Chief Change Officer - Russian Polyglot Diplomat to Energy Innovator in Cincinnati, Irina Filippova: I’m Not Wedded to a Specific Structure of Career

Episode Date: March 21, 2024

Would you dare to found an unproven venture during the COVID-19 pandemic? Yes, Irina Filippova bravely took that risk. Born into a family deeply rooted in science in Russia, Irina showed a keen interest in diplomacy. This led her to study international relations and secure a promising early career position at the International Peace Institute. To further enhance her business skillset and mindset, she attended Yale MBA program. Irina's true calling lay in the energy sector, prompting her move to BP in London. During her tenure there, she was involved in brand marketing, innovation, sustainability initiatives, and mergers and acquisitions. She also took on several prestigious roles: Senior Strategy Advisor at Kuwait Petroleum Corp., Executive Director at 2DegreesC in the UK, and Director of Investments at Venetos Management in Switzerland. Currently based in Cincinnati, Irina’s drive for innovation has led her to the roles of COO and co-founder at Electrada LLC, funded by BlackRock Real Assets. Electrada collaborates with fleet operators to design and build 100% tailored EV charging solutions. Episode Breakdown: 3:28 — Nuclear Scientist’s Daughter to Woman Diplomat 8:20 — The Self-Starter’s Edge: How curiosity fuels Irina’s career decisions. 12:40 — Career Flexibility: “I’m not wedded to a specific structure of career.” 14:54 — Strategic Career Opportunities: Bridging gaps and connecting dots. 18:55 — Defining Change Leadership at organizational levels. 22:10 — Passion About Energy Transition: Exploring the motivations behind her focus on energy solutions, the challenges she tackles, and her target beneficiaries. 27:55 — Challenging Assumptions: If clients relying on Irina’s solutions for fleet energy needs, what about the risks of counterparty and concentration? 32:45 — The Thrill of Entrepreneurship: “What excites me is also what scares me.” 36:55 — Career advice for MBAs: “Don’t feel entitled.” Connect with Us: Host: Vince Chan | Guest: Irina Filippova Chief Change Officer: Make Change Ambitiously. A Modernist Community for Growth Progressives World's Number One Career Podcast Top 1: US, CA, MX, IE, HU, AT, CH, FI Top 10: GB, FR, SE, DE, TR, IT, ES Top 10: IN, JP, SG, AU  1.3 Million+ Streams 50+ Countries

Hi everyone, thanks for joining me again in this new episode. I'm your host, Vince Chen. This episode tells the story of a self-starter who never settles, who is constantly in search of change, who combines curiosity and courage with a profound sense of integrity, now becoming a force for change. Irina Filipov, the COO and co-founder of an energy transition company backed by BlackRock.

We met more than 20 years ago at Yale. We are MBA classmates. Right from the start, her clear and persuasive way of speaking really caught my attention. It's not just that she is a well-trained diplomat, fluent in five languages. She possesses a clarity of thought and the ability to communicate her ideas with strong conviction. You will surely sense this conviction throughout our conversation. Irina was born into a family led by a nuclear scientist in Russia, yet her interest led her elsewhere, in particular to international relations and eventually a diplomat career in the States. Her journey didn't stop there. She wanted to pursue a business career,

so she went to Yale and transitioned into the energy sector with BP in London. But the corporate world couldn't contain her ambition for law. Irina transitioned from a comfortable corporate position during the credit crisis

to spearhead new ventures, at some point becoming a change leadership consultant for CEOs and senior leaders. Then, a few years back, during COVID, she and her team were setting up a new venture. As we speak today, they are crafting a new paradigm in the energy sector. Their mission is to disrupt the transportation industry in the States with innovative energy solutions. Towards the end of our conversation, Irina will share invaluable advice for the younger generation who are passionate about creating global change for the greater good. This episode is a full-on episode,

meaning that you'll hear everything about Rena through her mouth in one episode. I'm not going to break down into two separate sessions like I did with other guests in the earlier episodes. So, if you are ready for full-on inspiration and full-on learning, stay tuned for the next 35 to 40 minutes. Here comes Irina Filipov. Thanks for having me, Vance. It's a pleasure. Here comes Irina Filippov. To choose a career, I truly wanted a career that would expose me to different cultures and the way the world works, worked as it were. So I chose a career in diplomacy, which was a very tall task for, first of all, a female. Typically, career in diplomacy would be reserved to men. But I did succeed in entering the very exclusive Moscow State Institute for International Relations. And I was studying international law when I had the opportunity to travel to the United

