Chief Change Officer - Paul Austin: Unlocking Personal Growth with Responsible and Safe Psychedelic Use

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

We’re joined by Paul Austin, founder and CEO of Third Wave, who champions the responsible use of psychedelics for personal and leadership development. While psychedelics remain illegal in many places and continue to be the subject of ongoing legal and medical debate, Paul is educating the world on their potential benefits and the transformative role they could play in enhancing mental clarity, creativity, and growth. As the host, I offer this forum as a space for diverse voices to share their thoughts and insights on ideas that can help humanity move in a positive direction. My goal is not to pass judgment but to present different perspectives, asking questions that allow listeners to form their own opinions from the conversation. BBC: What psychedelics legalisation and decriminalisation looks like around the world. Paul shares how microdosing, when done carefully, has the potential to benefit a wide range of people—not just those with mental health challenges. We discuss the common misunderstandings about psychedelics, key legal and medical concerns, and, most importantly, safety considerations and responsible practices to approach this evolving tool for personal growth. Listen in to explore how psychedelics, when used thoughtfully, might serve as a powerful catalyst for transformation. Key Highlights of Our Interview: The Real Risks of Psychedelics: Safety First “While psychedelics promise transformation, the biggest risk isn’t just physiological—it’s legal. These substances are still illegal in most places, so getting caught can have serious consequences. Beyond that, psychedelics can create instability if not handled with the right support and a safe environment.” Mindset Matters: Intention in Psychedelic Use “The real benefits of psychedelics start with intention. Using them to learn, grow, or heal can unlock deep insights, but if it’s just to escape reality, the impact is far less meaningful. For anyone interested, working with a professional—be it a coach, therapist, or shaman—is essential. Preparation and a safe setting are crucial for a transformative experience.” The Five Elements for a Safe and Meaningful Psychedelic Journey “There are five essential elements: assessment, preparation, facilitation, integration, and microdosing. From asking the right questions to committing fully to the experience, each step helps build a safe and transformative path. Start low, go slow, and choose to step into this journey for yourself—not for anyone else.” Microdosing as a Catalyst, Not a Crutch “Microdosing isn’t about masking problems; it’s about creating neuroplasticity for real change. With commitment—two to three times a week for 30 days—you can catalyze significant shifts in mood, decision-making, and self-awareness. But this journey, like any transformation, relies on intention and responsibility. Microdosing is a tool, but you hold the reins to lasting growth.” Connect with us: Host: Vince Chan | Guests: Paul Austin ______________________ Chief Change Officer: Make Change Ambitiously. Experiential Human Intelligence for Growth Progressives Global Top 3% Podcast on Listen Notes World's #1 Career Podcast on Apple Top 1: US, CA, MX, IE, HU, AT, CH, FI 1.8 Million+ Downloads 50+ Countries  

Hi everyone, welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. I'm sure it is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation. Today, we are diving into a topic that's sparking both excitement and debate, psychedelics. My guest is Paul Austin, founder and CEO of Third Wave, a leading voice advocating for the responsible use of psychedelics, especially within the realms of personal and leadership development. Let me make this clear. While there's growing support for the benefits Psychedelics remained illegal in many places. And there's still much debate around the safety, legality, and medical impact. But pause here to educate us on the potential advantages of psychedelics, especially when approached responsibly.

We'll discuss microdosing and its potential to benefit a wide range of people, not only those dealing with mental or medical conditions. As the host of the show, I'm not here to judge my guests. I offer a forum for diverse voices to share their ideas, thoughts, and approaches aimed at advancing humanity in a positive direction. I ask questions from different perspectives, allowing you, our listeners, to draw your own conclusions from these conversations. Here, I'll ask Paul to walk us through some of the common misunderstandings about microdosing

and share insights into the ongoing legal and medical debates surrounding psychedelics. We'll also explore some essential safety considerations and responsible practices for those curious about this tool for personal development and leadership growth. Let's get started. Paul, good afternoon. Welcome to my show. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Vince.

It's 5.30. So the evening, good evening to you. I know it's morning in Hong Kong. We're on opposite ends of the world at the moment and that's why I love technology because we can record podcasts like this while we're on totally opposite ends of the world. So it's great to be here with you.

