there's this element of Israeli activists who will go to protest and they will be against the Gaza bombings and all that and that's great but it's the idea that there's some sort of like vibrant left is like delusional it's

there's people who cheer it on like that was the thing it's like I think the numbers were like what 91% of Israeli support of the Gaza bombings like did you see that near time shit where it was like yeah oh you know they they like I hope I hope every bullet was for a good reason like that was like the average is really his reaction so the idea is that like maybe they're in like maybe it's becoming more possible for activists and stuff in the U.S. and in the West to call out Israel that like more than I think we've seen in the past but like the average is really is cheering on this government like they they don't like

Palestinians they don't they're very terrified of Palestinians and like it wasn't messing with Netanyahu's popularity at all I don't actually look up that number but it was I really it's like 90% or something like that I mean Amos Oz for example is looked at is sort of like the liberal line of Israel he's their perennial like lefty veteran writer who's standing a thwart the increasingly openly rightward shift of the country but if you look at his actual positions he supported Lebanon in 06 he supported he supported 2009 he supported protective edge any military action he supports and it's there is you

know in Israeli left but it has literally been beaten down and we can I guess that's a whole another episode if you can talk about how much the Israeli left has been sabotage and literally murdered to some ends but the fact is that there is very broad support in here and I just speaking about liberals I mean we I think we all saw that tweet I forget who's from I think it was from one of those guys who like replies to Trump oh I know which one I know which one you're fucking Michael yeah I'm pro-Israel but I'm not pro massacre and it's like what do you think what do you think undergirds this state you know it's like

these are people who are just their biggest frustration as that is not even actually the people who are dying it's just like wait what about me am I still a good person I was like nobody gives a shit about you like you're not nobody fucking asked you and I don't even know it's like this whole thing it's like especially it's so important when we talk about Gaza that always gets underestimated it's like it's almost like people think that the people in Gaza just came out of the sky when it's like 70% of them are refugees 70% of them were ethnically cleansed from their homes and they want to go back and

it's it's that the reasons they were there is because of like violence and massacres like they were multiple massacres of Palestinian villages it was at a time where there was no like television or radio so you just heard about these mass these awful massacres and you were like okay I need to leave before this possibly happens to my family there are people who've survived massacres warned as there are people who just like went through the worst the worst fucking kinds of violence and that's what that was like I don't know what they think the Hagan on Irgun were doing they weren't passing out fucking

cookies like it was they they they like white people out like there were way more Palestinians before in these areas and it's like they keep forgetting that part or to like oh well they just left because of violence I'm like okay why can't they come back but everybody else if they have like a link to Judaism it's like okay they're allowed to come back I don't know it's just everything about the conference because it really encapsulates so much about the conflict in general that people always tried to like minimize or it's like they're like oh show restraint like I know they be fine if they killed like half the

Gazans but not as many as they did I I just can't imagine what it is to have those kind of like fucked up non-consistent ass morals but that's exactly those kind of people like that that weirdo I feel like there is sort of this modern deliberate misunderstanding of what ethnic cleansing is I mean we see it with sort of like you know the Turks incursions into AFRIN is the same sort of thing where it's we just willfully don't look at things that you could point to on a map point to things like shifting demographics changing entire neighborhoods and cities their ethnic makeup doing things like changing

the names of places and just look at the numbers of one group go down and down and down and be replaced and replaced and replaced and there is a willful deliberate action of not specifically looking at things by sort of US allies or proxies as ethnic cleansing when they so absolutely like the language that they use like if this was anywhere else they wouldn't hesitate they would call it genocide like that's just the honesty of it and like I mean a bunch of people were saying those things right like oh if this was it on everybody would be cheering it on if this was this and it's like it's true it's also I mean the

weird thing about Turkey because also fucking pointed this out to me what as well but it's weird because this it's the same shit like you know how Turkey will be like we didn't do the Armenian genocide like I wasn't a genocide like it just like happened or whatever the fuck like excuse they have but then like whenever a Turkish like you'll see it like whatever a Turkish person gets pissed they're like at an Armenian forgetting like too uppity I guess they're like oh well we'll do or to anyone they're like oh we'll do to you what we did to the Armenians like they fucking know what happened but it's just like

that official it's the same shit I see what is what it is to be honest like they'll be like the next one didn't happen but then they'll be like oh you'll hear these chants at like Israeli soccer games or shit well they'll be like may your village burn or may you face a mill or at the protest in Haifa the recent protest in Haifa in which like Israeli cops beat up and arrest a bunch of Palestinians they were like oh may you face a million neck buzz it's like what is that if not like understanding that happened but thinking it it's okay like it's not a cleansing if it's justified yeah the line on the Armenian

