Chief Change Officer - #315 Jason Bloomfield: From Survival Mode to Systems Change

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Jason Bloomfield didn’t learn change in an MBA program—he learned it through real life. As a teenager, he became the de facto head of household. Now, as Global Head of People Change and Experience Design at Ericsson, he leads transformation across 180 countries. In this episode, Jason shares how active listening, design thinking, and human-first systems have helped him move organizations from dysfunction to alignment. From M&A integrations to HR tech failures, from -83 NPS scores to user-designed wins, his work proves one thing: change only sticks when it’s built with—not for—the people it’s meant to serve. For Gen Xers who’ve lived through chaos and are now leading through it, this episode is a blueprint in action.>>From Family Collapse to First Acquisition“I was the only one with income. So I had to figure it out.”Jason opens up about his early years, navigating a broken home while building stability from scratch—and how that experience shaped his instincts in business.>>Career by Constraint“They asked if I’d move to 1 Madison Avenue. I said yes—and just kept saying yes.”From wiring cables to managing a global acquisition across 13 countries, Jason shares how constraints—and curiosity—turned into growth and global opportunity.>>Change Starts with Listening“Active listening sends a signal: you care.”Jason breaks down why empathy is not a soft skill—it’s the hardest one. Especially when leading transformation across 100,000 employees and 180 countries.>>Turning a -83 NPS into a Shared Win“The tool was hated. But people started feeling heard.”He recounts how a globally despised HR tool became usable—through co-creation, honesty, and building feedback loops that actually changed things.>>From Paper to Trust“They didn’t hate digital. They didn’t trust institutions.”Jason explains how assumptions kill adoption—and how design thinking and diverse input helped his teams shift deeply entrenched behaviors.______________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Jason Bloomfield  --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.12 Million+ All-Time Downloads.Reaching 80+ Countries Daily.Global Top 3% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>140,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Oshul is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. I got approached by book authors, leadership coaches, business consultants, and venture founders quite often. They come with business purposes and goals, eager to share their ideas on books, practices, and venture ideas. I talk to each and every one of them,

taking it as an opportunity to make a new friend, get educated, and be inspired. But in this episode, the guest, Jason Bloomfield, came to me out of the blue one day. He isn't a book author, leadership coach, business consultant, or venture founder. He is a change maker in organizational transformation.

When I asked Jason why he wanted to be on my show, his response was, is about giving back. Vince, you're also giving back by setting up and running the show. I'm just joining you in the effort. Take this episode as a love letter from Jason to you on how to navigate personal and organizational change, from the disruption in his life caused by his parents' separation in the U.S. to his multiple roles across different long-standing organizations, resolving conflicts, bridging gaps, and aligning interests through M&A integration, tech disruption, and cultural alignment.

You'll hear stories and examples, strict from Jason's first-hand experiences. Get ready to hear how Jason has navigated change and made it work. Good morning, Jason. Welcome to our show. Thank you, Vince. Welcome to our show. Thank you, Vince. It's great to be here with you and your listeners. You can tell by the accent, I'm not born and raised in the UK, actually born and raised in the suburbs of New York, Long Island, in fact.

And about seven years ago, now, my wife and family and I, we moved to the UK, specifically in England. And what we're finding it here is it's very helpful to have a common language, asterisk. Things are spelled differently. Some words are used in different ways. Football, for example, meaning a very different thing in America than what it does mean here today in the UK. Yes. Football versus soccer. Yes, indeed. While you are now based in the UK, tell us a bit about your experience growing up in New York.

What was it like for you as a kid and what kind of things were you into back then? Certainly. So growing up in the suburbs of New York out in Long Island, I really enjoyed the neighborhood we were in and the friends that we made. And we were, I'd say upper middle class, if you will. And things were going along quite nicely until, and rather inconveniently, my teenage years, where focus on study really needs to ramp up. And instead, what was happening was that the relationship between my parents had really violently and rapidly deteriorated to the point where they were looking to try to have my sibling and I take a side and really they were so unable to actually care for themselves, much less my sibling

and I. And so in a very rapid fashion, my entire lifestyle changed where I then had to find a place for myself and my sibling, have my sibling live with me. And I was the one with an active income. It was a crash course for sure in life and home economics. Really necessity is the mother of invention. and those dire challenging circumstances socially, economically really created resilience and has enabled me to then take on some of other life's challenges

