Chapo Trap House - UNLOCKED: The Sumud Flotilla Interview (feat. Zue Jernstedt)

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

Zue Jernstedt joins us live from the Global Sumud Flotilla to talk to us about delivering aid to those in Gaza and weathering attacks from Israel.

All right. Hello, everybody. It's Will here, and I'm coming at you with a bonus joppa today. And joining me on the call is someone, much like Wiley Odysseus, who's calling in from the middle of the Mediterranean. Right now I'm speaking with Zhu Jernstit, who is a volunteer on the Global Samud Flotilla heading to Gaza right now. Zoo, welcome. Thanks for having me. Zoo, I want to get into just every step of this journey on your Odyssey heading to Gaza right now. Could you just tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, where you're from, and how you came to join this Slotilla? Actually, a member of About Face, Veterans Against the War. I'm a former army soldier, and I served in Afghanistan.

So I joined with the Flotilla after I had been in Palestine last year doing protective presence. Once I saw what was happening on the ground in Palestine in the West Bank, I absolutely knew that I wanted to do something to help in Gaza. and this was the first opportunity we've really had to do, like, actually bring food to someone. Could you tell me a little bit about the vessel that you're on now? Who are your shipmates? And what are the conditions like for you right now? So I am on a 14-meter sailboat. We are considered the U.S. veterans boat, the O'ILA.

I'm on the boat with some other Americans, and we have a few internationals with us. Right now, the water is pretty decent. We just had to start motoring, though, because we can't sail through the night. Because the last time we tried to sail through the night, they bombed our sails. Well, I want to get into some of the attacks that you've had to weather so far. But, like, where did this journey begin? Like, how did you go from America? Where did you first board this vessel?

And, like, how was this flotilla organized? So I got on in Barcelona. I've actually been on the boat 30 days now, which is almost twice as long as the journey was supposed to be. I got brought on by my Palestinian-American friend that I worked with in Palestine with the International Solidarity Movement. But overall, the Global Samud Flotilla is a bunch of the other Flotilla people kind of mashed in together. It's not really, it's not like a military organization from a military background to me that seems very unorganized. But it's a bunch of humanitarian just coming together and doing the best they can do. So we ended up getting our own veterans boat, which has been a blessing.

And basically, we have some protocols that come down from the top, but most of it is, like, us making the stuff up that we do. I apologize for the spotty audio connection, but you can imagine the pressures on the internet calling in from the Mediterranean right now. But, Zoo, so you joined in Barcelona. Like, what was the first leg of the journey like? and, like, how close to you are you to Gaza right now? Yeah, I joined in Barcelona, and our first night out to sea was a horrible storm, and it was also my first night on a boat ever. So that was very exciting.

And now I'm under 200 nautical miles away from Gaza. So you mentioned before that the flotilla has been attacked several times, because you could you talk to me about the circumstances of those attacks, like what happened, and what were the nature of these attacks on you? So our first two attacks happened in Tunisia while our boats were docked, and two nights in a row, we had ordinance dropped on the boats. They looked to be some sort of smoke grenade covered in an accelerant. One of them went off, another didn't. Then after that, I think about four nights ago, our boat got struck with an ordinance that did not go off, hit one of our members, and bounced into the sea.

but then 13 more attacks came where 11 of them exploded, taking out a couple of two sails, entering one person, and leaving behind a piece of ordinance that was actually debt-pored wrapped together that we ended up having to throw into the ocean. Just watching and following this lotelic here from the United States, some news of note recently was that the navies of Italy and Spain have provided an escort to possibly rescue you should you need that service rendered to you. What can you tell us about the participation of European navies in joining this convoy and this flotilla?

Lipservice, the Italian boat is turning back. It is no longer going to be with us. The Spanish vessel is the only one that's going to be continuing, but they will be offering no, like, material support. If we're attacked, they won't help us. It's basically just lip service. Another thing that I've noticed following the lotilla is the market change in sort of how the Israelis and their media spokespeople refer to this

lotilla. Of the original ones, it was called the sort of selfie crews or they sort of focused on what they wanted to portray as kind of like a vain social media stunt. But in recent days, they have begun calling this the terrorist flotilla or the Hamas lotilla. I'm sure everyone on board is aware of this. What do you make of this market shift in rhetoric as it regards this humanitarian effort on your part? They're marketing consent to kill us.

They are absolutely trying to get it so that when they hit us with some sort of artillery or anything, that they will be able to say that we are terrorists, that we deserved it, that we weren't humanitarians, that we weren't peaceful. The selfie, you know, slander was fine. We were all fine with that because we knew they wouldn't harm us then. but with the new things they're saying, we do know that they're lining it up so they can harm us and try to get away with it.