genocide the best line explaining it I heard was my friend Dan who said they can't decide whether it was fake or if it happened it was good yes yes you sell the myth to the world and then are secretly not so secretly proud of what actually happened to yourself I mean did you there was a fucking TRT article like this year that was like interviewing survivors of Armenian or median violence early 20th century it's it's on the anniversary of the yeah I mean that was also what they were doing I think the the fact that they chose that embassy to be opened on this day I don't think it was an accident I

think it was very much a big like middle finger to us where it's like we want this to be the anniversary of this thing and not the anniversary of you know the brutality that we committed against you is this a fucking thing it's and it is it's very true like when you look at which other countries would get this treatment it's Israel gets away with so much that and they'll be like oh my god why is Israel being singled out I was like nobody gets this fucking special favorite the way you guys like you're singled out in the positive like you're literally allowed to get away with so much shit that if somebody that wasn't

loved by the US like this like no fucking way would they get away with it like no fucking way yeah it's this thing that happens well it's a very sort of like I guess very American thing where you look at events devoid of any power relationship yeah I mean you get you go you go say why is Israel being singled out as if Israel was just this eternal nation that has always existed and exists independent of American support and exists independent of carrying out American in policy goals in the region we just have nothing to do with the most powerful nation in the world just has absolutely nothing to do with it and we

are randomly singling out this one Jewish country and it's it's insane the amount of contortion and willful blindness you have to do to sort of make that it's always I never get used to it like you know I've been Palestinian all my life and I've been as if you could believe it and I've been doing like this kind of activism and stuff for a long time and dealing with these arguments for a long time and still the levels of just like I just want to poke some of these people like are what are you talking about it really is it's the whole thing about like oh or my favorite is just the whole like oh well what

about like Saudi Arabia like clearly it must be cool with Saudi Arabia like what about all these other countries it's like they also can't decide whether they are like better than all the like savage Arab countries or if it's like how dare you hold us to higher standards and it's especially now that they're the fucking Mohammed bin Salman the asshole and Netanyahu are like loving it up and they're still like well what about all these other countries I was like the fact that you're even pointing these other it's like weird it's like it's an admission of guilt but what about like this other thing I mean it's also there

is just all the arguments they have at least that's what makes me happy is like all the arguments they have only work on people who don't want to actually think about what's happening and they're they're not even like updated they're just terrible like anyone with any sort of minimal knowledge on this I think should reach the conclusion that what they're saying is not really making much sense yeah they are acting like King Faisal is still in Saudi Arabia it's there's even so yeah so who has a pretense of caring about it I love it it's like these other fucking Arab dictators like love them like who are

they gonna talk about CC or like all I don't know if you saw this but like they're always like why are why are Palestinians in Gaza like why are they protesting Israel closing the crossing and not Egypt closing the crossing I'm like but they are like I don't know where they got this idea that Palestinians like fucking love other Arab governments but it's part of that whole like it's just the racism where they're like oh well they're all Arab they must like be in on whatever like the plan is together they must be in it for the same thing this as if like I like a Palestinians in any way the same

situation as like a Saudi Arabian just because they're both Arab like it doesn't like edit it's all the arguments they have it just pisses me off to no end so going a little bit to May 14th what has been like day-to-day existence like for a Gaza since the pullout daily existence honestly it's just constant constant dehumanization like it's or constant just like the lack of the bear sort of necessities of life it's always been really frustrating for me like talking to my friends in Gaza and they might as well be like on another planet because it's like I can't go see them they can't go see me I have

friends in there who just desperately want to leave and they're just not able to do so because you have to apply for these permits and it's very very like people like people on are on these wait lists to get out for like medical reasons and they're not able to do so like even to go to a hospital in Ramallah like not even to go to an Israeli hospital like as much as they try to hold that over our heads it's and they're not allowed to do so like they're the reality like day-to-day reality in the Gaza is like if you get really sick your hospitals are going to be like understaffed they're gonna have like

even though like the doctors where they are doing amazing but it's they have so little to work with there's gonna like not enough people not enough supplies medicine is blocked from coming in so if you need that kind of medicine you're basically screwed unless you're like you're one of the lucky ones who gets a permit to leave and go to a hospital that can do it I think also like if we're talking about May 14 the reality is that there are so many people that were injured that should have lived that should have made it with the injury they had but they weren't allowed to go to a hospital that had that kind of treatment

