Chief Change Officer - #410 Sande Golgart: Climbing the Wrong Mountain — Part Two

Episode Date: June 12, 2025

After decades of chasing external wins, Sande Golgart decided to stop running. In Part Two, he shares the uncomfortable, intentional work of stepping back—what it took to unplug from achievement addiction and start redesigning a life that fits from the inside out.This isn’t a story about reinvention through ambition. It’s a blueprint for growth through subtraction: less noise, more clarity; fewer roles, deeper connection; no hustle, just truth. From mending his marriage to redefining success, Sande opens up about what he calls “Life Peels”—and why letting go is the new way up.Key Highlights of Our Interview:Listening Over Learning“I wasn’t trying to fix anything. I just got quiet and listened.”**Sande explains how stepping back from self-optimization gave him the clarity he had missed for years.The Life Peels Method“David was always in the marble. Michelangelo just removed what wasn’t him.”**He introduces his philosophy of growth by subtraction—peeling away the excess to uncover what truly fits.When Growth Isn’t More“I’ve had enough of strategy decks and hero stories. I want to feel ease in my own skin.”**Why he redefined ambition not as stacking wins but as feeling aligned, grounded, and whole.Relearning Partnership“When the noise died down, we both realized we’d never had stillness before.”**How the transition to an empty nest revealed unspoken gaps in his marriage—and led to new connection.Letting Life Lead“I used to control everything. Now I just pay attention—and things unfold better than I planned.”**What happened when he stopped pushing for outcomes and started trusting the process._____________________Connect with us:Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Sande Golgart --Chief Change Officer--Change Ambitiously. Outgrow Yourself.Open a World of Expansive Human Intelligencefor Transformation Gurus, Black Sheep,Unsung Visionaries & Bold Hearts.EdTech Leadership Awards 2025 Finalist.18 Million+ All-Time Downloads.80+ Countries Reached Daily.Global Top 1.5% Podcast.Top 10 US Business.Top 1 US Careers.>>>170,000+ are outgrowing. Act Today.<<<

Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Oshul is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today's guest is Sandy Gogard, former slam dunk champion, long-time corporate leader, which stands for Simple Easy Girls. In this two-part series, Sandy opens up about chasing titles, burning out, getting lost,

and realizing he has climbed the wrong mountain. We talk about ego, clarity, and the live pills method, a way of becoming more of yourself by stripping things away, not adding more on. It's personal, it's short, it's philosophical, but it's also practical. This episode might just change how you measure success. Let's get into it. Yeah, I think this is a great segue into your consulting work. You have this method called SEG, Simple Easy Growth.

I believe growth is the ultimate outcome of change. That's the goal. But let's be honest, change is scary. It feels risky. And it's often anything but easy. Yet you say growth can actually be simple and easy. Why is that? And how?

For people listening or watching, maybe they're stuck right now. How can they grow in the simplest, easiest way? The whole premise of what I do, and this came from a couple of different failures, where people would say, I want to grow. I don't really know that much about what we want to do. I just want to grow. And they couldn't even answer why.

It was just, they felt this pressure because other people were growing. I should be keeping up. I should be growing too. And I could see and observe that just introduced a furnace of stress and anxiety to them, their company, their employees, their customers, and it creates this really horrible kind of toxic culture that everybody's living in. If you think of it differently and you think, what is it that let's get really clear about what we really want.

Not what we think we should want, but get really clear. Let's take some real time to sit in inaction and actually think about what do we want because you don't have to grow your company by 10X to be successful. A lot of small business owners could, and even large business owners. Freedom could be getting to the place where you're doing the same amount of revenue and working three days a week. And having all this free time to go experience this amazing playground we're on. It could be helping families or it could be more mission oriented or it could be all of those things rolled into one.

But what I found is most leaders are not taking the time to get clear about what they really want. So then they cannot even begin to create alignment around that. And then they're not inspired. So they're just chasing what they think they want and they're introducing this furnace that we've all been in and it's just stress, anxiety. I've seen it unfold in companies like Amazon where leadership is so pressure packed and then one of your guests brought it up and mentioned, where people contemplate or even attempt to take their own lives because it's toxic,

because they're chasing what they think they should be chasing, not what they're inspired to bring to life. So with Segway, I spend a lot more time asking questions. Why is that important? What about that speaks to you? Till we get to the root of what's really inside that person and allow them to really think and feel, man, this is what I want my company to be. This is what I want us as a team collectively to go and do and bring to life and create. And then now you have an inspired leader that's really clear about what he or

she wants to accomplish, who can now create alignment with a team. Because Abraham Maslow, we all know the hierarchy of need. Within an organization, I think the number is like 82% of all your employees want to do an amazing job. They're showing up. They want to do great work, but the numbers show that because leadership is not clear, they're not inspiring and they're not aligning the team around them. Get 80% that really excel.

