Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 174 - Jeffrey Dahmer Part 2: Then Everything Was Magically Fixed

Episode Date: October 15, 2022

LIVE SHOW! OCTOBER 25th! LA! TICKETS ON SALE http://www.chilluminatipod.com/ Patreon - http://www.patreon.com/chilluminatipod BUY OUR MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Special thanks to our sponsors this episode Talkspace - http://www.talkspace.com Promo Code: chill Stamps - Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale at https://www.stamps.com/CHILL. Thanks to Stamps.com for sponsoring the show! HelloFresh - http://www.hellofresh.com/chill65 Promo Code: chill65 SOURCES: The Shrine of Jeffrey Dahmer by Brian Masters Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Art Commissioned by - http://www.mollyheadycarroll.com Theme - Matt Proft End song - POWER FAILURE - https://soundcloud.com/powerfailure Video - http://www.twitter.com/digitalmuppet

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Hello everybody and welcome back to the Chiluminati Podcast, episode 174 as always I'm one of your hosts Mike Martin joined by the Dick Powell and Mirna Loy of LA, Alex and Jesse. You hit me with what? You hit me? Did I get you? Did I finally stop you? Yeah, you got me. You got me.

All right. Wait, are those the two? There are thirties married couple who played Nick and Nora Charles in the Thin Man series of films. Yeah, no. I mean, I know the Thin Man series. I don't know any names. Yeah.

Bam. And I recognize your face. All right. Well, that's something. Got you. Got me. I just want to know who. Which one of you is Dick Powell?

Can I forfeit my Dick Powell and instead Dick Powell? Can I forfeit my Dick Powell and instead be his consummate co-star in film and TV, Bubsy Berkeley? Yes. Yes, absolutely. I love that name. Bubsy Berkeley? How did you get Bubsy Berkeley out of a duo that he wasn't that Bubsy Berkeley wasn't

even part of? He wasn't even part of, but Jesse went along. I want to be named Bubsy, bro. Well, fuck it. I'm Mirna Loy. You're not even a couple on screen. That's fine. This doesn't work.

I'm Mirna Loy. Oh, OK. That's fine. You know what? Take it away, Alex. I've lost control. I can't even say it properly. Man's name was Dick Powell.

Come on. Your name is Jesse Cox. Your name is Jesse Cox. You're right. You're right. You're right. Jesse Cox and Dick Powell. We go together like.

Penises. Penises and condoms. Penises, guys. Hold the hands. Skipping down the lane. Both names. Two dudes beating bros. Yeah.

And if you love jokes like that, you should head down on over to patreon.com slash Chaluminati pod where, you know, I don't I don't know. Go on. I thought you I thought you I thought the call died. What? That's it. Where you know what? You know, it's good.

You should go. Just go there. You know where you should go to our live show? Please God, come to our live show on a Tuesday. Please. We decided to have it on Tuesday because, and I quote, Mathis couldn't do it a normal day like a human being. Literally, we got offered Friday.

I was like, I'm going to a wedding that day. Weddings are for suckers and the future Mrs. Cox. I'm in the wedding party like I'm part of the wedding. Like I can't even be like, I can't go. Like I have to. Are you getting married? No, it's not me. It's one of my friends.

Well, then like, will they really miss you? Let's be honest. I mean, I'd like to think yes, but who knows? It could have been a pity invite. You said instead of a wedding come to our live show, it would have been fun. It would have been fine. Do you think they're fine with rescheduling to Friday now? I don't know.

Tell them daddy's got to get on a plane. Jaluminani.com. Please go buy tickets. We're over half a sold out. We've got a couple of weeks before the show hits, it's the 25th, October 25th, the week of Halloween. They're going to start selling. This is exactly what happened last time.

Once people realize they want to actually come do this on a Tuesday and that, you know, they love the show that much, that they will actually brave sleet and snow to come here in LA on a Tuesday and watch us just out of love. LA? Yeah, sleet and snow in LA. On the way. On the way from. If by sleet and snow, you mean like tacos and margaritas.

Yes. No. Here's what I mean. Going to target right up the street from the show, buying yourself a six pack of glow in the dark fangs. Because in the first minute of the show, which again, you can get tickets for it, JaluminaniPod.com. I am going to do Alex's big smile where everyone in the audience is going to whip out glowy vampire teeth and put them in their mouths and it's going to be a blinding like the blinding

rays of the sun. If there were really any vampires in there, gone. That's how bright it's going to be. This has to work because I've went all in like some merch is based on Alex's big smile for this live show. Yeah. We need to make sure he's right at me in public and private. He made the merch based off of it.

So let me tell you. This thing's going to happen, folks. It's going to be big. That's a scary thing. It's going to be a smile. So get ready for it. Right in the first minute of the show, I know at least 100 of you are going to be there to do this.

I'd like to see more. Come on. That's true. There better be at least 100. JaluminaniPod.com. Some people said they were going to maybe go to see Jesse at TwitchCon this weekend and meet him with glowing teeth. Did that even happen?

I met no one with glowing teeth. Wow. All right. Well, I told that's not. They probably couldn't find me even though I had a signing. No glowing teeth. That's not an omen for the show. I have more bright pink sunglasses to protect myself from the glowing teeth.

Not a one. Oh my God. I got some new sunglasses because I bought Splatoon. Never mind. Let's get into the show. Are we ready, boys? Yay. For part two of a long journey.

Three or four parts haven't decided yet. Party over here. America's favorite serial killer to obsess over, Jeffrey Dahmer. Sunny day. Dahmer kind of lived on what the opposite of Sesame Street would be as we'll find out as we continue down this road. Buns. Buns Street.

Yeah. Buns. Brioche Boulevard. Brioche Road. He was more like on Rye Road, I think. Nobody really likes Rye Bread. I don't. What the hell are you talking about?

What kind of fucking spicy take is that at the beginning of the serial killer episode? That's the take you want to consider spicy. Don't tell me and then tell me about Rye Bread and then tell me about murders. What's the hell do you do with a Patty Melt? What do you do with a Patty Melt? You're a monster. I don't. I've had a Patty Melt in forever.

OK. OK. Well, I'll be there in a few days. We changed that. But we also need to get you like a nice buttered grill top Rye. Yeah. Just. Oh, all right.

I'll definitely try Rye Bread again. I mean, it's not like it made me throw up. I just wasn't a fan. I'll get ready. You know, I'm not a big fan of the Rye. All right. I need to know. What is your go-to bread then?

Holy. Holy. I'm very boring. You basic bitch. Just like Jerry Simon. I know. I know. And then right under that is Potato Bread.

Potato Bread is right under that. You know what? As an Irishman, I support Potato Bread. You got it. You got it. You got it. You got it. You know, you got to do what you got to do.

Sometimes you don't. You got to put the potatoes in there to make the bread. And then Hawaiian Bread is number three because it's like a dessert. Hawaiian Bread is number three? It doesn't count. It's like a fun bread. You know? Not even like ice cream in there.

Yeah. A little scoop of ice cream while I am. It's delicious. I like pucascia or a ciabatta or like good loaf. I am emotionally and mentally like eight. So you know? Like a pumpernickel. We talked about my favorite cereal last week being a lucky charm.

Math is going to come back. His third eye is going to be open. He's going to be bald. He's going to be in like a trench coat. He's going to float when he rests. It's going to be good. I'm excited. Yeah.

So that's what you're going to see at the live show. Be there for the opening of my third eye, which is just going to be me being bent over over spreading my asshole up and screaming for aliens. What? That's my third eye. Math is second act. It's his second act as they call it. Is the asshole act?

No, I'm all right. It's the asshole act. And it's way more literal than you would hope. So last we left off with Jeffrey Dahmer or as we called him Lil Jeffy, you know, his little muppet baby's origins as he was like an infant in Baby Dom Toms. Lil Dom. Lil D. We left.

Yeah. Lil Dom. Lil Dommie. You think he's a Lil Dommie boy? He's got a lot of grizzly details about this fuckers life that I have to hear from you right now. All right. Well, we're going to dive right into it.

Because when we left, left him off, he had committed his first of what would be a decades long serial killing career of 17 victims, all boys or men at the age of 18 in the midst of his parents' rather difficult divorce and left home alone for weeks and months at a time. Dahmer was left to fight the consistent rising thoughts of possessing someone, a body of his own that would not fight nor say no, but lay completely still while he had absolute and total control. Can I?

I just want to say something. This is totally, I mean, it's on topic, but it's also off topic. So earlier today, we were having a conversation and in the office here and I made a joke about how, remember how like online, there was this dude who made a petition that was like, why can't there be government mandated girlfriends? Do you remember that like weird moment? Yeah. No, I do not.

