Chief Change Officer - From Immigrant to Innovator: Vince Jeong’s EdTech Revolution and the Power of Live Group Learning

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi, everyone. Welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chan, your ambitious human host. Our show is a modernist humility for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today, got a double Vince episode. Yes, Vince Chan here, hosting Vince John from New York City. Like me, Vince is from Asia and moved to Canada and the States for living, studying, and working.

Starting point is 00:00:59 I resonate with a lot of his transitional experiences, and we share one major thing in common. We are both obsessed with learning. We are passionate about the outcome of learning, the experience of it, and how to improve it, not just for ourselves, but for others as well. I used to invest in education technology. Now Vince is building a new agtech solution.

Starting point is 00:01:33 This episode is about transforming the learning experience and outcomes for everyone, both as individuals and as a community. If you care about elevating your career, work, and skills, stick with us. You won't regret it. Welcome, Vince. Thanks, Vince, for having me. It feels a little bit strange to be saying thank you, Vin. Awesome to be on.

Starting point is 00:02:06 This is a very special episode i've never had a guest with the same first name as mine and you are the first groundbreaking really so vince let's start with your story share your history and career path with us then we'll talk more about different aspects and elements of your experience. Let's begin by getting to know more about you. Got it. Thank you. Yeah, so today I'm an entrepreneur, but maybe I'll start from my origin. I was born in South Korea and I grew up there until I was 12. Then I immigrated to Canada and then I came to the U.S. for college and then navigated to different parts of the world and came to where I am today.

Starting point is 00:02:56 I would say there are a few things that have really marked my life. The first thing is definitely the immigrant experience has been a really big component. Moving from South Korea to Canada when I didn't really speak much English at age 12, I think really forced me to really discover myself again at age 12 and really invest in learning and education as a way to adapt to a new environment. The second thing that has really marked my experience is just post-education, going through a lot of different professional experience across consulting, international development in different countries, and just really learning what is it that I really care about, about the world,

Starting point is 00:03:44 which for me, sort of the thread was people development, capability building, and talent development. And so present day, I'm working on a startup that is an education technology company that helps people, so professionals, learn together in group. SparkWise, that's your baby. But before we dive into SparkWise and all the exciting new initiatives, let's talk about your journey. You mentioned moving from Asia to Canada and United States, which is somewhat similar to my own experience. I moved from Hong Kong to Canada and studied in the United States. While you studied engineering at Princeton, then you transitioned into public administration at Harvard, focusing on economic development, and eventually moved to different parts of the world.

Starting point is 00:04:47 What drove you to make those transitions? How did these experiences enrich your character? Or perhaps it was the other way around. Wasn't your character that drove all those moves? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I would say the thing that comes to my mind is, so first of all, I've for a long time been on a quest to find what is it that really motivates me intrinsically. And today I feel like I've found it, especially with the work I do in Sparkwise, but that journey was very long.

Starting point is 00:05:25 And I think part of the reason why it was a long journey is that growing up, I would characterize my young self as a people pleaser. Getting a lot of validation and enjoyment from things that others tell about me. And which means for a long time, I was very much driven by extrinsic things, whether it be compliments, like awards or prestige or things like that. And I always felt like that wasn't the sort of the thing that really fulfilled me. And I was constantly looking for what is it that thing that motivates me. So my winding sort of career path reflects that journey. Now, I would say there are maybe two things that guided my process. One of which actually comes from my background in engineering.

Starting point is 00:06:26 So I studied in operations research. And one of the things I learned in that discipline is that when you are trying to optimize a mathematical function under a lot of uncertainty, what you do is you actually double down on the areas of the function that you just have no data points on. So you actually gauge whether those parts of the functions are high value or not for you. So I applied that principle to my career, which means I, when I first started undergrad, I went to McKinsey and that was honestly just me not knowing what I wanted to do at all. And McKinsey just sounded like a cool organization that everyone said was prestigious and good to work for. So I just went into it blind.