You're lucky to get one out of four that are excelling. So that would tell you right away, leadership's the problem, not the people. So, because they already want to do well, you're just getting in the way. You're creating interference as a leader. Right? So if you just didn't demotivate your people, they would produce better. But we are demotivating most employees because we're, we're ourselves not clear. We're just introducing these frantic things.

We're telling people to work harder. Life sucks. Get over it. Just get up early. Impress me with how hard you're working. All the things we've talked about for the last little bit here, leaders are breathing that into their organization. So I help people step back, unwind from that, realize how silly that is, and just

get really clear to the point you are inspired about what it is you want. You're super clear. Now we can create alignment around that. about what it is you want. You're super clear. Now we can create alignment around that. Now you have a massive amount of energy behind your purpose and you can start taking inspired action, which is now easy to get up in the morning. It's easy to walk into the office with some pep in your step.

It's easy to appreciate with amazing gratitude, all the people who are willing to show up and help this dream become a reality. Now you're working in a team environment for a team goal, and you're so incredibly grateful for your customers. You've just created this kind of magical environment, this magical culture, but it happened because the leader became clear about what he or she wants. What they really want, not what they think they want. And then around that, we create the alignment that helps the rest of it come true.

And that's when it was easy. Like it, the hard part is getting people to back up and appreciate the power of the inaction at the start, trusting it's going to get very hectic very quickly. our the inaction at the start. Trusting it's going to get very hectic very quickly. So let's take a little bit of time to relax, get really clear, become inspired, and then we'll move forward with excitement, not today's new initiative, which someone's heard 30 times in their career.

We're going to do it better this year. We're going to really hammer down. And that's why you have so many people quiet quitting, mental health issues are on the rise. Leaders just, they, it's not, they don't want to, leaders themselves also want to do an amazing job. They're doing the best they can. They're just getting caught up in all the other stuff. So I helped them pull all this stuff apart, get really centered

so that amazing things can happen. You mentioned clarity and how it's so important, especially for leaders and CEOs, but you also brought up interference, which is the enemy of clarity. Now speaking of that, you have another venture called Live Peels. You told me it has grown so fast, you actually had to slow it down a bit. Tell us more about what Live Peels is all about and how it connects with SEG. How do you blend those two approaches together? Absolutely. And the thing about those titles that makes it very difficult is with those people are wrapped up in the identity of being a CEO.

So now they have more pressure from the outside for what they think they should be doing because they have a certain title that creates even more havoc. I would almost be a huge fan that we just do away with all titles and just let natural hierarchy take its course, but that's probably for a way different time. So Life Peels is something I'm incredibly passionate about. And it comes from what I just described, which is the idea that most of the time we're in our own way. So the biggest amount, the biggest space between me and where I ultimately want to be in life is me.

It's the things I'm doing with the way I think, the way I feel, which causes me to do the things, the actions, which create patterns. And those patterns create exactly what I see the result. So if I'm unwilling, what that tells me then is the interference between where I'm at and where I want to be is really the sum of all my patterns. So I have to change and rewire how I think, how I feel, how I act. So I have new patterns that create a totally different out. So Life Peels comes from the story of the statue of David. So in Florence, it's widely regarded as the

most beautiful statue in the world. But what I didn't realize is that was originally commissioned by several artists before Michelangelo. It was this chunk of marble that they brought in from the mountains in Northern Italy. And it sat in Florence for over 40 years. They kept bringing artists in to look at it and all the artists said, it's not good. I can't work with this. It's old. It's not the right quality.

I can't work with it. So for 40 years, it sat out in the elements. Michelangelo came along at 21 or 22, his early 20s. And he said, I'd like to take a shot at it. And they said, be our guest. No one else has been able to do anything with it. So he slowly started working with it. And a couple of years later, he unveiled it.