Thank you. Yes, I'm still finishing my breakfast, but I wouldn't miss this interview for anything. Today, we are diving into a topic that is still pretty controversial, not just here in the U.S., but worldwide, is one that comes with its own set of benefits and risks. Paul has been in this base long enough to call himself an expert so I'm excited to get his insights. But first thing first, Paul, can you tell us a bit about yourselves? What have you done in the past? And how has those experiences shaped who you are and what you do today? The story starts when I'm 16 years old and I grew up in a pretty traditional Midwest

family in the United States just outside of a city called Grand Rapids. And the Christian church was very central to my upbringing. And so every Sunday we would be at church, we would go to church. I was raised in a very sheltered environment. But by the age of 15 or 16 I started to have some of those rebellious tendencies that many teenagers have. But I had a friend at the time who introduced me to cannabis, marijuana. And I experimented a little bit with cannabis at the age of 16. And soon after I experimented, my parents found out that I had been smoking cannabis. And of course, they did not like this at all because it was an illegal drug, because they had been raised

in the 70s when the war on drugs and a lot of the propaganda around drugs was very prevalent. And so they sat me down one Sunday after church and my dad looked at me and said, I haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident 30 years prior to this experience. And so that obviously was so hard and difficult to hear. And it just showed how impactful this experience was to my parents. And so after that point in time, I knew that I couldn't necessarily be super open with my parents, like so many teenagers, about what I was up to and where I was going. Now, fast forward a few years later, and that same friend who introduced me to cannabis

then introduced me to psychedelics, which is going to be the main topic that we talk about today. And those early psychedelic experiences that I had at the age of 19 and 20 were very impactful. They helped me to recognize how much shame and guilt I had been conditioned into in my religious upbringing. They helped me to recognize and realize that a lot of my negative self-talk and self-hatred was actually not my own,

that I could choose to release it and move beyond it. But most importantly, they taught me that we as humans are just making up the rules as we go along, and that life is much more malleable than we think it is. And so when I started to work with psychedelics at a young age, they really inspired me to think differently, think in an unconventional manner. And so at the age of 21, I moved to Turkey where I taught English for a year and I soon became a digital nomad where I was traveling around the world, working online, building my first business, which was a teaching English platform. I taught a test called the TOEFL test.

And at the age of 24, I was living in Budapest with a couple of friends, experimenting with some LSD once again. And we were talking about how psychedelics were becoming more talked about, less stigmatized that because of some of the movement around cannabis in the United States, a lot of clinical research that was coming out of institutions like Johns Hopkins and NYU, and also because you had podcasters like Tim Ferriss and Joe Rogan who were openly talking about psychedelics, culture was really reevaluating these

substances. And so in 2015 I started an educational platform called Third Wave that is focused on how can we help people understand both the benefits and risks of these misunderstood substances. And so for the last 10 years, almost, I've now been building that out as a platform. We've reached over 25 million people with their educational materials. And for me, I believe psychedelics are a tool

and just like a knife, they can be used in very positive ways or they can be used in very negative ways. And so a lot of my ethos and a lot of what I focus on is how can I help people use these tools with more awareness, more intention, and more responsibility. And just to bring this story full circle,

a few years ago, I was visiting my parents back home in Michigan, and my dad had come a long way since that initial conversation, and he had started to experiment with microdosing, and then I actually guided my dad through a psilocybin mushroom experience himself, and it was very profound and impactful for him. So that's how psychedelics, I think, can change minds. And if they are to be productive tools in society, they definitely need to be used in very intentional and specific ways. From your perspective, you're educating the world on the benefits

world on the benefits and potential advantages of using psychedelics responsibly, for personal well-being, and even for the benefit of teams and communities. So first, can you share how you incorporate psychedelics in your practice and what benefits you've observed? On the flip side, what are some limitations and potential risks? Help us understand more about the opportunities and the challenges. What should people be cautious about? What's really fascinating about psychedelics is they have a long lineage of use. So this is where the name third wave of psychedelics comes from. That naturally suggests there was a first wave and a second wave.

So the first wave of psychedelic use was what I call the ancient and indigenous use of psychedelics. So people like Plato and Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius and ancient Greece and ancient Rome used psychedelics. You have psychedelics talked about in the ancient Vedic scriptures and even in ancient Chinese scriptures. In South America, they have drink a chi called ayahuasca for over a thousand years. So there's a rich lineage of use of psychedelics across historical time. Now, the second wave was the 1950s and 60s, the counterculture,

when psychedelics reentered our sort of global consciousness. And the reason they ended up becoming prohibited and banned is because a lot of people were using them irresponsibly. And so the big difference between responsible and irresponsible use comes down to something that I call intention. What is the intention behind the use? Is the intention to learn, to grow, to heal, to explore? Or is the intention just to disassociate?