I don't. I don't remember that at all. Yeah. Government mandated girlfriends. And I honest to God, hearing you say this whole, like he wants to control a person, they're theirs, it is the same wavelength of like, why can't I just be given a woman that I can control? It's the exact same, except here he's like, I just want to do it that I can like, you

know, hold. It so objectifies the entire relation. It's a solo server. That's, that's. It objectifies the person in a literal sense, and that's something that Dahmer will even see in this episode admits. But it also makes it easier to kill when it's not a person. It's your property.

Yeah. Correct. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. At this point in his life, he believed his only recourse for years was to escape into

the bottle, to suppress every shameful and horrible thought with alcohol, only for the alcohol to eventually become the very thing that triggered and quote unquote allowed Dahmer to fulfill the fantasies and deep desires he had buried deep within himself. In that horrible spiral of alcohol and ever increasing fantasies, Dahmer would eventually kill Stephen Hicks, the hitchhiker that we met last episode that was merely on his way to a rock concert, eventually taking his dismembered body and stuffing it in a drain pipe underneath the crawl space of the family home after being pulled over by the cops for driving slightly left of center because Dahmer was drunk as shit.

The dead body in his fucking backseat. This is something I didn't actually point out last episode and meant to. The cop that pulls him over is the cop that eventually is the one that walks into his apartment getting him arrested. It's the same fucking guy years later. That's Tommy Lee Jones in No Country for Old Men right there. I was about to say that does feel very movie-esque. It is very movie-esque.

I was the one who let him get away and by God, I'll stop him. But another thing too is keep in mind as we talk about it more, it's more of an episode three thing how much the cops fucked up over and over and over and over again. I'll bet your dreams have never ventured here. Replace slot machines and crowds with slot canyons and small town charm. Create neon city lights and showtimes for starlit skies and the best earth on show. Epic red rock cliffs, unreal wildlife and unbelievable coral pink dunes. Because when you vacation in Cannab, you'll hit the jackpot every time.

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Like I said, in that ever-increasing spiral, he went through that murder of Stephen Hixon and hid the body. But this would only be the start, the tip of the proverbial iceberg of Dahmer and his crimes. In Dahmer's words, it was this night, this moment, this first kill that set everything into motion. After this, for him, he said there was really no going back, no matter how hard he tried. Yet personally, I still firmly believe that things tumbled out of control well before

this, since he was a heavy alcoholic starting at the age of 14, where his parents and friends both knew about it and did nothing about it. His drinking was far from a secret, and when his friends would ask him what he was drinking in school, he simply called it his medicine. Cool. Like a fricking drunk ass grandma. And he was drinking, oh God, I think it was Jin at this point. I believe it was Jin.

He later does transfer over to whiskey later on as he gets older. As a drunken celebrity once told me on an airplane, Jin makes you sin. And sin and sin that celebrity did. Yes, and that celebrity did. That is fucking nuts. That's like some like Cthulhu. Like like he's like his life got corrupted by the bottle in like a in like a movie-esque way.

The cop is there in a movie-esque way. It's fucking crazy how this shit happens. Yeah, it's not. It's no wonder they make movies about this shit, but it's just because it's so fucked up. It's fucked up. It's it's, you know, people have a fascination with Jeff Reed, serial killers in general. As we've talked about many times before, the psychology of them trying to figure out like why they are the way they are when you're so far away from them.

And to that point, actually, we talked a little bit about his mother in the last episode and I kept using, you know, narcissism. The more I did some research and the more stuff I watched, then it's coming week. I less believed that the mother was narcissistic and much more believed that she had some form of PTSD, was very insecure and had a lot of trauma in her childhood that we don't know too much about that really informed the way she would act moving forward as a parent and as an adult. Doesn't excuse what she did to her family members, nor does it excuse

how his father acted toward his mother, but it is important to make the distinction between narcissism and trauma. And I don't think, you know, again, looking at this from the outside, I don't think that it was the case that she was narcissistic. I mean, all of this and everything we've ever talked about when it comes to these types of killers or criminals or whatever comes down to the fact that there's so much undiagnosed, untreated trauma and things that they, the fact that like 100 percent, it's very much a sign of the times,

but also a 14 year old drinking isn't like, boy, that 14 year old loves to drink. That 14 year old's covering up for something. Yeah, exactly. That alcohol is masking the real problem. And it's very obvious here, all the different things we talked about. Like just hearing about this now that he took to drink at 14. I'm like, yeah, no, that completely checks out. So many unresolved issues.

Yes. And I think that's another reason Dahmer himself remains so prevalent in the public mind decade after decade is because for him, he's one of the ones that you wonder if he had gotten help early in his life, could this path have been avoided or was he, you know, kind of broken on a fundamental level in ways that like Bundy were. And I think we can see both arguments, but I'm going to, you know, I think personally, lean more toward that. He was always kind of fucked up and it's very well,

maybe likely he would have gone through with it eventually. I just don't know what the deal is with serial killers. There's too much like, oh, yeah, there's too much weirdness about the psychology and profiling of serial killers. Like, I don't know if there's like something that then you just become a serial killer. You know, I don't know. Well, that's why we look at, you know, serial killer bingo. The only way we can try and track what are regular kind of behavioral patterns.

Usually there's a way they've done on like on psychopaths and sociopaths studies while having like things scanning their brain when they're showed traumatic images, instead of like, you know, having that reaction, you know, will say like neurotypical people might have where it's like, you know, empathy and like don't want to see it. Their brain reacts in a way that goes, huh, that's interesting. They process the information and then are ready to move on to the next thing. It doesn't hit them in an emotional way that it did for most people.

So there's there's that that development, that brain disconnect, that the physical brain is unable to make certain connections that others and, you know, a neurotypical brain might be able to make. And that plays into a part of it. And I think Dahmer suffered from that as we'll we'll see as we continue. I just think the characterization of it as like some sort of like Hunter or, you know, like how it is in the movies where people are like, I'm going to get you.

I'm not like that. I feel like they're not really like I think they enjoy the attention that it brings to them. But I don't think they're looking to the movies for like the profile of like why it's I don't think, you know, like, I think it's Dahmer was. So it's like for like Dahmer was a socially awkward weirdo when he went to clubs and he went looking for prey. He just sat a bar alone and would wait for people to come to him.

And he would just kind of have a really awkward conversation before eventually just offering them the drug to drink that he had had with him and just getting to the part he cared about. Like he wasn't like, I'm going to get you. And he wasn't socially mingling. He was like weird and staying away and didn't like to talk to people. That's kind of fucked up. But it like reminds me of like a fucking.

See an eminy or some shit. It's just like some fucking creature. That's how they hunt. It's like a fucking weird as creature that evolved that has like some weird as shit going on, fucking, you know, regular people don't like senselessly murder people out of curiosity, you know, for of science or whatever the fuck, you know, it's just interesting, like weird expression of human psychology that is like so just.

Like out there, it's just scary. It just reminds you your brain is unknowable. There's just so much about how a brain works. That is feels right. Yeah, feels random that serial killers exist. Yes, very much so. So now that he's at 18 years old with his first murder under his belt, we see another sort of deviance from Dahmer compared to what I can compare

to your typical serial killers. Like most serial killers, after their first kill, Dahmer goes into what is known as sort of a cooling off period, kind of got it out of his system. And he's not kind of like the urges are repressed, where most find their inner desires finally sated and able to gain control again, like Bundy going back to live his normal life with his family and girlfriend and all that and lead a normal life in between his killings. Dahmer instead falls into like a spiral of sadness and guilt.

If he wasn't found sobbing by himself at his at his family's house, his parents would instead find him unconscious in his own bed, blackout drunk. All the liquor in their home had been drank down to the very bottom of the bottle. And as much of an introvert Dahmer already had been, he just continued to seclude himself further after this first kill. Lionel, his father, had tried everything in his mind to get Jeff out of the house and find something he could find a passion in and a path forward in life from sports to clubs to science.

Very little seemed to stick beyond one thing that we kind of left out last and science revolution. No, just kidding. Yes, he was a huge DDR fan. He was there for the first launch. Early on in Jeff's life, his father had gotten him into weightlifting. And it was one of the very few things that actually stuck as a part of Dahmer's daily routine, all this to make sure that you understand that Dahmer was also huge.

The dude was over six feet tall and he was ripped, well built and could overpower anybody. In July of 1978, his parents' divorce had finally become official and his mother, Joyce, fled off to Wisconsin. He would only see his mother one more time in the 80s until he was eventually arrested and would see her via court. Dahmer was still living at the family home, essentially completely alone, and his father had moved out and was living with a girlfriend at this point. And one day, his father and his new girlfriend, Sherry,

walked in on a visibly confused, drunken, stumbling Dahmer. They tried to speak with him, find a path forward as they always had or find something that he cared about, but all of that ended up completely fruitless. Dahmer seemed to hold no interest in anything beyond continuing to drink. So he simply continued drinking, the only hobby that seemed to have stuck past the weightlifting. Eventually, Sherry, the girlfriend, had enough and took action into her own hands. And what did she do? But enrolled Jeff in Ohio State University.