Starting point is 00:07:13 But beyond that point, I was chasing things that I just hadn't experienced, where things were uncertain. So I can learn more about that and letting my intuition guide me. For instance, right after McKinsey, I went to Tanzania and worked at an NGO. I had an inkling that I cared about social impact. I had an inkling that maybe nonprofit could be a really interesting kind of organization to work for. I obviously had no experience working in Africa. I had no experience really working as a project manager in an NGO. And it felt like an opportunity that was very far away from what I knew. And by going there, I would discover. After that, I went to a year in Tanzania. I realized I really like high-impact work, but they didn't really like the NGO model and the incentives around what that environment creates. And so I actually ended up going to Colombia in Latin America and working at a startup. My first time in Latin America and my first time in a startup, but it was a way for me to really discover, again, a very different environment where I can experience that setting

Starting point is 00:08:30 and see what I like. So those are a couple examples of how I chase uncertainty as a way to really discover what is it that really motivates me. There's the second sort of thing that I use, like mental model I use, is the idea that you can only really discover and learn your true preferences by gaining firsthand experience. I think a lot of times people spend a lot of time theorizing what might be good

Starting point is 00:09:03 and then apply after theory. I think the other way around, I feel like you're better off leading with experience and then distilling and creating mental models around yourself and defining your principles. From actually putting yourself in situations where you feel the real constraints of realities and then you realize, okay, this is what I really care about versus this. I don't really care about this. And for me, that's the reason why I was jumping into these very different environments. And from that, learn what is it that I really care about. And as I mentioned earlier briefly through all these experiences I learned the thing that I always thought about and found enjoyment in was doing things around people development, talent development, thinking about how do you unlock people's potential and so on and once I got enough

Starting point is 00:10:00 those data points across settings I knew or felt that was the area I had to focus on if I were to dedicate a decade of my life building a venture. And hence, today I'm building an education psychology business. So as I was listening, it seems like you have a scientist's mindset. You are intrigued by things you don't fully understand, but you are drawn to them. Your way of finding out more is to dive deep, collect data points, and explore. start with a hypothesis, but as you gather more data, you either debunk or validate your initial theories, continuously refining your understanding until you reach a point where you discover your true passion. Would you say that's a fair summary of your experience? Yeah, I would say I would agree with like 80-90% of what you share. The only thing I would say is

Starting point is 00:11:16 I think oftentimes when you think about the scientific mindset, the one caveat is people then often spend a lot of time creating the underlying theory on which your hypothesis is formed. And then you go into the idea of validating in a very scientific way. Whereas I think for me, especially when it comes to careers, one, I think it's hard to be that scientific. And two, I think if you overthink about what is this theory underlying my preferences, I'm not sure if it's that helpful. So I agree with most of it, except I would say I'm a scientist that theorizes less when it comes to careers, I would say.

Starting point is 00:11:59 A few episodes ago, I talked to one of my guests who was actually my former professor at Chicago Booth. We themed her series Love and Logic. She studied computer science as an undergrad, but went on to earn her master's and Ph.D. in theater history, a unique blend of art and science. Later, she taught entrepreneurship at the business school Chicago Booth,

Starting point is 00:12:35 which made for a fascinating life experience. We discussed the balance between love and logic. As you shared your journey with me, I see a similar blend of art and science in your approach. I always believed that career development is a form of craftsmanship. Some people overanalyze and calculate every step, while others are more free-spirited and go with the flow. But ultimately, it's about finding that balance between art and science, feeling our way and figuring things out as we go.

Starting point is 00:13:25 Yeah, that resonates with me. You mentioned ag tech, education technology as your focus. When I first got involved in the ag tech space, and I still am, I was particularly active on the investment side. Every time I met an entrepreneur from any part of the world, my first question was always, why are you founding an ag tech company? The reason I ask is that when it comes to education technology, passion is crucial. Of course, you need to be smart and have the business acumen, the head, but the heart has to be there too. I found that in education technology, that fire inside your heart is essential.

