Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher - Ep 478 | Playing With Fire | Guest: Billy Hallowell

Episode Date: October 3, 2020

Guest: Billy Hallowell Playing With Fire A Modern Investigation into Demons, Exorcism, and Ghosts Available wherever books are sold. https://billyhallowell.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Get no frills delivered. Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at pceexpress.ca. Welcome to chewing the fat. How in the world are you? You look great today. This is a quasi-American dream story of which my man is living his own American dream.

And, you know, I just wanted to talk to an author, Billy Hollowell, a friend of mine, his latest book playing with fire. And I wanted to, you know, I took some time. I sat down with Billy and a fascinating book playing with fire. And I wanted to talk to him about that. So I appreciate you listening to Chewing the Fat Saturday edition. But remember that if you're listening to this and you're not a subscriber to chewing the fat, you could do better in life.

And to do better in life, that means you need to be a subscriber to chewing the fat. so it's available on a plethora of platforms and just choose one iTunes Iheart Radio Stitcher Spotify and then subscribe to the podcast it's just that simple and as long as you're busy in the subscribing mood you might as well subscribe to the YouTube channel as well

that is the same name as this show Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher so you kill two birds with one stone oh I mean wound you don't want to kill thing, one to two birds with one stone, and your life will be that much better. With that, let's have at it. Billy Hollowell, the man, the myth, the legend. Joining me on Chewing the Pat today, Mr. Holliwell, how in the world are you? I'm well, I'm well, and I, I miss seeing your face. I miss seeing everybody's face at the blaze, but no, I'm doing, I'm doing, I'm

doing well life is is different but it's good i i miss you too and i must say that i do think about mornings uh alone in manhattan with just you with me drinking coffee we were we were the first ones in that office every morning up on the 40th floor whatever it was there yeah absolutely exactly 745 in the morning hanging out just me and you because everyone else is being lazy and coming in at a at a normal time at nine so mr hollywell i know you have the new book playing with fire and we'll get into that. But what are you doing now? I mean, I see your face, your mug everywhere, but what specifically are you doing? I mean, other than just writing a couple of books here and there, what are you doing with your life? Well, I've been trying to keep busy. So I'm full time with

Purefix. I'm the director of communications and content over at PureFix. So that has kind of been everything from working on internal marketing to producing a couple TV series that we did. one, in fact, was with Missy Robertson, who is the wife of, obviously, Chase, who is over at the Blaze with his dad. And so that was a great series. We did sort of this series on these women she's helping. Yeah, yeah. I talked to her about that, in fact. Oh, yeah, she's great.

Yeah, we talked to her a lot of years ago about that, yeah. Yeah, she's phenomenal. And then, so a couple of series, we're doing with Abby Johnson about abortion. That was really interesting. She has a powerful story. Isn't her story crazy? Yes, it is. it is.

It's crazy. Speaking of her, just as a side note, when she spoke at the convention, and we've interviewed her and I've talked to her and I've met her, but I had never thought about the smell of the horse. When she mentioned that at the convention, I thought, holy cow, yes. Yeah, that burning flesh smell.

That's what came to mind. I don't mean to be grabbing it, and it just made me sick to my stomach because I had never thought of that either. I know. I had another. I've talked to her a bunch of times. and I just don't remember any of that. It was just like, oh, my gosh.

Yeah, it's crazy. So I'm actually working with her, and I'm working with the Christian Post. They have this app called the Edify app, and it's a Christian podcasting platform, and Abby has a show. So I produce her show. I'm producing a show with Charlotte Pence Bond,

Mike Pence's daughter, about doubt, which is really interesting. So I've been doing that, like working in the podcasting world, hosting a couple podcasts. I host the PureFix podcast for PureFix, and then book writing, and then also, there's a lot of random things going on. This weekly TV hit that I'm doing for the first, which has been interesting too. So, yeah, it's been busy.

