Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher - Ep 807 | When A Killer Calls | Guest John Douglas…

Episode Date: February 12, 2022

WHEN A KILLER CALLS A Haunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profiling, and Justice in a Small Town. Legendary FBI criminal profiler John Douglas discusses in-depth details about his process and various factors that he used during his career with Jeffy. John Douglas, FBI criminal profiler and New York Times bestselling author, has spent over twenty-five years researching and culling the stories of America’s most disturbing criminals. He has been involved with more than 5,000 violent crime cases over the past 48 years. He and his wife Pam, a teacher, live in the Washington, D.C. area. Mark Olshaker Is an Emmy Award–winning documentary filmmaker, journalist, and author of twelve nonfiction books and five novels. His books with John Douglas, beginning with Mindhunter and, most recently, The Killer’s Shadow, have sold millions of copies and have been translated into many languages. He and his wife Carolyn, an attorney, live in the Washington, D.C. area. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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And now Chewing the Fat with Jeff Fisher. Welcome to a special Chewing the Fat today with author John Douglas. I am such a fan of John Douglas. He is the author of so many books now, and each one just gets better and better. You remember, we've talked to him about the killer's shadow, mind hunter, the killer across the table, and now the last. latest when a killer calls is just a fascinating read and another great story and another look into john's mind which is awesome i mean this guy's talked to charlie manson david berkowitz dennis raider all the serial killers that are just you know well bad people yes you can quote

me on that serial killers are bad people and john is just incredible to talk to i'd like to talk to for days on end. But I had an opportunity to talk to him this week, and I wanted to share that conversation with you here on Chewing the Fat. So welcome to Chewing the Fat. We are talking to one of my favorite authors in the world, John Douglas, his latest book, available as we speak, wherever you get your books. When a Killer Calls, The Haunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profile,

and justice in a small town. John, my favorite part of this book is when you do some flashbacks. And it's like real life, how people, how you think, and how you give us, you know, certain times during the investigation, what you're thinking of from the past and those flashback cases. I love that. And was there, I mean, obviously, was that difficult for you to remember some of that stuff? Or is that just what comes up?

No, yeah. It just, I've done so many cases, Jeff, in my career, you know, really now because I still do them. And so it's like 45 years of doing cases and thousands of cases. So when I, when I'm looking at a case, I'm thinking even ahead of the case. I'm thinking, I'm looking ahead what proactively I may do, like in a case like this. Then I'm looking back at some techniques I experimented with successfully early on in my career in different cases. And then I apply it.

apply it because after a while you work so many cases and from the interviews that I conducted, you see, you start to see patterns, you know, there. But this particular case was a heartbreaking case. It also, Jeff was a test for me because a year, about a year earlier, I just came back to work, a less than a year earlier, because six months before that, I nearly died on the green of a murder case. Right. viral encephalitis. And right side of my brain split because I had 104 to 107 degree temperature on a hotel room floor for three days. And so when I came back to work, the director, all that assistant director said, I can't use my left hand at that time.

It came back. And I can't be able to shoot my left. And they says, well, John, we don't care about it. We want your brain. I don't think that's gone too, man. I lost their brain. I lost their brain. you're being asked now, and it took me nearly in my life before I got help.

And so they gave me help. But it takes like two years to train a new profile position, about five years before they're pretty good. By then, they're usually starting to get burned out, and they don't want to know more of it. I did it my whole career. So it's to go down there now, in this case, I took a new agent in the unit down there. And now it's May 31st, 1985. not called there yet because by then we were getting about 200, 250 cases a year. But I was the principal guy doing this and have to train others.

I'm no longer instructing the old behavioral science unit. I'm program, the program manager. But it'll take the second death in this case. The first one who can get into was 17-year-old, Shari Faye Smith, who will be abducted in a mailbox. And the second case, two weeks later, it'll be a nine-year-old. And it wasn't until after the nine-year-old. year old is abducted that then the sheriff and undersheriff say we went john to come down here and that's what i did then i went we gave an analysis early on yeah you were kind of overseeing the

the first case a little right yeah for your information because we have so many cases and and you can't you can't go out on every single one of them but then with this but this particular one um the way the killer abducted the girl. And if you want me to tell the audience, go briefly how that happened. She was, she was with her boyfriend. It's Friday, May 31st. Sunday, she's going to be graduating from high school. She's going to be singing the national anthem. So right away, oh, maybe she's going to be a runaway. No, no, no, no. She's not that type. Very religious, solid family. And so she's with a boyfriend at a pool party. And she left a car at a park a lot. He drops her off to get the car.

and make it out a little bit. And probably at that point in time, this on-so, the unknown subject is watching. And so she now heads on home and pulls up in front of her house just outside of the town of Lexington, long driveway, 200 yards along the house sits back. And she always will check the mail.