Starting point is 00:14:26 Especially in those days, venture valuations for other types of tech, like Bintac or blockchain, were much higher, while agtech was relatively lower. That's why I really care about the why behind the work. What kind of impact do you want to make? And do you truly mean it when you say impact? So back to you, my question isn't just about why at Tech, but also out of all the issues and opportunities in the learning space. Why did you decide to focus specifically on live group learning? A couple of things. So in terms of why group learning, which I guess for people's context, SparkWise is a platform that

Starting point is 00:15:27 really scales live group learning where professionals come together, they'll be real-time video solving problems, they are practicing judgment, they are giving each other feedback, and they're really growing together and building skills together. And there are two things that I would say that really underpin this approach. One is, I mentioned, I started my career at McKinsey, and then I spent my time in a lot of different organizations across like all sectors, partly through work through McKinsey, and then work through the international development stuff I did everywhere. And one thing I really appreciate about McKinsey and consulting was that they invest a lot of resources into developing their people because people are truly their core asset. And it's a place where people fight to get onto training programs.

Starting point is 00:16:26 And that's the first thing I experienced. So I just thought that was actually what training looked like in corporate. I thought, so they put you into teams, so you work together. It's super interactive, and it's really engaging, and I thought that's what training was until I saw how different training felt like in other organizations that just don't have the resources to invest at that level and at the scale that McKinsey was. And so, and then a lot of McKinsey training that I really loved was in this live group format. So part of the motivation is that's in my mind what really

Starting point is 00:16:59 great looked like. And I wanted to build a way to really scale that approach. And then coincidentally, their pedagogy is quite similar to Harvard Business School does case studies. And there's a lot of similar adult learning principle underpinnings. And also, I think it's quite research path in the way that how people learn. The second thing I would say that made me want to start this is I felt like there was a really strong founder market fit when it comes to like my unique abilities or what I thought are my unique abilities that could build this product. So throughout my life, I've just been involved in a lot of things that involve live groups. So when I was in Korea, I used to be on TV and I hosted a lot of these live TV shows. So I was often a show host where

Starting point is 00:17:58 I had to facilitate conversations. Then I, throughout my life in school would often play some sort of a role in class whether it be class president or social chair so I was often again facilitating a lot of experiences for people in work I've facilitated a ton of really interactive workshops for clients where I also got insight into what it means to bring people together. And finally, I emcee weddings a lot. And so like a lot of the things that I do and I really enjoy are around bringing people together and somehow creating this dynamic that gets everyone to really engage. And I felt like I had really strong intuition and insight around this. So when I bring those two things together, it felt like there was an opportunity for me to create a new product that could really change what the default of online learning looks like with what I'm really good at. Yeah, speaking of online learning,

Starting point is 00:19:11 I've been pretty involved in upskilling myself in recent months, taking courses on platforms like Coursera. While Coursera offers on-demand online learning, there's little interaction and is not very engaging, unless the topic really grabs my interest. On the other hand, I'm also taking some coaching classes, which involve synchronized group learning with breakout sessions. That's a different experience altogether. And over the years, I've also had a lot of in-person experiences at business schools where I engaged in group dynamics and case studies,

Starting point is 00:20:07 debating in large classrooms, or discussing cases in small teams. So when you mentioned designing your product to be similar to McKinsey or the Harvard Business School case method. It really resonates with me. So my question for you is, for regular learners, for everyday people who don't have the privilege of attending Harvard Business School or any other elite institution, how does your solution stand out?

Starting point is 00:20:49 How does it differentiate itself from other learning scenarios I've mentioned, particularly in terms of the learning experience and outcomes? Yeah, so I think, so the way I think about it is, so maybe the context here is adult learning principles and science are pretty clear and there's a lot of evidence around how adults learn right i think actually the issue for most and it's not like different people like learning styles is not a thing right it's like a myth that's already been debunked. People really learn well skills where you require judgment and discussion and sort of practice. People really learn better when they're with others. Now, the challenge is that the kinds of high-impact learning where you're working with others is very expensive to scale, and it's very hard to do it flexibly also. high-budget institutions of the world are able to offer learners the truly great learning experiences grounded in adult learning pedagogy. And then when they're forced to scale,