Now, I don't think they'll be able to get away with it anymore with how the world has changed, but it's absolutely the playbook they've done again and again. Like, we don't have, you know, there's no tunnels under our boat, fish aren't Hamas. Like, we have shown what we have on our boats. They are just doing this to try to be able to harm us and get away with it.

Well, you mentioned what you have on your boats. So what currently, what sort of supplies do you have on your vessel that you're hoping to distribute in Gaza right now? And medical supplies, our food includes baby formula, powdered milk, lentils, instant chicken noodles. And then we have gauze. We have saline solution. Like, we have a bunch of staples. We have crackers. We have a bunch of staples.

Now, we don't have enough for every single person trapped in Gaza, obviously. we have, you know, a symbolic amount of aid, it will require so much more aid. But the goal is to bring this aid and then to have a humanitarian corridor open the way we came in and to bring more aid. In terms of like, yeah, there's a strategy that flotilla opening up this humanitarian corridor. Like, what is the strategy you're pursuing to try to make that possible? So the goal is to be able to have ships go, open the humanitarian corridor, and then bring in ships with larger carrying capacity that aren't sailboes. to have more aid come into the people.

I mean, obviously this is an international mission of conscience, but like what you're describing cannot be done without the help of nation states. Like, who are you looking for to engage in this effort? And what's it going to take for, like, let's say, countries in the EU or neighboring countries in the Middle East? What's it going to take for, in your opinion, for them to open up this humanitarian corridor

and get this aid into Gaza? Pretty clear that there's people from 45 nations, on this flotilla and we are all betting our lives on it. And it's a little bit of a game of chicken right now to see if they'll allow us in for the aid or if they won't and what they will do to citizens of these different nations and then what our nations will respond with. You know, we've been watching the genocide of Palestinians for over two years now and the world hasn't seemed to be woken up by it. But the hope is that once people people see folks just like them doing things that they probably want to do, like feed-starving

children, that they will also start bothering their governments and saying, hey, this isn't right. Or, you know, God forbid, one of us gets harmed and our country has to retaliate and say, like, no, you cannot treat one of our citizens like this. And people wake up like, oh, yes, these people are exactly what everyone has been saying about them. I mean, you mentioned that everyone involved in this is very much putting their lives on the line for this. Like, what, like, how, is that something that's spoken about on board the ship? Like, as part of this strategy of, like, putting your lives, putting your bodies in harm's way to deliver this aid, to heighten the pressure on Western governments to do something to protect their

own citizens. Like, how, like, how aware are you of this? And is this spoken about on board the ship? I mean, I'm on the veterans boat. So we're pretty much all laughing. Like, we were willing to die for empire right like we're idiots we were willing to die for the united states of america we are dumb um yeah realized what the empire was and that we didn't want to do it so for us like this is not that bad like we're actually standing for something that matters and doing something that matters to humanity um so i think the veteran boat is is not a good example of like the entirety of the flotilla i do know when we got attacked the other night some of the other boats you know people were having like come to Jesus moments and you know really realizing that like I could die from this you know

like when their boat got hit with like a flaming ball of fire it really hit them like oh this you know this could be death meanwhile we were on the veterans boat like diving every time a drone came by and just recording everything being like oh man feel alive right now so I think it's it's very different for people on the flotilla depending on their background so everyone on board the the veterans boat with you is obviously probably a little bit more familiar with life and death situations than perhaps some of your comrades. But like you mentioned just a second ago that like this is a group of people who volunteered to serve the U.S. Empire and then at some point had a sort of road to Damascus moment and they had their perspective changed by their experiences serving in the U.S.

military. Could you talk about like was there a moment for you that clarified things for you or What began this shift in consciousness and perspective to go from being a serving U.S. soldier to someone putting their life on the line for people in Gaza? I absolutely, yes, had had some, a couple moments when I was in Afghanistan. So I got deployed to Afghanistan in 2009. I was 21 years old. And I very much, you know, was fed lie that like this was to defend our country. My stepfather served in 9-11 as a firefighter. So I was very entrenched in this. Like, yes, this is the right thing. then I got there and I got put in a female embedment team and was running intelligence from females there, meaning I'm sitting in their homes, I'm drinking tea with them, I'm playing with

their children and I'm realizing these are my people. I have more in common with these people than the people who sent me here. And like these people are just trying to live. They're just trying to feed their kids and, you know, have a basic simple life. They're not trying for anything crazy just like I am. And then everyone else who's sending us here telling us that like these are evil people, you know, these must be the evil people because these people, these Afghan people, are just trying to live and like not having a great life because we are there. The other thing is I was stationed in the Khyber Pass, right? which is a very famous area.

I was at Torquemase. Very famous pass, yeah. Putting books on it, because I got station there, so I got some books on it and started reading. And I realized it's where the Russians fell. I was on an old Russian base. It was where the Russians fell. It's where the British fell.