Is it to forget about our problems? Is it to get just high and intoxicated for no specific reason. And so I think a lot of the benefits come from that intentional use. And if someone is interested or curious about psychedelics, what I always tell them is make sure you do this with a professional. It could be a coach, it could be a therapist, it could be a medical doctor. It could be even a shaman or an indigenous healer. So make sure that you have a human who is supporting you through this experience.

Make sure you prepare beforehand. So it's really important to prepare your mindset to maybe do some meditation, to do some breath work, to do some yoga, start to practice some contemplative practices to help you drop in to a little bit of a deeper state. And then when you're having your experience, the setting matters a lot. You have to make sure that the setting you're in is very safe, it's very comfortable, it feels like home to you. And so these are the most important aspects. SET, which stands for mindset, and setting must be honored and paid attention to if someone wants to experience some of the benefits from psychedelics. Now, the benefits could be

broken up into, I would say, two main areas. One is clinical research shows that these are very effective at treating clinical conditions, things like depression, addiction, PTSD, anxiety, that there's a lot of clinical research about how efficacious psychedelics can be for clinical indications. But I know your audience is much more interested in creativity and leadership and making changes. And so the second main group that often benefits from this are those in leadership positions, those who are creatives, those who are decision makers. And the reason for that is because psychedelics support something called neuroplasticity or neurogenesis.

So neuroplasticity is the capacity for the brain to adapt and change. Meditation is very similar. If you meditate every day for a period of let's say 30 to 60 days, you're going to notice that you're a little bit more calm, a little bit more present. You can learn a little bit faster. And they've even shown this with brain scans, that cortical plasticity develops, the gray matter of the brain develops when we consistently meditate. Psychedelics have a very similar impact.

They help us to think new thoughts. They help us to make new choices. And so a lot of the benefits that leaders and creatives and changemakers experience from working with psychedelics often come down to, I feel more creative. I feel like my mood and my energy is better. And most importantly, I feel like I can make courageous and difficult decisions. And that's something that I think is so key for anyone in a leadership position, because leadership often requires courage and bravery.

You have to be willing to have difficult conversations, to make difficult decisions every single day. And people notice that when they start to work with psychedelics as a practice, it really helps them to have more courage in facing some of these difficult aspects of existence, of business, of communication, of relationships. Now, for the risks, I would say that the riskiest thing about psychedelics is that these are still largely illegal everywhere, right? They are a schedule one substance in the United States. In many other countries, they are highly illegal. So that's actually the biggest risk when it comes to

psychedelics is you may end up getting arrested for their use. When it comes to the actual physiological risks of psychedelics, the biggest risk is what I would call introducing instability. That part of the beautiful aspect about psychedelics is they shake things up. They shake the snow globe up. But if someone doesn't have proper support before, during, and after an experience, that instability can lead to poor decisions. So some of the horror stories that maybe we've heard about psychedelics, like people jumping out of windows or jumping out of cars or having psychotic breakdown. These are almost always because the set and setting is not safe.

The professional facilitation is not provided. So almost all of the risks can be mitigated by ensuring that this is done with a trained and qualified professional. The other main risk to speak about is anyone who has a predisposition to psychosis or schizophrenia or maybe a personality disorder should not be working with psychedelics. They are contraindicated for people who have certain personality disorders. And so that's also a really important thing to keep in mind if someone is curious and interested about weeding psychedelics into their lives. Paul, you mentioned there are at least two types of people who can benefit from psychedelics.

Those dealing with medical or mental health challenges, like PTSD, and then another group, creative leaders, entrepreneurs, and others whose roles demand a high level of focused mental power. Can you dive a bit deeper into these applications, especially for regular people in high-performance roles. Perhaps you could share a few stories or examples, no names needed, of course, to help us understand how psychedelics can work in this context. I'd love to hear more about how your approach compares and what it offers for those looking to enhance focus and creativity. Yeah, so I look at psychedelics as a skill. So we already mentioned the tool metaphor before, but psychedelics are a skill that

we can develop and cultivate. So just like we can learn to read, we can learn to write, we can learn to play an instrument, we can learn to cook, we can learn jiu-jitsu or martial arts, we can learn to skillfully work with psychedelics to enhance creativity, to become better communicators, to become more courageous decision-makers. And when I look at the skill of psychedelics, typically when I work with clients, I'm first asking them, why are you interested in this? And more times than not, the response is,

I just feel a little stuck. Or it could be, I got a 360 done and it's clear from my team and my colleagues that I'm not communicating as effectively as I need to communicate, or I'm not as inspired as I used to be. So a lot of people come into this from a leadership position or from a creative perspective who just, they feel like they're a little stuck.

