Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 181 - The Majestic 12 and the Alien Agenda

Episode Date: December 3, 2022

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As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by the Dennis Rodman and John Claude Van Damme of LA, Alex and Jesse. Yo! I just, okay. That's a good one, right? Definitely know who both of these guys are. Yeah, they were in a movie together. Did you know that? No.

Yeah, a movie. Double team. Okay. It is a movie. It's not a good one. It was pre-universal soldier. Like Van Damme. Did you just Google the word team? Is that what it is? No, no, no, no.

It definitely has a list of like team-ups. It's 100%. Because these some of these go out of nowhere. You believe what you want. I'm not going to confirm or deny. TV tropes duos. That's my guess. TV tropes duos. Unlikely duos.

Unlikely duos. All right, so obviously, obviously I'm the Van Damme of this group. That's not even... I'm definitely Dennis Rodman. If one of us is Dennis Rodman, it's me. Let's just be real. Which one of you is more likely to go to North Korea for peace talks? Me?

Alex. Yeah. I'm that guy that everybody talks to in the bars. Oh my God. Look at that cover. Can you in chat? It's not a good movie. It's not a good movie.

Producer Dean sending a picture of like the cover of that movie and it looks awful. My favorite part is it's Van Damme, Rodman, Roark. Roark. In middle. They don't play by the rules. Double team. Oh my God. Is that a robot in the middle?

I can't even tell, dude. I don't know what that is. Yeah. The font is unreal. Yeah, this is rough. This is a rough one. It's got to be like early 90s with Rodman. It's not a good movie.

It's not good. But here's the thing. I can't imagine it is. Not that I would know, but I can't imagine it is. I need to ask the question if the three of us were in the movie Demolition Man. Yeah. Can you explain a plot to me of Demolition Man? Because I don't know.

All right. First off, this is the next thing we have to watch when you come into town because it's one of my favorite movies ever. Come back to LA or we get back together. Okay. This is a movie where in 19, I think it's 1999. I think 1999 LA, LA is on fire. And it's all because of Wesley Snipes being an evil bad guy.

And they send in, they send in Sylvester Stallone. As he says, send a maniac to catch a maniac. They send him to stop him. And the result is accidentally a bunch of kids get killed. And so what's the movie? What's the video game call? I'm sorry. Where they put Terry Crews in it.

I don't know. Crackdown where the cops are like crazy. Yes. Crackdown three. Crackdown three. Yes. Stallone is a guy from Crackdown three in real life. The reason that he is called the Demolition Man is the reason that he killed all those

kids. It's because he does not care. He's like superhero, but in real life, it's like all about, he doesn't give a fuck if he like fuck shit up. Is he like dirty Harry? No, no, no. No, no, no, no. Like that's just my dude.

That's the first five minutes. Literally he like he manages to stop Wesley Snipes, but he kills a bunch of people on accident. And he and Wesley Snipes are both put in the new form of prison, which is cold storage. And they serve their cells frozen in a little hockey puck of ice for, you know, 50 years away. It doesn't matter. And so Sylvester Stallone wakes up in the future. There's so many problems with that method, by the way.

There's a lot of issues with that. Oh yeah. I mean, well, as he says in the movie, how would they learn any lessons? It would be very instantaneous. Well, no, they put it in their bra. Oh, dude, they put in their brain. Oh, okay. They like one of the things they learn is how to sew like that kind of thing.

There's also Sandra Bullock in the movie who's like a modern day. Yes. Well, Wesley Snipes breaks out, turns out Wesley Snipes while he was in cryo. He was taught how to do like future tech stuff. And Sylvester Stallone was taught how to knit. And so when Wesley Snipes gets out, he's a stone cold super killer in a future where Mathis, everything's peaceful in LA. It's perfect.

It's run by like this utopian government, except, except there's no fast food anymore because Taco Bell won the fast food wars. And there's only Taco Bells, but they're like the only restaurant that exists is like there's a fancy Taco Bell and Taco Bell is like in pill form now. And when you go to the bathroom, you use three seashells and sort of toilet paper. It's like how video games are today. Yeah. But the whole thing's insane.

And then you just throw this crazy psycho killer and then the crazy guy who wants to catch him into this world and they demolition it basically. And it's a wild movie. Sandra Bullock plays a woman from the future who is like obsessed with the 90s for some reason. She's like a nerd. Yeah. She's like, she's like, wow, you guys are from the 90s.

That's so cool. That's like, that's like people now. Yeah. Well, that's cause it takes, I think it takes place now to be honest. I think the future, that future is now. I'm pretty sure. But yeah, I think we're there. It is a bonkers movie.

And so I offer this to y'all listening right now. I'm not going to let these two answer in on Reddit. I need to know which one of us is the demolition man, which one of us is evil. Wesley Snipes and which one of us is Sandra Bullock. Great question. I need everyone to just say that great question. Let us know. You can't put your opinions out there right now.

Cause it'll be there. If something masses will see this movie and have any context for what the fuck we're talking about. I never thought I'd see hunt for red October, but here we are. Also. Also, Mathis, you'll find this very funny. The movie has a group of underground people that are led by Dennis people. Dennis Leary for some reason, these mole people that live underground and they eat

rat burgers and stuff, but they're like, it's good cause it's freedom. Right. Like that kind of thing. It's like a fallout. One of the underground people, 100% pre-famous Jack Black. Wow. Okay. I don't even remember that.

It's wild dude. It's crazy. I don't even remember that. And speaking of movies. That's cool. If you join us on patreon.com slash Chaluminati Pod, not only do you get access to our new show, Rotten Popcorn, way early, tons of movies on there. All the hits, every good movie that Mathis hasn't seen knocked out in a crowd pleasing

and satisfying order. Yeah, baby. Exactly the movies you'd expect. No surprises. No weird movies that Mathis finds on Amazon that he forces us to watch. No movies that I've accidentally bought on Amazon that I never really want to watch and will never watch again. Nothing like that.

All hits. Check it out now on patreon.com slash Chaluminati Pod and today, after this show, I am going to go into the mini-sode, which you get after every episode when you're on Patreon. And I'm going to talk about the 10 best UFO movies of all time, according to Letterboxed. And we're going to see how many of them Mathis has seen. And we're going to yell at him about the ones that he hasn't. Probably none of them, honestly. That's very coincidentally.

Did you already know you were doing this? That article when you came in? That's all just metaphysics, man. That's crazy. Honestly, the past two mini-sodes have been just like regular episodes, like 30 minutes each. They're not even tiny. They're just like regular. Sometimes you just sometimes you just get more with Chaluminati.

And that's what's so great about patreon.com slash Chaluminati Pod, a website which you can visit and get stuff on for yourself and others. We call it like the Chaluminati Guarantee. And you have a spicy name for it. at patreon.com slash Chaluminati Pod Guaranteed. That's it. Fantastic. I could think of no better chill.

I'm so glad that that has become part, integral part of the show. Maybe an episode like 900 will it won't be there anymore. But why did you send me a document in my email with a bunch of markers written all over it? Don't ask questions that I can't get to yet. Boys, boys, boys. We're not going back to true crime yet. I'm not, you know, I want a little bit more of a breather. You know, Dahmer is a heavy topic.

And there's a few things that I have a huge list of topics I'd like to cover. And this one has kind of been same for a very, very long time. It's one of the ones that people have wanted episodes about and one that we've talked about in other episodes as kind of a tangential reference. Today, though, we're not going to be doing tangential references to mystical things. Today, we're finally tackling the topic of Eisenhower meeting with aliens informing the contract that would allow the grace to take us from Earth. Now, Jesse, I know you and I were both looking forward to this.

That was hold on. That was a roller coaster that he was like today. Jesse, we were both waiting for this. Today, we're talking about Eisenhower pause. I was like, Eisenhower talking to aliens pause. I'm like, OK, setting up the contract. I'm like, the roller coaster you took me on was wild there. I can't tell you.

I can't say anything other than I'm a talented man. You know, so I know that sentence by itself about Eisenhower and the aliens taken at face value without context is crazy. Yes, it doesn't make any sense. And in fact, now that sounds good to my ears. And in fact, Eisenhower very likely did not meet with aliens on that night. But the path to that theory, the path to that conspiracy is riddled with muddled truths, cover ups and interesting characters that when all

brought together, create theories like this when Eisenhower does leave his vacation on Air Force One for a singular night in the middle of the night, only to return the next day. This did happen. And Eisenhower was believed by many in that night to go meet with aliens. At first, it was the Nordics and they made an offer that Eisenhower denied, which we'll talk about later. And then he would meet with the Greys after that, where there was an

agreement between the two of them and some form of contract was made. Are you sure he didn't just rendezvous with. Wendy's. Like the restaurant. Yeah, like, you don't think he just popped out middle of the night, pick up a frosty and flew off in Air Force One just to go with Trump? Maybe I would have said they don't have those in Washington, D.C. I don't think you know what I mean?

I think you got to go a little bit further for he was in Washington, D.C. He was on a golfing like a vacation, even more often Palm Springs. He was in Palm Springs as where he was at. So he left Palm Springs in the middle of the night in 1954. Well, again, we'll talk about that in more detail. But that one night, that one weird flight and without true paperwork to actually show where he was is a hotbed for conspiracies to fill in their great greatest fantasies or what they wish was happening behind the scenes year again.

1954, but I will 54, but we're not going to start there. Because to get to that point, you need to know about the Majestic 12. You need to know about the twinning memo. You need to know about who J.L. and Heineck and Stanton Friedman are. And that is where we're going to begin. We're going to begin with Stanton Friedman. That name may sound familiar to you boys because he is a is an author.

You listen to Coast to Coast. Well, yeah, he was a guest on Coast to Coast all the time, but all the time. They bring that man on now. So he's well, they brought him on. Like I listen to old episodes on that new stuff is a little too alt righty for me. But and if the Majestic 12 and Stanton Friedman all sound familiar, that's because way back in the Epis 80s, I think we were doing for the Roswell, the Roswell crash.

And that required some references to Friedman and the Majestic 12. But I said in those episodes, I was like in the 80s. I thought you meant like in the 1980s. I was like, no, yeah, no, I'm with you now. Oh, the the numbered episodes of I didn't finish my thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, I didn't finish my thought. Oh, shit. Oh, God, no.

Roswell was episode 60, 59 and 60. So I was a long time ago. That was over two years ago. We've done Roswell. And so since then, I've promised to do the Majestic 12 to do Eisenhower. And that's what we're going to do. First, we'll start very simply. Stanton Friedman, who he is, why he's important to this entire thing

and how valuable his opinion may or may not be. To be just to give you the bare basics and to remind you of who Friedman was, he was employed for 14 years as a nuclear physicist for companies as General Electric, Aerojet, General Nucleonics, General Motors, Westinghouse, TRW systems and McDonnell Douglas, where he worked. Nucleonics literally sound like fake comic book shit.

Yeah, no, he in all those places, he worked for multiple years from Aero for Aerojet, General Nucleonics. He worked from 1959 to 1963. TRW from 1969 to 1970. And he ended at McDonnell Douglas, where he worked on advanced classified programs on nuclear aircraft, fission, infusion, rockets and compact nuclear power plants for space applications. So that's he is a very intelligent individual

and has a brain at the very least for physics. It's amazing. Yeah, it's that's crazy. It's like Lex Luthor stuff. That's like crazy. It really is. Yeah, he he he actually only died in 2019. He was 84 when he finally passed. He was doing interviews as early as like 2017, 2016.

Still, he was doing interviews pretty recently. Wow. But when the 80s came around, he changed direction a little bit and he consulted for the radon detection industry. Friedman's professional affiliations included the American Nuclear Society, the American Physical Society and the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics and AFTRA. So he was also, you know, working in a more a bigger capacity with nuclear physics and so on.

Well, you can just you look if you were about to say something. No, I just I wanted to make sure that AFTRA was the same AFTRA as in SAG. AFTRA, the American Federation of Television and Radio. That's what it is. Yeah, correct. Yeah, it is important to note that for AFTRA, there's not a lot of evidence that he worked there. However, I don't see why he would lie about working at AFTRA if he worked at all those other places as well.

A sick flex for somebody with his resume to work. Yeah, exactly. It just seemed to come out of like the list of things you listed off that seemed to be like a little tacked on. I was like, really? Yeah, it's kind of it's kind of like out of nowhere. I agree. I wanted to make sure it wasn't like, you know, the Aerospace Federation. Yes, yes, just like Mambla. Yes. It's Ram season, which means it's time to serve with Ram 1500,

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of red rock cliffs and coral pink dunes. In Canab, Utah, your family can experience it all. Delve into uncharted exploration. Try exquisite cuisine. Enjoy exciting events and more as you let imagination go. Go to visit southern Utah dot com to start your adventure. So after he was finished working in McDonnell, Nouglas, where around 1970, he actually completely left full time employment as a physicist

to pursue the scientific investigation of, you guessed it, UFOs. So he jumped ship to go investigate on those. Since then, in the time he's been doing it in the many, many, many, many years, he has given over 600 college lectures, over 100 professional groups or lectures in 50 states, 10 provinces and 19 countries outside the US. Additionally, he worked as a consultant on the topic, published more than 80 UFO related papers and appeared, as Jesse noted, on lots of radio and TV coast to coast.