He wasn't going to sip the house and be a drunken useless. He's going to college. That's what she did. Like a real world contestant, except this is a serial killer. You're going on to college. Everything about this person is just like they just went on MTV's rule. And it's weird that it's the girlfriend that made that decision and not Lionel himself.

It was very much a nonrelative enroll someone in college. He against his will. I can only. Well, yeah, I guess like that's a good question. I don't know how his 70s and 60s were. Well, this is at the late 70s at this point. Did he just not go? No, he went. So afterward, Jeff got driven down to Ohio State University by Lionel and Sherry

and moved into the Ross House dormitory room, room 551, where he would share it with three other roommates, Craig Chueger, Michael Prochaska and Jeffrey Gurdrick. So yeah, I think just he went to college like he was like he just he didn't care. He just kind of got shoved around and put into places. And he just had no ambition other than to continually drink his issues away. Like homework, right? He just fucking failed everything, right? Well, let's find out what they say about Jeff's time as their roommate

would be what you probably expected at this point. When they saw him awake and conscious, he was either laying on his back, staring at the ceiling, repeatedly listening to the new Beatles album, specifically the song I Am the Walrus was his favorite that he played repeatedly. So, you know, that's a great memory hearing. I am the walrus just playing on repeat in your dorm room the whole time. What year was this if he wasn't doing what you this is?

Oh, God, 70 something. I can't over 10 years. He's just thrown on. I am the walrus. He's just throwing it on and just playing it over and over and over. And if he wasn't listening to that, he was listening to the recorded lectures of the classes he missed because Jeff literally never woke up in the morning or went to class trying to do homework while he was like drunkenly

while he was taking in the lessons like as best he could. What the fuck? And for what little decoration he had up in his part of the dorm. The only thing that they noted that he had put up was he hung up a picture of Vice President Walter Mondale for no discernible reason. Yeah, he just had a picture of the Vice President Walter Mondale. Here's what I'll say about that. People in dorms like there's like weird dumb shit

that happens when you're like young and you don't know how to live by yourself. Yeah, somebody puts up a picture of Walter Mondale on their wall on the fucking first day they move in and everybody's like, dude, fucking President Mondale. Yeah. And then it like stays up for seven years. I don't know if anybody was like, hell, yeah, dude, Walter Mondale. I just think nobody talked to Jeff and Jeff. Jeff did his own thing.

You know that like in the halls, like, are you going over to Mondale's tonight? Like they just they eat a real name. Who's Mondale? The room where they go to Mondale. Yeah, I thought his name really was Mondale. I don't think anybody wanted to hang out in the Mondale suite in this college because at this point, Dahmer was up to drinking two bottles of whiskey a day. Jesus. Yeah. In a desk. How did he not just die?

I mean, good question. He was a big guy. I don't know. All of this was in the desperate attempt to bury every thought and urge that he had while going back and forth, sobbing about the murder of Stephen Hicks. His alcohol habit couldn't be supported by the allowance his father was giving him alone. So he also began to donate blood for money. Eventually, the place actually had to mark his fingernail

to ensure that he was only donating once a week. He was going there that time out. I don't know anything about donating blood in mass quantities. I've done it for like charity stuff, but never drunk. You know, like, I feel like, yeah, I don't know how that isn't. Like, maybe he ran out of alcohol. So I'm like, I'm saying, yeah, like if it's in the blood, that's one thing. But also losing blood while you were two bottles in.

I can't imagine that's good. Yeah. Oh my God. I can't imagine that's a good time. How did this obviously live? Well, he got killed in jail. So I just mean like, how did he ever make it past this? How did he live to murder 18 more people or whatever the fuck? It's crazy. It's a crazy story. Over time, Ohio State University,

his behavior became more erratic and unpredictable. As an example, one night, his three roommates had returned back to the dorm after a night out of drinking in jovial good times as friends. And when they returned, all of the furniture in the dorm had been stacked into a corner. And for some reason, pizza had been thrown across all of the walls. Dahmer never gave a reason as to why he did that.

There's thoughts about, like, why that would be what he did and like, maybe what emotional he's trying to represent in that. But just seem like crazy nonsense. And another time they returned to find that the bathroom tile had been kicked out in an act of rage. And eventually it just and eventually it would escalate to Jeff actually stealing from them when they were gone. A hundred and twenty dollars missing there, a bike disappeared.

And they all suspect it was Dahmer because in his notebook, he had the address of a local pawn shop written down. Fuck. So he's in full like addict mode at this point. He did this for four years. No, well, no, they did not make it four years in college. He he didn't even make it through the first semester. This is all in the first semester, like all in a short few months.

Luckily, the roommates wouldn't need to live with Dahmer too much longer. Since after that first semester of college, his grades were so poor that his family in the college came together to discuss if it was even worth it for him to continue. And by Christmas, he dropped out, regardless of them having prepaid the second semester in full already. Should not have enrolled that man in college. The dude was also college was mega cheap back then.

So, you know, you're not thinking like $10,000 every time someone in their sixties tells eighteen year olds to suck it up. That maybe. Yeah, this is what they're talking about. Yeah, they just left it. They just left. You know, they didn't get their money back. He just dropped out of college.

It was the best choice. And that was it. So Dahmer was saying Dahmer was a boomer. It's just saying. Yes, he was. He was a boomer and his dad was over the silent generation. Um, so there's short one semester since didn't in college. Dahmer ended up moving back to Bathall, Ohio, where it didn't get much better.

On top of the drinking, he began to smoke marijuana and hanging out with an old high school friend by the name of Jeff. Six, Jeff, whoa, I love Jeff, future. That's a bounty. That's a future bounty. Well, let's see how much you love Jeff. Six after this six, doesn't he? That's where he got all of his weed in high school when he was smoking.

Was his friend, Jeff, six, he would go off and smoke with Jeff, six. Does he have a real last name or is that his real last name? That is a six. Get the fuck out. Yeah. And they didn't talk about it much last episode because it wasn't imperative. But just so you know, like he this is the person he would hang out with in high school when he went to go smoke.

And one notable time that Jeff recalls hanging out with him in high school is when they went drive around town and Jeff, six made a game out of hitting as many. Never mind. I don't like I don't like Jeff, six anymore. I take it all back. S.I.X. Take it all back. S.I.X. Yeah, he sucks. He sucks. Jeff, six sucks.

S.I.X. Six. S.I.X. Six. Jeff sucks. More like it. Jeff sucks. Dahmer made a note that he had hit six dogs that day and he was like having a great time. Is that how you got the name Jeff, six? No, that's not how we got.

That's just coincidence. And all Jeff could remember of that day was the sadness in the animals eyes that would stick with him forever. Right before they would go under the hood of the car. Like that's what he mentions is like the other Jeff driving was having a great time. Dahmer was feeling bad for the animals, but it's not not enough to stop him.

Is this not enough to get out of the car and go a different way? Like in that, I think that's a little red flag of like a little one. He still went through with it. Yeah, a little red flag. This episode is built to personally destroy me. This episode hates me and wants to hurt me. This is one point. I know it's all nuts.

At one point, now that he was back home, Jeff even borrowed his dad's car without permission. And the next morning Dahmer was back home, but had no idea how he got there. The car was nowhere to be found. And he had no idea where he had left it in town, making Lionel and Sherry have to go out and just look for the car, eventually finding it parked on a street somewhere.

And being parents of the sixties, the last solution they could come up with that came to their mind was one that you could probably expect at this point. His father brought him to Akron, Ohio, Military Recruitment Office and signed Dahmer up for the military. I just want to point out for all my Ohio fans as Akron. But yeah, Akron, I got you. I got you. I just got to know my boys back in Ohio.

It would be like Akron. No, Akron, Akron, Ohio. Yeah, so he brought him. He brought him to get him signed up for the military and only a couple of weeks after being signed up for the military on Christmas Eve, Lionel and Sherry would officially marry and Dahmer would not go to the wedding. Then five days later on the 29th,

he left for Alabama in basic training. I bet you this went off. He goes. I bet you after college, he was just dying to just do a great job for once. Yeah, he was really looking forward to proving himself. He applied himself, didn't become a serial killer, alternate timeline established, low key season two. That's what you do, you know, kind of in a way.