They might be a little burnt out. They just can't really get the juices flowing again. And so what working with psychedelics does is reopens a lot of these channels because when we're taking a psychedelic, what's happening in the brain is it's helping to support neurogenesis. And that means the activation of neuronal connections that have died down. And so it's like fertilizer for the brain. So it's reactivating all of these channels in the brain that help someone just get

re-inspired and re-energized and start to make some really impactful decisions. And so typically when I work with clients, there's a couple ways that I might work with them. One, it could be strictly microdosing. And I think that's also something to talk about here, that psychedelics can be used in one of two ways. They can be used in a microdosing protocol, which is when you take a very low dose of a psychedelic, about a tenth of a regular dose, and you do it two or three times per

week for 30 or 60 days. And oftentimes when people do that, they notice, oh, I have a better mood, I have more energy, I'm getting better sleep, I'm eating a little healthier. It's adding up and having these cumulative impacts, but microdoses are sub-intoxicating. There's no trip, there's no journey, there's no visions. There's none of these things that we may associate

with higher doses of psychedelics. Higher doses of psychedelics are much more significant. They're much more catalytic. They require a lot more preparation and integration. And so if someone comes to me and says, I've never really worked with psychedelics before. I've heard they can help with thinking clear. I heard they can help with energy and mood. I usually say, let's start with microdosing, right?

Let's take about a tenthth of a regular dose. Let's do it two or three times per week for a month or two. And that way you can, you can get a lay of the length. You can get a sense for the territory. You can dip your toe in before you jump in the deep end. And then after someone starts to microdose, they're then like, Oh, okay. This isn't as intimidating as I thought it might be. This isn't as difficult or challenging as I thought it might be. This isn't as difficult or challenging

as I thought it might be. And then some of these people become interested in working with higher doses of psychedelics. And most commonly what happens in these early experiences with higher doses of psychedelics is there's a lot of self-reflection about someone's past, about their relationship with their mom and their dad and their siblings and their family of origin. There might even be some. We all go through trauma, whether that's big T trauma or little T trauma. So even myself, I've never been clinically diagnosed.

I've never been in any sort of psychiatric medication. But like most normal humans, I've been a little depressed from time to time. I've struggled with anxiety from time to time. And that's because there were certain things that happened to me when I was young that I didn't adjust well to. And so when we take these higher doses of psychedelics, we often have these deep reflections around, oh, okay, this is why I am the way that I am. And oftentimes in that space, there becomes then a choice. Do you want to continue to be this way? Or do you want to shift

and change? And so I think the most valuable part about psychedelics is they make it much easier to release dysfunctional behaviors and patterns, whether that's how we relate to our spouse, whether that's how we treat ourselves, our diet, our exercise, our sleep patterns, whether that might be how we communicate within our business. So there's a lot of capacity then for psychedelics to facilitate change. And I think when I talk about psychedelics as a skill, that's the most important thing to focus on is those of us who are in leadership positions,

who are creatives, who are change makers. We live in a world that is becoming increasingly uncertain every day. And we have to adapt to new circumstances all the time. And so most commonly, when I'm working with leaders, I'm helping them adapt, learn, grow, develop with an understanding that psychedelics make it easier. They don't do the work for you, right? Psychedelics are not a magic pill, but they are a catalyst to new patterns, new thoughts, and new behaviors. I know you've written a book on microdosing. I know you've written a book on microdosing. If I understand correctly, please clarify if needed, over a course of, say, 30 or 45 days, I take a very small dose, about one-tenth of a standard dose, which offers certain benefits, as you describe.

But would you say it works more like a band-aid? For example, during those 30 or 45 days, I might feel better. But after stopping, could those effects wear off? It's similar to taking painkiller. I may not feel the pain for a while, but the underlying issue might still be there. So is microdosing more of a short-term fix? And if so, how can we make its benefits more sustainable? Ideally, without any physiological or psychological risks? Yeah, that's a great question.

