Chief Change Officer - From Parisian Glamour to Senegal Innovator, Fatou Sagna Sow: Is Career Change Just About Money?

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

Here's a billion-dollar question for you: If you were a well-qualified legal counsel leading a global team of 50 and spearheading billion-dollar financial transactions at the world's largest banking groups, would you give all that up to deeply dive into building a developing economy in Africa? Most people would say no, because humans are risk-averse by nature. But Fatou Sagna Sow isn't most people. She is a change progressive. Fatou, born and bred in Paris, has worked as a financial lawyer at Societe Generale and BNP Paribas. After a prestigious stint, she has returned to her roots in Senegal, Africa. She moved her entire family—her husband and two children—from the glamorous and established life in Paris to the humble and untested grounds in Africa. Her mother called her "crazy." The salary is a significant downgrade. What motivated her to make such a life-changing move? How did she plan for it? How did she execute it with faith, boldness, and consistency? A former technical advisor to the President at The Economic, Social, and Environmental Council for Senegal, Fatou is currently the founder and CEO of New Deal Consulting. She is proud of driving economic well-being and technological growth in Senegal by empowering local youth alongside youth from France and other parts of Europe. Episode Breakdown: 2:53 — Returning to Roots: From Parisian upbringing to embracing her African heritage in Senegal. 7:48 — Planning the Pivot: The extensive preparation behind a 360-degree transformative move to a new continent. 10:38 — Why Senegal? Three driving forces behind the decision for change. 14:19 — Political Circles: The journey of serving as a Technical Advisor to the President of Senegal and navigating the corridors of power. 18:38 — Confronting Challenges and Difficulties, but… 24:09 — Creating Magic with Project Nana: Transforming banana fiber into essential products for women. 26:48 — Global Connections: Strengthening Senegal’s ties with countries like Japan, France, Monaco, India, and Korea. Connect with Us: Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Fatou Sagna Sow Chief Change Officer: Make Change Ambitiously. A Modernist Community for Growth Progressives World's Number One Career Podcast Top 1: US, CA, MX, IE, HU, AT, CH, FI Top 10: GB, FR, SE, DE, TR, IT, ES Top 10: IN, JP, SG, AU  1.3 Million+ Streams 50+ Countries

Welcome, everyone, to our show again. This is your host, Vince Chan. Imagine this. You're in Paris, the city of lights, where you were born and raised. Picture yourself as a highly skilled in-house counsel at one of the world's largest banking groups, overseeing a team of 50 and spearheading billion-dollar financial transactions.

Life isn't just good. It's picture perfect. Now, what if I challenged you to leave it all behind? What if I invited you to move with your whole family to Senegal, a vibrant country in West Africa, once a French colony, to start afresh? Would you take the leap?

For many, the answer would be a no. But today's guest isn't just anyone. Join me as I chat with Fatou Zegna So. But today's guest isn't just anyone. Join me as I chat with Fatou Zegna So. A remarkable individual, I had the pleasure of studying together during our executive MBA classes in London and in Singapore with Chicago Booth. Chicago booth. She has since moved from the well-established legal profession to economic development, technical advisory, and youth entrepreneurship in Senegal. In her own words, she aims not just to succeed, but to create magic. What drives a person to embrace such profound change? How does a lawyer use to practicing set laws becoming a chief change officer,

making her own laws of change for careers, for communities, and for societies. Fatou is going to tell her own story. Hi, Vince. Thank you so much for having me. It's good to talk to you again. Thank you. I'm so glad you agreed to come on board. Wow, it's been how many years? Last time I saw you in Singapore, is that right?

Well, last time I saw you, Vince, actually, it was in Singapore. It was in 2013, so indeed a long, long time. At this time, I was a financial lawyer at a bank in Paris and I was also a municipality council of a small town in France finishing my six-year terms as a municipality council so long long time indeed. As a background, as you know, I'm a financial lawyer. I studied law. I always wanted to study law because law is the way you manage people to live together in a city. And I always wanted to know the rules and be able to be part of the lawmakers and policymakers.

So I studied law, of course, but I really wanted to be an economic lawyer. So I studied business law. I took a finance course as well. I also studied IT. I started to work as a financial lawyer in different law firms in France, in Paris. Very exciting, both French and US law firms. Very exciting. both French and US law firms.