in the years since in a way where I feel like had I not had that previous experience, not that I recommend or suggest it to others by the way, but had I not had that experience I think it would recommend or suggest it to others by the way, but had I not had that experience, I think it would have been more difficult to get through. And I think one thing for sure, if anyone listening is going through a similar situation where you're having a high level of conflict and distraction amongst others, do know that it will take time, but at the end, you will find things to smile about again. So, in your early years, you can appreciate how it helped you become more

resilient to change and gave you a deeper appreciation for life. I'm curious, how did you manage to help yourself and your siblings settle down and rebuild everything from the ground up. It was a very nonlinear journey is the simplest way to describe it. But really my first work experience was a paid internship through school. It was what's a regional family-owned business. It brought together two passions of mine, which was business and the other is being technology.

And it really helped to awaken those two passions. And having done some really work, some great work that I'm proud of, building out offices, the first acquisition I ever did was actually with this family regional business, helping them take on another business. But quickly, what I wanted to then do was to get just some more broadened horizons, some differentiated experiences. And so there was a multinational company that was advertising an open role. And I thought, you know what, I want to make that move. I want to try to get a rationally recognized, turns out years later, globally recognized brand on the resume, or the CV as we call it here. And that leap.

And I started as an hourly wage person, connecting in cables from the person's laptop to the wall and setting up their voicemail on their phones and loading software by floppy disks. I'm aging myself now. To then getting the attention in a positive way of the corporate office that was based in New York. And so then they asked what I welcome joining the homoethis. And was that one Madison Avenue? It doesn't get any more New York than that. And from there, hard work translated into additional roles and responsibilities. And so after a few years, this kid from the

suburbs who never left the US at all, actually found myself being nominated to work on a global acquisition and an integration of a multi-billion dollar business located in 13 different countries. And I was in country, on the ground, working across 17 different work streams. And so all of a sudden, I'm learning things that I'd never imagined I'd learn. Tax, product, marketing, email. And when you have a street date or date where the transaction needs to close and everything needs to be ready, that's an immovable object. And that's where you discover the power of constraint.

It's a counterintuitive phrase, but really when you've got constraints, it forces things to happen and move. And thinking back on that experience, by far and away, and to this very day, the hardest work, the most stressful, and yet the most gratifying experience. We did things like a reverse acquisition, which is a phrase I'd never even heard of up until that point in time. And to this day,

one of the big lessons from that, which carry forward to change and change management is really building resilient relationships. And even though you can imagine if you're being acquired, you're going to have some natural fears and anxieties. Is my job safe? What's going to be happening to my position in the company, et cetera. And so it's easy to be at arm's length and to be distrustful. But through transparency and finding common ground

and emphasizing the common ground, talking more about what's in common than what's different. We built resilient relationships and we had some very opposed views on things like branding, for example, the local businesses were very proud of what they built, especially in places like Poland. And yet exchanging candid ideas, actually to this day, I'm still in connection with many of the people who we worked with on the side of the company being acquired and I was the acquirer. We still have a contact today and I think that just speaks volumes

to the power of relationships. But thinking about the school and the like, for me, I was the first in our family to go to college and it was not because actually that's what my parents were nudging. They were actually nudging quite the opposite. They were really suggesting a quick-sassed locational track, which has some merits to be sure, has some pros. It didn't align though with my passions around both business and technology. So I wanted to go to college.

And I remember growing up listening to my parents or uncles and aunts when they would come over, everyone hating their job, just hating their job, talking about night shifts and not liking their manager. There needs to be a different way. So either definition of insanity, do the same thing, but somehow expecting a different outcome. I was not going to do the same thing as them and expect a different outcome.

I was going to try something different. And what that outcome might be, who knew? But I definitely wanted to give it a go. And so after that, I did have to pause college studies though for some time so that I could care for the family. And then once they got to a point of self-sufficiency, I was able to resume. And it was really difficult balancing the needs of the family with what at the time was, I was very, I would say, work-obsessed. And either because it was just a level of achievement that I was inspired to reach for,

or maybe it was an escape from the personal circumstances and challenges that were going on. Which of the two? Maybe both, maybe neither, I really can't say, but I can say this, that it really forced me to rethink about things. Where there were times I would happily be working until 2 a.m. Not because anyone asked me to, just I was consumed and passionate and driven

to get things done, to move at pace. But I've since had to learn through a number of changes over life to recalibrate that in a much healthier way and recognizing that's not a luxury, that's a necessity. You have to invest in yourself. Think of the analogy around when you travel on an airplane during the flight safety briefing. What did they say about cabin pressure and putting the mask on? Put it on yourself first before helping others. And that concept is really important because if you're not there, if you burn yourself out, if you're not living and acting in a sustainable way, the people who count on you and the people who you care about, they won't be able to be helped by you.