That's what his dad had been hoping for, sending him that this was going to be the thing that put him on the straight. And now it's going to be the B plot of low key season two. Yeah, yeah, got it. Yeah, exactly. The first four weeks of basic training were very strict. No alcohol was allowed and being and since Dahmer was slightly overweight, they put Dahmer on a strict diet of five boiled eggs a day

and a five mile walk to get him into quick shape. And it worked like it's all he was allowed. Did he just like, did he just like have the DTs and go through hell? Yeah, like he just he just literally dealt with his withdrawal while he was there. He had no other choice. He did not drink for those weeks. That's insane. Yeah, Lionel had hoped that this strict

this forced strict lifestyle would hopefully snap Dahmer out of the alcoholic haze. But secondarily, I personally think it was also a relief just for the dad to get Jeff out of his life because he was only home for like a few weeks before they were like, you've got to go, you've got to go. Regardless, after those four weeks of sobriety and forced restrictions when they were lifted, Jeff wasted zero time going right back to the alcohol. Regularly getting reprimanded for his drunkenness and even at one point had his whole platoon punished for his drunkenness,

which prompted a heavy beating, rupturing one of his eardrums and ensuring that he suffered from random ear aches for the rest of his life. Do you think that was a physical trauma platoon? His platoon beat the hell out of him for getting him in trouble because he just kept drinking. So because that's what happens in the military, right? Like you get like you get in trouble. Your whole platoon gets in trouble because it's like a a bonding thing.

You're all one one unit. You think that's what activated his serial killer? No, I think he was already desperately trying not to be a serial killer in his own weird way. Needless to say, after that, he did everything he could to keep his drinking as quiet and secret as possible. But he did not stop drinking in May of 1979. Dahmer would then be sent to Texas to be trained as a field medic for the army. And surprise, surprise, he took to that very well.

It's here Dahmer learned pretty much every dirty trick in the book from his reliance on using drugs to succumb to his victims to the way he would dispose of corpses after they were no longer viable for him to keep around as his play things. He's like the opposite of Batman. Complete. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then after fully trained, after being fully trained over the course of six weeks,

Dahmer would then get officially assigned to number 268 armor division, second battalion and stationed in West Germany, arriving there in June of 1979. So he's off in Germany now. And it's here we kind of lose touch with Dahmer for nearly two years while he spent time in Germany, which is weird because he certainly saw people every day, but surprisingly or maybe unsurprisingly, people don't really remember all that much about him. He seemed to go out of his way to not make friends and keep a low profile.

And those in his unit not making much of an effort to befriend him. And of course, it was advice versa for him. He wasn't trying to make friends with anybody else. We do, however, know a few small things about his time in Germany. First, when a few of his unit was friendly, quote unquote, enough with him, they learned that not only did Dahmer not have a girlfriend, but he hadn't even kissed a girl before. So being boys, they took it upon themselves to rectify the situation

and decided to take him to a local brothel where the group of men, once they got there, predictably split up and lost track of each other, giving Dahmer the opportunity to very quietly slip away and not have to go through with any of it later, telling the people, the boys that brought him that he didn't even want to go in the first place. And this prompted the thought of one of the platoon guys who tried to bring him, wondering if he had been secretly gay, but he says not because he turned down the brothel, but because at that point, it seemed like Dahmer was hiding something

and he thought this was it. And he was obviously right on part of it, but not, you know, fully what was going on. Dahmer was consistently keeping himself alone, having discovered a gay pornographic bookshop not too far away from where he was stationed, spending his money on magazines and booze, which was sold to all soldiers at half price. So all alcohol was mega cheap for him to buy. Yeah, he was getting half price booze out in fucking Germany. He was just fucking living it up.

Um, and yeah, it's it's wild. And he self admittedly was having an emotional breakdown at one point, sobbing once again over the murder of Stephen Hicks. But it's important to think about why Dahmer was crying here, which becomes more evident when we talk later about Dahmer after he was arrested. Self pity. It's too easy when listening to Dahmer, his interviews and to again, empathize with this lonely guy

to assume that he truly does maybe feel guilty for killing him. But I think it becomes becomes apparent that he's more worried about the repercussions on himself and the things that might happen to him if he's caught rather than actually caring about Stephen Hicks and the murder, especially since it's about it like a debt more than like an emotional way. Yeah, and especially because it's been about two years from from since the killing at this point, body is still under the house. And what the actions he takes later, I think, help inform this as well.

But I don't I truly like it's really easy to think that Dahmer truly felt built. But you have to if you go and listen to his interviews and I, you know, if you have any interest, I highly suggest you do so. The way he phrases things, the words he use, he stays particularly detached at all times from everything. An example, I don't even have written here, but I'll use it right now, is even when it came to his grandmother, when he asked when asked directly if he loved his grandmother, he says basically he describes his grandmother

as a sweet woman who deserve, you know, who was kind. He gives every reason she was basically deserved to be loved and was loved by others, but he could never say that he loved her. It was always a layout as to why she's a good person, but no emotional like, I love her. Yes, I love her. It was only ever analytical in that regard. And some people do believe that Dahmer may have also been autistic, which may be true, but doesn't really inform his actions here.

The thought process is because he is so emotionally detached or empathetically detached from people that he'll do these crimes, he'll do these things. And his fear isn't having done them or it's even though to me, I killed this person and like effort, it doesn't matter. Society doesn't look too kind on what I did. So I'm worried about them judging me more than the act itself because the act is really like it's societies that the problem worried about

getting caught, in my opinion, less. That's what I'm saying. Like like he doesn't want like the laws. He doesn't think they wouldn't agree with them. But like he still has to buy by one of the we'll talk about in the next episode. But just to that, one of the victims when, you know, talking about if he feels guilty about killing any of them, he feels guilty about killing a particular victim, not because the person was a living, breathing person and they were an individual who he robbed of life, like a monster.

But because after he killed them, he had to get rid of the body almost immediately because he almost got caught and he didn't have a chance to use it. And he says he regrets like he felt like a waste. Like he murdered pointlessly that the that he would have felt better if he had gotten to use the body because in his weird mind, it doesn't go to waste that way. It's almost like almost like a hunt killing an animal and using the body as like, you know, eating the meat and in using the animal. Yeah.

Yeah, he sees it in that kind of weird context where it's not about the person. He regretted it because he shouldn't he didn't need to die because I didn't even get to use it. What a waste because he doesn't see them as people, their their property, their products, theirs, which is why I'm I'm I wonder if any help would have helped him because maybe he's just been detached from from childhood. But there's a lot of detached people that don't end up like serial killers. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No shit.

And it doesn't need no excuse at all. The only other bit that we know about Dahmer during his time in Germany was during Thanksgiving of 1979, a man named Carlos Cruz invited Dahmer and a few other of the fellow soldiers for a traditional Thanksgiving meal while they were stationed there in Germany. The details aren't readily available, but for one reason or another, we do know that Dahmer and another soldier, Davis, got into a very intense shouting match arguing with Davis shouting at Dahmer

to go back to Baumholder, which is where they were stationed. That's where they were being sat at. And after the argument and he shouted that at him, Jeff took the advice and quietly left the home at 10 30 p.m. Walking into a blizzarding snowstorm disappearing for four hours. It's Jeep four by four season. Make your next adventure epic and hurry in now for great deals. Now, well qualified, returning FC LSCs get a low mileage lease

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Plus, every single burrow order ships free right to your door. Right now, get 15 percent off your first order at burrow.com slash podcast. That's 15 percent off at burrow.com slash podcast. They did attempt to look for him, but had assumed that he simply must have called a cab and went back to the to the fort. What? After those four hours, though, Jeff showed back up their doorstep, where they eagerly welcomed him back in shouting, hey, the orphans back. Jeff, very quickly with Cruz, went to the kitchen where he apparently

quickly and furiously washed off his hands with Cruz remarking that he thought he saw what might be blood on his hands. They also noted that he didn't seem cold, freezing or any of the other things that you know you would expect for someone spending four hours outside in a blizzard. It was clear at this point that Dahmer to Cruz was suffering with something, keeping something to himself. And Cruz invited Dahmer later that night to talk about it. Maybe he could get it off his chest and he could confide in Cruz.

Of course, Dahmer refused, but did say, quote, you know, sometimes the best thing for a soul is to confess, but would not confess regardless. Very weird thing to kind of like flowed out there. The Dahmer kind of just floats out there. Now, I do want to also go further and clarify that when Dahmer's crimes did come to the forefront, Germany did immediately start looking into killings and potential missing persons cases to see if anything would match up

with Dahmer's kind of like modus operandi, if anything happened. And nothing came up. The only thing that they were able to discover was a female that was killed. But females weren't Dahmer's like victim choice. It just wasn't it didn't fit in the way it needed to. So it does seem from what evidence we have, he didn't commit any murders. Though if there were blood on his hands and that's what Cruz saw, he could have attacked someone and never went through with it, drug them.

