Chief Change Officer - Vince Jeong’s Journey: From Immigrant Roots to Redefining EdTech Through Live Group Learning

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hi everyone, welcome to our show, Chief Change Officer. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. I'll show it is a modernist community for change progressives in organizational and human transformation from around the world. Today got a double Vince episode. Yes, Vince Chen here, hosting Vince John from New York City. Like me, Vince is from Asia and moved to Canada and the States for living, studying, and working. I resonate with a lot of his transitional experiences, and we share one major thing in common. We are both obsessed with learning.

Starting point is 00:01:10 We are passionate about the outcome of learning, the experience of it, and how to improve it, not just for ourselves, for others as well. I used to invest in education technology. Now VINCE is building a new Actech solution. This episode is about transforming the learning experience and outcomes for everyone, both as individuals and as a community. If you care about elevating your career, work, and skills, stick with us. You won't regret it. Welcome Vince!

Starting point is 00:01:55 Thanks Vince for having me. It feels a little bit strange to be saying thank you, Vin. Awesome to be on it. This is a very special episode. I've never had a guest with the same first name as mine. And you are the first. Groundbreaking, really. So, Vince, let's start with your story. Share your history and career path with us. Then we'll talk more about different aspects and elements of your

Starting point is 00:02:25 experience. Let's begin by getting to know more about you. Got it. Thank you. Yeah, so today I'm an entrepreneur, but maybe I'll start from my origin. I was born in South Korea and I grew up there until I was 12. Then I immigrated to Canada and then I came to the U.S. for college and then navigated to different parts of the world and came to where I'm today. I would say there are a few things that have really marked my life. The first thing is definitely the immigrant experience has been a really big component.

Starting point is 00:03:05 Moving from South Korea to Canada when I didn't really speak much English at age 12, I think really forced me to really discover myself again at age 12 and really invest in learning and education as a way to adapt to the new environment. The second thing that has really marked my experience is just post-education, going through a lot of different professional experience across consulting, international development in different countries,

Starting point is 00:03:36 and just really learning what is it that I really care about, about the world, which for me, the sort of the thread was people development and capability building and talent development. And so present day, I'm working on a startup that is an education technology company that helps people, so professionals learn together in, in group. Spark wise, that's your baby. Spark-wise, that's your baby. But before we dive into Spark-wise and all the exciting new initiatives, let's talk

Starting point is 00:04:11 about your journey. You mentioned moving from Asia to Canada and United States, which is somewhat similar to my own experience. I moved from Hong Kong to Canada and studied in the United States. While you studied engineering at Princeton, then you transitioned into public administration at Harvard, focusing on economic development, and eventually moved to different parts of the world. What drove you to make those transitions? How did these experiences enrich your character?

Starting point is 00:04:53 Or perhaps it was the other way around. Wasn't your character that drove all those moves? Yeah, it's an interesting question. I would say the thing that comes to my mind is, so first of all, I've for a long time been on a quest to find what is it that truly motivates me intrinsically. And today I feel like I've found that, especially with the work I do in Sparkwise, but that journey was very long. I think the part of the reason why it was a long journey is that growing up, I would have, I would characterize my young self as a people pleaser.

Starting point is 00:05:34 Getting a lot of validation and enjoyment from things that others tell about me. And which means for a long time, I was very much driven by extrinsic things, whether it be compliments, awards, or prestige, or things like that. And I always felt like that wasn't the thing that really fulfilled me, and I was constantly looking for what is it that thing that motivates me.

Starting point is 00:06:02 So my winding career path reflects that journey. Now I would say there are maybe two things that guided my process. One of which actually comes from my background in engineering, so I studied in operations research. And one of the things I learned in that discipline is that when you are trying to optimize a mathematical function under a lot of uncertainty, what you do is you actually double down

Starting point is 00:06:39 on the areas of the function that you just have no data points on. So you actually gauge whether those parts of the function that you just have no data points on. So you actually gauge whether those parts of the functions are high value or not for you. So I applied that principle to my career, which means I... When I first started undergrad, I went to McKinsey, and that was honestly just me not knowing what I wanted to do at all. And McKinsey just sounded like a cool organization that everyone said was prestigious and good to work for. So I just went into it blind.

