Chapo Trap House - UNLOCKED: Will interviews Amazon Labor Union President Chris Smalls

Episode Date: April 10, 2022

Will talks to president of the Amazon Labor Union Chris Smalls about the successful effort to unionize the JFK8 Amazon fulfillment center on Staten Island. Subscribe today for early access to exclusive interviews! www.patreon.com/chapotraphouse

Okay Joining me now is the man of the hour here in New York and now the rest of the country It's Chris Smalls president of the newly formed Amazon Union Chris. How's it going? Thank you for having me It's going crazy, but it's crazy good for a good reason. Yeah, it's pretty busy. I'd imagine Before I get into like, you know the history of what you've done here I just want to ask like What are the what are the status of negotiations now like with a contract and like where do you in the union stand now as it? Relates like, you know, uh, like Amazon and like getting a contract at the JFK aid facility

Yeah, well as we can expect, you know the company gonna fight this tooth and nail. So We're in the beginning states. We're still trying to get certified officially at the disputes that they're going to raise This coming days. So we're preparing ourselves for that You know, it's gonna be a little uphill legal battle to get this all sorted out But after this legal battle is over and we're officially certified We're gonna continue walking to bubblegum at the same time and and propose our contract right away We're not gonna hesitate or wait. We don't want this to be a long dragged out process. So I'm sorry long drawn out process So we're gonna start right away with that. All right. Well, I mean, so like like what brought you to this moment

I mean, you started out working there. Um, like what was the light that went off in your head that thought like, hey Maybe we could use a union here at this Amazon facility. Oh, yeah Definitely my journey started two years ago when I let her walk out outside of the same facility that we just unionized I did a you know, I let her walk out over COVID-19. I was fired publicly two hours later Then Jeff Bezos himself signed off on a smear campaign buried by his federal council Calling me not smart or articulate. I ironically make me the face of the unionized network and You know, when I continue to advocate for workers whites for about a year and a half We started our campaign here in Staten Island. We want to bring it back home and

And we started unionized and organizing and we realized that we had something special Where we can get it done and it was working for us, you know, brand new worker led Independent union with no major backing No establishment behind us. We we seen that this resonated with the Amazon workers more so so I mean a lot has been written about, you know, what the conditions are like in these Amazon facilities I was wondering if you could just describe for us like what is a typical day at the JFK eight facility? Oh, wow Well, I used to tell my highs. They got a gym membership. They got a kid But these buildings are 14 NFL football fields the size

They're almost about a million and a half to where feet are just under that you're walking around doing 10 to 12 hours of calisthenics and You know, your commute could be two and a half hours that you live depending on where you live in New York City or New Jersey Like myself, your commute was long. So that's not even including your commute. Good days are almost like 16 hour days So the physicality of the job is definitely a huge reason why workers don't last very much long at the company and you know Amazon like you know from like a management level on down to the Like the pickers as they're called in these facilities I mean, they're a company that sort of prides itself on having a high turnover for workers because like they don't they they don't want people feeling like

Complacent or comfortable in any job, right? No. Yeah, that's that's the name of the game higher in fire You know, Amazon is offering to hire a hundred thousand people a hundred fifty thousand people nationwide You know, it seems like it's a good thing to get praised about it You know creating jobs, but they're not really creating jobs more like recycling, you know, they're higher in fire And so that's the reason why you know, this union is important How aware were you and your fellow organizers of the the other union effort that took place in Bessemer, Alabama? That would like that that that lost the vote initially How aware were you of what they were doing in Bessemer and did you were did you try to change anything like?

Why do you think that you guys were successful where Bessemer initially failed? Well, yeah We we paid attention to what they had going down there. We actually drove down there 16 hours down there their first campaign to see and witness what they had on the ground and what we noticed is that They didn't really have too much of a workers committee inside the building the way we do here in Staten Island You know, that was one of their biggest mistakes the first campaign was not really working on that workers committee inside the building Because it's important to have a presence on the inside myself. I was on the outside of the building So I stayed not pretty much slept at the bus stop outside of J.A. for the last 11 months and that helped We had an inside-outside game

We had organizers that were vocal in the building that were wearing the ALU shirts from day one and we were passing them out Inside the building just showing workers that you can't be afraid when you're going up against your employer You got to stay militant or stay together And that also helped, you know as a key part to getting to where we are So you were at the bus stop and you were talking to people who are like coming home from work or arriving at the facility And then you talk about like this a workers committee that's like inside the facility itself There were in the union t-shirts. They're talking to people about forming a union Could you talk a little bit more about like how those workers committees like how that operates?