They don't remember it. It's possible something like that happened because he was in a point of emotional stress. He just had a huge argument and he's likely drunk or at least tipsy. And he probably went out and got drunk and who knows what he did. We just don't have an account for those four hours. So it just, you know, kind of again, put that out there. But we don't have any evidence that he did actually commit any murders while in there. So he after he returned home and Dahmer kind of said, you know,

that's something for the soul to confess. He never confessed and continued on with his drunkenness, continuing to be reprimanded and scolded by the army until eventually he was dismissed honorably six months prior to when he was supposed to be released because of his consistent drunkenness, apparently saying to his bunkmates on the way out while he gathered his things, this won't be the last you hear of Jeffrey Dahmer. Phew. So, yeah, like, I'm sure he was drunk when he said it.

Who knows, you know, it's one of those things that they say he said. I'm sure he wasn't like thinking on his future career as a serial killer when he said that. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure that wasn't on his mind whatsoever. On March 24th, 1981, Dahmer was sent to Fort Jackson, South Carolina to be debriefed and essentially given a one way ticket to anywhere that he wanted to go, having been, you know, on the army's dime.

Like, where do you want to go? Where do you want to start your life here? While he had his all of his belongings and suitcases sent back home to his father's house in Ohio, Dahmer chose to take the opportunity and maybe even attempt to take control of his life and decided to get a ticket to where else but sunny, beautiful Miami, Florida, baby. That's where he believed that he would be able to start fresh. Random choice, really? Yeah, there's I don't know the reason Miami.

I think he was in Miami a little bit because of the army prior, but there's really no reason to choose Miami otherwise for him. He had absolutely nothing to his name since he sent all of his belongings back home to his dad and he took up a motel room and a job as a sandwich guy at a local sub shop, hoping that the warm weather, beach and positive vibes of Miami would help clear his mind and thoughts. But what else did we expect but for Jeff to spend every last penny earned on his job on alcohol? But it's important to note, it seems that Jeff, while maybe well intentioned going to Miami, seemed to make absolutely zero effort in improving his life and actually acting on those supposed attempts.

He made no attempts to ingratiate himself socially within the Miami's local gay scene, only spending his time at work and then back at the motel to drink. He made no friends or acquaintances beyond an English girl that he worked with at the Sandwood shop, who propositioned that he marry her so she could legally live in the US as she was here on a via a visitor's visa. John Dahmer obviously said no. Yeah, she was an 18 year old English girl. You wouldn't really call him friends, but acquaintances, I guess. And it's like the only female friend Dahmer ever had. And yeah, he turned her down, obviously, to the marriage proposal so that, you know, we didn't see her much after he really weird.

It's very strange. Eventually, what little money that he had saved up would, of course, run out and he'd be unable to continue to pay to live at the motel. Then moving where else than to live on the beach every night after work, sleeping on the sand under the stars instead. So now Dahmer is essentially purely homeless. His father hadn't even realized that he'd left the army until his belongings randomly showed up at his doorstep one day without Jeff accompanying them. Then now with literally nothing but himself and his meager job to keep him occupied, Dahmer could no longer fight off the thoughts, fantasies and desires that continually bubbled up

a little stronger every time. So now desperate and giving up on Miami, he called his dad and Lionel bought him a ticket back to Ohio, rejoining his family and living in his child at home again after three years of being away. You thought you're free of him for three years and here comes old Dami boy now 21. I believe this is like the Spider-Man Remakes where they just keep telling the origin story over and over again. It's fucking crazy. It wouldn't take long for Dahmer. What was that?

It is fucking crazy. And when he got back, it did not take long for him for Dahmer to try and permanently rid himself of the thoughts of Stephen Hicks when he got home. His remains had stayed in that drain pipe under the crawl space for three years. One night when Lionel and Sherry had left to go out, Dahmer went into the crawl space and took out the remains of Stephen Hicks, hauling them into the woods behind the house. At this point, all that was left of the remains was bone. And in a desperate attempt to clear his thoughts and remove evidence, Dahmer took a big rock and smashed all the bones into fragments in dust, eventually scattering them all across the woods throughout the background.

It just sounds like so much work. Trippy. Just yeah, you got to be real committed to the murder, I guess. Like that's just like already like I couldn't do it. Well, with the what we know of what happens with Dahmer later on, it's definitely ritualistic in some regard in his way of trying to remove this thought that he blames for consistently making his life hell. But at the same time, I do believe he, you know, the worry of it being found was also a primary driving factor. And the best way for him to get rid of it was to just smash it into dust, nobody, no crime.

He hucked the knife that he used years ago into the river. So that's long gone. He's dedicated to something he cares about. He does what he does like a like a bang up job when he cares. Yeah, yeah, he's very good at things. The very few things this man gives a shit about a life at home with 20 or 21 year old Dahmer for his father and Sherry seem to have changed minimally. While they attempted to get Jeff moving in a forward direction, specifically outside of the house and away from them. And Dahmer even agreed, asking for tasks to help keep him occupied.

All of that just seemed like surface level pleasantries as Jeff, while agreeing to do tasks, just continued to drink anyway and getting drunk. He never actually, again, all talk, no action. His life back home would literally only last two weeks before Lionel and Sherry suggested that Jeff move in with his grandmother, Catherine Dahmer. At this point, she was getting old and lonely, and he would have room and board while keeping his grandmother company. Initially not completely convinced by the idea, it didn't take too long for Jeff to accept. And in December, he moved into 2357 South 57th Street, a cozy little home in a nice quiet neighborhood with good old grandma Dahmer. And in this home, he quickly settled into a routine. He'd shovel for her, help her with her garden and cleaning.

All while she would cook home cooked meals for him and help take care. He found himself a job. Yeah, it sounds like a nice, you know, to get yourself back up and running. You know, like it's a great third chance, fourth chance at getting your life going again. He even found himself a job at the Milwaukee Blood Plasma Center as a phlebotomist, but found he didn't care for the job all that much. Looking at the job merely as a way to make money and to stop mooching off poor old Catherine Dahmer. At one point, even in the first couple months, he went out and bought a 357 snub-nosed magnum for shooting practice because he did pick up the hobby of shooting in the army. It was one of the only things he enjoyed doing while he's there.

But that unfortunately possession of that gun wouldn't last long, only six months after his grandmother and father had learned that he had a gun and they decided it wasn't such a good idea. For Dahmer to have a gun and they took it and he went unsold it somewhere in Ohio. His father took it and sold it somewhere in Ohio. So, you know, at least they made that correct decision. The months would continue to roll on and his job as a phlebotomist began to give rise to a new curiosity within Dahmer. Drawing blood every day from people mixed with his dark fantasies that were always just simmering under the surface. It's the first time we see Dahmer take interest in tasting human blood. Through the job interview there.

Because he's extremely good at coming off as extremely boring. Like that's just he just could blend in. If you ask anybody who knew him, they all say the same thing like, I never would have guessed. I never would have guessed. Like he was like, I want you to even compare. I just even wanted to compare a picture of Dahmer to Bundy. And Dahmer even is like the epitome of Midwestern guy that nobody really knows. Like Bundy just looked fucking crazy in my, you know,

but I agree, like most serial killers get away because nobody really thinks that it's going to be them. But that's what makes, you know. But how often do you think, oh, well, the person next to me is murdering dozens of people. And then like, right, never, never once have I ever had that thought, you know? And like, I hope that I was right about all of those. Even like the weirdest looking dude. I'm like, that guy's probably going through it. But I'm not like that man is killing and eating people.

He probably has a fucking head in his fridge. Yeah. And so one day the urge and curiosity overtook him. He took a file of blood stuffed it in his pocket and snuck up to the roof of the center that he was working at, took the file of blood and drank it. Quickly realizing that he did not like it very much. The question then because it wasn't a vampire. I mean, that was the urge.

Was it a cannibalistic urge or was it as, you know, one of the things that lead we lead into later, was it a way for him to try and imbibe part of a person in him that couldn't leave, that couldn't go. They'd be part of him forever, which is an excuse that he or I don't want to say maybe it isn't an excuse he uses later when confessing to his crimes and what he did with the bodies. I don't know. But it's the first time we know he takes a step in that direction, where he imbibes bodily fluids from another person.

