Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher - Ep 510 | It’s Not About the Money | Guest: John Douglas

Episode Date: November 16, 2020

 Bigfoot Statue found and returned to its rightful space… When Orca’s attack…Told you animals would fight back… San Fran wants to ban smoking in apartments Parties raided in NY this weekend��� Too many regulations… Strip Clubs, Casinos and Liquor Stores Oh My… Mother drops lawsuit against college for pancake eating contest death… Subscribe to the Podcast… Subscribe to the YouTube Channel… Subscribe www.blazetv.com/jeffy Promo code jeffy Email to [e-mail] The Silent Will Be Heard Dot Com… How much would you pay for a pigeon? Facebook and Twitter go before another hearing … yawn … Election was stolen / No it wasn’t / The machines were hacked, No you’re hacked… He’s Dictator, No you’re a fascist… I just can’t… Interview: John Douglas Author and the founding father of criminal profiling and modern criminal investigative analysis… Dey Street is proud to present an all-new riveting and timely book by iconic FBI criminal profiler and international bestselling author of Mindhunter and The Killer Across the Table: THE KILLER’S SHADOW by John Douglas and Mark Olshaker (on sale November 17). Engrossing, terrifying, and utterly essential given our nation’s rise in extremism and hate-filled rhetoric, THE KILLER’S SHADOW is an in-depth examination of Douglas’s chilling pursuit of, and eventual prison confrontation with Joseph Paul Franklin, a White Nationalist serial killer and one of the most disturbing psychopaths he has ever encountered. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Okay, we can breathe easy. The Bigfoot statue, the four-foot tall wooden statue that was stolen outside the tiny Bigfoot Museum in Felton, California, has been found. They found it along the side of a road. somebody called and said, hey, the statue you're looking for is on the side of the road over here. So whoever took it decided that it was a mistake. And the people outside of Henry Cowell Redwood State Park needed to have it before anyone else. And they shouldn't have stolen it.

Maybe some bad luck came upon them as it, as they were. trying to haul it off because you just don't be stealing bigfoot statues okay but they found that out and it has now been returned to its rightful place on the planet welcome to chewing the fat so you know here on chewing the fat we've talked about how animals were going to attempt to take back over, right, during the original lockdown, the starting of lockdowns all over, animals were starting to come into the cities because people were quarantined and people were not going out. And the animals were like, hey, what's going on here? And we talked about how animals would start, you know, attacking.

They need food. We saw the monkeys and, you know, the monkeys were attacking because they don't have any food and people usually feed them. So, you know, tourist season is no more. And so I see this headline about a rogue orca attack. And I think, hmm, kind of, I just thought, hmm. That was, I believe, an actual quote from me, hmm, on a rogue orca attack.

And really, that isn't true at all. So the story talks about a British sailor who now has retired and he delivered. and he delivers boats and yachts all over the world. Okay, that's what he does. And so he's been on the ocean a bunch and he said, you know, I don't frighten easily. And this was terrifying. So he's out in the ocean and he starts wondering, hmm, what's going on?

One of the crew members says, hey, it looks like we have some large dolphins at the back of the boat. and he looks and says, no, dummy, those are whales. And so the whales started ramming the boat. And it went on for several hours. I mean, they're lucky that it didn't, you know, put a hole in the boat or knock it over. And apparently, according to this man, it was the juveniles, the young ones. So the older adults were like, yeah, go ahead.

ram it if you want. I don't care. Those damn humans. Go ahead. And then they stopped. A couple hours later, they just stopped. And he was, he had called the Coast Guard and he was saying, hey, you might have to come to rescue me.

And the Coast Guard was saying, just shut down and be quiet and don't give it anything to worry about. And he's like, duh. But if it, you know, if they dislodge the rudder or penetrate the boat, it's going down. Right. And that's what he was concerned about. But they were just dinging it around for the heck of it.

Okay, so rogue orca attack, remember, that's the headline. Rogue orca attack. At the very end of this story, it says, The attack is one of over 40 that have occurred this year in the waters off Spain and Portugal as killer whales focus on people and boats. They're saying that according to scientists, they think it could be revenge attacks after several of their numbers sustained injuries over the summer from runners. So now they're saying the whales are pissed and they're fighting back. Okay, good luck, but I know it's a rogue orca attack.

No, they're pissed and they're fighting back. this time, they're pissed. And they are fighting back. I mean, this one attack was just, they were just toying with them, right? They were just saying, we could sick this thing in a heartbeat. I'm going to send the kids over and let them ding you around a little bit. But just know, if we wanted to, you're going down. So, I mean, it's not a rogue attack.

These whales are attacking. Revenge attacks. animals are pissed and I thought for sure I thought for sure when they started talking about scientists think here we go

climate change they're attacking the boats because of climate change nope they're pissed because some of the whales got hit from rudders okay

I mean if that were true really I mean we could joke around about revenge attacks but if that were true man, in Florida, manatees would be killing people left and right. I mean, manatees get hit a lot by runners and boats.

