Chief Change Officer - #388 Todd Davis: Inside 30 Years at FranklinCovey—What Most Leaders Still Get Wrong — Part Two

Episode Date: May 25, 2025

In a world obsessed with AI, automation, and the next big tech trend, Todd Davis believes human intelligence is more valuable than ever.Sure, AI can crunch numbers—but can it build trust, resolve conflicts, or make people feel heard?In Part 2, we go straight into the human side of leadership—why most people don’t actually listen, why trust is like a bank account, and how one employee nearly lost her career over a simple blind spot. Todd also shares a powerful story about a prison inmate who transformed his life using The 7 Habits—a reminder that leadership isn’t about titles. It’s about impact.Key Highlights of Our Interview:The Art of Actually Listening“Most people aren’t listening. They’re just waiting for their turn to talk.”The leadership skill no one teaches—but everyone needs.The Trust Bank Account“Withdraw too much without making deposits, and you’ll be bankrupt.”How trust works just like money—and why leaders must invest in it.A Career Almost Ruined by One Blind Spot“She was the smartest person in the room. But no one wanted to work with her.”How self-awareness can make or break careers.The 7 Habits… In Prison“An inmate wrote to us saying the book changed his life.”How leadership principles apply anywhere—even behind bars.Why Human Intelligence is the Competitive Advantage“Companies are chasing AI skills. But what they actually need? People who can think, communicate, and lead.”Why interpersonal skills—not algorithms—will shape the future of work.______________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guests: Todd Davis  --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. I'm sure it is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, we are talking about leadership, trust, and why AI still can do what humans do best. My guest is Todd Davis, former Chief People Officer at Franklin Covey, a publicly listed leadership training company. Todd is the expert behind the bestseller,

The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And he spent 30 years coaching leaders and managers on how to actually work well with people. In this two-part series, we get into the real stuff. this two-part series, we get into the real stuff. Why most leaders think they are clear in communicating and giving instructions, but they aren't. How trust is built like a bank account, and why human intelligence is still the biggest competitive advantage. Oh, there's a wild story about these seven habits changing someone's life in the prison.

Let's dive right in. A lot of what you talk about in your book, you call them skills, human skills. I like to call them human intelligence. We live in a world where AI drives the conversation every day. It's about artificial intelligence. But what I've noticed over the past 10 to 15 years is a huge decline in human intelligence. I don't just mean things like empathy or resilience. I'm talking about basic skills, or resilience, I'm talking about basic skills, such as speaking, writing, listening. We have ears, we have eyes, we have a mouth. Yet, so many people don't even know how to communicate like real human beings. Some don't even know when to say thank you or sorry.

And now people are outsourcing their thinking to AI. Writing which is so deeply connected to thought, analysis, and expression is being handed over to tools like CHET GBT. I worry that if we continue down this path, we'll start losing the art of being human. What do you think? Is this a real risk? And if so, how do we stop it? I couldn't agree with you more.

In fact, we just, I was just trying to find it here. We just used, ran and used a study. It was done here in the US of 290 organizations that use AI at least once a week. So they're high users of AI and their leaders were given a survey of what skills are most important for their success of the organization. And there were, they have 25, I wish I could find it. They have 25 skills laid out there, but the top three skills were creativity, interpersonal skills that you're just talking about and creativity, interpersonal

skills, and I think it had empathy. So which is one of the interpersonal skills, but their point was they, these leaders were saying AI is wonderful. It's doing a lot of things for us, but it cannot replace these interpersonal skills. This very basic, like you said, this very basic thing that I learned growing up from my parents as far as just respect and thank you and would you have a few minutes? And the way that we not just nice things, but seems to really connect with other human beings. And maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't see AI ever replacing that. Even now, I've used AI to put together, I had to do a keynote for a couple of hours

with an organization on generational leadership. And I worked in that field and I've done that, but I still, I use chatgbt and I said, hey, here's the elements I'd like to include. And it put a straw model together for me. I had to apply my piece to that, but I think AI can be a very useful tool. But I think that human connection, it's a principle. It's not, it's always going to be, I was going to be needed. Even if I asked chat DBT to write me a letter or something, I'm going to want

to go over it and make sure it has my tone and saying the things in a way that I want it to come across to the other person. I am a Gen X. I'm 52, so I did not grow up in the digital world. I grew up analog. I was taught to write letters with pen and paper. If I didn't know a word, I'd look it up in a real dictionary, a thick one.

That's how I learned English. No Google, no smartphone. Of course, as technology evolved, I adapted. I learned to use calculator, then a PC, then Google when I went to business school. But the difference is people like you and me had that analog foundation. We embraced new technology, but we already have those role and core skills built in. So even now, when I use AI, I'm very mindful of how I use it.

