Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 195 - Alfred Packer Part 1: Post Nutter Clarity

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

Preston Nutter was one of the smart ones. Good ole Alferd...I mean Alfred. I'm pretty sure the Wild West is just a made up place that didn't exist at this point. Patreon - http://www.patreon.com/chilluminatipod BUY OUR MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Special thanks to our sponsors this episode - EVERYONE AT HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD ButcherBox - http://www.butcherbox.com/chill Promo Code: Chill Talkspace - http://www.talkspace.com/chill Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Art Commissioned by - http://www.mollyheadycarroll.com Theme - Matt Proft End song - POWER FAILURE - https://soundcloud.com/powerfailure Video - http://www.twitter.com/digitalmuppet

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Shop Drunk Elephant Skincare now, exclusively at Sephora. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Chiluminati Podcast, episode 195. As always, I am one of your hosts, Mike Martin, today, joined by the Julian Barat and Noel Fielding of LA, Jesse and Alex. Okay. You know that name? Yeah, you know them? Yeah.

Noel Fielding is, like, extremely known. The Mighty Boosh. Yeah. He's extremely known. As Jesse looks massively confused. He's like the host of Bake Off now. He's like huge. That's why I recognize him.

That's what it is. Yeah, I'm aware of who they are. It was apt to just, like, yes, I know that they are known. He is known. Well, which one is which? I have heard that he is known. Huh? Who is who?

Who's who? Which one is which? I don't know. I think there's a little Noel Fielding in each of us, Jesse. I think there's, like, two sides to Noel Fielding, and I think we exemplify each of those sides of him quite well. Sure. I'm trying to think, like, I don't know that I am a Noel, but-

I'll take Noel. Yeah. Like I said, he's well, he's widely known. Jesse is absolutely baffled every day. I know he can't see his face, but he looks so confused. I just don't remember who the other person's name was. Julian Barat. Julian Barat.

Yeah. I don't think I'm a Julian either. I don't think I'm either of them. The thing that's the weirdest thing about the Chilluminati show in the, like, late, like the late 100s episode numbers is that at the beginning of every single episode, two, like, all three of the hosts spent a significant amount of time talking about a pair of British comedians that they barely know anything about. To be fair, we haven't done this for 195 episodes.

I started this late in our life. No, no. This is late, this is late hundreds, numeration. This is one of the features of this period in our lives. Like, if it's like Van Gogh, and this is like the blue period, this is the British comedian duo's period. Are you excited? Wow.

We're five episodes away from hitting episode 200. I wonder what we're going to do for episode 200, man. I don't know. I have some. I'm curious. Yeah, we'll talk. We'll talk. I wonder because it would be weird if one of us had a plan.

It'd be wild if one of us had a plan. I don't think I'm either of them. I'm looking at it. I can't figure it out. He's just coming out of the research hole. I don't think I'm going to be either of those guys. You have to pick one. I can't.

You must. One, I clearly see in a closet, an IT crowd. And the other is very much not me in any possible way. I'll be no fielding and you be Sandy Toxford. All right. Yeah, I feel like that's good. Who's that? Yeah, that's the other host of Bake Off.

Well, actually, it's now Matt Lucas, but Sandy Toxford. I think it's Jesse's more of a Sandy than a Matt 100 percent. Yeah, yeah. Jesse will be anybody if you pay him enough. Sandy is also the host of QI. I love you know what? She's great. Yeah, if if I could put Jesse in one job, it would be to make him

the host of the American QI. If I had like a billion dollars, that's a great idea. I love it. I would give that to the American people. Jesse, like I said, for any amount of money, you'll be whoever anybody wants, right? Is there like a limit? Like if they paid you what like a hundred million dollars

and to for you to role play as somebody, we'll see that's different. Mercenary mindset, baby. That's what I'm talking about. If somebody said, Jesse, I want to bang you, but you have to pretend you're Hitler the whole time. And I'm being paid a hundred million dollars. Is that what this episode is about? Banging Hitler segues.

Hang on. I don't I don't think that's good. I the other day, I saw there's a game on steam that was that specific thing. So what? Yeah, I know. I'm not even joking. Welcome to the Internet, everyone. Answer the question, Jesse.

Yes or no. What do you mean? Would I for a hundred? I do pretty much anything for a hundred million. A hundred million dollars. A hundred million. I do pretty much a question before after taxes. We'll say it's after taxes.

It's a clean hundred million. Do anything. Oh, I would. And if there's any like rich princes out there that need me to do something. Where can they give us that money, actually, Alex? I think that if you wanted to do something similar to that, I think maybe not quite that. Let's say that.

Let's put that out there. If you want to do something that's not quite like what Mathis said. Yeah, not quite that, but similar to it. You can head over to patreon.com slash shillman pod where no one will ask you to act like Hitler during copulation. However, you will get I don't know what that means. Well, speech. What I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. You just shout a lot while you're like with every thrust. Yeah. Would you want me to paint? I don't speak German, first of all. Like I don't speak a lick. I don't speak a lick of German. I don't know shit.

I like I could. The illusion immediately falls apart when I'm like, how does he act? No, it means that the end of copulation, you put a shock on your mouth, you pull the trigger. Oh, yeah. I don't think it was a shotgun, but did he not? Was it not a shotgun? I don't think so.

I don't think they're pulled out of shotty. I feel I thought he did. Hang on. It's time to Google. What did Hitler shoot himself? If I get me my shotgun shooting by. Oh, what a bitch. No way he had a shotgun down there. Swallowed suicide first and then shot himself in the head with.

I'm a I'm assuming a pistol. Well, there we go. How do we get here? Here's one thing you can. Here's one thing you know. I want you all to know about all three hosts of the Chiluminati podcast. We think Adolf Hitler sucks. All right, guys, do you smell that?

Is it burning toast? Dude, I don't know what's going on right now. What's that smell? Hmm. Are you OK? Do you know? No, not true crime. But cooking human flesh. He's gone. He dies, bro.

Did he die? What just happened? We're in like a like a psychedelic like dream nightmare right now. I don't know what happened to Mathis. He's gone and said, do you smell burning toast? Hello. Hello. Hi, we're still alive. We've had we're still recording, I guess.