Like you said, he was on rather often. I wonder why I wonder if that's why he had to join after just like a idea. That's why my thought was to is like, maybe this is why because he needed he started going out more. Yeah, yeah, years ago, I was in a Nintendo commercial for point three seconds. Like, I think I said, like, that's awesome. Like that. And I received. Oh, man, I got to find this. That's exactly what Jack Black did, too, in a commercial.

Yeah. And honestly, I received so many messages about like, you should join SAG. I thought you were going to say you I received so many paychecks off that one commercial. No, no, that didn't happen. But SAG reached out like, you were in a commercial, you like that kind of thing where I feel like maybe because he was on TV shows or whatever, people were like, you should join after it. Like, I guess that makes sense. Like, OK, Stanton Friedman, if you go look up a picture of him,

he sounds like his name implies a huge nerd and he sounds like a nerd as well. His voice is great. I love the man. I love listening to the good nerd. Yeah. Yeah, he's he's awesome. I love the pictures, his pictures out there. He always just looks like he's begrudgingly happy to be there. He doesn't ever look particularly thrilled about anything he's doing. Sure. Like a proper scientist on top of all of those papers that he wrote, the TV and all the other lectures he gave.

He also was in front of Congress twice and rather in front of Congress once for a hearing and appeared twice at the United Nations. This man was respected at the very least on some level for his genius mind. I would I would put this man as a very intelligent man, if not a genius, when it comes to just his specialty. Look at his fucking resume. It's insane. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. However, Friedman did, I guess that go to UFOs and he very much enjoyed investigating

what he would do to deem as flying saucers. And he very much preferred using the word flying saucers and quoting, saying, flying saucers are by definition unidentified flying objects, but very few unidentified flying objects are flying saucers. I am interested in the latter, not the former, to clarify what he meant by UFOs. Oh, so so he's saying kind of the math this aspect. When I sit here and I'm like, yeah, it's unidentified flying objects. It could be anything.

I'm thinking it could be like a secret government testing. And you're over here like aliens, bro. Well, that's what he's saying. He's saying flying saucer. He doesn't care about like the he's not. Yeah, yeah, he's more interested in, like, though things that cannot be described away or right. There's stuff that appears to be aliens approaching it from a very like

rational sort of angle, like he's really unwilling to say things that he doesn't believe are true about the object. The thing is with Friedman and I very much respect Friedman. He's like one of the two biggest names in the UFO world. He is there's no doubt he is a believer for his own reasons. And we'll kind of talk about that a little bit. We'll never really do a Friedman episode,

but he will come up an episode. I never like when an expert is an expert for their own reason, like a believer in the expert on for their own reasons. Sure. The man that I'm most I most enjoy in this world is J. Allen Heineck, who worked on project. He worked on Project Grudge. Forget what Project Grudge was called prior to that. And then eventually Project Blue Book.

And he was hired specifically, specifically to debunk. He did not believe in UFOs. He thought it was all easily explainable. And then after years of working, his opinion slowly changed. And by the end, he's like, no, no, you need. And we're going to talk about him in a minute. But like Friedman is less of somebody that needed to be convinced. He already kind of believed.

So you need to know that about Friedman, where Heineck is somebody who didn't believe and then ended up believing afterward. And they're both important to the story. We'll get into Alan Heineck here in a moment. He dubbed himself Friedman. He dubbed himself the Flying Saucer Physicist. That is what he likes to call himself for one reason or another. Really, his big jumping off point for for the UFOs was Roswell,

one of the books we used as a resource for the Roswell episodes was written by Friedman. He was the first civilian to investigate the Roswell crash. This is he was the first one to ever try to do so. And he supported the hypothesis that the crash was aliens. He believed that the crash was aliens. He doesn't he doesn't think it was anything else. In 1968, he told the committee of the US House of Representatives

that the evidence suggests that Earth is being visited by intelligently controlled extraterrestrial devices. So. Pause. Pause. Please. The evidence suggests what is the evidence? Exactly. Good question. The evidence is the sightings. There are there are again, I can't say the evidence suggests that not then be like, well, so just to because we're not going into super deep.

There are things that he were investigating. Some things did have weird physical evidence. Like there was a UFO landing, supposedly, that happened outside somebody's house right in their backyard. And when he went to inspect, there were three spots where the grass was weirdly burned, but everything else was fine. Little weird things like that. Obviously, we don't have an alien skull or a piece of ship in our hand.

And he doesn't have this. He never got his hands on that either. So we'll get into what he I guess he means by evidence here in a minute. If there was it was you're about to say that I'll suggest these. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. No, no, I was just, you know, I was just reacting to you being like, yeah, I mean, there's evidence. But like, we don't have time to get into the evidence. I'm I'm telling you what he told the committee.

I'm not saying that I get it. You got to say that it's, you know, you're going to see in this episode, all of the alien episodes we've actually done are going to come into coalescence here, they're going to become one. And it's going to be it's important because it's all part of the trail. Friedman also, as we've talked about on the show, believed or stated that he believed that the U.S. UFO sightings were consistent with magnetic magnet.

God, it's a scientific word. Magnet, magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, magnetohydrodynamic propulsion. That's some exciting stuff. Yeah, I'm going to give you a very quick breakdown of what that is. I have a I have a picture of a magnet getting sprayed very hard with a jet of water. That's what I'm imagining. I have a picture of magnetized ground, magnetized vehicle

and it hovering over the magnet ground being pushed by water. Water squirting it along. Well, I love that. The M.H.D. is the study of magnetic properties and behavior of electrical conducting fluids. Examples of such magneto fluids include plasma, liquid metal, salt, water and electrolytes. The word magnet magnetohydrodynamics is derived from magneto,

meaning evil X man villain, hydro, meaning water and dynamics, meaning movement. The field of M.H.D. was initially created by heinous of them. I don't I don't know much about that particular person because he's not important to this, but he he received the Nobel Peace Prize in physics in 1970. So, you know, he's he's good at what he did. Basically, the there's so many equations I can't bother.

I'm going to give you the screenshot of these fucking equations so you can see why we can't explain very well what the fuck this is. Oh, boy. I mean, I. Yeah, all right, already turned off. I was like listening to an audiobook in that's how it felt for me, too. I was like, oh, so just for the record, when you say it can't be explained, you're talking about like I can't explain it to you. OK, I literally cannot explain this.

I literally cannot like break down the equations and what it fucking means other than it has to do with like the resistance and force being able to move via magnetic field as opposed to an engine or like a combustion engine, more or less. And here like the planet, you know, has this apparently in a bunch of other shit. It's all physics that I never got because I didn't get I didn't do physics in high school. OK, I'm sorry. I don't know. Here's here's what I'll say.

If people are curious, you can look it up. But the the thing that we're looking at currently is kind of cut off a little bit. So some, you know, like when you're doing an equation, some of the variables we can't identify because literally it's cut off. Right. There's things on here like what does J or B equal like those kind of things. If you're a math nerd, you'll figure this out easy. It's it's for us. Yeah, it's literally an impossibility. I mean, I have no idea how complicated it is or not, to be honest with you.

It looks like it makes you want to go to sleep immediately. But I don't know, you know, my ass for my elbows. I don't know shit from it. Just so you know, my resource for this is obviously wiki, because I'm not going to get a physics book and try and teach myself. It's just math with letters. That's all I need to know. Yes, exactly. When you hit that point in school where math started

to become letters and not numbers and you were like, what? That's this. All right. So that's that's on you to know. Yeah, there's just it basically it's just about the resistance and be, you know, pushing off one another and kind of moving in that way. But I mentioned that's important because that's still a very prominent theory to how some if UFOs are physical visitors from another planet, which Friedman believes that's where he kind of lied. He believed they were nuts and bolts like,

which is like the term they use in the UFO world, like physical UFOs. This was the way they're moving, which is why they can turn on a dime. They can move under water and come out of the water as easy as it is is for them to be flying through the air. Why they're able to make such hair point turns and move at supersonic speeds without leaving contrails. This is this would be his positive theory as to maybe the technology if they're they're physically here that they're using.

And it makes sense. It's kind of like if they're physical, that's I believe, you know, some some sort of magnetic gravitation movement is the only thing that seems to make sense. But also what the fuck do I know? You know, I am not, again, a scientist in any particular way. I think it's very important to be very, very cavalier about saying that we don't know shit about fuck. Yes, right. I need people to know the only one who has any degree

to do anything is Jesse and it's to interpret dreams. Yeah, not at all true. He is a professional for it. He's accredited. No, of all the things I went to school for that is certainly not it. He says, why won't anybody ever say that I'm certified in this way? Although I did go. I was in a lot of theater classes at one point.

So I'm pretty sure that's roughly the same thing. Shouts to language of of theater and shit like that as a language of theater, like that one on one theater class shutouts to that. Yeah, where they make you like you taste a lemon. Act it out. Like around be a be a box. Yeah, you are a tree. What tree are you and what is the wind?

It's like shut up. I don't. This is stupid. Yeah. Yeah, to continue with Friedman and from 1970 to about night. Well, not about, but till 1996, he very much heavily just worked in the UFO field and kind of devoted his life to trying to figure out what these things are. And if aliens, what are they using for technology? Why are they here?

Why are all sightings have so so much similarity and yet so many differences until 1996, all around in 1996. That's when he began researching the paper I had sent to you boys the Majestic 12 documents. Here we go, baby. Friedman said that there was no substantive grounds for dismissing their authenticity. Now, I will we'll talk about whether that's something worth believing and why. But just know that that was his particular stance on it. And then the early 2000s, he started showing up on coast to coast.

As Jesse said, starting in 04 was his first appearance in Coast to Coast and kind of had a pretty long lineage of history going on coast to coast rather often. It's there that he was also on these things. He also debated Seth Shostak, who was the the senior SETI Institute astronomer. If you don't know, remember what SETI is? It's the people looking for aliens. It's the the researchers looking for aliens that you can like install on your own computer.

Yeah. And while Shostak was a good debate, it's important to know that he also believed in the existence of intelligent life other than humans. But unlike Friedman, he did not believe that they were visiting Earth or were related to the UFO sightings. And that was kind of the crux of their debate. You can go listen to it. It's it's still out there for you to listen to. I would love to hear on what grounds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Friedman also hypothesized that UFOs may originate from relatively sun nearby, sun like stars. I think if we're getting visited by aliens, I think I would agree with that. The further away, the less likely I feel like they could. But then again, we are in the boonies of space. So the further away, the more the longer they've had a chance to live. So maybe maybe it would make sense if they came from deeper into space. I don't know. I'm going to start debating myself about this if I don't continue on.

But he did use a piece of evidence to cite this. And this is something we didn't talk about too, too much. I think we did. We kind of briefly mentioned it. But if you remember the Betty and Barney Hills story in one of Betty's hypnosis sessions, she made a drawing. The drawing that she said was the star map that the alien. Remember, she got like she had a nice talk with the aliens. They showed her a star map.

She brought him into a room. She got filled in like that weird jelly for a while. Like, yeah, yeah. So the reason he points to this is because that map was then shown to astronomer Marjorie Fish, who constructed a three dimensional map of a nearby of nearby sun like stars and claimed a good match would be from the perspective of Zeta reticuli about 39 light years away from us. And you can you can see the map out there.

If you just look it up, I can I can also get it for you. Let me link you to it. But the map itself is the one that she used. So that's the map that she like basically drew. And she mapped to the Zeta reticuli system. And while there is plenty of reason to be very weary of hypnosis and its legitimacy and how useful it is, how easy it is to implant fake memories for those who are easily hypnotized, it's it's what Friedman would would use

it for for that particular that's one of the pieces of evidence he liked to use. And he believed that there was a statistical validity of the match. That was his belief is like this feels like it's right. But he also it's also important to know Friedman and said he hated each other. Friedman particularly did not like said he at all the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Friedman contested the implicit premise of said he that there has been no extraterrestrial visitation of the planet because it was his claim that said he was only seeking signals, not extraterrestrial intelligence or beings.

And what does that mean? I don't know, but we'll continue. He maintained they're like they're like said he doesn't believe in alien. What they're doing is necessarily. Yeah, he was continuing on. He maintained that the prominence in widespread public claims of those involved with said he have tended to present serious research, prevent serious research, sorry, including research by journalists for UFOs.

He's basically saying they're the only one since they're considered legitimate. Everyone else that tries to do any research gets laughed out of the room because, you know, UFOs are not taken seriously. And you think said he is part of the reason of that. Friedman just also was a classmate of Carl Sagan at the University of Chicago. And he also often criticized Sagan, a proponent who was a proponent of said he for ignoring empirical evidence such as, quote, six hundred plus unknowns from the Project Blue Book special report.