It's where empires go to die. So I was just like standing, you know, on a castle turret on my base and just looking out and being like, man, are we the empire? And it like kind of clicked that like we were an empire. and we were the bad guys. Obviously, you say you're about like, you're getting, you're approaching very close to Gaza right now.

And on the previous Lottillas, at some point, the flotilla was interdicted by Israeli forces and the people on board were taking it into custody before eventually being released. What have you been told to expect about when you possibly cross that red line, that, I don't know, that zero hour or whatever, and possibly being taken into custody? by occupation forces. What have you been told to expect?

Approaching that zero hour. We run drills every single day, getting into positions so that we can show people, like, we'll show the soldiers, like our hands and that we're nonviolent. We prep, you know, to be able to sit for long amounts of time and not move. We understand that they're going to come in violently, that they're going to question us. And we've all been instructed to just ask for our lawyers. We've been told we will be detained, and then we can either choose to sign a paper that lets us leave, and they'll ship us out, or we can refuse to be deported and have to go see a judge. Now, I know my entire boat, no one's signing, because they give you the papers in Hebrew, for one, and I can't read Hebrew. None of us can read Hebrew, and we don't know

what it says. Oftentimes, it says, like, I, you know, I came illegally into Israel, which we're going to be kidnapped from international waters and brought into Israel. I'm not signing a paper saying I broke into a country. And the other thing is, I'm not in my, none of us are doing anything wrong. We're following the Geneva Convention. We're following international humanitarian law. We've been told what other people have gone through. But none of that I think really deters any of us. We are all staying. We are all hungry striking. It's a very, like, they've been very honest and open about, you know, what is expected and, like, we have all the past examples to look at. Let's say if things don't go according to plan, and let's say through some miracle,

this Latila is able to make landfall on the shores of Gaza. I mean, do you conceive of what you will do in that eventuality? Like, if this is actually successful and you're able to make landfall in Gaza, like, have you considered that? And if so, like, what are you thinking you will do when you get there? Yeah, we have a plan. The plan has never been for us to step foot in Gaza. Like, our goal is not to go to Gaza. Our plan is to get aid into Gaza.

So we will be handing off our aid directly to Palestinians. And that has been the big thing of, you know, Israel asked us to drop off the aid in Cyprus or drop it off at one of their ports and they'd get it to them, which we absolutely do not believe. But our plan is we have a plan. and thinks we just think this is a martyr mission. We don't. Like, there's so many of us that we're like, maybe some of us will get to shore. We are unsure of the outcome at this point.

We had to try. So the plan is to offload the aid to the Palestinian people, but not to get off in Tucson. Currently, how many boats are a part of this flotilla? That is an interesting question. So we have been having some mechanical problems. We had 50 boats. I'm pretty sure we're at like 47 right now. because of mechanical problems.

Most of these boats are very old. The majority of them are sailboats, and they're like recreational old sailboats. So they're not really meant for transversing, you know, three oceans during a not great sailing time. So we're doing our best, but, you know, the boats are a little ragged. Now, the previous Littlilla is like I did not have the numbers.

So there, I would imagine, fairly easy for the occupation forces to interdict, is greatly increasing the number of boats? Is this part of the strategy to make it much more difficult for this to be stopped? Yes, absolutely. Like, you know, we could have bought one big boat and put everyone on it. But obviously, that's a lot easier for them to just stop, like, the one big boat. So instead, we have a bunch of small boats and we're going to see, you know,

if we can just overwhelm them, not by, like, violent force, but by humanitarian force and see if, you know, we can trip them up enough that some people can get through and get their aid in. So this journey has, it's been a long journey. I guess I'm just curious, what are your days like aboard the veterans boat? Like, who are your, who are your shipmates? And like, how do you, how do you feel the time as you, as you approach this zero hour? I mean, we're actually, we're pretty busy on the boat. Sailing takes a lot. We have 14 people on our boat. So that's a lot of people on a 14 meter sailboat that's that's one person per meter um we have we cook three meals a day um i know we're different from the other ships where we have a we have a schedule where we cook three meals a

day um like that is mandatory that we are all cooking for each other and taking care of each other because as much as this is like solidarity with palestine this is also a solid solidarity mission together and taking care of each other on this very difficult thing we have night watch um where we have three shifts, four hours, four hours and three hours. And then the other time, which is not much time, we're trying to do our laundry. We have a 20-minute cleanup we do every day to make sure that the boat's not getting super messy. And the other time we have a guitar, people read their books or a lot of napping because we've been up all night. Yeah.

Zoo, if someone's listening to this and I don't know if they're a member of the U.S. government or someone in a position of authority, what do you want them to know about what you're doing? And what are you asking from, let's say, are elected representatives in D.C.? Are you asking anything from them at all just to get out of the way? Or is there something that you'd like to communicate to, let's say, people in power in this country about what you're doing and why you're doing it? I'm doing their job because they're not humans.

they don't represent the people of the United States. They don't stand for us. The people of the United States don't stand for genocide and that they better back us up and they better protect us because if they pick Israel over U.S. veterans who serve this country, they're traitors. And this whole thing is they should be doing this.