Starting point is 00:22:14 they're making compromises in the learning experience that is not grounded in learning science, but at least it can get that content in front of the people who need it. But today, in the past, there was no real way to scale truly science-backed, great learning to more people. So I would say what we're doing is we're taking that experience that today can only be accessed by really privileged sort of settings and making it much more accessible to many more people through technology. So it's about scaling life group learning. I also noticed another key component you mentioned, fostering a sense of community. You've had experience as a TV host, a MC,

Starting point is 00:23:12 and engaging with people in various social environments. And now you're trying to bring that sense of community into the learning process through technology. Personally, in the social media era, I found that the sense of humility often feels superficial. Reflecting on my own learning experience, like spending two years in business school with classmates, there was a genuine sense of humility,

Starting point is 00:23:47 but it came at the cost of time and being physically present in one location. Fast forward to today, you're using technology to scale live group learning and engage learners. I'm curious about your approach to using technology to foster and develop a more genuine sense of community. How do you achieve that? I think this could be a game changer for many people, especially since, despite the technology bringing us together,

Starting point is 00:24:27 social media has often made us feel more disconnected. Yeah, and it's something that I think you're totally right, that its sense of community has really been eroded and or the word community has been diluted

Starting point is 00:24:43 in the social media world, I would say, okay, so if you step back, what are the things that actually build true sense of community? In our view, I think it requires meaningful conversations that allow people to really get to know each other in a deeper way than they otherwise would. Go beyond the small talk or the classics that are things you share in a normal context and allow them to get deeper and learn about like how do different people think? What are their values? Like what, where do their perspectives come from and so on? And I would say what the way we've designed our learning gets at sparking conversations to get at that level. So now comes the question of how do you create that kind of an environment?

Starting point is 00:25:38 You can't simply throw people into a group and say, now talk deep, right? People don't do that. And so the way we've tried to do it in our modules is that there are, I think there are a number of different levers we pull, but maybe I'll highlight two. The first one is in a lot of our modules, we first of all, get people to solve problems together that are realistic, but f fictitious and that are not actually their own life problems. And by getting people to engage on this external problem, first of all, it just gets people to start deeply engaging and opening up in a more comfortable way because it's not like you're suddenly having to be very vulnerable from the get-go. And people also just really like problem-solving together. I think it's one of the innate qualities of humans

Starting point is 00:26:30 that gets people to want to play social games, play board games, and do things with each other. And so we create an environment where it feels like you're collaborating together and working together. Then the second thing we do is we then layer on the kinds of interactivity that allows everybody to share in a meaningful way. So one of the examples of this interactivity in our platform is we actually get everyone to write down their thinking. So it's a group setting, but alone, solo, quietly for a few minutes. So you reflect on the questions first and you are able to organize your thoughts.

Starting point is 00:27:09 Then afterwards, you're able to share with each other how you thought about the prompt that was given. intentionally allows everybody to have more of an equal voice in sharing and also the thoughts that they share to be more richer rather than people just off-the-cuff answering questions without having had a chance to really thought about it and write it down. So far, we've talked about your solution from the learner's perspective. But what about from the provider's perspective? When I say provider, I refer to training providers, coaches, consulting firms, and book authors.

Starting point is 00:28:00 I'm trying to learn more about your firm. It seems like your solution is very versatile, working well with different types of education and learning providers. And for these providers and partners, what pain points are you solving for them? If I come to you and say, Hey, Vince, I want to build this product. I want to build this platform.

Starting point is 00:28:23 I think your technology is right for me. But I'd like to know more about the specific differentiation you offer compared to other learning solutions. What would you say? Yeah, I think usually, so I would say the clients fall in one of the two buckets, like broadly, in terms of why they find SparkWise is much stronger than if they were to cobble together other tools like Zoom, then a whiteboarding tool, and so on.