or like the hospitals were so impacted that they couldn't deal with the amount of injuries like it's so weird because it's like everyone looks at the number of like the people who were killed but like the thousand were injured and where are they gonna go and the hospitals can't even like deal with that so that's the reality if you're sick or if you're injured if you dare to like protest against the reason that you're even in this situation I think another reality is just is it's always the electricity cuts like you can't keep you can't keep food from not spoiling it's hot as fuck and they don't have a seat they don't

have these kind of I think I saw somebody else I forgot who said this but somebody said something where like people in the rest they learn to keep the windows open no matter what the weather is like because if the windows are closed and there's some kind of bombing or there's some kind of anything like the glass is gonna shatter and go everywhere so you just keep the windows open so that you don't so that glass doesn't get everywhere that's part of it too it's it's like it's a lot of things it's and also right now say how the the Palestinian Authority was screwing people over they weren't allowing they

were sort of putting a stop on a lot of people's salaries so it was just people weren't even having like the money now you're threatened with like getting evicted probably it's like so weird to think about that like you can get evicted you don't have the money where you're going to go all these kind of things the mental health crisis site in the Gaza is is completely just completely like not talked about nearly enough I don't think because it's we're so busy trying to defend people from being like oh these are terrorists who deserve to die don't even think about the ones who survived who have who have

been through multiple wars who've seen really awful things who've seen their family members their neighbors their friends die so now you have like a suicide crisis like you have multiple people who've committed suicide because they're like there's no end to this the suffering like the I don't know if you heard about recently a man and Raza who set himself on fire as a protest like trying to kill himself I think last I heard he was he's still alive I don't know how long he could stay alive but he's still alive and just like that was done out of like this protest and it's it's it's hellish it's hellish I it's

really there I don't think there even are enough words and it's really bizarre to think that people would defend this kind of situation because it's like they would never want to live in these kind of conditions but they would never accept that for themselves or for anybody else and it's really like protesting is the fucking least they could do like protesting is the least it's it's bizarre like the entire conversation around it once you know what's actually the lives of people there I feel like a large part of the picture here that gets overlooked by people who just take that you know I

don't like massacres line is not looking at the power relationship here so could you talk a little bit on the economic relationship well I guess relationship may be the wrong word but the role the economic exploitation on Israel's part plays on plays with their relationship with Gaza because there is you know a lot Israel benefits a lot from Palestinians both on guest worker permits and undocumented Palestinian labor where they can pay them even less it's like I think it's like a lot of the things that the PA does too is pretty much at Israel's behest like so when we talk about these people who aren't

getting their salaries like that's very much at attempt to sort of choke like choke these Palestinians out basically it's that and even like the people who pay for those visas like to get out like you'll you can end up paying all kinds of these fees and then like not even get that visa to leave I think there were multiple like there was a series I guess I don't know maybe about a year ago about like Palestinian students who were accepted in Gaza who were accepted into schools outside of Gaza and just like paying all this kind of money for these money that they just didn't like didn't have for these fees to be able

to leave and not even able to do so if we're talking about in general how how Israel exploits Palestinians something that always would fear in like infuriate me was basically a lot of the Palestinians who work like among Israelis or like in Israeli companies and these things they have to pay the fees to be in the Union but they don't get the same protection from the Union I could look that up too so it's like they have like you have to pay these Union fees and then the Union doesn't even defend you the way it defends Jewish Israelis so that's part of it I know you were asking in general about like if Israel like need

needs Palestinians in order to like prop this up I think there is the weird thing also it's not even just like the exploitation of the workers it's that I the more you sort of look at the reality here I think they need like a population to buy their their goods their produce and how they push it in the West Bank and it's like frustrating when you go to these like different grocery stores and they have all these Israeli products and they'll work to make sure that they're cheaper than say like the Palestinian products or the Arab products so you have these people who are like okay well I can't afford to to not get

these products and then it just helps boost their economy and that's definitely true in the rest of the two and like it's not just in the West Bank and I don't know if you saw recently I forgot which is really a government official said this I probably got that fucking idea of Twitter account but it was like oh look we open the humanitarian crossing and these are the goods we're letting in and it's like they'll basically shove their own goods like first they'll put people on this like they'll injure all these people they'll kill all these people they put all these people through all this like economic strains these

