Chief Change Officer - #387 Todd Davis: Inside 30 Years at FranklinCovey—What Most Leaders Still Get Wrong — Part One

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

Todd Davis didn’t just teach The 7 Habits—he lived them for 30 years inside the leadership company that built its name on them.As the former Chief People Officer at FranklinCovey, Todd spent three decades coaching teams, executives, and entire organizations on what truly drives effectiveness—and what quietly kills it. In this episode, he unpacks why trust is more than a buzzword, how most leaders think they’re being clear (but aren’t), and what’s gone missing in today’s fast-changing workplace.Whether you’re leading a team or just trying to survive your next meeting, this is your crash course in timeless leadership with zero fluff.Key Highlights of Our Interview:From Recruiting to the C-Suite“I was just hiring people. Then suddenly, I was leading them.”How Todd built a 30-year career at FranklinCovey without ever planning for it.The Secret to Long-Term Career Growth“I didn’t hop around jobs. I stayed put and made an impact.”Why depth, consistency, and trust still beat flashy résumés.The 7 Habits Still Work—Here’s Why“They’re not business tactics. They’re human principles.”Why The 7 Habits remain relevant—even in an age of AI and burnout.What’s Wrong With Workplaces Today?“People don’t hate work. They hate how work is designed.”The real reasons employees disengage—and what better leadership could fix.The #1 Leadership Skill People Get Wrong“Most leaders think they’re clear. They’re not.”How miscommunication erodes trust—and how to stop it from happening.______________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guests: Todd Davis  --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. I'll show it is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, we are talking about leadership, trust, and why AI still can do what humans do best. My guest is Todd Davis, former Chief People Officer at Franklin Covey, a publicly listed leadership training company. Todd is the expert behind the bestseller,

The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And he spent 30 years coaching leaders and managers on how to actually work well with people. In this two-part series, we get into the real stuff. this two-part series, we get into the real stuff. Why most leaders think they are clear in communicating and giving instructions, but they aren't. How trust is built like a bank account,

and why human intelligence is still the biggest competitive advantage. Oh, there's a wild story about these seven habits, changing someone's life in the prison. Let's dive right in. ["The Greatest Showman"] Todd, good afternoon. Welcome to our show. Welcome to Chief Change Officer.

Thank you, Vince. Really appreciate your invitation. Todd Davis is from Franklin Covey, a name that's practically a household brand in the U.S. So that's practically a household brand in the US. When it comes to leadership training, Franklin Covey is like Starbucks. Everyone knows it. At some point, almost everyone has either read one of the books or attended one of the trainings through the employers. And of course, one of the best-selling books in history

is the seven habits of highly effective people, honestly, who doesn't want to be more effective. But let's be real, workplaces today are facing big challenges. So I want Todd to join me and talk about how these habits can help solve, or at least alleviate some of these issues. Now, Todd, before we get into the book,

I always ask my guests about their own journey, the transitions they've made, the paths they've taken. But your story is different. You've been with Franklin Covey over 30 years. You are truly a loyalist. Tell us about your journey. What led you to Franklin Covey, what kept you there for three decades and how the role has evolved over the years that will dive deeper into the book and its impact. Thank you. Thank you so much. So yes, I have been with Franklin Covey for almost three decades. Prior to that, I worked in the medical industry for about 10 years and I was a recruiter.

I recruited physicians and other medical personnel to staff hospitals and to staff clinics for a couple of organizations here in the Western United States where I live and did that for about 10 years. And then some friends of mine, they decided to form their own outsourcing company for human resource functions, for people functions. And so they had an attorney to handle employment law and they had a benefits person. And they asked me, because I had been recruiting for so long, to join them and recruit for these various companies. And so organizations would contract with our group, provide these human resource services,

instead of hiring those kinds of people inside their firm. So we would contract with companies to provide those services. And what was then called the Covey Leadership Center, it was before Covey had merged with Franklin, they were one of our clients. And so they contracted with us, and I was involved in finding their consultants to ironically

to do what I do now, finding their salespeople and different things like that. And I had read the seven habits of highly effective people about a year before I started working, being a contractor for them. And I was blown away by the content and how it was helping me already change my life. And this is 30 years ago.