So if they wanted to cause revenge on humans, they would have done it a long time ago. So maybe they're just, you know, the friendly sea cow. But let's hope the manatees don't get pissed. If all the animals start to get really ticked, We are in big, big trouble. You know that as well as I do, which is why we talked about animals attacking months ago

and gave you the heads up that it could be happening. You may have a rogue attack in your neighborhood at any time, so be careful. Here we go again. San Francisco and most importantly cities all across America, but San Francisco politicians are considering another policy that would ban smoking inside private apartment buildings. Now, sure, you say to yourself,

well, San Francisco, don't they allow people to just crap in the streets? Of course they do. But that's in the streets and those people are homeless. But if you have a home, you shouldn't be allowed to do what you want to do inside your dwelling. Are you stupid? If you have an apartment inside a building with other people, they don't want to smell you and smell your cigarette smoke or your pot smoke. Now, sure, you could go live on the street and you could crap and pee and smoke and do whatever

you want out on the streets in front of people and nobody will be there to help you. But nope, not if you actually have an apartment. I get it. Okay, if you live inside a building like that, the smoke permeates everything. And I don't want that either. And you know that hotels have floors or sections now that are smoking. And most of them are no smoking through the whole thing because it's tough to have a no smoking section of a building and have a smoking section in that building. Because the smoke permeates everything. I get it. I, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm an ex-smoker. I'm still, you know, it's been almost two years since I've had anything to smoke.

Very, very, very, it's been a long two years. It's been a long, long, long, two years. And, you know, my wantings and cravings are less and less. And we've talked about that before as well. But if I want to live in a non-smoking building, that should be up to the people of, the building, right? So if I, you know, it's kind of like your HOA, right? If you don't want to live in a homeowners associated neighborhood, don't move there. If you move there, then, you know, quit your bitching about the rules. Go to work for the HOA and get the rules changed. Go to work for your

building HOA and, you know, get the rules changed. But until then, if you move into a non-smoking building, That should be good enough, but not for politicians. Politicians would want to be able to set the rules straight so they can find you and find a way to make it possible to make just a little bit more money from you, the low life that has an apartment building. Okay. Okay. That's good.

I know that we have the secondhand smoke argument and all of that. And I don't care about the secondhand smoke give you cancer. or does it not give you cancer, whatever. We can have that. That's another argument. But my argument is, don't. I mean, there's enough rules and regulations. Enough rules and regulations.

Oh my gosh. There's two stories out of New York, all the way over on the other side of the country, all right, from San Francisco, from this weekend that I was just amazed at, okay, amazed at, that they talked about arrests. And I've got to find the stories here.

One, they were both by the sheriff's department, okay? New York City Sheriff's Department. And they busted a party. It was a, you know, a rave party going on. Oh, my gosh. A COVID rave party. You criminals. So they found out about it online.

And they, of course, busted. it. And they arrested 205 people who were gathered to drink and smoke hookahs in violation of Stitty and State Code. Oh my gosh. And and and COVID-19

rules. And this is what really really ticked me off about this arrest when they talked about what was wrong with this place. All right. So they of course this was an illegal party pay for entry bash here in the COVID-19 world so the party

organizers were supposed to have a permit to distribute and store alcohol and have licensed and documented security on hand all right not to mention they violated the COVID-19 rule of, you know, of operating at 25% capacity. And so coronavirus orders, and they were operating an unlicensed bottle club. And it just got me thinking, all these rules and regulations, man,

it's just, it's got to stop. And then they busted another, a fight club in the Bronx by the New York City Sheriff's Department. They were busy this weekend. So another get together illegally here during the emergency orders rules. Okay. This place didn't have a liquor license either.

They were warehousing liquor, which they needed a, you know, a rule, a violation that had to have a permit for that. Now, this place, the fight club also had, you know, loaded firearms and, you know, stuff like that. It wasn't necessarily. a fun get-together party. I was sure there was some illegal gambling going on as well. The Fight Club,

aka Rumble in the Bronx. But again, no liquor license, and they were warehousing liquor, and I'm sure they didn't have a permit to have any kind of gathering, whether it's a fight club or not. It just... It's time for the rules and regulations

to be done. To be done. Before I get into another story that will remind you of how many rules and regulations we have in the world now, I want to talk to you a little bit about fund rise, F-U-N-D-R-I-S-E. We've heard for years that it's important to have a diversified portfolio, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, that kind of thing. But if you've ever looked at a breakdown of the most successful, portfolios, you typically see a diversified set of real estate. So why hasn't real estate been one of the first asset classes you consider when you're

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And to save 90 days of advisory fees, use Jeff. Fundrise.com slash jeff. First 90 days of advisory fees waived when you do that. F-U-N-D-R-I-S-E dot com slash J-E-F-F, get those first 90 days of advisory fees waived. Fundrise.com slash Jeff. So more rules and regulations. Justice Alito rips the Supreme Court

for not considering church coronavirus lawsuits. Uh, yeah, that's what you're there for. His quote is, if you go to Nevada, you can gamble, drink, and attend all sorts of shows, but here's what you can't do. If you want to worship and you're the

51st person in line, sorry, you're out of luck, and he was singling out Nevada. But then we get the story that talks about California, setting up to reopen strip clubs before churches. Now, I'm not opposed to strip clubs being open, but I am opposed to, hey, it's okay to have strip clubs open,

but, hey, not churches. What? Are you out of your minds? Now, many would say, yeah, they are, okay? So, a Superior Court judge in California ordered the state to end any actions that prevent the clubs from being allowed to provide live adult entertainment

according to the decision. Okay. Now the owners of these two strip clubs argued that their business is legally protected speech guaranteed by the First Amendment. The same argument that churches have been making about their own services. Yeah. Which is why we should

all be open for business. Please. I will say. And these states are locking down again because it appears. years that the COVID-19 numbers are going up. But I was out in about this weekend, and I live in DFW, for those of you listening to this podcast somewhere around the world, and I know there's many of you. Thank you.