I just think it didn't even occur to him that it was fucked up. No, yeah. Well, yes and no, like. I think you just tasted it out of curiosity. There's like cultural definitions of fucked up there, right? Because in the past, there have been many layers of imbibing someone else. So like there's both sexual overtones that for many times in history, various cults and religions and worshiping was like, you are now part of me, like that kind of stuff. But even warrior things, like if you go back to various cultures

where they would like eat the heart of their enemy because they like got their power from it. I mean, like it exists in history, only culturally. Now are we like, that's not good. Well, yeah, like so you bring this up a little early. It's a little bit later in the episode, but it's worth talking about. Now is that I'm already like he he did end up getting a book later on that was all about death and the way different cultures handled death. And it wasn't like anything sexual about it.

It wasn't something like maybe I mean, to a normal reader, it wasn't I mean, there are many sexual things about like, but there is most of it's like I ate of you, so I have your soul. Yeah, exactly. And that's like the kind of book he owned was like a academic look at that kind of thing. So you're right, he did have that, I think that thought already. And he went out, you know, to go reinforce it with research and reading that book. Imagine the next episode features you.

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Like, I don't understand how you underperform it. He doesn't have to like bring in customers. Right. I don't exactly. I don't understand how maybe they were just like, that was the reason to get rid of weirdo Dahmer, who was like staring at the blood as it was being drawn from their arms. Very wide drool trickling from his lips. Very well, could be.

Or it could just be like drunk as hell. Yeah, there was absolutely. He was definitely that that as well. So well, then he's probably missing his mark. I've definitely been to a few blood draw things where they're like, we're just trying to find a vein. I'm like, OK, then keep stabbing me. And Dahmer was like, I can never find the vein stabbing them over and over.

I mean, it's possible. But Dahmer didn't really they didn't really phase him that he lost the job because as I know, as I noted earlier, he didn't really even like the job that much in the first place. It was more really because he felt like he had to. Sure. And for the most part, his family saw a Dahmer that was trying to get on the straight and narrow. Nineteen eighty two's Thanksgiving saw himself, his grandmother,

his father and Sherry all come together, seeing Jeff now walking the quote straight and narrow thanks to the influence of his beloved grandmother in the job that he was holding. What they didn't know is that beyond the drinking and the loss of his job, Dahmer had also now started getting in trouble with the police little by little with new terrible behaviors. Two months prior to him being fired, Jeff had been picked up by the Milwaukee police at the Wisconsin State Fair on August 7th for disorderly conduct,

specifically urinating in public. So Dahmer claims. However, the officer who made the arrest made no mention of urination, instead saying, quote, he observed the defendant with his pants pulled down and his penis exposed, leaning against the planter on the south side of the Coliseum in which 25 people, adults and children were exposed to his genitals. So he just fucking was flashing people again without their consent, without their will, that feeling of control.

He was arrested and fined. And this was the first instance of something that soon became a regular offense for Dahmer, forced exhibitionism, sadism in a weird way. In another example that this from from later on, he actually, you know, we'll talk about that when that happens, because it's a little bit later. After Thanksgiving, however, Jeff made an attempt to straighten up, at least so he claimed he spent more time with his grandmother,

went to church with her every week and restricted his masturbation to once a week. So he's only jerking it once a week. So we now know he's always taking control of his libido. Nice. He prayed. He claimed he prayed every day. He gave money to homeless folk and charity in the hopes of like undoing his sins or making amends while reading the Bible to help repress his urges. That point of order just to jump in really quick.

Yeah. Yeah. I look, I've been on the internet long enough to recognize all the signs of like, you know, those those posts you see or like the weird tiktok guys, like I have all the answers. Guys, the reason why no one loves you is you jerk off too much. You don't pray enough. Yeah. Yeah. And you are like, you got to get more fit and read more books.

You're watching those Marvel movies, Star Wars. And do you think this self restrictions made things better or? Clearly worse because he's denying who he is as a person. Well, the whole thing is like, he's the dude who wants to kiss a man. And he's like, if I do, I'll be terrible. So instead of going to kill people like this is you're right. And his fantasies were evolving, which we're going to talk about that in a little bit.

But while overall, this was probably not very good for Dahmer's mental health, because as Jesse points out, he's repressing his true self. This is this does begin a period of, quote unquote, good behavior from Dahmer that would last two whole years and became a key point in the trial as an example of Jeff having the ability to control himself knowing right from wrong. Well, the defendant used it as an example of an epic internal battle that he was having with himself that he ultimately lost. It's Bundy again.

It's the whole like it's the idea of like all of these stories we see. They have a moment, even even our Kentucky cannibal. Everyone has a moment of like maybe this person could lead a normal life. But that is denying who they are. They are they are Bruce waning their Batman. And it is like it sucks because all the person who they are is created so young. And it's because of all the traumas of their youth. And then they spend the rest of their life trying to fight it.

And eventually they give in every single time. And it's by the time they give in, it's so it's so mutated and criminal and cruel. And it reminds me of I was I want to give credit to Radio Lab, but it's probably not true. But I was listening to one of those types of shows. And it was a discussion about people who have heavy, heavy drug use. And I think at the time it was heroin was the discussion. But the idea was if you're a big drug user, let's say you're using heroin

as an example, and you use a lot and then you get help, right? If two years goes by, your body readjusts and resets. But but if you fall off the bandwagon, you don't start over where you started originally, which is like, I've just a little bit. You start where you know it's a full plan. And so suddenly your body that's cleaned itself up, you've now injected with so much drugs, that's why relapses of that nature usually lead to more overdoses and deaths because people like come at it at 110 percent

when they're back from there like, well, I'm off. I'm off drugs. I'm good. And then they that one and this I feel like it's the same thing. Like serial killing is very for a lot of serial killers, they say it's an addiction. It's something they cannot get rid of, which, you know, as I feel like it's that idea of they have cleaned up and they're not going to they're not going to be evil anymore and they're going to be and then they have that one moment. It's like it's done. They're done.

They're completely gone. They've gone over the edge. It's like eating a piece of candy in the middle of the night and just saying it doesn't count. Yeah, you just got to shove as many as you can in your mouth until you feel sated, a.k.a. sick. But, you know, before we move into his two years of good behavior, I think his early patterns of exhibitionism and a forced exposure at a layer

that I think many people like to ignore when looking and talking about Dahmer as a topic, because on the surface, even going back to these interviews from the nineties and later on, they approached Dahmer in almost a pitiable, sympathetic way. Like if only he could have gotten help, if only he had been able to talk about something earlier. And yeah, maybe that's true. If like somebody intervened when he was seven or eight years old or something.

And like I said, it might be truth to that his desire to go further and expose himself, stepping away from his normal habits of wanting somebody unconscious or whatever, but now stepping into a world of conscious sadism is an example of him literally enjoying, I think, the idea of holding power. They can't stop him. They can't like they're being forced to see what he wants them to see in that. He is getting to fulfill that need for control in a different way. This just wasn't that is this aspect of him.

It wasn't just this monster that came out and murdered, but a core part of who he is as a person and one, he regularly leaves out during interviews when speaking about the reasons he is the way he is. He doesn't talk about these aspects of his crimes, only the murders and how hard it was for him to get over all that shit. And Dahmer, while he's one of the few that seem genuinely remorseful in those interviews, only cared about himself and his own safety at the end of the day and his exposure to others is a peek into the actual personality

of Dahmer beneath what he presented. Those two years of good behavior, according to Dahmer, slipped away one day very quickly when he was reading in a local library and when a stranger passed by, dropping a note in his lap. The note simply said, meet me in the second level bathroom. I'll give you a blow job. This note completely baffled Dahmer. He was confused.

He had never been propositioned like this before. He didn't have to work for it or talk to anybody about it. The this this simply fell into his lap quite literally. And for the past couple of years, he says his thoughts were under control with strict religion and being able to keep himself on the straight and narrow. And that night with Stephen Hicks hadn't even crept back into his mind for a long time. But he says this note stirred everything back up in an instant. He told himself it must be a test from God that it would take much more

than this to make him stumble. But as always with killers, no matter how long their cooling off period is, his actual self comes back. This was just his internal rationalizing, allowing it to come back, but not without a fight. Sure, he gave gave up on the rule of masturbating once a week. And instead dove into masturbating four times a day and picking up his pornography addiction again.

God damn, I cannot stress again. This is like the I'm not equating myself to serial killer. But every single time in my entire life, I've been like, you know what, Jesse? We're going to start eating more salads. We're going to work out more. We're going to change. I'm going to change my life. And then like two weeks later, like, I'm going to get a hamburger or screw this shit.

Yeah. Yeah. Four, four times seems like a lot of wasted time. Unless it was very quick. I'm just saying, like my dude, he wasn't doing anything. He was just being an alcohol like he had nothing else to do with stuff to do. Like even an alcoholic's got things to do. This is just speak to the level of obsession.