And so I loved being a contractor for them. And then they said that they wanted to bring recruitment in house. They wanted to hire a recruiter. So I, my hat in the ring and, and interviewed and was selected. So I started my journey with Franklin Covey as their recruitment manager. And, and then, and if I'm going too long, you tell me to speed it up. But I worked as a recruitment manager. And then I had in a previous life, I had worked as a content developer putting together training programs. So after I recruited for Covey

for a while, we merged with Franklin Quest. Franklin Quest in the US here was the time management company. They have the Franklin Day Planner. And everybody Franklin Quest in the U.S. here was the time management company. They had the Franklin Day Planner. And everybody over here in the U.S. had these day planners. They were very famous for that. And Covey Leadership Center, as you mentioned, was famous for the seven habits. And so we merged those companies and I went to work for their innovations department where we developed our training, different training solutions. And I did that for several years. where we developed our training, different training solutions. And I did that for several years.

And then the CEO at that time came to me, this would be about 20 years ago now, came to me and said, we would like you to apply for the Chief People Officer role. The person that was in that role had left. And I said, that's great, but I don't have any human resource experience.

I had recruited, but I didn't know anything about labor laws or employee relations or any of that. And he said, I know that, but you're really good with people. That's what he said. You're really good with people. So I applied for it and along with some other candidates and I was selected. And so I immediately surrounded myself with really talented people in the human resource area. And so that was about 20 years ago. And I did that. I was the chief people officer for 18 years.

And then a couple of years ago, well, about three years ago, we started recruiting for my replacement because I wanted to move into the role that I'm in now. And so for the last year and a half, almost two years, I've been a full time consultant where I go out and do our deliver our training. I do keynotes. I do podcasts, things like we're doing today. So that was probably a long winded answer to your short question, but that's been my journey. Unlike your job, unlike your current job, your current role. If you guys are hiring again, let me know. I'll send you my resume.

It'd be amazing. You and I have had a couple of calls now and I find you so fascinating. You understand human nature so well. You'd be really great at this, Vince. We have international partners. We're a global company. We've been in the leadership space for four decades, 40 years. And so as you said, here in the U.S., we say this with humility, but we're touted as the most trusted leadership organization because we've been in this space for so long, but we have offices all around the world and we have licensee partners that also cover Hong Kong and China. And so anyway, yeah, let's for sure talk about that after.

Thank you. Now you spend most of your career in the people function, serving as chief people officer for a long time, and even before and after that, staying deeply involved in people-focused roles. So while your title hasn't changed much, you've seen workplace challenges evolve over the years, both as the insider leading teams and as an outsider coaching and consulting with organizations. That brings me to a natural question. What have you observed?

We can go a day without hearing about workplace issues, such as downsizing, burnout, culture shifts. Every headline has something about the future of the world. From your perspective, what's happening? And why do you think the seven habits is not just still relevant, but maybe even more critical today and in the years to come. Thank you. That's a great setup and such an important, so many important topics you capture in that. So when Dr. Stephen R. Covey, who is the author of The Seven Habits,

when he first wrote The Seven Habits 35 years ago, what he did prior to that is all of his research was around effectiveness, like you said upfront. And we define effectiveness. People think of effectiveness as getting a lot of things done or being successful or whatever. We define effectiveness as getting things done, but not just anything, getting the right things done, the things that

move you forward, the things that moves your organization forward, your team forward. And not just once, but how do we get results today in a way that allows us to get even better results over and over again in the future? So that was the organizations of the people he studied, people that seemed to be able to do that. And then he identified the principles that were at work with these people doing that, and he put them into a format, he calls them the seven habits, put them into a format that we could talk about them, understand them, and most importantly start to implement them into our lives.

And so the reason that I have found that these have been as relevant, more relevant today than they were when Dr. Covey first wrote about them was because they're based on principles, principles of effectiveness. And principles, as we know, were as true a million years ago as they will be a million years from now. They don't change. Now the application changes, the way we put them to work changes in this ever changing world, but the principles themselves don't ever change. And so this book is timeless.

And I have found in my space, in the people space, if I remember these principles and I treat others in a principle-centered way, we can solve things, we can move forward, we can get past issues and help everyone move forward and progress. That's been my experience. The seven habits, the latest version is a revised edition of the original. What's new? What's been updated? And why was now the right time for a refresh? Yeah, great question. So it's been out 35 years.

