Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 216 - H.H. Holmes Part 1 - Cartoonishly Evil

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

This week we time travel back to the 1800s where evil apparently was bizarrely cartoonish. Alex brings us back to JFK, and starts us on a whole new theory. Don't worry, if you missed the 1st series, you can listen to this without having to! Patreon - http://www.patreon.com/chilluminatipod MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati Special thanks to our sponsors this episode - EVERYONE AT HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD Nuts - http://www.nuts.com/chill Talkspace - http://www.talkspace.com/chill Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Art Commissioned by - http://www.mollyheadycarroll.com Theme - Matt Proft End song - POWER FAILURE - https://soundcloud.com/powerfailure Video - http://www.twitter.com/digitalmuppet

Welcome, welcome back everybody to the Julio Menotti podcast episode 216. What, Ciao! Oh, as always, I'm one of your host Mike Martin joined by the duo known as trapeze, Alex and Jesse. What? I don't want to know anything more. Yes, well that's us. We are trapeze.

I need to know more. You want to know more? Okay, here you go. They were two female comedians, Linda Smith and Don French, and they were known for their dry, wet, and observational comedy, but their humor could be quite mean spirited at times. That's us. Right? Pretty good. That's us. I don't mean spirited to who? The people they were making fun of, my guess. Bob, Bob, Bob. Like who were they making fun of? The patriarchy, man. Come on. Oh, if it's

the patriarchy, then like, all right. I'm part of that. I feel like I can, you know, that's not making fun of anything. I don't let this. Why don't I know too much about trapeze? Are we trapeze? Yes. Can you buy me a drink? Of course you can. Let's get on with this party. I, you know what? I'm down with that. Jesse's probably going to do some research because he can never help himself. I'm not looking it up. I don't, you know what? I don't even care. I don't even know trapezoid. I don't know them. Trapeze has lasers, gymnast outfits, smoke. That's where I'm thinking.

That's like in my mind, that's trapeze. I'm down. You know what else I'm down with is you giving us your money. Mm-hmm. Take it away, Alex. That is terrible. He always comes in, does a perfect segue, and then immediately hands the baton to me.

Just like you should be handing us your money at patreon.com slash shenanigans. And I'm not talking to you, the average person. That's, that's fine. If you want to get some, some, uh, ad free episodes, many sods, you want to get some art from studio, an electro, you want to be part of our Rotten Pop Corn Show. You wanna see video versions of those same mini-sodes. You wanna get merch, you wanna get pre-sale.

It's all in the mix, baby. But if, that's not what I'm talking about today. Today, I'm talking to the rich man, the rich people, the man at the top, the sperm whale. Is this gonna end like, how long are we gonna do this begging for one particular individual before you give up on it? I'm gonna try a few more times to see if I can really

get somebody to do it just for the most. He's trying, yeah. Hey, listen, podcasts are re-bingible, maybe even like four, five years this does hit the years of some original. That's what I'm saying. You're the sperm whale, we're the giant squid. Let's make evolution happen and fund this podcast. That's what I'm talking about. What are you trying to make some sort of whale squid? What are you doing? Yeah.

I wasn't sure. I wasn't really following that, but just the survival of the fish. You know what I'm saying? Like, circle of life. For the rest of the fish out there, that aren't the way we're looking for. There is a new feature on that came out two day for Patreon. And for everybody who listens to our ad-free episodes, our mini-s mini soads, our rotten popcorn episodes, starting next week with the episodes next week. Unfortunately, it doesn't back sink. All of those audios will be able to be listened to on Spotify. All you have to do is connect your Patreon to your Spotify. And those will still be exclusive to you, to your tier. But you can now not have to worry about downloading it on an entirely different site. If you're a Spotify user, but you can now not have to worry about downloading it on

an entirely different site. If you're a Spotify user, you can just jump over it. You're about to ask. Use it right there. It makes it super easy. That is every, every audio bit, our ad free episodes, many so-dron popcorn, like I said. So more value, I'm very excited for that, that feature to hit because a lot of people do not like having to download it off of Patreon's RSS feed.