It's so much time wasted. Like, bro, this is like once is enough. My man, you know, enough for him, man, not for him. The fantasies for Dahmer of owning a body, one that he had complete control over who couldn't say no and never leave, his flooded his thoughts overwhelmingly again. But maybe he thought maybe he could actually keep it under some form of control. His self masturbation eventually gave way to learning about pornographic stores with dirty movies playing in the back room, which also then gave way to the

discovery of what else pornographic shop glory holes, baby, which he actually tried a few times finding the back rooms eventually where men could anonymously meet up and hook up and then go on their day. This is where he would actually have his first actual sexual experience with another man. And while it certainly helped, it wasn't enough to set the urges and the urges continued to assail him, looking for the perfect possession to aid him in his masturbation quest, because that's more about what he wanted the body for. It wasn't about fucking the body.

He never really liked having sex with the unconscious body. He liked to cuddle it and kiss it and jerk up or jerk off over it over and over until they eventually woke up. Yeah, just it's like so much. It's just but but Jeff in 19 one night in 1984 thought he discovered the answer to his issues, the thing that would keep him completely under control. He, while walking down the street one day in a store, saw a mannequin on display with incredible abs in a perfect body.

So he made a decision later that night at 11 p.m. Jeff came back and snuck into the store, bringing along a night. Think of that before things shape like a body. Well, he snuck back into the store, went to the mannequin, undressed the mannequin completely and stuffed him into the large zip up sleeping bag that he had brought with him to make his grand escape. He went outside with this newly stuffed mannequin in his sleeping bag, walked a couple of blocks and called the cab.

A taxi showed up and drew him and his new date back home to his grandma's house. Without I imagine I wanted to ask what was sitting in the sleeping bag. I can only imagine the cabbie. Yeah, it's just like this almost like the office style just like scene where it's just silence and the driver just keeps looking in the rear view mirror and Dahmer is just quietly staring ahead with the zipped up mannequin next to him. Like, are you kidding me? Yeah, he took it home.

Like, I guess he probably carried it. So it's obviously not like a dead man, but like. Yeah, no, yeah, it didn't like he wasn't like, oh, God, I like this body that he was hoisting in. He just when he just brought it home. Jesus. And for a while, this mannequin actually allowed Dahmer to live out his fantasies. He was able to have the object that he wanted who couldn't say no, who didn't

move that he could pose as he wanted, who he could use as that masturbation aid. But since he was living with his grandmother, eventually his grandmother walked into his room, saw what looked like a body under the blankets and discovered that Dahmer had a secret mannequin that was being hid under under the covers in his bed. And when approached about it and asked about it, his answer was something about having bought it for himself, but it became very clear to Dahmer that this mannequin made his grandmother very anxious.

And so Dahmer took it outside, smashed it up, saying in an interview later, quote, it would have been much better if I'd stuck with the mannequins much, much better. Damn. So, you know, like, I wonder, but do you think truly that if he didn't have to smash up the mannequin that the mannequin would have sated him? It's an interesting conversation. It sounds like a might have his sex dolls.

The sex dolls are a thing like a huge industry. They were a thing back then, too, but they're even more so now. And fun fact, actually, there's a I forget where I heard this or read this, but sex doll like companies have regular issues with people buying sex dolls, sex dolls and then return having them returned with stab wounds all over them and being ripped open where like shit is. And there's a, you know, I'm curious if it is actually helping people out there nowadays who do have those urges to play them out in a safer way.

I've said this before and I'm not sure if it was on this podcast, but it must have been, but years and years and years ago, I randomly saw on Twitter, this student at some like actual real college was like, Hey, part of my final is to do a study about robot sex. Anyone who emails me, I'll get you in the study. I need just a bunch of people to be part of this. I was like, sure. So I 100% was like, I'm in mostly for the goose.

Yeah, of course. Like, you know, I was in and they sent me the, the, to the website that was at the university and it was like many questions, but each category, what was fascinating about it and I'll get to the twist is that like, it would ask things like, would you be willing to have sex with a robot? Would you be willing to live with a robot? Would you be willing to have a relationship with a robot? Like if you had a relationship with a robot, would you view it as a person?

Would you want it to have like emotions? Right. What, you know, things that, but then the next section would be like, if you rented a robot, would you be okay with rental robots? Which, right? And it kept like focusing and changing. It was like, would you be okay if a sex bot could look like your dead spouse or a celebrity or someone that you've been into, right?

That kind of thing. And then it was like, would you be okay if it was a child? Would like those kinds of things, right? Whoa. I don't want to know. But it would like get deeper and deeper and deeper. And eventually start asking things like, would you ever hurt a sex robot? Would you ever, and at the end of it, the reveal of the quiz wasn't about whether

you would sleep with a sex bot or what, but it was like, what types of people would have relationships with robots and of those people, how many are doing it? Because there's like a deep seated need in them to hurt people. And things like that. And so the studies that came out of things like that were like, look, there is quantifiable evidence that says if you are someone like a Dahmer or a Bundy or whoever, that having access to non-living things that can simulate that can prevent actual like real problems.

And then, and then what the survey was asking at the very end was like, okay, we talked about how you feel. Then it was like, how would society feel? How do you think society would feel if robot manufacturers made kid robots and said, look, do with them what you want? Yeah. How would society feel? Like those, and it was so crazy because my mind was not prepared to go.

I was ready for a goof. And suddenly I'm in like an existential crisis of like, would society, yeah, like how, what is the right answer to that? The objective obviously is these manufacturers of robots are creating these things so that yeah, to serve purposes that will not affect us, but they will on some level. And that's fascinating stuff. It was a deep dive.

And I was like, whoa, but it connects to this. If there was some way to bring him back from murdering people, would we have society been okay with what the answer would be? Which is like, I think the answer has to be yes. It's just creepy to think about it. Yes. And it sucks because it's going to be uncomfortable to be like, well, he's mutilating a sex doll as he's living out this dark fantasy, but it's

also preventing them from murdering a person. And that goes back then to the idea that they asked in the survey, which I loved, which was what if it had emotions? What if this thing cried as you stabbed it? That's like. Yikes, bro. Right. You would say no.

I would say no. No, they don't. I say no. They don't. They don't. That's the line. It's this weird shifting line of like what our moral values are. For Dahmer, particularly, does he need that?

No. And we're going to get into that. No. But someone may. And that's what I thought was, and that's why I wanted to bring it up because there's a fascinating look at humanity where it's like, that's a, it's a dark place to be and think about. I don't want to say I love being there, but it's a part of

humanity that fascinates me that I like, it just gets his claws into me. And I just want to know why. And that's, that's a great reason. I think true crime never goes away. Because you're never going to know why you will never ever, it will never click in your head and go, that makes sense for me. You're simply grasping at straws and trying to figure out why. And it has that hook.

But with continuing on with Dahmer, he has, he got rid of his mannequin and another step in a rather dangerous direction happens not too long. His brother, David Dahmer, who would be the one to discover the German pornographic magazines in his, in his, in his, in his book, in his suitcase much later on in life, would come to visit his grandmother and Jeff and spend the night at his grandmother's house. And that particular night, Jeff had the urge to try and touch his brother. He had been laying there asleep, unable to move and unwilling.

And while he tried, he quickly discovered that his brother wasn't as sleep as he had, as much sleep as he had hoped. And in the morning, his brother approached him about it and talked to him about it and then was never once brought up ever again. So he did again, kind of make an inappropriate attempt on, on family. It was in 1985 that Jeff eventually discovered what was known as bathhouses, which were essentially clubs with coffee bars, TVs, jacuzzis, a place for other gay men to come socialize in the 60s and 70s.

And on the second floor or another part of these buildings were all these little cubicles that simply had a bed and a nightstand or a shelf where men could go and hook up quietly in privacy without ever being discovered publicly and try to live their lives, which obviously should never have fucking happened in the first place. Fun fact, early in her career, Beth Midler performed at one of these places in New York. Thank you for that little extra little hocus pocus to brand deal. Disney Plus available now.

Check it out. Not a brand deal. The Jeffrey Dahmer episode. Check it out. It's in these places that essentially the way it worked was he'd walk in. People, men would be wearing bath robes and they'd more or less just gesture to each other while drinking coffee and chatting. They wanted to go to the other room and have a good time and then they would go hook up here. He could remain anonymous and try to keep his emotions detached and being a relatively handsome looking guy.

Dahmer got laid. We learned a lot. People wanted to hook up with Jeffrey Dahmer all the time. He quickly discovered, though, that he had a hard time enjoying or even staying erect when the other guy moved or wanted anything in particular. It made him have a hard time staying up. He didn't like it. He much preferred them to stay quiet and, if possible, motionless.