The book is there might be a foreword that's updated. But the principles haven't changed. The habits themselves haven't changed. We don't really rewrite the book. But about every eight to ten years, we have a work session that goes along with the book. We have many work sessions. We have 29, 30 different work sessions in different areas of business.

But the seven habits is our foundational piece. And the work session that is about two full days worth of content, and that can be taught consecutively, that can be taught spread out, there's a there's an on-demand, you can self-pace. That changes, we update that about every eight to ten years because the application and how we put these practices or these principles to work change and so that's what we have just launched and what has changed in this most recent version, we just continually get make them more practical, more applicable, more inclusive. There when I say simplify, anyone who's read the seven habits, it is a fire hose of powerful

information. And sometimes people just don't know where to start. They understand it all, but they don't know how to apply it. And so this latest version, we've made it very, I don't want to say simplified, but very practical so that I can go through the course and I can start applying these principles tomorrow or tonight in my personal relationships and certainly in my professional relationships. Could you give us one example? You bet. So how we can, I'm happy to walk through all the habits, but let me just tell you, habit one is very foundational.

It's habit one for a reason. It's called be proactive. And it's based on the principle of choice. The principle being that we, well, there is so much you and I cannot influence or change. We can choose our response to any situation. In fact, when I have looked at your LinkedIn profile, Vince, and your background and history,

and you've had some amazing experiences and some very challenging experiences, and I've thought about the choices that you have made, the way you have chosen to respond to those situations. You know, we can't always create or fix the situation, but we can choose our response. So that's the principle in Habit One. And with some mindset,

we look at a paradigm for every habit. And the paradigm in Habit One is, I can't change how things are, so I just have to go with the flow. That's an common mindset. It's not very effective. The effective mindset is, I make my own choices and I'm responsible

for my own happiness that comes from those choices. And that's what I mean you do and you're what I've learned about you. So with that mindset, then I learn, okay, what are the behaviors I want to model? There are three behaviors or practices that we teach in Habit One. The first is to pause before we respond, to separate stimulus from response. We have to think about that because reactive response just happens. We don't have to think about it.

But a proactive response, we have to separate stimulus from response and decide how we want to respond. What's the most effective way? That's the first practice. The second practice is to work within what we call our circle of influence versus our circle of concern. We can be concerned with everything going on in the world and problems at work and policies and things like that, but

staying in that circle of influence actually shrinks, excuse me, staying within that circle of concern actually shrinks our circle of influence. concern actually shrinks our circle of influence. Affective people, they recognize these things that we're concerned about, but then they go into the inner circle and say, what can I do about this? Where can I start to make an impact or live differently? And then the third thing we talk about, the third practice, just to have a one, is using proactive language. And the science shows that it's not just talk positively and things will happen it actually programs our brain the positive proactive language opens up

the creative portions of our brain and the synapses in our brain to come up with more solutions versus reactive language shuts down that creativity there's an activity we do to get to your question. There's an activity, what are the activities we do there is people write a sentence, I may not be able to and then they fill in the blank, but I can and then they fill in that blank. So for example, I may have been in my role for a long time at my organization and I love the organization, but I'm tired of my role. In that activity, they would put, I may not be able to change my role, but I can look at other

opportunities within the company to, you know, change up what I'm doing every day. So it's training people how to actually use proactive language. I don't know if that's responsive, but that's. You've got seven episodes. And honestly, if we were going to do this properly, I would dedicate 7 episodes, one for each habit. Because it's not just about the principles, it's about the practice. And with all the clients you've coached over the years, I'm sure you've seen some incredible stories of transformation.

Is there one that stands out? Maybe a client who really struggled with one of the habits. Maybe they had their own reasons, their own roadblocks. But with your guidance, they were able to untangle themselves from that situation and fully embrace and practice the habit. Have you come across a case like that? Absolutely. And I could, yeah, and I know we only have an hour, but I, so I won't take all that time, but two things came to mind just now when you asked that Vince.