You need to put your mask on first. There are times where you do need to be, I'll use the word selfish. You need to focus on yourself so that you can be able to support and care for those who depend on you and for those who you love. You've mentioned the word resilience quite a bit. First, in relation to your personal life and your parents' divorce.

And second, regarding the M&A integration you were involved in. Now with corporate restructuring, M&AsAs and cost-cutting all around us, I'm curious, looking back at your early days, where you were driving M&As, integration and navigating conflicts, how has those early challenges helped you become more successful, or perhaps, as you put it, more resilient in guiding your team, your organization through its own transformation. The big thing that's with transformation, I would say it's part instinctive and also through learning, it's something I've come to understand

is a really powerful instrument and that's empathy. And empathy comes from a number of ways, but particularly one mechanism that I employ is active listening. Not listening, active listening. What it does is it helps you feel the shoes of the person, of people across the desk, across the counter, across a video call to understand what he or she is thinking, to understand what he or she is feeling. What are their hopes? What are

their aspirations? What are their fears? What are their concerns? What are their anxieties? And when you build that empathy, what you're able to then do is to build a resilient relationship. And it starts because active listening not only allows you to hear and understand the other person, it sends a signal. It sends a signal to the other person or people just by listening that you care. Because in today's world it's just so easy to click and call for example, or if we were faced to go, oh look at the time, I've got another meeting I need to go. To just end that conversation and walk away, to disengage simply by actively listening. There's a signal there to the other person on the side of the conversation

that you do care, that you're interested, that what they say matters. And amplifying that to a global community where there's a feedback loop is how we're powering change now. And thinking about making sure that feedback loop is not just focused on those who are the most vocal, but it needs to be inclusive. We're a global company. We are in

180 countries and that is fantastic because what it does is it provides you with that diversity of thought. Now the challenge then is how can you be empathetic across 100,000 people in 180 countries? The answer is still the same. It doesn't matter if you're in one country and 18 people or a hundred countries and 100,000 employees. It's still the same thing. It's humanity, ultimately. By hearing a person out, you can find that common ground and you can then action it. And one of the things that we've been working really hard on is pivoting ways of working from a focus on functionality over to usability.

These are 180 degree opposites. From leading with a solution, work technology company, some, not all, but some people believe we can just grow a bunch of hardware software at something and that'll solve the day. Rather than leading with the problem, This approach around combining empathy, divergent thinking, and loving a problem as opposed to leading with a solution, these are some of the ethos or guiding principles of design thinking. Design thinking is a concept that I first got exposed to in 2018.

I took a mini MBA after Google in London. All light bulbs just clicked. I've since become a huge advocate, an evangelist, you might say, around applying design thinking to everything. And what's beautiful is it's industry agnostic, it's geography agnostic. It is plug and play. It works in every single context, bar none. Even in a not-for-profit space. In fact, some of the not-for-profits that I've supported being on their board, I would take them through a design sprint, which is a type of structured activity

that design thinking has to help them unpack a problem. And for them, it was cultural change. And after a day and a half, we did a compressed exercise. We had actionable ideas that they've since adopted, improving cultural appreciation and satisfaction across all measures. And diversity events is something I believe you already know is really a superpower. And I don't want to use a praise lightly. I'll give you some facts, right?

Because some of us are left brain, right brain. So McKinsey did a very famous study out in 2015. It was called why diversity matters. And what it did was it compared most diverse companies with least diverse companies and explained what they found when they compared business performance. And let me give you some quick bits of information there. So what they found was the most diverse companies tend to

outperform their peers by 15%. They are 15% more likely to outperform their less diverse peers. But that gap becomes quite stark when you compare top quartile companies in terms of diversity with bottom quartile companies. The gap then widens to 45%. Four or five. Now, talk with any business leader, technology leader, operational leader, would you happily love a 45% increase in your likelihood of being successful in being performant and outperforming your peers in the marketplace? Absolutely. And what's so great about that study and the follow on studies since in 2018 and again, I believe in 2021 is that it was found this was not a one time slash in the pan.