And what now many describe as the most beautiful statue ever created. A lady came up to him and said, that's the most amazing thing I've ever seen. How did you create it? And his response famously was, I didn't create it. It was in there the whole time. I just had to strip away the layers to let it come out. And so I believe inside of all of us, that's a huge metaphor. We all have maybe a shell, usually for 40 years, where people have

told us you're not good enough. We can't do anything with you. And then it's up to us to recognize inside at our core is this beautiful, amazing being that we have to let come out. Our core is this beautiful, amazing being that we have to let come out. And that starts by stripping away layers of life that we've accumulated. And the more we strip away, the more a beautiful, amazing human will emerge, which is our true selves, where we can go and accomplish great things. So Life Peels is all about helping people identify where they're at, where

they want to go and helping them rewire and do it in a way that's completely cost effective because everyone needs this, not just the rich. So I want to make it where everybody can tap into this, regardless of who you are, where you're from, whatever your background is, you can tap into your own true self and become your own best coach with the help of a tool like Lifefields on your phone. And we're trying to distinguish a way to help you measure it because Vince, as we all know, we live in a world that's after fast results. So we often create these grand illusions of how much change we could create in one

year, which we always overestimate. We think that we're capable of way more change in a short period of time, but we significantly underestimate the power of what we could do over three years if we just committed to doing small things. So most people get somewhere less than a year in, they realize they didn't, they're falling short, so they quit. So we want to build in a measuring tool that helps you see how your light trajectory is changing so that, oh, I'm making small incremental changes, but

I'm compounding those results 1% every day, which maybe over a year isn't a big deal, but over three years you're gonna become unrecognizable and become more than what you could have ever imagined. The key is sticking to it and that's what we have to help people understand is the power of those small changes, positive changes, how they accumulate over time, how they create better karma and change your patterns. And as you change your patterns, you significantly change your expected results and that's how you rewire yourself to create, manifest,

whatever it is you want in your life. Then it brings you back to the really important question, which is once someone understands exact that they have the power to create exactly what they want is rethinking the question. Are you really sure that's what you want? Yes. And you start to go back to a more primitive discussion of, God, I don't know why I'm chasing money. Why is money so important?

My health is the most important thing to me. 30 years was so willing to sacrifice my health for money. It's very strange. If you look at just Steve Jobs, how much money would he have paid his life another 30 years? Yeah. And that's where you realize becoming aware, removing the interference, you pay attention to things like that.

You go, I don't want to be Steve Jobs anymore. I thought I did, but I don't. I want to be a really healthy, clear thinking, high vibrational person that helps everyone enjoy their time on earth. That's what I want. First and foremost, if money comes, great. You mentioned the earth being like Disneyland. I love that idea. I love that image. I actually started thinking when was the last time I went to Disneyland, I think it was Tokyo.

And I must say, Tokyo Disney is honestly better than the ones in the US. Every time I'm there, I feel pure joy. Trying out the food, walking around, being silly, checking out souvenirs. For that one day, it really does feel like a playground. But of course, once you leave, reality hits again. There's life, work, stress. But the way you put it, what if the whole world is Disneyland? That mindset alone already opens things up.

Even before finding clarity, if we see life as a playground, it changes everything. We are more open, more alive. You also talk about live peels. Is that a prod? An app? We'd love to hear more about what it actually looks like or how it works. It's an app that will help you identify key moments in your day, where you are

inspired, where you're super present, as well as times in the day when you weren't very present and it help you create more awareness with the things that you love to do because they're not always so apparent, things that take you off of being aware that you can start to get more in tune. Then you, then I'll have some planning tools that help you identify where you want to go, where you think you want to go. It'll write, help you identify what the interference is and start to just slowly work at peeling back the layers so you can let your best self emerge and you'll

have your own dashboard so you can see your best self emerge and you'll have your own dashboard. So you can see over time, three months ago, here's where I was. And now I'm vibrating at a much higher level. I'm enjoying life and then, and I can see where my trajectory, I'm on a crash course with making my life Disneyland all the time. Right? Yes. Because what's so amazing, and this just happens as you're going through the process, you really do reach a point.