daily hardships and then they will open the crossing every time they're in the mood to and they'll shove basically their own products in and they'll make cousins but it's really like dystopian they just they will sell them these things and that's it also ends up just being profitable for them in the end I so I think a certain set they are more than happy to have this population to exploit as long as they can continue dehumanize as long as they can continue this idea that people aren't even asking when the hell the occupation is supposed to end like the occupation like the concept of an occupation is

supposed to have like an expiry date but they're not even doing anything to make that to make that happen because the status quo is good for them the status quo is it works that this is what their economy is their economy is mostly fucking like arms and then selling their goods like in big part to Palestinians and so they don't they're they don't need the occupation to end it's like everything so that's also undermines like when you talk about like a peace process or proposals or anything I'm like it's more the ball is in their court in this way it's like they have everything is working in their favor like

they have no incentive to really change that to really change the way they're acting yeah I feel like another sort of understated part out of the utility that Israel gets out of Palestinians is it's a useful comparison point for them which is to say they have an entire group of people that they can define who is white by by just virtue of them not being Palestinian and you know one of the more underlook aspects of Israel and I feel like it's been discussed less because it's you know it just so all right and I feel like people are trying to make the distinction between you know pluralist Israel pluralist liberal Israel versus

the alt-right even though it's the same governing principles of an ethno-state they are terrified of being outbred oh yeah yeah could you imagine any fucking country saying that like keeping track of how many like brown babies there are and freaking the fuck out just so openly yeah and you know because you know there really aren't a whole bunch of Jews in the world there are a lot but not a whole bunch and you you could sort of like don't you don't need to you know what what is a Jew is a whole other question is it an ethnic identity is a religious identity but the fact is for the purpose of Israel it just is white

in that context so I think for the future it's just anyone who comes there is going to be Jewish they're their term for white in their world whether they you know read the Torah or their their mom was Jewish all these other old rules that they're gonna throw out and it's not that it's getting more inclusive it's just that they need to keep pace with what they see as a rising demographic threat it's like America you know how many of these alt-right losers how many of them are like you know Croatian or something it's like do you think you were white 80 years ago no they just had to expand the definition and now you are you you

are what is white or not where it was like it was like a Viking and then like what the fuck is the word for that the people who did the fucking crusades Jesus I forgot the word for crusades yeah they like they're like I want you to remember your history and it was like these four like figures that were just like had no nothing to fuck to do with each other but I guess they decided they were all white there was like yeah yeah yeah oh yeah I did see that one I did see that one I'll find it I'll send it to you but that's basically I mean and I will also find this and send it to you because it's important it was somebody it was

somebody speaking on why he thinks apartheid doesn't apply to Palestine which like I would say what the situation is apartheid but like the interesting points that he had though were like basically the way he because Zionism was there before the Holocaust right he was saying how you know the vision that Herzl and the original fucking racist as Zionists had was like we're going to have our pure white like European Jewish state like he's like okay I'm not being treated as a white man in Europe like I'm Jewish but I still his issue with that was like I'm just as sophisticated as the whites like that

was basically it he was like so the original view of Zionism did not fucking want Ethiopian Jews like that was not even a concept to them like they didn't want all these kind of other Jewish people in but the reality the way he put it was basically be there were a lot less European Jews after the Holocaust with like this awful brute reality of it and so he's like so that's when they needed to expand the definition and take in sort of like these other Jewish people that would know like Mizrahi and Sephardim and all these other kinds of and like Ethiopian Jews and now a second-generation converts like if you

convert to Judaism you're not like we were just talking about this today too if you convert to Judaism you're not welcome but if your if your parents converted and you were born a Jew then you can come in and that's not always like the traditional example so they've kind of expanded it that way I have I met someone he was a he was a white guy from Australia but his grandfather was Jewish and according to him he like never practiced or anything but he went like this guy when he realized he wanted to like do work in Palestine he went to a rabbi and he gave him like this story about his grandpa and he said he was

saying that this didn't actually happen about his grandpa like being buried in Orthodox cemetery and all this and then now he got this visa it's basically like the tribe before you buy visa where it's like you get this visa that you can come in to Israel for like maybe two years or something like that to see if you want to be an Israeli citizen and the fact that they're even doing that it's just like they want they do they don't they want to outnumber us so badly and the fact that it Palestinians the Palestinian citizens of Israel they can't like marry a Palestinian in the West Bank and give them Israeli citizenship they can't