I still write my own emails. I don't just say, hey, generate this for me. I don't want AI replacing my skills. It's really just a tool, no different from a hammer. But I worry about those who never had that training, who never built those basic skills to begin with. If they're not careful and mindful, they will outsource everything to AI

without realizing they're missing out on actual self-development. And that's a real problem in the workplace. We keep hearing how CEOs want employees with strong interpersonal skills. There was even an article the other day about HR leaders saying that they don't want to hire Gen Z because they lack social skills. So Todd, if you were still a Chief People Officer today and you saw this trend happening, where younger employees aren't developing and refining core human skills because they

over relied on AI tools. What would you do? How would you approach this issue? What can companies do to mitigate this before it becomes an even bigger problem? Again, my style, I would just call it out with people. I would talk, we would do some mass training on it. You got me thinking about, there was a person that I coached a while ago. This happened to be a woman and she was, she had, I believe, I know she had her PhD.

She, I think she had two PhDs, very intelligent, very intelligent. And she had been with the organization for a long time, with our organization for a long time, but nobody wanted to work with her. And they found, and she was super organized, like one of the most organized people I'd ever met. But because she was so organized, our strength becomes our weakness, right. And when things didn't go as planned, she had a really hard time adjusting. And so things and things never go as planned.

And so she was quite unpleasant to work with. And this is a really good person. And they couldn't see it. And they were passed over for another job and another job. And they came to me and said, I just don't get it. I applied for this job and I wasn't selected. And I have way more qualifications, you know, from an educational standpoint. And I finally got the courage to talk to her.

I didn't want to send her and I said, you know, I think I have an idea of what I see going on here. And they said, please, I don't hold back. I need to know. So we started talking about these things and it's so basic, but yet there are many really smart people who don't realize they're lacking. For example, I would go into her and I'd say, hey, look at the emails you sent me. And I said, your email, this last one said,

hey, Todd, when are you going to get me that report? And she said, was that offensive? And I said, I know you. So it wasn't offensive to me, but most people would start out saying, hey, Todd, I hope you had a nice weekend and everything's going. Do you think you'd have time to get me that report sometime this week? And she said, I don't do that because I don't want to waste people's time. I just want to be, you know, I want to be respectful of everything. So it's something that subtle that this person, based on the age they grew up in, they didn't realize, no, it's just common courtesy. It doesn't matter whether you're in Asia or whether you're in

North America or whatever. Those are common courtesies. And so that's what you caused me to think of that I think I'm maybe it's because of my age. I don't have a hard time. I'm very diplomatic about it. But I just call out with people I say, Hey, I've noticed something that is holding you back and I want to bring it to your attention. Yes, email manner is very hard to teach. Some people don't even reply to emails.

If they're willing, and this person is so wonderful, and they were starved for the help, they said, please help me, so they would send me their emails. And it's something Vince that we should, none of us should ever take for granted. Just because you and I were raised a certain way or learned certain things, we should never assume, and I did assume, well, gosh, somebody was a PhD, they got to know all this stuff.

No, they don't. And so she would send me her emails and say, would you review this before you send it out? They really wanted to get better. And she started to change and I'm not taking credit for that. She did all the work. But I think this gets to the point you're making or that I'm trying to make is that we have to want to, we have to be humble enough to say, I've got something to learn. I want to be self-aware.

And while I've been very accomplished in certain areas, where are some areas that I could get better in and be open to talking to other people and getting feedback? The next question ties directly to what we just discussed. We had the unique opportunity to experience life before the digital world, which of course reveals our age, but it also means we understand both sides, analog and digital. Now we are in a cross-generational workforce, but it's chaotic. If you listen to the media, here's what they say. Gen Z doesn't want to work. Millennials are burned out. Gen X is getting laid off. Baby boomers are not retiring.

Every generation gets labeled. Each has its own set of challenges. So I want to pick your brain on this. From your experience, how should companies approach the situation? And looking at the seven habits, How should companies approach the situation? And looking at the seven habits, do you think any of them could help teams and organizations take better control of generational diversity in a way that is more effective? No, you flatter me.

And a couple of things I want to clarify. You are much younger than I am. I said so when you want to clarify. You are much younger than I am. I said so when you say our generation, you're much younger than I am. But I did have the analog upbringing as well. As you talk about this and you said something up very front, we first started talking about my time in the people field. Whether I'm a baby boomer, whether I'm a Gen Xer, regardless of my generation, this is my belief. And I've seen it play out and work well for me.

