Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher - Ep 7 | This is Chewing El Chapo | Guest: Brad Meltzer

Episode Date: January 16, 2019

Looks like Jeffy took money from Joaquín Archivaldo Guzmán Loera just like Mexican President Pena Nieto. Also Brad Meltzer joins to discuss living his American Dream. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

So we find out from testimony yesterday in the El Chapo trial in New York going on that from a drug lord who worked closely with Mr. Gousman, El Chapo, from 2007 to 2013. And that's, you know, during the time when he was hiding, going through all these ranches and Sierra Madre mountains and away from everybody. What are you laughing at? Oh, nothing. No, keep on. Why are you? No, no, no, keep on. You're fine.

You don't like the way I said something? Oh, no, no, no. It's just funny hearing you try to say this in English. Those are Spanish words. Silamadre, madres. I don't know what that is. What do you mean? What are they called?

I don't know. They're Sierra. Don't even start with me. Don't. It's just we just started. Now, according to testimony in the trial, El Chapo paid the former president Enrique.

Well, you know who he is. The former president, Rick, Rick. The former president, Rick, Rick Penanito. No, no, no, no. Rick Pananito. No, no. What?

Former president of Mexico, Enrique Peña Nieto. That's what I just said. Rick Pananito. What is that Penanito? What is that Pananito? I didn't have no idea. There's no Penanito.

Rick Pananita. Peña Nieto. How do you say? Former Mexican president. Enrique Peña Nieto. Took a hundred million dollar bribe from El Chapo. Dear El Chapo. Call me?

A hundred million bucks. This is chewing El Chapo. This is now you're listening to. Chewing El Chapo. By the way, El Chapo's real name is Joaquin Guzman Loera. That's what I said. I don't know why you're... I mean, it's exactly what I said.

Kind of. A hundred, now, first of all, that's not a surprise, right? I mean, it's just like... I mean, that's probably more than you would have thought, maybe, you know? Maybe. But, I mean, El Chapo and what's his real name? L. Joaquin

Guzman Loera. He would, you know, you figured maybe 50 million and look, this is what you're going to get or I kill you. You do what I say, right? But he gave him 100 million. I mean, it's 100 million to, what's his name? Joaquin Guzman Loera. 100 million to him is, that's 100 bucks to you and me. 100, he's got pallets of money.

10 dollars. $100. 100 bucks, I'm still kind of like, that's $10 to. 100 million? $100 million is $10 to Joaquin. And he paid that to the former Mexican president. Enrique Peña Nieto. 100 million bucks.

El Chapo is staying in Mexico forever for 100 million bucks. 100 million bucks? This is chewing El Chapo, baby. And really, you can't do that, though, because, you know, once you do that, I mean, you are, you belong to him. You belong to, you belong to. Enrique Peña Nieto Tough to find good help

You belong to Enrique Peña Nieto No You do not belong to the former Mexican president

If you take the money You belong to If you take the money Then you You belong to Joaquin Guzman Loera

I told you it's tough To find good help By the way Can we stop giving this back Can we stop? It's 2019. Can we give him normal names?

Like El Chapo? Well, El Chapo, I mean, he's not like a young spring chicken, right? I mean, he's an older guy. He's in his 50s now, but I guess. I don't even know how old he is, to be honest. I don't know, El Chops. It's got to be at least in his 50s now, right? Yeah, okay, so he's 61.

I mean, I figured that, you know, mid-50s into his early 60s, because he's been doing it for a while. So, again, $100 million from... Joaquin Guzman Loera to the former Mexican president Enrique Peña Nieto That's lunch That's lunch

I mean he was buying all those ranches All around in the Sierra Madre Mountains Yeah still trying to find that name on the store Where is that? What do you mean? The Sierra Madre Mountains That's where he was staying Why is it with an Italian accent

This is not Italy This is Mexico You roll your R's and your ends What do you mean? Say it again? Sierra Madre. See you're saying it with Italian. This is that in Italy.

This is in Mexico. No, it's Italian-Mexican. That's Italian-Mexican. I mean, duh. Speaking of Mexican. I'm sorry. Speaking of Hispanics, the big video that's made the rounds

of the little kid getting smashed with the birthday cake. I think it's a birthday cake. It might be a celebration birthday cake or, you know, hey, you, you know, you survived first grade. Mexican school. I don't know what it is.

But I'm told. I saw the video last night and I thought, you know, I don't want to be upset because people are upset about it because I think it's probably something to do with some sort of tradition. And then I saw Chris Cruz, his tweet, and it made it, I knew it. It was some kind of every, every, his comment was like every Puerto Rican kid has had this done to them. Now, this video was from Columbia.

but so that it's not just a Puerto Rican thing, which I kind of thought it would be because trust me, that's something they would do. But, so it's got to be a South American thing. But you're telling me, so you've had this done to you. Yes, this was done to me many times.

Boy, that explains a lot. Many birthdays. That explains a lot. But I tell you this, it's not fun receiving it, but giving it, ooh, that is fun. Now, as a kid, do you know it's coming? Yes.

So. You know when your birthday comes and we're singing the happy birthday song and that song comes to an end, you're screwed. Now, you always put the candles on the cake or the candles separately? Candles, there's no such thing as candles. Okay. Yeah. You just. Candles are what we use for light.

There's no electricity, Jeff. Okay. Thank you. Not wasting. We're not wasting a candle lights for you to blow. You're lucky if you got a cake. Yeah. And if you get one, we're going to, you're getting.