This wasn't a flute. This was actually fat and it helped to settle the debate. And so when we think about this global community of feedback loops that we have, we built diversity by design. What that means is we looked across functions, we looked across regions and geographies, we looked across seniority levels, we looked across tenure,

and we built by design a very diverse, representative, unbiased community. That is what's been shaping the things that we work on. So now the voice of the community is what's informing the technology priorities. And so there's still more work to be done. I don't want to sound as though we're at the finish line, but we have made substantial strides in now doing things that people recognize and care about and rewarding that with increased satisfaction scores.

One quick example, there's a tool, I won't mention the name for obvious reasons. When I first joined, it was far and away the single greatest concern and complaint among employees. the single greatest concern and complaint among employees. I said, okay, great, if we can't measure something, we can't manage it. So let's start measuring so we can manage. And that meant creating a global survey and some other things. And what we found was I wanted to use something that's globally recognized

and not proprietary. So we went with net promoter score, NPS. And it basically says, how satisfied are you with a bidding product to the extent that you would or would not recommend it to friend or family. The range for anyone unfamiliar with NPS, scores can go from a minus 100 being the worst to a positive 100 being the best.

I had never seen ever MPS scores this eye-wateringly negative. The first was a minus 83. And we are almost a year and a half, two years on from that point. We are now at a minus four. We're still minus, but that is a significant gain. And one of the things that we do is we transparently and candidly communicate all information, all results back out to employees, whether it's good or bad, no spin. We just are direct and candid and transparent.

They've started to appreciate that. But what I do is before we publish those numbers, I'll get some of the other tool owners, because we do it across tools now, and I'll preview for them, hey, here are the latest results. And one thing that really sticks with me, one of my colleagues said something really generous and said, you know what, these numbers are living in such magnitude, we haven't really done big changes in the systems. You know what I think this is? I think this is people feeling and knowing that they are heard.

And I go, wow, that's really powerful. And it would have been more, it would have been powerful if it was said to me one on one in a private conversation, but this person said this in front of their peers, and then their peers chimed in as well. And so I don't have a quantitative, crunchy business case for the power of change, but I can share with you this, that their belief certainly is having people feel and trust that they're being heard in of itself can help to elevate perception. And we see that now tangibly with scores continuing to increase.

In your experience working in large organization with such a long history and deep-rooted traditions, how do you introduce modern concepts and actions and get buy-in? How do you turn things around in an environment where values, policies, and even mindsets so entrenched? How do you successfully blend modernism into that kind of setting? It is quite a thing to come into a company that has 140, 150 years behind it. To your point, they've got ingrained norms, they've got ingrained ways of working. And then in a company that's large, you'll find subcultures. You couldn't paint with one paintbrush and say, ah, company X has this mindset or mentality

and company Y has this mindset or mentality. Actually what you'll find is within different businesses or different functional areas, entirely different cultures. But the consistent thing that I have found with companies that have a great heritage to them is that pride can at times obscure a line of sight on the way forward. And some examples, when we think about one of the big plays has been going from paper to paperless. And there's an economic element to that for a company. If you think financial services and if you have any investments, when you first become a client, you get a

huge stack of paper. When you do a transaction, you get some additional paper. At the end of the year, you get another huge stack of paper. Now, as a business, you've got some economic incentive with rising cost of post, rising cost of material, to digitize that. But what's the value proposition? What's the value exchange for the client, for the human on the other side of this handshake? And interestingly enough, at one company I was with, most recent one in fact, we were

really struggling with adoption of this not going above a certain percent. So I suggested to do something different. How about we ask? And it sounds almost too simple to be true, but this simple act of asking unlocked insights that surprised everyone. So the thinking going in was, these are retirees and therefore, they're less digitally comfortable

navigating the technology. And that's the reason. And so, we just need to increase training and the call center talking about it. That wasn't it at all. And what we discovered was actually, well, people in retirement age are much more digitally comfortable than by perception you might think that they are. Their challenge was distrust of institutions. They had this distrust that unless they had something physical and tangible that they can put in the filing

cabin and always refer back to and see the value, they thought the company might just update the values behind the scenes and not then authentically represent what happened. So there was a trust issue. And so the way to overcome that would be, what if you can simply save your digital statement just like you would, except now you don't have a bulky file cabinet, instead you could just save it on your laptop. Ah, light bulb goes off. Second light bulb goes off.