Yeah. Which is fair. Jesse? Alex. It's my pleasure to bring you back to the world of reality. Maybe, maybe. We talked about a couple weeks ago, the, the human Zeus topic, and that kind of brought us to the Chicago World Fair. And we love, I believe we were talking about, who man's Zeus? You are correct. A very peaceful country that I would love to visit one day, honestly. But in that we visited the Chicago World Fair and all the kind of, we briefly looked at some of the crazy shit that they were displaying back then. But there's also somebody that would visit the Chicago

World's Fair in the mid to late 1800s that many people now know as one of the most prolific serial killers of all time. I feel like people's mouths have been frothing for this one ever since we started doing like more and more of these big serial killers. Just, I don't know this story that well, but it's so zany what I know. Yeah, and we'll talk about whether that zanyness is actually based on fact or not, but there is a lot of potential truth as always with most serial killers and most of what we know comes from his mouth in the first place.

But that particular individual is most commonly known as H H Holmes, but that wasn't his actual name. It was what he called himself after in his young adulthood. He moved to Chicago. No, his name was actually Herman Webster Muget. That's well, I get H H I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and changing his last name from Muget to Hones. Herman Webster Muget. That's like if you dropped a box of words down the stairs. Yeah, you know what? I like that description of his name. It's like a really great word.

Herman Webster Muget. Look at my lips. Look at him move. It's a, those are refrigerator word magnets and just being able to shove them together. Herman Webster Muget. What it, it's a, it's a horrible fucking name. I don't get H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. If we're being real. Yeah. I mean, you're right. It's just three Hs. But maybe we'll talk about that as we move into that next episode. As this will be a two-parter with a small break in the middle as we won't be able to record next week and get that out of the tops of people know, there will be many soda compilation next week and then the week after we'll wrap up H H Holmes. So yeah, H H Holmes is pretty

well known in the true crime world. One of like the first things you learned past, I would say, like if you're really into like researching this kind of world, he's one of the first things you learn past, I would say like if you're really into like researching this kind of world, he's one of the first names you probably learn of just because of how bombastic his claims are. Unlike some of the more grizzly serial killers we've done in the most recent past, this man falls in line with cartoon character fucking super villain. A man who creates a his own castle of death, specifically designed to murder the people that stay there. It is an insane story of a man who's incredibly smart, incredibly dangerous, and incredibly fucking weird. HH Holmes is a really interesting

story. Yeah, people have been waiting for this one for a while, for good reason. Yeah, out of curiosity, as I always ask on these, Alex, what are you aware of when it comes or Jesse, if you know anything about him at all? But what do you know? What is your education on HH Holmes? Zero. I know nothing. Cool.

I love that. I know that he, it's something about, he like ran a hotel where he could like pull levers that like lead people into the meat grinder, like almost like jigsaw or some shit like that. Yeah, you're not on the wrong like jigsaw or some shit like that. Yeah, you're not on the wrong path. You have the right idea for sure. I picture him as like a jack, the ripper looking bloke. I think I can see the pictures of him.

I think I like just off the top of my dome though. I think I'm picturing like a woodcut of a man in a top hat who looks like he goes, oh, I'm sorry. You are, you're getting real good at being a lapin down serial killers. I'm gonna give you a link right now and I need to put something in my mouth to say it, it's nuts that I do. Thank you to nuts.com for sponsoring today's episode.

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Oh my God. Well, he's got like a bowler. He's got a bowler, not a top hat, Yeah, but still he looks kind of like Michael Joe. This guy looks like you know how in like a Western movie, there's always the one dude who's playing poker and he's losing and then he pulls out that little tiny baby-ass pistol. He's like, you know my money. He looks like that. 100% that big mustache. Come on. You kind of kind of accidentally spoiled it by giving you this link, but his name, H H Holmes stood for Henry Howard Holmes. That was the three names he chose to switch to instead of his original birth name. I don't know why you would get rid of her.