That's two though. That's two though, right? Because you got, look, you got to give the kids some cake, right? Well, usually grandma makes one for you. The smashing cake and then one cake for you. Yes, yes. Everybody gets to smash it and then you get a cake for you. That's nice.

I kind of like that. The only problem I have with that video is the wasting of the liquid. You never had waterboard on you, whatever? No, no. You don't have water. Yeah, and you just waste a, you just wasted breakfast and shower time. How are you going to shower? Right.

How are you going to eat breakfast to next day? So that's the only trouble in the thing of that whole video is you wasted water. If it was water, you just can't tell what it is. And the eggs breakfast for the morning. What do you think they just got carried away? I think there's this a Colombian thing at Puerto Rico saves water. I think they got a little bit carried away. But that's normal.

And stop calling child abuse. It is not child abuse. Oh, no. The kid knows. The kid knows. The kid knows he's getting wiped out with Kig. Are you seeing everybody else all excited because, oh my God, it's my turn to do it. someone else.

Right. That's all that is. But they did get a little carry with because you wasting eggs and you waste some water. But it could be a Columbia thing. Right. That might, you know, add to it. Yes. We're better than Puerto Rico, that kind of thing.

Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. All traditions do that. But it's a tradition. I mean, it's not a big deal. I mean, it's part of the deal.

It's part of the deal. It's part of growing up in a... It's okay. It's been going on for years. You know why you know about it now? Social media. Yes. Thank you.

Thank you for saying that. thank you. It just drives me insane. So now we have to be outraged. I'm addicted to outrage. Am I promoting a Gled Beck thing again? I think you are. I think you are.

Shoot me. Yeah. You know what? I think Glebeck needs to turn into El Chapo. I think he needs to turn into Enrique Pena Nieto. No, that's the former president.

I don't want Glead to turn into him. All right. Although if Glenn takes the $100 million from, like I said, if Glenn takes the $100 million from, Joaquin Guzman I know there was another one on there seriously

let me shut this place down just shut it off, just turn it off don't even get his name! What are you doing? So if Glenn takes the 100 million from Joaquin Guzman Loera

that turns him into Enrique Peña Nietzio and I want a piece of the pie. I want a piece of that pie and I'll take it. You're listening to the Blaze CRTV El Chapo

That's the new app In fact We're going to take away For 100 million Well maybe not 100 million El Chapo is going to have to I mean he's got Isn't his money frozen

Yeah How is it going to be? Yeah but he's got pallets He's got pallets He's got pallets in somewhere I don't think Joaquin Guzman Lueira Has any more money

I would disagree with that You know he's got pallets somewhere The ex-wives were showing Where he was hiding money for them You know stacks of money for them in different houses. Come on, stacks and stacks.

They just did what they want. And those days, his money is frozen. How do you freeze a barn full of pallets of cash? You don't. That's not a bank? You don't. No, that is not. That is the El Chap.

That is the... Joaquin-Gusman-Luera Bank? That's his bank. Oh, that's his bank. That's his bank. So you see a barn and there's ten guys standing around it with guns? That's the Joaquin-Gusman-Lu-Luera Bank. You ain't lying it is.

It will be Huachin-Gu-Ru-Coh-E. King, Gusman, Lohra banko. Yes. Yeah. You call it whatever you want. Yeah. All right. I am so thirsty.

We haven't been to the break room in a while. Let's go to the break room and get a drink. Come on. You know, the caffeine-free Coke zero is good. It's still Coke zero, but it's not the Coke zero, Zero sugar. I called them by its real name now. They've hooked me. I'm done.

It's not even Coke Zero anymore. It's Coke Zero Sugar. So we're in the break room. Bob Costas. You know who Bob Costas is? Sports broadcaster for NBC. Don't tell me now. You don't know who Bob Costas is.

He's worked for NBC sports for 40 years. Good for him. Well, he's done with NBC. They're done. 40 years. Over. Now, he still works for Major League Baseball.

He's employed by the Major League Network, Major League Baseball Network. And this is Bob. He's at 66 years old. He's open to hosting a talk show if the right opportunity comes along. You wait for somebody to come along and tell you how great you are, Bob, and how wonderful you are? He'd like to do a hybrid show of his HBO show and later.

He would like that we hosted on HBO for a number of years, five or six years on HBO. One of the things that, now he had a problem, remember he got removed from the network's Super Bowl pre-show. Now, according to the stories, they were talking about him getting cut because of his comments about concussions to football and stuff. And he said, no, that was not true. He said that I was done with it. I didn't like football anymore. He didn't like football anymore.

He doesn't like football, really. So his words were, I was ambivalent feelings about football. do you Bob maybe because you never played because you're a wuss oh wait did I say that alone he didn't I don't I honestly I don't know

honestly I don't I'm just making I was just making a joke he doesn't appear to be of a of a stature of a human being that would play the sport of football what's his name again Bob Hope

Bob Hope is dead Bob Costas has done with NBC. Bob Hope would have been probably 110 today. He died a long time ago. Anyway, Bob Koss is done with NBC.

So you've got that to look forward to. We've got some strong headlines that I find fascinating. This is something that you'll love. And we can look forward to clips coming from this show. John Kasich, the ex-Ohio governor and former and probably 2020 presidential hopeful, is joining CNN as an analyst. Yay! And according to this, he's among the GOP's most sought-after voices for 2020 Insight.

