Chief Change Officer - #396 Colin Savage: Why Skill Stacking Is the New Lifelong Learning — Part Two

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

In this episode, Colin deconstructs the romanticism of “lifelong learning” and makes a sharp case for skill stacking—not as a buzzword, but as a career imperative. From the strategy rooms of Japan to the boardrooms of Canada, he unpacks the realities of navigating change in cultures, families, and workplaces. Plus, why some organizations say they want transformation but are actually addicted to the comfort of legacy systems. If you’re tired of collecting degrees that lead nowhere, this one’s for you.Key Highlights of Our Interview:The Illusion of Change-Readiness“Some companies claim they want transformation, but really, they’re just addicted to the status quo. I’ve seen firms hire me as their ‘change guy,’ only to resist every proposal I made. You can’t retrofit a new future if people are still clinging to an old playbook.”Measured, Not Maniac: Change the Japanese Way“In Japan, change isn’t chaotic—it’s deliberate, strategic, and often unspoken. Success meant listening, researching, and quietly building allies one by one. Change doesn’t have to be noisy to be real.”No More MBA Decisions in a Vacuum“Career decisions ripple through families. Too often, we forget that behind every ‘yes’ to an opportunity is a spouse, a child, or a life partner who wasn’t asked. Real transformation involves everyone at the table.”Lifelong Learning Is a Vibe—But It’s Not Enough“Learning for learning’s sake isn’t a strategy. Without direction, it becomes a distraction. The future belongs to those who don’t just keep learning, but stack those learnings to build something sharper, deeper, and more useful.”Skill Stacking vs. Degree Collecting“My bookshelf has diplomas and dust-covered guitars. Not all knowledge needs to be monetized—but if you want to be valuable in a complex world, stack your skills like a staircase. That’s how you move up and across.”Tools, But No Toolbox?“We live in a tool economy. Got a problem? There’s an app for that. But most people aren’t solving root issues—they’re patching over symptoms. Without connecting your skills with insight, it’s just noise.”Personal vs. Professional Learning“Skill stacking is for the professional you. Lifelong learning is for the human you. You don’t need to turn your love of modern African history into a job. Sometimes learning is just for joy—and that’s okay.”From Change Addict to Change Architect“I used to go full throttle. Now I slow down, talk more, and push less. Change is a collective journey. It doesn’t matter how fast you’re driving if no one’s willing to ride with you.”_________________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Colin Savage  --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. This is a three-part series with Colin Selvidge. In part one, the first episode will dive into Colin's fascinating journey as the self-proclaimed change addict turned change guru. Colin's career spans continents, cultures, and industries.

Seven countries lived in, seven more seconded to, and projects in over 70 nations. From organizational transformation to personal reinvention. He has mastered the art of embracing change and applying those lessons to life. In this conversation, Cullen impacts his unique perspective on change. How throwing himself into the unknown led to unparalleled growth and insight. From leaving Canada with nothing but a suitcase and ambition, to navigating industries, from telecommunications to financial services, Collin shares how the constant evolution around him

became his greatest teacher. In the next episodes, we'll explore the learning required for transformation, why Colin believes lifelong learning is outdated and skills-decking is the future. And finally, in part 3, we'll tackle AI, human intelligence, and why every one of us needs a personal AI strategy.

Buckle up, this one is a ride. Like you said, one of the threats running through your experience is change and strategy. You've worked with so many firms and organizations, guiding them through their transformations, so you must have seen Cogniz business cases unfold. What have you learned from these consulting projects and organizational change initiatives that could apply to individual situations?

Are there lessons from these business cases that also resonate on a personal level, especially when we face dilemmas or curse roads in our own lives? One example is going to be a bit of a surprise to people because they will have read potentially how traditional this country is, and this was Japan. So I lived in Japan, as I mentioned, for quite a long time. And with the Japanese Life Insurance Company, we're in Brazil, we're seeing something that's a bit unique.

