Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher - Ep 210 | Board Games in 100 Moves 8,000 Years of Play | Guest: Ian Livingstone

Episode Date: September 28, 2019

This is a golden age for board games. More people are playing games such as Chess, Monopoly, Risk, and Scrabble than ever before! According to market analysts the NPD Group, the global market for physical games grew by 12 percent in 2018—not many global markets are expanding that quickly. Players old and new are discovering the joys of tabletop games, but how did these games, and so many others, come to be invented?  Discover the compelling stories behind the creation of the board games we know and love to play--stories that have touched every aspect of people's lives through the ages. Our journey starts 5,000 years ago and continues right up to the present day. More than 100 games are explored chronologically, from the most ancient to the most modern, allowing you to see how similar types of games relate to each other and revealing the fascinating secrets of origin and lasting appeal BIO: Ian Livingstone is a life-long board games player. He has more than 1,000 games in his collection and has been running his board games group since the mid-1980s. He is the co-creator of the multimillion-selling role-playing gamebooks, Fighting Fantasy, and the author of 15 books within the series. He was also the co-founder of iconic games company Games Workshop. Ian has invented several board games, including Boom Town, Judge Dredd and Legend of Zagor. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

board games, card games, uh, forever. I mean, as a little kid, I mean, I watched my adult family members play card games and board games, and then I was forced into it.

And then you grow into liking it and liking the battle of the board game, whether it's, whether it's, uh, aggravation or, uh, uh, Monopoly or Othello,

or backgammon, which I haven't played in a while, by the way. But, uh, I wanted to talk to Ian Livingston. who has a new book out, board games in 100 moves, 8,000 years of play. Ian, welcome to chewing the fat. How are you today, sir?

I'm great, thank you. Looking forward to my next board game. So, first, what prompted you to look into 8,000 years of play? That is just fascinating. Well, I thought after 8,000 years, it's time somebody told the story. Amen. So I've been in games my whole life. At school, I played lots of games in Monopoly and played chess for the school. Yeah. Came a collector of games, a designer of games.

And my first company was a games company, a company called Games Workshop. We launched Dungeons and Dragons in the UK back in the 1970s. Yeah. A guy gets the inventor became a good friend of mine. and we had the European distribution rights. So I was totally immersed in games. I've got over a thousand ball games at home. I run a games group.

I've been doing it since the 1980s. And I think games kind of help define us of who we are as human beings. And, you know, there's a lot to like about them. Yeah, for sure. Friends or family around the table, having a lot of fun, doing deals, stabbing people in the back and laughing about it

as you renege on the deals, trying to get that edge. It's a battle of wits. And it's just very light-hearted entertainment. And in this digital world in which we find ourselves immersed, it's not to have a bit of physical entertainment as well as digital entertainment. I think the same thing we said for final records and physical books. It's nice to have a bit of a balance there.

It's also a way to actually get to know people. I mean, when you talk about family members, which, you know, I mean, if you were raised with playing games, you know, family members and, you know, Uncle Hank is the guy that cheats and, you know, Aunt Marilyn, she always forgets a rule. And, you know, I mean, we've all lived through that,

but it's also a good way to get to know people if you have, you know, if you have any kind of small party and you don't know the people, you can play a game. And you get pretty familiar with people pretty fast while you play a game. Yeah, their personality really comes out very fast. Yes, it does.

If you're having, in polite conversation, you don't always understand or know what that person is. but if they play a game, the math comes off. So I'm looking through your book, your 8,000 years of play. What did you find that was one of the earliest games that people brought to their living quarters? Well, the earliest known game was came out 5,000 years ago.

It was called Senate. It was a simple race game with abstract pieces. It's pretty boring, actually. But nevertheless, the game of the time, and it was enjoyed by everyone living in the Middle East, particularly Egypt, Houtin Kharmun, was a big fan of the game. And when he passed away, he had four copies interned with him in his tomb, which were found when the tomb was open in the 1900s. So, again, it just shows that games is not a new phenomenon.