Herman Webster Muget. Yeah, you got rid of Herman. It became Henry. He got rid of Herman. Herman Webster Muget. Can't blame. I guess I can't blame him on that one thing. Shout out to all the human Herman Webster Mugets. Listening. I apologize. That's your name. I don't mean anything by it. Let's, let's dive into what we're going to cover today. Herman Webster Mugets, young life from birth, all the way until he moves to Chicago itself, which is where we'll pick up the following episode.

So Herman Webster Muget was born in Gilminton, New Hampshire, a place where barely anything happened. It is one of those sleepy, tiny fucking towns. There were very few people live in on May 16th of 1861 to give you an idea of how long ago this was. We're in the 1860s right now in a small tiny little town in New Hampshire Where it's not a lot fucking going on He was the third-born child to parents Levi Horton budget and theodate page price

Theodate page price you're the math theodate page price. I fucking love that name. Oh Theodate our boy. what shall we name him? Herman Webster. Herman Webster Muget. Yes, P.O.D.T. Levi. Levi's a good first name, but it's immediately followed by Horton Muget.

So that just is rough. And it's unfortunate, different. And a different way. Horton Muget. Rough. Page price is great. P.O.D.T. is weird. Levi's great Horton Muget's weird.

They were made for each other. This is like one of those, this is like one of those situations where you start saying words and then like the entire English language starts to sound like nonsense to you. That's what's happening to me right now. Like when you say sprinkle a lot of times. Okay, we got to get out of there. We got to get out of there. No more sprigly. The language vortex here. Pulling you out. out. His father was a farmer from a farming family and his parents were both devout Methodists. And according to the 2007 most evil profile on homes, his father was also a violent alcoholic. And the reason that I'm kind of pointing to that is because much like a lot of the people we've covered in this time period, what we know of this people, this man's parents is

very fucking little. Even his, his youth and his childhood is still a little muddy and hard to pin down what is true and what is not other than the stories that have the, his childhood friends kind of being the witnesses to it. It's just a time where there's not a lot of records and God knows where they came from and not really knows what they really did after this. Some guys just sit in there like, yeah, yeah, that happened. Yeah, yeah, sure. Living in this town, it was the perfect town for young Herman to become kind of the wolf

and sheep's clothing. And one thing that we'll learn about Herman really early is that unlike a lot of serial killers who in adulthood start to begin to play the game of here's my fake life of pleasant happy and then here's my evil life where I actually get to be who I want to be and murder and be terrible. Herman started playing that game in childhood. He immediately started creating a fake outward appearance of like a happy go lucky child with all these friends and secret was doing some horrible things where pets were starting to go missing.

And wild animals were being found in weird, mutilated ways, which again, we'll get to. But he's fascinating because he's one of the few who kind of not only knew what he liked early, but had no qualms, doing it, hiding it, and they also pretending to be something else. It's very bizarre. In the heart of Gilminton nestled among rolling pastures and meandering streams, they are

also sat the Muget Household, which just sat there unassumingly, a typical emblem of 19th century Americana, this home, this home hid secrets that would have made even the bravest souls of that tiny town, Dracker. Secrets of Muget House of a Muget House. The Muget House Secrets. Sitting there like an American lump, the Muget House. Do you think of his name, he stuck with his name, he would be as popular, shall we say,

within the true Crencet fear? If his name was HW Muget instead? Yeah, HWM. Do you think his rebranding of himself actually gave him a little bit of a pizzazz, a little bit of a more entertaining side? A name is important. A name is important. I know it is.

It's very important. If he was claymation, HW Muget would be a perfect name for him. Yes, sure. But because he's just a regular guy, I think he should stick with HH Holmes. So if he was like in core line, far, HW Muget. Yeah. Right. If he was like, if he was like, a Wallace and Gromit dude, that's, that's one 10%. Sure. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm with it. But in real life, nah, HH Holmes, there's like an allure there. Right. There's also the homes name plus HH. It just rolls off the tongue. It sounds yeah, kind of mystical. It's the most like 1930s movie name that you could have. Yeah.