Everyone wants to matter. We show up differently, but we all want to matter. We all want to be a part of something that matters. We all want to contribute. We all want to know that we're making a difference. And so the leaders I've coached that have very many, they have several generations in their teams, I have said, if yes, you have to talk to Joe different than you talk to Vince,

and you have to talk to Vince different than you talk to Susan. But remember, human beings, we all have this in common. We all care, we all wanna matter, we all want to feel valued, we all want to make a difference. And as a leader, I've learned that if I keep those fundamental principles in my mind regards to the generation I'm doing with, then I realized, okay, that this

person, they want more flexibility in their, I'm making this up, but they want more flexibility in their workday. This person, it's more important to them to be recognized in front of everybody. This person doesn't like to be recognized in front of everybody. That's fine. I can treat all those people differently. We pay for results, right? So if they're providing me for the results, what do I care if they work five hours late

at night and three hours during the workday? Now different industries have different requirements and some people need to be in the office and some people need to be FaceTime. But I have coached so many leaders where they said, I think people, especially after COVID, have different requirements and some people need to be in the office and some people need to be FaceTime. But I have coached so many leaders when they said, I think people, especially after COVID, a lot of organizations, I need people to come back to the office. And I would say, dad, help me understand why they need to be in the office just so I can see what they're doing.

Okay. So did their productivity drop when they were working from home? No. In fact, one of them had actually increased. Okay. So why do they, if they don't want to come back to the office, what are you paying them for? To see them at their desk or for what they produce? And again, I'm learning too. I don't have all the answers, but if we can get back down to the basics of human beings and what's important and try and put ourselves in their shoes,

we can not only treat them with the language and the way they want to be treated, they're going to be that much more engaged and they're going to bring that much more of their best selves to work every day. I went all over with that one, Vince, but that's my response. I completely agree with you.

In the digital world, we've become so used to relying on technology to solve problems. And yes, technology is powerful, but at the end of the day, it's just a tool. The other day, in another interview about AI, I said, it's not just about AI. Before AI, we had apps. Before AI, we had apps. Before apps, we had software. But to me, apps are no different from a hammer or a screwdriver. We live in a tool economy.

There's always some tools to fix something. And sure, tools are useful. I need a screwdriver when I need to fix something, but it can't fix everything. Now we're entering the era of AI agents. By the end of this year, we'll see even more AI solutions, both for businesses and individuals. They will solve some problems, but they won't solve everything.

In fact, that's a risk in relying too much on technology. For example, collaboration. They are billion-dollar collaboration tools, but in some ways, they're actually dehumanizing the way we work together. So at the end of the day, it's not just about having the right tools. It's about keeping humanity at the center, making sure we don't lose the human touch as we build and use digital solutions. And that brings me to trust. You talk about trust a lot and I agree with you, it's critical. But right now, trust in the workplace is fragile.

Employees don't trust their employers, especially with all the layoffs, disengagement, and burnout. We see things like quiet quitting and mass resignations. So in a world where trust is fading, how do we rebuild it? From your perspective, what mindsets or habits help strengthen trust in the workplace? What can leaders do to make trust real again? I think the number one priority for everyone in this world, professionally and personally, should be relationships.

I think nothing is more important than our relationships. And I think if you ask anyone, regardless of what part of the world they live in, at the end of the day, if someone we care about needs our help, we drop everything to go help. If there's an urgency or emergency. So I just think it's our nature as healing beings on this earth that relationships matter. And the foundation of all foundations

in any relationship is trust. Whether it's my professional relationship with my boss or my colleague, whether it's a personal relationship with one of my friends or one of my kids or nieces or nephews, it's the level of trust that we have. Do am I someone that's trustworthy? Do they trust me?

Do I do what I say I'm going to do? Do I have integrity and can I trust them? Doesn't mean we're perfect. Doesn't mean I never make a mistake or they never make a mistake. But it means that our intent our intent is to do the right thing and to build that trust. So I believe trust is at the heart of every relationship, every good relationship. And the lack of trust is of course at the heart of every bad relationship.

And so building that trust, just like the example we were talking about earlier, if I'm a leader of multiple generations and I'm busy and I've got a lot to do, but I still take the time to understand each and every individual and what's important to them as far as flexibility, as far as recognition, that builds trust with them because they know that I care about them. And some people hear it and they think, okay, it's what's about being nice. Yeah, it's about being nice, but more importantly, it's about getting results. And if I take the time to make what we call it in the seven habits, deposits in the emotional

bank account of others, if I take time to make a deposit in your emotional bank account, it raises the level of trust. In the EBA or the emotional bank account, much like a financial bank account, we make deposits and sometimes because we're human beings, we make mistakes, we take a withdrawal. But if we've made enough deposits in the emotional bank account of the people who were most important to us, then when an accidental withdrawal happens, we don't bankrupt that relationship. There's enough trust built up in there. So that's my take and my philosophy on trust.