Dad is at his office, looks out the window, sees his daughter, but then leaves and comes back. Where is she? She should be up in the driveway. So she comes. what happens he walks down, the car is running. Her purse is on the passenger side, which is critical because she's a diabetic. And if she doesn't take that medicine, she will require a gallon of

water at an hour. She'll become so quickly dehydrated. And her footprints are leading to the mailbox. She wasn't wearing shoes because she came from that pool party. But then the mail, she had the mail, it's dropped. And then she's gone. You know, she's gone. And it's about 24 hours later, the family, you know, it's a major case now in South Shore, a family is called. I mean, it's a brazen abduction, right? I mean, in front of the family's house. Yeah.

And so the FBI gets involved because of the kidnapping abduction as well. But really, it would end up being a local case because they're not going to be taken out of state or anything, anything like that. But what was amazing, Jeff, to me was that the motive. What is the motive? generally it's abduction, rape, some murder case. But here, we have the onsub calling the family and telling them that he has their daughter, that he has their daughter.

And what he's doing, he gives, he's giving him, you know, kind of false hope. So he starts calling and he has some kind of electronic device that can change the pitch in modulation of his voice. So that tells you something about his criminal sophistication. Also, the abduction tells you. something. That's pretty, pretty nervy, pretty ballsy. Sure is. Grab someone at a mailbox like that.

Then there's a second call. The second call is that did you get, did you get the letter? What he's talking about? Your daughter sent a letter and it should be coming in the mail any day. You should get it. So everyone goes down to the mailbox, the investigators and go down in the mailbox and they retrieve it. And guess what it is?

It's a last will and testament. signed by the victim. And what she's saying, that's what the heading of it is, is Last Will and Testament. And she's saying goodbye to her mommy, her daddy, her brother, her boyfriend, you know, Richard. And telling her how she wants the funeral, closed casket, hands, clasps. And there's a time up in the left-hand corner of the page 310. And we'll later find out that that is the point where she signed the letter. where she made wrote the letter and then in a conversation another tape when she's talking to he's talking to

the family he says at 458 we became one we believe that's the time she was murdered killed murdered by this guy and so what i was even brought down yet jeff i uh they came up because the undersheriff and sheriff were graduates of the police academy we had we had national academy yeah and there i did the analysis the age range figured between late 20s and to early 30s they a white male electrical, you know, type of background. He would, I mean, you'd pretty much by that point already done kind of the ABCs of the, the criminal, right? Yeah, pretty much.

Given the kind of the profile, you had an idea who this was. And what made it easy, Jeff, is because we have, you know, you have a voice now, too. We only have the crime. Right. But you have the voice. And then anything we'll find out a little later on is when he calls the family with directions, specific directions where where he says where we will be but where the directions are and he could tell he's an obsessive compulsive personality because he gives these these very intricate details

of miles and tens of miles and feet where the body will be found but you know what he did it tells you again his criminal sophistication he waited he waited uh three to four days reason being it was a hundred degrees down there it was hot and he knew darn well that if we got there and we would not be able to determine the cause of death method and manner of death because of the decomposition of the body. But what he was wrong at, what we are able to detect there is that part of her hair was cut off and we had some stickiness on her face. And what he did was, and we would later find out when he tells the mother, he tells the mother,

did my daughter know she was going to die? Yes, she did. And I gave her choice. She could pick gunshot. She could pick drug overdose or suffocation. and your daughter selected suffocation. Tells the mother this on the phone. So that residue was that stickiness, but see, he removed it, Jeff.

Why? Because fingerprints. You knew darn well, we could get prints off of that tape. You had to cut the hair to get it off, get it off of her head. But that's what we were dealing with. And then- The phone calls made me so angry. I got to tell you, as I'm reading this, the phone calls made me so angry.

It's amazing to me how well, at least in your book, that the family stood up through it. Oh, it's, it made me so angry. Well, and the other thing, Jeff, too, is what, looking way far ahead, is that the, kind of like in the John Bonnet, the Patsy Ramsey case, is how Patsy Ramsey's ovarian cancer return. Well, what happens to Hilda, the mother, is she, at first she has an aneurysm when her husband, Bob is away, aneurys, and nearly dies from that.