marry someone in Gaza and give them and give them Israeli citizenship so they don't want that population to increase and I think also what you were saying about about like so trying to set it up like it's white and like that's what you will be subjected to I think the weird thing is because Palestinian citizens of Israel like in some ways they have like slightly more like like they have more legal protections or however you want to put it obviously still marginalized as fuck obviously still like oppressed as hell because they're Palestinian but it was I think it's really important to look at when they

were doing those protests like what were the counter-processors saying the proud the counter-protesters were saying why don't you go to Gaza what does that mean it's know your place it's you could be going through a lot worse it's a fucking threat it's a threat it's saying that like oh you guys are look you're living like they're they're like holding it over your head like how you you're living in the Hifa you're living in Yefa like would you prefer to be living in the open-air prison I don't fucking think so and I think that is also a really important thing it's I think to keep it's to try to keep the

Palestinian population the ones who have like those early passports and citizenship to try to keep them in line too and I think in like in general it's like oh well look at us we are so civilized and nice and look at the hell they're in like trying to they like they want to paint that sort of picture like oh well it could be worse you know yeah all I think good certainly back to sort of like the definition of Jewish identity I mean it just all all fascism is you're yearning for a past that never existed yeah oh yeah and the the idea of like this unified Jewish people is hilarious it's hilarious I think like

like you said like Herzl's initial idea was for like a white Jewish state and then alright well I guess we need these people that we don't like to create our ethno-state dream but it's like even among white Jews you know at that time there was this huge divide and you still see some of it I mean you know the term the slur kike yeah it was invented by German Jews to describe Russian Jews who they saw it's like I actually didn't know the day they just you know to look at them as like the embarrassing rednecks of European Jews I mean definitely like the idea that if there were more European Jews they would have welcomed in

Ethiopian Jews is just like not I mean there's still absolutely not Ethiopian Jews were getting they were still getting like fucking sterilized they were still going through all the shit the fact that they kidnapped Yemeni Jewish babies like they weren't united in that way like they wanted it to be because they needed the numbers but I mean okay have you ever heard of a book called the lemon tree no I haven't I bring it up because it was basically a journalist like this professor he was going and he was interviewing a Bulgarian Jewish family who after the Holocaust moved to to what's now known as

Israel and they were like living in this Palestinians house and they were also interviewing the Palestinians who lived in that house and were ethnically cleansed out and it was this really weird thing they were like interviewing the girl who grew up in that house that belonged to the Palestinian family and the Palestinian man but the weirdest fucking thing was like this little this girl like when she was young she was saying how bewildered she was when she like even as a kid when she got to Israel because she was hearing slurs being thrown out against like the Mizrahi Jewish people and so far did you and she

was saying that they gave us this like they painted us this image like even in schools and things where they were like this is the strong Jewish Israeli and I mean I think you know a little bit about how they see the ass producer like oh look they're weak that it is they kind of deserve their oppression versus the Israeli Jew but the thing that she said that always that stood out to be years after I read it was she was like the way they drew was like with fucking blonde hair and blue eyes like that's just so insane to think about when you can't like you look at these people like a lot of them that survived the Holocaust but like

their idea of the ideal Jewish man was like he is strong he is fit he works on the land and like look at him he has like this blonde hair and his blue eyes like this is like a pure like Ashkenazi image and it's like part of that racism that obviously still persists till today yeah that the whole I mean Ellie Valley his diaspora boy comic is so good I love it yeah that was great that it's great I mean that whole dichotomy that the ultrasound it's created so funny because it's like what do you do what do you think Jared Kushner is isn't he like every nasty stereotype of like a diaspora Jew doesn't care about Israel

it's just you know like all fascism it just makes no sense but it's it doesn't really funny it's so weird because it's like it fucking sucks because it's like you look at all these things they say and you want to laugh at how ridiculous it is but it's like holy shit people believe it and it has like this kind of yeah real effect on us on the ground but you still is just like the arguments they have are just like bizarre I think I always get frustrated that that line they throw out where it's like no matter what sort of like fucking atrocity has happened against Palestinians they're like okay well does Israel have a right

to exist like so you're saying it doesn't I was like what what fucking other country even uses that logic like where where do we use that anywhere else does anyone say here talk about okay criticize the DPRK but like does North Korea have the right to exist does Syria have the right to exist like they don't use that anywhere else but it's supposed to be for Israel it's like why doesn't it have the right to exist those like no doesn't have the fucking right to exist like people have rights like states don't have fucking rights like you it's it's bizarre it really is and all of it is just like every sort of