The incentive for them, one thing that they had concern with paper were people rummaging through their mail. So if people are watching the mail, they might say, let me try to grab an envelope and that's my gateway to identity theft. So what they found appealing was that no one could rummage through their mail, take paper and turn that into an identity test risk. And so that was another value proposition for them. Let me give another example.

We were looking into more environmentally and social governance or ESG, more sustainable investment products and making those available. And we thought for sure the compelling value proposition was that you can now vote with your wallet. You can invest ethically if you're against munitions companies, if you're against tobacco, if you're against companies or indeed markets, which don't have values aligned with your own, now you've got alternatives. And we thought that was a strong case.

I asked, can we please test this? So we did a focus group. We were dead wrong. The investors who were randomly sampled came in and we asked for their thoughts and opinions. What they wanted were returns, returns, good old fashioned economic incentive returns. Good old-fashioned economic incentive returns. It was really disappointing, I have to say, to hear people say they didn't really care about the environment. It was not their priority. Instead, their priority was getting returns. And so ultimately we had to just reposition this to say you can invest in the economy that was or you can invest in the economy

that will be. And that was the incentive to help move things along. So in this culture where people feel like they know everything, the most powerful thing you can do is to challenge that not in a confrontational way, but more like a what is. And you get them to listen, and those insights, I'm gonna say eight out of 10 times will surprise you and unlock and unblock outcomes that otherwise simply are impossible.

Among all these organizations you've been with so far, in financial services, in telecom. Your current role is with Ericsson in the UK. Tell us about your current mandate. I joined Ericsson two years ago as the head of people change and experience design. In the company, we call the HR function people. And so in most other companies, you'll hear it simply called HR, but really what that focuses across, we have digital tools, which facilitate HR,

people, transactions. And the thing that created my role gave rise to my role to begin with, was a very disastrous rollout of a tool. Again, I won't mention the name. That took place a year before I joined. The company became self-aware as to how poor the tool was received and was performing, and said,

okay, we need to bring in some change management to help here. When I joined to my manager's credit, when we were interviewing, they were very upfront. This is not going to be a walk in the park. This is not going to be easy. You are stepping into a minefield. Are you okay with that? So I have

to give immense credit to my manager and the transparency and authenticity through the interview process. But since then the ask was how do we make things better? And I'll zoom all the way out Vince. To first understand how things might get better we need to understand why they are the way that they are. And so tying back to active listening, I reached out to a number of stakeholders across a number of different areas and said, how did we get here? And that long pause was exactly the invitation to the other side to share what they were thinking, what they were feeling.

And from that, I took away five key lessons from a retrospective putting together these key views, and I've been actioning those ever since. One of those key lessons has been that really the tool was designed by and for the subject matter experts. It was not designed for or with co-created with the actual human, the person between the chair and the laptop, who day in and day out would be having to work with the tool. And so that's as an example now we have a definition of usability. It's no longer some nebulous subjective thing. We have built a definition of usability

and it is now threaded into our design process. And so that challenges everything from day one. And now I talked about the community that we have, we're co-creating with them, rather than just turning up with a finished product and going, this is going live on date X, there you go. Rather than doing that, and immediately you get an us-them type of dynamic, we are co-creating with them. So we're commenting them with, I'll call it in pencil sketches so to speak, some ideas. What do you think about this?

Tell us, what do you like? What do you hate? Then we'll come back. We'll close the loop, we'll come back and we'll go, you know what, great idea but just not possible, or great idea, we're going to do it, or something in between, maybe it comes later because it's just not feasible in the moment. But that co creation process is something that is really taps into the

diversity of thought taps into empathy taps into design thinking, that co creation process helps. The other thing though, was having to back to trust. When you've got a tool that's hated and has a minus 83 score, NPS score, and your humans who are using it feel distrustful and resentful of anyone having anything to do with it, what you need to do is you also need to be really careful

about how you position things. So when we started the global feedback community, I really wanted to be intentional around how we framed it. No, we don't have the answers. We wanted to make it about you, the person who we're gonna be asking for feedback. And so positioned it as an experiment on how we can make things better. What's important

that there is it does let people know and understand these people don't think they have all the answers. They are actively listening. And with experiments, sometimes you get things right. Sometimes you get things wrong, and it is always iterative. There is no such thing as a single time experiment, right? It's an iterative process. And simply by couching and positioning things in that way, it's more of a shared journey, a journey together. And the brand that I've given this process,

I say it's Your voice, our action. And that is the red thread between everything. So every single new thing we're doing in a system, I thread it back directly to, you said that you wanted this, or you said this needs to be better. Therefore, here is the improvement or here is the new capability.