Very exciting. And then I moved to bank industry. I first started working at the central industrial of Paris in the BNP Paribas Bank as a financial lawyer. And then I moved to Soussac Gênes, which is the second major bank in France. This is where I spent most of my career in Société Générale Bank in Paris. And before I leave, I decided to make the big change you mentioned earlier. I was born in Paris.

I grew up there. I studied there. I started working there. My family is still there. My twins were born in Paris. So I decided to quit this environment I've always known to and start a new adventure in Africa. And specifically in Senegal, which is my own country as well.

Yeah, so you moved from where you were born and raised back to your root, your origin in Africa. Now, before we go deep into the Africa situation, what actually moved you to take this leap of faith from legal profession in banking back to your root. There must be a lot of thought going on, a lot of debate perhaps in your mind and among your family members. What happened then? I was born in Paris, but I have two cultures.

I think this is a chance. Having two citizenship is a chance. So I only had the occasion to experience my friend's citizenship, and I did it fully. But I felt it was like calling me because I knew there was this challenging country for me. I used to go in Senegal very often, but it was for vacation. Coming here on vacation, you don't get to know the real country

as I know it now from the inside. I was very successful professionally speaking in France, working in a bank, a great position, making good money. My kids were fine. Everything was okay, but I felt like I was not challenging myself enough. And in 2000, I looked at my country, Senegal, and I heard about the coming election, presidential election.

So I decided to be part of this. I wanted to get involved with Senegal in a political way because I always loved politics. And so I started dealing with politics, being a representative of the Senegalese party, but in Paris, talking, dealing with the Senegalese who were living in Paris. So I was heading this protocol,

branch of the party there. And this was a revelation to me. I started knowing a lot of people, people from Senegal, but with very high level in politics, in public policymakers. And I started to learn more and more details about my country, about economics, about the politics when it comes to really living in Senegal. And this was a challenge for me to see whether this kind of change is something that I could help.

And to see how all the skills that I had and the professional experience I've gained in France, how all those skills will be helpful for me. It's been a long process of preparation. It's a 360-degree change, as you can see. I'm a mom, so I have to make it in the most responsible way. So it took some time. I entered the political way. I did this network for 10 years,

and I prepared all that. I followed the economics news, the politics news from Senegal, and I kept talking to my people here. When my kids were born in 2010, I came to Senegal for almost a year, so I really could have a good preparation from the inside. So since then, the year I finally relocated to Senegal, I decided to go. And nobody could understand that because I had such a great position at the bank. I was in the cabinet of the group general council. So it was a surprise for my mom. She thought I was crazy for my friends, family, and for my boss, for my managers, and so on. But I knew what I wanted to do and I did have to leave this experience. So I jumped. Everything is constantly changing and you need to adapt.

And if you don't adapt, it means you're not going to make it and you might not be successful. And still here I am in Senegal, happy with my family. I think I did well. Sounds like it was a calculated decision. It wasn't a spur-of-the-moment thing. You were prudent enough to plan ahead. Now you move in the year 2016. Now it's 2024, eight years. You've explored opportunities.

You experienced new life. Now, I was wondering what one thing, what that one thing is that motivate you if I sense that for you, born and raised in the developed economy, France, Paris, legal profession, stability, that is part of your identity. But you have the other piece of you which lies in your root, in your origin. You identify with it.

You resonate with it. You see a lot of things going on. You really want to do something about it. I think identity is your calling. Would you agree? Yeah. The reason I make those change, these big change, I mean, there are three main reasons.

First of all, yeah, I wanted to challenge myself and to see the full expression of myself. What does it mean being tattooed in Senegal? This Paris-born girl, how can she handle this identity of her in Senegal? What will she become? I was curious about that. And of course, it was a question of identity. Who am I? I'm also Senegalese and it was a question of embracing this second citizenship as well. My roots, my home country. I did not want to just experience France. I love France, of course. Most of my life I've lived, this is the French

experience. So I really want to live something different. And the third reason I made this change is because probably I wanted to give a different sense to my life. Being successful might not be the ultimate goal for people. We need to seek for happiness. You need to think that what you're doing is helping others and you need to believe that your life makes sense, matters. So working in a bank, making good money, being very successful, handling, like I did, a team of 51 people, a global team, great. But at the end of the day, what are you doing for people?