Is he? John Kasich. and it's a stretch to call him part of the GOP. I'm sorry. Is this a guy that his dad was a mailman? That's correct from Ohio, yes. Okay, I just want to make sure. And I'm sure he'll tell us, that's the start open of his show on CNN.

Postal Service worker. Really. Sears is going to live to see another day. Company chairman Eddie Lambert was successful in his takeover bid during the department store chains of bankruptcy auction. $5.2 billion deal. He bought it for that? Keep 425 stores open. save up to 45,000 jobs. The deal still needs to be approved by a bankruptcy judge later this week.

But the judge is done. Yeah. A massive, I saw a picture of this and obviously I'll hold it up for you to look at. Here, look. Oh, wow. What is that? I know. That's a massive alien-looking ice disc in a river in Maine.

Some residents are comparing it to the 300-foot-wide crop circle. But it grows and it gets smaller and it gets smaller. It's larger and it grows really strange. And I'm not sure what was causing that in the river. But it's good to think that it's some kind of alien crop circle of ice. Can we get coast to coast on that? Absolutely. But why get coast to coast when you've got chewing the fat?

McDonald's no longer has the trademark for Big Mac in the EU. Wow. A court ruled in favor of a fast food chain's supermax allowing other companies to use. the name. If ever there was a reason for the United Kingdom to leave the EU, this is it. When McDonald's, McDonald's, a worldwide fast food chain, doesn't have the rights to Big Mac?

Now, here's a problem. We're done. We're doomed. Now, speaking of the UK, we've got, we had, Theresa May survived the, the vote of no confidence.

What does that mean? It means she stays in charge. So is they voted confident she will leave? If they vote incompetent, yeah, they drag her down the streets. Okay. Yeah, they hook up a wagon of horses

and they drag her down the street. They drag her all through the Sierra Madre Mountains. Seems like it's like 1700 kind of style. It is. It's weird. But why they would take her all the way to Sierra Madre Mountains? In Mexico, and Joaquin, Guzman, Laredos.

I mean, I don't know why they do that, but that's what they do. It's their deal. That's why we left. That's why we left. I don't know. But they also voted yesterday against Theresa May's Brexit deal with the EU. It was a sight to see and here. I love this guy.

Do we know his name? The eyes to the right, 306, the nose to the left, 325. Oh, you are! Tehrabodry! They want to take her out in hand. The eyes to the right, 306, the nose to the left, 325. So the nose have it, the nose have it. Unlock!

Unlock! I'm dropping stuff everywhere. So what's his name, John Burkow? Right? John Burkow? I can say that properly. He's fantastic. I love his order.

He's not playing around that. I want some order in this joint. You want him on your side when you're in the drive-thru. I'll tell you that. I love it. Now, there's big problems, though, because, you know, we've talked a lot about, well, from time to time about Brexit here on chewing the And I really feel like the United Kingdom, the English people are getting screwed on this deal.

And that's why they didn't like the Brexit deal. Theresa May's deal was like, we're going to call it Brexit and we're going to say we're leaving the EU, but really we're not. We're just going to pretend that we're not part of the EU, but really we are. And the people were like, um, no. So now, I mean, this is where we're at now where it's all stopped. Now, she survived. She, her deal, she said the right thing yesterday, though.

When this was over, after order, order, after order. Order. Oh, yeah. Come down, John. Jeez. Okay, so after John did that, she said the right thing about that it was, this was telling and said what they didn't want, but didn't say what they wanted. So, you know, she's going to try to go back and see what they wanted, which would have made sense to do, I don't know, months ago. But she didn't want to do that months ago because she wanted to, we're just going to pretend that we're,

Leave it. Okay, we're just going to pretend. Now, so they either go back to the EU and try to work out a deal that could be more popular in Parliament, they could break the current deadline for British withdrawal from the EU is March 29th. So the government... Cut John, settle down, okay? I'm not done. The government could ask for an extension in the hopes that they'll agree to the framework. The... A no deal.

Brexit. The UK could leave the EU without any plan. And this is the outcome businesses fear most, which they shouldn't, by the way. We could talk more about that if you'd like, but they shouldn't. They should just pull the freaking plug. And that's why many they're saying are stockpiling goods to cope with the potential

chaos. I think it's not going to be as chaotic as you think. Because that's what the people wanted. Leave the freaking EU. Because now if they go back and they flip the Brexit question, and make the voters vote again?

I mean, there is not going to be any... John's going to be walking the streets, holler and order, and the people are going to be lighten fires in the streets of London, man. The people are going to be fighting, and John's going to be wandering around London. And it ain't going to happen, my friend. All right, so remember you can communicate with us with the hashtag chewing the fat

when you communicate with us on Twitter at Jeff EMRA, Facebook, Jeff Fisher Radio, and Instagram, Jeff Fisher Radio, and I'll give Chris some love to, what's your Twitter account? Really, it's not that complicated, at real Chris Cruz. Yeah, I can't remember that.

So you can use that with the hashtag chewing the fat, and at Jeff EMRA is really the most important one. What's yours again? At Chris Cruz. No, actually, no, it's at real Chris Cruz. Now you're not confused. Did I mention earlier in this podcast how difficult it was to find good?

What the hell is your Twitter account? At Real Chris Cruz. Okay, thank you. I will never ask that again and I apologize. But you can communicate with us with the hashtag Chewing the Fat. Now, those of you that are listening, thank you so much. I appreciate it. But I hope that you're a subscriber, that you subscribe to the podcast so you get the alert

when the new podcast get posted every day. And if you're not, please subscribe. And I'd be great once you subscribe. if you would rate and review it, you know, take the time. Just, you know, five, 20, they're going to ask you to rate it, and then they want you to go through, and then they want you to give you a review of the podcast, and I know you're busy.