It's been a weird, busy season. And you, I mean, you are living the American dream, right? I mean, you're living in New York. I don't know, are you still living in the city or are you outside of the city now? I'm outside of the city. We have a townhouse because I'm lazy and I don't like to do the lawn. So, like, the nice thing is I don't have to go the lawn. or pay and really don't really have to pay anybody to do it i guess the homeowners association they'd do it but

um but yeah so we we got a nice little townhouse here and then we just got a place with family in pennsylvania because new york is crazy it's just crazy i can't i just i actually after this whole covid thing i was like i do not want to be trapped in this townhouse again for no yeah i can't do it so um so yeah we're getting used to the polka nos which i know you have some family i do my wife is a huge fan of the Poconos. In fact, she's there now as we speak. Trying to move you back there. I'm sure as, I mean, neighbors.

When are we going to go back to Pennsylvania? That's all I'm going to hear in the next few days. So really looking forward to that. Tell her hi for me. I love your wife. She's phenomenal. Yeah, she's all right. She's great.

So how many books have you written now? You've got the new book playing with fire, which is what I wanted to talk to you about. But, I mean, you're working on a good half dozen now, right? I mean, you're picking up. You get close to a Baker's dozen. I've done four of them. Yeah, I've written four of them. And you know what's...

Well, I mean, I feel... Only four. I have to tell you this. Like, I am not somebody... I'm actually annoyed by people who write books just to write them. I find it annoying because I feel like it's... To me, if I'm going to write something, it's because I really like it. And that might not be something that translates always into something that's going to be a huge hit.

Or it's something that I feel like I'm supposed to do. Like, I've prayed about it. I'm like, you know what I... Like, this book, playing with fire one i didn't want to write this book like who who wants to be like the weird demon book person right um but i have to tell you after i wrote it i was like this was it was so interesting to learn about and we could talk about it but the subject matter so i just like to write books that are i hope will help people in some way that and that's honestly the truth

i mean so yeah yeah let's talk about playing with fire a little bit then uh the modern investigation into demons exorcisms and ghosts what What was the number one thing that surprised you? We'll dig into it, and I have a few other questions, but the number one thing that really surprised you with it. You know, the thing that really surprised me is that there are cases and things that, well, first of all, people are afraid to talk about things they've dealt with or experience, right? And we see this in a lot of different issues, but people don't want to be called crazy.

And so I guess it didn't surprise. It surprised me in the end because there were people who had compelling stories. and evidence of their story, and I couldn't get them to share it because they really were so bogged down with feeling like, you know what, I just don't feel right about this, or I'm going to be looked at as weird. And so on the other side of it, the people who did share, I was surprised by how lucid and normal and how some of these people actually were validating one another's stories and had evidence of what they were talking about, or at least presumably had evidence that led me to believe, and I'm a Christian, so I'm not closed, I believe in these things,

but I'm also skeptical of anybody can say anything, right? I could tell you something happened to me and I could be making it up because I want to write a book about it or make money on it. Right, right. So, yeah, I was surprised by the level to which people who did share were believable. That kind of surprised me because you went into it thinking that it wasn't real, or you were questioning the real validity of all of it? So I went into it knowing that I believe it's real, right?

And I go into it in the book, I talk about what the Bible says about it. Like, okay, let's talk faith-wise. What are we dealing with? So I believe it's real. But individual stories, I'm always skeptical of it. So it's this weird thing. I know it's true. I know it can happen.

But when somebody tells me, okay, this happened to me, I want facts. I want to know, how can you prove to me that you had something happen that is, unexplainable, right? That you can't explain this by natural means. And when people are reluctant to talk about something, it actually makes me more comfortable because I'm like, okay, you're reluctant to talk about it because, you know, and when I can actually find numerous people who will tell me the same story, like, no, I was there and I saw this, that's compelling. So I went into it skeptical of individual stories and I wanted to be convinced, but believing the issue itself. Does that if that makes sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you talk a lot about darkness. And, I mean, we are living in times that seem to think that the lights are dimming. Maybe not full darkness, but the lights are definitely dimming. How do we get out of that? How do we turn the lights back on?