And then right to that, she gets ovarian cancer and dies. And when you have cases like this, how some people, it holds families together, others, it breaks them apart. They turn into alcohol, to drugs in the Debra Helmink case, the other nine-year-old victim, who he will abduct and kill, the family split. Because there's a lot of guilt. You know, how come you aren't watching her closely? You know, which brings me to another point. I was thinking as I was reading this book, and I was going to talk to you about it, you know, you don't need my help in ideas for writing books. But I'm here to help anyway, John. Oh, yes. Sure. Yeah. No, I was thinking, I mean,

there has to be the aftermath. What made me, as I'm reading the book, thinking about that and what happened to the mother and the father and the other family of the young girl that was, you know, abducted and murdered. I was thinking, boy, the aftermath to the families is something that nobody talks about. Nobody talks about. The epilock. I got in the epilock in the book. No, I know. Yeah, and how what happens to the family. That's what got me thinking about the rest of the cases, though. I mean, all these cases, the trail of tears and horror is just, it's got to be incredible. Yeah. And the Smith case, Mr. Bob Smith, and we communicate, he has a finest established for his daughter and music, who I contribute to that fund every year. And he's a wonderful man. He said, there's no closure, John.

He said, you know, people throw that around closure. There's an arrest conviction, the guys executed, whatever. And he said, what gave me some closure was what is the last will and testament, how strong my daughter was, knowing that she was going to die. And she was, you know, making good with God. And it is just an extremely very religious, a very religious family. And, you know, wonderful. But how the tide began to turn was. when the Debra Helmick victim was when she was abducted, nine years old playing with a little brother in front of a trailer, 50 feet away.

And this guy in broad daylight pulls up, snatches her. And we just had this in town a week ago in our own town. Similar thing. The nine-year-old girl broke away. Good. So, yeah. Good. They're all over the country.

I mean, I got interviewed, too, by other people, like, serial killers is not that many. You know, no, you don't know this not that may. I know this many. We just don't write about it. Right. You know, I was thinking about, I just read a story about a guy that was arrested because he tried to take a lady's car in a drive-through, okay? So he was doing, he was headed, invaded a house, and then he left.

And it's the whole story. But the ending of the story is him being arrested because he tried to take this lady's car in a drive-through. And immediately, the lady's-stead. started honking her horn and screaming and he took off, which ended up in his arrest. And it got me thinking about what you had talked about in your books and your talks, is that, fight. Fight.

Don't just, you know, you have that second of fight, fight back. Yeah, because a lot of these will happen like in a shopping center and, and there's always a rich you may be injured. However, I know. Potential victims out there is that if you go with this guy in his car or your car, he's he's thinking survival he can you can identify him in the future your goose is cooked so you have to fight like hell scream someone may hear you and and just just don't give in and i think with sherry fage smith it's not her fault but she's such a religious uh you know person and good good

person uh there was none of that fighting well and he was armed right i mean he was armed as well that's Yeah, that's right. We didn't know it at the time. We figured that was part of the profile. He had to have a weapon to do it. At least for her, you know, not the young girl. Right. And yeah, to control.

You're exactly, you're exactly, you know, right about that. So most people, I mean, you put a, not a lot of people, especially a teenage girl, is not going to fight back with a gun in their face, right? I don't think I only got to be here. Right. At some point, I'll try to make a move. Not right. not right away.

Right. I understand. And we're talking to John Douglas. Author of When a Killer Calls is his latest book, The Haunting Story of Murder, Criminal Profiling and Justice in a small town, which I have a hard copy in my grubby hands as we speak. You know, John, and I know you've written a ton of books, and, you know, the world probably knows you from Mind Hunter.

And you've got, you know, things that you're working on. But what's a... in the, what case haunts you the most, that you either haven't written about you? Like, I'm not writing about that. Or that you haven't. It's in the drawer and you're like, I'm just going to leave that in the drawer. Well, the one initially was the, the greener of murder murder case, because that's the case. I nearly died on.

Yeah. I try to interview him in, in prison. And I keep trying. Maybe at some point, because I, you know, there's more of the story with him. And a lot of these guys, once they get a, give him a sweetheart deal, you know, you're not going to get the death penalty. They'll start confessing to everything to be the biggest badass, you know, killer in the world. But also the Tylenol murders, too, is another one where we got the guy named James Lewis on the extortion part of that. And he was a very, very good suspect as well in the actual, you know, the killing so of the product tampering in Chicago, Chicago area.