I appreciate it. But I was out and about here in Dallas Fort Worth this weekend. And if you follow me on Twitter at Jeffrey JFR, you know I commented about it. Texas is open for business. Now, I went to a Costco. All right. They were two and three to a mule in this place, man. It was amazing.

I couldn't believe it. I pulled into the parking lot and it was, you know, we were looking for a place to park. I mean, it was just incredible the amount of people in this store. And I'm sure that they were following all and any rules or regulations that had to be followed. everyone was wearing a mask. They won't let you in. Whether you want to spend money or not, it doesn't matter,

which is, you know, another questionable argument. But my point is, is that just be open for business. If you want to make the mask thing a thing, make the mask thing a thing, fine. But businesses need to be open. People need to make a living. People need to be out and about. We've made this. It just drives me insane.

I don't understand the thing. thinking, when the thinking really should be, hey, if we think that if you wear a mask, it's better for you and the people around you. But if you don't, you know, so be it. This is America. I just drives me insane. But I was amazed at how many people were out and about. And, you know, not only at this Costco, but I mean in the entire shopping plaza. area that it's part of was jam packed and the people were in and out of uh in and out of the two

there's like two or three different huge shopping centers in one area and they were there they were there i don't know if they were spending any money i don't know how the restaurants are surviving by letting you know two people in to their restaurants my father-in-law went out to lunch on saturday and said there was like you know they were in this restaurant it was really good and they were, you know, was really good. And there were like eight people in there. And he's like, I don't know how they can stay open. I know.

And yet businesses are trying. They're trying. So these states that aren't allowing these places to be open for business, holy cow. We are ruining lives for years to come. And it has, it's got to stop. It's got to stop. All right, let's go to the break room.

something really, really cool to drink desperately. Oh, that is so, so good. All right, let's take a look at some of the headlines here in the break room on the magazine rack, as you, one of my favorites, oh my gosh, this lady was suing the university because her child died choking on pancakes during a pancake eating competition. You heard about this back in, I think, 2017. She was in the pancake eating contest at the university, and she died.

She choked eating pancakes, and she died. So the mother sued the university in a wrongful death lawsuit. Okay. Now, the headline is a mother of college student who died following pancake eating competition drops lawsuit. Oh, and I'm thinking, good. It's about freaking time. It's been, you know, almost two and a half, three years, and let's move on. It was an accident. It was part of a pancake eating contest. It was just tragic. That's all. well she dropped her lawsuit why that's right you guessed it there was a settlement the university just paid her off fine get out of here just dropped the lawsuit and here's some money we're

sorry that your daughter died from choking on pancakes from the pancake eating competition get out now the pancake eating competition was organized by a sorority at the university to benefit child abuse in America. Okay. She began to choke. And then two nursing students gave her treatment and were, and then she was taken to the hospital where she later died. And it was, you know, obviously tragic event out of something that was supposed to be fun. And how do you get a settlement from a university?

because your daughter just wanted to be part of a pancake eating contest. Okay? The lawsuit claimed that the university had approved the event. Yeah, it was a sorority event that they approved because it was for a good thing and they were having a pancake eating contest. Who among us hasn't been in a pancake eating contest? That's what I thought. And I never, I was only in, I don't know how many I've been in, but that's another story.

However, the university approved the event, despite, here's where the lawsuit and the settlement comes in, despite the dangers of quickly eating pancakes because of their thickness. I'm not even, it's not even funny. Well, I'm laughing. But come on. Despite the dangers of quickly eating pancakes because of. their thickness. This went on to

for two and a half years, right? For two and a half years. Until they finally made a settlement. Now they settled with the mom. Have a nice day. And drop your lawsuit. Now the university,

in turn, had sued the food service provider for providing, I guess, too thick a pancake. I guess. But that has been dropped as well. It's just amazing to me.

I mean, you know, we talk about stuff every day. And I love to be here. I love telling you the stories that we talk about. But sometimes it's just, it's just embarrassing. It's just embarrassing the times we live in. Now, on the flip side of that, if your child was the one who was part of this tragic event, Would you sue the university?

I'd like to say no. I would like to say no. But if the ambulance chaser came knocking on my door saying, hey, we can get you a few million from the university because they knew the dangers of quickly eating pancakes because of their thickness and they still approved this event, I might have to say, yeah, go ahead, give it a shot. See what happens.

Hey, another thing that you need to give it a shot is if you're listening to this show right now and you are not a subscriber to the podcast, give it a shot. Let's see what happens. Subscribe to Chewing the Fat. You can subscribe on a plethora of platforms. There's plenty out there, but you can choose, say, iTunes, IHeart Radio, Stitcher, Spotify. And subscribe to chewing the fat with Jeff Fisher. And then you're, you know, you're, you get alerted every day with, you know, with a new podcast uploads or downloads.

And, you know, you just enjoy the show. I try to steer away from, it's very difficult to steer, steer away from in-depth, deep dives into politics. And we can. I got, I, we can. I got no problem doing it. But I just feel like at the end of the day, You know, I'll let you know what's going on.