The Project Blue Book had over twelve thousand sightings. Over six hundred of them that were left unable to be explained. That's like what was left. Friedman argued that these empirical data directly contradicts Sagan's claim in other worlds, that the, quote, reliable cases of uninteresting and the interesting cases are unreliable. Specifically, Freeman referred to a table in Project Blue Book special report, number 14, that he said, quote, shows that better

shows that the better the quality of the sighting, the more likely it was to be, quote, unknown and less likely it was to be listed as containing, quote, insufficient information. So what he's saying is Project Blue Book did this thing where it was either explained or it was just simply titled insufficient information. So there was never like a confirmation. It was always. And so when they point to the book, of course, there's no empirical anything

because it was either listed as useless or useless. You know, it was there was no no good way to. He believed it was like the wrong way to be labelling. It's very biased. Yeah. And as we talk to when we get to J. Allen High, Nick, we'll see how very biased we'll say they ended up being. Beyond that, just some more of his more public opinions to kind of like wrap him up for now. Is Friedman said of the responses to his talks when people kind of like laughed

him out or like outside and like reported poorly on him, quote, I know that most people are unfamiliar with the several large scale scientific studies because I ask after I show a slide and ask about each one, how many here have read this? Typically, it's only one or two percent. He continued to give an interview to Canadian journalist, Saint John and New Brunswick and caused the attitude of the journalist himself to change because, quote, attendees had had no idea there was so much solid

information as opposed to the tabloid nonsense. They thought was the primary source of UFO data. And he's just saying the shit that gets out there is the shit that is viral, gets picked up and everything that might be a legitimate gets thrown in the trash now, and it's it's it's frustrating for him. I mean, that's that sounds accurate. If I if I was in this space, it seems like even from the outside in, all the you know, that's everything, though, all the like really loud,

potentially cuckoo, bananas, people are the ones who get the most press. They're funnier, you know, they're just more interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Moreover, Stan Freeman, eventually in 88, when kind of your whining, got his hands on something known as the twinning memo, which is very important and a big piece of evidence, UFO enthusiasts like myself like to use that things have been going on since the fifties that people don't really talk about.

Just a shout out to all the Final Fantasy 14 players who right now, when he said the twinning memo, you have a song playing in your head. And I just want to let you know, I have it too. It's there. I don't. Yeah. All right. You're welcome, I guess the music and F 14 is great. So you won't. None of you will know it.

None of you but to my Final Fantasy 14 fans, all of us were like bobbing our heads along to an invisible song. I'm thinking of and and and. But we're not going to talk about the twinning memo yet. We're going to go now over to Jay Alan, Heineck, the last of the two that I want to really lay a foundation as to who this man was and why he is also so important to the world of ufology and aliens and all that good stuff.

You boys, did we talk about Jay Allen, Heineck at all or much in the past? I couldn't tell you for sure. I had so much reading about it was. Yeah, sorry. There's just so many. Like I don't know if it was you who brought it up or not. OK, but you guys know. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. OK, cool. So I won't go like mega deep.

I'll just give some highlights for the audience in case they may not know who he is who knows this might be people's first episode. But Jay Allen, Heineck began his career in World War Two as a civilian scientist at the John Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory, where he helped to develop the United States Navy's radio proximity fuse. So he's working with the military pretty much out the gate. After the war, Heineck returned to the Department of Physics and Astronomy at Ohio State, rising to the full to full professor in 1950.

In 1953, Heineck submitted a report on the fluctuations in the brightness and color of starlight and daylight with an emphasis on daytime observations. And in 1956, he left to join Professor Fred Whipple, Harvard astronomer at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, which had combined the Harvard Observatory at Harvard. And Heineck had the assignment of directing the tracking of an American space satellite, a project for the International Geophysical Year in 1956. And thereafter, so we got to like the track satellites in the fifties.

I wonder I wonder what that was like. It couldn't have been easy. It must have been infuriatingly difficult. I feel like there was like a guy like holding his head like, I see it moving through the sky. In addition to over 200 teams of amateur scientists around the world that were part of Operation Moonwatch, which was basically the science program of tracking the satellites and so on. There were also 12 photographic Baker Nunn stations.

A special camera was devised for the task and a prototype was built and tested and then stripped apart again when on October 4th, 1957, the Soviet Union launched its first satellite, Sputnik One. After completing all of his work in the satellite program, he went back to teaching, taking the position of professor and chairman of the Astronomy Department at Northwestern University in 1960. So again, the man has credentials. He's another very intelligent man in the same kind of scientific field,

but a little bit less gung ho. Like I would like I would say Friedman was like way more passionate about just like he hopped companies and was really working. Sure, this guy seemed like he really enjoyed teaching and kind of looking at the facts of a matter. For Heineck, though, he ended up being pulled in by the government to be part of multiple different projects, watching and studying UFOs in the United States.

In response to numerous reports of flying saucers, the United States Air Force first established project sign in 1948 to examine sightings of unidentified flying objects. Heineck was brought in and contracted to act as a scientific consultant to project sign. He studied UFO reports and decided whether the phenomena described therein suggested known astronomical objects. He was a debunker. When Project Sign hired Heineck, he was very skeptical of UFO reports.

Heineck suspected that they were made by unreliable witnesses or by persons who had misidentified manmade or natural objects. In 1948, Heineck is quoted as saying, quote, The whole subject seems utterly ridiculous and he painted it as a fad that would pass soon. So he really thought, though, that you. Oh, yeah, it was right after the Roswell crash that, you know, he was like, this is just going to be a fad.

It'll be here. It'll be gone like anything else. Sure. It's like my parents talking about Pokemon. Yeah, yes. Yes. In his 1977 book, Heineck said that he enjoyed his role as a debunker for the Air Force. But he also said that debunking was what the Air Force expected of him. In April of 1953, Heineck wrote a report for the Journal of the Optical Society of America titled Unusual Aerial Phenomena.

In my mind, and I think that might be the first use of UAP. Before UAP got reused now, Heineck was calling them that back in the in 53. So he was calling. He wasn't calling. Do you feel like that's to remove the stigma? Well, I think the government definitely did. You mean you mean for him? Like, was he saying he's saying it so that he doesn't have to be thrown in with the UFO?

Yeah. Oh, definitely 1953, especially because he did not believe UFOs were real. He thought this was just a bunch of fucking shit in 1953. But this continued contained one of his best known statements. Ridicule is not part of the scientific method and people should not be taught that it is. The steady flow of reports often made in concert by reliable observers raises questions of scientific obligation and responsibility. Is there any residue that is worthy of scientific attention? Or if there isn't, does not an obligation exist to say to the public,

not in words of open ridicule, but seriously to keep face, to keep faith with the trust, the public places in sciences and scientists. He's saying, stop laughing at this shit. If people are seeing this shit, take it seriously. And if it's happening for years and there's tons and tons and tons of people coming forward, stop ridiculing it. You're not doing anybody any favors. And then anybody who tries to research, it just gets laughed at.

And he makes a point. I mean, this podcast, you know, like it's very easy to laugh at crazy shit. And yeah, a lot of it is fucking crazy. And that's why it's so funny. But he, you know, we are like that because for decades, this has been the attitude the government has taken to UFOs, even when they themselves had secret UFO programs, like that's what's crazy. So in 1953, Heineck was an associate member of the Robertson panel,

which concluded that there was nothing anomalous about UFOs and that a public relations campaign should be undertaken to debunk the subject and reduce public interest. So if you're wondering why UFOs have always been shit on because that was the decision of a panel made in 1953, Heineck would later lament that the Robertson panel had helped make UFOs a disreputable field of study. As a UFO reports continued to be made, some of the testimonies, especially by military pilots and police officers, were deeply puzzling to Heineck. He once said, quote, as a scientist, I must be mindful of the lessons of the past.

All too often, it has happened that matters of great value to science were overlooked because the new phenomenon did not fit the accepted scientific outlook of the time. And I agree with that, too, because how many things got a lay, oh, you know, the world isn't round as flat, you know, even now, like what? Because we don't understand it, we're so willing to make fun of it and ignore it. And that's what makes it so hard to take, you know, UFOs seriously as well. The problem is, if you take everything with that mindset, like there's no distinction between something that's groundbreaking and something that's just, you know,

I can shoot snakes out of my nostrils. But it's something only groundbreaking because we laughed at it for so long that now that we figured it out, it's like, oh, not everything, not everything. But I was like, there's a little baby inside the sun that like laughs at me when you're not looking and I'm eating my custard. Like, let me just. OK, but to say. Sorry, I'm sorry.

High Nick is saying things that have many witnesses and many people are coming forward so we don't understand it. We have an obligation to research it. Not one dude saying there's a baby in the sun. We should research everything. If there's enough of a reason to do so, we shouldn't be laughing at it. And again, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of sightings were happening. And all the while, the government was keeping it secret under their project

Blue Book and publicly shitting on the idea of UFOs and saying, we would never research that shit. In a 1985 interview, what one asked what caused his change of opinion? High Nick reported, responded rather, quote, two things, really. One was the completely negative, the completely negative and unyielding attitude of the Air Force. They wouldn't give UFOs the chance of existing, even if they were flying up and down the street in broad daylight.

Everything had to have an explanation. I began to resent that, even though I basically felt the same way because I still thought they weren't going about it in the right way. You can't assume that everything is black no matter what. Secondly, the caliber of the witnesses began to trouble me. Quite a few instances were reported by military pilots, for example. And I knew them to be fairly well trained. So this is when I first began to think that, well, maybe there was something to all of this.

So, like I said, over the years, his opinion began to change as it went deeper and deeper. High Nick remained with Project Sign after it became Project Grudge. And Project Grudge was then replaced with Project Blue Book in early 1952. And High Nick remained as a scientific consultant for them. Air Force Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, Blue Book's first director, held High Nick in high regard, saying, quote, Dr. High Nick was one of the most impressive scientists I met while working on the UFO project, and I met a good many.

He didn't do two things. He didn't do two things that some of them did. Give you, sorry, give you the answer before he knew the question or immediately begin to expound on his accomplishments in the field of science. He was humble and he did the work first, is really all he's saying. Though High Nick thought Ruppelt was a capable director who steered Project Blue Book in the right direction. Ruppelt headed Blue Book for only a few years.

High Nick was has also stated his opinion that after Ruppelt's departure, Project Blue Book was little more than a public relations exercise. Further noting that little to no research was undertaken using the scientific method. He's saying that they weren't interested in answers. They just wanted to explain it away so they could stop. Stressing out about it more or less. I respect that. I respect that. Yeah. Yeah. I respect respect. Which part?

Just that mindset is like a good approach to the idea of doing this, looking into it. Like that alone is like pretty trustworthy. Yeah, I agree with you. Again, this is kind of why I like High Nick so much, especially compared to Friedman. I love Friedman. But you when somebody jumps into something already believing, you have to kind of keep that in mind. It's like a genuine like if you if I read something that said that,

like that I already believed going in, it's like you're you're out. Like there's no exactly in an academic form, you're out. Right. Yeah. So he left and now he was kind of like, you know, the program was useless. High Nick actually began occasionally disagreeing publicly with the conclusions of Blue Book and by the early 1960s, after about a decade and a half of study, Clark writes, quote, High Nick's apparent turnaround on the UFO question was an open secret only after Blue Book was formally dissolved. Did High Nick speak more openly about his quote unquote turnaround?

High Nick speculated that his personality was a factor in the Air Force keeping him on as a consultant for over two decades. And some other ufologists thought that High Nick was being disingenuous or even duplicitous in his turnaround. Businesses James E. McDonald, for example, wrote to High Nick in 1970, castigating him for what McDonald saw as his lapses and suggested that when evaluated by later generations, retired retired Marine Corps major Donald E. Kehoe would be regarded as a more objective, honest and scientific

ufologist and Kehoe was somebody that fucking hated UFOs and shit on them and never thought anything was like worth researching. In late March in March, 1966 in Dexter, Michigan, two days of mass UFO sightings reported and received significant publicity. After studying the reports, High Nick offered a provisional hypothesis for some of the sightings. And this is where you're going to learn the origin of a very, very, very trotted out excuse and his thoughts on how people took this and ran.

A few of about a hundred witnesses, he said, had mistaken swamp gas for something more spectacular at the press conference where he made his announcement. High Nick repeatedly and strenuously stated that swamp gas was a plausible explanation for only a portion of the Michigan UFO reports and certainly not for UFO reports in general. But much to his chagrin, high Nick's qualifications of his hypothesis were largely overlooked and the term swamp gas was repeated over and over and over and over in the UFO reports and became the meme it is now.

It's just like that, guys. Yeah. It's in men and just when the where it even comes from, he was not. He said, yes, some of them, absolutely, but not all of them. It's so weird to me that of all the things swamp gas was the one they were like, that's it. That's what we're going to be using. It's because it sounds it's because it sounds 1966 as well. Sounds like maybe that had anything to do with it, just like their knowledge on science at the time. I don't know. Sure.

But it's like saying swamp gas is like the word version of going swap, swap, swap gas. Right. But but imagine if someone did that to you. You would be infuriated with the fact of how disrespectful it was. And he was. I understand why people are like, I don't trust. I don't trust them when they talk because if you say swamp gas, that's yeah, that is a womp. Womp. That's offensive. Like it doesn't even take it seriously. Swamp gas.