So that, you know, that one, you know, is one. But sometimes it's just, the whole thing really comes to me, it's even with the clearance of the case. It's the families, a family in Wichita, in Kansas right now. Their daughter, their daughter was going to college and got a job in a summer in a restaurant. And there's with other employees, of course. Little did she know that there was a guy employed there who was paroled as a convicted rapist from a prison and the prison officials never told this guy's on probation never told around parole now that this guy was a rapist was a serial rapist so she's sick one night she's sick and and uh this guy offers a

ride home and he ends up brutally raping and murdering this girl and i know this family i love this family it is amazing this bastard this guy from from prison would write letters to the family basically in his case saying get over it You know, she's dead. You can't bring him back. You can't bring her back. You know, he's trying to get out of jail again, out of prison. And where some of these people may think he's been rehabilitated again.

And how that impacted the family. I'm unbelievable. In fact, Mr. Schmidt, he died just not too long ago because, again, it's just... It's crushed it. Oh, it's crushing. And then so there's the mother, wonderful mother. And her daughter, they have a daughter that died. now the husband, you know, died.

And it's true. It's just the prison. Now, this is a side note question. And I know I. Oh, I was the prison allowing these prisoners to send letters to of their former crimes. Yeah. I know.

I don't know. I don't understand that. I've had them where they've contacted me by computer or they found out my email address or they call me on the telephone and, you know, speak to me, you know, these guys. And in fact, that's why Jeff, when I was doing those interviews in prison, I didn't feel awfully comfortable, you know, because you walk through, I don't necessarily trust the corrections people. Because it's survival. They're there. Yeah.

It's survival. And, you know, I don't want to be the bad ass guy in case that there's some situation. I'm the tough guard, you know. Right. No. So you can see why you hear these stories where, you know, they turn your back as you're bringing in. in contraband into the prison? Or how did Richard Speck in Chicago?

How did he develop breast while he was in prison? How was he able to get cocaine and filming? It was filmed of him and performing sex acts in prison and having a camera. Where are the guards? Where are the guards here? So when you go tiptoeing in his prison and that's why you never want to look like Mind Hunter with a nice tie. Right.

You want to look like one of the correction people's, wearing your hush puppies and, you know, like a psychologist. Or if you do look like that like on the beginning, they said, like, what do you think this guy is FBI or a defense attorney? I heard him. We're with the defense, man. What are you talking? I'm going to ask you.

But kind of help you. Please don't kill me, you know. Right. Yeah. So some of these prisons you go into, it's really loosey-goosey. You know, it's not like always maximum, you know, like in Colorado, the super max prisons. So it's pretty, you know, kind of pretty scary stuff. Just seems like it should be a tad bit.

You know, I'm okay with the drugs going in, whatever. I'm talking about if they're writing letters to victims of their crimes, that's a little much for me. Yeah. That's a little much for. So this guy, yeah, that's just amazing. So that those are the kind of things that carries on in your life. And that's what I really did me.

And I was, besides violence, cephalitis brought on, they said post-traumatic stress disorder. I believe it. because it's just like seeing so much and inundated. Just never a rest, can't sleep at that time, drinking too much, exercising to the point of exhaustion. And then nighttime I would keep notes, even with the case we're talking about. Yeah.

If I come up with anything, I'll write some notes down. And then so going back to the case, if I came back, it wasn't until the nine-year-old. Then I provide onsite consultation. Yeah, that's what they brought you in. You and your partner came down. to the Carolinas and really were working with the sheriffs, right, in the different counties. Right. And then, you know, that's when I went to the scenes and met with the family.

It's good at that time. That was mid-80s. Right. So at that time, you were getting the belief from the local law enforcement that your help could benefit them rather than, we don't want the FBI company. Yeah. That's right. Those who've seen mine hunter,

that part is true. A lot of the other kind of stuff, the Hollywood eyes, but that part is true, you're going out there, you know, you get, what is this bullshit?

You know, you're talking about, you're talking about theories, you know, you're talking, you're not talking about Jack Webb, just the facts, ma'am,

you're talking, or you're saying, you've got to refocus the investigation. You're going to a long way, or you read. I've been a sheriff down here for 25 years. I know, that's right, yeah.

Yeah, well, sometimes I was, the sheriff, the sheriff, maybe friends because he attended the FBI National Academy. And so he heard about this stuff. But then when you go down, the other guys, they don't know.