States and see how, if you will, human rights practices worked in reality. And this is where my big journey began, as it were. So the career evolved. I went actually on to work for a UN think tank in peace and public resolution. I did that for about five years. And while it was a very, very interesting time in world politics, being a young person living in New York City, surrounded by kind of all the mystery of international relations, I was looking for something more challenging and potentially even more substantive as I was thinking about my future. So I decided to apply to a business school and of course a business school like Yale, a school of management, stands out, certainly stood out for me because of their mission and the focus on leadership for business and society. And that helped me articulate where I saw myself heading as an adult, as a mature professional.

I truly wanted to make a difference for society, for global society, as it were. But I also was interested in the mechanic of the business in terms of solving some of the challenges that we're facing, not only the mechanism of politics that I was exposed to before. So that's how the journey started as it were. That's when we met at Yale. And when I was enrolled as an MBA student,

I did not necessarily have a very clear idea of a path. If you recall, there were tracks, a finance track, a consulting track, a marketing track, a nonprofit track. I did not see myself fully on any of the tracks because somehow that definition seemed a bit limiting. So I went down a limb. I got an airplane ticket to London during my spring break in the first year And I went and introduced myself to BP. That was then becoming a leader in not only energy, but energy writ large. With its new branding campaign, Beyond Petroleum, looking at alternative sources of energy, that vision really appealed to me and the company culture very much

appealed to me. So that's where my appealed to me so that's where my journey into energy if you will began with that summer internship I then got a full-time job offer upon graduation spent some time in Chicago moved to London worked in upstream and downstream in a conventional energy space but always with an eye out to that broader mandate to bring energy line and mobility to people in different ways, including using alternative and renewable sources. And my last project at BP before I decided to move on actually had to do with relaunching brand and doing so in a renewable fashion.

So we had this phenomenal project called Helios House in Los Angeles, where we've rebranded and revamped an old dirty gas station on the corner of Olympic and Robertson into an architectural marvel, but also it was an education station that helped us showcase renewable energy technologies, solar, the use of recycled repurposed materials, and kind of a new way of looking at what was a very typical, if you will, feature of everyone's life, right? A gas station. And obviously looking at alternative fuels at that time as well. So that's where my journey into sustainability began.

This was 2007. And I have been on that path ever since. When you look back, do you see any common themes or threats that link up all these different transitions and changes throughout your career life so far? a self-starter. So even when I was working for a major energy company, I tended to work on projects that I was originating. At no point in time did I actually take over someone else's role. So every role on every project that I worked on was essentially starting from scratch. So if you will, it was being an entrepreneur within a very established company and within a very established kind of culture and way of doing things. So that is definitely a common theme. The second common theme was simply curiosity.

My career passes completely non-linear and that was okay by me. I think. For me, when I reached kind of the age of 35 or so, the idea of following an established career path was not at all appealing. I wanted to learn about different aspects of energy. I wanted to try myself in different roles. I actually joined a early stage startup out of the UK upon leaving BP. And that involved building the US presence, really from scratch from the ground up, and really creating relevance in a new market for that particular company. So in that sense, the transition from a big established organization to being more or less independent or being entrepreneurial advice was not hard for me because I already thought like an entrepreneur, even within, again, an established company. The other component, again, is curiosity. In order to be successful in being independent or running a small business, you do have to be very curious

about industry trends. You have to be open to building partnerships, relationships, collaborations with others. You have to continuously find ways in which you can create value, not just for yourself, but for others in the ecosystem. So those components really lead, I believe, successful entrepreneurs to more success. I've also observed, I've observed a lot being in these different environments and in these different spaces. And unfortunately, we don't see a lot of great examples of leadership on either side. I believe in the U.S. culture, there is a bit of a glorification of the entrepreneur. We hear all these great stories about unicorns becoming successful overnight. And therefore, there is this mystery and mystique of what it takes to build a