And like what was the pitch that they were making to workers to like get them on board with something like this? Well, it worked because my lead organizers just like myself Are invested in the company, you know Derrick Palmer our vice president He's a sick here Amazon bed, you know, I opened up three buildings He opened up two or three years himself So he has a larger influence on his co-workers, you know, his co-workers know who he is They see him all the time in the media speaking out about workers, right speaking out about their rights because he's the Amazon worker and that help Um, you know encourage workers to not be afraid anymore because they're like wow Derrick's been here

He's been with Chris for over two years. Derrick used to work directly underneath me and he still hasn't been retaliated against so the retaliation rumors and stuff like that start to dwindle because He's still employed and he's not, you know fired or on a final or on a write-up He's just organizing and Amazon pretty much can't do anything to him because he's in good standing and now What were some of the what were some of the tactics that like Amazon and these consulting firms that they hired to counter this unionization effort? Like how did that work and like what like what do they do to counter the efforts of the working committee inside and outside of the building? I could tell you not it's been millions of dollars Well wasted millions of dollars because they lost what if you know, I could tell you they put these workers into the class and every 20 minutes

Every 20 minutes for the last Several months, you know several months they put them in there every 20 minutes So imagine walking in the work every day and being you know heard it into a classroom and then on top of that You know, you got the union busting signs all over the place You got the the NYPD who arrested us a few times and myself. I got arrested several workers got other workers got arrested not only once but twice and You know once again, they spend in millions of dollars within the online ad Instagram Facebook Consulting groups to stop the ALU

Do you think it like sort of backfired for Amazon who of course like they they try to couch everything in terms of like We're a family here and like a union will will mess up that lovely family dynamic between employer employee and that there were a nice company You know, we have benefits. We're good people You think it backfired them when their workers are seeing like the NYPD arresting someone like you or someone trying to bring pizza to the facility That's exactly what happened, you know, they handed us a gym right there And I actually think that's what that's a turning point in the election when they arrested us outside the building for feeding the workers They knew what we've been doing. We've been doing that since day one. We've been Having barbecues feeding workers every single week

Given workers lunch, you know having these cookouts over the summer so workers knew that we what we were doing until arrest us We're organizing and and I'm giving out food was just ridiculous and that definitely helped You know flip a lot of undecided people Because they seen how ugly the company can be and they said that that right there was turning point for them So you had you had a working committee inside the building and then Amazon brought in their own people also to be inside the building to sort of Suss out like individuals who may be sympathetic to the union or Intimidate or just you know like so to sell the company line Like how did you how did you turn that against them?

Because I mean these people are making three hundred dollars an hour to do this some of them are like How did you identify these people and sort of like organize against them? Yeah, well, we of course we researched every last one of them They they they stick out like a sore thumb because they don't look like workers and they're not from New York So they were easy to spot and Amazon, you know It's easy to spot a millionaire in a warehouse trust me I can tell you that what are they guys are walking around with a Red Sox hat inside the facility or something Well, first of all, if you're walking around with khakis on and some and some nice shoes and some some nice

Thousand dollar jackets on you're actually not an Amazon worker. I can tell you that right now So so, you know, we exposed them and that's what we did. We made like most wanted signs We put their salaries up and put their faces up, you know, y'all watching my Twitter page I always shared, you know information about who they are what they're doing how much money they're making That also helped the workers Point them out as well. They're like, oh, that's a union buster. So we made it fun We even made it like to catch it to catch a Pokemon type game You know, we have told the workers like if you see a union buster, let us know right away

So we can expose them and it also bad by them all gotta catch them all but like I like so like I mean obviously like the the fear that it is being played upon in like any anti-union campaign is the idea that You'll lose your jobs and you'll lose your benefits and for a company like Amazon that's as big as Amazon They can actually afford to give benefits on day one to their workers So like and then a lot of times like the the other job opportunities in in the like the neighborhoods or communities or these facilities are Are genuinely worse than the ones that they have at Amazon So like when you talk to a worker like how do you how do you confront that very real fear about like? I don't want to lose of what little good I do have and to risk something better than than this

Well, yeah, the educational part is the most important part. That's what we did first No, we did we didn't come over there as an established union We came over there as a co-worker or former or our current and we explained to them like we're not making enough money Even though we're getting paid better than competitors because they always compare themselves to Walmart target, you know, et cetera We're not making enough money to live a sustainable lifestyle You know, we're getting on a bus and half of the workers don't even pay to get on the bus because they can't afford it half of the workers are living on government subsidiaries are

Are homeless, you know, this work is living in the shelters that's going to Amazon a trillion dollar company That doesn't make any sense, you know, so the benefits the pay wages are not sustainable Myself I was capped out at $25 an hour and I had a second job So, you know, you cap you out from the time you're our entry level after three and a half years You get no more raises from one of the richest retailers in the world So imagine that somebody that's been in ten years is still getting paid the same amount of money That's somebody that's been in three and a half years So it just doesn't make any sense, you know, and it took away a lot of things that can also help us out financially as well

Like be becoming a shareholder They stopped that as well in 2018 traditionally like I think like what the you know, the company is the way they like a discipline like a workforce is the threat of Moving the factory where people work now. I think we're seeing something interesting now with Amazon and now with Starbucks These these these votes of workers there for the unionized. It's more difficult for companies of that size because their entire business model is based around Being everywhere all the time. They can't just sort of like move just like not have a fulfillment facility in New York City Yeah, so like I mean like did you had to be aware of that? Did you use that to your advantage? Yeah, you know, there's always that fear that oh if you guys unionize they're gonna close the building down