And they see the FBI, you know, what are you doing down here? Yeah, Mr. Big Schia. You know, you educated boys up there. And really, that's what I've had that same exchange. You boys, you got, you know, we're just simple folk. We don't that. Right. So, I mean, are we, is that cannot.

And I know that a lot of it has been Hollywoodized. I understand, but in real life, can that seriously be still happening? With the, still happening? Are you still? No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't know as much from my unit as since I left. When I was there, I was me, 12 profilers that I had trained.

We were doing 1,000 cases a year. And you would always read about us. The cops were very favorable. And we're also, we were involved in all kinds of cases. You know, product tamper, extortion, bombing, and arsons and everything. And you may find it, but it's gotten, it's gotten much better. And by the 80s, you know, 81, so much was happening in 80, the Tylenol case, the Unabomber case, Robert Hanson, Alaska, hunting women like wild animals. Right.

To fly them up in the wilderness. The Wayne Williams case, 81, 82, and then me coaching the prosecution and first doing the profile and criticized by the local police, you know, and getting all that crap. And then the FBI got mad at me. and censured. And then when everything turned down great, they turned around, give me a letter accommodation. You give me a letter.

I spent five months in that case. They gave me a letter accommodation. You have to get censured earlier because I did an interview for People magazine with media there from the FBI. And they asked me, who is this killer? And I described this guy would be black,

his age and everything down. And so you shouldn't be talking to the press. Well, don't bring the press to me. You're immediate people. You know, people were there. So then they turn around when it's successful and the cops, everyone, hoodpip parade, they give me, they give me an award, a cash award, $200. Nice.

I was on this thing. Nice. And a letter, you know, out-boy letter, we call them. And $200 minus tax. And it showed up in my mailbox at Quantico. It wasn't even given to me. Right, right. I donated the money to the Navy Relief Fund.

I didn't want it. And but all this crap, and I went through, maybe a good leader. And even when Dealey died, where I appreciate, and I can spot people, hey, he'd be like,

hey, Jeff, you know, take, take, go home, take, you're working too hard. Right. And you see him walking out with the cases. Like, no, no, leave,

I'll handle it. And that's all against Bureau of Regulation. You can't send people home like that. But I was, you know, I was doing it back back then. So by the 85, this one here, the sheriff and under sheriff, both attended the Academy, and they were very,

it was a, they did a great job in a lab that the sled laps, South Carolina law and the department with that last will and testament, you know, how they get evidence off of that. Incredible. Yeah. You know, also, you talk about this book in this book, When a Killer Calls, how you used the, the family and also had them go in front of the press. And, you know, hopefully the press, I love how you give the press of that responsibility of hopefully the press will do what I think they will.

Yeah, because how is that changing in today's world, though. That has to be completely different. Yeah, it has to be. It has to be different. Although the Bureau has done some shady kind of things. Sorry, I would have. No. Yeah.

So the days, but like the days with, let's go back. Let's go back. The Tylenol case, I met with syndicated columnist Bob Green. I really wanted to meet with an investigative reporter. And I did this analysis of the case and everything. And I felt there would be one, there was one victim because in a case like that, the perpetrator wouldn't know who's going to ingest the cyanide lace Tylenol. So this one particular girl, Mary Kellerman, a young 12-year-old girl, I thought I can get the killer to go to the grave site. So I met with the, I didn't want to meet with a cynic.

I wanted to meet with an investigative report, but they told me to meet with him. But going back to speed ahead and I told how to poetically describe this, describe the crime suit. We're going to try to get the guy to go out there. And so he turns around, he writes this big article. I think it was in New York. One of some magazine about, I met this guy, John Douglas. They were knocked on his room at the Holiday Inn. He comes with a three-piece suit.

And I don't know if I'm doing the right thing as a journalist. that I didn't teach me at this college, you know. Oh, crap. The only thing about the story for your listeners and viewers here is that we didn't get, we didn't catch him, the Tylenol kill was that night. What we, who we caught that night, we had the, we had the headstone, actually wasn't a headstone of flowers were there. We had all, we had listening devices in that.

And what happened was that, we there three days, nothing happened. They were ready to break it off, fourth day, Douglas, you know, what the hell was he You know, so all of a sudden, a nighttime car pulls up and as a guy gets out and he walks up to our victim, this is it, this is the guy. He drops down. I mean, it's Mary. Mary Kellerman was her name, drops down on his knees, crying. You can hear crying. And now you can hear him saying, Susan, I'm sorry, Susan.