It's a part of human culture that's lived with us forever. So I was fascinated to read that a game that I was forced to play because my aunt was in charge of the state library. And so we had to read and we had to know words was the game Scrabble. And I was fascinated to read that that game almost didn't exist, right? I mean, it took a while for that game to actually take off. Yeah, it was invented by this guy called Alfred Butts, who called it Chris Cross Words. And he was an unemployed architect. and he made his own copies

and really struggled to find a market for his game and he thought he should revise it so he changed the quantity of the letters so he put more ease in and less jays, for example, trying to get the right balance. He finally gave up and he sold the rights to a guy called James Bruno who changed the name to Scrabble

also without success having made his own sets. But luckily, the chairman of Macy's had bought a copy, who liked it so much, he ordered 2,500 sets for Macy's. Wow. They started out pretty quickly, and James couldn't keep up with the demand, so he sold the rights to Sell Show and Richter,

and they probably sold 2 million copies, making him a very rich man, unlike Alfred Butts. No kidding. So, you know, these things can be in the balance, whether they're going to be hits or not. So in today's world, with our phones and our tablets, and we have so many games that, you know, are used through the applications on our phone that are, you know, we're playing them against the phone, you know, against the computer. How difficult is it to create a board game and then actually make it happen and get it out to the point? public. Well, ironically, because of the internet, board games are being made in much greater

numbers because of the internet. Wow. Great. The biggest factor, I'd say, is the fact crowdfunding platforms like Kickstarter enable anybody to design a game and pre-sell it, selling it to a global audience through the platform. If they get the funding, then they can ship that game. And if it's popular, then it might go into manufacturing. with a traditional publisher. Then you can also get review scores online. You can see tutorials online. And of course, e-commerce allows you to buy games through Amazon, et cetera,

anywhere in the world. It doesn't matter where you live. So this infrastructure is now labeled a lot more games to actually come to market. So in your book, what is your favorite game? I mean, you've talked about you've got a thousand games at the house and you've played all these games and you've been a creator and a marketer and a player.

What's your favorite game that's in the book that you wish more people would play? Well, that is a terrible question. It's a bit like I wish I was a favorite child and I've got four of them. Well, first of all, let's find out.

We'll find out who your favorite child is. I mean, it's just between you and me. Nobody else will hear it. Yeah, yeah. My secret's safe with you in the Instac, right? So getting back to games. I think I'll have to give four kids. I'll give four games, I guess.

So I think from a classic point of view and a pure admiration for the game itself, it has to be chess, although I don't play it very much anymore. Dungeon Dragons, because it's so much part of my life in the 70s and knowing digacts and everything. and then of the modern day games, I like tickets to ride. And what I've ever played, what else?

That's from Alan Moon, also resides in the U.S. I really like splendor now and then. It's very difficult. I could go on for about four hours, which is my favorite game. I mean, there's hundreds as well I don't like at all, but... All right, well, what's the game that you dislike the most? I don't know which this one's like You know which kid you don't like

So just tell me what game you don't like You know what it is here It's going on to the good stuff I mean the 100 games in the book Are not all ones I like A lot But they have to be there Because they're kind of historically important

Okay I mean there are obviously a lot That I do like But there's some are just there Because they're kind of a milestone in gaming history I mean they like the Royal Game of Goose Beautiful four-color page You see in the book

beautiful ball from Victorian times absolutely boring as hell to play it's just moving rolling the dice and moving your piece around this this lovely but all right boring game and a lot of the Victorian games you know it played in 1800s were just simply that nothing but moving a piece because of the roll of the dice so they're 100% luck and so things only changed in the 1900s. Really because of you can bring that back to Elizabeth McGee who'd invented this game called the Landlords Game in 1903. Right, that turns into monopoly. Right, that game turned into monopoly.