We have been fully connected this whole time. Oh, my God, to our signal at all. And we just watched you go into the shadow realm just now. I think somebody from our future found out that we started talking about Hitler on the podcast and jumped in to stop things from getting any further than they had gone. What in the fuck just happened? You know what, Dean? Godspeed.

Sir, Godspeed, hold me. I don't know what. Dude, do not edit any of that out. That was hilarious. I told the animated version of that comes out. That was crazy. All I was saying is I smell the smell of cooking human flesh. Do you smell it?

Why is that? What are you talking about? Why would you? What is the what is the through line? What is the through line? I'm told it smells and tastes a lot like bacon and pork, actually. I don't know why are you on this? It's also don't worry.

It's also the smell of the internet. Tried to stop you and gave you an out. It gave you an out, Mathis. You could have walked away. We didn't have to come back here. We didn't have to talk about this. Rule one of improv. Commit to the bit.

You know, stop. You just go. Oh, my God. That's true. You don't think that's true because the smell of human flesh is also the smell. You don't have to keep talking about it. True crime. It's the smell of true crime as well. We're here.

Hey, we're here. The obvious and the obvious segue has been revealed. Thank you. We had to get there. Mostly we're doing some more true. I've been excited for this. I've been excited for a while. But if I keep thinking about aliens, I'm going to jump off of a bridge.

I do. I've been watching Mathis unravel in the chat. It's not it's not good. I don't don't ask. It's getting worse. Don't ask about the photos. Don't. Yeah, don't.

God damn it, Jeremy Corbel. And then you know what? It's worse about a couple of days later. Enough like people have kind of talked about it and picked it apart that there might actually be some legitimacy to these photos because it's what you learn is that it's a heat photo. So the object we're seeing is not hot.

It's ice cold. And the thing we're seeing behind it isn't a contrail. It's a wake trail from it moving so fast. So if it was a missile, you think it would be hot. I don't know. I can't do this right now. I can't do this right now. We can't do this right now.

I get it. So instead, what did you decide to lighten the mood? We're going to go to we're going to go back to a world that makes sense to me. Eighteen hundreds of America in the world of true crime. You know, I think it's hundreds of America. So you know, it's going to be fun. Dude, this is another story filled with great names,

weird situations and moments that you're like, this is this can't be real. So before we actually begin this podcast so far, actually, you know what? You're right. You're right. Jesse, I'm going to send into Twitter a little ballad for you to read through.

It's short. Don't worry. Six miners went into the mountains to hunt for precious gold. It was the middle of the winter. The weather was dreadful cold. Oh, I think I think Twitter might be making extra paragraphs. Six miners went into the mountains. The had nor food nor shack.

Six miners went into the mountains, but only one came back. What you just read, Jesse, is known as the ballad of Alfred Packer written in the night sometime in the 19th century. We don't have an exact date for it. My I know this story. Not to be confused with the song The Ballad of Alfred Packer by Philip Ox in 1964. Are you familiar with that tune?

No, I'm not familiar with the two. Let me give you boys a sample. Let me give you a little sample of what this is like. Hang on, hang on. OK. Can't wait to hear this. This is the Ballad of Alfred Packer. Nice intro so far.

This guide in the old list. In the state of Colorado in the year of seventy four, they crossed the San Juan mountains, going hungry to the car. Their guide was Alfred Packer. They trusted him too long for his character was weak and his appetite was strong. They and that's a little taste of the song. You go take a listen to it. Take a minute. Hold on. Can you play from the beginning again?

Absolutely. This is the Ballad of Alfred Packer, an infamous guide in the old west. Are you trying to figure out what the woman is saying? No, I'm trying to figure out that opening bit right there. The music is I'm almost positive. The opening to the song Tribute by Janaceous D. Is it really? I'm sure it's the exact same opening.

You just crack open a mystery right now that we didn't even know existed. I think, you know, probably J. Bulls is a big fan, maybe of the ballad. Yeah. Yeah. That song is really fun. It's like go go look it up again by a man by the name of Phil Ox, O. C. H. S. I had never heard of him before. That song was specifically released in 1964.

But other than that, there was also a 1980 bio pic about Alfred Packer that was pretty much entirely fictitious called The Legend of Alfred Packer. And in 1993, the musical cannibal, the musical. That's the way I know this story. This is very, very, very loosely based on his story. Right. So, you know, if you've seen any of those, you have a general idea of who he is. But, you know, it's not quite truthful.

It's a lot of the last one. The musical is like a student project from Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Did you know that? Really? I did not know that at all. That's wild. It's fucking hilarious. It's so worthwhile. It's like this. It's like if you're like at your house, smoking your big ass

bong, listening to the Chaluminati podcast, what you should do after this episode, you know, after something to our patron, of course, is to literally just immediately turn on Cannibal the Musical by Trey Parker and Matt Stone. And it will be a great companion piece to this story. It's a great idea. I might go do that after this as well, because I want to. I haven't seen it. It's hilarious. It's short, too. It's awesome.

It's, you know, it's like a student film from when they were at C.U. I think. Well, I don't know what it is about that, like, 1800s era where it seems more cannibals were willing to go to Cannibal Town. This is a very trauma friendly time. Yeah, this is like the same era that Boon Helm was doing his thing out in the wild and almost dying. Didn't start giving a fuck to like 1915. Yeah, there was you think that's what it was and not like the inability

to find food in the winter or who are you going to tell if you if somebody you're like, hey, somebody ate this guy. Somebody's going to be like, oh, shit, OK, who are you going to tell the sheriff? Again, like Boon Helm, his issue was like he kept going out knowing he couldn't do it, and yet he kept going out anyway over and over again. And he kept getting his ass to a room and like shot a man and left. And he was like, fine. He didn't like go to jail.

You know what I mean? Like, no, like that's a different world. Like that's a world where nobody gives a fuck. I'm telling you, 1915, it is a 1920. That's about the time that people actually started to be like, wait, you can't do that. Before that, if you just like beat the shit out of somebody, everybody would be like, my guy probably deserved it. I mean, you're not wrong.