I didn't mean it. Who in the hell is Susan? It's Mary. It's Mary. Say something to Mary over here. So what happened is we didn't arrest the title and all that murder that. You know who he arrested that night? We arrested a driver of a hidden run killing.

He ran into kill this girl named Susan and had so much guilt and remorse over it. He went to like apologize to the victim. And so it's just interesting, not only the killers, but people go, I, you to your listeners, you'll go talk to your dad, to your mom, you know, and holidays. birthday. It's a normal thing. It's a normal thing. Why makes you think it's different? And I had some of the hardest criminals and they think they're so tough, you never could have got me because I, you know, I was swung as a fusion. And I said, wait a minute. I said, if I, I said, your dad is buried at Arlington Cemetery. Isn't he? Right. And I've been there. I've been there. And he looks at me.

And I said, yeah, I said, you went off the deep end when your, when your father died, when your father died, robbing. He ended up being an airplane. He skyjacked an airplane from L.A. to New York. And so, what if I told, what if I told the FBI agents to stake out the cemetery on your dad's birthday or the date of his death or Christmas? And he starts going back of his chair. So I was going like this. And he goes, you got me. Yeah, there you go. I know, you see what? We're learning. That's why I'm talking to you. This guy's name was Gary Trapnell. That's what I'm talking to you, Gary. he goes, no learning from you.

And they all liked me when I did these interviews. The worst of the worst. And if I would go with a partner, they always would look at me because I would talk softly. I'm not, I'm not going after him. And you didn't come in to be intimidating with them either. Yeah, that's right. And if Manson, you read my books, Manson is 5-2, I'm 6-2, I'm back. I'm looking up to him.

And let them feel like they have some type of control. and then just kind of almost almost mesmerize them at some point and taking them back at that at that scene, you know, taking them back. Well, that's kind of the main thing. I mean, that's one of the main things that is kind of a main thread for most

of criminals, I would say, is that control factor, right? I mean, in the end, that's one of the things that they thrive on. That's right. It's, it's, I was, I was, with the Bureau, I would say, was manipulation, domination, you know, control. Yeah.

They feel an airline. they've really never had it. So that's why, too, when you look around, it depends on the case, but you look for some precipitating factor at that time that pushed the guy out the door to perpetrate the crime. And later in my career, they even got away to doing specific profiles

with all the demographics because the purpose is to direct an investigation. At some point, I'm really a believer in working with the media. And you don't always see that today. You still the day. I believe, okay, you've had the cases, It's two weeks old, this cold.

You know, let the public have some information here. Like what? Well, you know, you can hold back the method of death, whether the victim was sexually assault or not. But I want to tell him about the, I want to talk about the pre-defense behavior of this guy, what he was like leading up to this crime. Maybe even a criminal history, something like that.

Somebody's going to recognize this person. Yeah, and then post-defense behavior, it's really important. Like in this case, the subject Larry Jean Bell, and within the analysis, totally changes his appearance. He loses his weight. He had a little short beard now he grows a full beard, obsessed with the case. And so those kind of things, you let the public know that. So it drives me. And that's when I came to think of the name of two little girls in Indiana on that bridge who they actually filmed the guy walking towards them.

And they would both be murdered. They would both be murdered. And the police sat on that. There was a video. They sat on that for a long time. And then the audio they sat on for a long time. Your listeners was probably shouting right now. It's so and so.

But it happened a couple years ago. And I was speaking at Indiana University. I was hoping some cops would come up to me about that case. I give them some ideas on that. And it remains unsolved. So I'm a big believer. And working with the investigative reporters and who are really good ones have kind of a mind. You'd be like that.

You have like a mind. You probably would have been a good profile of thinking. I'm all about it. I'm all about it. That's a choice I should have made. You're working with Glenn. He's a good guy. Some people like it.

John Douglas, I know I've kept you a lot longer than I had had. I really appreciate it. Your latest book, When a Killer Calls, and it was a great read again. And thank you for your time. Thank you so much. I enjoy it. You take care of yourself, and if I can do anything, you let me know. I told you, he's amazing.

Thanks for listening to Chewing the Fat. If you're listening to this and you're not a subscriber to this podcast, my gosh, nobody likes a freeloader. So choose a platform that you enjoy, maybe the one you're sneaking the listen on right now, and subscribe to chewing the fat. Thank you for listening to Chewing the Fat. Be safe. Stream and subscribe to more Blaze Media content at the blaze.com slash podcasts.

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