So instead of just posting, you know, whatever they want you to do, just post 20 stars, best podcast ever. Done. We're good. And that gets other people the idea that this podcast is great, as what just like you think it is. And then I would like you to do this. And I know I'm asking a lot, and I apologize.

But it's the first of the year, and you've made some resolution, so let's work through them together, okay? My resolution is that you subscribe to the podcast and that you share it once a day. That's all you do. Just share it. You share it with people that you like. You can share with people you don't like, but at least share it.

So subscribe, rate 20 stars, review best podcast ever, share it. And the easiest way to share it is just to click share on your email. And the first name that pops up in your email said, hey, give it a listen. Thinking to you, give it a listen. People will appreciate it because you were thinking of them, and they'll appreciate you even more because you've given it this great podcast to listen to. It's just that easy. Welcome to a special edition of Chewing the Fat and joining me is the, the Brad Meltzer.

I mean. He's here in the building? Novelist he is. I saw him not long ago. That guy's hands. He was just hanging out, sitting around doing nothing as usual. I really do. My job, I, I, I, I, I, like,

as a novel, I talk to imaginary people all day. That's my job. Like, that is just the saddest, like, it's like, you ever remember in the movie Back to School? He's say, like, he has no friends. You know, I have one friend. He has no friends. That's me.

I'm both those people. So let's go down that road a little bit. You work from, most of your writing is done at home. You have a home office, right? I mean, you're there, you go down the hallway and you're writing books. How does that work out for you? Is there a time of like that door is closed, so we're leaving dad and my husband alone and we don't go in there. We don't knock.

Don't even breathe down that hallway. There's genius in that room. Stay away. No, no. You know, for one of the things we did is I'm on the second floor. There's just like a little, and I know it sounds so stupid. But being on the second floor as opposed to the first, and it's a tiny little office. It's smaller than the room we're in right now.

You know, it's like a 12 by 12 space, probably the size of my college dormer. but just being physically away from the family in the house. I remember when I first started writing, I couldn't even afford to buy the books on what you needed to, like the how-to books to be a writer and how to work it home, but I remember going to the bookstore and just reading them in the aisle, right? I was that guy. And I didn't have the money for it.

So I just read them. And it said, if you have a home office, I'll never forget it. It said, it said, treat it like an actual office. In other words, if you go into your office all the time at home, and then you come out and you talk to your family, and then you go into your office, basically they start bleeding together. And your home becomes your office, and your office becomes your home, and then you're going to have a problem.

And for 20 years now, the one thing that I always do is I never come out of my office. Even just to, like, get food, I almost, I can't even tell you the last time I came down. My kids know if I'm not there. Yeah, yeah, I call the Butler's Butler, and then I ask him to do it. And then the Butler does it. No, I mean, I really just try to keep those physical places separate. And my kids know, although my kids come up and talk to me, they know it's not like a, I mean, but they just know when I'm down, I'm always, I'm theirs.

And if I'm up, I'm working. And I like that. But I do work at home. I work best at night. Right. And that's, but I want to be with my kids and I want to be with my wife. So I don't. It's a tough schedule.

I treat it like a job. It's a tough schedule. I just, instead I keep it as a nine to five job, nine to six. 9 to 6, whatever, 630, whatever it might be, that's as late as I usually go. The weekends, I don't work. On book tour is obviously different if I'm on tour, but I don't work on the weekends. I try to really be there for my family and when it's work time, then it's work time. So speaking of the tour, I know you're on tour right now.

You know, we're talking on the day that you're getting ready to do your Dallas stop. And then how much time is left for the tour for your, for your latest book, the first conspiracy? The first conspiracy, the secret plot to kill George Washington tour is we are, this is Dallas. I have Denver tomorrow, St. Louis the day after, Kansas City the day after, Chicago the day after, Fort Lauderdale the day after, and then I will take a nap. Now are some of these, you mentioned earlier to me today that some of these are being streamed. So are people going to be able to go back and watch? them online later?

No, no. The streaming that I was telling you about is only inside the building. The one they're doing in Dallas, no, you can't see it anywhere else. You've got to pay to watch it from another. They sold out the Dallas one. And if you want to come into the building, you can watch on like a TV in like the room next door. It's such a downstairs.

Right. It upstairs. Right. But the good news is you can come and get the book sign and meet me and take pictures and we'll do all that. That's how that's charging money. So right, that's a big, no, but no, it's not for anyone. I don't know.

If you pay tickets, they're not going to beam it to anybody. Then people bought tickets are mad. No, we sold out. And they were just like, how do we keep up with the people who want to still come? So they basically put some TV in a room. So I don't want to tell you how to do your job, Brad. But, you know, maybe you should record one and film one and we'll over film them all and then take the best of all. Right.