Yeah, so this is what is so interesting to me. And I think for anybody who's a Christian and they follow sort of the end times theology, and I know this is stuff that Glenn and others, have talked a lot about, right? You talk about what the Bible says about this stuff, and it's really fascinating. And that was the first book I wrote was about the end times. And so, connecting the dots on all these things is, is intriguing because it may be that we don't get out of it. And I know that that sounds like a hopeless thing. And what I mean is that what we have to it's not a horrible thing, right? Right. It's not a lot. Well, it is horrible because it's like,

Well, it's not. Now, I think individuals can get better and be healed and be connected to God and change. I mean, go on Twitter. You look at the crap that's on Twitter. It is awful. The way that people interact and talk to each other, the way that it's insane. And it's evil. And in particular today, right? Oh, yeah. As we speak, for those of you that, you know, are listening live to this recording on the second of October 2020. I mean, we just got news that, you know, President Trump. his wife and Hope Higgs and Senator Mike Lee all tested positive for coronavirus or COVID-19

and the hate. Oh yeah. I mean, there's plenty of love. I will say that. I did see, and maybe that's just because of the people that, you know, I follow. Even some on the left, right? There was, even a few people on the left surprised me this morning. Fox had a write up about some of those

wishing prayers. I'm like, oh, wow, Alyssa Milano and you know, if you believe it. But, you know, you take them at their word. I know that. You take them at their word. I got it. But, you know, just some of the hate and the vitriol for the president.

And, you know, it's about time and it's good. The same people who cry that we won't condemn racism, but we want this guy to die. Oh, okay. Right. It's crazy. And so when you look at, it's funny, like, I was just looking at Matthew 24 in the Bible. When the disciples go to Jesus and they ask. and what are the signs of the end times?

And he kind of goes through. And some of them are vague and you're trying to understand. We're trying to look back and understand it. But one of them is that people's love will grow cold, that people will become very cold. And I think we're, am I saying we're at the end of days? No, but people are cold and it's getting worse. And I think we're going to see it get worse.

But at the same time, the hope is that if we can reach individual people and try to get them to see that this is not the way to be. And from my perspective, turn them towards God. Then that's how you start having a solution within the chaos. And so when you look at evil, though, and I think that's how we sort of got on this train. One of the things with writing, playing with fire, that struck me, you know, I never looked at the Bible as a book where I was going to go in and pull out all the bits about evil, right? I just never did that. I would read it through.

And I, okay, but when you look, okay, who is Satan? What is, who is Satan? He is a deceiver. He is a manipulator. He, you know, the Bible describes him in this way that actually is completely reflective of everything that culture and society are becoming. And that was crazy to me to just see that like, oh my gosh, wow, this is, people are being influenced by media in Hollywood and all of these different arenas. And so, and then on top of that to then look at, okay, well, what does it look like? Let's say, and there are skeptics, and listen, the atheists have bought this book because they're curious, they want to know.

But going through all the times that Jesus healed people of possession, what does that look like? And that was really eye-opening, too, to look at that, because I never had. So when we go through, I start looking through the chapters or the different parts of the book, the one is opening the door and pathways to the spiritual quicksand. What are those pathways? So are you worried you've taken one of them? I most definitely have. There's no question about that, my friends.

So, you know, one of the things was to go, I wanted to go to mental health professionals, but also pastors, and I talk to at least one priest in the book, people who deal with this on the day to day, because this is a strange topic. It's not something we often think about. Even a lot of churches aren't talking about this, which is really interesting. They don't talk about it. Let me say this.

There is not an issue, and I could be wrong. Nobody's checked me on this yet, but I want someone to. There's not an issue described in the Bible more frequently, especially the New Testament, that is talked about less in churches than this. And it's because there's a lot of reasons. But it's a weird topic, right? But I wanted to go and talk to these people and find out, what are you seeing in the day-to-day? These are people who are normal faith leaders who are called upon to help deal with these issues when people believe they're happening.