In Japan, one of the largest minorities, really. And they are people who travel to Japan as youth, they have access to visas and other things, and they start their working life in Japan. So they're actually indoctrinated. They learn working culture from being in Japanese companies, a lot of them. In other words, they learn things like, hey, life insurance is important, you need to have it. The discussion went, how are we going to go build this business idea? And what came about was I learned that change, individual, team, and otherwise, comes from talk, doing a lot of promotion. So Japan is a lot about individual conversations to get support or get direction. Big organizations are great at providing that direction, but often indirect.

You have to be a cute direction. So, hey, why don't we consider this? Why don't we do that? But also, it's measured and it's planned to change. You can't just come up with an idea and throw it at people and get them to say yes or no. You've got to research your idea. This is the market side.

These are the people, this is what they would buy. This is how it would benefit them if they stayed where they are or then when they moved back. This is how we could link Dovetail or a pipeline into getting new people in a new market we might make. So it took a lot of time but I was very surprised and very proud that we actually managed to get this kind of a thing. Yeah. We, I got support from lovely people within the organization. They provided their time to me.

We moved ahead, it took two years, but the change did happen. And it was actually a real shining example of just because you think a culture and a group of people are traditional in their practices doesn't mean they're averse to change. You just need to be in that change addict thing we were talking about. Not willy-nilly, not, Hey, let's just do it for the sake of doing it. Be measured, be strategic, be researched in what you want to change, and then find the kind and support of voices.

And if you find enough of them, you'll get a groundswell and you'll be able to do it. If you don't, maybe your idea really isn't that great. Maybe you need to go back to the drawing. So learn to take the interest and the novelty and the energy that comes from a potential change and have it fuel huge, do the really important steps, the fundamental steps to maybe make that change happen. And the flip side would be actually back here in Canada, I worked for a quite traditional marketing company.

Probably if I tell you who it is, people will know right away. They brought me in as a changed person. That's how I was recruited. Please come here. We know our industry is on the decline. We're not really entirely sure where to go with it. We've seen what you did in other places. We're eager to change. We want to change. They used all the right words. They were very receptive to the idea before I moved in house.

I got in there and I asked, do you want me to be disruptive? Would you like me to push new initiatives? Absolutely, if this is what we we want and within a month of me doing that We don't really like it or That was a little too much the reality is they were a different kind of ad They were hooked on a legacy of very high Revenue and high profit margin and they weren't willing they really weren weren't willing and hadn't done the time to figure out do we want to change? Are we willing to forgo some of that to potentially make it somewhere else or maybe not? And even though they had all of the support allegedly support from people above and

their ownership and others. They were incredibly reluctant to do it. So I was sitting in a role where change was in my title, but I couldn't do any. And I had tried, I had built up goodwill. I got some champion. I was doing everything that change management told you to do. Pushing the needle here, tape scaling here, and for the time period that I was there, they were wholly unwilling to take it on. At a certain point, I had to, you know what, it's not going to work for me.

I'm pushing the rock up, ill, whatever the to do. And I'm not getting anywhere and I'm being told two different stories. So we dig into it with might have really like an external push from other people. So we don't want to do it. And it ended up being a failure for myself. And it's something that I, I've taken on and I've learned a lot of really good lessons from it and frankly had some work with some wonderful people that were driven to do it. But when the entire organization has been dictated change and not really trusting of the person who's supposed to pilot it, then it's not going to happen. But in this instance, it's a little bit about, it's maybe less about the change addict thing, but learning how that change guru, if that's a good

word or change guide, which is, all right, maybe we need to take a step back, figure out what is your definition of change? If it's collectively the same, do we all think it's a good idea? Okay. Maybe we need to tailor a little more. And then move on from there. And that's hopefully where I am now. And how I actually go about it a little bit more.

There's a little bit less, less put on the gas, more, let's put the car in park for a second and let's have a talk. We'll drive a block down the road and then we're gonna have another talk. And that way we can going to have another talk. And that way we can get to the kind of change that we're all trying to achieve. And back to that definition of six steps, not just keep that directed by the outside

or financial reasons only, the whole way that we're going to evolve and change for the better. I can totally relate to your Canadian example. I've had a similar experience myself. We can chat more about it offline, but eventually it led to me leaving that company. If I think about it in a more personal context, like within a family, change isn't just about one person, it's a group decision that can lead to challenges too. For example, when I used to help younger professionals plan their MBA career paths, many of them would ask me, Vince, should I apply to this school or that school? Should I study in this city or another city? Often, these decisions weren't just about them.