You know what you're at, damn, you're damn, like you're very gangstery. Yeah. Young Herman was that this town's kind of paradox to the naked eye. People saw just another child playing amidst the fields, exploring the woods, partaking into some childhood kind of shenanigans, which we'll get to. The simple joys of being a child in 1860s, which man, you go out there and you play hoopstick. I don't know that there was a lot of joy. I think it was probably hard. Yeah, probably sucked.

I think it was probably a fight to survive. There wasn't, I think the idea of what kids get today, get to be kids, that didn't happen until when, the 30s, when the laws passed in America, was it the 30s? I don't even know. I feel like the 30s is not a great time to like start doing anything with kids in America.

Yeah, imagine being five and just have hard labor. That's all you do around the farm. You just pick it up rocks and put it down rocks. That sucks. So Herman's productivity's proclivities, good Jesus, I know how to say that word, I swear, but whenever I see it written out, it confuses my brain. We're first noted in obviously hush conversations

and rumors among the town's folk. Hets, especially those of smaller kind, did actually begin to disappear as dear old Holmes began to grow up and it began happening with alarming regularity. Cats, birds, and even the occasional squirrel just vanished only to be found later in secluded spots, each bearing witness to unspeakable acts

of mutilation and cruelty. Okay, two things. First of all, who keeps a pet squirrel? That's psychotic. And second of all, and you know what? I know I'm a sted... I would say, yeah, that's weird, but my family... I know my family when my mom was a kid at a pet squirrel. What was it? What was the deal?

Well, the tree got like chopped down a bunch of baby squirrels, like we're killed, but one lived, so they took it, raised it, and it became their pet. Oh my God. Okay. All right. Well, I just... I'm surprised that that was a type of pet at any point time. I am. That's more like a Pixar movie type of plot than like go into the pet store and grab a squirrel, which is what I was thinking. And number number number two, like when you're like an evil child, when you have like dark thoughts and it's like the 1860s, like, what do you do instead of listening to like dark metal? What sort of evil art do you consume?

You, you've stuff it away. He's living right now in a heavily religious town, which we'll talk about a little bit in in just a few minutes, but heavily religious, that was just all Methodist. And any outward appearance of otherwise was just like, you made you the town, like the black sheep of the town, where just nobody, like, you know, those are the weird ones, so the ones that doing like our sinners are doing these horrible things. So if H H Holmes actual activities of mutilating was known, I can see why they wouldn't necessarily bring it out because it would totally tarnish the town of however few people are living there.

Yeah, it adds like this David Lynch level of weirdness to it, like, like this sort of like steppford creepiness to the idea of it because it's very much like the steppford creepiness I hum, holy get completely ignored. Yeah, you know, and it wasn't just the mere act of like finding dead animals, uh, secluded, secluded that made the town utterly uncomfortable. But it was the manner in which it was done. Each creature seemed to have been meticulously dissected. Its insides laid out with an eerie precision that belived the hands of a child, the small hands dissecting small creatures. It was as though Herman was on a quest to decipher the very fabric of life by delving deep into the realm of death.

What a wild way to put it. Almost like a flesh neck romancer. Like, let's be real. The past I've been playing a whole lot of Baldur's Gate. You know, that's where a lot of my mind is right now. Yeah, there's a lot of neck. Listen, I found a book of neck romancing. Did you put the Gemini bro?

I did and I survived the roles, but I don't know what to do with it now. Like I'm lost and what to do with it. I got to figure it out. You're too dead homie and then you want to quest. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. All right, all right. Don't throw on two teas. All right.

So, but it's true like he reminds me of Domer in a way where Domer was also like all about curious and the bones. But instead Domer never used the bones for anything. He kept saying he was going to, but it's just like a pile of animal bones that he never used. But Herman wasn't worried about the bones, but instead, Domer never used the bones for anything, kept saying he was going to, but there's just like a pile of animal bones that he never used. But Herman wasn't worried about the bones, but he did have a bizarre interest in like the anatomy of inside of a creature.