And you're going to see little snippets of that in this story. Yeah, the story of Alfred Packer is not quite like Boon Helm. By all accounts, Packer was a much more decent man, not a good man. But unlike Boon Helm, it wasn't a serial killer. Always on the edge of stabbing somebody. He was real hungry. Yeah, real hungry. Yeah, yeah. But Packer was definitely prone to fancifying his life a bit.

He liked to lie to make himself seem way more important or cool than he actually was. And he was just a man who in the end kind of got put into a terrible situation and didn't necessarily make the best decisions when it came to survival and how to go about it. But we'll see that in part two. There will be a two part episode series. Oh, shit. No, no, this is more of a story of ambition, poor decisions. And in the end, the loss of unnecessary life, potentially at the hand of Alfred Packer.

In this two parter will be looking at Packer's life both before and after the mining expedition that changed his life forever. But as always, before we dive into it, a shout out to the main source for today's episode by one of no, maybe definitely my favorite true crime author, Harold Jector, a book by the call by the name of Man Eater. It is a such a great read. I don't think there's anything by this man I've read that I didn't like. This is another really good read.

And if you want all the details, has he done? I mean, we did Ed Gein was he was a main source for Ed Gein. He has a bit about Dahmer and one of his books that I used as part of the Dahmer research. He's done. I think he's did Ed Kemper, which we'll be doing at some point in the future. That's the one from Minehunter, right? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, so Shectors is a very well versed to crime author.

One of the best out there. I freaking love his stuff. Shout outs. Yeah, big shout outs. Please go read it. If you want to know all the gritty details that I'm not going to cover here. He does a great job at laying out how he found the information, how we tracked it all down. It was great.

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Toyota, let's go places. Alfred Packer was born on November 12th, 1842 in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania to parents James Packer and Esther Griner. He would be one of eight kids in his family. This is the time where like kids were a labor source, you know, they were like, got to pump them out because we need little hands working around our land.

Otherwise, we're going to have to hire people and that costs money. And I know I don't know what you're thinking, obviously, is Alfred Packer related to the famous Asa Packer, one railroad pioneer and founder of Lake University, right, boys? That was. Oh, yeah, that's where I was at. I was like, yeah, no, I was there. Good. I was there with you. Actually, I was thinking like what British comedian is Jesse Cox

like as well as I could. I could go. Well, despite Alfred himself claiming that he was indeed related to this particularly powerful and well-known woman, the truth was simply that he wasn't. He lied about it until the day he died. Shortly after I'm saying, nobody you could just nobody could check. How are you to check that? Unless you walk up to her himself.

You're like, I have the same last name. Fuck. Yeah, exactly. Shortly after Alfred was born, the their father decided to move the family to LaGrange, Indiana and became an active member within the local Methodist Episcopal Society. But beyond this point, what we know about Alfred's childhood is about as deep as a puddle. We have nothing on this man's life until about age 19 or 19.

Anything before that is kind of purely mystery, barring one important fact. Hacker growing up was known to fall into very violent seizures. The beginnings of a disorder that would bother him and trouble him until his death, something that we now know as grand mall seizures, for which at the time all they called it was seizures and it could absolutely do nothing to help it. And if you're wondering, what are they called? Grand mall seizures.

It's a type of seizure that involves a loss of consciousness and violent muscle contractions. A grand mall seizure is usually caused by epilepsy, but may have other triggers such as very low blood sugar, high fever or even a stroke. The state, the seizure has two stages. Loss of consciousness occurs first, lasts about 10 to 20 seconds, followed by muscle convulsions that last for less than two minutes.

Yeah, it's it's they need if you have this, you need to be on daily seizure medication to keep it at bay because it's just constant. Is it M. A. L. L. Or M. A. U. L. M. A. L. One M. A. L. L. It's not not like Darth Maul. No, I don't like Darth Maul.

I'd be freaking sick to the Jedi, right? Big bad seizures. Yeah, big bad seizures. This is something he suffered from childhood. There's nothing people could do to treat it. And it would just damn caught him his whole life. It would be a few months before his 19th birthday that we actually get kind of our first look into Packer's life.

And at the moment we get to look at is one that would change his life forever. It was when the bombardment of Fort Sumter hit, as in, as we know, started the Civil War. A month later, Packer was off to join the Union Army, where he registered in April of 1862, joining the 16th Regiment of U. S. Infantry at Winona, Minnesota. So he just was like right on off. And the only thing we really know

beyond him having seizures is this, that he joined the army. I have no idea what his life was before that. We only know what he looked like at this time because he actually joined the army and due to his enlistment form physical description. At this time at 19, Alfred, or just about 19, rather, Alfred was five foot eight with fair complexion, blue eyes and hair that more than more than one person described as coal black.

So he had like very dark hair. When he was shipped off to Ohio for training after after arriving, he quickly and proudly adorned his right arm with a tattoo that displayed his name, rank and regiment. So he was just immediately super excited to join, got a tattoo. It's kind of wild to put your rank on your tattoo. Yes, at the 16th Regiment, all that stuff. But there was one, one small issue with the tattoo.

Alfred wasn't a learned man. And his name spells spelt wrong. Instead of saying Alfred Packer, it said Alfred Packer. He switched the E and the R in his name. So Alfred Packer was sure, dude. No, nobody, probably because none of them could read. I'm sure many of them have no idea. Nobody gave a shit about anything until like 1915.

This is what I'm saying. I agree. And one. And this actually, he wasn't the only one of his family that couldn't spell their own name. His one of his sisters, I think was three years older, if I remember correctly, Melissa, spelled her name consistently, Melissa, with an A instead of an E. And it's just, again, lack of education.

It points to that he obviously didn't go to school as a kid. He was a manual labor guy on the land they moved into. So, yeah, for the rest of his life, not only does it say Alfred Packer, but if you actually go to his wiki, which is a great little quick resource on like a quick highlights at the very top in the tab, it's labeled Alfred Packer. So go ahead and you can, Jesse's going to check it out right now. Yeah, you can do it right now.

You can see it at the top in the in the actual Wikipedia. U R L as well. And it's all spelled Alfred. That's so funny. It really is. Yeah, I think that's frickin' hilarious. Alfred Packer. Yeah, it's like one of the weird running jokes that sticks with this man. Don't read the wiki. Don't spoil yourself on the story.