I mean, but so it would be like a comedy album. It'll be like my comedy album. I love when they do the comedy album and you can tell that they cut away to like, that was the better joke that came from when he was in San Francisco. Francisco and this is the one in L.A. He changed sweaters in the middle of a joke? Right, in the middle of the show. We do,

so to that, C-SP came when we were in Washington, D.C. and filmed. And so in a couple weeks, C-SPAN will put an actual event online. I catch my father-in-law watching the C-SPAN book channel. That's who watches C-SPAN. The best part is, when you're on C-SPAN. I end up watching it when he has it on. When you're on C-SPAM,

and I've been, this thing on C-SPAN recently, it was a three-out. our interview on live C-SPAN and everyone can call in. Like, even my relatives alike, like, my wife was, she's like, I watched all three hours. That's probably the only person. Like, you have to be married to me to sit for the whole three hours. But there were clearly people who were watching for those three hours and they were calling in.

And the best part of them is they make it so clear that they're not watching for you. Like, they're just like, I don't care what, like, it could be a rock that's on TV. And they're going to call in to ask that rock a question. question, right? Like, they're just like, just tell me what you think about the immigration debate. Like, they just, and they don't even ask you, tell me, they want you to hear what they think about such debate. And I just love that they're like, in a sense, there are C-SPAN groupies out there that are only fans of C-SPAN. And like, those are, you know, I love comic books in the comic book world, kind of looks down on the Star Trek world, which looks down on the gaming

world. And like, somewhere in there is the C-SPAN world. Right, right, right. And everyone has to look down on somebody. But I love, I will say, I look up to the people who do nothing but watch C-SPAN because they just can't get enough. I can honestly say I have not one of those people? Yes, I can tell that. But I do watch it from time to time. Yeah, I watch it too and you find yourself on there. And I will say that once you're there, you are there.

Of course. Once you're there, you're there. And not that's that. They have great authors that I would otherwise not see. So I'm like, oh, I like that author. I want to learn about that historical book. I'm going to do it. Absolutely.

But they watch all of them. Right. Like they watch all. All of them. And God bless them for doing so. We need somebody. Absolutely, we do. All right. So you've got the first conspiracy. We'll talk a little bit about the new book. I know you've got to hawk it out. This is, it was, you know, are we still in the first week? We still wear the first week sales, right? We just finished. We just finished. Yeah, Sunday, we finished the first week.

Okay. So see, yeah, first week does matter. No, but now that first week, second way, every sale matters. Yeah, so I've been going around talking about this. Very quickly, let's do it so we can. but it's literally the secret plot to kill George Washington. I found the story a decade ago nearly in a footnote, and I was like, is this real? Is this fake? What is it?

And it's true. There was in 1776 a secret plot to kill George Washington. When George Washington found out about it, he gathers up those responsible, builds a gallows, and he hanged the man in front of 20,000 people, the largest public execution at that point in North American. in history just brought the hammer down. It's like, don't mess with me.

I'm George Washington. Right. I got a badass wig. Don't mess with me. You know, like that's an actual historic quote. Thank you. But I was struck by the story and decided to write my first ever nonfiction book. People know me for the fiction books, but I wrote my first ever nonfiction book

called the first conspiracy, the secret plot to kill George Washington. So you found it in a footnote a decade ago. do you take a snapshot on your phone of that footnote and put it away? Do you copy it on a little piece of paper that you tape into a book? And when you go up into your office one morning, you go, I don't know what I'm going to write about. And you start flipping through your little notes that you found. Yeah, no, I keep a, I have a little couple of places where I just...

I'm fascinated by the work process. Yeah, no, I appreciate that. No one's ever asked about that. That's exactly what I do. I find that nugget. The first thing I do, I can't help myself is I start researching. I'm just sitting right there and I'm like, okay, what is this thing? And I start going down the rabbit hole.

And I can easily kill an hour easily, like no time. And then what I do is I'm like, oh, this really happened. So put it in your file. And I put it in this kind of folder that I keep for ideas to like you got to go back to. It's like, and basically five years go by. And Jeffrey, man, I'm still thinking about this thing. I can't shake it. And I know one thing about myself is if five years go by and I,

I'm still thinking about it, it's time to do it, right? It's a good enough idea. And so I went to Pulitzer Prize winning author Joseph Ellis, who wrote one of the great George Washington biographies. And I said to him, do you know the story? Like, it's a plot to kill Washington. Is this real? You know, what is it? And he said to me, it's real. I know the story, he told me. And he said, but here's the thing about it. It's a story that involves Washington spies. And he said, that's why it's hidden, that's why you don't know about it. He said, you can easily find the exact number of slaves that George Washington owned. You'll never find all his spies. He said, by its nature, what you're looking for, Brad, is going to forever be elusive. And he said to me, but you've got to try.

He says, if you try, you take a shot, you'll get a book out of it. If it goes, well, if it goes bad, big deal, you had an adventure. And I was like, you know what? That's exactly what I want to do. I want to have an adventure. Yeah. I found a story that you told on the Glenbeck radio program was about the hanging. And I found that fascinating how that got lost in the shuffle. Yeah, I mean, you know, and it begs the question, right? Like, why do we not know this story? Right.

Guy is coming for George Washington like it's a Scorsese movie, and nobody know we don't know this. And one of them is, again, because of, of course, that it was involved to spies. I kept it hidden, but two is when the hanging took place. And it was June 28th, 1776. Now, guess what else is happening? Nothing else going on around that time. Hey, it's June 28th, 1776. You guys busy?