Starting point is 00:07:11 But beyond that point, I was chasing things that I just had an experience where things were uncertain so I can learn more about them and letting my intuition guide me. For instance, right after McKinsey, I went to Tanzania and worked at an NGO. I had an inkling that I cared about social impact. I had an inkling that maybe nonprofit could be a really interesting kind of organization

Starting point is 00:07:38 to work for. I obviously had no experience working in Africa. I had no experience really working as a project manager in an NGO. And it felt like an opportunity that was very far away from what I knew. And by going there, I would discover. After that, I went to Europe and Tanzania. I realized I really liked high-impact work, but didn't really like the NGO model and the

Starting point is 00:08:09 incentives around like what that environment creates. And so I actually ended up going to Colombia in Latin America and working at a startup. My first time in Latin America and my first time in a startup, but it was a way for me to really discover again a very different environment where I can experience that setting and see what I like. So those are a couple of examples of how I chase uncertainty, um, as a way to really discover what is it that truly motivates me. There's the second sort of thing that I use, like mental model I use, is the idea that you can only really discover and learn your true preferences by gaining first-hand experience.

Starting point is 00:08:56 I think a lot of times people spend a lot of time theorizing what might be good and then apply after theory. I think the other way around, I feel like you're better off leading with experience and then distilling and creating mental models around yourself and defining your principles from actually putting yourself in situations where you feel the real constraints of realities and then you realize, okay, this is what I really care about

Starting point is 00:09:26 versus this, I don't really care about this. And for me, that's the reason why I was jumping into these very different environments. And from that, learn what is it that I really care about. And as I mentioned earlier, briefly, through all these experiences, I learned the thing that I always thought about and found enjoyment in was doing things around people development, talent

Starting point is 00:09:51 development, thinking about how do you unlock people's potential and so on. And once I got enough of those data points across settings, I knew or felt that was the area I had to focus on if I were to dedicate, take it of my life building a venture. And hence today I'm building on education, technology, business. So as I was listening, it seems like you have a scientist's mindset. You are intrigued by things you don't fully understand, but you're drawn to them. Your way of finding out more is to dive deep, collect data points, and explore.

Starting point is 00:10:37 You might start with a hypothesis, but as you gather more data, you either debunk or validate your initial theories, continuously refining your understanding until you reach a point where you discover your true passion. Would you say that's a fair summary of your experience? Yeah, I would say I would agree with like 80, 90 percent of what you share. The only thing I would say is I think oftentimes when you think about the scientific mindset, the one caveat is people then often spend a lot of time creating the underlying theory on which your hypothesis is formed. And then you go into the idea of validating in a very scientific way. Whereas I think for me, especially when it comes to career, one, I think it's hard to be that

Starting point is 00:11:39 scientific. And two, I think if you overthink about what is this theory underlying my preferences, I'm not sure if it's that helpful. So I agree with most of it, except I would say I'm a scientist that theorizes less when it comes to careers, I would say. A few episodes ago, I talked to one of my guests, who was actually my former professor at Chicago Booth. We seemed her serious love in logic. She studied computer science as an undergrad, but went on to earn her master's and PhD in theater history, a unique blend of art and science. Later, she taught entrepreneurship at the business school Chicago Booth,

Starting point is 00:12:34 which made for a fascinating life experience. We discussed the balance between love and logic. As you shared your journey with me, I see a similar blend of art and science in your approach. I always believed that career development is a form of craftsmanship. Some people overanalyze and calculate every step, while others are more free-spirited and go with the flow. But ultimately, it's about finding that balance between art and science. Feeling our way and figuring things out as we go. Yeah, that resonates with me. You mentioned Act Tech, education technology as your focus.

Starting point is 00:13:33 When I first got involved in the Act Tech space, and I still am, I was particularly active on the investment side. Every time I met an entrepreneur from any part of the world, my first question was always, why are you founding an ad tech company? The reason I ask is that when it comes to education technology, passion is crucial. Of course, you need to be smart and have the business acumen, the head, but the heart has to be there too.

Starting point is 00:14:16 I found that in education technology, that fire inside your heart is essential. Especially in those days, venture valuations for other types of tech, like ThinTech or blockchain, were much higher, while AdTech was relatively lower. That's why I really care about the why behind the work. What kind of impact do you want to make? And do you truly mean it when you say impact? So back to you, my question isn't just about why at Tech, but also out of all the issues and opportunities in the learning space, why did you decide to focus specifically on live group learning?