Really, just making money, transactions, billion-dollar transactions. But so what I knew I had this occasion in Senegal to start working on economic economic development projects and to see

very simple projects to see how I can have a huge impact so I felt like I had to make this move

for myself to feel like my life didn't matter. And of course, as I mentioned, I'm a mother. So I wanted my kids to experience, to fully experience the second country over there. And they can always go to France where they were born, where their grandma is and so on. And I think this will develop something for them that I could not experience myself. The world is a global thing.

Yeah. There's no barrier, actually. Understanding that the world is huge. Yeah, you are setting up a role model for your children. They see you in action. They see that, oh, my mother making a move. I mean,

honestly, a lot of things I'm sure going on in your life in Africa, and they are there with you. They see a lot of things which they most likely won't see in France. Yes, after they grow up, they can move back

to France or move to other countries to be adventurous, to do whatever they want to do to create impact for themselves as well as for other people, because that's what my mother has done for Africa, for many other countries. So now let's spend the rest of our time on Africa. Tell us about your time as a technical advisor. What did you see? What have you done? What challenges were you facing at that point?

It has been such a reward for me. Only two years after I relocated to Dakar and to be appointed technical advisor to the fourth public personality here in Senegal, the former prime minister, my friend, Dr. Aminat. I have to admit that the political decision I made to join this Senegalese politic in Touquet paid off when I came here because she's someone I met in this political party and since then we've kept good relations during all these years.

So I came here, she knows me, she knows I can work, she knows I can challenge myself very well. So she decided to appoint me in the cabinet as a technical advisor. And this Conseil économique, social, and environmental council from Senegal, where I was working, is an amazing institution here in Senegal. It's aiming at advising the government on different reforms and conduct studies, investigations, and make suggestions for reform aiming at fostering the economy, the social and the environmental development

of the country. It gave me a global view of all the entire economy of the entire society. And it was great for me being just, as you know, a French girl coming, who came to Senegal only two years before that appointment. So this was such an amazing position for me to have a clear understanding of the economics, of the social reality here, of the environmental issues, and so on on so that's what I did and I'm happy I'm very glad because the president gave me full latitude to do whatever it is I wanted to do so I could work on blue economy green economy industrialization challenge me, the next revolution in Africa is industrialization. I also studied work on projects for sports and development. The sports industry in Africa

is only 1% of the GDP, which is really low. It's an amazing potential for this simple industry. So I worked a lot on IT issues, made recommendations, wrote memos. I also was invited to many seminars, major events representing the presidents. We discovered recently that Senegal has gas and petrol, a country in the west of Africa. And globally speaking, Africa is a continent that everybody's looking at because there's so many things to do here. In every country, it's just growing and growing and we are anticipating to grow very fast in the

coming years. So this is the place to be if you want to experience new business areas and if you want to challenge yourself and see how you can start new businesses. So many opportunities.

That was amazing. Wow. It sounds like a dream come true for you. Well, but to be honest, in life, in career, when we are in the process of making changes, whatever those are, it's not an on-off switch. It's never perfect. In one of our episodes, in fact, the first episode, I interviewed our even post-campaigning, it was the darkest period in her life. She overcame it, but it's a process. Have you ever felt any moment of regret or discouragement or depression or difficulties, any sort of those? And how did you make through it? Well, making such a change, of course, you will face difficulties, honest speaking. I left a great job making good money and I started working here in an NGO.

I can't even tell you the paycheck. My fear was not to be successful, professionally speaking, and not to be able to take care of the kids at the end of the day. Are you making the best environment that you can for the kids and are you taking all the responsibility that you have?

But I'm a strong person. So, like I said, I did prepare myself, so I have a great network here. I know many ministers, very high level person here so I'm not alone and my husband was born here and he has such an amazing network here and also my husband he's working here. He's been working in the public area for years that's why I met him and took care of him also. So it was not such a challenge

to me. You can always at the end of the day be successful because I love politics, I have a reputation for that and I started being the head of the Fézidon Macron political party field. I've been heading it in 2017

and also for his re-election in 2008. So this position widened my network and it was passionate to be part of the two presidential elections in France. I always wanted to keep an eye on France and also be involved in France. In 2022, I decided to run for the election for the deputation in France. If I'd been elected, I would have represented the French people living in West Africa and in the Arabic countries.