Right. We hear the word evil quite a lot, but is there real evil? Right. Is there real evil? And how does it manifest itself? Is it just in the culture like we're talking about? Are people being deceived? Is it – or is it at an individual level?

Can somebody be afflicted by evil? And so what was fascinating was people talking about these faith leaders that there are ways that you can open doorways. That possession is a really rare thing. It doesn't happen all the time. So a lot of people, they think, oh, I'm dealing with the demon. It's like, no, you're probably not. Although these faith leaders... You're on the road.

You're on the road. You could be on the road because you've opened the door, right? You've opened the door. And that's where you're leading down the road of darkness, right? Right. Well, and so what opens the door? And this is something that people will challenge me on and they'll say that I'm just relaying what I found in this investigation. When you go into the Bible, you go to the Old Testament, it very clearly repeatedly says, do not go to psychics, do not go to mediums.

Again, something I kind of was taught, but I never read. Do not try to consult the dead. Do not try to make these connections because these are not things that you're supposed to be messing with. And so you have these stories of people, and I've encountered so many of people who had gone through this. who had played with Ouija boards and they were doing it for fun or they had had. And they started experiencing things in their life after. Now, listen, the majority of people who have touched Ouija boards have had no problem with them. And I understand that.

But these are pathways that these faith leaders would tell you are consistently brought up by people who are seeking help. That they were trying to communicate with the dead. And maybe it was well-intentioned. You lost a loved one. You're trying to communicate with them. They were using Ouji boards. And I know of people who actually obsessively have used Ouija boards hours a day trying to communicate with the other side, right? And so there's lots of different ways you can open a door, but those are some of the ones that came up in interviews.

And you make yourself, and I think I remember reading it, and maybe it was another book and not yours, but I do remember that, you know, people, when you talk about the people who were addicted to whatever, but mostly drugs, that that's definitely a doorway that gets open then, right? You've now opened the door to, well, I just want the drugs. And if that's what it takes for me to get the drugs, then that's what it takes for me to get the drugs. And that's a great point. So one of the guys who I was talking with in the book, who deals with deliverance, he said that usually that most of the people he works with in this field will tell you that they spend most of their time dealing with locations and not people. So they're not dealing as much with possession as they are.

And not everybody believes this now. I think this would be referred to as haunting. People believe that dead people are haunting. But they would say, well, no, it's actually demons. It's evil spirits. And they haunt a place where drug deals have gone down maybe where a lot of bad things have happened. And that was an interesting concept. Again, not everybody will believe it.

But when it comes to addiction, even in talking with the mental health professionals, they would often say that they would find that there would be a spiritual component to that addiction. that using drugs obsessively opens you up to that and that evil is attracted to that sort of thing because it's what destroys people's lives, right? And we go back to that definition of Satan, destroying, deceiving, all of these things. Now, this sounds crazy to people. They're like, well, what do you mean?

But I will tell you there are psychologists and psychiatrists and working at mainstream places, teaching at Columbia University, who will tell you that they are actually opening themselves up to believe that there is this spiritual side because they can't explain some of the things they're encountering. Well, I mean, look, and you can use this line. I notice you didn't use my line in your book, Billy, but I'm going to give you a quote from Jeff Fisher

that you can use in the future, live in the dark long enough, and it becomes your light. Absolutely. I mean, and that. I like that. Thank you. I know. You're very smart.

See, I should have called you before. No, no, no. I don't want your pity now. Don't do it. But the, and that's what happens. Right? I mean, the door is open. And so, like you say, areas rather than particular people, because those areas have been opened by multiple people with weaknesses and desires that are able to get preyed upon, right? So you're playing with five.