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career focused graduate programs online and in person. Really? The University of Northern Colorado? Really? The graduate school and extended campus at the University of Northern Colorado. They have been like this since like the 50s. They've always always had this weird public PR of shitting and making fun of it while in the background, putting money towards it. It's so weird. Again, yeah, like you said, no wonder people breed this mistrust because they can't do anything honestly in front of us.

In his reply, dated October 7th, 1968, to a request for scientific recommendations regarding a blue book from Colonel Raymond Sleeper, commander of the USAF Foreign Technology Division. Haydick noted that Blue Book suffered from numerous procedural problems and a lack of resources, which rendered its efforts, quote, totally inadequate. Haydick also noted that one wag had bestowed upon Blue Book the epithet of, quote, society for the explanation of the uninvestigated. That's just like the funny name they decided to give him.

Oh, yeah. He went on later to help found Kufos, which is the center for UFO studies. In November of 1978, Haydick presented a statement on UFOs before the United Nations General Assembly's Assembly's Special Political Committee on behalf of himself. Jacques Valais, if we all remember him from the video movie that that Jesse made us watch. Whoa, not Jesse, Alex. Alex made us watch.

I thought it was Jesse for some reason. It was. No, no, no, no. I've never been more touched. It was too good is the problem. It was like, no, it was a movie about a man going through some stuff. And then they added aliens for some unknown reason. They maybe there was the aliens that added aliens. You ever think about that?

Maybe the speech itself was actually prepared and approved by three separate three separate authors before he was actually able to give the their their speech. And their objective was to initiate a centralized United Nations authority on UFOs, which if it came to be its secret, because I don't think there is one, at least not publicly. The last bits of that, I want to talk about Heineck is some of the quotes that he had and the way he feels about his theories on what these things may be. And they do differ from what Friedman believes that they are. While he was at the Mouffon annual symposium in 1973, held in good old Akron, Ohio.

Heineck first expressed. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm sorry. I had to stop you as an Ohio born and raised. You got to say Akron, Akron, Akron, Ohio, Akron, Ohio. This is where you already believed at this point. Keep that in mind. Heineck first expressed his doubts regarding that extraterrestrial hypothesis, which was once known as the interplanetary or intergalactic hypothesis.

Sorry, was that it was intergalactic? Planetary, planetary. Yes, intergalactic. Was it planetary, intergalactic? OK, all right. You got it. In a speech titled. You tell me too small.

I'm going to take a sip of my coffee. Is that coffee? It is. It's in a color changing cup. Oh, OK. It looked like blood. It looked like you were drinking adrenochrome with the rest of the elite. Maybe I am drinking blood. Yeah, maybe I'm an alien. Maybe I'm a reptilian.

I just need that delicious human blood. So yeah, in this speech, the embarrassment of riches is where he first publicly put out his doubts on extraterrestrials being the reason they are. He was aware that the number of UFO sightings was much higher than was reflected in the project Blue Book Statistics, quote, a few good sightings a year over the world would bolster the extraterrestrial hypothesis. But many thousands every year from remote regions of space into what purpose to scare us by stopping cars and disturbing animals

and puzzling us with their seemingly pointless antics. So he's like, again, you can hear I can hear the frustration in his like writing and like the speech is just like he's annoyed that these aliens aren't doing anything useful like that he can take in like research. They're just being weird. Yeah. In a paper presented to the Joint Symposium of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics in Los Angeles in 1975, he wrote, quote, if you object, I ask you to explain quantitatively,

not qualitatively, the reported phenomena of materialization and dematerialization of shape changes of the noiseless hovering in the Earth's gravitational field. Accelerations that for an appreciable mass require energy sources far beyond present capabilities, even theoretical capabilities, the well-known and often reported E.M. electromagnetic interference effect, the psychic effects on recipients, the including purported telepathic communications. I love that, too.

It's like, do it and don't just do it because you have qualities. You qualify to say no, show me and they can't. In 1977, in the first International UFO Congress in Chicago, Heineck presented his thoughts and his speech, what I really believe about UFOs. I do believe, he said, that the UFO phenomena as a whole is real, but I do not mean necessarily that it's just one thing. We must ask whether the diversity of observed UFOs all spring from the same basic source as as do weather phenomena,

which all originate in the atmosphere or whether they differ as a rain shower differs from a meteor shower, which in turn differs from a cosmic ray shower. I mean, who knows? Like, you're just like, I mean, I understand what he's saying, but I think the specifics are just whatever. Yeah. Sure. He goes, we must not ask simply which hypothesis can explain the most facts, but rather which hypothesis can explain the most puzzling ones.

No, that was kind of like how he believed on it. Regarding hypothesis of like physical aliens and a higher intelligence, or extra dimensional intelligence. Again, this is all in the seventies. He says, quote, there is sufficient evidence to defend both as evidence for the ETI hypothesis, which is the physical aliens, which stands for extraterrestrial intelligence. He mentions the cases involving radar as good as good evidence of something solid,

as well as the cases of physical evidence. Then he turned to defending the EDI hypothesis. In addition to the observations of materialization and dematerialization, he cited that Poltergeist phenomenon experienced by some people after a close encounter, the photographs of UFOs, sometimes only in one frame and not seen by witnesses, the changing of form in front of witnesses, the puzzling question of telepathic communication and close encounters of the third kind.

He's the one that created the first, second, third, fourth kind list, by the way. Sure. Right. The creatures seem to be at home in Earth's gravity and atmosphere, the sudden stillness in the presence of the craft, levitation of cars or people in the development by some of physics of psychic abilities after an encounter. Do we have two aspects of one phenomenon or two different sets of phenomena? So he's he's positing that ghosts, alien, everything, all of this shit might it might all be the same thing.

It might all be the same weird, unexplainable, maybe something scientific, maybe something otherworldly. It's all potentially sprouting from one thing or it's or it's a bunch of different things. It's all coalescing. Exactly. It's it's fascinating. And I, you know, this is I bounce between these theories quite often. I feel like that's more accurate for sure. I think so, too.

It's so poorly defined by the people that witness things like this most of the time that like, you know, the idea that we're immediately pointing to aliens for every single one is like kind of silly, like or even like just the concept that there could be more than one type of alien alone kind of complicates things. Right. Sure. Agreed. He actually introduced one final and third hypothesis. He said, I hold it entirely possible that a technology exists, which encompasses both the physical and the psychic, the material and the mental.

There are stars that you got to remember when he's saying psychic. He doesn't mean like levitation. He's talking about just right. Sure. The material and the mental. There are stars that are millions of years older than the sun. There may be a civilization that is millions of years more advanced than man's. We have gone from Kitty Hawk to the moon in some 70 years, but it's possible that a million year old civilization may know something that we don't.

I hypothesize an M&M technology encompassing the mental and material realms, the psychic realms, so mysterious to us today, may be an ordinary part of advanced technology. And I think that thought process, I think, eventually kind of morphs into the idea of like, what is consciousness? What is or are the aliens physical or mental or dimensional? Right. Yeah. Are they are they using are they using us as an anchor point? Are we is our brain just projecting something and like creating these things?

You know, it could be anything. In in Heineck and Jacques Valet's 1975 book, The Edge of Reality, which I have and it is a fantastic book, Heineck published a stereoscopic photograph of a UFO he took during a flight. We've actually looked at that photo before. According to the book, the object stayed in sight long enough for Heineck to unpack his camera from his luggage and take two exposures. UFO researcher Robert Schieffer writes in the book, psychic vibrations

that Heineck seemed to have forgotten the photographs when he later told the reporter for the globe and mail and mail that he had never seen a UFO. The article states that in all the years he had been looking upward, Heineck has never seen what I would so dearly love to see. Oh, the subject has been so ridiculed that I would never report a UFO, even if I did see one, not without a witness. So he didn't come forward because the only one that saw it and he didn't want to be fucking laughed at.

So he just fucking kept it to himself. Honestly, that's that's that's some real shit right there. That's a tragedy. Yeah, I think I would be in the same if I ever saw one. I mean, now that I'm on this podcast, I would different. Yeah, to you every damn like they came and talked to me, Matt, this. It was a me. Yeah, I'd let you know.

But I can understand my most because the ridicule. If that was, say, a government plan from the beginning to say it's swamp gas and it's so ridiculous that we don't even want to think about it, like that kind of thing to make it ridiculed where people would then be afraid to even say anything for then they would ruin themselves in the public eye. Yeah, it has clearly worked because I agree completely. I was like teacher Jesse still. I would not be out there like I saw an alien everybody that would lose my damn job.

Heineck published the book Close Encounters, which he that's where the scale come from. He published the Close Encounter Scale. He's the one, like I said earlier, he's the one that created it. Do we need me to go refresh over them? Because I can if you want. I know that we want. I know that we went over this once on the show before. So first, basically, the way he measures it is the different types of

where the encounter system comes from. So you have things like the encounters of the first kind, which are like visual sightings of UFOs, seemingly like less than 500 feet away that show an appreciable, angular extension and considerable detail. So little light in the sky doesn't even count as it's not verifiable in any way as anything. It has to be some sort of weird thing like that doesn't make sense. Close Encounter of the second kind is a UFO event in which a physical effect is alleged. This can be interference in the functioning of a vehicle or electronic device.

Animals reacting, a physiological effect such as a paralysis or heat and discomfort in the witness or some physical trace like impressions on the ground, scorched or otherwise affected vegetation or a chemical trace. So there's a lot to meet to even get to a second, a second close encounter of a second kind. A lot has to happen even for that. And then there's close encounters of the third kind, UFO encounters in which an animated entity is present. These include humanoids, robots and humans who seem to be occupants or pilots of a UFO.

So third kind is the up close. You can see somebody through the window shield. You would consider Betty and Barney Hill to have been a third kind encounter even before they stepped on the ship when he saw them in the window. Then it was encountered, considered a third kind. That's already, yeah, that's already more than what we say anyway. Now, a fourth and fifth kind, some people accept it. Some people don't.

It was not part of his original scale. They were added later. And close encounter of the fourth kind is a UFO event in which a human is abducted by the UFO or its occupants. This type was again, this was not included in Heineck's original close encounter scale. And it was Jacques Vallée actually argued in the Journal of Scientific Exploration that the fourth kind should refer to cases when witnesses experienced a transformation of their sense of reality.

So he's more wibbly wobbly with what he thinks a fourth kind thing should be. The reality changes around you. Remember like the kids who went on, we talked about it, where they went on a UFO and he saw people like chopping meat and like doing weird, nonsensical things on the UFO. Yeah, like things that you wouldn't expect to all see happening in the same room. None of it makes sense. Yeah, yeah. He would consider that as well. And then finally is the fifth kind, which is a close encounter of a UFO

event claiming direct communication between the humans and the aliens. So if an alien talks to you with its mouth, with its brain, then you have had a close encounter of the fifth kind. What if? So let's say the aliens, the end of close encounter of the third kind come down. Yeah, door opens, they're like, we're going to trade you kids. But they say we're going to trade you those kids. Is that a fifth kind then?

Yeah, that's all the kind that we're going to trade you those kids. Because you communicated via music. So you communicated. Well, that's like at the end of a fifth kind. That'd be a fifth kind music communication. So that trumps fourth kind. I feel like you have a fifth kind. It's kind of understood that you're also having a fourth, third, second and first encounter.

Are you know what? If it's just talking to you like, hey, what's up? How are you doing? Oh, then you might want to go see a doctor. You might have schizophrenia. You're not seeing anything and you have a voice in your head. So what you're saying is you don't believe in aliens, Mathis. I believe in aliens, but I need to see a fucker.

If I start hearing voices in my head, I'm going to go to a doctor first. Not if I see an alien and then I hear voices in my head, it's an alien. I am so I I haven't heard voices in my head once. So if I hear voices in my head, I'm like, you know, I believe that's aliens 100. I'll be like, OK, that's fine. All right, I'll take it at this point. I'm on faith alone. I'll be like, yes.

Look, I know I'm not crazy. Speaking of speaking of the movie Close Encounters, the third kind. Heineck was the was the consultant for Steven Spielberg on that. Yeah, he consulted Steven Spielberg. That's where the name comes from for the movie. And he made a cameo at the end of the film. He is. Yeah, he absolutely is in the movie. Yes. Yeah, he has cred. He's legit.

He's not embarrassing to be seen with, basically. Exactly. So now that we know who both Stanton Friedman are and J.L. and Heineck are, why they are so important to the UFO world, which hopefully is much clearer to you boys now, we now have to start moving into the world of the muddy and questionable, the dirty path that leads to crazy theories like Einstein talking to Nordics. And that's where the majestic lies. Kidding. That's where the twinning memo comes from.

This is the first thing that they were able to get their hands on. I believe it was Friedman who got his hands on it in the early 80s. You don't know what the twinning memo is. It is a memo that came out from the fifties from a particular general that everybody seemed to respect. We are going to dive into the full memo here and what it actually is. There is this name. Yes, his name was Nathan.

I have it as N. Twining, his name was Nathan Farragut. Twining, that was the man who wrote the the memo. Love Farragut. This was written again in the fifties, 1957, I believe. And let me read you out what the memo was that was kept secret until the FOIA request decades later, brought this all out, brought this whole memo out.