Yeah, some people use an other analogy, which is insurance policy. You keep contributing and at some point something happens and that's how you're supposed to draw on the policy to cover the downside of that situation. Yeah, I like that analogy as well. And what we, what's the analogy we use of making deposits. I bet you've experienced, I know I've experienced those people who they're making deposits, but they're not sincere deposits. You can tell something's going on.

They're trying to schmooze you, a word we use in the U S to butter you up or to make you feel good because they need something, they need a favor, they need you to do something for them. Instead of just being open and honest and saying, hey, I need your help, would you be willing to help me with this? They try and build up this fake deposit, I guess is what I'm saying. Being sincere is a huge part of our trust accounts with people. Yeah, like you mentioned, so much of what we've talked about

comes down to human nature, which is universal. It doesn't matter where you're from, your culture, your background, these workplace challenges exist everywhere. That's actually one of the reasons I created this show, to engage people from all walks of life, from different parts of the world. Because burnout, disengagement, and workplace struggles

aren't just happening in the US. They are happening everywhere. The difference? In some places, people just don't express it as openly as Americans do. They might not say, I'm quitting my job tomorrow, but that doesn't mean they aren't feeling the same pressure. That's why I've really enjoyed this conversation.

These are real global challenges. So as we conclude, let's go back to the 7 habits. Each of them is important. But if someone wanted to start with just one, the foundation of all seven, the habit that if mastered properly would make it easier to develop the rest. Which one would it be? And why? Yeah, that's a tough question. That is a tough question. And I'd answered it differently at different times. I've been asked something similar, but right now,

and maybe it's just based on how the last couple of months have gone, habit number three is put first things first. It's the habit of focus and prioritization. And again, all of the habits work together. But I think right now with everyone with so much on their plates and everybody's being pulled in different directions, to decide in Habit 3, we talk about how do you prioritize? Because it's not like we're choosing between good things and bad things to spend our time on.

We're choosing between a lot of good things, but how do we decide what are the most important things? If we can never get everything done, what are the most important things? Who are the most important people and where am I spending my time every day and every week? And I think about, we teach the principle or the concept of weekly planning and spending a time at the beginning of your week, whether it's Sunday night for a lot of people. Sunday night, I take about 30 minutes and I connect back,

first of all, with my mission. It's a written constitution that we put together. What do I say I'm all about? What do I think is most important to me? And then I connect with the most important roles in my life. My role was Chief People Officer as a coach or a consultant, as a parent with my kids. And I list those out. And then I look at my coming up week, the week coming up, and I say, okay, a lot of my time is booked up with business things, but am I spending time sometime during the week in those most important roles? And the reason for some reason Vince when that came to mind

just now is because I think too many of us we think about I'm going to do this someday. I'm going to start being better at this someday or I'm good and all of a sudden a week turns into a month turns into a year and all of a sudden the time has passed and so by planning your week each week before the week begins is such a satisfying thing. The weeks never go perfect, but you get to the end of the week and you really feel like you've made some progress on what you have decided is most important to you.

So that's my answer right now. Yes, figuring out priorities, planning ahead, and making progress step by step. Of course, things don't always go as planned. Life isn't always organized. But what matters is knowing what to focus on, where to put your energy, and what truly deserves your attention. Being effective, whether as a person, a leader, or in any role, isn't just about doing more or doing things faster. It's about doing the right things.

And that brings us full circle to what effectiveness really means. Putting your energy into what matters most. At the end of the day, it comes down to being human. Practicing human skills. Using our eyes to observe. Our ears to listen. Our voices to communicate. These are what make us unique as a species. Yes, AI is powerful. It's an amazing tool.

But it's just that, a tool. I actually spoke with another guest about this recently. How moving forward, everyone will need their own AI strategy. That's right, not just companies, but individuals. We need to be mindful about how we use AI, when to use it, and what we shouldn't outsource to it. Because we still need to develop our own skills,

our own intelligence, and our own wisdoms. AI can assist, but we are the ones who bring meaning, creativity, and judgment to the table. I agree on a percent. That's where I'll leave you. We've covered trust, leadership, and why human intelligence is the real key to the future of work. The real question now is, what's one thing you can do today to build trust in your own team? Think about it. Big thanks to Todd for sharing his wisdom. rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host.

Until next time, take care.