Starting point is 00:15:16 A couple of things. So in terms of why group learning, which I guess for people's context, Sparkwise is a platform that really scales live group learning where professionals come together, they'll be in real time video solving problems, they are practicing judgment, they are giving each other feedback, and they're really growing together and building skills together.

Starting point is 00:15:41 And there are two things that I would say that really underpinned this approach. One is, I mentioned I started my career at McKinsey and then I spent my time in a lot of different organizations across like all sectors, partly through work through McKinsey and then work through the international development stuff I did everywhere. And one thing I really appreciate about McKinsey and consulting was that they invest a lot of resources into developing their people because people are truly their core asset. And it's a place where people fight to get onto training programs and that's the first thing I experienced.

Starting point is 00:16:24 So I just thought that was actually what training looked like in corporate. I thought, so they put you into teams, they work together. It's super interactive and really engaging. And I thought that's what training was until I saw how different training felt like in other organizations that just don't have the resources to invest at that level and at the scale they're making. And so, and then a lot of the training that I really loved was in this live group format. So part of the motivation is that's in my mind what really great looked like, and I

Starting point is 00:17:00 wanted to build a way to really scale that approach. And then coincidentally, their pedagogy is quite similar to Harvard Business School, does case studies. And there's a lot of similar adult learning principle underpinnings. And also, I think it's quite research-packed in the way that how people learn. The second thing I would say that made

Starting point is 00:17:21 me want to start this is I felt like there was a really strong founder market fit when it comes to my unique abilities or what I thought are my unique abilities that could build this product. So throughout my life, I've just been involved in a lot of things that involve live groups. So when I was in Korea, I used to be on TV and I hosted a lot of live TV shows. So I was often a show host where I had to facilitate conversations. Then I, throughout my life in school, would often play some sort of a role in class, whether it be class president or social chair. So I was often again facilitating a lot of experiences for people. In work, I've facilitated a ton of really interactive workshops for clients,

Starting point is 00:18:21 where I also got insight into what it needs to bring people together. And finally, I MC weddings a lot. And so, like, a lot of the things that I do and I really enjoy are around bringing people together and somehow creating this dynamic that gets everyone to really engage. And I felt like I had really strong intuition and insight around this. So when I bring those two things together, it felt like there was an opportunity for me to create a new product that could really change what the default of online learning looks like with what I'm really good at. Yeah. online learning looks like with what I'm really good at. Yeah, speaking of online learning, I've been pretty involved in upskilling myself in recent months,

Starting point is 00:19:15 taking courses on platforms like Coursera. While Coursera offers on-demand online learning, there's little interaction and it's not very engaging, unless the topic really grabs my interest. On the other hand, I'm also taking some coaching classes which involve synchronized group learning with breakout sessions. That's a different experience altogether. And over the years, I've also had a lot of in-person experiences at business schools where I engaged in group dynamics and case studies,

Starting point is 00:20:05 debating in large classrooms or discussing cases in small teams. So when you mentioned designing your product to be similar to McKinsey or the Harvard Business School case method, it really resonates with me. So my question for you is, for regular learners, for everyday people who don't have the privilege of attending Harvard Business School or any other elite institution, how does your solution stand out? How does it differentiate itself from other learning scenarios I've mentioned, particularly

Starting point is 00:20:51 in terms of the learning experience and outcomes? Yeah, so I think, so the way I think about it is, so maybe the context here is adult learning principles and science are pretty clear. And there's a lot of evidence around how adults learn, right? I think actually the issue for most, and it's not like different people, like learning styles is not a thing, right? It's like a myth that's already been debunked. People really learn well skills where you require judgment and discussion

Starting point is 00:21:28 and sort of practice. People really learn better when they're with others. Now, the challenge is that the kinds of high impact learning where you're working with others is very expensive to scale. and it's very hard to do it flexibly also. And so what you often see is only the very sort of privileged or high budget institutions of the world are able to offer learners the truly great learning experiences grounded in