You'll have an idea of what's happening politically, and you'll have an idea of what's going on socially, and you'll have some idea of what's happening in the entertainment world and what's happening in real life on the streets, but it won't be so agonizing. So subscribe to chewing the fat. Now, we've talked about pigeons before on the show, and you say, you have? Of course, we've talked about the pigeons that Mike Tyson raises. We've talked about someone was putting hats on pigeons in Vegas. We haven't heard any more about that.

It was really funny. I mean, it was horrible that these people were gluing these hats on the pigeons. Horrible. But so we've talked about pigeons. I've talked about how I, when I was a little kid, one of the guys that I used to for her was a big-time pigeon farmer not really a farmer he raised pigeons because he used them for communication he was a he was a you know they used the pigeons for communication during different wars and he was all for that mr wallace so he had pigeons so i man i'm a fan of pigeons i love them

however i don't know how much i would actually pay for a pigeon I would love to, you know, I don't know what Mike Tyson pays for his pigeons. You know, I know it costs money for upkeep and you got to have cages and you got to feed them. I get it. So I find out that a wealthy Chinese pigeon racing fan. So now we are not only raising pigeons for communication and we think they're a beautiful bird with or without a hat, we're using them to race. All right with pigeon races

Now I'm all for it If we can strap a drone on that bad boy and watch the race Let's go I'm for it Or maybe we have a drone follow the pigeons I don't know I'd be a You could actually do that

Where do you go? Where'd he go? So Chinese Man I'm saying man because it says a fan I could be a woman but I doubt it paid 1.6 million euros, $1.9 million for a Belgian bread pigeon. Okay, now you got me. I didn't realize that the Belgian bread racing pigeon was the one that you wanted, but I guess it was.

so at the end of a two-week auction at the Pippa Pigeon Center, two Chinese bidders operating under the pseudonyms Super Dooper and Hitman drove up the price by 280,000 euros, $325,000, leaving the previous record that Belgian bred Armando fetched last year. Okay. Okay. So they even call this a hobby. It's a hobby. And we're spending a million bucks on a racing pigeon. Wow. So I guess top breeders relying on generations of family experience can now sell their birds for prices unheard of merely a decade ago. And often China is their destination. What are they doing with them in China? What are they doing with them in China? Okay.

I want to know what's going on. Now, that means that if we're selling pigeons, there's got to be breeders. There's got to be breeders that are showing documented bloodline pigeons. This pigeon comes from the top racing pigeon of 1984. And then the bird was, how long do birds live? What, 15 years maybe? Tops?

Tops! A bird lives 15 years. Now, some birds will live longer. Some parrots and stuff like that will live longer in captivity. But out in the wild, what are you looking at? Maybe 15 years? Okay, okay, 20. 20 years.

And racing? No way, right? If you look at it in human terms, then a bird, Bread for racing would be what? Maybe ready to race in a year or two? And then has maybe a good three to seven years of racing, right where they're the fastest and there's the strongest. So now you're up to 10 years and now you've got another 10. So you've got another 10 to maybe breed?

If it's a top racer, you breed? I mean, how about I've got, we have got to talk to someone here on chewing the fat about bird breeding. and especially bird breeding for racing pigeons. We are going to find that out here on chewing the fat. There's not going to be another show that knows about pigeons and pigeon breeding and race breeding better than the people who listen to this show. Apparently, these particular pigeons are top-notch. and that's according to Pascal Bogdijin, head of the Belgian Pigeon Federation.

And I know what you're saying, you're saying, well, Jeff, you idiot, of course, of course the head of the Belgian Pigeon Federation is saying that everybody is interested in their pigeons. I know. I know. So we have got, we're going to find out what the heck is going on and why Belgium is the

breeding grounds for some of the top pigeon racers in the world. Now, he goes on to say that pigeon breeding demands constant attention every single day of the year. He said that there are now only about 18,000 pigeon fancier federation people, racers. that, you know, are out there. And he said that pigeon breeding demands constant attention every single day of the year. And to be the best, it has to be your life's work. For some, it may seem boring day in, day out,

winter, summer, always those pigeons. he's already given up he's already given up he's already given up his life day and day out winter summer it's always those pigeons this day's a pigeon that's day for prison so they're saying now that uh and they're trying what he's trying to do is that people are now going to get into the business because of the money right and they see an opportunity to make some money and he's saying no don't do that think again because it's not about the money. Okay, Mr. I was just reading about a $1.9 million pigeon.

Sure thing, it's not about the money. We have so much to get to, you know, to talk, I mean, Facebook and Twitter, Zuckerberg and Dorsey are going before a Senate questioning session again to. tomorrow, for those of you listening live on November 16th, 2020. I guess they're going to be talking about election censorship. Good luck. Good luck. We know how those hearings go.

I mean, Zuckerberg, we already know, told Facebook employees Biden won and people need to know the election was fair. Oh. Okay. No problem. So it's a done deal then because Zuckerberg said so. All right, no problem. And I'm sure Jack Dorsey feels the same way, too. We'll see what Jack is looking like.

See if he's back from his, you know, month-long retreat. From yoga land and meditation land. We'll see if he got a haircut and trimmed up some of the beard. You know, looks the part. Looks the part better than he did at the last hearing. But overall, these hearings are turning into the same thing. A couple senators. bitch and moan a couple senators say what a great thing they're doing and we move on with our lives

just the way it is we are in such a strange place in this country right now and really the world but we are in such a strange place the election was stolen now we didn't you stole the election no we didn't you stole the election he's a dictator no you're a dictator no i can't be a dictator never mind he's a dictator. It's just amazing. And you look at just the headlines alone show the division because it's, every other one is just completely different than the one before.