successful enterprise. And I believe that unfortunately gives rise to tendencies that are not necessarily healthy and don't lead to long-term sustained success for entrepreneurs. Because again, folks think that if they kind of somehow outsmart the market and become very popular, that somehow is going to get them from point A to point B. And of course, we've seen a lot of unfortunate consequences of that kind of thinking. Let me summarize. You are a self-starter. You also have a strong sense of intellectual curiosity. These two forces are self-reinforcing. You are curious about new

trends, new changes. You're not afraid of breaking through barriers, try something new, something different to self-start, to get your curiosity fulfilled, at the same time to move ahead of the game, or I would say to set up the rules of the game yourself. Yet, I think there's one missing piece. It's courage. It takes courage for you to venture out there, for you to self-start without knowing all the unknown. So in your eyes, what is courage? What is courageous leadership, especially for a woman leader? In my mind, Vince, the word leader equals the word courage. There is no leadership without courage.

And even though I believe we don't necessarily have a lot of examples of courageous leadership, those who show courage are the true leaders. Did it take courage for me to make the transition from BP to an early stage startup? Probably, probably some courage, but I would say more curiosity on my part. Like I said before, I was not wedded to a particular structure of my career. I was not wedded to going kind of from one stage to the next in a very way. I always desired to have more freedom and more control over my own destiny as it were. So that to me was very natural. That transition was very natural, even though it happened in

the midst of the global financial crisis in 2008. So anyone thinking rationally about this would say, well, why wouldn't you just stay with a safe, secure career where you were progressing just fine in a large company versus going kind of off on your own into the unknown? But to me, that wasn't really the dilemma. I was attracted by the opportunity of meeting a challenge. My desire was to meet that challenge and to bring all my skills and experiences to bear on meeting that challenge. And if I could do that in the context of a small enterprise,

of like-minded individuals, great, fantastic. If I had to venture off on my own, then that's how it had to be. So I see courage really as a way of being rather than kind of a quality that you have to have. It's just a way in which you get from one place to the next and you do have to sometimes jump over large chasms. But in doing so, you have to have a vision of bridging areas that don't really bridge easily. The business that we are now, for example, we're in now, the business of electrifying transportation,

involves two very established industries energy and transportation going through a transformation and as both of them are changing at the same time and fundamentally we're here to really bridge everything that they're going through and create an opportunity for fleets to electrify successfully. So again, this is an opportunity and this is seeing how you can actually connect the dots in the midst of the storm, for lack of a better term, in the midst of this big major transition and transformation. I would say that most courageous leaders in my mind are those who actually stick to the promises that they make to their people, to the organization that they run,

those who continue to deliver on the promises they made to their investors and funders, people who back them, back their idea, and those who continue to deliver value to those who use their products and services, their company's products and services. That's called integrity. And sometimes integrity takes courage. It means walking away from opportunities sometimes because they don't fit with the original vision for your enterprise. This also may mean walking away from certain partners or ecosystem players who are not

showing up with integrity and standing your ground, but being flexible at the same time and seeing opportunities and bringing those opportunities to bear on shaping the mission of your existing enterprise. So I don't know if I answered fully your question around courage and leadership, but to me, again, leadership is courage and courage is leadership. One is impossible without the other. And it really just means staying in integrity with yourself, with what you say and what you do. Absolutely. You've answered the question with so much authenticity and truth in that. I like what you said about courage equals leadership.

Leadership equals courage. Although some leaders mistake, misinterpret being courageous, meaning that they can just do whatever they want without thinking ahead of potential consequences on them and people around them. So they are taking risks without being thoughtful about the consequences, the impact they create. That's actually what I call stupidity, not courageous leadership. I also like what you said about integrity. We've seen a lot of cases in business and politics in which leaders lack integrity in what they do and what they say. A world needs more leaders who are like you, who value as well as practice integrity in talk and in walk. Now, let's look at another C word, change. This podcast is called Chief Change

Officer. Change is the central theme in all of our interview. I know at some point in your career life, you've been a consultant in change leadership and management, working with a lot of senior leaders, CEOs, and teams. Tell us more about your experience there in helping others to build a mission for change and to execute on it. Sure. Well, I've ventured into this change area primarily because I wanted to see the change in leadership of large companies, leadership on the political arena in terms of achieving our decarbonization goals. enough persistence, enough integrity in getting through the transitions that we had to get to as quickly as we needed to get through them. So I told myself, something has to change.