Starting point is 00:22:07 adult learning pedagogy and then when they're forced to scale they are making compromises in the learning experience that it's not grounded in learning science but at least it can get that content in front of the people who need to need it. But today, like in the past, there was no real way to scale truly science-backed, great learning to more people. So I would say what we're doing is we're taking that experience that today can only be accessed by really privileged sort of settings and making it much more accessible to many

Starting point is 00:22:47 more people through technology. So it's about scaling live grip learning. I also noticed an other key component you mentioned, fostering a sense of community. You've had experience as a TV host, a MC, and engaging with people in various social environments, and now you're trying to bring that sense of community into the learning process through technology. Personally, in the social media era, I found that the sense of humility often feels superficial. Reflecting on my own learning experience, like spending two years in business school with classmates, there was a genuine sense of comility,

Starting point is 00:23:46 but it came at the cost of time and being physically present in one location. Fast forward to today, you're using technology to scale life growth learning and engage learners. I'm curious about your approach to using technology to foster and develop a more genuine sense of community. How do you achieve that? I think this could be a game changer for many people, especially since despite the technology bringing us together,

Starting point is 00:24:25 social media has often made us feel more disconnected. Yeah, it's something that I think you're totally right that the sense of community has really been eroded and the word community has been diluted in the social media world. I would say, okay, so if you step back, what are the things that actually build true sense of community? In our view, I think it requires meaningful conversations that allow people to really get to know each other in a deeper way than they otherwise would.

Starting point is 00:25:06 Go beyond the small talk or the classics out of things you share in a normal context, and allow them to get deeper and learn about like, how do different people think? What are their values? Like, where do their perspectives come from? And so on. values, like what, where do their perspectives come from and so on. And I would say what the way we've designed our learning gets at sparking conversations to get at that level. So now comes the question of how do you create that kind of an environment?

Starting point is 00:25:36 You can't simply throw people into a group and say, now talk deep, right? People don't do that. And so the way we've tried to do it in our modules is that there are, I think there are a number of different levers we pull, but maybe I'll highlight two. The first one is in a lot of our modules, we first of all get people to solve problems together that are realistic but fictitious and that are not actually their own life problems. And by getting people to engage on this external problem, first of all it just gets people to start deeply engaging and opening up

Starting point is 00:26:16 in a more comfortable way because it's not like you're suddenly having to be very vulnerable from the get-go. And people also just really like problem solving together. I think it's one of the innate qualities of humans that gets people to wanna play social games, play board games, and do things with each other. And so we've created an environment where it feels like you're collaborating together

Starting point is 00:26:37 and working together. Then the second thing we do is we then layer on the kinds of interactivity that allows everybody to share in a meaningful way. So one of the examples of this interactivity in our platform is we actually get everyone to write down their thinking. So it's a group setting, but alone, solo, quietly for a few minutes. So you reflect on the questions first and you are able to organize your thoughts. Then afterwards, you're able to share with each other how you thought about the prompt that was given.

Starting point is 00:27:15 And so this sort of sequence intentionally allows everybody to have more of an equal voice in sharing and also the thoughts that they share to be more richer rather than people just off the cuff answering questions without having had a chance to really thought about it and write it down. So far, we've talked about your solution from the learner's perspective. But what about from the provider's perspective. But what about from the provider's perspective? When I say provider, I refer to training providers, coaches, consulting firms, and book authors.

Starting point is 00:27:58 I'm trying to learn more about your firm and it seems like your solution is very versatile, working well with different types of education and learning providers. And for these providers and partners, what pain points are you solving for them? If I come to you and say, Hey Vince, I want to build this product. I want to build this platform. I think your technology is right for me. product, I want to build this platform.

Starting point is 00:28:28 I think your technology is right for me, but I'd like to know more about the specific differentiation you offer compared to other learning solutions. What would you say? Yeah, I think usually, so I would say that clients fall in one of the two buckets, like broadly, in terms of why they find Sparkwise useful for them. The first one is around just the level and the richness of interactions that are available virtually through Sparkwise is much stronger than if they were to cobble together other tools like Zoom, then a whiteboarding tool and so on.

Starting point is 00:29:13 And in a very intuitive way that gets learners to just focus on the actual learning rather than be really distracted and overwhelmed by the amount of tools they have to toggle between. So, the first set of partners want to use Sparkwise because they want to bring an incredible learning experience to their clients that is interactive and they see Sparkwise as a tool to do it. The second group of partners that like us are the ones that are looking, they like the scalability on value proposition that I told you earlier.