Starting point is 00:29:14 And in a very intuitive way that gets learners to just focus on the actual learning rather than be really distracted and overwhelmed by the amount of tools they have to toggle between. So the first set of partners want to use SparkWise because they want to bring an incredible learning experience to their clients that is interactive and they see SparkWise as a tool to do it. The second group of partners they like us are the ones that are looking,

Starting point is 00:29:43 they like the scalability value proposition that I told you earlier. For them, yeah, they can definitely, it's easy for a provider to host a group of let's say 10 to 15 people and do a very interactive session for them or do small group coaching. Those are all doable. But when you need to deliver learning to thousands or tens of thousands of learners across enterprises or different types of industries? Like how do you actually do that in a cost-effective way, in a flexible way that doesn't force the partners to now have an army of different facilitators on demand that can pull in, right? And so they see our solution as a way to really scale their business in a streamlined

Starting point is 00:30:28 way. The scale and interactiveness you mentioned for smaller groups is impressive. Now recently, you announced a deal with Harvard Business Publishing to allow them to use your live group learning solution for their subscribers. Before you share more about that, I've noticed a trend with AI companies as AI and large language model technologies become more integrated into our daily lives. These AI companies are teaming up with media firms because these media firms have a wealth of quality content. For example, OpenAI has partnered with The Atlantic and Perplexity has revenue-sharing agreements with media firms like Time and Fortune for AI-driven searches. Education is another ecosystem rich in content. When I heard about your collaboration with Harvard Business Publishing, I started connecting the dots.

Starting point is 00:31:47 HBP has a huge library of quality content and access to top-tier authors. It seems to me that your technology could play a key role in unlocking hidden value from this content and bringing it to life for a broader audience. Is that your vision for this collaboration? Or do you have other different expectations for it? I think you synthesize it quite well here. But the things that I would add to it are a couple of things.

Starting point is 00:32:31 So definitely agree that there's a lot of idle content out there today. And there's not all content needs this, but I think the content that people that need to be fully absorbed and digested and applied in real life, simply reading is rarely the best way for people to actually understand those concepts. So with collaborations like someone like Harvard Business Publishing, who've been a wonderful partner with us so far, we really do see an opportunity to allow their expertise to come to life and influence more lives.

Starting point is 00:33:13 The second thing I would add is that especially with AI, just raw content is truly getting commoditized. It was already in many ways commoditized, but now it's accessible in a way that it wasn't before AI, which means those with like distinctive expertise are looking for ways to further elevate how you deliver that experience above and beyond what people can get through simply asking an LLM. And so what we see is we're providing an alternative, a new way for people to engage

Starting point is 00:33:53 with information and content that is human to human, that AI can't simply come in this place, that really gets people motivated to engage. That really creates aha moments because you're talking to other people. And hopefully through that, we allow the truly great thinkers, ideas and insights to get spread much more to different parts of the world. It sounds like many of the thinkers and professors

Starting point is 00:34:24 who publish articles through Harvard Business Publishing, along with book publishers, but also with platforms like Substack for newsletters or even podcast platforms. I'm simply thinking out loud here, but for example, on platforms like Substack or in the podcasting space, many creators, including myself and yourself, could benefit from your technology. Independent book authors, podcasters, other content creators could use it to translate their content into a more interactive, community-based environment, allowing for deeper engagement and sharing of thoughts and insights and advice with their audiences. Yeah, I think there's definitely a really interesting and promising opportunity

Starting point is 00:35:34 there. Right now, we initially started by really focusing on first more of a B2B opportunity, also so that we can be focused on where we build our products and which features are built to enable which segments. But to your point, I think increasingly, especially now, there are going to be more and more of the solo creators or very small organizations that are reaching a lot more audience through the different digital channels that's been created. And we do think it could be really interesting to help plan, bring another way of engaging with their listeners and audience and fans through our platform over time.

Starting point is 00:36:15 Great. I can't wait to hear more about your developments because I truly believe that in addition to the B2B space, there's so much more the The rest of the world is hungry for solutions like yours. Thank you so much for sharing, Vince. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, Don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check out our website, and follow me on social media.

Starting point is 00:36:57 I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

Chief Change Officer - From Immigrant to Innovator: Vince Jeong’s EdTech Revolution and the Power of Live Group Learning

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