So this is you want if I can link you the actual memo as well, so you can read it with me. I would love to see it. Yes, memo me. Memo me, please. I will memo you, boys. I'm reading this off of Roswellfiles.com. The websites I had to use for this episode are crazy.

Everything from literal government websites to websites that look like they were made on GeoCities. Like it's it's yeah, you should have seen the Bigfoot research. Yeah, yeah, dude, I can imagine. I can't wait to show you. I had to I had a deep deep dive into a website called exo politics.org. All about. Hey, did you guys know? Now, in three days, the Enki return from space to Earth.

What if they do? What day is that in three days? That's Saturday. Yeah, yeah. This was this was written today. So in three days, you think those guys can help fix the elevator in my apartment complexes. I've been walking up seven flights of stairs for the last five days and it's really starting to piss me off.

I'll float your ass upstairs, bro. You think they can help me out? It's been driving me crazy. I got to get the Cummies out of you first, Jesse. And then they'll take you. You know what, if that if that gets me to my apartment without having to like go up that many stairs, I'm fine. It gets five seven flights, dude.

I'll take I'll take a Cummys one or two yummy for seven flights. Let me tell you seven. You do seven flights of that is not just like upstairs up and then back and then up and then back counts as one floor, seven of those. It's ass. We had a power outage and some girl got stuck in there. And rather than wait for the fire department, her boyfriend broke the elevator open.

So you are literally living the Big Bang Theory. The tape is taped up just like that. It's crazy rather than so they had people out to fix it. And apparently the elevators were custom made, so there are no replacement parts. What? Why would you make that? So I have no idea how long it's going to take to get it fixed. And I don't worry.

Jules Verne made your elevator. Now, dude, you can just walk up the stairs every day. You know what? That's the only thing keeping me going is I'm like, it's good for me. I should do this. It's fine. So as I'm going up and my calves hurt and what I'm like on the fifth floor, my calves are aching. And I'm like, it's fine.

You need this. Just keep going. And I every this every day. If I want to go outside, thank God, I don't have a pet. Can you imagine us? Let's get those aliens in there. I hope those aliens show up and help you with your elevator, dude. I hope that's the part you need. Or they can install one of those halo jump pads at the bottom.

I was shocked. Yeah. Yeah. So what is the twinning memo? This is a letter that was sent out from Air Material Commands, AMC, in response to a request from Brigadier General Shulgin. As a result of the opinions expressed by twinning, General Shulgin issued his now famous collection memorandum. We're not going to get into that.

It's a whole worry about that another time. General Twinning requested that investigations be conducted that might shed some light on the recent rash of flying saucer sightings. In response to the Shugen collection memorandum, the Walker memo was sent to see what field offices could find. Some proponents view this letter as proof that the Air Force knows that extraterrestrial UFOs exist. The closest the letter comes to considering alien origin, though,

is an opinion that he writes, which we'll get to. However, the proponents tend to ignore or dismiss as an obvious lie dictated by the super secret Roswell conspiracy, the instruction that his commanders should consider, quote, the lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits, which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects. Basically, there's no physical evidence. He's basically just responding to the chatter.

It seems like based on what I'm this is. Yeah, if you're reading through it already, again, this was sent out in the 50s. This was like right after like I think it was early 50s. It could have been late 40s. It was right after Roswell. Basically, there was a rash of UFO sightings three months before Roswell, then another one two months before Roswell and then Roswell happened. And then this is why the memo came out, because it was just like, what is happening?

Why are so many people seeing these things and why are we getting reports of a crash? As requested by ACS dash ACS dash two, there is a presented there is presented below the considered opinion of this command concerning the so called, quote, flying discs. This opinion is based on interrogation report data furnished by ACS dash two in preliminary studies by personnel of T two and aircraft laboratory engineering division T three. This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air

Institute of Technology, Intelligence T two office, Chief of Engineering Division and the aircraft power plant and propeller laboratories of Engineering Division T three. It is the opinion that a the phenomena is something real and not vision visionary or fictitious be there are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as man made aircraft. See, there is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural

phenomena such as meteors, D, the reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb maneuverability, particularly in role and motion, which must be considered evasive when cited or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar. Len belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically or remotely. E the apparent common descriptions is as follows metallic or light reflecting surface absence of trail, except in a few instances where the object apparently was operating under high performance conditions, circular or

elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top, several reports of well kept formation flights varying from three to nine objects. Even back then they were seeing fleets of lights in the sky like like we do now. Normally no associated sound, except in three instances, a substantial rumbling roar was noted. Level flight speeds normally above 300 knots are estimated. It is possible within the present U.S. knowledge provided extensive detailed development is undertaken to construct

a pilot aircraft, which has the general approximate range of 7000 miles at subsonic speeds. Any development in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time consuming and at the considerable expense of current projects. And therefore, if directed, should be set up independently of existing projects due to consideration, do consideration must be given the following. One, the possibility of these objects are of domestic origin, the product of some high security project not known to ACAS-2 or this command.

Two, the lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits, which would undeniably prove the existence of the subjects. And three, the possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion, possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge. It is recommended that headquarters Army Air Force issue a directive assigning a priority security class classification and code name for a detailed study of this matter to include the preparation of complete sets of all available and pertinent data, which will then be made available to the Army, Navy, Atomic

Energies Commission, JRDB, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Group, NACA and the RAND and NEPA projects for comments and recommendations with a preliminary report to be forwarded within 15 days of receipt of the data and a detailed report thereafter every 30 days as the investigation develops, a complete interchange of data should be affected. Finally, awaiting a specific directive, AMC will continue the investigation within its current resources in order to more closely define the nature of the phenomena detailed as essential elements of information will be formulated

immediately for transmittal through channels. So basically, he's just like, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, yo, here's all the shit that I've been hearing about. We're going to actually do our due diligence to look into this and come up with an answer. Here's the things that we think. Tell me how this is any different Mathis than the report that we just got. It is a very evident two ago.

It is the same thing from the fucking 1954 to right now. The only difference is there's people in there that are actually leaking videos finally, like government videos. Yes. Well, yeah, now we got cell phones. I will say if you want to get deep dive on the Jesse side of things, the Skeptical Enquirer online, SkepticalEnquirer, SkepticalEnquirer.org has a fantastic article about twining and it's called General Nathan F. Twining and the flying disc problem of 1947.

And it's incredibly interesting because it does admit that he confirmed via letter that there's something and we don't know what it is. But then it goes like deep dives into what could it have possibly been. And more importantly, what was the response of the government to this kind of thing? And I just want to like I will say if you ever wanted to convince me that UFOs were not of this earth, this skeptical thing, even though it's for skeptics, almost does it because the part where it says the secret US flying saucer program. It says that Twining wrote in the late 1940s, a rivalry between the US Air Force

and the Navy over appropriations and how they decided that all funding needed to go to the B-36 bomber because as they're dealing with World War Two and then the Cold War, because it's real, like there's like real threats. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, basically we're going to put money into the bomber and we're going to start focusing on atomic weaponry, nuclear arms and stuff. And we're not getting you. It's deterrent things.

We're going to put all of our money into that. And so Twining wrote up through 1960 strategic deterrence was the real teeth in the policy of containment, strategic deterrence until the advent of ballistic missiles meant only one thing. The US strategic command bombers, tankers for military fueling and training crews. Basically, we need to have nukes and be ready to use nukes. And so everything we do is about nukes. Yep. And it continues to go on to say, like, you know, we're talking about nuclear energy.

We're talking about reliance on weapons of that variety. We're talking about, you know, placing them around the world. We're doing all this stuff. If America had UFO tech at that time, surely our money would have gone into that instead of these things. Yeah, that's exactly correct. And I think that's and usually we sit here and I'm like, well, it could have been a secret program or this, this, but this is literally saying

like we were making bombers. We were already working on shit. We were working on the things would protect us the best. And, you know, it very became very good. Like spy planes, like you two things, like that they weren't working all that well. And so we deterrence was our entire like, we are going to sit here with nukes and be like, play us, let's go, let's do this thing. You want to fight?

And I think that says a lot about. I agree. And, you know, then the even article has about, I guess, so for a Soviet flying space program or like things like that. It's super interesting. And so I'll just put that out there as if you want to deep dive you more. You should. It's fast because I see this.

And even though they're trying to be like, it's not even. It's not even alien. So, bro, if you were going to hit me with the government wants nothing to do with this because they got other shit to do, to me, that says, oh, maybe it isn't a U.S. government thing because they were, like you said, working on their own thing could just be a rich guy. It really could. You really could.

It really sucks, but it could. The last bit you need to know about twining is in when in 1953, when Hoyt Vandenberg retired, twining got appointed by President Eisenhower to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So he was brought on later on by Eisenhower. And during his term as chairman, twining oversaw the early stages of the space race and boost the space program due to the Soviet launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile on the 25th of August of 1957.

In less than two months later, successfully launched Sputnik in orbit. Twining also supported President Eisenhower's new look policy that turns the military capability from conventional military capability into a modern military capability by pushing the research and development for science and technology, especially on the weapons program, which then as Jesse was bringing up, leads directly into him helping develop the ICBMs, Titan and Atlas missiles and all that stuff. Yeah. He was very much involved in all of the stuff you were just talking about.

He was he was the chairman. He was like sat and had real power. But this is honestly this this memo is the first seed that I think creates the distrust because this comes out decades later. And there's really not like it's like you said, it's vague, but still pretty convincing because there's clearly believe something's going on. But up to the point by the time this came out, the US government has or has been shitting on UFOs for decades at this point, and they were not going to pay

any attention and it kind of just came and went. It didn't really make a splash. No one seems, you know, no one really mattered all that much. The next thing we're going to jump to is actually Project Blue Book. We're not going to dive into the specifics of Project Blue Book, just a small piece of it. This is coming off of archives.gov. This is directly from the government. So I'm not, you know, making anything up in terms of like how like what this all says.

This is a well established thing, Project Blue Book. This is not like 100 percent fringe. This is a real definite thing that happened in the 50s and 60s, for sure. Yes, it is 100 percent real. And then then they when they closed it, they denied having another program. We learned later on that they had another program and then they closed that. We only learned after they closed it. Remember like it was like the early 2010s, I think we learned about it.

Yeah. And then they started another one. But it was more public the third time around, at least. So I want you to keep that in mind when I read you the government's official like stance on all of this. So this is the under titled UFOs and Project Blue Book. On December 17, 1969, the secretary of the Air Force announced the termination of Project Blue Book, the Air Force program for the investigation of UFOs. From 1947 to 1969, a total of twelve thousand six hundred and eighteen

sightings were reported to Project Blue Book. Of these seven hundred and one remain, quote, unidentified. The project was headquartered at Wright Patterson Air Force Base, whose personnel no longer receive document or investigate UFO reports. The decision to discontinue UFO investigations was based on an evaluation of a report prepared by the University of Colorado entitled, quote, Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects, a review of the University of Colorado's report by the National Academy of Sciences, past UFO studies

and Air Force experience investigating UFOs during the 40s, 50s and 60s. Now, keep in mind, as we have already learned, the Project Blue Book was underfunded and wasn't taken very seriously. And they're using this as their their reasoning. And last for a pretty fucking long time, though, considering. Yeah, yeah, for being useless. It lasted a long ass time, almost 20 years. So over 20 years, sorry, which is nuts.

As a result, as a result of these investigations and studies, an experienced game from investigating UFO reports since 1948, the conclusions of Project Blue Book are one, no UFO reported, investigated and evaluated by the Air Force has ever given any indication of threat to our national security. We already know that's a lie, because it's all they fucking talk about now. It's all they talk about is these things are a threat to national security. Once they once UFOs became common knowledge, they pivoted. And now they're well, it's just politicizable.

It's like it's like you can just say it's scary. So you say, oh, maybe it's the Chinese and then everybody wants to give you money for the military. Oh, sure. Yeah. Two, there has been no evidence submitted, submitted to or discovered by the Air Force that sightings were categorized as, quote, unidentified, represented technological developments or principles beyond the range of present day scientific knowledge. That's also a lie, as the man who ran Blue Book said himself, like,

that we know that that's not true. And this is still up. This is like on their website now. Three, there has been no evidence indicating that sightings categorized as, quote, unidentified are extraterrestrial vehicles. I mean, that's that's fine. That's true. Well, there's like no physical evidence that we have with the termination

of Project Blue Book, the Air Force regulations establishing and controlling the program for investigating and analyzing UFOs were rescinded. Documentation regarding the former Blue Book investigation has been permanently transferred to the military reference branch, National Archives and Records Administration in Washington, D.C., and is available for public review and analysis. Since Project Blue Book was closed, nothing has happened to indicate that the Air Force ought to resume investigating UFOs. We know that that's not true because they came out in like 2010 and said we had

another project. Like, why is it still on the government website? It's a lie. It could be. It could be totally different agencies. I guess so. Yeah, the government's huge, dude. That's true.

Sure. I guess maybe technically, maybe it wasn't like the Air Force is investigating them anymore. I have to look into the other one. There are a number of universities and professional scientific organizations, such as the American Association for Advancement of Science, which have considered UFO phenomena during periodic meetings and seminars. In addition, a list of private organizations interested in aerial phenomena may be found in Gale's Encyclopedia of Associations, Edition 8.