That is a myth. I Amazon has unionized building. They're just not here in America until April 1st No, there's there's several all the builders in Germany. All the builders in Spain are already unionized So they know how to work with unionized facilities number one number two JFK is the main vessel in New York greater area Hands down that facility has 8300 workers that we just unionized That building makes 40 million dollars a day. I don't think they're going anywhere So like okay, you've won the union vote like in like in these contract negotiations

What do you like? What are you asking for? I mean like what's on the table here? What are you hoping to improve in the in the conditions at the JFK a facility and in Amazon in general? Well, we we we guarantee the flight for these things, you know, we don't we don't promise anything But as a union we're gonna fight for $30,000. I want to fight the job security better medical leave option longer breaks better more paid-time all becoming a shareholder a pension a free college for yourself and your children a Shuttle bus service that I help workers commute and I'm just a better quality of life overall You know, we want to improve the working conditions

We want to make sure people get home to their families safe have a sustainable lifestyle where there's not too much over time Working 50 60 hours a week for a little bit of money. That's not going to cut it anymore We want to make sure that everybody's quality of life is improved and then these workers make more money And we're being the essential workers. We still be treated as such. So that's what the union can provide and Amazon can actually We afford that and okay I mean, obviously there's there's still there's still much work to be done But you you've had you've had a victory in this vote and you become something of a public national figure That's the face of this like, you know a growing like like union consciousness in this country

And we're seeing like a knock-on effect of that like I said in Starbucks Like what just what advice do you have for people who are inspired by this victory like just in terms of it? What they can do, but also what they shouldn't do like about like Everyone thinks they can just you know form a union or something But like in terms of like connecting and being a part of the actual workforce and connecting with the workers themselves Like what advice do you have for people who are inspired by this moment? Well, I told everybody, you know, don't just don't just quit your job anymore, you know, that doesn't cut it You got to organize your workplace if you feel like there's some things that need to be changed organized

We were consistent. We never in Brazil you we never stopped even though we took some setbacks We continue to organize every single day Being out there every single day building our relationships up earning the trust of your co-workers. That's very important and being a catalyst for this revolution We want people to support us, you know, if you support us and we win a major contract That's gonna set off the labor movement like no other. I think of what we did We woke the world up now everybody's paying attention and now everybody needs to get involved even with this campaign Even if it's remotely you can always donate our phone bank or volunteer in person if you're in the New York area We accept all of that, you know, we don't even though we're not affiliated with any other establishment

It doesn't mean that we don't stand a solidarity. I see me and you've been following my journey I'm always on the pick-and-line anytime. I have availability our capacity No matter what the movement is about whether social justice whether it's environmental It doesn't matter. I'm on the pick-and-line if you call me the students or nurses or doctors or bus drivers That's what the labor movement should be about all the solidarity And we absolutely need the support of the community to take on Amazon So please continue to support us and donate and get involved. Were there any I mean I know like you were you were victorious in this vote

But were there any mistakes or setbacks that you encountered that you were able to learn from and that you can pass along to people Considering doing something similar. Yeah, absolutely. You know, we had to withdraw so don't you know, don't ever counts, you know overestimate yourself, you know This this time in the campaign where you have your high moments And you have a celebratory moment, but you gotta just stay focused because it could it could change in one day And we've seen that happen We had to withdraw our first petition because we thought that we had over enough more than enough which we did But then we realized that Amazon's inspired a thousand people that was signed up

So that was a learning point for us. And so I had to get my team together Even though the morale was down at the moment. I said, you know what? Let's go back to the basics So stick with your basics stick with what works If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I say that all the time and what works for us Let's was being on the ground or the inside-outside game feeding work is giving out free food giving out free weed giving out free books giving out, you know Money for transportation little things matter details matter In your campaigns and if you

Take care of your co-workers and just care about one another You can take on any company in the world. All right, Chris. I know you're very busy. I'll let you guys have one final question here Oh, what would it look like from from your guy's perspective or the like political leaders in New York and the country? To do something worthwhile or worthy of your support because you know I mean, I know like you've had a back-and-forth with AOC over this and what you know She's she's doing or not doing rather to support you guys like what would real support from political leaders look like to you well, you know, yeah, everybody's been buzzing about this whole AOC thing and um There's no ill will against her. It's just that that she canceled on us and she's trying to like downplay it as if she didn't

You know, that's just unfortunate what she has to do to show up. That's all you're asking You know, we're not asking for too much. We're just telling her to show up. This is a large demographic That she can relate to and there's absolutely people in her district that comes from her district that traveled to Staten Island So I don't know why she's even you know falling to that rabbit hole We just asking every politician is not just her they all didn't support us So we're asking them to support us and we are elected these officials They need to represent the people and they need to show up whenever we asked because we put them in office So, you know going forward this this is a marathon not a sprint

We're going to ask for AOC We're gonna ask for Bernie We're gonna ask for all the progressives in New York or a beyond to show up whenever we call for them And we'll see how that goes and they need to pass the pro act Chris malls the man of the hour Thanks so much your time. Congratulations on the victory and good luck going forward. Thank you so much. Thank you All right, take it easy. Have a good one