Something in the way these leaders think and act has to change. But notice, I was thinking about those leaders out there, leaders that I was observing at a very senior level in corporate worlds, in entrepreneurial worlds. But what actually needed to happen, the change needed to happen within myself. I studied psychology at the Carl Jung Institute in Zurich. And that's where I first had the insight, not without help from a very accomplished depth psychologist to actually see the need that you're perceiving out there as being actually very internalized with yourself. And so really the journey for me was to use what I needed to bring into this world, all my skills, all my experiences, and leverage that and share that with others and really kind of use my own experience,

as it were, as a roadmap for someone else to embrace change, for someone else to have the courage to step up, to act according to their beliefs, rather than according to what common thinking may suggest they do, and really follow through as it were on the ideas that they had. So that was a period in my life where, this reflection around what's happening around me in the world on the world stage actually had to all transpire within myself otherwise I could not be effective as an advisor as a consultant to established companies as well as to entrepreneurial companies and their leaders in terms of what they needed to do to make

a difference, to make a difference to their strategy, to make a difference to their positioning, to create a better service or a better product for this world. But it all again comes back to each person's individual values and the ability to live according to those values and bring those values to bear on what it was that they're building. Staying in integrity. So much so about the change you've experienced and also what you believe in change. Now let's take a step further to talk about another kind of change that you're really passionate about, which is energy transition. As we speak, you and your team are building a new paradigm in energy transition. Tell us about the vision of you and your team, whose problem you're trying to solve, and what exactly is this problem.

Inspire us, educate us, like we're five years old. Tell us more about what you're trying to do at this moment and what's the impact you're trying to make. As I've already mentioned, the world of transportation and the world of energy are going through a tremendous transition. All the major automotive original equipment manufacturers actually voted in favor of electrification of ground transport, which means that they are very busy investing in battery research, investing in designing and manufacturing new models of electric vehicles from class one to class eight. So from passenger vehicles all the way to the semis and buses. This revolution in transportation is happening. And it's aided by the revolution that's happening in parallel around energy, the source of energy for this transportation, which is no longer your conventional oil and gas, right?

This is now a switch that's happening from conventional oil and gas to electric power. You could argue that the sources of electricity may come from conventional sources as well. That is true. However, as we've seen over the past two decades, renewable sources of electricity are continuing to grow, making it cheaper, making it reliable, and of course, making it cleaner, most importantly.

So for us, the biggest challenge right now is to help solve this energy and transportation equation in a way that does not create a burden for owners of large fleets who are actually trying to embrace this revolution in transportation, revolution in logistics. What we're trying to do is offer them the opportunity to focus, continue to focus on their core business once they made the decision to electrify and enable us to take care of the rest so that they don't have to think about where the energy for these new vehicles is coming from, how it's being delivered at work costs, how to maintain it, how to essentially have the same level of reliability and uptime for the electric fuel that these new vehicles are requiring that would match their current experience with conventional.

So essentially, we're coming up on stage to say, we are the providers of that electric fuel for this new transportation that you're embracing, that you're about to transition to. And we're going to be an end-to-end provider. So you don't have to worry about where the electrons are coming from, how they're being delivered to your vehicle, whether it's reliable and how much it costs. We took care of everything. All that you do is you pay us your electric fuel costs the same way that you currently pay your conventional fuel cost out of your operating budget. So basically, you are an all-in problem solver for me if I'm one of those transport

companies. Is that correct? That's correct. That's correct. And I'm also saving you from potentially your biggest challenge and that is doing it yourself. Procuring electric vehicle charging infrastructure the way you would be procuring appliances is the wrong way of going about it. Unfortunately, we've seen a lot of companies try to go that way, try to just order chargers thinking that chargers is easy and ubiquitous and available. That is not true. We're still in a very nascent industry. Charging infrastructure is something that requires a lot of nuance. Otherwise, you're going to run into major costs and delays in terms of deployment on that infrastructure,

which is why we're very focused, a lot of us are utility experts, as well as energy and transportation experts, because this is what we do day to day. A typical fleet is gonna be a company focused on logistics or manufacturing and logistics, right? This is what they do best, potentially delivery. We are in a business of energy. And what we're telling our customers is that we're going to provide them with a solution that's going to work well, can work reliably, it's going to work for them over a long period of time.