I'm not going to eventually. I didn't expect how much he was going to look like Rasputin. It's just the time period, man. Life sucked out there. It's just you could be 20 and look like you were 60. It's wild. But eventually we do know that Alfred at some point learned to spell his name because later forms in his life indicated that because he began spelling his name correctly in other forms.

His stint in the army while he did sign up for three years ended very quickly and kind of sadly, just after Christmas in 19 rather, 1862, just eight months after signing up, Packer received the disability discharge at Ford, Ontario for, quote, incapable for being incapable of performing necessary duties because of epilepsy. At the bottom of at the bottom of the form was a place for the doctor

to write how often these events happened. And it simply said, quote, all the time. He was having seizures constantly. But as the paper trail leads us, he didn't give up on the army quite yet. After getting discharged, he wandered westward, where in Iowa, he enlisted for the Union Cavalry. And because we're living in an era where people can't talk to each other,

they had no idea that this man was discharged. Even ever get on a fucking horse. If you think of the same thing, dude, there's going to be a lot of questions you're going to ask about this man that point to him maybe not being the most intelligent seven foot fall for your head. You know what I mean? Yeah. He sounds a lot like John Locke from Lost, where he's like, don't tell me what I can't do.

Yeah. Even though it's like, bro, you shouldn't do that. Yeah, it's got that. It's very much that. So many examples of him being stubborn as fuck to his own detriment. It's like that scene from Lost, where Locke smiles at the camera with the orange, but it's like a fucking human heart or some shit. I have never seen the show, but I hear what a great character. No, no context needed. He wandered off to Iowa, joined the cavalry.

And we know during this time with the cavalry, he wound up in Tennessee on duty to defend Nashville because of a note written by the regimental scribe docking packer two dollars and fifty cents from his pay, which is of a little more than fifty dollars in today money for a quote plundering citizens of Nashville. Well, whatever, that's like one value meal at McDonald's these days. Yeah, yeah, these days.

Yeah, the dude was guarding Nashville and also robbing the citizens of Nashville at the same time. They were like, all right, give us 50 bucks. Now, stop all that robin you're doing. Yeah, they didn't kick him out of the he stayed in the cavalry after that. They didn't stop that robin. Yeah, that's it. You can stay, but don't rob anymore. Pretty much. That's exactly what happened.

But when April of 1863 rolled around, which is the exact like about one year exactly from when he joined back in 1862, Packer would be discharged once again for the very same reasons with this doctor noting that he'd been unfit for duty for the past 60 days and, quote, the paroxysms occur once every four to eight hours and sometimes as often as two or three times every 48 hours to give you an idea of how often Packer was having these seizures. He was plagued by these seizures.

And it's a yeah, he got him kicked out of the army again. I don't know what he was expecting. He lasted way less time in the cavalry. I don't know if they were like he was going to have to have a seizure on a horse at some point, and that would have been a disaster. I feel like it had to happen day one. You would think that would happen in day one. You would you would hope it would happen in day one.

It did not happen in day one. The years following his dismissal found Packer drifting even further and further west. We know he worked various jobs to make some money just to keep him going. Like he was a trapper, a teenster and a hunter slash wilderness guide for people, which is I can't imagine went well. Eventually, his drifting landed him where it landed a lot of veterans of the Civil War out in Colorado, where the gold and silver mines beckoned anyone willing to gamble their entire lives moving there

at potential riches beyond their wildest imaginations. It was at that time, you know, it was just like mines were constantly being discovered and taken from the native people. And it was just a lot of people saw easy money, so everybody fucking made it there. We also know at some point during this time that he lost two of his fingers in a mining accident, landing him a job that was known as a jackwacker. Boys, before I tell you what a jackwacker is, what do you think a jackwacker is?

A man with two fingers can be a jackwacker. So if you have a jack and you're jacking, then I imagine someone has to undo the jack. Is that it? I don't even know what you're talking about. So no jackwacker, you need two fingers to do this. You don't need two fingers, but somebody missing two fingers can still do it. They can still do it. I don't know. No clue. Can somebody with one finger do it?

I would say, yeah, I would say they could. Can somebody with no hands do it? That might be difficult. You would need a jackwacker. Is somebody who you pay to jack you off? Yeah, you get that two finger crab grip, dude. Yeah, we love to hear it. No, it's way more boring than both of those.

All he got to do was lead long strings of pack mules filled with supplies for the miners who were actually doing the mining. That's all sick. He became just a boring labor guy. And of course, during all this, the seizures did not stop at all. One of his co miners, I guess is what you that's that's what I wrote down. But now I'm saying it out loud and it sounds really weird. One of the miners he mined with stated, quote, at frequent intervals,

he would fall to the ground and struggle to a terrible degree. He would then he would then be prostrate for several days, unable to perform any labor. So, you know, he wasn't very good at doing the whole mining thing. Seizures once again ruined his dream at being a miner, at least there. And it's at that point we lose Alfred Packer to history for a while for an entire decade. It isn't until that decade passes that he pops back up.

And this time we find him in Utah, making his way to Bingham Canyon, where he would work as a copper miner for a time before. What do you think got him out? No, it's not seizures. Seizures did not force him to not be a miner this time. Robbery. No, not that either. Only new problem arises for our dear Alfred Packer. He was sickened with lead poisoning and had to stop working.

I mean, that checks out. That sounds right. This man has lost two fingers, has constant seizures, robbed people and now has lead poisoning. What year is this again? Eighteen. Wearing like 1866 ish. You got off easy. I'll be real. This is like this is the 1800 special right here.

What's funny is that he beyond this event that we'll go through, the man ended up living till 97 years old. And that's what I'm saying. Records. People like we'll talk about that in the next episode as we talk to. Do you think it was because he ate of human flesh and thus gained their powers? Well, you imbue the souls of the others and could potentially like, you know, further along your youth. You know, all the rich and famous people do blood transfusions with young people.