Like, it's a week away from July 4th. The British are literally coming. The first draft of the Declaration of Independence is being handed in. I mean, with headlines like that. Turmoil everywhere. This just gets lost and becomes a footnote to history. And just gets, I mean, 20,000 people watch us. thing. There was no Twitter or Facebook back then, but they wrote, you know, how many people

wrote letters saying, like, I was at a hanging. George Washington was there. Oh, my God, they killed this man and quickly spread through the crowd. In fact, one guy wrote a letter, because it obviously very quickly spread through the crowd. And some people thought it was rumor. Some people thought it was real. They didn't know that this was a plot to kill Washington. And a guy was so disturbed by that idea and what he saw that he was a witness to the hanging, that he invented a new word to describe it. And the word he invented was sacroside, what he called the death of good.

And when you have to, I was like, if you have to invent new words, you're at a big deal event, right? No kidding. And so I love the fact. And the whole book is filled with things you don't know about George Washington. That's the whole fun of it.

Like, why read what you know everything? I mean, I didn't know, and I didn't know this myself. George Washington has his own private bodyguards. He asked all of his top military. leaders, he said, give me your four best men. And he wanted what they called drilled men, the best of the best. And he took those, he narrowed it down to about

50 himself, and they became the, they called them the commander's guard, they called him the General's Guard, but the name that stuck were the lifeguards. Because one of their jobs was to guard George Washington's life. And man, do I love that? And the crazy part is, these were the men who turned on them. Of course. Naturally,

it is. Naturally, why else? And so the plot to kill him just because, comes this amazingly devastating moment for George Washington because his own men are turning on him. I mean, the turmoil and the division in the country at the time, at that time. Oh, staggering. And you're right, because we love to tell the story that, oh, my gosh, ever, we all came together.

We all dreamed of democracy. Let's join hands, and we'll have happily ever after and beat the British, the greatest fighting force of the world that's ever known. And it wasn't like that at all. I mean, they were in 1776, there were nearly as many loyalists on the British side as there were patriots on the American side. And in our own army, we were divided completely. We had people from Virginia in the regiments in Virginia didn't like the Massachusetts one. This one got in a fight with the Connecticut one.

We weren't wearing the same uniforms, right? We were wearing some guys that were showing up in work shirts. There's no one United States back then. It's not there. And it's these groups, in fact, when on one day the Massachusetts Regiment picks a fight and they're fighting with the Virginia Regiment, George Washington, races in on his horse, leaps off the horse, grabs two of the guys by the neck and is basically shaking him and saying, stop fighting, we're on the same team.

We're supposed to be on the same team. And if ever there were a metaphor for where we are today is a culture, right? There it is. And I love that, you know, you can read the book and enjoy watching this plot to kill Washington, but I also love that you get to see the kind of real story of the American Revolution in the process. Very fascinating. I'm looking forward to actually delving into it. Brad Meltzer, that's who we're talking to. You know, according to his Twitter account, the greatest criminal mind of our time, bestselling author, the man. And the man who was,

you know, you're a prime example of people that I like to talk about living the American dream and living their American dream. Everybody has a different idea of what the American dream is. But now you, I'm guessing, and I don't know this, but I'm just guessing that you didn't start out with the Silver Spoon. Yeah. But you didn't start out with the wet nurse. I wish, man.

That you weren't living up at the high tower. That would have been sweet living if we have money. No, my family, I grew up in New York, in Brooklyn, New York, in a totally, you know, working class, middle class kid. My dad was, worked in a. a greeting card store. That was what he did. And my parents didn't go to four-year, you know, I was, I mean, my dad, when he was 39

years old, lost his job. And it wasn't one of those moments where he just, we didn't have money. We were worried about safety. He didn't have it. We didn't have a place to live. We didn't have it. We didn't know way to turn. We didn't know what to do.

The only place we did know way to turn is we went, my grandmother lived in Florida, like most people's grandmothers. We're picking up and moving there. And so my dad picked up and said, we're going to have the do-over of life. That's what he called it. The do-over of life. At 39, he had to go with it, though he went with it.

And he made it sound like it was an adventure. And I was terrified. I remember even them being terrified. And he picked us up, moved us down to Florida. He gave a fake address so that I could go to the wealthy public school. I was zoned for a really bad school because our neighborhood wasn't that great. And your grandma didn't care what neighbors. Right.

I mean, and we live in my grave. We actually didn't have enough money for a down payment for rent. we couldn't even afford the, you know, the not down payment, the, what's the, the deposit, the security deposit. We couldn't even afford that. So we had to live with my grandmother for like three months until we could save up that. My dad wound up selling insurance and got that as a job. But I gave a fake address, which meant that when I went to high school,

none of my report cards came home because we were given a fake address so I could go to this wealthy school. And when I was, when I was in this school, that's where people started talking about this thing called. college and I was like oh you know they're like Brad you taking the SAT I'm like I don't know what the SAT is but if you're taking it I'm taking it and I was just determined I was hungry and and these all these wealthy kids you know they had everything handed to him I remember watching them and being like these are such spoiled brats I'm like I'm going to outwork them and I just had this hunger in me

that you know can only be created by need and was lucky enough to become the first of my family to go to a four year college I went to University of Michigan Hail to the victors, baby. And it changed my life. I mean, it really changed my life. It was my first kind of like look at another universe beyond my own. Right. And while you were fortunate enough to maybe see a little bit beyond another universe

because you went to the rich high school. So you saw a little bit of the other side. You know, I look back now and I don't know when the line was when you realized that you were growing up as just the, the poor white kid. I don't know what that line was. I knew it very clearly. But you just said that you were terrified when you moved.

Oh, I knew it. I knew it completely. I remember going and shopping at the equivalent of like Kmart, Walmart. We used to call it Zairs is what it was in Florida. Right. I mean, and nothing wrong with it. I'm proud that I shopped there. But, you know, everyone else was wearing their polo shirts.