And this is where we come in with our value proposition so that they continue to focus on their core business of logistics. Let me be a devil's advocate for the moment. If I were the CEO of a prospective client you're trying to pitch, you come to me with the full solution. One question, major question comes up in my mind would be if I rely on you to provide me with a full solution. What if something goes wrong? Basically, I expose myself

to the counterparty risk of you that is not controlled in-house. So what would you say? What would you respond if I ask you this question? How you managed the situation, this set of risk that I may expose myself to if I sign up for your service? This is a great question. And we, of course, think a lot about what risks we're mitigating and whether there are any risks that we're creating for our customers. And yes, sometimes we do come across this type of thinking that says, well,

if I invite, if you will, an ecosystem partner, a third party into my universe, right into my facility or onto my parking lot, is there any risk? And I guess the best answer for that is you mitigate that risk by providing a very, very clear set of guidelines of how we operate and protecting the client, the customer from any downside exposure, be it on price, be it on the quality of our work, be it on that performance guarantee that we provide contractually. So this is what contracts are for. And they certainly safeguard our customers from being overly exposed.

It's also a matter of trust. It's a matter of trust because, as you know, in the nascent industry, there's lots of players that might have different types of agendas. So you do have to, we do this as well, I do this all the time with our service providers, you do have to secure references from current customers, right, from those who actually vouch that this new company, this new kid on the block in this market, in this industry, can actually do what they've said that they would do. You have to see very carefully who is funding this company and for what reason.

We happen to have a very stable, very secure infrastructure funder who believes in what we do and has been doing this for a long time. But it's not everyone. It's not every company. And sometimes strategic investors and others make different views on how to treat the company in the future. And then you have to meet the people. I have a great believer that even though we've been, obviously, through the years of COVID, we started this company, the operations of this company in the years of COVID, believe it or not. And that did not hamper our growth.

Quite the contrary, because again, the trend to electrification was already there and it was very strong. But you do have to sit with people and you do have to align on your values be it a customer be the vendor be the partner we always go through an exercise on any major deal on any major partnership because if your values don't align it's not gonna work quite honestly so we have to educate our customers about who we are not just what we do and how we do it but who we are and why we're here so our goal is to expose

them to as many of us as many of our colleagues as possible so that they can see that the level of professionalism with which we approach our challenges is very high and that we do what we said we would do rather than sign a contract and and then perform some optimal. You are the chief operating officer in this venture. Every day, you deal with all sorts of questions about the deployment of technology, the implementation of the business model, the risk management for a client and for your business. All sorts of things. As an entrepreneur, what excites you to move forward? What actually energizes you to get past the challenges to stay focused? What is your source of power?

Well, that's a great question. I'm typically asked what excites you and then on the flip side, what scares you. And sometimes it's the same thing that excites me and that scares me. And that is, of course, the potential. We're at the very, very start of the transportation industry and of the energy industry. These two are fundamental to the way in which our world works, in which our whole economy works. We're at the very, very start on this process, and this will continue to grow. But as we grow, there are fits and starts, there are peaks and valleys. And as entrepreneurs, we have to be very tenacious and very consistent. And again, stay in integrity with what we have promised the market to do. The most exciting part of this job is, of course, no two days are the same. We wake up to another news announcement, another company going through a transformation, another customer going through a transformation. There's new technology coming on the market every single day.

We could be going to shows and conferences every week of the year just to keep up with the technology advancements. So it's going to continue to be a very exciting sector. It's going to continue to be a very challenging sector. Because, of course, change is not easy. And again, that change has to happen within before it happens outside oneself. So we're talking about a lot of people changing their mindsets, changing the way in which they work, changing what they value. It does have to happen on the individual level. And it does have to happen on the leadership level. Because without that, we won't see the impact that leaders can make on their respective organizations, on their respective nations, all throughout the world,

throughout the industry. It's a global chain. And that's another exciting component of this. We're constantly in communication with other partners worldwide because, again, we are a global village now. And energy transformation, transportation transformation affects everyone. So we have to learn from those who may be ahead in one area or the other. We have to import, export this knowledge and share this knowledge.

Because again, we're trying to accomplish something for humanity as a whole without sounding too lofty. We're trying to create a new way that the transportation works in order to not only reduce the carbon emissions, but in order to create something more sustainable, something more reliable for the future. So again, this change has to happen at absolutely every level. Global change. This idea of creating global change, making impacts on others, building a better world for future generations, all of those are grand purposes. A lot of younger generations, for example, MBA students, MBA graduates, they're all fascinated by playing a major role in changing the world for good.