So this is something that I will probably try again and run five years. All those experiences, political experiences, have been great and very important in the construction of the person I am now. I've started my own business, my own consulting firm named New Deal Consulting. I know that all those networks, political networks, professional networks, are crucial to what I'm doing now every day. So I'm lucky I have this network and I can work easily with that. Of course, you've built a lot of credential, reputation in the political circle, which is important, which is an asset, which is a capital. And now you are playing a consultant role.

I'm curious to know about in your country now, what are some of the issues, challenges or opportunities you try to overcome for the country as a consultant? Yeah, you know, in Senegal, we are living in a difficult period, a political period as we speak. And it's been for a while now. This is an election period in Senegal. We are re-electing at the the end of the month, our new president. This has been a long process of contestation, and the election was imminent. We were supposed to vote in the last month, on the 25th, and the election had been postponed. Many opponents had been put in jail.

Many young people arrested. Really, the situation here is not the best for the economy. So I'm making connections with the private sector, the administration, and also with the people, foreign people who want to come to Africa, to Senegal specifically, and to start business here. And specifically, I'm working with young people who are curious about Africa and want to come and have an experience, a professional, a real professional experience. And why not start being an entrepreneur here in Senegal. So all this political, whole political context is terrible for business. This is a challenge we have and we have been electing

for mayor, the parliament and now is a presidential election. So it's been for four or three years at least that we've been in this unstable environment, political environment. This is a big challenge I'm facing. You mentioned about building an entrepreneurship ecosystem for the young people in Senegal. So which projects make you most proud of? Can you share some examples? You remember you and I experienced the boot experience, Chicago boot experience, putting together people coming from different countries, from different horizons, different cultural knowledges,

and we could observe the magic. And this is what I'm trying to do. Put together people with different perspectives and making them working on different projects. One project I'm doing right now with my consulting firm, it's called No Nana. This project is about transforming banana fiber and turning it into sanitary pads for women.

It has never been done in Senegal, in Africa. Here in Africa, we have very talented young people who cannot find jobs, who are desperate. Some are even dying trying to travel for to europe so i'm trying to put young and people who love africa who are living outside of the continent and people here and young people here together mixing them i have five students coming from france they're coming from different cities in France. Four of them came last February, and they're here until July. And the young people that are here in Senegal and that are about to graduate from the US Polytechnique,

which is a major business school here in Dakar. This project, Luna Now, is a perfect fit to me because this is both culture, French and Senegalese culture. And I observe all those people, very talented people, each and every one of them are working together. Each and every one of them are bringing their skills, their experience. And I could see the magic and it's very exciting to me working on that kind of project. So I can work on either industrialization projects just like Nulana. I also have projects in green industry, in blue industry.

Aquaculture has an amazing potential here in Africa, in Senegal, and so on. I think this changed the perspective of the young people who are sometimes desperate here when they are in the continent of the future. So putting them together with people, young people that are coming from

Europe, working on projects here, it's definitely a goal for me and I'm happy. So far very successful with this Lean on Our Projects. Well, you're linking cultures, you're linking talents, you're linking skills, you're linking experiences. Part of the benefits of Africa. Part of the benefits of Africa because there's so many things to do here and so many things are not done.

Yeah, yeah. Before COVID, I was involved in the education technology space among all the countries in the world. One of those excitements actually happened in Africa. A lot of young talent, they all pray for more education, newer skills. If we think of it as we are economists, basically there's a huge workforce that yet to be tapped into. And that would be a huge productivity growth if you can make the best use of this Helen Poo in that region.

So I can't wait enough to hear more stories, more success stories from you about linking Europeans with Africans and possibly even other parts of the world to create that kind of magic. Yeah, just yesterday I've been interviewed by a woman who is an entrepreneur in Monaco in the South of France. She's really interested in Senegal. She comes often to Senegal. And we're about to build links between Monaco and Senegal as well. There are great schools over there.