And we had to go and get something that like kind of looked like a horse. But it wasn't a horse. It was a dinosaur. Right. Right. We didn't get, you know, and my mom's favorite place, even though, a dying day. In fact, when I hit the bestseller list at the number one spot for the very first time, I called my mother. My wife had known because they called my house and I wasn't there.

And my wife called me and said, you know, the book's number one on the best cellar list. So I called my mother is the first person I called. And she starts hysterically crying. And I said, Mom, where are you? And she says at Marshalls. And I'm like, of course she's at Marshalls. It's like she's, you know, I'm on the number one spot of the best sell is she's still trying to get a deal on a regular socks, you know? And I'm proud of that. I love that my mom's great lesson was, it's like you should never, ever, ever change who you are. Right. And I'm proud of that.

I love that. Well, I just remember to this day I dislike laundromats. And the only reason I have for disliking laundromats is I can remember walking with my mother and my brother with a wagon full of dirty clothes, five, blocks to the laundromat to wash clothes and fold them and put them back in the wagon and walk back to the house. Yeah, we had that same thing. In fact, I know, I knew when my dad would get paid because he would, he brought the dry cleaning home. If you had a shirt, like a dress shirt that he needed for work, it would sit in the dry cleaner for weeks, months. He was all commissioned. He didn't get paychecked. So the dry cleaning, he would bring home like Chinese food and dry cleaning. And

when the dry clean was over shoulder, we knew that was a payday. And I grew up with, you know, I remember people used to go and I remember seeing they'd say fill her up at the gas station. Yeah. People just, you know, pump your gas for you. No way you'd be a dollar 50 cents. We would be like five bucks, three bucks, ten bucks, you know, two dollars. That's, that was, it was no fill it up. I know, fill it up was like rich people filled it up.

Right. We basically were like, what you got. Right. And make sure you drive the little bit to get the better gas, cheap of gas. Yeah. You know, and I will, I wouldn't trade that for anything in the whole world. because I feel like that gave me an appreciation. In fact, you know, I just think one of the things that people always do when they find success is they forget everywhere where they came from.

And I work very hard to never, ever lose track of that. I always appreciate that what I've been able to, you know, be blessed enough to do. So that struggle that gave you the drive and the appreciation and you go to the University of Michigan and you, you know, graduate from the you did graduate from the university of michigan yes and you uh they don't just let anybody speak at their graduation ceremony right you have to be a graduate right and uh you you have the drive and then you uh you know you end up being who you are now you have you have the american dream right you have success you have a beautiful wife you have children how do you instill that drive because I have a big problem with that. I mean, I look at my children and I think,

you know, and I was your age, it was a different world. You know, listen, I think there's, and I think you have to, the corollary to that is how do you keep that for yourself, right? How do you not become the spoiled part? And so let's do one than the other. For my kids, I mean, I'm very conscious, you know, I believe, I tell my kids all my stories. Like, I tell them. And when we go, Like when we were growing up and you went to a restaurant, my sister and I, we knew one thing. You never order a drink because a drink costs money. You get water. We knew growing up.

Water's free. Water's free and a drink cost money. I remember I went out with my sister and we were, this is like in the last year or two. And we went out somewhere and my sister ordered like a Diet Coke. And we're like, oh, fancy pants tonight, huh? Like, I mean, we are 25, 30 years later. And she's like, I know it's a big splurge. She's like, she still is like that.

She's like, I never do it. She's like, I never do it. I'm like, I know we can't do it. And I, and my kids know, like, if you want to so, like, I say that. I'm like, let me tell you some more. And I just, I don't care. I'm like, you have to live it. It's not, and do I fail on it on some level?

Well, we all do. Sure. Of course I do sometimes. We want the best for our children. I want the best for my kids. I took my kid to the World Series because someone got me tickets. And I was like, I'm going to take my kids of the World Series. Sure.

And, and you know what? my kids are good about it. They appreciate it. They never... I feel like mine do too, and I hope that that actually rubs off in the long run. I hope so. And for myself,

I actually am very conscious of that too. I mean, my first book got 24 rejection letters. There were only 20 publishers, and I got 24 rejection letters, right? Some people are writing me twice to make sure I got the point, right? Like, Dear Brad,

in case you missed that first letter, you know, here's the second one. That book really sucked. But the real part of the story was, is letter number, rejection number 23 and 24, we thought we're going to be acceptance letters. We thought they were actually going to be ones that said, we loved it, because there were two people, number 23 and 24, actually did like the book. They had me come into their offices.

I had to meet with them. I was like, so my agent said to me, you got to feel good about that. I felt good. She's like, stay by the phone. This is back before cell phone. She's like, stay by the phone. I'm going to call you at this time. I'm going to tell you what their offers are.

I think they're going to bid against each other. You're going to make money. And I was in debt at the time from college and had law school debt that I was paying off. And I literally waited by the phone to ring so I could pick up the phone and she was going to say, you made it, here you go. Here's how wealthy you are going to be.

And I picked up the phone. And Jeffrey, I'll never forget. I pick it up and I hear this. Sorry, kiddo. And it was they both rejected it. And my stomach sank out from under me. me, I was devastated. It was the end. And to this day, for over 20 years now, every day that I sit down to right, I replay that moment in my head. I literally replay the phone that I'm holding.