The first, this happened many years ago. We got a letter at Franklin Covey from a man who was in prison. He was incarcerated in prison. I don't know what crime he'd committed, but he had been in prison for about 20 years. And he wrote our company a letter and he said, I want you to know the seven habits of highly

affected people has changed my life. It was in their prison library and he picked it out, didn't know anything about it. And he said, as I started reading this, I looked back over my life and I could see areas where I could have made a different choice. And he said, even here in the prison, and I don't know whether he has the lifetime sentence or not, but he said, even here in the prison, and I don't know whether he was has the lifetime sentence or not, but he said, even here in the prison, I am learning how to be much more proactive. Think win habit for us to think when have an abundance mindset. Habit five seek first to understand then to be understood. He's and he talked about his communication

with the warden and with other prisoners and how this book had changed his life, even in this very challenging and sad situation. And again, he was there because of some choices he had made, but that was really powerful. More specifically, so many of the situations I found myself in helping leaders work a problem out between the two of them or helping an employee work with a leader better. We would reflect on all of the habits, but what I want to call out specifically is habit five that I just mentioned. First to understand, then to be understood. This habit is based on the principle of respect and empathy.

And so the point here is that as human beings, whether I live in the US, whether I live in Hong Kong, wherever, we have a tendency to listen to others with the intent to reply. We're listening to someone and we may not be talking over them. We may be eye contact and nodding, but in our minds, we're already formulating

what we want to say next. And it doesn't come from a bad place. We're helpers, we're fixers, we want to solve the problem. And so we hear just enough of what the other person is saying that we think, oh, I know how to solve this, or I know what I've dealt with this before. I know what their problem is. And instead of continuing to listen to them,

our mind is already working on the solution. And again, those aren't bad, but people who are truly effective, those leaders who are truly effective, they, I love the word suspend, I'm assuming it translates the same, but suspend is to not give up on, but to put aside for a minute my thoughts, my feelings, my response, and truly hear the other person. As much as I can put myself in their place, and I found a lot of people, they hesitate to do that because they think, gosh, if Vince is talking and I'm totally listening, they're going to think I'm agreeing with them.

And people don't. If you just listen, you're not agreeing or disagreeing. You're just listening with the intent to truly understand, not to reply. That is one of the most effective tools any human being, certainly leaders, but can do. I'll bet you have people in your life, Vince, that are like that. They don't judge. They're not advising or probing. They're just listening to understand.

And yes, they may say something like, so when you say that frustration, tell me a little bit more about that. They're totally in your space. It is one of the most effective habits we can develop. I guess in today's terms, they call this active listening or listening with curiosity, right? The reality is some people don't listen at all anymore

thanks to social media. Technology has framed people to communicate in a one way street, just saying what they want to say without any real interest in what others think. If they get a comment they don't like, they just delete it. Oh, this is hostile. I don't like it. But back to your point about real listening. Listening without judgment, without forming a response in your head, while the other person is speaking. It's about being present, really hearing what someone is saying, stepping into their shoe. Maybe they're sharing a tough experience instead of immediately

thinking, oh how would I handle this? Or what advice should I give? It's about sitting with that story, feeling what they are expressing. And in a business setting that's even harder, we are trained to analyze, to problem solve. Someone speaks, and we instantly jump to, oh, here's what you should do.

But what you are saying is we should hold back. Instead of rushing to fix something, we should focus entirely on the speaker, the situation, the thought, the emotions. And only then, if they ask for advice, do we step in with insights after fully understanding, not before. Did I get that right?

You said it perfectly. And I think you used the word a few minutes ago when you said, be curious, ask questions. In the course, in the book, and in my coaching, And I think you used a word a few minutes ago when you said, be curious, ask questions. In the course, in the book, and in my coaching, we talk about moving from I bet to I wonder. I bet Joe comes in late to work every day because he's probably as unorganized at home as he is here in the office. Two, I wonder why Joe seems so stressed out and hurried when he comes in.

I wonder what's going on. I should maybe take some time and get to understand him better. So it's what you said, Vince, it's this natural curiosity, or maybe it's not so natural, maybe it's this, but this mindful curiosity to have this active listening versus autobiographical listening, where we're listening through our own frame of reference, where we're filtering everything through my past experiences or the way that I see that. And we think it's helpful,

and it is helpful at a certain time, but not when we need to understand each other. Dr. Tevye said, the deepest need of the human heart is to feel understood. And I have seen that prove itself out over and over again. And you think about it, whether it's two friends or whether it's two colleagues or two leaders or a leader and employee, when they truly take the time to understand each other, not agree or disagree, but really

understand each other, they could solve problems that much quicker. You asked for a specific example that I'm remembering now, a Christian who came to me, they didn't feel like their boss recognized their talent. And I said, tell me a little bit more about that. Why is it that you don't think that your boss, it was a man? And why do you not think that he recognizes your talent? I just never hear anything. I don't hear anything negative, but I never hear anything positive.