Twice, he ended up noting that he was on the receiving end and he fucking hated it. He simply wanted them to stay still and not move. Slowly, he would begin to train himself to see these people, not as people at all, but objects. And in 1986, he took another small step or, you know, what we call as an allowance as a serial killer, get to get what he wanted. In 1986, Dahmer went for the first time to go see a doctor for sleep issues that he was supposedly having and was given prescription sleeping meds.

They would need to be refilled twice the next month before Dahmer moved to a different doctor for the same prescription, giving him the same excuses to why he needed it. With these medications, Dahmer began to drug those whom he met at the bathhouse in the cubicle, but he would stay at the bathhouse. Within 30 minutes, his victim would be unconscious and he would spend upwards of eight hours in the cubicle alone with this person, living out his fantasies and the privacy of the bathhouse cubicle. It would take eight complaints from people. One complaint.

And nine separate instances before the owners of the bathhouse eventually banned him. You have to keep in mind, I think a lot of the reason they didn't ban him right away is these were really legal, like quiet places that nobody wanted to know. And so, you know, maybe not getting in trouble or, you know, kicking somebody out. That might make a big stink about it was not something they wanted to do. Say somebody to beat his ass. Yeah, man. Eight is a little too many.

And in the ninth one, it was only because the most recent victim had been drugged so heavily that he had to go to the hospital. He almost died from the sleeping meds that he had been given. And he would give upwards of five sleeping pills to his victims, which is why he was blasting through his sleeping pills so fast. Being removed from his first haunting grounds didn't end up stopping Dahmer, of course, as he was in a full spiral mode at this point. Instead, he simply moved to drugging attacks at the Ambassador Hotel,

meeting folk at a bar and inviting them back, saying things like he would occasionally rent a room for a night in hopes of meeting someone fun. And this continued for some time. To Dahmer, he was still keeping the lid tightly in place, holding his darkest urges back by simply drugging them, cuddling with them and then letting them go in the morning when they when they both woke up. But by now, he'd completely left the religious focus that he put on his life and instead is replacing it with hypersexuality.

He had become more argumentative with his grandmother and spent the odd night out at the hotel. His grandmother didn't like him coming home late at night. She considered it non-Christian. So his fantasies continued to morph and form an androgynous muscular physique mixed with the passive nature of a prey animal. That kind of was what he was looking for at this point. They were only fed into while telling himself he was keeping all of his darkest urges controlled.

He continued exposing himself. We know of six instances that he exposed himself without getting into trouble. But one instance finally got him in trouble and caught again. He was at a bridge and two young boys, 11 and 12 were on the other side. Dahmer had his pants around his ankles and was just jerking off in their direction, looking at them. But instead of the kids being afraid, they laughed at him and simply said, Are you having fun over there, mister? And Dahmer simply replied,

I'm certainly having a lot of fun. They kids went to the cops. The cops took him in and finally charged and arrested him again, forcing him into therapy after a small stint in jail. In this therapy, we see another slip of what we call the justice system. He saw multiple. How are they not seeing this? He would go and see these therapists and through the therapy,

the therapists came to the conclusion that Dahmer was far from OK. One doctor even putting at the end after having like interviewed him multiple times that if Dahmer was to release, he would with no doubt without question enter back into similar behavior, if not worse. The way Dahmer would answer their questions was always self-serving and pitiable to himself. And when he would talk about the reasons he would expose himself, they were just throw away answers and would consistently say,

you know, come up as apologetic. He'll never do it again. He promises, you know, he knows he needs help. He would play the card he played for his parents many, many times. I'm going to get help. I know something is wrong. I promise you, I'm going to get on the straight and narrow. But unlike last time where he made a two year attempt,

all of this was simply to get him out of the system. And while the doctors had made had made their own specific conclusions about Dahmer and what they should do with him, the justice system saw no reason to hold him back. He was on good behavior. He had promised to take care of himself. And so Dahmer would once again be released into the world. Now, while Dahmer was kind of kept away for that small time,

he was actually put through a couple of tests like personality tests. One of the things that he was one of the tests talked about his character and the things he said about himself were, Lately, I've begun to feel lonely and empty. Ideas keep turning over and over in my mind and they won't go away. I've become quite discouraged and sad about my life recently. Looking back on my life. I know I have made other suffer as much as I have suffered.

I keep having strange thoughts. I wish I could get rid of this drew obviously a tension of doctors, strange thoughts, ideas. What is he talking about? And then they gave him a second test called the four test, which consisted of completing sentences, which had been left open and ended for Dahmer to fill and Dahmer showed on the whole that he did not take to the he did not take the test very seriously,

but it was illuminating nonetheless to see how many times he had made reference to his father and always saw him as a man working rather than a loving or being a father for him, which we already know because he was working cliche. It's like it's like it's like bad script writing. I would say for the for the examples we have of the sentences that were used. The first one was my father always and he finished with worked hard. Then my earliest memory of my father is when he went to work. When my father came home, I was happy.

When my mother came home, I was watching TV. And he said the only time he ever truly felt any form of sadness or kind of an emotion was when he learned that his dog died, that it died when he was in basic training and he got a letter. He never cried, he said, but he did feel a little blue at the loss of his best friend who had by his side for essentially 11 years. He died at the age of 12. So no, he had him for like nine years before he left for the army.

But again, the test cumulatively pointed to the doctors that there was a self doomed isolation and disconnectedness to the way Dahmer spoke about himself and how he felt about how he felt about where he is in his life right now. But even though they said, quote, Dahmer could become a psychopathic deviant with schizoid tendencies and that his behavior, his deviant behavior will at least continue in some form, if not be exacerbated. Dahmer was once again, let loose into the wild and Dahmer had

completely submitted to this point to his darkest urges, letting go of the reins, any form of restriction and no longer allowing himself to even try and put a lid on his murderous urges. And while he may have been released and seen by the Justice Department is fine, it wouldn't be until Jeff finally was released, found a man by the name Stephen and took a taxi back to the Ambassador Hotel in the early hours of a morning shortly thereafter, only planning on drugging him and you doing his usual MO of playing with him

unconscious and living out his fantasies. But Dahmer only recalls taking the drinks and says if you remember as nothing else, he woke up the next morning and saw that he was lying on top of Stephen Tuomi, his second victim. He immediately saw when he woke up that the man was dead. His head was hanging over the side of the bed as blood trickled from the corner of his mouth. His chest and stomach were deeply bruised and Dahmer quickly realized

that his ribs had been broken. Dahmer had beaten the man to death with his bare fists overnight. While he was unconscious, he panicked, got nauseous and immediately felt the need to quickly do something with the body. According to Jeff, he felt complete shock and simply couldn't believe it, but there lied the body of Jeffrey, his second victim and where we'll pick up next week for part three of Jeffrey Dahmer. Oh, brother.

Told you not as much death this time, but instead a weird just soul death. Yeah, it was just but like more of a look at his weird attempts to self like constraint to there's something in him that knows what he's doing is wrong and there's some piece of him that even if it's not for the right reasons, he is making the attempt to bottle it. But like Jesse and we all said, let's serial killers. It's like an addiction. It's like a drug addiction.

And unless you actually want help and almost none of them do, you know, it's going to come back and going to be worse. So yeah. Next week is a really, really going to be a really, really graphic kind of like difficult episode. I'm not going to be lingering on the kills much like the John Wayne Gacy. We're not going to be lingering on like every single kill.

It's not the point, but just know that next week is going to be the darkest of the episodes and just prepare yourselves for that listeners because, you know, so it's not going to be super easy listening for some people. A bunch of murders in a row. Hey, yeah, pretty much we like Dahmer falls into a spiral and it is fast and violent and again, so fucking weird. We he builds his we see we'll see him build his his like temple,

essentially his his table of like idolatry that he's he worshipped at the bot. Yeah, we'll talk. He did a lot of weird shit, but we're going to go do many so now over on Patreon. Thank you guys so much for the support. Again, we have a live show on October 25th. Shlumanoddiepod.com out in LA.

Please come on down. Alex's big smile with teeth. We'll get some it's taco Tuesday. We'll do a meetup before the show. Anybody come on down and be a good time. We love you and appreciate you. Thank you so much for the support guys and we'll see you next time. Goodbye.

Bye. Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside indulging on our porch one night enjoying ourselves. I needed to go to the bathroom. So I stepped back inside and after a few moments, I hear my wife go holy shit. Get out here. So I quickly dash back outside.

She's looking up at the sky. I look up to and there's a perfect line of dozen lights traveling across the sky. Hey, what's wrong? I just got passed over for that big promotion. They told me I needed a graduate degree. Then you should do what I did and check out the University of Northern Colorado. Who?

The University of Northern Colorado. Their graduate school and extended campus offer over 100 flexible career focused graduate programs online and in person. Really? The University of Northern Colorado? Really? The graduate school and extended campus at the University of Northern Colorado.