It was one of those clear phones that has like the wires running through. You could see because that seemed like high tech at the time. Those were the cool things. They were cool. I had a Formica desk on the left of me and the swivel lamps that everyone has in college on those little swivel things. On my right, is a bed in a box spring because we had no headboard. It was just, you know, a mattress in a box spring. Straight ahead is a, is this little terrace that I looked over on a concrete parking lot and across from me diagonally to the left was a fire station with three doors, one, two, three. And every day that I sit down to right for 20 years now and then at the end I close my, you know, I basically in my head say, sorry, kiddo. Twenty years now, every day, sorry, kiddo,

sorry kiddo, sorry kiddo. Because I never ever want to lose that desire that I had when I was 20-something years old. I never want to lose that appreciation for what I have. And I certainly never, ever want to think that I made it. Because the moment I think I made it, I'm finished. And that is, I do it every day I work, every time. Well, I'll be the one to think it for you then. Well, I appreciate it.

But I can't, that is to me like, I don't, you don't ever want to make it. You know, one of the reasons I was obsessed when I, when I met President Bush the first time is he wrote me a letter saying he liked my books. And I remember thinking, he must be so bored that he's left the White House and now he's writing me letters. And I was so struck by that idea. Like, imagine someone told you. The president is so bored. I'm like, imagine someone told, because that's what happens. I was fascinated by the idea that you are the leader of the free.

world one day, and the next day you've got to stop at red lights like the rest of us. And imagine someone told you, listen, Jeffrey, everything you've done, you've peaked, and now everything you do is going to be downhill. You'll never going to have as much fun, excitement or stimulation as you had when you were in that White House. Like, that would be devastating to me. Sure would. And I was so struck by that.

Sorry, kiddo, right? I mean, I was so struck by that. That's what I asked him to see. I said, can I come see what your life is like? Because I want to see what that's like. So anyway, for me, I think that that's a vital thing to try and do. So what's next? You have your children's books.

Yeah, so first conspiracies out now. The escape artist was the last thriller. Is that a movie? No, I wish, man. What are you doing? I know. Trust me. Tell my agent.

Call them now. Just say, what are you doing? Call me. No, they're great. I'll make that happen. But I'm working on the sequel right now. The escape artist just came out on paperback. and so we finally people,

and I couldn't afford hardcover books growing up. Like the paperback is where you bought it. I read everything in paperback. I was always so happy. My aunt was the librarian at the state library in Lansing. Yeah. And so the books that we got for Christmas from her were the hardcover ones. I still have those.

Right. I mean, I remember the first hardcover book I bought, I graduated college and I went to every bookstore to see who had it cheapest. And then, you know, whoever I'd achieve it, by a dollar, 50 cents, I don't care. That's a type of gas. I would walk there, right? That's exactly right.

And so the escape artist is out in paperback. We're doing for the I am kids book series. We just came out with I Am Neil Armstrong for the illustrated books for kids we do. The newest one comes out next month, and it is I Am Billy Jean King, which is a really fun book that we did, especially because, you know, we were proofing the book. and I got a phone call from Billy Jean King's people there and they basically said, Billy Jean wants to talk to you.

You do not want to get that call, right? That is a terrifying call. I don't know that I put Billy Jean on that you do not want to get that call. In fact, you say that. You don't want to be like, you don't want to have screwed it up. And I think, well, wait a minute. If I got that call, I wouldn't want that call either. Right.

Well, you don't want to hear you screwed it up. And so she was amazing. She actually helped us proof the book. So I am Billy Jing King comes out. in February, and in November, we are doing our I Am Kids books are coming as a cartoon TV show on PBS. I was just going to ask about that if that was going to happen, because that's fantastic. Yeah, PBS is going to do, we just announced it on our social media, whatever, a couple weeks ago. But PBS is going to do a cartoon TV show.

It's called Xavier Riddle in the Secret Museum. And the best part of that is that it's about Xavier, his sister, Edina, and their best friend. Brad, who looks remarkably handsome, and they go back in time. That's a cartoon, though. They meet, yeah, they meet, that's exactly right. It's amazing how handsome they can make me when I'm a cartoon, and it doesn't actually look like me at all. But anyway, they go back in time and meet different heroes,

and we get to do, I mean, listen, we're getting to do our own cartoon show. That does to me, is stupid fun. Really cool. I've got a couple ideas to add to your cartoon stories. We've got some really good ideas. Now, you talked about your American dream, but really your American dream started with, you know, the strong work ethic. You know, we talk about going into your office and working, but, you know, I see you write you sit down. Even if you don't have anything, you're still sitting down and trying to create something.

Yeah, my belief is you don't just take off. You work. Yeah. And listen, I mean, it's not that I'm a genius. That's all I know. That's what I saw. My dad was, my dad wasn't the smartest guy in the room, but my God, was he hardworking, you know? And I always say that there are better writers than me who never get a shot.

And there are great writers out there. I tell my kids, I'm like, I'm not the, you know, I tell my kids all the time, I'm like, I'm not the best writer, but I'll work them all. I will outwork you all. And that is, you know, to me, what I learned growing up, it's what my parents gave me. It's the only thing I know. It was never handed to me. I mean, we fought for everything. And that's not a bad thing.

That's a fantastic thing. That gives you a work ethic. Yes, and that is your American dream. Amen. Brad Meltzer, I love you. Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate it. I know you've got to get out of here

and you're busy on your tour and doing all kinds of stuff and you made a little time for me and I appreciate it. Thank you very much. Love you, brother. All right.