I never hear anything about that. And I said, have you talked to him about that? And they said, no, I haven't talked to him. I would think that they should realize that on their own. And I said, I don't disagree with you. Let's think about what do you think would be important to him? And I did a little key chart. And I said, okay, so here's what's important to you from what I'm understanding. You'd like to be recognized a little bit more. You'd like to be given some more challenging work. We went through the list of the things and they said, yeah, that's it. What do you think would be important to him? And this person said, I don't know.

I'm not him. And I said, I understand that, but put yourself in his place. What do you think would be important to him? And this was a really seasoned, talented person, but they just, it didn't come natural to them, like it might to you and me to think about empathy through the lens of the other person So they said they probably want to make sure that they're recognized and I said, okay, let's put that down They probably want to make sure that the project we're working on is done on time. Okay, let's put that down

They probably care that that they're seen as a good leader So we came up with this list and I coached this person and I said What do you think about what if you took this list to your manager, your leader? You said, hey, then I'll call them Joe. Hey, Joe. I had some things I want to talk to you about, but I also in my thinking, I wanted to make sure I'm thinking about what's important to you. Here's a list I've created.

Can you tell me, am I off, am I on, are there things I'm missing? That discussion opened up this wonderful relationship between this leader and this employee. And in that discussion, the employee then said, I work really hard. And the leader said, oh, I know you do a great job. And they said, I never know that.

You've never told me that. And so this person helped the leader develop. Anyway, long story short, this all stems from habit five and really taking time to understand each other. A lot of what you talk about in your book, you call them skills, human skills. I like to call them human intelligence. We live in a world where AI drives the conversation. Every day is about artificial intelligence.

But what I've noticed over the past 10 to 15 years is a huge decline in human intelligence. I don't just mean things like empathy or resilience. I'm talking about basic skills, such as speaking, writing, listening. We have ears, we have eyes, we have a mouth. Yet so many people don't even know how to communicate like real human beings. Some don't even know when to say thank you or sorry. Some don't even know when to say thank you or sorry. And now people are outsourcing their thinking to AI. Writing which is so deeply connected to thought, analysis, and expression

is being handed over to tools like ChET GBT. I worry that if we continue down this path, we'll start losing the art of being human. What do you think? Is this a real risk? And if so, how do we stop it? I couldn't agree with you more. In fact, we just, I was just trying to find it here. We just used, ran and used a study.

It was done here in the U S of 290 organizations that use AI at least once a week. So they're high users of AI and their leaders were given a survey of what skills are most important for their success of the organization. And there were, they have 25, I wish I could find it, they have 25 skills laid out there, but the top three skills were creativity, interpersonal skills that you're just talking about, and creativity, interpersonal skills, and I think it had empathy, which is one of the interpersonal skills. But their point was these leaders were saying AI is wonderful, it's doing a lot of things for us, but it cannot replace these interpersonal skills.

This very basic, like you said, this very basic thing that I learned growing up from my parents as far as just respect and thank you and would you have a few minutes and the way that we not just nice things, but seems to really connect with other human beings. And maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't see AI ever replacing that. Even now, I've used AI to put together, I had to do a keynote for a couple of hours with an organization on generational leadership. And I worked in that field and I've done that, but I still, I use chatgbt and I said, hey, here's the elements I'd like to include.

And it put a straw model together for me. I had to apply my piece to that, but I think AI could be a very useful tool. But I think that human connection, it's a principle. It's not, it's always going to be, I was going to be needed. Even if I asked chat DBT to write me a letter or something, I'm going to want to go over it and make sure it has my tone and my, and saying the things in a way that I want it to come across to the other person. That's it for today. We've talked about what makes leaders actually effective. But next, we are diving into the real

human side. Why trust works like a bank account? The biggest leadership blind spots? And why most people don't really listen? Oh and wait till you hear Talk's prison story. See you in part two. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.