But I be eating my friends and enemies, I guess. Only the young ones, though, only the young ones. I mean, yeah, yeah. That's the basis of every conspiracy theory actually happening right now, which is pretty messed up. I know, I know. That's like literally all the thinking that it took to get there for like anyone at any point during any of this. Yeah. Dude, that's my favorite thing is to as like when people come at me,

they just ask a question and watch them unravel because they can't answer because they don't think that past that point. Once he was back on his feet, Packers kind of similar. He was more worried about the immediacy. Of finding another job. So instead of becoming a minor again, he went to a nearby small town known as Sandy, where he began working as a smelter and he was smelting copper,

which meant during that job, he got, quote, led it again. He got led poisoning again. Second time. Yeah, I feel when you get led it again, dude. Yeah, man. When you get led it again, that's what he said. I got led it again. I've done got led it again. From Packers own future testimonies, he said the lead quote wrote me into fits.

They thought I was going to die. So yeah, I don't know what led poisoning actually does to you, but I know it's not good. Potentially makes you a violent serial killer. But that's all I know. Is that real? Well, there's a theory of the serial killers were very prolific in that in like the time period because gas had lead in it at the time and lead poisoning has been known to potentially cause violent,

angry temper changes and stuff. And yeah, there's a theory that that funneled into the massive amount of serial killers we had for a couple of decades there. What a what a great world this is. I know. Isn't it a wonderful place? Well, now it's all unleaded, so we're fine. The micro plastics aren't going to do anything to us. Boys, come on, we'll be fine.

No, no, I'm doing great. So now that he was led it again, the local saw bones, Dr. McCann treated him with a liberal amount of castor oil. And if people who don't know what castor oil is, it's really just a vegetable oil pressed from castor beans. It's colorless, pale yellow, and it's supposed to help with like making you poop. It's it's like a digestion thing for the most part.

So I'm not quite sure how it was supposed to help him with lead, lead poisoning. But that's what he did. I mean, if you don't know what saw bones are back in this day. So like doctors were like jacks of multiple trades. They were like they were what do you call them? You would take them to the barbershop to get like surgery and shit done. People who were barbers were also surgeons and it was a wild, scary time for me. I feel like when you call somebody a saw bones,

that's like when you call one guy a chef and one guy is the guy behind the meat counter at the at the grocery store who's making you a turkey sub. You know what I mean? I guess I feel like that guy is the saw bones. Oh, yeah. Well, they are the saw bones. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And Packer, after receiving a lot of castor oil, I guess, was on his feet just in time to get his hands on a newspaper that was spreading the word of the latest silver strikes out in sand

and the San Juan mountains of Colorado. And at this point in time, where we're at is 1873 by now. And fall was in full swing by the time he got news with winter not too far out and the call of San Juan being too tempting for him not to heed. He knew he needed to get there quickly to have any chance at claiming the treasure before it was all claimed by others. And Packer quickly met two travelers who were just serendipitously heading out to San Juan themselves because they, quote,

had no better out, had no reason to go any other place. Like they just were like, hey, whatever, it's fine. We we we could go to San Juan. We could go anywhere else. Ever ever were kind of the same for us. And when he found them, he went and offered them help as best he could. He could help along the trail as well, along with like hunting and stuff because he was broke.

He had no money to offer, no way to pay his way. And he was willing to do whatever he could and claimed to know a considerable amount of the country and could be a useful guide for them to help pay his way. And nobody could fucking Google it because nothing existed like that. Exactly. Bob McGrew and George Tracy were the two that he approached. And they were very impressed with not only how ambitious he was, but how healthy he seemed to them. He seemed like a healthy young man who would be able to help them

in the harder things and be a really valuable asset to their caravan. They mistook the like maniacal activity of a lead mad, like illiterate, again, it's not crazy person. Like because it's not you'll see like he annoys a lot of people, but he's not Boone Helm and that's important. Like it's different. He's not brash. No, he's just dumb. He's very stupid. That's really the big problem.

There you go. So since they were impressed, they decided that's fine. They'll take him along and they paid his $50 grub steak. If you don't know what a grub steak is, a grub steak is an amount of material, provisions or money supplied to an enterprise or in this point, a wagon, a wagon, they basically just paid his for his supplies to come along with them. And that's like the term they used back then is a what's you know, you got a $50 grub steak.

And after that, Packer was part of their two wagon caravan. Their plan was to stop by Salt Lake City. You're going to stock up on provisions. And by the end of that visit, the caravan was 19 people strong, all headed to the promised treasures of San Juan, Colorado. And that's how YouTube works right there. I'm trying to figure out what you mean by that. I guess so, like you walk into a city and you meet.

Oh, he ended up with a caravan of 19 people based off what? A wish and a dream and a nickel. Yeah, I guess you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And shortly after the 19 people departed Salt Lake City, heading north to Colorado, two more prospectors ended up joining them. A man by the name of Preston Nutter, one of my favorite names I've ever heard, and another by the name of Oliver D. Lutzenheiser, another German just like last time with Boone Helm, the German that joined.

But Preston Nutter is my favorite. Nutter was openly concerned about their provisions being too low at the start when they joined, but Alfred Packer reassured them that quote, he knowed all the country and reassured them that they'd get to their destination, which was about 400 miles away in 20 days time, no problem. He was going to take them 400 miles, 21 people in 20 days, not no problem. And everybody fucking believed 400 miles. Everybody was like, this guy knows what he's talking about.

He said he knows before 1915, you couldn't do a simple division. I swear to God, when somebody says they knowed all the country, then I guess you just have to take them at their goddamn word. 400 miles in 20 days. Yeah, man, no problem. It not an issue at all. It didn't take very long for one of the two new folk, Oliver, to start disliking Packer a lot.

He said he found him irritating, greedy and accused of hoarding the rations. And an example he gave, he said, when the flour began shortening in supply, Packer would build up a fire, bake up a great cake of bread bigger than a dinner plate and then shove it under his coat and sneak off with it to eat because he didn't want the others to jeerp him for his greediness. The dude was just making a huge loaf of bread and like a cartoon. I was like, I'll have that in my fucking coat. And I was going to fucking on and you just hear munching in the background

before having a seizure and going to bed. This is fucking why. How could they be like, gentlemen, we'll see in 20 days. Yeah, I would beat this guy's ass on like night two and been like, we are out of here, my man, dude. A few people really, really wanted to beat him. Trust me, Bob and Oliver both claimed that Packer had an uneasy interest in just how much money everyone was carrying on them as well.