It's just incredible place. Biden wins as the dawn of a new progressive era. Don't get two picked up because Republicans have picked up another house seat and that shows that we're not ready. for that progressive America. Okay, sure thing. I believe you. 100%. Yep, you got me.

No problem. We're going to have mandates all over the place, are you? Because other states are saying, nope. We're not going to follow those mandates. Go ahead and try. Do your best, but we're not going to follow them. Well, we need them. Yep, okay, that's what you say.

I mean, the numbers are going up as far as coronavirus. We don't believe the numbers. Those numbers are wrong. But the numbers are going up. So they're wrong. They're being tallied wrong. Okay. The voting machines were wrong.

The voting machines were hacked. Okay. Prove it. They're saying now that the army has confiscated the Dominion voting system servers that were kept in Germany. Okay. Do I, you know, am I somebody that wants to have, what I want to have is proof. If you have the feeling that the election isn't right, if you have that election, if you have that feeling that this election wasn't right, if you feel like how is Joe Biden stuck in his basement, become president of the United States with the most.

votes ever over Obama and you feel that can't be right there's got to be proof because other than that we're just stuck in the same he said she said and that's it and it's not a fun place to be but that's where we're at so I don't know what to tell you I mean you can tell me that Trump is the fascist and the dictator, and then you can tell me that you want Joe Biden to eliminate the electoral college, reject bipartisanship, and just do everything that the left and the socialist left wants him to do. Okay, sure, no problem. Go ahead. You believe that? I just, I don't know where we're at anymore. I just don't know where we're at anymore. I don't. Okay. I am excited, though. I am excited about being able to talk to John Douglas, the author of Mind Hunter, and his latest book is The Killer Shadow. I read it this weekend. It's an awesome read. I love John Douglas. And, I mean, he's a founding father. He's a founding father of criminal profiling and modern criminal investigative analysis. I mean, the behavioral science unit is.

him man he's the guy that laid the groundwork and we get to talk to him today on chewing the fat as part of the podcast version of this show which will give you another example of why you should subscribe to chewing the fat okay yeah you should subscribe to that and coming up in the next couple days i'm going to post the video of talking to john on my youtube channel uh chewing the fat with jeff fisher as well So just remember You know, I'm looking forward to talking to John And it's going to be exciting But I want you to take with you today

Just remember It's not about the money Hey Stream and subscribe to more Blaze media content At the blaze.com slash podcasts Welcome to Chewing the Fat John Douglas author You know him from

Mind Hunter The Killer Across table his latest book the killer shadow with uh mark olshecker again uh welcome to chewing the fat john it's good to see you good to talk to you again i am such a fan uh you thank you for coming on chewing the fat today i appreciate it oh thank you so one of the things that uh i found fascinating was before we get into the killer shadow and uh start delving into uh how you got involved and the importance of this case. I really found it fascinating how you, you know,

everybody thinks that you have to put your mind into the mind of the killer. That's what you guys do. That's what behavioral science is. But really, one of the most important things to help keep you sane, and I'm assuming you're sane now, I don't know that to be 100% true, is to put your mind into the mind of the victims, right? how important that is. And that really, that struck me.

I thought, you know, that really turned, turn my thought a little bit. No, it's exactly right, Jeff. And that's the hard part, too, because see, walking in the shoes of the victim, because what I try to do is I try to reconstruct in my mind, what the victim was experiencing, what the victim was seeing at the time, besides what the subject, what he was doing, what he was saying, and putting it together, and then you have the crime scene as the end result here. and analyzing that.

But at the end of the day, I can walk out of the shoes of the subject, but it's really difficult with the victim. And I'll be lying to you if I said it doesn't spill into my personal life. I take it home with me. I want to interact my own children and my wife and things that I've seen. It's very, very difficult. But you have to walk in the shoes of both. Well, look, I mean, you quote at the end of this book from Nici about whoever

fights monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster and when you gaze long enough into the abyss the abyss will gaze back into you uh how is that abyss gazing back into you these days well now it's okay i'm i can control my life i can control i can say no to things but but but uh i'm much better but uh fans will know that that uh who followed my my work it's taken And it's toll on me over the years, nearly dying in, you know, 83. Even my fellow colleagues, I'm like a dinosaur right now. They're dying off all around me. My original partner, wrestler, Roy Hazelwood, another great guy.

He died. Others are from the stress of it. They're physically, had issues psychologically. It made me a better leader for them. After going through what I did, I nearly died on the Green River Murder case, He came home in a wheelchair. I was out of work through five months of rehabilitation because I was paralyzed. My brain split on the right side and from the virus I had in a coma a week.

Wow. And then I came out of it. And then my children, when they saw me, when I came home after a month, it was right around this time of the year. They were shocked. Every time I would leave them after that, they would cry. They didn't want me to leave because the way I left, the way I came back. And I was out of work five months to do rehab and then went back to work. Then they finally gave me the resources.

But even that, again, it takes, you just can't train. Like, I couldn't train you, Jeff, like, in a couple of weeks or anyone. It takes about two years of training someone in this area. And then about five years you're getting really good at. Like any job, any job, about five years. It's not just profiling. But then in this kind of work, it could be yours to have burnout. You know, how are you being treated, the volume of the work, and there's burnout.