logical thing that they try to come up with it really it like the goal of it is just like oh it just comes down to this very crude thing that we're seeing right now with the coverage of the protests of dozens of Palestinians and Gaza where it's basically look at the savage Arabs their terrorists and look at those are these they they just want to live they love life Palestinians don't love life they just throw their kids out and whatever and that's basic that's like I think that's the thing about right now is that they have to sort of show that naked truth of it I think that's the difference like the people who are

coming out and saying like oh I support Israel to support massacres or whatever but I think we are seeing more people catching on at least I hope so I think the code I think it looks different I don't know like it's I'm not even like old or nothing like I'm 21 but I still feel like there's a huge difference in the way people talk about it now versus the way they talked about it when I was a kid so I think that's always yeah I'm always you know faulty on how I told like I feel like our own memories could be faulty sometimes but my underlying fear is that I did see a lot of critical of Israel talk in 2006 and 2007 not I will

say I do not remember it being as pointed and prevalent as now because the Internet wasn't quite what it was now but I do sometimes have a fear that Westerners and Americans in particular they are more prone to sort of bring this up when there is a Republican president they point to you support this and they don't I don't know if they're quite ready to make the step of going our government supports this independent of whose president but you know I hope I'm wrong about that I hope that people are taking a deeper look at it I get pessimistic about this stuff sometimes because I think it's very culturally

difficult for Americans to take this on I think there's a lot of resistance from us thinking like that we even when we criticize things we do we sort of believe our own mythology a lot mythology is a benevolent people but I don't know I again I really hope I'm wrong the weird thing is it's that I don't know some like there are days where I have or it feels like it's just looks like kind of hopeless I don't know like if you were just like chilling on a lot of know if you notice the difference when you're not on the internet it's just like okay yeah like especially like looking at the the

protests that we went to I don't know what we like I was in the West Bank I'm here in Ramallah we tried to do that March to Columbia we didn't make it before we got a bunch of fucking tear gas thrown at us and it's like that was kind of a way where it's like okay they're not gonna let us they won't even let a protest happen and if that day was really frustrating because it just felt like not enough was happening but at the same time though I think I do think that some of the numbers are changing in our favor like I especially like I think that one of the demographics look at is like young American Jews I

definitely they're nowhere near as like hardcore Zionists as their parents and grandparents were and that's always a really good thing to look at I do I do think it's making some headway like I know there was like and the thing is about 2014 and stuff is for example like a lot of the people I talked to now who are fully pro-Palestine like some of them tell me that they were Zionists before 2014 and that they don't even identify as that so I it's weird to think that like Israel goes to these measures to try to like crush Gaza but it just ends up like exposing who they are I think to more people and I think

also just looking at the people you have to convince like what you were saying about the American Americans like believing their own mythology I think that's why you have to combat American racism at the same time like I don't think you can choose because it's like the reason obviously that so many Americans are gonna cape for the settler colonies because like America's a fucking set like America did what it did like a genocide committed genocide against Native Americans it enslaved people and there's still all these like really horrible racist practices today I think like that's why it has to be the

simultaneous thing is like the more you get the more people you get to see that it's not just Trump and it would have been magical if it was Hillary what have even been magical if it was Bernie it's the more I think that you can make them see to see the truth about about what Israel is it's just you have to force Americans to confront their own racist path to I think it has to be the simultaneous thing yeah because yeah no no no country no oppression is obviously exactly alike there is such a right such a similar dynamic with how whiteness is defined how the utility you know we get out of whether whatever

ethnically cleansed or genocided or subjugated people I was gonna ask you know to give a walkthrough of May 14th but I think people are pretty familiar with it now so I guess sort of in closing I would like to ask you you know in in your best of worlds what does politically what does it look like for Palestinians going forward in like what I want the best of worlds yeah yeah I think what's best for us and what's even kind of like the most realistic it really is is the one state is that I think that's what it has to be like I think to me the conflict cannot be solved without the right of return for