Constantly inquiring to see how much people were carrying on them at the time. Just like very. Yeah, he would just ask people consistently. How much gold he got? What do you got? How much one do you have? Oh, yeah. Hey, Jim, how you got? How much money you want? And just ask people how much money they had and they would respond. Or would they be like, shut up?

They seem like they would respond. Yes, he would. And it was a consistent annoyance to them. It was very, very weird and it was very suspicious. But Bob Bob McGrew, the man who kind of took him on and initially didn't really ever dislike Packer and didn't really understand why other people in the caravan didn't like him. He had a soft spot for Packer, but he also was aware at this point,

as was everybody, of Packer's epilepsy. And he truly, I think, kind of had a, you know, like it was empathetic for that reason and felt very much bad for him. For McGrew, the discovery came one night early on when they camped around the fire and Packer suddenly said they said had a wild look in his eyes as he stared on before, shortly after, falling over partly into the campfire while convulsing so hard that he knocked a coffee pot over where the water splashed onto the hot coals causing a steam that then scalded and burned

in a freckled pattern all over his face and eyes. Holy shit. And that's why I say, why did this guy decide that the job he should have is to lead people into the wilderness? This was before the other two joined him. So he had plenty of time to be like, you got to go back, man. Salt Lake City is like that way. Like what? Yeah. Like, OK. Oh, no. Yeah.

You know what? Yeah. No shade for being an epileptic person, like having epilepsy. Just if you've got it and there's not a pill you can take every day. Maybe don't be a wildlife guide in the 1870s. Don't tell him what he can and can't do, bro. You're right. Yeah, you can't stop him. He's fine. Damn it. He's going to put that flesh between his mouth like an orange and smile at you.

I don't want to. I don't want to take. I don't want to. I don't want to tell him. I just want to advise. I just want to have had least said my piece before he leaves, man. It's like how like that scene in my mind is like a from a cartoon where it just falls in, knocks the pot, water splattered, like the just acne chain of events. It's insane. He starts to catch on fire.

Yes, he's partly into the campfire like himself and then convulsed in the fire. Even if he's taking these people out here just to rob them, which it seems like maybe. Well, just based on him being like, oh, from their perspective, absolute. Yeah. How much money you got? How much money you got? Yeah. And then this dude like falls into the fire and like almost dies like right out the gate. Yeah. And they were like, no, this guy's cool.

I like this. Yes. Well, McGrew was that we should do this. One of the early caravan members from that incident yelled at McGrew saying, you're the man who invited him in. You fucking take care of him. And they wouldn't let him sleep in any of the other wagons. He had to sleep with McGrew from that moment on, which is right early, early on. So they did not want him there.

It was McGrew who was in charge of the caravan that just decided to. What did he have on this guy? What do you know, right? I don't know, man. You'll see why I think he has like such a tender heart for him here in a second because after Parker had kind of come to and was taken care of, Packer told McGrew that what just happened was the first time anything like that had ever happened to him. And then from that point on, they happened regularly.

And he claimed to McGrew this was a new thing. He had never suffered seizures before. So he just lied about it right immediately. Like this is what I'm saying. Like he's not even like, oh, I know it happens. Please try and save my life if I fall into the fire and not scalding hot coffee onto myself. No, he was like, oh, man, that's weird.

I've never had that happen before. Oh, I hope that doesn't happen again. It has like another one. It's insane, dude. It's he just lies and lies and lies. But McGrew was like a caring and kind man. And his big old heart remembered that often when he was talking about it,

he would just remember that often in the middle of the night, while he was rooming with Packer, Packer would wake up to head outside to go to the bathroom. And then we would return into the wagon. Occasionally would fall into a seizure on the wagon. Oftentimes nearly on top of of McGrew. And every time McGrew got up, picked up and cradled him and kept him safe until the seizures ended.

And then he gently put him back to bed. Did he like lose a son to epilepsy? I don't know. It's what it feels like. But he was just like a good guy, a good guy. Yeah. Yeah. If he was a good guy, he would have sent this motherfucker back to town. Well, the dude fell into a fire,

knocked a coffee pot of scalding water onto himself and permanently disfigured himself. What's in his best interest? Take him out further. See if he see if he ends up being a good guy. If you take him back to town, he's just going to end up going someplace else and you won't be there to help him next time.

400 miles in 20 days. It's worth it, guys. That hero complex, the savior complex, took over for him. He had to he had to help a wounded animal in his mind. Just wild throughout the journey. It eventually was also discovered by the others in the wagon crew that Packer had spent nine days in a county jail in Salt Lake City before.

And we don't know if it's true for the reason, but the reason that Packer gave him was because he was found with a prostitute. And so he was put in jail for nine days. It was Salt Lake City. I mean, that checks out. Exactly. See, that's why I'm like, I can see that. But this is the drawing of a prostitute in Salt Lake City. Oh, what? No.

This this little piece of information only hardened Oliver's distaste for Parker at this point, saying that it showed that not Parker Packer, saying that it showed that Packer had very little character and was not trustworthy. It just kind of added to the whole like, I don't trust this man. He to sus. But they were stuck with each other at this point, at least for now.

And while Packer promised 20 days, how long do you think they were in the wilderness for? Gentlemen, 40 days, 40 nights. OK. Yeah, I don't know. Five days. No, no, he promised them 20. They were in the wilderness. Oh, they stayed. They continued. They followed this. Oh, yeah.

It got to the point of no return for them. There was no going back after a little while. By the time they realized he might not know what he's doing, they were committed. They were about to start leaving the camp. Fuck, they were about to pack up after he fell into the fire and poured scalding hot coffee on to himself. And then they all went home safe and nobody got eaten by him.

Right. That's what happened. Yeah, attention, residents of Salt Lake City and surrounding areas enrolled in Medicaid. Now all your health care needs can be found under one roof at Sacred Circle Health Care from primary care and dentistry to physical therapy and behavioral health, all in one easy and convenient location. Call us at 801-359-2256

or visit us online at sacredcircle.com for more information. Geico presents daily affirmations. Repeat after me. We can overcome any challenge. We can overcome any challenge. Like when we left our interior lights on and our battery died. Like when we left our interior lights at the what? Good thing Geico's got emergency roadside service.