They were married, so the decision had to include the spouse. My answer to them was, this isn't just about you. What does your husband or wife think? Have you discussed whether it will mean long distance for two years? Will they move with you? If they do, will they be able to work? If not, what happens then? That's where the tension often starts.

One partner wants to change, but the other doesn't. Or they see the change differently. It creates conflict, and that's not unlike what happens in a business sector. One stakeholder might push for a big transformation, while others hesitate or resist because the interpretation of change is different. So yes, I think that dynamic applies across contexts, personal or professional.

My neck is hurting from how much I'm nodding for your example. Because one of the reasons and one of the benefits that I've had, the partner that I'm with, and she's actually been my sage, she's been my guide. The example that you would somebody from China, one of you in the NBA, they're married, what are they gonna do? I have basically dragged my partner and then our kid around the world. It was only until the sort of the last one or two times that I realized I need to sit down and I

need to talk to her. I need to ask her what are you, what do you think about it? Not just me moving for a job and to be the traditional one at the time, but not anymore, but the breadwinner for a public. She has been the one that said, okay, so we're moving. All right, where are we moving? And then hit the ground running. And it was only later on the last couple of times that I've asked and I'm concerned about this, or I'm not sure how that's going to work or what are we going to do in this

time? And a lot of the things she's done is really ground or why we were going to go and move somewhere, why we were gonna make this significant change in our lives. To your example, I'm gonna take it on and then everything's gonna be hunky dory and we're all gonna be happy and but they weren't, they didn't know that they could voice it. And so now it's more like a

collective so now we're sitting around in Canada and we're thinking so what's the next step and my first step now is to go and talk to my two teenage sons and my wife and they hey guys what do you think about this and the the reality is whatever our age is and wherever our life has taken up reality, whatever our age is and wherever our life has taken us, they'll come up with questions and problems and scenarios or that's a chance, that's difficult. And you've got to be a little bit more soul-searching to figure out, is this really right for me? Is this really what should happen? And if it doesn't, how is it going to go and how can I deal with it as and where it goes? Actually you have so many degrees that

People often ask me this are you collecting degrees? I Usually laugh it off and say no. I have three and I talk each one very seriously. I Don't even bother explaining why I pursued two MBAs anymore. But looking at you, Colin, you have even more. Would you consider yourself a lifelong learner? I imagine you have some strong opinions on that term. A lot of people lean on lifelong learning when they are at a crossroads or want to make a change in their lives. They fall back on education, upskilling, retooling, whatever the buzzword of the day might be. But you've shared some interesting ideas with me about skills decking and how that might offer a more impactful approach.

So what do you think of lifelong learning as a concept? How do you see it evolving and where does skills decking fit into the equation? Very recently I found myself and I think this also leads a little bit to my love for novelty. I don't think a day goes by where I don't find a topic that I go, hey you know what, I should really study this. And then I go and I start to spend 10 minutes looking for universities where I could go and I can study and I don't know if I'm ever actually going to get over that practice but to talk to your specific comment about lifelong learning to skill-packers so I am the the product to academic people.

So both of my parents were educators. They both were educators at all different levels. They were both academically inclined, and so was our family. And it was ingrained in us very young in two ways. And the first one was we always had a room in our house. There was more of a study than a den. It was a room where there was a lot of books, a lot of things

by the wall, inspirational quotes, all that kind of thing. And my parents often argued about who got to the big desk and do their writing and do their research and whatever else. And on one of the walls were all of their degrees. So that's it. From a very early age, I'd look up at a wall and I'd see lots of paper and very nice frame. Oh, what are those? Well, that's my degree in education. So that was the first. And then the second one was, and this came more from a grandparent who actually didn't have a lot of education. He would relay to us at Wilkes-Ed all the time, you know what, like somebody can, they can take away your house, they can take away your possessions, they can take away your money, they can take away your family, they can take your health, they can do all that kind of stuff.