Such timely review of the situation by private groups ensures that sound evidence will not be overlooked by the scientific community. A person calling the base reporter UFO is you have advised to contact a private or professional organization, as mentioned above, or to contact local law enforcement agency if the caller feels his or her public safety is endangered. Periodically, it is erroneously stated that the remains of extraterrestrial visitors are or have been stored at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. There are not now nor have ever been any extraterrestrial visitors or equipment

down Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. So that's just the government stance of the Project Blue Book from 1985. That was like what they put out. And we all know that that was out. We now know that that was a lie. In this, we learn of the Majestic 12. And here we take yet another step into the world of muddy lies or fabrications if you truly believe that.

Now, a reminder, Friedman believed that there was no reason to dismiss the documents of the Majestic 12, which I have sent you, boys. So you can look at that. You can see this written on handwriting bogus over everything. If you scroll, that is that was what they they were doing over there. Just kind of like, no, it's really not that much info for how many pages it is. But it is not. Yeah, it's really not much there. Basically, the gist of it is in 1988, Friedman was I mean, 1996, rather.

Friedman got his hands on the Majestic 12 papers and he began to research it very heavily. It was handed to him by an unnamed individual that he had to then like watch and like, it's like a whole thing. It was like a secret handoff. The guy refused to give him his name when he got when he started realizing what he looked at. And it was like what he thought he realized he had, like actual government papers. Then he started diving deep.

He really wanted to figure out what the hell this thing, these things were. For those who don't know, Majestic 12, also known as MJ 12, for short, is an organization that appears in lots of viewophology all over the place from conspiracy theories all the way to serious theories as to what's going on. The organization is claimed to be a code name of an alleged secret committee of scientists, military leaders and government officials formed in 1947 by executive order by none other than President Harry S. Truman to facilitate recovery and investigation of alien spacecraft.

So that's where Truman was Truman known as like an alien guy. I don't really know much about Truman as a president. Truman, no, as far as I know. But Truman was pretty like, look, I've been there. I've seen that there's some watch out, y'all. Watch out for government stuff. Watch out for this and that. Like he was basically this.

This the first time the Jackson stick 12 is known to a pop up as 84. It was being passed around and like really niche UFO circles at the time as people are doing their research. And once it started spreading enough, that's when Friedman was able to get his hands on it and he started diving deep into it. Even the it was even sent to the FBI to be brought to be invested to look at, which is obviously how we got it. And the FBI obviously declared the documents to be totally bogus.

And many ufologists consider them to actually just be an elaborate hoax. The Majestic 12 remains still like even if a lot of people believe it's a hoax, it's still like one of the biggest theories that people just kind of hold onto. And I think a lot of that too is because Friedman wasn't willing to fully dismiss these things as as fake. The way this all came about is on May 31st of 1987, it was widely reported that British ufologist Timothy Good claimed to be in possession of 1950s era UFO documents.

The documents purported to reveal a secret committee of 12 supposedly authorized by United States President Truman in 1952 and explain how the crash of an alien spacecraft at Roswell in July of 47 had been concealed, how the recovered alien technology could be exploited and how the United States should engage within extraterrestrial life in the future. According to researchers, ufologist Jamie Shandira had in 1984 received an envelope containing film, which when developed showed images of eight pages of documents that appeared to be briefing papers

describing Operation Majestic 12. That's what we're looking at right now. That's what that's how they got their hands on it. It was like on it was pictures of them. The concept of the Majestic 12 came out during the period of the 80s when ufologists believe there had been a cover up of the Roswell infant, which we covered in great detail back in the early episodes and speculated that some secretive upper tier in the US government was responsible.

And you can see that that first leap, that assumption that there's somebody higher up running it is the first step people make the first mistake people make when they start trying to like figure out the truth. They start filling it in with their own theories. And it just kind of it just catches fire without even doing research onto how legitimate these documents are. They're immediately like, oh, these look real. And it can be it can be it can undo your entire argument,

even if you have a little bit of a point to make. If you just go all in without doing the work, it's not it doesn't matter. It doesn't it doesn't matter anymore. Shandira and his ufologist colleague, Stanton Friedman and Bill Moore, say they later received a series of anonymous messages that led them to find what has been called the Cutler twining memo. So that's how they got their hands on the twining memo. In 1985, while searching declassified files in the National Archives,

purporting to be written by President Eisenhower's assistant, Robert Cutler, to General Nathan F. Twining and containing a reference to Majestic 12. The memo is widely held to be a forgery, likely planted as a hoax. Historian Robert Goldberg wrote that the ufologist came to believe the story, despite the documents being obviously planted to bolster the legitimacy of the briefing papers based on what, though? Like, how do we know that?

Know what? Sorry. How do we know that it was planted? We believe it to be a hoax that it's not fake. We're going to get into the details of why they don't think these are real. Don't worry. There's there's actual physical reasons why there is doubt that these are actually real. But if they are a hoax, which I think they may be, I'm more I'm more lean to the belief that they are hoaxes. They're very well done hoaxes.

There was little mistakes that maybe gave it away, but it's still very well done. It looks real and, yeah. Claiming to be connected to the United States Air Force Office of Special Investigations, a man named Richard Dottie told filmmaker Linda Moulton Howe that the Mj 12 story was true and showed how unspecified documents purporting to prove the existence of small gray humanoid aliens originating from where else? The Zeta reticuli star system that we were talking about

Betty and Barney Hill and all that stuff. That's crazy. Yeah. Dottie reportedly promised to supply Howe with film footage of UFOs and an interview with an alien being, although no footage ever materialized. Soon, distrust and suspicion led to disagreements within the UFO Uefology community, which is tales all this time. The people who you re-affield people hate other UFO people. They can't fucking work together.

They're just a splintered group of angry, separated nerds. And that's why they can't fucking come together and figure this shit out. Got him. Sorry. I mean, look, I mean, what? A couple of years ago, we learned that the head of Mufon at the time was a fucking like child diddler. So like, you can't even trust like trust that shit. Like, Jesus Christ, man.

So, yeah, it was contract together and more was accused of taking part in an elaborate hook, elaborate hoax, while other ufologists and debunkers such as Philip K. Glass were accused of being disinformation agents. Classes investigation of the Mj 12 documents found that Robert Cutler was actually out of the country on the date that he supposedly wrote the Cutler Twining Memo and that the Truman signature was, quote, a pasted on photocopy of a genuine signature, including accidental scratch marks from a memo that Truman wrote to

Venever Bush on October 1st, 1947. Don't just obviously a hoax. It's not even a question. I mean, yeah, basically, like, we'll we'll go through the rest of this here and we'll talk about it in a second. Class dismissed theories that the documents were part of a disinformation campaign as ridiculous, saying they contained numerous flaws that could never fool Soviet or Chinese intelligence.

Other discrepancies noted by class included the use of a distinctive date format that matched one of that. That matched one used in Moore's personal letters and a conversation reported by Brad Sparks in which Moore confided that he was contemplating, creating and releasing some hoax top secret documents in hopes that such bogus documents would encourage former military intelligence officials who knew about the government's alleged UFO cover up to break their oaths of secrecy. So he's like the worst kind of hoax, like the well intentioned hoax,

somebody who believes so much that they that this all the stuff exists. But nobody will talk about it. So he's trying to break the ice. Supervillain origin story. Yeah, sort of. But he never really becomes a supervillain. He just starts creating a meal. Well, if like Superman came in like punch him in the face when he did it.

Like I can like as a kid, you know, like a little white lie to try and sell to my mom. I wasn't in trouble or something like something to just like bolster others to come forward. Like I get it. The problem is that with science. So you immediately invalidate your entire reputation. This alone cast doubt on Friedman, on Stanton, on even more. So that already is because now they have something to point to that looks like a legitimate document.

See, even government documents can be faked. Nothing can be believed. Like it's all lies. Sure. Later in 1960, later in 1996, a document called the MJ 12 step special operations manual circulated among other ufologists, which is also widely considered to be a fake and a continuation of the MJ 12 myth. We're not even going to bother looking at that as no bearing on the story

we're talking about now. Just know that later on there was more to try and bolster whatever it is was happening. Ufologists Linda Moulton Howe and Stanton T. Friedman believed the MJ 12 documents to be authentic. Friedman examined the documents and argued that the United States government has conspired to cover up knowledge of crashed extraterrestrial spacecraft.

According to journalist Howard Blum, the name Majestic 12 had been prefigured in the you the UFO community. When Bill Moore asked National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt in 1982 to collaborate on a novel called Magic 12, M-A-G-I-K-12. The Majestic 12. He's just like, I'm just going to tweak the name ever so slightly. No one will have a figure. Because of this, Blum writes Pratt have always been inclined to think

the Majestic 12 documents are a hoax. Scientific skeptic author Brian Dunning investigated the history of the subject and reported his findings in the 2016 Skeptoid podcast episode, quote, the secret history of the Majestic 12. He cited UFO just Bill Moore's suspicion that rather than a hoax perpetrated by the UFO community, the papers were actually part of a disinformation campaign of the US government meant to deflect attention from secret Air Force projects.

And again, interesting. Now that's going to even more fuel the fire of conspiracies. That's like the Descartes version of like conspiracy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like maybe the conspiracy is in itself a conspiracy. Maybe the fake conspiracy is all part of the conspiracy. This all feels like it's building to the end of watching it. Yeah, like the movie. I've seen both.

I mean, I read it. I read the book. Yeah, the comic book. I mean, I see I've done all of it. For the most part, the end is roughly the same. You know what I mean? So it like it's building to that kind of thing, which, by the way, if they were going to do some alien things, why wouldn't they do that?

Where it's like, we're going to do some messed up stuff to unite everyone. The endings are not roughly the same. Yeah, they are. Yeah, they are. So you see, Jesse, you're talking about something. You are talking about something that already exists. And it's called Project Blue Light, which is the grand conspiracy that the US is going to stage an alien, either attack or landing and use that as a way to land 100 percent.

Yes, Project Blue Light. However, that theory comes from a known conspiracy theorist and it should not be believed. Well, of course. Yeah. No, no, I believe that's all bullshit. Elon Musk. I believe that's nonsense. By the way, Elon Musk's bedside dude had a gun, literal, literal Deus Ex gun.

And I just want you to know I'm as a Deus Ex fan. That motherfucker is a giant ass loser. All right, anyway, that's a pre-order bonus for some shit. I went from not as a fan of that game. I look at you with disgust. But no, I like if you were going to do this, what would you grant? Like what's the grand plan at the end?

Right. Like if you what is the point? The idea that the idea that you could unify all of humanity under some you would not or or predict any sort of outcome. The only thing I can think of is like some sort of military. Basically, what we're saying already and what we're using these alien attacks for already are alien attacks, sightings for already. There is literally 30 percent of this country who have an alien showed up would be like, damn it.

And that was like nothing would be united. Nothing would be it would be terrible. It's already out there. Like that conversation has already been happening for years in those who are now like you oppose it. Like you can't trust if they're aliens, they're demons. OK, don't trust them. That would be awful. Is that promotion just out of reach?

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Their graduate school and extended campus offer over 100 flexible, career focused, graduate programs, online and in person. Really? The University of Northern Colorado. Really? The graduate school and extended campus at the University of Northern Colorado. Let's give you boys who the members of the MJ12 were. First up was Lloyd Berkner,

who is an American physicist and engineer. Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan. They're all real people. They all exist and these are not fake people. Detlef Bronk, who was a prominent American scientist, educator and administrator is credited with establishing biophysics as a recognized discipline. Also has the coolest name in science.

Yeah, I guess so. Then there's Vannevar Bush, who was an American engineer, inventor and science administrator who during World War Two headed the U.S. Office of Scientific Research and Development through which almost all wartime military R&D was carried out, including development, including important developments in radar and the initiation and early administration

of the Manhattan Project. Then there is James Forestel, who was the last cabinet level United States Secretary of the Navy and the first United States Secretary of Defense. Gordon Gray, who was a politician. He was in the American. He was an American attorney and government official

during the administration of Truman and Eisenhower, associated with defense and national security. Roscoe Hillen-Cotter, who was the third director of the post World War Two U.S. Central Intelligence Group and the third director of Central Intelligence and the first director of the Central Intelligence Agency created by the National Security Act. Wow, that was very, very involved.

And in this guy knew some stuff. And by the way, definitely was involved in in K-Ultra. Jerome Clark, Hunsaker. K-Ultra, Hunsaker. Yeah, H-U-N-S-A-K-E-E-R. That's what Mulan is. He was an American naval officer and aeronautical engineer and educated at the U.S. Naval Academy

in the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. His work with Gustave Eiffel outside of Paris led to the first wind tunnel in the U.S. This is the wind tunnel, man. Yes, he's part of MJ-12. Amazing. Donald Howard Menzel was the one of the first theoretical astronomers and astrophysicists

in the United States. He discovered the physical properties of the solar chromosphere, the chemistry of stars. I didn't even know there was a chromosphere. Me either, you know, until I did this episode. The atmosphere of Mars and the nature of gaseous nebulae. And there's Robert Miller Montog, who was a lieutenant general in the Army.