And this is, oh man, you guys still are killer pingo cards, it's already everybody. You should be getting them because here we go, you know, childhood mutilation, just mark it off on the thing. I thought you're gonna say he fell down and hit his head and then things were never the same. And we'll see, uh, they may not be marked off for this guy. Uh, yeah, kids were obvious, kids are curious.

Obviously, I mean, walking down like a sidewalk and seeing a dead bird. I sound like I wanted to rip it out, but you might poke it with a stick and then we'll move on. Like, no, what? No, you never like then we'll move on like, no, what? No, you never like lived in like a little like, yeah, okay, like, yeah, maybe like once before somebody was like, do not do that. You know what I mean? I mean, you were like walking down the street with like a fruit of your friends and you all see a dead bird. You're like eight years old and you just poke it with a stick. You like, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. I'm not like, oh,

God, yeah, no, like, I was like, you gross, but not to what he's doing. And the children were the first ones that kind of started talking about how weird Herman was. In the neighborhood, and there was a little boy that would, I guess, Herman considered his friend that went by a little Tommy, little Tommy from the neighboring farm recounted tales of stumbling upon. Little Tommy Karate. No, no, not Tommy Karate time, all Right. That's just not for another like a hundred

years. It's always time. Karate time, bro. What happened? He sent you a letter and he said no more making fun of me or else. No, no, no, I definitely, uh, no, no. Little Tommy from the neighboring farm recounted tales of stumbling upon herman in the woods with a scalpel in hand and a lifeless creature at his feet. Sarah, the baker's daughter of the town, saw she once saw him emerge from the shadows, his hands stained and glazed in red blood. Yes, stepped out from the shadows as what she said. I was like, we're on the light and a vacant gaze on his face.

Standing in the sun's last light, when suddenly from the shadows he emerged, hence red with blood. All he whispered was a name that he could not call himself HH Holmes. It was Herman Webster budget I saw that night. HW budget. Yeah, this little town of Gilminton was was a completely tight-knit community. One that often chose turning a blind eye to people's faults to see the good in people. Herman was just the mudge boy, the son of Levi and Theodate, both respected members of society. So why would anybody worry about this? Levi and Theodate's son. These stupid tales of him cutting animals up, overactive imagination of the kids down the

town consistently reassured itself whenever these rumors were bubble up and kids are just being imagined if it probably wasn't what it looked like or. And no, Herman, Herman, no, Herman wouldn't do the little, he's a little shy as the case though. That didn't change from then to now to whenever it's always like, no, no way. What a sweet boy. What? No.

It's that, it's that same principle again of like your way of thinking about life being threatened. And so you, you double down on your reality again. Like it makes you deny stuff like a kid dissecting animals. That doesn't happen. You make, sorry, you make a good point like there. No, and because this was kind of consistent, eventually, somebody would see something that kind of clued them into the reality of who he was.

And among the denials and dismissals, those moments when somebody saw something as fleeting and rare as they were, would actually get to see truly who Herman was. One example is a teacher who noticed Herman's unusual fixation on the anatomy of a dissected frog or a neighbor who observed his cold calculating eyes as he watched a bird in flight. That one right there was like, that was a weird one. I was like, really? You're worried about the way he watched a bird. Okay. Cool, man. But didn't he? Hold on. Didn't he like, well, not him, but didn't we go over someone very similar who was like dissecting frogs in the past? Haven't we done that? Yeah, you're thinking of Dahmer. Yeah. Dahmer loved dissecting and then he would display them out in the woods. Yeah, I feel like the

bird falls into the same category of a thing that you are looking at. And instead of singing as like a beautiful life, you're like, how does that work? Like if I disassemble it, what parts? Like, how do the wings, it's very mechanical because you don't see it as existing or having a soul or being a person or a animal. It doesn't have feelings. It's like a thing. Yeah, very dumber, very interesting. I saw him watch that bird.

I saw him watch that bird and it looked like he wanted to take it apart with his eyes. He wanted to take it apart into its skin and to its bones. So I went home and I did what I was supposed to. I prayed to God that night that he would bless Herman Webster much. I said, that did not happen. I ignored that. I went to bed with no remorse. Well, as time passed in Little Old Gilminton and the seasons changed, life went on. These little glimpses of Herman would be continued to be seen. And his actions remained casting a darker and darker shadow on the town streets. And as the boy grew, so did the intensity of this guy's actions. And still nobody did anything.