So I would say SSRIs like Prozac, Zoloft are much more, they tend to numb a lot more than when someone starts taking an antidepressant. A lot of the emotions or difficult emotions get pushed beneath the surface. Whereas with microdosing, what often can happen is some people immediately feel better. They notice as they start microdosing, they have a better mood, they have more energy, they're getting better sleep. But for some people, microdosing, it acts as like an irritant in a way. So there's a catharsis.

So someone is anxious, they're going to be more aware of their anxiety. And at times that can be uncomfortable. And so that's why I advise someone if you're looking to microdose or work with psychedelics, work with a coach or therapist who can help you to navigate that. Because when you're starting to work with these substances, even at microdoses, there may be material, emotional material that starts to come to the surface that you've repressed for a very long time. And so what I typically advise is you have to commit to doing this two or three times

a week for at least a month. So just like with meditation, you don't just sit on the cushion once, meditate for 20 minutes, and expect to be enlightened. Right? When you start with meditation, you commit to at least 30 days straight of meditation before you make any assumptions about, is this helpful, is this not helpful. Microdosing is similar. I tell people, commit to it for at least 30 days, two or three times per week.

Work with a coach or therapist who can help you to navigate that and, coming back to intention, have an intention for that experience. Because microdosing is not a magic pill. It catalyzes neuroplasticity. It makes it easier to change. But part of the value in that process is to actually start to change things. And so that way, microdosing doesn't just become a crutch. Like you talked about words.

Okay, if I'm going to feel better in the long term, I have to keep taking this again and again. This is the case with SSRIs or ADHD medication or sometimes benzodiazepines, anti-anxiety medications. If you just stop taking those randomly, you're going to have serious withdrawals and potentially a lot of these mental health issues that come back to the surface. Microdosing doesn't do that. Microdosing actually allows you to structurally change things in your life so you can actually be more content and happy with the existence you're living.

That might mean quitting a job that's making you miserable. That might mean breaking up with a spouse or partner that is toxic. That might mean cutting out junk food that's keeping you really unhealthy, right? There are choices and decisions that we all can make that will help us to become healthier, better versions of ourselves. Microdosing just facilitates that process. And what's beautiful about microdosing is, even if you just stop, let's say you've microdosed

two or three times a week for a month, if you just stop, there's no physical withdrawals. Some people do notice, as you talked about, that some of the challenges and issues may start to come back up. And so typically what I advise folks is, take at least two weeks off, feel into it, get a sense of what else is coming back off.

And then if you feel like, okay, microdosing was helpful, I want to continue with my protocol, doing it two or three times per week. I totally give the thumbs up because as Vince, change is not always immediate in life. Sometimes a healing process or a transformational process may take three months, six months, a year. I think what is most important if someone is microdosing is that they are committed to the path and process of growth, learning, and development, and they recognize that microdosing is just a tool to help them get there, but ultimately at the end of the day, it is their responsibility to make the changes in their lives that are going to help them feel better, have better relationships,

have a better mood, have more energy, all these sorts of things. Would it be fair to say that microdosing serves as a key? It unlocks potential solutions that might help us get unstuck when we feel trapped, like being locked in a room. From what I understand, microdosing could help us first get out of that mental room, and while it might not immediately review the path forward, it offers a clearer base to start making those decisions. Whether that means ending a toxic relationship, finding a new job, or even rethinking career direction. Essentially, it seems like a powerful tool for gaining clarity and reclaiming a

sense of control to move forward in a way that makes sense to us. Would you say that's a fair summary? Yeah, that's a really good summary. I would say another good metaphor is to think of it as like when we go snowboarding or skiing. When we go up on a mountain and a bunch of people have gone down before us,

we're just following the same paths, the same ruts that everyone else has gone down. And typically when people feel stuck, when life is not working out well for them as they had hoped, when there's something irritating or frustrating, they're just following the same patterns and the same ruts. When we start to microdose or work with psychedelics, it's like a fresh layer of powder is dumped on the mountain. And now when you go to the top, you can actually start to chart new paths down the mountains. You don't have to follow the same ruts and the same paths that everyone