Well, they mentioned in the one serial killer movie, Citizen X, where they talked about how the FBI rotates their men. Is that still true? No, no. No, it wasn't ever true. It was just a movie. Well, they rotate them in the field as field agents, but my unit, if it's my unit, no rotation there.

But in the field, on the Hoover days, we rotate a lot. Now it's pretty much, you can go through, you go through your career maybe two offices, you know, and you can end up some places and want to stay there. But, and with me, who doesn't want to be at Dubuque?

Yeah, that's right. That's the thing. So, so I was in Detroit. You see, I was, and it was, it was,

my first office was Detroit. And I got a pamphlet, how to survive in Detroit. That would, and I got there, there was 800 homicides a year. There were places we couldn't even go in certain areas.

If we knew a fugitive was there to make an arrest because of snite. I mean, but it was a great place to learn. You don't want to live there, but it was a great place to learn to learn this stuff. You know, so I went from there. Then I go to Milwaukee, which after Detroit was like Sleepy Hollow, but we had a lot. Bank robbers still had the fugitives and I learned a lot there. Went to graduate school, picked up a couple of degrees.

And then I got hostage negotiator, SWAT team member, and then they sent me back to behavioral science unit as a promotion. Before, yeah, before we, you know, get into. the latest edition of the killer's shadow. Did you, could you ever imagine where the behavioral science unit, you know, is today? Did you ever think back in 80, 82, 84, after your sickness or whatever, you know, at some point in the 80s,

did you think this could be like it is today, like it is right now in 2020? Well, in 1977, no, was when I came back to Quantico, they were dabbling and profiling. But by 1980, by around this case here, then it would start to, people could see, headquarters could see it. And then I got the Unabomber case. And I got the Tylenol case in Chicago.

Then from this case, we had Buffalo's 22 caliber killer in Buffalo, New York. A guy was shooting people and cutting the hearts out of two cab drivers. And then we get the big one. We get the Atlanta child killings. I know the big kidnapping, Civil Rights case. That was all, see, this was all happening. And that's why I'm breaking down. That's why, as you said earlier, all this work is coming in.

Besides cases you'd even heard of before, and then calling you constantly in the nighttime. And again, it's not being widely accepted. Just because a sheriff invites you out on a case, it doesn't mean that the detectives you're going to be working with necessarily want to see you. And so it was pretty stressful in those days. So let's, you know, we might as well, we can get into the, into the latest book and the breakdown of Joseph Paul Franklin. It was fascinating how this was one of the different cases that you knew that this was going, you know, people were looking at because it was different. Right. It was different.

It wasn't, it was different from the fact that you knew who is. this guy was. Right. So it would make it easy. We don't have to kind of paint a picture of an unknown subject here. And here we know who it is. So this is going to be an assessment of, remember a show years ago, this is your life. There was a show called This Is Your Life. And people be behind the curtain talking about, he's trying to guess who it is, talking about this celebrity. Well, that's what I always look at doing assessments is, this is your life, you know, John Douglas, Jeff Fisher. This is, and who is this person? What, what are his, what are his, his likes, dislikes, strengths, weaknesses, vulnerabilities.

And if you got that information, man, you can really take advantage of, just like Manson could take advantage of his followers here. So it's the same thing I was going to do with Franklin. When he didn't know who he was, we knew who he was, we didn't know where he was. And that's the biggie. And he's on a loose. He's going to probably kill some more when he gets the opportunity. He's already killed 20 now.

They're putting up 20 cases together. So where is he going to end up? And so, you know, I said mobile area. I mean, if I would have said, you know, like Seattle, Washington or something, or he said he ended up in Seattle, but I said Mobile, I probably never would have developed criminal profiling. They would have shipped me out on the next Greyhound bus to some off the wall city. But that was proven incorrect, John Douglas,

the latest book, Killer Shadow, that you can get. wherever books are sold. See, Jeff, with my work, it's a simple formula, why plus how equals who. So the reason I wanted to do the interviews in prison is because we know who did it, I want to figure out the whys and how is of the behavior. Now, this is not a profile.

I'm not profiling an unsub case, unknown subject case. I'm going to be profiling a case where we know the guy, and what they're going to want from me at headquarters is they don't know where he is in the United States. Am I able to do an assessment of him and predict where he may go to next because right now we don't know where he where he is so I have to do kind of like this is your life Jeff Fisher or this is your life on Joseph Paul Franklin

so so I went up to headquarters and I got boxes and boxes of information on him and they wanted the uh the assessment done in 24 hours but they're also telling me man don't screw up this one because I'm trying to develop this profiling program you know I'm trying you know and not everyone's for me. Not all FBI is for me. This is going to be the first case I'm doing before for the FBI. Later on, we'll come a whole bunch of bureau cases. Everything I was doing was the local cases here. But if you screw this one up, you're going to be working cattle rustling cases in Butte, Montana. Well, there were many people, right? I mean, there were many people that weren't a fan of your work inside the Bureau itself, right? You know what the behavioral science, BS, right? And that's what I did.

You went really, and this offended people was eventually when I became program manager, the profiling, and then unit chief. I removed the BS. I went strictly to investigate a support type of unit. That's the kind of stuff that we were doing. So we didn't know, you know, they didn't know where he was, but the nature of the beast is that we all have comfort zones. All of us. I mean, if I want to relax, let me go down to the river or go have a drink, you know, somewhere, a bar, favorite bar, whatever it is, sure.