Now, you yourself, as you mentioned, in your early part of your career, you were not satisfied with predefined career paths. You always wanted to do something different with your curiosity, with your self-starter mindset. So now that you look back as a seasoned leader, as a time-tested entrepreneur, as a change leader yourself. If you are now in front of a hall of MBA graduates and students, what specific advice would you give to them in embarking on their career path? I advise them to choose the area that fascinates them,

that they have curiosity about, that interests them. Research it. Do as much as they can do to understand trends in a particular industry, in a particular company, on their own. People who invest themselves in understanding how the world works and what challenges there are and how they can help address those challenges always land on their feet. I interview folks for roles here at Electrata all the time. We are constantly hiring for different types of roles. Hands down, I would always prefer a candidate who is invested and who is willing to work hard with a self-starter

than a candidate who feels entitled to have a role, have a title because they have done this before at a different company. The world is becoming entrepreneurial. Even big companies are changing in that way. So I would say feed your passion, feed your interest, grab it with both hands, and you will find your way. The way in which you go about shaping and creating your career, even sometimes trying to do the impossible. And, you know, my own example can serve in this regard. There are a few very impossible twists and turns, bridges that have had to be built.

But your tenaciousness, your persistence, your interest, genuine interest in something will differentiate you from others. Do not be entitled. Just because you have an MBA and you worked hard to get it does not mean that now you have the right to go out there and feel entitled to a big salary and big title in a corner office. That is not what work is about. Work is about educating yourself every single day about what happens around you, why it happens. And if you have that attitude, you'll do well in any career. And you'll bounce back from any challenge or any setback you might experience. If you have the Catterland attitude, that is going to be a very short, it's going to be a short-lived path for you

because again it's all about continuing to grow continuing to learn and using every opportunity to bring what you know skills experiences you have the knowledge you have the insights to bear on what the world needs. Find it, create your own opportunities, call on other Yale alums or other MBA school alums that you went to, call on your ecosystem to help you with contacts, to help you with connections, but nothing, no connection, no contact will replace what you invest in yourself and in your knowledge, your tools, and your expertise. Continue to do that. Don't ever stop doing it. Irina, this is an audio-only podcast, so I don't see your face and you don't see mine. But rest assured, I keep nodding my head as you share a lot of your opinion on courageous leadership, on keeping integrity in what you do, what you say, what you deliver, and the career advice you just shared

with the younger generations. I can't agree with you more on a lot of those beliefs and opinions. I guess a large part is I myself personally, in the early part of my career, in the middle part, and in the recent past, I've experienced a lot of those

situations, issues, challenges, developed my own value system, come up with my own playbook, make my own laws of change. And we have so much in common to share and talk about. So when you have another free moment, I would love to bring you back and host you here for another mind-blowing session. Thank you so much. It's my absolute pleasure, Vince. Thank you for the opportunity. I started this podcast in Hong Kong.

The first episode was with my friend in Singapore. Then we moved to the United States, where we talked to a couple of parties in New York, in California, in Cincinnati. Now, in the next episode, let's take a trip to Senegal, West Africa. I'll be talking to a friend from Chicago booth, the two Zena So.

She is a lawyer from France, used to work for one of the biggest banking groups in France. Her origin actually is in Senegal. Several years ago, she decided to give up her lawyer job and move back to Senegal with her family. She wanted to create and bring positive changes to Senegal. So working in a bank, making good money, being very successful, handling a team of 51 people, a global team, great. But at the end of the day, what are you doing for people? Really, just making money, transition, billion-dollar transition. So what?

I had this occasion in Senegal to start working on the economic development project. And a huge impact. To feel like my life didn't matter. I'm a mother, so I wanted my kids to experience, to fully experience the second country over there. And I think this will develop something for them that I could not experience myself. So I'm trying to put young and people who love Africa, who are living outside of the continent and people here and young people here together, mixing them, putting together people coming from different countries, from different horizons, different cultural knowledges. And we could observe the magic.

Stay tuned for the next episode to see what kind of magic that Fatu is trying to create for Senegal. Once again, thank you for listening and staying with me to the end. I'm your host, Vince Chan. I'll see you next time.