She didn't gain from that, unfortunately. She made it and failed, but Charles Darrow, an engineer, had seen a copy of the landlord's game and made his own version and changed it quite a bit. and called his version Monopoly, which he would have become a millionaire of it. But without the landlord's game, he would not have created Monopoly. We were just talking about that because Monopoly

created the MIS Monopoly off of the main board. And we were just talking about, I wasn't aware of the landlord's game except for a couple weeks ago. And it was fascinating that someone created this game, and you're right, the actual game that I grew up loving to play

would have never happened without the Landlords game. But that's true with a lot of derivatives. Right, and that's true with your 100 games in the book, right? I mean, really, the boring goose game brought games that we all love, but it would have, you know, you had to start somewhere. Yeah, but the Landlord's game and Monopoly had certain squares that were virtually identical and the same way of playing. There's a strong overlap there.

but you know that's life I guess so we're talking to Ian Livenstone who is the author of board games in 100 moves 8,000 years of play and I'm fascinated that I was I'm really surprised to learn that because of the internet board games have

actually grown and become more and more because we hear so much about you know the disconnect between you know adults and children and family and friends yet board games bring us all together so it seems almost counterintuitive.

Yes, and despite the fact that a lot of retail has disappeared, traditional game shops disappeared, but because of this online world now, commerce and community, ballgames are flourishing, and the fact that they can be funded through the internet, too. So long may that continue. So your favorite, really, your favorite games that you like to play are the role-playing ones, so it's less boring, right? I mean, I don't play role-playing so much these days. I mean, it was just, again, a very personal thing for me, the whole D&D thing.

You know, we don't really play D&D anymore, but it was a big part of my life. What, with your favorite child, what was your favorite child's name again? Don't have a favorite. I forgot your favorite child's name off the top of the top of my head. I was thinking, what game do you play with your children now? Is there a game that you get together and you think, oh, we're going to play this tonight? Yeah, we play Ticket to Ride. That's a good family favorite.

It's a railway game. We're building networks of railway roads and having to deliver passengers from one town to another. I mean, it's not too heavy, but it still requires thoughts and planning. So it's a good introductory game that has some depth to it. But the purest games, if you have to go back to thousands of years, like the game of Go from Asia, that is probably the purest game on the planet. There's only two types of pieces. One person has the white stones, the other person of the black stones.

There's a 19 by 19 grid. And you place a stone with the object of fencing off the most area. And so you're trying to surround the other players or trying to call it. board off bits of the board. So that's, I mean... It's already in two seconds, but it takes a lifetime to understand the complexity

because of the number of combinations possible. So that's the beginning. I mean, that's the kind of offello, right? I mean, that's the game that I grew up playing with was Othello. That's kind of the same thing, right? It's, yeah, it's a kind of, I wouldn't say dumb down, but it's a much more accessible version.

Right, right, right, right. Where you're trying, you know, you're trying to gain as much ground from the other stones as you can. fascinating. Yeah, I mean, Ludo was a derivative of a much more complex game called Parchisi. So, yeah, there's nothing, I guess, is original these days. What prompted, okay, so, now, okay, so aside from the board games with card games, you know, you have a deck of cards, when did cards become so prominent? That's kind of, I mean, it's not a board game, but they became pretty prominent,

and so did a lot of card games. Yeah, again, card games go back a long time from around about 1,300 to present day. And, of course, these days, you know, Texas Holden is a huge card game, but as a more for the ballgame type, I mean, these collectible card games, the deck-building games like Magic the Gathering has become a phenomenal success. The Magic of the Gathering actually has a chance to join the Toy Hall of Fame. this year in New York. It's up for it. That's right. I know. Thank you. It's the collectibility of the game, the number of combinations of combining different cards

together to try and beat your opponents, and of course the rarity value. Some of these cards were really, really rare and become worth thousands of dollars themselves, like the Black Lotus card, for example, worth several thousand dollars if you could find one. Wow. I'm going to have to go back and look at my box. full of games. Ian Livingstone, author of A Board Games in 100 Moves, 8,000 years of play. Ian, thank you very much for joining us. I appreciate it,

sir. Thank you very much. Go play a game, and I promise, I promise, I won't tell your family who you said was your favorite kid. Yeah, what's her name? I can't remember now. Seriously, I love games. Thank you for enjoying that interview.