And criminals are the same way. They have, and what you have to do is figure out their strengths and weaknesses. And if you know mine, you could, you would know how to manipulate me. You're not to take advantage of me of my weakness, my vulnerabilities. And so the same thing here with him, and it's something that you did a minute ago, which is trying to be true, it's that his only compassion or drive really was towards the wife, the ex-wifference. wife and that daughter. And so

everything else, he was traveling all over the country doing these killings of interracial couples, Jews, and I said, his comfort zone is Mobile Alabama, a wife, ex-wife, a daughter, and he's a serial bank robber.

He made a lot of money knocking off banks and get out of him, you know, with all them. So that's where he'll be gravitating toward next. That was his home base. He felt comfortable in that neck the woods, right? And even though it was kind of weird because he would knock off banks, but also he'd go to blood banks, go to blood banks and sell his blood for five bucks with a plasma.

And that's how eventually he'll be arrested. But it was so kind of, so funny in retrospect, as I go out with this, the bureau, okay, here's Douglas's analysis, and here we should put our resources down south, and Mobile and further south. He spotted in Mobile. He spotted in, and and information is provided to the FBI. And the agent charge, we called the special agent charge of the FBI office, contacts me. And he said, John, this is agent so-and-so, has headed the mobile office.

He was just spotted in a mobile. What bank or savings alone will he be robbing next? Well, that is a great karma, right? Let me get my hat. I said, what? I said, I can't provide you. It's like we always say with regular profile. filing homicide, like we're not going to provide the name and address of the guy. So I said,

I gave you the city. I said, you have to, I don't know where he's going to go, but that's his comfort zone. And then he was spotted. Then eventually he meander on down to Florida. And that's where he'd be nabbed in a blood bank. And then I got involved in this coaching of the agents. And then for the interrogation, yeah. I didn't interview about eight years later with that secret service agent. You would think, Jeff, that the secret service would have had a program like mine. No, you would think that. They did not have a behavioral science a unit back then.

We had it. I did cases for Secret Service where they were threats made against political figures and it turned out fairly well so then they heard about our program then they started sending their agents down and the agent I was with Ken Baker

we went around the country interviewing assassin personality so it doesn't always have to be a political figure but the assassin types of interviewing like James Earl Ray and Squeaky Fromm and Sandra Good. Those two shot at Gerald Ford, Arthur Bremer, who shot George Wallace, and then others of that mentality.

So it's not a sexual component in those types of defenders. There's this hatred, this bitterness, and anyone can be a victim here. I mean, you may think, here you are leaving, say, a synagogue, or you're walking down the street, and here's the guy, has you in his sights just because of he knows your, you know, your faith is. A believer, yeah. Right. A believer is something he hates. It's just incredible. Yeah. And that's the thing that made was so unusual with him. And like I said, and what made it difficult in those days is, and it's not really, we have computers today, but we didn't have this computers and sharing information in 80. And even today you'll see there are pockets in the

country where departments may not be sharing information within the joining department. or the FBI, you know, may not share information. So this guy, Franklin, because he was moving all around, no one, and using different weapons, no one really put it together until that arrest in Kentucky, and then they put it together, but then the guy, and he escapes, yeah. Which was just amazing that someone could, you even think, you know, I know, back in the day, how difficult it would be to, get away and yet these guys do.

I mean, they have, it's a focus of I've got to get away. One of the things that I found fascinating was that no matter what, with the computers and the sharing of information, whether you're, you know, putting post-it notes up on the wall, whether you're, you know, spreading it out on a library table. It really breaks down to, you know, shoe leather, good old-fashioned police work. most of the time, doesn't it? That's right. And I never would

oversell what I do. Never. You come to somebody like me after all your leads, logical leads have been exhausted. You can't beat the old you said the old shoe leather, knocking on doors. And the problem is, though, is that in some cases, you may get a case where there's just a lack of experience,

a lack of experience on the part of, of investigators and what it's really a shame that when you don't have a department like Boulder Colorado John Bonae Ramsey case you get a department that just doesn't get the murders they don't get they get one a year if that and the last one they had before Ramsey was the uh it was not was not solved and so you have you have a mindset of the detective a detective who was a narcotics officer a different mindset than a homicide investigator And because of the small department, what they do is they rotate. Okay, now you're drugs, now you're homicide, now your traffic.

So here you go, you have a narcotics officer. Now, a narcotics officer brain is different because I'm targeting, say, because I'm targeting this guy named Jeff Fisher. I know he's dealing in drugs. I know, I know, okay, this is what we got to do to get him. You know, we gather our team investigators around you. Now, you can move that mindset now over here into a homicester. side. You know, then I know the Ramses did it. I know I did it. And I know they're responsible for it.

I just got to figure it out. So what happens is, is you're laying this theory. Yeah, I mean, you're losing all kinds of focus from anything else. Exactly right. You're letting a theory drive an investigation. And you may accept some evidence to support your theory, but then you're not accepting other evidence, which it pulls you away from your theory. So it's, but you cannot, there's no substitute for good, thorough police work. But if you don't, if you don't have the resources, my gosh, you go to federal agencies, state agencies together.