It was available 24-7 on the Geico app. Good thing Geico has emergency roadside. Now we feel very relaxed. I feel a bit chocked out, actually. Am I still supposed to be repeating after you? No, not to manifest car insurance made easy. Go to Geico.com. How long do you think they were in the wilderness for, Alex?

Fucking three months. Bang on. Ninety days, three months. They were lost in the wilderness before they would find any sort of safety from the wilderness itself. And it was only through the kindness, by the way, of them paying Native Americans that they bumped into

to guide them further along their journey because they were entirely lost. So the only reason they made it as far as they did was because of the kindness of the Native Americans and willing to help these people. But they also noted that they would only take them so far, often stopping short because they would say that the tribe that was further on was hostile with their tribe

and they wouldn't cross the boundaries because it might start a war. And this is when they actually found a bit of safety during one of these moments where their guides had stopped and they went on anyway, even though they were warned not to go on because the Native Americans in this part were very hostile toward, you know, settlers. And but they they moved on anyway.

And on January 25th of 1874, while the men were famished near starvation and dying was kind of within view for them. They began debating if they need to kill the horses at this point for food, because if they didn't, they may die anyway before they get anywhere. But before a decision could be made, the group found themselves very quickly surrounded

by the local Ute Nation, quote, Hoopin and Yellen, all wearing war gear array. They were scared for their lives. But one of the wagon members by the name of Frenchy spoke Spanish and was able to communicate with the tribe. Ironic, I know, right? He was able to speak with the leader by the name of Ure, and he explained to them

that they had no intentions of settling in the area and were just transient fortune hunters trying to move on to the gold mines further north. Hey, me too. Isn't that the life story of everyone? Move on, the gold mines further north. Oddly enough, Ure took, found this is enough that they that they weren't clearly

trying to settle. He saw how famished and weak they were and saw no threat, but also knew that sending them further would be their deaths. And he warned them that they should just stop until winter is done. All the pads at this point were covered in snow, and they couldn't even see where they were like on the road, so to speak. And so instead of taking them further north, he guided them to an area with fresh water,

enough grass spread across the ground, even in the winter, for the animals to eat. And he would help with provisions over the weeks as they waited for winter to end to help get them through and survive so that they can get to Colorado when everything was more travelable, the more more able to be traveled. They like they again, surprisingly, like gave them a helping hand and wanted to help them.

But this didn't last long, unfortunately at all. They all set up their tents in their little places to sleep. But after about a week, Oliver was already getting restless. And so too were a few others. And despite repeated warnings of traveling in the harsh winter with fresh snow covering the trails by Ure, they were so determined that they were going to go out anyway, that Ure decided to give them the best directions he could to the closest cow camp

that the American government kept for the youths as part of a treaty signed in 1873. That was about 60 miles from where they were. And so he basically kind of drew out in the like the snow and stuff. And in the dirt, where's the best way to go? Jesse, you have a question. I'm trying to think of how many miles a person would normally. I know like if you're in the army and how much like a normal march would be. But if you're just like traveling, yeah, if it's 60 miles away,

how many miles normally are you doing a day in the snow? You know what I mean? And are you on and are you on a road? Are you like now in the bullshit? They might be on a road to start, but very quickly they did not and were not able to keep the road. They just followed a man who can't write his name into the woods, who had never been there before. Yeah. And while it's not part of the script, I'll quickly like,

well, let me go to this part first is that again, he convinced Ure just to give him directions to the closest area that would be with with settlers. And so he, Oliver and a few others packed up and left heading in the direction that they were told and Packer wanted to go with them. So he quickly packed his things as well and began to follow right behind them. But they didn't get very far before Oliver turned around, drew his six shooter, pointed it at Packer and said, if he saw him pass that point in the mountain up ahead, there'd be trouble and he should go back now.

It stopped Packer dead in his tracks and Packer went back to the camp. Yeah, he had no interest and he hated Packer, just hated Alfred Packer. And he would have been this guy. Yeah, Packer was like, you know what, you know what? You're right. I'm going to I'm going to head back. That crew did eventually come across the closest cow camp, but it was only Oliver that made it to the cow camp and he led them back where the others were trapped around a dying fire, all skin and bones

barely able to barely surviving with what they with what they had. So they only made it because one person had enough energy to get the rest of the way and got to that cow camp. So they did survive, but only just goddamn barely. Holy shit. You got I can't believe this is like what it was to like travel at one point. Yeah, it's a nightmare. It sounds like a fucking nightmare.

I would like some parts of society are like fully there. And you know, like, you know, in this time period that making this journey is life endangering, very life endangering. But the promise of a better life, especially compared to living where, like, you know, in a developing like colony area is like it's too much for people because it's just in a lot of ways is kind of propaganda, obviously, because they're trying to draw people there to settle in.

But by the time most like normal folk got there who didn't have the means to go right away, all the good claims were long gone. Right. I mean, we saw that in the Boo and Helm story when he arrived. Just like didn't hear a fucking word back from the fucking area. Yeah, they just thought it was still good. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like there's no way to know a lot of the time. And people I mean, the what a shit.

The people who did this at Dahmer Party, same idea of like deciding to go during the winter, even though they were told not to. And no wonder they all went into cannibalism, which is we'll definitely talk about the Dahmer Party eventually. But Packer, when he finally got back, was still very restless and wanted to leave as well. He was anxious to get there. And so we're and so were a few others amongst his camp

willing to go with him. And so one week after the first group of people left this little encampment, the second week of February to give you an idea of how in the middle of winter they are right now, they're in the second week of February. Packer and five others packed up their things and planned on following the trail the previous party had left. Again, it's been a week. The trail is not really even there anymore.

Like they waited so much longer, but that was the plan. The five other people that went with him were Israel Swann, George, California Noon, Frank, Reddy Miller. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew that. I love these names. Yeah, California and California. Hey, California. That was his nickname because that's where he came from.