Like when I started, for example, I thought maybe all this was just a mind trick, you're just learning to tell yourself different things. How great could it really be? I can tell you right now, every morning I wake up, I'm like, giddy with the idea that there is oxygen waiting to be breathed in. It's amazing. And I think how often have I ever thought about and appreciated that miracle,

that when I wake up, there's oxygen just hanging around my lips, waiting to be breathed in, which gives me more life and then how much more I appreciate every breath, which takes me down this whole other rabbit hole of life experience, which is not to waste a single breath. If you look in nature, animals that breathe slower live longer. So a tortoise lived far longer than a hummingbird. So the faster we're going, the harder we're trying, the more stressed out we're becoming, the more we're shortening our own life.

Just learn to take it easy. Get clear, build clarity. It doesn't have to happen all in one day. And then you'll slowly watch your whole life through a 180 and then just spiral up into this amazing like thing of energy where you have all this stuff working for you, nothing working against you. And you'll just see all these amazing miracles happen for you. All we have to do is strip away the things that are interfering

and allow it to happen. We're not in charge as much as we think. Like just let, you know, it's like a light and the energy just happens. We don't force it down the wire so that it illuminates the room. It just happens. But as humans, we've thought that we're here for a certain purpose, like I was sent here to be the best insurance salesman of my company. No, you weren't.

Nobody was sent here to be an insurance salesman. No one was sent here. We've made all these other things up. You were sent here to be in tune with nature. It realized that we're all the same. We're all from the same source of energy. We're all one, but we're all have the ability to help each other and just be. And then in that be productive, be positive, be somebody who lives in

abundance where you're helping everybody. Be productive, be positive, be somebody who lives in abundance, where you're helping everybody, not in scarcity, where you think you have to get your fair share, someone else is going to take it and allow an amazing life to just happen. And that's where that real stretch, but in between the years comes where you say, yeah, but how, when I have a mortgage, how? When I have a car payment, when I know that I want nice things. And that's what I'm looking forward to understanding even better and being able to bring back to people as a guide to help people see as I went through it.

What's it like? Can you really do this? And what things do you really need to be aware of? Because right now it just sounds too simple. It sounds so simple that people won't do it because you get so afraid, so fearful of what might happen to you, that you jump off that bell curve really early. And you're like, I got to go make it happen. There's no way the universe is going to allow great things to happen for me. I have to go do it.

So, you know, that's again, what I dedicated and devoted myself to is finding out that path. I can tell you this. I think I'm right in the middle of that process. 2025 has already brought a lot of changes for me and things are still moving. It's all unfolding as I go. The fact that you're doing it means you're in it.

Like you are being, just keep being and you go, you just allow more and more great things to happen. I, I, I have a hundred percent agree with you and I can't wait to hear. Cause you're clearly tuning into, to how much is waiting for you. So far, we've talked a lot about your career, leadership, everything on the corporate side, but one key part of life is our personal journey. You are now running two ventures. You have two sons who are grown, and you are starting to focus more on yourself.

For many people, that kind of life transition can be tough. Some call this the empty nest phase. I actually interviewed an other guest, a mother, who shared her own story of navigating that chapter. Now, I'd love to hear yours. Your father, your kids have grown up and moved on, and it's just you and your wife at home. How have you embraced this new stage of life?

And how have you blended that shift with the same mindset as you've applied to your work and leadership? Yeah. So I think for me, my 25 years of raising kids was all about my kids. I made it about them. I wanted to be the CEO, the senior vice president, making good money for them. That's what I felt was my purpose. When they got out of the house, they went on to great colleges.

They had great experiences. They're debt free, got good jobs. At that point in time, what, this is when I think it's so critical that your awareness is there because I realized now is a great time to think about yourself. You on this playground have only a certain number of days left. So how can you make the most of them? And I start by doing quick, easy, it wasn't easy at the beginning, daily meditation to just start quieting my mind.

And by quieting your mind in the beginning, it's really about paying attention to the thoughts that you have in your head. So I started paying attention to the thoughts in my head. I couldn't believe like how negative they were, how much I felt like the world was holding me back. How I was now becoming older and starting to create doubts about what could you do post 50? What would anyone pay you to do?

Starting to pay attention to these things. And I started to realize too, I wasn't really doing all the things I'd love to do. And then as I started working through those things over a couple of years, I started to recognize there was some underlying tension that I had never really paid attention to, my wife had never really paid attention to. really paid attention to. My wife had never really paid attention to. But we, because we were cleaning our energy and not looking at shaming or figuring out who it was, we started to have discussions about, are you

really living your best life? And started to explore some conversations and subjects that would have been very uncomfortable before. And we started to realize that we weren't. We were, we were suppressing what our real feelings were for life, for each other, for ourselves, to fit a construct of a successful marriage. Which by our own definition was if you stay married, it's successful. If you don't, it's unsuccessful.