Starting point is 00:29:45 For them, yeah, they can definitely, it's easy for a provider to host a group of let's say 10 to 15 people and do a very interactive session for them or do small group coaching. Those are all doable. But when you need to deliver learning to thousands or tens of thousands of learners across enterprises or different types of industries. Like how do you actually do that in a cost effective way, in a flexible way that doesn't force the partners to now have an army of different facilitators on demand that can pull in, right?

Starting point is 00:30:19 And so they see our solution as a way to really scale their business in a streamlined way. The skill and interactiveness you mentioned for smaller groups is impressive. Now recently, you announced a deal with Harvard Business Publishing to allow them to use your live group learning solution for their subscribers. Before you share more about that, I've noticed a trend with AI companies as AI and large language model technologies become more integrated into our daily lives. These AI companies are teaming up with media firms because these media firms have a wealth of quality content.

Starting point is 00:31:14 For example, OpenAI has partnered with The Atlantic, and Perplexity has revenue sharing agreements with media firms like Time and Fortune for AI-driven searches. Education is an other ecosystem rich in content. When I heard about your collaboration with Harvard Business Publishing, I started connecting the dots. HBP has a huge library of quality content and access to top tier authors. It seems to me that your technology could play key role in unlocking hidden value from this content and bringing it to life for a bordered audience. Is that your vision for this collaboration or do you have other different expectations for it?

Starting point is 00:32:28 I think you synthesize it quite well here. But the things that I would add to it are a couple of things. So definitely agree that there's a lot of idle content out there today, and there's a not all content needs this, but I think the content that people who that need to be fully absorbent, digested, and applied in real life, simply reading is rarely the best way for people to actually understand those concepts. So with collaborations like someone like Harvard Business Publishing, who have been a wonderful partner with us so far, we really do see an opportunity to allow their expertise to come to life and influence more lives. The second thing I would add is that especially with AI, just raw content is truly getting commoditized. It was

Starting point is 00:33:22 already in many ways commoditized, but now it's accessible in a way that it wasn't before AI, which means those with distinctive expertise are looking for ways to further elevate how you deliver that experience, above and beyond what people can get through simply asking an LLM. And so what we see is we're providing an alternative, a new way for people to engage with information and content that is human to human. That AI can't simply come and displace. That really gets people motivated to engage. That really creates ariha moments because you're talking to other people.

Starting point is 00:34:07 And hopefully through that we allow the truly great thinkers' ideas and insights to get spread much more to different parts of the world. It sounds like many of the thinkers and professors who publish articles through Harvard Business Publishing, along with book authors, could use these solutions to share their ideas and engage with learners and fans on a deeper level. That presents a huge potential not just with large publishers, but also with platforms like Substack for newsletters or even podcast platforms. I'm simply thinking out loud here, but for example, on platforms like Substack or in the podcasting space, many creators, including myself and yourself, could benefit from your technology. Independent book authors,

Starting point is 00:35:06 podcasters, other content creators, could use it to translate their content into a more interactive, community-based environment, allowing for deeper engagement and sharing of thoughts, insights, and advice with their audiences. Yeah, I think there's definitely a really interesting and promising opportunity there. Right now, we initially started by really focusing on first more of a B2B opportunity, also so that we can be focused on where we build out our products

Starting point is 00:35:44 and which features are built to enable which segments. But to your point, I think increasingly, especially now, there are going to be more and more of the solo creators or very small organizations that are reaching a lot more audience through the different digital channels that's been created. And we do think it could be really interesting to help them bring another way of engaging with their listeners and audience and fans through our platform over time.

Starting point is 00:36:13 Great. I can't wait to hear more about your developments because I truly believe that in addition to the B2B space, there's so much more. The rest of the world is hungry for solutions like yours. Thank you so much for sharing, Vince. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe to our show, leave us top rated reviews, subscribe to our show, leave us top-rated reviews,

Starting point is 00:36:46 check out our website, and follow me on social media. I'm Vince Chen, your ambitious human host. Until next time, take care.

Chief Change Officer - Vince Jeong’s Journey: From Immigrant Roots to Redefining EdTech Through Live Group Learning

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