And whispers about him transformed from curious tales to fearful speculation. What year now? 18. So right now, we're looking probably in the early 1870s, 1870, 1871 around this time. Quite called the cops. I mean, no, you got like the pinker tins you could probably go find. But not for like a child that's being weird. No, no, no, not unless people are willing to share, but the town sheriff's going to be like, what? No, I don't care. Yeah, I am. Yeah, I'm. He's he's operating on the same time. Billy, the kid is still whipping around, I think. Billy, the kid was in the 60s, 1860s. There's not like institutional help. Yeah. Yeah. The child they also growing up playing in the fields was now be slowly becoming an enigma,

one they couldn't ignore. And the town of Gilminton would soon come to grapple with the dark legacy that he would eventually leave behind. Kerman Webster Muget, better known by his later alias of H.H. Holmes, exhibited early signs of sociopathy that are now recognized in the modern day as potential indicators of future violent behavior. These indicators often include cruelty to animals, as we always say say and an absence of empathy and Holmes childhood was not exempt from these harrowing instances often and very commonly. Before we move forward, a shout out to our main source for today, the book by depraved by our one of my favorite true crime authors, Harold Schechter.

There's also devil in the white city, which is another amazing book on this subject in one a Pulitzer Prize, I think. I've seen this book in like every bookstore that I've ever been in. Yeah, you, if you've, yeah, if you've been to any bookstore, second bookstore, you will see devil in the white city, multiple of them. And it's a good read if you are, if you're of any interest in it, and they're both very good to get an idea of what they believe this guy to be. Everyone was obsessed with that book, man. I remember that. Man, yeah, it was yeah, it was a big one. And in the past few years, some new researchers come out from about H. Holmes, which we will address in the final episode. So as far as his animal cruelty

is concerned, one of the most troubling and persistent anecdotes from Holmes youth was his alleged fascination with performing the surgeries with the pets nearby, the cats, dogs, and whatnot. And it wasn't just mere childhood curiosity about anatomy, but these operations were gruesome and were executed without any semblance of compassion or empathy. The difference between him and Dahmer is he did not seek to display his work afterward. Dahmer very much, if you remember, kind of displayed the intestines of the dog in a tree for a hiker to eventually find his animals were just kind of stumbled upon left to just rot where he ended up killing the animal and moving on with his life. And that part is, I mean, it's

a slight difference. There's, there's an interesting, like there was still an interesting weird. Different motivations though, like not, not the same to, to, to, to, to, to, to, motivations, though, like not not the same. Yeah, to to Domer. Yeah, yeah, exactly. As for his friendship and relationship with his peers, there were also darkness whispers here too. One particularly disturbing story recounts a time when homes and some childhood friends were exploring an old house and upon discovering a human skeleton, not what you would think like a rotted body that rotted out, but most likely used for medical purposes. This is a time where people who, every fucking doctor had like with those skeletons, but

they were real people skeletons at this time, like they were genuine skeletons. Holmes reportedly took advantage of his friend's fright and brandishing the bones in a way that showed not only his lack of fear, but also a desire to manipulate. And I want to talk about this incident actually in more detail. As was typical for curious children, Herman often roamed the outskirts of his hometown with a small group of friends. Their adventures took them to various spots from the dense woods to old dilapidated buildings that dotted the rural landscape of Gilminton. I mean, what else the, again, what else are you going to do in the 18 fucking 70s? Just wander around and look at shit. Yeah.