Of course you have to sacrifice and figure out how to make it successful. So we just gave each other permission. We just said, what if we just said, divorce is an option. It doesn't mean it's a failure, but let's just not live our life as our purpose is to not make something happen. What if you, my wife, who's an amazing person, like very fit, healthy, gorgeous, model, kind, like it's everything you think that you would want. I just said, what if you lived exactly the way you want to live? Just the things that you want to do, the things you feel like you're here to do,

I'll do the same. And we'll just see, does that bring us closer together? Or help us recognize maybe we can support each other better by being apart. And through that, by giving ourselves that permission to be ourselves, let our truest self emerge, we both came to the conclusion with the help also of an energy healer who was helping us understand what was going on, that we were better off and we were going to be more able to support each other, which is really, when you think about it, it's like the ultimate

definition of unconditional love is loving someone unconditionally. If it's better for you to go on your own and explore the world, then I'm here for you. I'm here for that. and explore the world, then I'm here for you. I'm here for that. I can support you in that effort. And I too owe it to myself to support myself and love myself enough to let my best version emerge. And just because that we're concluding doesn't mean that we're going to stay together.

That doesn't mean it's a failure. That means in my mind now, it's an even greater success. Cause I'm not requiring you to stick around, bury some things that you would really prefer come out in the rest of your life because of me. I don't want to be that burden. I want to support you. I want to be your biggest cheerleader. And if I can do that to me as the best form of unconditional love.

Same with for myself, dare to love yourself enough that you actually pay attention to these things. And then you go and track your next opportunities and really experience your life. So one of the things that we found out, because this can be very confusing to your listeners, our energies are pointed in very different directions. So my wife is an empath. She takes on people's energy and her energy in life is wanting to simplify

and get things very peaceful. My energy is very big. I wanna go on and figure this thing out. I wanna share it with people. I wanna tour the world. I wanna do big things. Those energies are very hard to coexist. And what I realized is she takes on the burden

of my big energy, which is suffocating to her. So the more I'm trying to be who I want to be, the more I feel like her energy is trying to pull me back and say, Hey, quiet down, which feels like, Oh, you're not supporting me and then I'm trying to say, why don't you amp it up? Let's get going. And then you realize that's where that underlying tension is coming from. And when you realize it and understand it energetically, not in your mind has a hard

time making sense of it because you're trying to think, how do I keep this together? My job as a father, as a husband, is to make this work. When I was able to step back from it and look at it energetically, I could see, my job is to cut her free. She wants to be pulled in this. She wants this beautiful kind of serene life that I'm not going to be able to give to her unless I sacrifice everything I want just to help make that happen.

And then I know that I would end up with regret pointed towards her. If I allowed that to happen. So that's when it became really obvious that we could support each other, be there for each other, go on and live separate lives from here forward, not regret any of the time we've spent together, in fact, appreciate it even more, and then support each other in allowing each other to go where life is taking us. Wow, that was part philosophical, part rational, but also deeply sentimental. You walked me through that thought process so smoothly in just 5 to 8 minutes.

But I can tell that what you and your wife have gone through runs much deeper. All the conversations, the reflection, there's so much care behind it. What really struck me is how it's not just about love for each other, but also self-love. There's emotion, affection, and clarity all working together is thoughtful, is grounded. And honestly, if we were to put it in a corporate setting, I call that true walk the walk, talk the talk leadership. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

I think all of it boils down to, again, being able to listen to yourself. What's going on and allow yourself to feel. And I think for most men, you asked the question of going into empty nesting. For men and women, let's allow yourself to feel. What am I feeling? Is it fear? Is it like joy? Is it fear? Is it like joy? Is it anxiety?

And then I can start to distance myself by saying, I'm not the thought. I'm the person having the thought. And when you realize the separation and the distance between the two, then you realize you don't have to be the anxiety that you're feeling. You're just a person feeling and thinking with anxiety, and then you can start dealing with it. Then it allows you to be in touch and in tune and then get it more in touch. And then you start giving yourself permission to love yourself.