Palestinian refugees because that gets to the core of what they issue in Zionism is Zionism is like what we were talking about has that obsession with the demographic threats and the too many Arabs I think of something I all it was always fun to hear it's like oh how could they be committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza if the population has increased which is bizarre way to measure if you're killing a bunch of people from one group or not but like so going like the reason that they keep making those arguments is because they are obsessed with how many Jewish or these are and how many Palestinians there

are and so and that's also why there's so much pushback against the right of return so I think once once enough buildup happens for that and once it happens it will get right through like the racist logic of Zionism first like the the right of return for Palestinian refugees who had a history here who who had their lives here we need to look at compensation compensation for that's also protected anyways in UN resolution 194 compensation for Palestinian refugees because a lot of their homes don't exist any like a lot of homes don't exist anymore a lot of villages don't exist anymore so how does that

look like how do we try to compensate people for this I think this this is really nonprofit is over it and they're working with the deal human right resources like all these groups have already been sort of mapping out areas in Palestine to build new villages and new cities in to welcome in new Palestinians so right of return is just such a huge thing and then just having like the basis of the state not be not be Zionism not be this kind of ideology it has to be something that will make it so that it's possible for both these people to like live in equality to have that sort of protection not be based on

your ethnicity or on your religious group it really is just like the one state preferably secular like democratic both like all like the people who are now like Israelis Palestinians all living in this one place and you know obviously it would be minus like these checkpoints minus these this wall there wouldn't be a need for that and that's the reason there's and they see a need for that now is because of Zionism so I just think that has to be challenged and that's really that's really the way forward is just pushing forward for this idea that you can't keep having you can't keep having this entity that's

based on this really on this kind of ideology that this unsustainable military like militarized like enforcement of that either I think that's really what it is like so many of us talk about the one state I think anybody who's still talk about the two state is full of shit which is why like when these politicians still talk about it they're just they're full of it like where when they're still talking about like I just never talk about maybe a Buddhist being being the capital of like a Palestinian state there's never gonna be a Palestinian state like that's separate from the Israeli state so yeah

I think for me it really is that like that's why the I'm really passionate about the right of return especially because it's it that's the justice that's how justice is served out could you talk a look I this is something I've always been very interested in the sort of debate between the one state and two state and I you know I think my contribution really doesn't really matter less who gives a shit what I want kind of but I have always kind of thought like yeah one state would be the way to go and you just couldn't have in Israel that exists as an ethno state there is one state but could you just go

through some of the reasoning behind not wanting a second state yeah it's weird I think the reason part of why I have the perspective I do is because I pretty much grew up completely after the Oslo Accords and I grew up with the failure of the Oslo Accords I grew up with seeing like they out of the like the you know the Palestinian Authority was supposed to be fucking temporary I think it was supposed to last like five and now it's been like 25 years and seeing what a fucking nightmare it is no no Palestinians are like Palestinians are not fucking happy with our best they're not happy with this this like squazz I

government that like is supposed to be in charge of education and healthcare or whatever but has no actual say in security we have no borders we have no anything so I just remember like even God like I once I did this competition for like Middle Eastern peace and shit and everybody thought it was so fucking weird that I wrote about a one state this was like maybe five years ago and they were like oh don't you want a state and I was like I mean it's not even I want like justice like it was always bizarre to me because the thing about the two state that never made sense to me personally is because it seemed to be

rewarding that kind of ethnic cleansing and the injustices I don't understand how you're supposed to be and right next door to a state that says you and your people don't exist and if they do their terrorists and we need to eliminate them I don't see how that was supposed to be feasible for us ever like that's why that part of it never made sense to me I never made sense to me like I know at the beginning they were talking about like letting in Palestinian refugees in a two-state framework but it never happened and I think it never happened for a reason is because they just can't they Zionism can't handle that even if it's

in a state right next to it and I think they've also like the biggest thing that kind of seemed clear to me for years now is it's a de facto one state anyways it's just fucking over us like like I'm here in the middle like the whole concept of like area A area B area C it's like a bunch of us don't like a bunch of Palestinians here don't even know if they're an area A area B area C because it doesn't fucking matter like I can be an area A like I was an area A which is supposed to be just the PA and not Israel and I still see like a 13 year old boy getting like fucking strip searched by Israeli soldiers like what

the fuck does it mean to be an area A when Israeli soldiers can go wherever the fuck they please anyways so it's just like it's a one-state reality that's the biggest thing and it's just not like I don't see how we were ever supposed to live right next to supposedly like this ideology that was doesn't want to stick especially with the fucking settlements the thing the weirdest thing to me about seeing people still talk about the two-state is that like they know they never really talked about what we were supposed to do about the settlements I was like were you guys actually do you actually think you're

gonna evacuate out 600,000 settlers because I don't see any talk about that I see a lot of condemnation about what Palestinians do I don't see I see only vague shit about how the settlements are illegal but nothing about what to actually do about them so it's like they're already here like they already live here we already subjected to this it's just like the difference is that it's a one-state that's not in our favor so it's much easier to do that than to try to do this two-state thing that's not even feasible anyways yeah it always seemed to me like you know hey you know the PA that sort of corrupt gray market