There's not a game I don't really love at some point. You can make anything into a game. I remember one time, I mean, I may have even told the story before where my oldest son and I, I was outside one Sunday and we took the trash out and I had a golf club in my hand and I took a basketball and I just, you know, tried to put the basketball into the trash can with the golf club. We ended up spending the entire afternoon seeing how many times we could do that. We started going down to the neighbors, trash cans down the street, trying to hit the ball. I love games. It's amazing. Don't forget to subscribe to Chewing the Fat. Thank you so much for listening to a Saturday edition.

Subscribe to Chewing the Fat. Tell your friends. Tell your neighbors. Tell everyone you know, hey, you're listening to Chewing the Fat. No, why not? So you can subscribe. It's free. Duh. And you can get it wherever you get any kind of podcast wherever. You ought to listen. Duh. It's really good. So be sure to subscribe to Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher. You know, I was I was thinking that also one of the things that I like about playing games and stuff, and whatever games you want to play is that some games, it's easier than others. You know, you always hear it's a good time for the family to be around the table and talk. Really, if you're involved in the game, a lot of times you're not talking to the family.

I mean, you're not, there's a, there's very, you know, there's competition in the games. There's not a lot of time to say, so how is your day? Do you have a good day today? Because you're trying to win the game. I mean, that's the point of the game. To win the game. It's not to... Now, some people say, oh, Jav.

Jav, you're supposed to enjoy and be with the family and talk. Yeah, no, not in the game. That's for another time. Maybe that's for setting up the game. Maybe that's for taking down the game, whatever the game is. But when you're in the game,

you know, you got to win the game. That's the point. That's why there's winners and losers. But at some point, I know that there's a lot of people worried about, I'm amazed. I truly am amazed at how many kids get bullied in today's world. It amazes me. I don't understand it. But it's a good time for you to maybe talk to your kids about bullying.

And there's also a thing that you can do, an anti-bully pledge that my man, Optimus Prime, who takes care of optimus here.com, is in charge of and is putting together and has been doing and going around to schools all over, and you can get your free anti-bullying message and your cards to do that with whatever group that you're with, family, a couple of kids, or, you know, school, classrooms, whatever it is, just go to Optimusishere.com,

and you can, you'll find it, or you can just want to go to the whole thing. You can go to optimisthere.com. anti-bullie pledge and that'll take you directly to it. Or you can just go to optimus here.com and search around. Duh. Anyway, thanks for listening to Chew and the Fat. I appreciate it.

And have a great weekend. I've got, we can go to a whole bunch of stories if you want. I mean, we talked about games and we, I mean, we could talk about the big story. It was the Mattel making the new gender neutral dolls? I thought they were all pretty much gender neutral. You dress them the way you wanted. This is just me. I could put, let's say I put a guy shirt on Barbie.

I guess it's still Barbie, but it's Barbie in a guy shirt. I mean, I'm not quite sure. It's not quite sure how that's going to work out. But look, they're very, you know, they're private company. They could do what they want. You want to get the gender neutral $30 toy that, you know, if you want your kids. playing with toys that don't dictate what gender they are,

go ahead. It's all you. It's all you. Now there's going to be six types of those dolls that you're going to be able to get. And I'm sure that everyone's going to buy all six and then not open them because they want to be collector's additions down the road. I'm not saying that you don't believe that these dolls are actually going to help things. Wow, that would be just wrong.

Each doll includes two hairstyle options, short, long, allowing the kids to style the dials hair how they wish. The new line is hailed by Let Toys Be Toys. So reduce gender stereotyping in children's products. Ugh.