People need to have great perspectives. And I'm ready to welcome them here in Senegal and start working. At the end of the day, those students are going to be part of the new business. They will have shares and they will have this experience, this entrepreneurial experience in Senegal, which is great. So first start with France and then Wendatco, right? And so there would be other countries coming on board. Yeah, I'm working, I'm talking with the economic council in the embassy from Portugal, from China.

I went there from India, talk to them from Korea and so on. And Japanese, I went, I discussed with the Japanese ambassador himself, and I'm really involved with the Japanese corporation here. And we are about to do a lot of things. They have a great program of taking young people from Africa to Japan for one, two years,

school internships, and come back and lose young people, very talented people, who get to be close to the Japanese culture are coming back in Africa. We have 20 Japanese groups in Senegal. Talk to those people and see what kind of small business those students can start around the group activities and create a link between all those people. There's so many things to do.

I started with France, naturally. But I'm open because Senegal is really a great country and we are open to work with everybody. With the entire world, of course. So I'm sure when I invite you back next time for an interview, you'll say, well, Vince, well, it's not just for us. Now I got another 10 countries for 20 years. I won't be shocked to hear that. I occupied your airtime for long. to say thank you so much for sharing and I will of course like to invite you back to hear more

of those magic magical stories you're trying to create but we'll save it for next time we'll build the momentum so that we'll have the part two well thank you so much I love it very much talking and it will remind me of where I'm coming from, what I did. And it's great to sometimes sit and think of what has been done and what's again to be done. So thank you again for this moment. Really did appreciate it. Life is about change. Challenging yourself and see how far, what's the best person you can be.

It involves change. It involves challenging yourself, going outside your comfort zone, but of course you have to prepare when you wake up in the morning and just move. This is not the point, but you need to challenge yourself and put

yourself in a situation that will obviously make you change and obviously for the better so thank you so much no problem you enjoyed what i said and what i tried to express in my with my experience changing from europe france to africa senegal has been the probably the best best choice I ever made in my life. And I'm really thankful for that. Thank you. Well, I would say to,

as a conclusion, you study law. You study all kinds of law book. You memorize all the rules and stuff. But now, you are making your own playbook, your own law book for change, for magic.

This program, this show is about making changes, making your own laws of change. You are truly a role model of creating your own law book, your own playbook. I'm really glad that I invited you in the very first place. And really appreciate your time time I would encourage you since you're reaching out to different people what you share here

I'll release it as an episode you should also share this link to your counterparts I will, I will I think they would care to know about your motivation you as a founder's story. I mean, why for two years doing this and then they listen to this. Oh, I know why you make this big commitment

moving from France, from a stable job to a position of stability, to a position of challenge or creating magic. I think they will be touched. Thank you so much. Thank you. You take care and talk to you soon. As we close the curtain on our Women Change Leaders series,

I've saved a special treat for last. Coming to us from the halls of UC Berkeley is associate professor and psychologist, Juliana Schroeder. To what extent people are using AI wisely, particularly leaders are using AI in their decision making. I think the principle to keep in mind is that AI needs to complement and improve our decision making. It shouldn't really substitute. And we've seen some pushback against this already. One example, hiring decisions. So this is one in which people very strongly believe that there should be a human decision maker that is involved at the high level, even if there's some parts of the decision making process that are driven by AI.

Google famously got into trouble by pretty much automating their entire hiring process and there was a lot and promotion process and there was a lot of rebellion among the employees and job candidates so they were using those as an input into their decision making process but they weren't the final outcomes and so that made people feel a lot better and I think that there is this hiring like I said that is a domain in which people do think there should be a human involved there are other domains where people are okay with just taking the algorithms. I think the big concern that people tend to have is when there's the potential for something to be unfair or there's the high stakes decision. And in which case, you know, a lot of times the algorithms are operating in this kind

of black box fashion and people don't understand exactly all the machine learning that's going on within the algorithms. And so there's this concern that the outcome may not be fair or may not be warranted. I've heard some really compelling arguments that people's psychology is going to hold them back from being able to reap all the benefits of the algorithm. And so by choosing not to use the algorithm there, I'm limiting our ability to make a good decision. And so those are like tricky trade-offs that we're having to navigate now. Once again, thank you for listening and staying with me till the end. I'm your host, Vince Chan. I'll see you next time.