He achieved prominence as the deputy commander of Fort Bliss, Texas, and commander of the Sandia Missile Base in New Mexico during the start of modern-day ufology and head of the U.S. Caribbean Command. Then there's Sidney Sowers, who was an American admiral and intelligence comic-book expert.

I know. Rear Admiral Sowers was appointed as the first director of central intelligence on January 23rd, 1946 by Truman, where he would be in charge of the CIG. So another, you know, central intelligence guy. Right. And none other than Nathan F. Twining.

Well, he was, we've already talked about him a little bit from Monroe Wintz-Conson. He was the Air Force General. He's a T-maven. Yeah. He was the third chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He was the Joint Chief of Staff. Like, these are big.

I know. Even the government people, these are huge people. If there's a secret government cabal of people, it would be these people like this at least. Which, by the way, which, by the way, just like when you see a crazy person talk about, like, the deep state and the secret cabals, and like, you don't need to go that deep to find,

like, they're doing it out in the open. They got groups of the top people in the world together all the time. Like, secret stuff, like they're plotting. It doesn't need to be secret for it to be like, smart, world-shaking people working together all the time. All the time, yeah. Yes, correct.

How come mine says that there's also Henry Jones Jr. in the Middle Eastern film? Ha ha ha ha. Actually, he was named after the dog. So, right. You named the dog Indiana. Henry. I don't even remember.

That was just all the lines from that movie in one line. I have seen that movie. I love that movie. You have. Patreon.com. A little bit about his career. Just tell you, and how impressive of a guy this twining was. He was, like I said, he was the third member,

the third chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He was the first member of the Air Force to serve as chairman. Twining was a distinguished, quote unquote, Mustang officer, rising from private to four-star general and appointed the highest post in the United States armed forces in the course of his 45-year career. Let me just, like, real quick, just for, like,

everyone out there. Going from private to four-star general is, I don't even want to say relatively hard. It's almost close to impossible. Yeah, I ain't. Crazy. Like, that is distinguished. Talking to, like, my friends who were,

who were, like, he was a Marine is, like, you become an officer by going to school and going to college and then joining as an officer. You don't join as a private. Right. No, that's non-commissioned. Like, this is crazy stuff. Yeah.

Going private to four-star general, that's work. Yeah. That's, he was crazy. He was good at what he did. And I will say, if you look up his picture, dude looks like Johnny Military Man. He looks exactly like you would imagine.

Yeah. A G-man. The final member of the Majestic 12 was Hoyt Vandenberg. He served as the second chief of staff of the Air Force and the second director of Central Intelligence. During World War II, Vandenberg was the commanding general of the 9th Air Force, a tactical Air Force in England and in France, supporting the Army from August 1944

until V.E. Day, Vandenberg's space force base on the central coast of California is named after him. So there's your Majestic 12. Those are your Majestic 12 sitting around a table. The original Super Realty. Secretly talking about, do you guys see House of the Dragon putting down their marble circle and talking secretly? I didn't, but I did see Dr. Strange

in the Multiverse of Madness. So I get it. I get what the deal is. The Illuminati, exactly. Same thing. If you don't, you didn't know this was Majestic 12, but you thought you've known the name Majestic 12 before. There's like a movie out there.

Majestic 12 is in Deus Ex as an organization. It's a team of American superheroes from the Zach Bell anime. Hell yeah. I had no idea. Zach Bell. And he's also in Super Space Invaders 91. The arcade game was called Majestic 12,

the Space Invaders part four. That was the arcade name. So, you know, it got taken and run with the air. Hold on. You're gonna look it up. The arcade game. Arcade game you damn well know I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is so funny. The Majestic 12 game by Taito is literally just a, you know. It's Super Space Invaders 91. It has the sickest fucking poster ever. Yeah. Kennedy would be mortified, it says. Dude, hell yeah.

Yeah. So, you know, Majestic 12, been around a little bit. Now, what does the Majestic 12 have to do with Eisenhower and all this stuff? Well, that's where we start moving into further conspiracy. The theory or the story goes or whoever, if you believe this is true,

what ended up happening is after Truman's time in office came to a close, he hadn't finished going through the paperwork and trying to, you know, the Majestic 12 and like this big, basically this big pile of top secret papers was then handed off to Eisenhower. Sure. Where he then became in charge of the Majestic 12

and there in the next steps of the UFO conspiracy kind of take root. And keep in mind, like, while Truman had a lot to say about government and things, Eisenhower literally was Johnny, beware the military industrial complex. Like that was his, and he was the big military hero and he's like, watch out for these people.

So like, you know, this is who has it now. Yep, correct. So in 1953, President Harry Truman gave up the Oval Office and passed the reigns of power to his successor, President Eisenhower. It appeared that Truman also gave Ike a pretty hefty file concerning a top secret project called Majestic 12 that Truman established by a classified executive order

as we talked about a little earlier. Majestic 12 consisted of a group of scientists, military personnel and government professionals who all worked together to understand and communicate with UFOs and extraterrestrials. President Eisenhower was extremely interested in UFOs and ETs. There's evidence that he apparently,

the evidence is, and I say evidence with heavy air quotes that you can't see, is that he met with extraterrestrials no less than three times. Once at Edwards Air Force Base in California, and twice. Coffee and pastries. He agreed. Yeah, exactly.

Where he met them supposedly was once at the Edwards Air Force Base in California and twice at Holloman AFB in New Mexico. And since the Eisenhower meetings, other instances of UFO landings, UFOs landing at or near Holloman AFB have apparently been reported. So where does this all stem from? Well, Dwight D. Eisenhower made a mysterious little trip.

50 years, a little over, a lot over rather, 50 years ago at this point. On February 20th, 1954, President Dwight Eisenhower interrupted his vacation in Palm Springs, California to make a secret nocturnal trip to a nearby air force base to supposedly meet two extraterrestrials. Or maybe not. In midair. Maybe Ike just went.

Or maybe you buy the cover story, the cover story purported by the government that he actually just went for a quick dentist visit. That's what it was. There's no, there's some obviously dispute about that. You might be like, well, why? Why do you have to go to the dentist? Because apparently he chipped his tooth on a chicken wing.

That is the reason he apparently made this midnight trip to back to an air force base. I'll tell you this. With a president in his, what, late 70s right now? Like. Yes. He be going to the doctor all the goddamn time. So supposedly the theory is that President Eisenhower then met on that first trip, met with ATs.

This theory comes from a man by the name of Michael Sala, a former American university professor who now runs the peace ambassador program at AU center for global peace. I'm not sure if he's still there now. That information is a few years out of date. I'm not entirely sure if he's still doing that. The, the president's theory, the theory that the president

went to the dentist is advanced by the folks at the Dwight D Eisenhower library in Abilene, Kansas and by James N. Nixon, a dentist professor of dentistry and historian of presidential dental work. Boy, we're about to learn about some of the most boring fucking shit that the government does ever. What an, what an expertise to have.

Honestly, how do you decide that? I mean, good fucking question. On the night in question, this is makes things, and this even muddies it even further Jesse, you're going to be like, of course, on the night in question, the associated press put out a report that president Eisenhower died that night of a heart attack in Palm Springs.

What? Yes. Only minutes later, they retracted that bulletin and then reported that he was alive and well. Nobody knows why. They say it was like a mess up. It's just like a miscommunication. I don't know how you fuck that up.

Like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know the reason why. I'm sure they're like, their excuses is just like a, it was like a fuck up. It was like maybe a joke. But again, we don't know. Much like the UFO, much like the fucking UFO

symbol on the goddamn fucking government website. Anyway, what we do know is that Eisenhower was on a golf vacation in Palm Springs and on February 20th, 1954. After dinner that night, he made an unscheduled departure from the smoking tree ranch where he was staying. And the next morning, he attended a church service in a Los Angeles.

Also that morning, his spokesman announced to the press that president Eisenhower had visited a dentist the previous night because he chipped the tooth while eating a chicken wing at dinner. Sala, the man who again, this theory comes from was a, has a PhD in government from the University of Queensland in his native Australia. He doesn't believe this.

He says the dentist strip is nothing more than a cover story. He believes that president Eisenhower went to Edwards Air Force Base where he met with two ETs with white hair, pale blue eyes and colorless lips. Does that sound familiar, boys? Do you know your aliens? That's a injured cold.

No, it's the Nordics. That's the Nordics. Boys, it's the white savior aliens that we're all so familiar with at this point. White savior aliens. The blonde haired tall Nordics that they come down. Basically these aliens nicknamed Nordics in UFO circles because they resemble Scandinavian humans

traveled to Edwards from another solar system in a flying saucer and Sala says they spoke to Eisenhower. He says, quote, there was telepathic communication. I just, I don't know how he knows that, but he said, quote, it's as though you're hearing a person, but they're not speaking. The Nordics offered this particular deal to Eisenhower. The Nordics offered to share their superior technology

and their spiritual wisdom if president Eisenhower would agree to eliminate, to eliminate America's nuclear weapons. That was what the Nordics offered. Eisenhower was like, get the hell out of here, commies. That's exactly what he did. Honestly, he basically was like, fuck off. When you said that, the first thing came to my mind is,

you know, out of all the aliens that they could have said approached us, the ones they pick are like, okay, so we're like dealing with this whole communist crap and we have to watch out. And the people that show up are like, Scandinavian looking dudes, white as shit who are like, yes,

if you just get rid of your nukes, I bet they were like, look at these, they sent over, Russia sent over some plants. What are we gonna eat them? It's the fucking Agent Smith speech. You have to believe that if this is a real scenario that happened, they 100% thought these were spies. There's like, that's why I don't think this happened at all.

Or at least they were really trying to make sure that they fucking weren't. Yeah, I don't believe, that's why this definitely didn't happen. There's no way. Well, that obviously, he declined that offer because he didn't want to give up nukes. So.

But again, time out. Going back to that skepticism. In the reality of the story, what kind of balls are those? That's what I was saying, like going back to the skepticism article that I talked about, the fact that money and time and energy is being devoted to nukes,

if aliens came and said, we will give you alien tech, if it gave us a one up over the Russians, we would have taken it in a heartbeat. But the Nordics were not offering weapons or anything. Granted, we would have tried to find a way to weaponize it. I'm sure. But like, I don't think that's what they were trying to offer. Again, they were also offering their spiritual wisdom,

whatever that entails, whatever that means. Maybe they'll like uplift our consciousness. I don't fucking know. I just can't imagine the president being like, oh, spiritual awakening, eh? Sounds good. Yeah, well, he said no. Again, sometime later in 1954, on the other air force base,

President Eisenhower did actually make a deal with a different race of extraterrestrials, known only as then, and we know them so well now, the grays. The baby Yoda's. The baby Yoda's. No, man, the grays, all right, is the grays. The contract was pretty simple. Allow them to catch, capture earth, cattle,

and humans from medical experiments, provided that they've returned the humans safely home. And since that time, the grays have kidnapped millions of people, and in return, they would share technology with us. The only way that I could see the president agreeing to that is if the grays took him into a room and they were like, here is the gun

that could destroy the earth in one second. You will do whatever we say. Like, you know what I mean? Like, that's the best deal that somebody with equal power to the other one makes. You will, we will come and we will study you. And if you don't misbehave, we won't kill you. I mean, that's like, you would think that's how they would be

because they have the potential to murder us. But, I don't know, man, it again doesn't make sense. So. It's a hard bargain for the people offering spiritual enlightenment. You have to understand that Sala, the person who pushes us forward, is a true believer in the majestic.

Sala? Which is why this. Indiana Jones' wheel man? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it was. Bad date. So, this really, it was like the MJ12 and all the stuff that he learned about

that kind of pushed him in this direction. And honestly, like I said, it's a muddy walk from actual facts that lead us to something crazy like this. He would go on to author a book called The Hero's Journey Toward a Second American Century. And then, as earlier in 2004, publishes second book, ExoPolitik's Political Implications

of the Extraterrestrial Presence. And let me just show you this man's website and what I had to navigate. And GeoCity's coming in. ExoPolitik.org, it's in Zoom if you want to check it out. Oh my God. Anything that's got like cut out pencil sketches with colored pencil art over them?

You can see him in the bottom right, his ExoPolitik's Today podcast with a picture of him uncensored. I need you to know. The Nordic ET supply mission to Ganymede and Europa's second underground city episode. Everyone listening right now. This show or this website,

this website has the exact same vibe as your grandparents' basement. It has, it looks like the Crankies, honestly. There's just like so much stuff placed wherever. I'm sure he knows where it's at. Wherever, there's no organization. Good luck. I want you all to go in and like try to use

a Chinese xenophobia movie. There's the Pope saying what's up to like a CG gray with like a skin bodysuit. This is like ultimate dimension lonely me who never met anyone and ended up just going in this direction. There's like a space team with like a dude, like a superhero and like, I think Moon Knight's on the team.

I think his eyebrows are what my eyebrows will eventually become with age. Like I already got very bushy eyebrows. I need you to know, we need to watch like some of this. I feel like- Yeah, no, true, I did. Now on Vimeo, the coming alien false flag siop in it just has like the pope and a gray like hanging out.