else has been following as they've been skiing and snowboarding. So it allows more choice in the decisions that we make because we are taken out of our default patterns. And that's one of the interesting aspects about what's going on neurologically when we work with psychedelics is they interrupt something called the default mode network. And the default mode network is the network in our brain that's all of our habits, all of our patterns, like our default way of operating in the world. And when that becomes too rigid, when it becomes too constricted, that has a direct relationship

to feeling depressed, to feeling unenergized, to feeling, man, life is just not going in the direction that I'd hoped it to go. When we work with psychedelics, it introduces a key to unlock that default low network. And that allows us to establish new patterns and new behaviors that are different from what we had done before. As you've explained, there's potential for micro-dosing to benefit a wide range of people,

not just those with mental or medical conditions. But then, it's still illegal in many places, and there's ongoing legal and medical debate around it. Could you walk us through some of the common misunderstandings people still have about microdosing? And maybe share more about the legal and medical size of the conversation? What are the main concerns? And where do you see the biggest barriers to a bordered acceptance? One thing to note is these, as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, and as you just said, these are largely illegal. There are, however, certain jurisdictions where

it is now legal. One of my old projects, I started a psilocybin mushroom retreat center in the Netherlands because in the Netherlands, these truffles are legal. We had people come from Hong Kong, all over Europe, all over the United States and Canada, from Australia to legally work with psilocybin in the Netherlands. Jamaica, Costa Rica, Mexico have legal psychedelics. And then interestingly enough, two states in the US have legalized mushrooms. Oregon and Colorado now both have legal access to psychedelics. However, in the vast majority of other cases, these are illegal.

What's interesting is these did not become illegal for scientific purposes or medical purposes. They became illegal for political purposes. And I mentioned this when I talked about the second wave of psychedelics, that a lot of the people who were taking LSD in the 1960s were also anti-war protesters, anti-Vietnam War protesters. And the Nixon administration at that time knew that they could not throw protesters in jail because of the First Amendment.

But if they made the drugs that these people were doing illegal, they could interrupt the protests, they could throw people in jail because of the First Amendment. But if they made the drugs that these people were doing illegal, they could interrupt the protests, they could throw people in jail, and so that's why they ended up making LSD illegal in the first place. And so unfortunately, a lot of the stigma that still exists around psychedelics is when people hear about psychedelics, they think, oh, these are just drugs, right? So just like heroin or cocaine or crystal meth or opiates generally. These must be highly addictive.

These must be highly harmful. These must be highly dangerous. When you actually look at the scientific research, psychedelics are anti-addictive. They actually help people to heal from addictions. In addition, they are the safest drug that we have available. They're safer than alcohol, which is another very commonly used drug. They're safer than tobacco, which is also a very commonly used drug. They're safer than much, much safer than things like heroin and cocaine. And that's largely because the way they interact

with the brain is much different than most of the drugs that we think of. When we think of nicotine, when we think of cocaine, when we think of opiates or methamphetamines, these are all largely active on dopamine. And because of that, there is an addictive nature to them. Psychedelics are active on serotonin. And so serotonin has a much different interaction in the brain compared to dopamine. I would say one of the other common misunderstandings about psychedelics is that if we take them, we'll go crazy. Right? And as I mentioned before, there are certain people, I would say about 1% of the population, who have a family history of psychosis or schizophrenia or

personality disorder, and these people should not be taking psychedelics. But I would say they're safe for probably 95 to 99 percent of people to take as long as it's done with guidance, as long as preparation is paid attention to, as long as there is integration support. And that's why I always tell people if they're interested in working with psychedelics, to start low and go slow with my mantra.

Start low, go slow, you can always take more, you cannot take less. So that's why I love microdosing, because a lot of people who are new to this go, I don't really know where to start. I'm a little intimidated just to jump in the deep end and do a high dose of psychedelics, because I don't know if I'm gonna have a bad trip.

I don't know if something crazy is gonna happen. And so typically what I advise is start with a microdose and just see how that feels. And then you could slowly work your way up from there if you want. Now, when it comes to legality, neither of us are supporting anything illegal in this podcast. And so typically what I advise people is if you're interested in this,

then go to Colorado, go to Oregon, go to the Netherlands, go to Costa Rica or Mexico. There are so many places where this is legal, where you can do it. And because I know most of your audience is American, there's a lot of policy that is rapidly changing in the United States. In this next election, which is happening in just a few weeks, the state of Massachusetts is looking to legalize psychedelics. Soon after that, the state of Washington is looking at legalizing psychedelics. There have been several cities like Oakland, Seattle, Detroit, Washington, D.C. that have a decriminalized possession of psychedelics, meaning you can have them yourself.