So like that was the nickname they gave him, actually. Same. Yeah. That might be the only dude they'd ever seen from California. If you think about it. Also, probably true, probably true. Where was Frenchy from? I don't know where. South Texas, yeah, probably.

Then there was Frank, Reddy Miller, Shannon Wilson, Bell, James Humphrey, all being led by none other than Alfred Packer. They all left the camp not long afterward. And it wouldn't be until April that any of this party was seen again. So from February till April, they vanished. Nobody knows where they went. They got lost. It wasn't until the early hours of April 16th, 1874, that was, quote,

like a spring morning, Alonzo Hartman, one of the Los Pinos Indian Agency employees was out gathering firewood. While he was out gathering the wood, he noticed, quote, I noticed a man coming down the little creek walking leisurely on the ice. This man carried a Winchester rifle in one hand and a coffee pot in the other. That, as it turned out, had live coals in it to start a fire. Of course, this was none other than Alfred Packer, who now sported a long, scraggly beard and long, unkempt black hair.

He quickly took Packer to his bunkhouse, where the other members of the agency got him food, comfort, and began to ask what happened. But each one of the agency members has a different memory of what this man looked like. Others, one man said that he looked like he was well fed with wide eyes. Another man said he looked like he was on the border of starving to death. Another man looked like he said he looked relatively normal, but his eyes were hollow and dark.

So we have a mixed account of what he even looked like coming out of the woods. Varying different reports. And I wonder how much of it is influenced by what they ended up learning. What went down like the guy who said he was well fed, you know, he's saying this after he already knows what he did, what Packer did, how he ended up living in the cannibalism that he's talking from hindsight. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what's the real answer.

And unfortunately, we just don't we won't know. But the story that Packer gave when he was asked what happened was a very, very simple one. He said that he was with five other men before he himself became snow blind and foot sore. So the other members of his group left him at camp while heading to find a settlement, but then they never returned. So he decided after he felt good enough to get up and try and wander to safety,

looking for the people that he had lost and hopefully finding somebody to take them in. And the man who first saw him out there in the near the creek and brought him to the bunkhouse Alonzo Hartman. This man is a direct descendant on his mother's side of Daniel Boone. Whoa, like a weird like just to give you what I said, he's a direct descendant of Batman. Yeah, that's like that's crazy. It's on his mother's side.

And it's it's just one of those moments where you realize how very few people were like living in these areas at this time. How easy it was to bump into other people that are part of other stories. You know, I wouldn't be surprised if you bumped into somebody who bumped into Boone Hill at some point. However, after giving that story, it wouldn't be long before it started getting into question because all of a while while he's being taken care of in the bunkhouse over in a Ute Nation village, wandering and drifting down the nearby creek.

A young woman finds a piece of something floating toward her. Stop. She bends over and picks it up and realizes she has the detached arm of a human being in her hands. Holy, and that's what we'll pick up next episode. Learning what happened during those what? February, March, April is two and a half months. What is true and what might be lie?

And if this man killed these people prematurely or he truly waited for them to die? We'll find out next week, everybody, in the final part. Oh, my God, of this episode. All right. I mean, they were the 1800s. It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a it is a whack time. It's a jack whack of a time. Yeah. What do you guys do?

You guys think this man is truly before we move into the next episode for next week? Do you think this man is truly nefarious or do you think he is a man who just is kind of dumb and did some dumb shit and much like Boone Helm stupided his way into survival? I'm worried it's that I'm worried we're going to find out that like in the comedy of errors, he like tripped and fell and hit the edge of like a table and a knife was on the table when it flew up and like stabbed one of the people and that person like fell forward and knocked the guy into a buzz saw.

And that guy, the blood went everywhere and then it hit the people and they're like, whoa, they like fell off the back of like a cliff or something. I'm worried that's what's going to happen all into a pot of boiling water. Again, I love that he came with the coffee pot in hand, by the way. Like it's like wandering. Oh God, I will say this with what you know of his silliness so far. Next episode, much like Boone Helm, he decides to go on the run from the law. Question, did he or did he accidentally like get his foot caught on a rope

that was pulled by a horse and then the horse pulled him away from the police? They're like, he's running. Is that I can neither confirm nor deny that's how it happens. But he succeeds and the cops can't find him for nine years. Nine years? Oh my God. No one can do nothing at this time. You could just hide in a fucking closet. You'll be fine. No one will stop you.

Well, boys, it's fun to be back into some true crime reality. Thanks for joining me on this. It's a little bit more fun than than a modern day serial killer. This has got that Boone Helm flavor. We'll be back next week with the finale episode. A nice little story and I'm excited for it. Please, guys, if you enjoyed this, let us know on rating us and dropping us like little reviews.

That stuff still really, really helps. I noticed we have almost 4,000 reviews on Spotify and we have a 4.9 star average. We're freaking awesome. I also noticed all of our listeners are also from all of your podcasts, which is great. Cox and Cren d'Or and Super Big Bros and stuff. What's up, guys? The same audience.

We're all the same. It's great. We love you guys. We appreciate you. But what if we got more people? Tell your friends and what if they were like, hey, my friend, Janet, the sexy redhead is super into you, jet. Like, what if, though? All right, well, we're going to end that there.

Thank you guys so much for listening. That was the line. That was the line. Come on out. Patron dot com slash tonight by goodbye. Goodbye. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Trilluminati podcast.

It's always I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by the. I don't know who they are. There's two. What? Karen's Hill and Bud Spencer. No. Neo and Trinity. Oh, I don't understand.

And I probably never will. Let me just tell you right now that there's two. Beyond Kennedy and Clare and you'll tell you, I think he literally just looked up famous duos. Sheech and Chal. And they've been going through the list ever since. I'm trying to dig deep. Which one of you is a dick power?

Me? Your name is Jesse Cox. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Trilluminati podcast. It's always I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by Alex and Jesse. Like a shooting star across the sky. That's actually a UFO. Attention residents of Salt Lake City and surrounding areas enrolled in Medicaid.

Now all your health care needs can be found under one roof at Sacred Circle Health Care. From primary care and dentistry to physical therapy and behavioral health. All in one easy and convenient location. Call us at 801-359-2256 or visit us online at sacredcircle.com for more information.