The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that. I still all that kind of stuff. The only thing that they cannot take away from you is your education. And so I still believe that. I still believe that's very true. And so anyway, from a long, from my early age with those kinds of two things, uh, it was education is important, right? And you should constantly be learning, right? And I don't, I didn't know at the time that yeah, I constantly be learning. Now it's related to keeping technology and technological advances and things like generative AI that I'm now studying.

It was more like you just should keep learning all the time. My parents were very flexible and it didn't really matter what. But it was important that it was with somebody who knows it, so there was an expert. And at the end, there was going to be some kind of written comp. There was going to be a degree, a diploma, letters behind your name, whatever it is. So that's lifelong learning. For me, there's continually learning from established institutions, programs, gathering up the diploma and

other things and really the area doesn't matter. Lifelong learning, learn whatever. But lifelong learning is I think it's an outdated concept and particularly because it just lacks focus. I may be an example of that and that's where I studied English literature, I studied philosophy, I studied liberal art. Then I went to Japan and then I did a master's degree in modern Japanese literature. Okay, there's a little bit of a connection there with literature, but different cultures, different language. Then I go to the UK and I do a master's degree in social anthropology in South East Asia, learning Burmese. I lived in lots of

countries, but that's where the interesting cultures, the people come from. I can back up again and kind of connect them, but they didn't really have a focus on building expertise. They were disjointed variety of individual level, their understanding and mastery of skills and discipline and then I had to actually build pathway connect and one of the pathways that helped me do that was doing an MBA at Durham in the UK and so I connected section anthropology I connected multi-generational stuff and I can did the farmland management or business to figure out a metric to understand or support multi-generational organizations with different levels of performance management and guidance.

But it wasn't purposeful. Fast forward a few years, now we're into the pandemic. I'm living here in Canada. I'm sitting like most of us were in our own little home opposite. I'm going through things like LinkedIn learning and other places, and I'm noticing connectivity between, hey, what if I learn how to be better at doing online presentation and whatnot from the short course, then I can use the skills that I learned as a lecturer to maybe coach it in-house in my company. So everybody will be better at sitting in virtual meetings. Hey, there's this new performance management tool online because we're all living remotely, so we're worried about efficiency and all those kind of things. How did I learn the technology behind it

to maybe adapt it so we can add it to the practices we have in town? There's still a little bit of traditional paper-based building, building and building. So what happened was, I'm not entirely sure that stacking is the right word. I think it's more like staircase and you've got overlapped half or a little bit more, but then

you branch off into new areas. But you're constantly building it up. And now to round off my comments, now I'm learning for the last two years, generative AI and the blurred large language model development. I've learned prop engineering, all those kinds of things. But now that's actually connecting back in like almost reverse skill tracking with clear thought and clear writing. If you're not a good writer and you're not good at generating good writing,

good step-by-step way to do something, to build the proper prompt, it can't do what you want. It doesn't deliver what you would like. And so you'll spend extra time tweaking it and tailoring it so you finally get to what you would like. But if you were good at writing, which comes from spending a lot of time in literature, and you're good at research,

which helps you figure out the steps to be able to get the result you'd like, combining those and learning how and understanding how a generative AI, particularly prompt engineering, the skill that you need to do it, you're stacking those or you're stair-casing all of those, and you're going to be able to generate way better results in generative AI and other things. And more importantly, even with people, being able to guide them through a process, you're going to get the results matched there, which is better for everyone.

Hopefully that's not a too roundabout way to get there, but I think, yeah, now lifelong learning is an outdated concept in this, then it lacks focus. For some people where the skill stacking is a little more concentrated and it will help you really build that cheese. But again, it's not going to be specific in an area, but you can apply it across swath of area and it'll really help you advance your career and invent whatever you want to do to be a standout kind of person. I kind of agree or disagree with what you just said.