And I think we're as a society, we have it all backward. We want to help everybody else. Right. We feel like, Oh, my purpose is to help everyone. Our purpose is to help ourselves. If we all helped ourselves, we would all get along amazingly, but it's, Oh, I'll help you cause you have so many problems. Help yourself get rid of all of your own issues.

Be the best version of yourself and we would all get along amazingly. And that's where I feel like we owe it to ourselves to selfishly let ourselves live our best lives with compassion, with love, joy, gratitude, but mainly towards ourselves. Give ourselves some grace. Understand that if I just do, if I show up every day, an amazing life is going to unfold. I don't have to compete. I don't have to worry about maybe Vince is getting there faster than I am. Man, he's already one year into his podcast.

I got to hurry and catch up. Maybe I'm not meant to have a podcast. Maybe I just have to listen to where I'm inspired and then I'll do my amazing thing. You do your amazing thing. We can high five in the middle and support each other. And that's like that abundance mindset coming to life. And I think that's where I see the world. I have amazing hope for the world.

But we have to get there one individual at a time. We could all get there quickly, but we have to do it ourselves, not put the onus on everyone else. There's so much we've unpacked today. If we go full circle back to some of the early points you raised, such as career climbing, marriage, what society calls success, it all comes down to conditioning. We are all conditioned, no matter where we are from. You said you were raised Catholic. I wasn't. But still, I was taught girls aren't good at math. And I believed it. That's why I gave up my dream of becoming a medical doctor. Science needs mathematics. And I thought I couldn't do it.

So I chose the arts and the humanities, economics, accounting, but later in business school, I majored in finance, and I realized I'm very good at math. So yes, conditioning runs deep. We are taught that staying married equals success. But we don't know what goes behind closed doors. Sometimes, that perfect marriage is just a facade, and that applies to so many parts of life. What you're saying about unlearning really hit me.

We have to unlearn the old rules. We connect with ourselves. That might sound selfish, but it's not. When we truly care for ourselves, we show up better for others. And that's how we make the world just a bit closer to Disneyland. Yeah. And the thing is one of the common threads of everything you're talking about, whether it's marriage, whether it's work work is deep, is truly detaching from the outcome that we think needs to take place for this to be successful.

But when I define a certain outcome and I become so rigid about that outcome, I'll stop being my true self. If you think of a marriage, if I think the outcome has to be that we stay together. Well, I might avoid bringing up a tough conversation. I might avoid telling someone how I really feel. I might start to not pay attention to how I really feel and just shuffle along. And before you know it, two people are together for 30, 40, 50 years, and they just hold the newspaper up, don't talk to each other, but they're together.

And so when we're attached to certain outcomes, it really dictates what we're willing to do and not unwilling to do. And I think it's just detaching from the outcome and saying, let's listen to our life energy. Let's find out what makes us passionate. Let's experiment a little and do it with responsibility. Do it in a responsible way. Be nice to people, but you start to realize like how grateful

you are to have what you have. I'm not missing all of these things. I actually have an amazing life. I have enough. You start realizing like of these things. I actually have an amazing life. I have enough. You start realizing like all these things that have been tricking you into thinking you don't have enough. You've got to chase. You've got to do if you're not busy, you're not successful. You're not worthy.

All that starts to unpack and you go, man, life is a pretty amazing thing. I wonder how many people I could help. I know that I'm not gonna be available to them the way I could be if I don't help myself first. Let me start with me. I'll be the best version of myself. Then I'll make myself available to everybody else. If we all did that, it'd be an unbelievable place.

If any part of this episode as people are watching speaks to them and they want to go deeper, like just write it down and they can always reach out to me at sandygolgard.com because that's your energy telling you, Hey, there's something here for me to explore. So like I think back, I could go deeper on every one of these topics from how I got into energy to so many things. And so if anyone's curious or they want to know more, and there's a specific

part that speaks to them, I'm a huge believer that your intuition telling you. There's something there for you. Reach in, explore that further. Don't be attached to the outcome to see where it goes, but they can reach out, find me, or if enough people reach back out to you and we want to do this all over again and go deeper on some subjects, I'm here for that as well. And that's the end for our two-part series. Sandy's story reminds us that growth isn't about more, it's about less. Less pressure, less noise, less pretending. tending. The real work is peeling back what's not you until what's left finally is.

Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.