We're asking them not only to support us, but to send aid themselves and to stop sending bombs to kill children. It's such a simple, like I feel like you and me, if we're just civil people, we're like, yes, we don't want to bomb children. We don't want to see children with their intestines spilling out. I don't want my tax dollars to pay for that. I have a hard time grasping how evil you must be to think this is okay. And that is what our politicians are saying when they're not stepping in. And as a corollary to that, what would be, if you could,

if you could say something to the people of Gaza, what would you want them to know about what you're doing and just the prospects of of you rendering aid to them. We see you that we're coming, that the only way they're going to stop us is by physical force, that the people of the world do not agree with what's happening and that we will keep coming. If they stop us, there's already eight more boats in the water right now coming behind us. We won't stop until this ends. Zoo, I mean, speaking for someone who's been following this in the United States, and I think

I speak for a lot of people, a lot of people who live. listen to the show. They've spent two years watching this genocide unfold in sort of mute horror and they have tried to protest. They have tried to use what voice they have left to them in this country to affect change. And they feel like nothing works, that people in power are deaf to the pleas of humanity, that they are actively taking part in this genocide and they're totally fine with it. What do you say to people like who just, who feel powerless? And how do you find the bravery to do what you do, to like to stand up and put your life on the line for something this important? Probably autism, to be honest. Okay, good. Someone who like I think things should be

right and I don't understand when they're not right. And like I said, I went to Afghanistan. I put my life on the line for nothing. So to me, this isn't as big of a choice. I've done a lot of dumber things. This is actually something that could help people. For people in the states who are protesting, I would say, study Italy maybe. Yeah, just take a peek overseas and see what works other places in other countries. Because obviously what we're doing isn't working and our representatives are not listening to us. So yeah, look other places. Learn from people that aren't American and see what works. I think America's quite embarrassing when it comes to that. When you look over at France and you're like, damn, the French are doing it better than us.

It's really time to show our politicians that we're serious, that we want our money to stay in our country, that our tax dollars should go to our people and that we should stop killing children. Zhu, for anyone listening right now who wants to support this, Latila, who wants to support you, who wants to support this cause, what can they do just? just from home. Is there anything that they can do to help bring attention to this or to help support this Flotilla? I mean, obviously you can post about it. If you go to Vets About Face, we have slides with everyone who's on our boat with all of our representatives. If you want to call, that that would help us out. Posting about it, telling your friends about it, talking to anyone in

media about it would be awesome. As far as like monetary support or anything like that, with the flotilla, we are fully funded, but we are asking people to send money directly to people in Gaza. You can send money to them in Gaza. The food is very expensive. They have to buy tents because they're currently being tossed around all the different areas. Don't give to a charity. Give directly to people in Gaza. Well, Zhu, I think we should wrap it up here. The audio connection is getting increasingly tenuous. But I would just like to say, in behalf of myself and our show, we could not more admire what you're doing here. I think you are demonstrating the conscience of the world right now, and you're doing it with humanity and bravery,

and I would just like to express our undying solidarity for what you're doing. And just finally, if anyone listening to this would like to directly get involved and join one of these photillas and be on one of the next boats, is that something you would recommend? And if so, how should they go about doing that? You have sailing experience. If you have communication experience, if you have media experience, if you are a nurse, a medic, a doctor, these are all things that are very much needed and valued. And yes, there's multiple flotillas. There's freedom flotilla. There's thousand matalines.

There's multiple flotillas. If you have these skills that could bring attention or bring safety to the flotilla, absolutely join. There's also international solidarity movement in the West Bank is doing protective presence with people in the. the West Bank who are actively being ethnically cleansed. I went last year. I did three months. I can't recommend it enough for standing in solidarity with the Palestinian people. And we forget about the West Bank, but they're killing them over there. They're pushing them out of their houses over there. Join ISM if you're able-bodied and can take off time from work. Zhu, like I said, the audio is getting increasingly tenuous. But I would just like to say,

thank you so much for your courage and your bravery. And just like I said, displaying the conscience of the world right now. I really appreciate it. And I really thank you for your time. Thanks so much for having me on. Thank you. And I hope we can talk again sometime. Hopefully, when this flotilla is successful or when you're eventually lot out of cost today. Yeah, yeah. I'll let you know how it goes. Okay. Great. We'll be in touch. Thank you. This is Zhu Jernstedt who's coming to us once again live from the Mediterranean Sea as the flotilla approaches Gaza. So once again, thank you. Thank you, Zhu, for your time and for your bravery.