operating Israeli proxy what if it was bigger okay I think it's technically supposed to be like illegal here to fucking criticize our best but like if you wanted to arrest everybody in the West Bank who hated our best like it would take a while so like I don't know it was always and again it's like the thing to me about the right of return I was like okay so are we just saying oh okay you did ethnically cleanse the land but you can keep it and it's also just ignoring how much Israel has always ignored partition plans anyway like the original UN partition plans that gave them like

more of the land even though they were let like in terms of population they were like 30% or something like that it's they never listened to that anyways like they were like okay whatever these are our partition plans and then they went and I think we cleanse people out of the areas that were never in their partition plan anyways like this isn't anything that's never given a shit about that it's it's like that's the part of Zionism that looks exactly fucking like manifest destiny to me they see it all the land as theirs like logically how are you supposed to counter that if you still allow if you still like don't do

anything about what they did if you still allow them to kind of get away with that in that way it's like oh you took over that land by force and you killed all these civilians and you did all this stuff like that's fine like it's not like you have to you can't keep doing this like weird reform shit you have to tackle this stuff at the source yeah it's that is yeah that's the other weird part of it too it's like you're right next to the ethno state that is ethically cleansing not just give them a look just give them they can have the amount of ethno state they have now they're not gonna do anything weird

don't worry it's like why would we ever trust that they never listen to that and it's the entire premise of it is bizarre is because it really is it's like oh I guess Palestine like they'll like begrudging they couldn't get away with saying that Palestinians don't exist they were like okay you exist but be grateful with these crumbs like that's the thing with the whole like peace processing like the whole two states like they want to give us these like fucking banta stands that are have no sovereignty and it never made sense because it's like when I like I'm not allowed in the Tel Aviv airport I have

to come in through Jordan like when I come in through Jordan it's not Palestinians who are stamping my passport or looking at what I am or asking me what I'm doing or anything like that this is really anyways so it's like they wanted us to be satisfied I don't know like the metaphor I always use it's like if somebody broken to your fucking house and they were like oh what you don't want to live in the like you know I'll live in this half of the house you want to live in the other half of the house like oh are you you're being really unreasonable for saying that like this is a problem like that's

pretty much all of what Israel has done to us and they want us to be like oh yes that's fine it's like it no it's not it's not realistic especially since you guys have sucked so fucking badly at getting rid of us like they're so freaked out that's the thing it's like they ethnic would console these people out yeah and they did all these really awful things but it's like they're so upset because the especially if you look at Jerusalem they the Jerusalem 2020 plan was like okay we want Palestinians to be at like less than 20 what was their goal from the fucking 70s was like 25% we're 40% and now and that's after they

demolished a bunch of people's homes that's after they take people's ID cards another thing they were doing is they were trying to get people to spy for Israel and saying like oh if you spy for us we'll let you live in Jerusalem like for example like a woman from the West Bank married someone from Jerusalem and they deported her because to the West Bank they were like okay well you don't want to spy for us you can't live with your husband and kids like after all and that's like a common thing like after all these home demolishments all that we're like Palestinians still make up 40% of Jerusalem and the fact that we're

our numbers like if you look at all not even looking at Palestinian refugees that live outside it's like Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza and like the 20% that make up Israel now it free it pisses them off so much it pisses look good off so fucking much and not even just look good it pisses off like really just Israel as the like as the entity it's like what the fuck like they were supposed to be way less of you by now like you fuckers breathe like rabbits like I don't know like you know all the shit they say about us so it's like you've already sucked so bad it's like you have you act like you can keep

this up forever when you can't and that was another thing in the video I'm gonna send to you about the guy who said that you know in South Africa white people depended on black labor and they were the minority well there's more of Israelis and the whole idea about whether they depend on their labor or why they expanded to just to have Zionism include like non-European Jews it like that was the kind of thing he said in the videos is that like the logical conclusion is to try to get rid of us all but they are going to fail like I don't think they can pull it off they want to they wish they could like

literally make us disappear but they just they fucking sucked at it like there's a reality there's a lot of us motherfucker and that's just that's why that's why I really think like the one state is the future I'm going to see in my lifetime like I believe that yeah I I hope so too well Ron thank you so much that was that was great oh thank you thank you so much thanks for having me oh