You can't sell them, you can't distribute them, but you can have them underperson, you can use them as you wish, and there's no criminal penalties for that either. So the legal landscape is rapidly changing. And so if someone is, I'm interested in this, and I have a family, I have kids, I don't want to be irresponsible, I don't want to necessarily break the law. Usually my invitation is go to Third Wave, because we have a ton of educational resources. And we also have a directory on Third Wave where we have retreat centers, clinics, therapists, coaches that you can work with and get in touch with a professional.

And start to explore, you know, if you're interested in this, how might you want to go about this, how might it be beneficial and supportive for you. So you've mentioned a couple of great starting points. Start low and go slow is essential, especially for beginners who might feel uncertain given the controversies, legal risks, and and potential side effects. And for those convinced by the potential benefits but cautious about legality, going to states or countries where psychedelics are legal is another way to explore responsibly. To wrap up our conversation, Paul, could you share more on some essential safety considerations

and responsible practices we should keep in mind? What steps can help us approach this new tool for personal development and leadership growth with care and respect. Yeah, so typically what I talk about are the five key elements. And so the five key elements are assessment, preparation, facilitation, integration, and microdosing. So if someone just remembers one thing from today, I would say start low and go slow, would probably be the number one thing. But number two would be the five key elements

that you really wanna work with a professional who provides a proper assessment, who provides an intake form, who asks you questions about who you are, about your history of trauma, about whether or not you have any experience with psychedelics or other contemplative practices. So that first thing should always be an assessment.

We have to understand, are these substances right for me? That's number one. Number two is preparation. That before you step into an experience with psychedelics, you wanna prepare yourself. So you wanna learn, you wanna become educated. This podcast is a great starting point. I also host my own podcast,

and we've done like 270 podcasts at this point in time. So we have tons of free education on Third Wave that folks can check out. They can also check out my book, Mastering Microdosing for Education. So you want to learn, you want to educate yourself, and then you want to start to prepare for the experience by journaling, by spending some time in reflection, maybe going for walks or spending some time in meditation and just reflecting on, okay, what do I want to explore in this experience? What is holding me back right now in my life?

Where are my frustrations or where are the things that I'm just not that happy with at this point in time? And so that preparation phase really helps you to get a good mindset going into the experience. And once you go into the experience, and we've talked about this a lot, so I won't rehash it, but find a great facilitator to be present with you. A coach, a guide, a therapist, a shaman, for some people even a really good friend who can just be there to help you go to

the bathroom, who can help you navigate the space. And then after that experience, make sure you have integration support. Because when people work with psychedelics, there's a lot that gets shaken up. And so there can sometimes be some confusion about what do I do next? As you talked about before, it's like you have the key to open the door, but once you open the door, which path do you take? And so really working with someone who can help you to navigate the integration process, who can help you to take a lot of the insights and learnings from that experience and start to put it into action so you can shift behaviors and change the structure of your existence, that's also really beneficial. And then the fifth element is microdosing.

But on an ongoing basis, microdosing could be really supportive of someone's path. It can help with integration. It can help them to continue to stay in a good mood and have good energy. And so microdosing is that fifth key element. So as long as those five elements, let's say someone is listening to this

and they end up working with a coach or a guide or a therapist, you should ask that coach or guide or therapist, how do you assess clients? How do you prepare clients? How do you facilitate experiences? What do you do for integration? Do you know anything about microdosing? Those are going to be the main things to pay attention to

to ensure the experience is safe and effective. The final thing that I'll say is, the most important thing is that you have to really want to do this. And I emphasize that because sometimes people will go do an experience because my friend really wanted me to, or my husband or spouse or wife really wanted me to, or my child or children

really wanted me to. But at the end of the day, it has to be a willful choice. There has to be a commitment and a devotion to exploring these substances because they are not for the light or for the faint of heart. And so that commitment, that choice, is the most important aspect. That you have to realize that this may be challenging

at times and may be profound and insightful at times. It may be a wild, adventurous ride at times. And as long as you remain committed and understanding of, I made this choice, I made this decision, I had the support that I need, I feel safe in what I'm doing, then 90% of the time people experience really tremendous benefits from working with psychedelics. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews, check

out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.