My gosh. Look at that. You brought it full circle. And actually, I have to blame the Blaze for this book because when I was the Blaze as the Faith Editor, these stories would come through. And there are a few stories that are actually retold in the book from my time working at the Blaze that were really compelling. Do you remember the one, and you may not remember this, but I think I remember Glenn talking about it too, the kid who walked up the wall, that whole story in Indiana and Gary Indiana. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that actually, and I cover that story in depth in the book, because it is the most documented. It sounds insane, okay, that a nurse and a CPS worker saw a kid walk up the wall. but it is I know I laugh too I listen I wish I was nimble enough to walk up a wall barely walk through the kitchen well it depends on my motivation for what gets me in the kitchen if there's a cake on the table I'll be fine I'll get there quick but you know so so this case was the mother the grandmother and the three kids

and they were in this house and you remember they were claiming that all sorts of crazy things were happening that the mother was feeling as though she was possessed it was jumping to the children and it became a case where the government, the local officials were like, okay, this mother's abusing her kids, and they remove the kids from the home. But before that happens,

they're at a doctor's office, and the doctor was so terrified by the behavior of the kids that they called 911. And so 911 comes, they take the kids away, they get to the hospital, and this is where this event allegedly happened.

Now, according to the CPS worker, this kid walked up the wall, did like a little flip and landed on his feet. And there was a nurse in the room, who also saw this. They run out, they get a doctor. The doctor comes in, he says, you're crazy, this didn't happen. And he tells the kid, do it again.

The kid's like, I can't walk up the wall. What are you talking about? So they file a CPS report with this. So an official government report that actually describes this, and I have it in the book, and it's very eerily reading it because you're watching somebody who's had a long career as a respected CPS worker, right, that she saw somebody walk up a wall. And that's just the beginning of it. So, of course, I'm skeptical as I'm investigating this and going back to it.

So I call the sheriff who is involved. He's since retired. He's reluctant to talk, but he talks about his experience. I call the priest. He communicates with me about his experience. And you end up in playing with fire with this really interesting perspective on this case in which not one person says that they thought there was a natural explanation to what went on. So, you know,

because you have to believe it then. I mean, in that case, here's what I'll say. They could all be lying, but they have no reason to be. These are not people who are out there trying to make money. And as far as I understand it, the CPS worker who saw this, left her job, left the state, and has not been speaking about this publicly, that it had a profound impact over her. And that to me, listen, I believe that anybody could lie. So if I found out tomorrow it was a lie, I'd be like, that was an elaborately beautiful lie.

I think it would be very hard to make these things up when everybody is experiencing them, right? So this may be your next book, but do we know what happened to the kid and the mom? So I chose to leave them alone. And I know some people are like, why didn't you? Because they had spoken out. Oh, no, I know, I know. I chose to leave them. They apparently were healed that everything was fine.

They moved away from that house. And that house has since been torn down. Okay. So that gives you, right, that was the pathway, right? that takes you back to the area, not just the people. Right. And here's the thing. Now, these Christian leaders would say, well, listen, the people would be okay if they were

connected to Jesus, if they were, they'd be okay. But if somebody is not and you're in a place like that, you could easily be prayed upon because it's already there, right? And you are opening yourself up to it. Now, there's a lot of debate around all of these things. And the craziest thing is when you go to the Bible and you look, because again, I'm a Christian. I want to understand through a Christian lens what evil is.

Every single case where Jesus expels a demon and heals somebody, we have no concept or clue. It's not written how that person was possessed. And I never noticed that. You're only meeting people where they are. They're already ill when you meet them. And he's encountering them in that state. And that, to me, is incredible because we can't really know. We know what we're supposed to avoid.

We know what we're told to avoid. But we have no idea. And by the way, two children are possessed in the Bible. I never noticed that either. Two children. How does a child become possessed? Well, and then we get back to the story, right? They were somehow open to it, and they were in an area that was a possessed area.