I'm telling you, dude. I think I might poke my eyeballs out before I finish watching this. Oh my God, they have the rise of the red dragon. Then you've got Enki's return, a daimic DNA, the Tree of Life and Awakening Giants presented by Dr. Michael Salah. Secret Diplomatic Mission to Underwater Cities

in the Atlantic Ocean. Oh, here's his newest book. Galactic Federations Council and Secret Space Programs. Does that sound something that we've covered recently? Book seven of the Secret Space Program series. I just want to point out the cover of this book out of all the possible aliens and extraterrestrials. He picked like the whitest aliens you could find.

Yeah, you got Nordic, Nordic, another Nordic. I think that's a tall white- Thankfully, there's a group of white aliens out there to save us. It's crazy racist. The latest webinar on Vimeo is Time Travel, Temporal Warfare and Our Future. Oh, and Suzanne Somers is in there next to that blue guy.

Yeah, yeah, there she is. Oh, man. Yeah, there's so much, like you've also got on Vimeo, halls of records, portals, the inner earth and our ET heritage. This is all in. This is dude's banana sandwiches and it's great. Well, this does, if anything, this website and this guy

show very clearly the gateway that this kind of thing can lead to conspiracy things then it can lead to like down the path of some pretty awful stuff, right? Even though this guy's about aliens, there is a lot of like, he's, these got anti-Chinese stuff in here and he's got like, oh, when the white aliens come to say,

like it takes you down that path and then soon you're on the internet being like, I don't understand why all of the ears like, wow, my dude. I genuinely hope at the end of this episode, listeners, you can walk away and see, ideally, if like kind of whittled down to its basics, the path, how easy it is to just start somewhere where there's actual physical evidence of something

like a memo, something as simple as that and how quickly you travel down the road of crazy energy. Because just because this guy, this guy who's got a lot of credential, Friedman, thinks that the Majestic 12 are real. Like, you know, and it doesn't matter, we're gonna get to the, we're getting to the end here, so don't worry, we're almost done.

But I wanna finish up Sala real quick because I want you to understand how we came to these conclusions. So you might be wondering where the fuck he got this information, why he knows about the aliens. So for much of the 90s, Sala says that he studied conflict resolution and tried unsuccessfully to apply that knowledge to prevent war

in East Timor in the Balkans. That's, that was apparently what he was trying to do in the 90s. That's his big priority. This is his major priority in the 90s. But he got frustrated because he was not succeeding. So he began, so the next logical step was to start looking for extraterrestrial connection to human misery.

And he says he found evidence of ET visitations, including the encounter with Eisenhower. You might ask, well, where did he find this information? Where else did he find it, boys? But the internet. I've so many. So he is obsessed with linking extraterrestrials to human misery?

Yes. This is, to an extent, the exact same thing as when my dad and I went to Machu Picchu. We were in Peru and we went and saw a giant fort and there were these massive stone blocks. And he, too, the dude who lived in the area was like, so do you think aliens helped move this? And it's that kind of insane disconnect.

I love you, dad. I think you're the best. But I was so like, dude, what? Because to think that humans couldn't do that, or in this case, humans couldn't be responsible for their own misery is some like next level humanity deflection bullshit. Like, we are just like, well, clearly.

That's like, yeah. Cormac McCarthy shit, that's all. Clearly they didn't have slaves move this thing, dad. Like, no, no, it must have been aliens because we would never, it's that kind of thought process where you're just like, what is going on? This, to keep in mind, this man's credentials is they're barely, barely better than yours, Jesse.

He's just a professor at a college. What did he teach? Professor of what? All he did. The School of International Service at American University. I founded the university's peace ambassador program. Let me go back up to see what he was teaching.

I cannot remember what I said earlier. It's long gone. I'm already on his, I'm already on his profile. I'm trying to figure it out. Well, yeah, his website is like, I have it actually like written somewhere else. But yeah, he's like, it doesn't make, I just, I can't, he frustrates me

because these are the people that fuck up the actual research that, you know, we wanna do. And like, it just, it makes it so much harder because people like these guys are out there making a joke out of it. Even if he doesn't think he's making a joke out of it, he is. Did I get rid of that page?

No, no, no, I didn't. It's just, it's. I honestly cannot find what he has his degree in. His name, let me see if I can find the nacho potato chips. It says that he was a non-official peacemaking person in East Timor or the stuff you said. He's a lecturer at the Astro. Oh, politics.

It was, he was a political, he learned, he was a political scientist in Australia. No, okay, no, I know that's a job. That's what it was. But what was his degree in? Like, what did he do? I said it earlier, I can't. I'm cheese making.

Cheese making, yeah, let's see if I can find it. Right, it says professor, he just, I'm just curious. Like, if you're gonna be like, he's got more credentials than you, I wanna make sure because I have a lot of degrees. I agree. And I really wanna fight this man. That's true.

Maybe he's got higher, maybe his fake degree. I don't think it's fake. I just wanna know what his degree is. I'm not as wiki, but I'm not seeing any degrees, just what his job was. No, I mean, the reason why I said this is, I have a lot of degrees, there are nothing that I currently do, right?

So I'm curious if his degree is in one thing and now he does this other thing, you know? And if it relates to all that kind of thing, I'm very curious what the vibe is with this guy. Cause it- Yeah, I'm looking at it. All it says for is educated, it says he was educated at University of Melbourne.

That's all I know. I mean, that is a university. So like, I got, you know- Doesn't even say he graduated, but he got to be a professor. I mean, he clears his PhD. I'm just curious what it's in, right? Like, because it's all this politics stuff,

and then now he's doing aliens, which I think is very funny. Yeah. Well, so it was actually asked of him, like, okay, you got it on the internet. Like, how did you go about researching it? His answer is hilarious. Quote, there's a lot of stuff on the internet.

I just went around and pieced it together. I have my reasons. That's how we pieced together this fucking theory that Eisenhower met with aliens. And think about how popular this theory has become. That is the exact same mentality as when someone tells you an insane conspiracy theory and you say, what is your evidence?

They're like, do the research. I did mine. You're like, what? Just read, just read. Yes, same thing. And you're like, what research? According to this article, it says that's not true. And they're like, well, that's the fake news.

And you're like, oh my God, I'm never gonna, I'll never win this conversation. Yeah. Correct. Like I said, in 03, he created that peace ambassador program. And it was on the AU website as quote, summer program that combined study, meditative practices and prayer ceremonies

at selected Washington DC sites aimed at promoting individual self-empowerment and divine governance in Washington DC. So that's always been what he's up to. So is this like a coded religious stuff then? Really? This seemed like- Yes, oh yes, yes, yes, yes.

That's not that hard to figure out. When he said like divine, like all this is like the aliens are gonna bring us Jesus. Is that what this kind of thing is? Spiritual knowledge, dude. So I love of course what I'm distressed that his ET research is not connected with his work at AU center for global peace.

The folks at the center for global peace are also very, very, very excited to put us foot down on him. So the research that Michael Salah is doing is not research that he is conducting on behalf of the center or in collaboration with the center. This is his own personal research, like not attached, not attached.

Yikes. Obviously when other people are asked about, do you think he met with aliens? Most people end with no. And I just wanna go to the last bit, perhaps leave you with a little question of the actual legitimacy of the Majestic 12 documents and why people are so unwilling to let go

that these still may be real. First, it's important to note that on each of the pieces of paper of the Majestic 12 document, some of them are actually marked with a presidential seal, others are not. The presidential seal that was used was not the one that was used during Eisenhower. And on top of that, the formatting of the letter

and the way it was presented was not how that particular branch of government sent letters. It just doesn't match any of the known actual quantitative evidence that it would become that would come from the government. We're going back to Friedman for this because he is really the crux that keeps, I think, MJ12 a legitimate argument for some people.

Friedman was obviously outspoken as an articulation, was outspoken in his articulation of positions and his criticisms of UFO debunkers, often stating that he was not an apologist ufologist. His positions are regarded as controversial in mainstream science and media, but Friedman claimed to have received a little opposition at his many lectures,

most of which were at colleges and universities, many to engineering societies and other groups of physicists. He had a number of debates in the mainstream media, like I said, you can go listen to him anytime you want, including one with UFO skeptic Michael Schermer on CNN. Friedman was criticized by both skeptics and other Roswell researchers for taking the position

that there are no substantive grounds for dismissing the authenticity of some Majestic 12 documents. Friedman himself was the first to provide evidence that some of the documents were clearly hoaxes. For example, he showed that a supposed memo from Admiral Roscoe Hillencoder to President Truman dated February 17th, 1948,

was actually the emulation of a letter from Marshall to Roosevelt that was featured in the book, The American Magic. So he disproved himself, but continued to believe. Why would some of it be real and some of it be fake? That seems crazy. Well, that's another belief is that some of the pages may be hoaxes to make the rest of it look fake

and not real and then to throw away, like there's always reason, right? That you can always find a reason and fill in the unknown. Friedman researched the MJ12 documents since first becoming aware of them from William Moore and Jamie Chanderra way back in 84. He addressed criticisms of the original documents in both sources.

As an example, Philip J. Glass, a class claimed lexicographic inconsistencies, basically the typeface based on the use of pika typeface in the Cutler Twining memo and offered $100 in a challenge to Friedman for each legitimate example of the use of the same style and same size pika type as used in the memo. He's basically saying the font would never be,

show me evidence that this font is used elsewhere other than this one very specific place. It should not be used in the MJ12 document. Friedman provided 14 examples and was paid $1,000 by class. So class was wrong. There are things out there that other documents and so on that have that font.

So it leaves the MJ, like the MJ12 documents is that transition. Either you believe them or you don't kind of thing. Very crazy conspiracy theory. You either believe or you don't. And if you, like it can lead you to the gateway drug if you will. Any different ends.

Like you can believe the MJ12 documents are real and still think that, you know, you need to see proof and all the things like we are. But then you go to the other side of things where you can believe the MJ documents are real and then you go into crazy banana religious town and you start going into Eisenhower meeting with aliens and making contracts with the, with the grays.

I love all that stuff, man. I want it to be true. It's crazy that MJ12 docs are the gateway to aliens and MJ Mary Jane is the gateway to drugs. You know what I mean? It's certainly the, it's certainly the gateway to like the 12 alien theory and like the very racist conspiracy theories that exist.

And I think the MJ12 document is one of, I think it would have happened anyway, but the MJ12 document helps lend it a little credibility with what it purports to be true. It's, it's frustrating. Again, as somebody who's on the other side of this and really loves to research it, but it's important, you know, going forward

as we go do more aliens as time goes on, that this gets laid down. You need to know this MJ12 stuff. You need to know the, the crazy conspiracies. So then when we reference this or we talk, tackle aliens that sound crazy, like the 12 alien races theory, you understand to keep your eyes and ears open

and don't fall into the easy trap of just believing things at face value and piecing things together on the internet by yourself and calling it research. Just, just not how it works. Do you think it's weird that they, they're called the Majestic 12 and there just happens to be 12 alien race?

Like you are strange. I brought that up on purpose. Like, like, yes, I think that is a big reason for it. There's, it's fascinating, but I am, I am much more of a, you know, I'm not a freedman, I'm a hynic. Like I love Alan Hynics, like his books, the way he approached things,

the scientific way he looked at things and is, is even to the end of his life, being like, I don't think they're like all coming, they're not physical aliens. Like I think this is all, could be very different things happening and we need to like look at it scientifically. And that's, you know,

but now you can see why the ufology field is laughed at so much where a lot of the crazy excuses come from and why it is so easy to just speed run into the problematic conspiracy theories. And on that, boys, the Majestic 12, Eisenhower, and aliens as a whole comes to a two hour close. Interesting, interesting episode, dude. I hope that made sense.

I hope I was able to organize that in a way that you could follow. I loved it. Yeah. I don't know. I'm not trying to change your opinion, Jesse, on how aliens are, but I do hope learning about hynic and learning about freedmen and the way

certain things were handled just give you a bit more context as to how these projects were managed. We're going to go do a mini-soat on Shilluminati Patreon. Thank you guys so much for listening. We love you. I appreciate you. This mini-soat has more UFOs apparently

as Alex brought UFOs without us even talking about what this episode was gonna be. UFO movies, patreon.com. Yeah. And if you want the MJJL12 documents, just Google it. They're out there for you to just download as a PDF. It's totally easy to get your hands on. We love you. Goodbye.

Bye. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Shilluminati podcast. It's always I'm one of your hosts, like Martin joined by the... I don't know who they are. There's two. What?

Terrence Hill and Bud Spencer. No. Nio and Trinity. Oh, I don't understand. And I probably never will. Let me just tell you right now that there's two Leon Kennedy and Clarence. I'm telling you, I think he literally just looked up

famous duos. Cheech and Choc. And he's been going through the list ever since. I'm trying to dig deep. Which one of you is a dick power? Me? Your name's Jesse Cox. I want to look naughty.

I want my body. I want to look naughty. I want my body. I want to look naughty. I want to look naughty. I want to look naughty. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Luminati podcast.

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