And we've gotten much better, particularly terrorism, domestic, international terrorism. Domestic. Domestic is tough, though, still, Jeff, because you and I, we used to turn on probably more of me than you, Walter Cronkite for the news, right? Now you have news 24 hours a day, which is entertaining. And it's not really news, it's people's opinion and talking heads. And it's totally different. And now, too, someone like Franklin can click on the computer, find whatever hate groups he wants to belong to.

There are hundreds, hundreds of them there. And go to one where you believe they support your philosophy or your hatred. And the person running that, say it's a website, say the website, that person he or she probably more times than I'll be he doesn't have to take any action he just has to fuel the fire yeah with the rhetoric and and get somebody not not everyone is going to be affected by what is by words here but you know when they marched on Charlottesville three years ago and and had marches in the city and blood and soil the Jews must die rhetoric from the from the Nazi party it's hard to predict that so

someone in that group is good to be the one to break away. Break away and drive a car into the crowd. You know, it's hard to do it. So it's made it difficult, it makes it difficult for law enforcement. And you don't have the resources. And the emphasis was on international terrorism after 9-11. Sure. And today, you know, the Bureau works over 300 different violations.

And you can only do so much. So you really have to rely on people out there recognizing. characteristics. Let me just give you, can I give you Franklin's background? Yeah, yeah, because we're talking about the latest book, The Killer's Shadow, with John Douglas, absolutely. Yeah, Joseph Paul Franklin's background was very similar to other offenders who I interviewed violent criminals, but we have Franklin going off anti-Semitic killing interracial couples, but the dysfunction in the background. He was abused verbally and physically by his father. Fathers were drunk. hated him his father would take off for periods of time leaving the family really

penniless the mother was also very very abusive toward him as well and here you have Franklin young boy playing with a shade of a window shade with his brother and they undo it in such a way where a spring flies out of the shade strikes him in his right eye Franklin's eye they rush him the mother takes them to the emergency room rushes him down there the doctor says they look bring him back in a couple of months we can save the eye but right now it's got to heal the mother never brings him back to the doctors he loses this is a sniper now he loses the sight of the right eye loses sight you want to talk about overcompensation now no kidding yeah he will now

go to the range and practice he wanted to be a cop so bad and when he found out too that to a neighbor who happened to be police officer that no you can't be a police officer what no you've lost you lost your eye. He has to have both eyes. And so you talk about this over-compensation. And then he drops out at a school and then he joins these hate groups down south in the

Alabama area and the American Nazi party, the clan. And he realizes though that these organizations are just infiltrated by FBI. We have informants all over the place in there. Because he, why does he know that? Because every once in a while we take him, we take him down. Plus he would tell

me the same thing. that he soon found out that they're a bunch of mostly all talk, no action. And here he is all dressed up for the dance. He's got to go, man. He's got to do something. And so he breaks away. He keeps trying to find the right group, the right group. And finally, he can't find the right group.

And he becomes our lone, it's the lone wolf. Yeah, it's him. That's the lone wolf. If somebody else will help, I'll do it myself. Yeah. And he starts off pseudo-vind. Island. He's up in Maryland and he sees an interracial couple in the cars, tailing them, and then they stop, he stops and gets out of the car and he maces them. He maces them in the car.

And he leaves. But then he realized that's not the way to do it in the future. So he's also learned how to make a bomb through books and he gets pretty proficient in making a bomb. He tries to blow up a, a kill a rabbi in his house. They're out at the time. And, The only thing that's killed is an animal, the rabbi's dog. So he learns from that. Then he's going to go to weaponry. And he keeps changing weaponry, but high-powered rifles and scraping the ID off. He'd even leave the weapon at the scene.

Here it is, buddy. Trying to figure out who did it. Yeah, you can't do it. Yeah. And, you know, fortunately, you know, you and your cohorts finally did, and that's what's behind the killer shadow, which you can pre-order, or just go out and get the darn thing. It's well worth of read The Killer Shadow, John Douglas.

Thank you so much. I know you're up against the clock here. I just wanted to catch you. I would love to talk to you some more I've got. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about if you are familiar with the latest Samuel Little, the serial killer out of here in Texas where we call him in Texas. And the most prolific guy now, have you done any? No, I'd love to interview

before he died, but it goes back, Sam Little, goes back to a guy he's all over the country, he's traveling. The victim is who he's attacking, or we call high-risk victims when we categorize low, medium high, high-risk victims. So when you start doing, we call the dictumology, a profile

of the victim, oh my gosh, she comes in contact this victim with so many different men. It makes it difficult even to determine the race, say the race of the offender. And luckily it was DNA. We never would have got him. Yeah.

What were the Golden Gate killer? Right. Another one, DNA. I did it when he was the East Area rapist. He was an East Area rapist for us before he started doing murder. And he was a rapist where he'd go into a house, husband and wife, husband could be there. But he gets the husband on the floor, puts a teacup and saucer on the back, the small of the back of the husband, goes and sexually assaults the wife. If I hear that, any glass break or that hit the floor, I'm going to kill your wife.

you know and so he did that for long time he's known as the east area rapist before he graduated into homicides but it was DNA again that uh did it these guys you've got to be a big fan of people giving their DNA so we could get around from the outside thank you much i wanted to see my background and everything too hopefully that of course mix it up with some crime scene of course john douglas thank you very much i appreciate you joining me with the fact of that i appreciate it appreciate thank you thanks