Or their parents put them in a position of, you know, of some sort of danger by dabbling in these things. And I actually had talked. What's so interesting, I've talked to people who have had parents who have put them in those positions as children and had actually had these things happen to them. Right. And so you see these parallels of, wow, you know, you had no control as a kid. Your parents are bringing you to this place. Right. I mean, people practice witchcraft.

I mean, there's crazy things in this world that go on that seem bizarre, but they're happening. Sure, every day. I mean, I'm friends with a good witch, and she would have nothing to do with any of the evil practices. She doesn't want to open any of those doors. She's well aware of opening, you know, opening the doors into darkness. and wants nothing to do with it. But she's still practicing. Some would say what she's not supposed to be, right?

Right. And so here's the question that you have to have in these cases, and this is where it gets uncomfortable, right? If you're being told, if you believe the Bible and you're being told in Scripture, avoid all of these things, and somebody has the ability to do those things, where is that coming from?

And I can't answer it outside of saying, I don't believe it's coming from God. If he's telling us to avoid doing it, I can't assume he's giving the ability to form those sorts of things. And that is the, that's the challenge on this. And I will tell you, I have seen things personally that I cannot explain, right? But God has given us the choice, right? We're able to make the choice and make the decisions and have our own personal responsibility, right?

Right. So that is true. I mean, well, and here's the thing. some of the people, there's a guy I interviewed in the book and it was really interesting. He was a Dungeons and Dragons player and he was obsessed with the game. And for him,

and I know a lot of people get really worked up about Harry Potter and all these other things, but in his case, what was interesting, he had a troubled upbringing, he was abused, he was looking for power. So it didn't matter what it was. It just so happened that this benign game became an obsession for him.

He's like, I want that power. And as he grew up, he actually started to seek that power out in real time. in real life. And so he ended up essentially meeting this guy who was already channeling. They were calling them the spirit channelers. I forget what they were calling them. And so he starts doing it too. And literally they're dealing with the demonic. They're inviting it in. And at first he loved it because it was giving him these extra abilities that he didn't have before. He knew things. He could feel things in different ways. But this culminated in this guy, his name's Rob, and I talk about him in the book, he would wake up. He'd go to, to bed. He'd be like, I'm going to bed because I got to get up for work tomorrow, and he would wake up suddenly in a bar, fully closed, smoking a cigar and drinking without any recollection about how he got there. Who among us? Billy, who among us hasn't had that happen?

Jeffey, that's like a regular Saturday for you. I understand. What kind of story is that? I mean, it's so terrible. That is, I mean, it sounds like a college story, right? Yeah, but, but I mean, he, so he ends up going through this whole thing and he becomes a Christian and he sort of renounces it. And those things went away. Those abilities that he had went away for him. And, you know, people, again, they're so hesitant to share these things because they don't want to be the crazy people in the room. And so my challenge to people is pick up the book and read it. You don't have to agree or believe it. I don't tell people what to think in the book. That's not my job to do. But I will tell you there are some really compelling cases. And I think

since the beginning of time, I don't think this. I know it. The human experience is people talking about these things. People have had these experiences forever, and they're not all mental illness. They don't appear. Right. And most Christian entities, churches, you know, the foundations of that, most of them have, even if they don't address it, like you say, they don't talk about it much, have their own system of exercising those demons? Yes. Well, what's, you know, interesting is that the Catholic Church has like a very specific, here's what we do, right? We've got the Latin right, which they have in English now.

We've got Holy Water. They have tools. But then you talk to these evangelical pastors and others who they're like, we walked in the room. We were like, you don't belong here, get out, and it was done. And it's fascinating to me that you have that dynamic. And then you have people in the middle who are like, well, I'm a Protestant, but sometimes I've seen the crucifix work. or sometimes I've seen the waterwork. And you have to remember, too, that people are affected at all different levels.