I kind of agree or disagree with what you just said. Lifelong learning is about the attitude, in my opinion. Lifelong learning isn't just about acquiring new knowledge. It's about figuring out how you learn best. Some people thrive in classroom settings or in-person workshops, while others prefer self-paced digital formats. The methods vary, but the goal is the same, which is to keep growing, to keep learning. When it comes to skills-decking, I see it as something deeper. You mentioned it's about purposefully merging diverse skills to solve complex challenges, and I think you're right. What's often missing isn't the means to learn.

We have more access than ever to tools, training, and knowledge. The gap lies in connecting the dots between those skills and leveraging them in meaningful ways to multiply the impact. In my view, we are living in a tool economy, tool TOOL. Everything is about the tool, whether it's check GPT today, Google yesterday, or whatever the next hot thing will be. The mindset is, if you have a problem, there's a tool for that. Need a solution? Just grab a hammer, a screwdriver.

What is the problem? Most of the time, those tools are just solving surface-level symptoms, not addressing the deeper underlying issues. It's like putting a band-aid on a cup without treating the infection. Sure, the immediate problem looks solved, but the root cause persists, and people end up repeating the same mistakes. I see this pattern a lot, especially among knowledge workers. They buy into the idea of lifelong learning, sign up for courses, pay for certifications, and stack up all these skills. But they don't actually go anywhere with them. Why? Because the key isn't just applying skills, it's in connecting them, applying them to real-life scenarios, case by

case, and solving problems with them in an integrated manner. So the missing piece is less about technical skills and more about human skills, what most people call solved skills. Problem solving, critical thinking, emotional intelligence, communication, these are the connective tissue that make skills stacking impactful. Without them, you're just collecting tools in a toolbox you don't know how to use effectively. That's where I think the future of lifelong learning needs to focus.

Not just teaching new skills, but on helping people build the connections between them and apply them in meaningful, impactful ways. It's not about the tools themselves. It's about what you build with them. I agree. Yeah. You have brought the other hand that I'm not going to say that I forgot, But what I would add to what you're saying and you've played the part in the skill stacking,

I differentiate between calling the person and calling the professional all the time. So skill stacking, those are skills back for my question. Calling the person, that's where lifelong learning for me exists and always will. And so I'm very clear on what's the differentiator. Because what you can do is if you're people like us or those listening that are like us, if you've got an all crazy horizon of areas that you're interested in and you've read about, studied, done whatever,

to build up knowledge, it can be impossible to connect all the dots and make them all skip. I love reading modern African history. I have three shelves of books in my house that are all about the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I am never going to use that, at least not now. Oh, I gotta go get that PhD in right. Or I need to go and this thing that I've been invested in for a long time and I enjoy reading about and it is a form of learning doesn't need to be something that I'm going to incorporate

into my work life. And I purposely keep it separate. And that's the same thing, the minivico instrument that happened to be gathered in the bus, unfortunately, in the back of my room. Those are also skills that I'm learning throughout my life just for my own enjoyment. And I'm totally with you on the law of the instrument, right? If everything, if you've got a hammer and you're good at it, then it will look like a meal.

I sit on a number of groups where we support startups and tech founders and entrepreneurs and the drive to just leap to the solution. Because I think I can sell a widget to somebody rather than understanding to your point, like, is this actually a problem or is this a set over something else? It just strikes me. And so we're just going to end up with, with now the toolkit is going to have 7,000 tools, 6,800 of which I don't know how to use and 50 that are actually useful for me to figure out any kind of a dilemma that I'm

approaching. I think, yeah, I think you've done a good job of reminding me that maybe the lifelong learning thing should be just for life and the skill tracking should be where we focus on potentially getting the right kind of multi-skilled person who to your point doesn't just look down and build a tool, but is able to interact with others, is able to be empathetic, show emotional intelligence, all those kind of things that I think maybe sometimes get sharp to the side over the, let's build the technical experience and skill ourselves up with. Now I know not just C++, but I also know all of these other

JavaScript and other kinds of software so I can build my own AI mark. Let's go. Right? Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chan, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.