And that's the journey that we're on right now. You are in the transformation function. It seems obvious that AI is one of the biggest forces driving change in human organizations today. What is your take on the strategy and approach leaders, people, workers should be adopting when it comes to AI? I'll share a little bit of my personal perspective

and then give some examples around how I'm applying generative AI today in a space that's really about hearts and minds. So when I think back, does anyone remember the metaverse? Do you remember Vince hearing nonstop all day long, every day the metaverse is going to change the planet? When was the last time you heard any mention of that?

And for me, it never clicked because I always asked myself, why would I want to use, in essence, a video game with really poor graphics? It didn't click. In contrast, with generative AI, I was helping someone update their resume. And I heard about ChatGBP and I go, okay, let's give this a go. And updating resumes is excruciating, but I said, let me help this person. I used ChatGP and it was like magic. And it was useful, purposeful magic. What otherwise took hours, now took a few seconds, and produced a very high quality product.

Now, when we think more broadly, what does it allow a hearts and mind function to do that couldn't do before? It's about scale and pace. So as an example, one of the settings that we launched was a global survey where we asked for feedback on our global digital tools and ways to improve it. High quality problem is we get thousands of verbatims, qualitative feedback.

That took me a week to go through, painstakingly, and cluster them or bundle them according to theme. I am now able to do that same activity in a week that used to take a week. I'm able to do that in a few hours. Now, my personal journey is the one that I would suggest and recommend for others is to experiment and find a purposeful value or user case for yourself to experiment with it.

There's risk and reward. There's something called hallucinations, which in simple speak means AI gets it wrong. I'll give an example. I used a number of tools. I asked it the same question, gave each tool the same data set. Three of the four got it right. One got it wrong. Had I just used that one and not checked the outcome, we would be looking pretty silly because actually

the one that got it wrong said scores were going down when in fact scores were going up. Now the other thing that it lets it do is you can with prompting and this will become I think for those who might be old enough to remember DOS, you had to type commands in order to get the computer to do what you want. And then we moved to Windows and you can simply move your mouse and click. But prompting is in essence, think of it as whether you want to call it HTML, whether you want to call it command language, whatever you want to call it. But the good news is there's no jargon associated with it. So you use natural language. The easiest way I would suggest a person experiments with generative

AI and interfaces with it, hype is though you're in a chat message with a colleague or a chat message with a friend, and you can do things like help create a survey, provide for me the top five insights from this data, help me carry out a change plan or devise a plan to roll out a new system. You can use various prompts so that you can say, do this in a humorous way. Interrogate this outcome from a skeptic's point of view. As a data analyst, do this.

As a strategist, do this. As a change manager, do this. And each of those different ways of conversing with the technology helps to produce an out. I'd suggest people think in this as a first draft. One of the most daunting things to do is to try writing and you're staring at a blank page, or if you're in a meeting and you've got a giant blank whiteboard, getting that first thing on can sometimes be a little difficult. Take that difficulty away. Allow generative AI to give you that first draft and then you humanize it. I don't believe now in this day and age, in our conversation as

a pap and Vince, I don't think AI is going to replace humans. There is that very common phrase, which I think is really important. It's not going to replace humans. It will replace humans who do not use generative AI. What the future holds, I will not pretend to know. I could not have foreseen how rapidly and how powerful generative AI has come to be. I could not have foreseen that despite my love of technology and business and following things closely. It was a pleasant surprise, though I dare not predict or forecast where it will be three or five years from now. But I do know this, that it is helping people now in a hearts and mind

space, such as change management, to do more and to do it in less time, because it's an extra pair of hands. It's an assistant. It's a great way to provide a first draft. And you can use it to anticipate objectives. And that can help you prepare and refine your value proposition, the why. Not the what, not the how, but the why for doing something so that it lands well with the community. Thank you so much for your time, Jason.

Thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.