There's a woman, actually, and there's a guy Richard Gallagher, who's a psychiatrist, well-respected here in New York. I didn't interview him for the book, but I talked to him. I actually met up with him, and I was picking his brain, and I pulled from the things he said publicly. But he's been working with the Catholic Church for years. He was called in on a case in the 1980s, the satanic priestess, a woman who was worshipping Satan, but who wanted to be free from it. So she lived in both worlds. And he couldn't help her because she wasn't willing to stop doing what she was doing.

But she wanted to be free of it. And so he... How could she want to be free of it if she's not going to let it go? It doesn't... Well, it seemed to have control over her. It seemed to have control over her. And that part of her new, this is not good. I need to get rid of it.

And so he described... And that, I'm sorry, I'm going to cut you off again, but that actually leads back into the possibility of some sort of... of mental illness, right? It does. Now, so this is why he was brought in, right? So he, this psychiatrist, he goes in and he's like, listen, I think this is not true. He grew up Catholic, but I think there's a scientific explanation for all of this.

And so he's investigating this. And as he's investigating it, he's realizing, oh, my goodness, there's something else going on here. He's on a phone call. And he's described this in the Washington Post and CNN, he's written about this. He's on a phone call with the priest dealing with the case. So you've got the priest, you've got him. And this woman is 2,000 miles away.

So she's not on this phone call. And in the middle of this conversation, both he and the priest claimed that this voice was heard over the phone, threatening them, telling them to leave her alone and hurling expletives at them. And so he's like, listen, I'm a rational person, but I have no explanation for how this happened, right? And so he became such a believer in this that he is now working, not only teaching here at secular colleges, but working with the Catholic Church on cases. And he will tell you the majority of cases are not possession. Right. And so, I mean, if he's walking into all of them with the look of, you're not real, then the ones that are real are really going to stick out, right? I mean, it's

Well, I mean, and then there's another quick story is M. Scott Peck, who was an atheist, essentially, and he's now gone. He died a few years back. He was a psychiatrist as well. He assisted on two exorcisms, and I talk about his story in the book, and actually became a believer as a result of these two exorcisms. One was successful, one was not, and the woman ended up dying later on. And his last book was about seeing evil. I forget the title of it, but it was about confronting evil. And he talked about these exorcisms, and he was very well respected.

And so you have people who are willing to talk about it, and I will tell you also that there are exorcists who will tell you, listen, I get a phone call once a year from, you know, a mental institution, and they'll tell me, we need this to be quiet, but we need your help. We've got a case that we cannot deal with. We need you to come in and help us. Right. Because nobody wants to mess with evil. No. With real evil. You don't want to play with fire.

No, you do not. You do not want to play with fire. But you do want to read playing with fire. Yes. If I wanted to read playing with fire, how would someone go about, you know, actually owning a copy of people? So there is a website,

playing with firebook.com. And then it's Amazon. Walmart actually just like, you know, spoiler alert, Walmart has it a few dollars cheaper than everyone else right now. So I would tell people to go to Walmart. Yeah, like $3 cheaper.

Wow. Yeah. There you go. I mean, does it cut you out of any extra money? I don't know. I swear, I tell you, I don't, I honestly do not write books for money. And I told Michael, our friend Michael Pelker. I can understand that you don't write books for money.

How's the new house in the mountains? Oh, well. Oh, well. Well, I went half and half on that because I'm a bargain guy, right? I had to, like, split it, you know, I had to split it. You know, Pennsylvania is dirt cheap, right? Are you working with my wife now? Is that what you're doing with my wife?

I don't even know why I'm talking to. I mean, your wife is correct. You anymore. Playing with darkness. The, and I love the, a modern investigation into demons, exorcisms, and ghosts.

I love that. Billy, um, great, I love you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for us.

I appreciate you. I appreciate you finally giving a little bit of your expensive, a lot of time to be. Thank you. Well, I feel like we should make this a regular thing, Jeffrey, which probably is terrifying to you, but I would be open to it. Oh, no, no, no. I want to get out of the darkness. I want to get out of the darkness. You come to Pennsylvania.

Thank you, I appreciate it. Thank you.