And I'm sure those dilapidated homes were fucking dangerous. I imagine they fell apart very quickly. Step on some creaky boards, rip apart a dead squirrel. The worst. That one's in secret. Okay. Now he doesn't do that in front of people. One day, their wanderings led them to an abandoned property. And this wasn't their first for a for a into such places

as derelict structures often peaked killed children's curiosity. However, this exploration was destined to be different. As they wandered into the musty rooms, the group stumbled upon a grim discovery that of a human skeleton. While such a fine might seem macabre by top of, okay, macabre, sorry, macabre, I got made fun of that so relentlessly. Listen, I have weird pronunciations that like, you'll never be as bad as the guy in my old Warcraft Guild way back when we went to Strathoma and he goes, guys, watch out for the cat of airs. We're like, what? He's like the cat of airs around the air. Like, you never bro. I thought that word before. We're like, the cat of air of errors, you know shit. I love that

So yeah, while people today probably would like think finding a human skeleton Macabre and like by modern standards Like we said in a momentary like a little bit ago This thing was likely used for medical specimen at some point left behind by a doctor or a medical student Thank you to talk space for sponsoring today's episode. And I'm a champion of mental health. I have been for years and I will be for the rest of my life. It's so important. And it drives me crazy when people treat their mental health like something they just have normal control over. Do you have control over any of the other things that happen to your body when you get sick? You go to the doctors to keep yourself

in the good health zone. Why wouldn't you do the same thing for the brain? You know that squishy piece of meat that contains you inside of it? The whole personality of you? Yeah, take care of that thing. Look, we all get down sometimes. Some of us more than others. God knows depression has hit me like a truck through my life. Then it's affected my life in a way that is irreversible. But it wasn't until I started getting therapy that I realized just how badly I needed to get control over my life in a way that is irreversible. But it wasn't until I started getting therapy that I realized just how badly I needed to get control over my life and talking through it and just helping getting that outside perspective made my life just come into focus.

And I get it, it's difficult to like find time out of your day, especially if you have kids or another job. I don't go to in-person therapy. I use talk space and use online therapy. It's convenient to meet online, whether you're at home or anywhere you're comfortable, and you can talk to them about anything that you need to talk about in your life to just make that difference positive. And then there's the flip side.

Seeing a therapist and psychiatrist can be scary because it can be expensive. It's another reason you should try talk space. By doing everything online, talk space is made getting the help that you want easy, accessible, and affordable. When you've met your therapy goals or simply want to cancel, Talkspace has a simple cancellation process and will work with you to get a pro-rated refund for unused time if it's applicable. I get it sometimes you want to wait and it just wait for something bad to happen. But don't.

As a listener of this podcast, you're going to get $80 off of your first month with Talkspace when you go to Talkspace.com slash chill. The match with the license therapist today, go to Talkspace.com slash chill to get $80 off of your first month and to show your supporters and to show your support for the show. That's it, Talkspace.com slash chill. Thanks to Talkspace for sponsoring the episode. Such items were not unheard of in the late 19th century, especially in homes that once belonged to medical professionals. People were obsessed with that ship for a while. I've been like, look, the bones are real. Yeah, well, this is the time of medical discovery where people don't really know a lot. And

so there was a lot of poking and prodding and fucking around with the body until we realized what worked and what didn't. It was a horror house. Having a doctor come over could actually maybe cure you or you might lose a leg because the hot blood in the leg is causing the fever or something. You never know what was going to happen. And then you could probably get a haircut after that because they were also usually a barber. Look, the guy who made your chair also made your confidants. So it was, it was a time to be alive, man.

That makes sense. Yeah. This is when there was work for the American people. You can always do something, especially if you were in the way. From the head. Yeah, yes. Well, this is this is New Hampshire. We're not out of West, but yeah, sure.

But they don't say it. Yeah, the initial reaction was from predictable from the children. Most of the children confronted with the stark bleached bones of a human form, recoiled in horror. Their hearts race, their imaginations would run wild. And the dim interior of the old house seems suddenly oppressive. Every shadow seemed to be a lurking threat. My own potential. That's my own little spin, you know, adding a little flavor there. Just I don't want you to think that came from Harold Checker. He didn't say that.

He said that he's like a poet. He's a poet of his time. I'm the poet God damn it. I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm in I'm and palpable fear of his friends, instead of offering words of reassurance, Herman seemingly decided to magnify their terror. He approached the skeleton, handling the bones with an unsettling familiarity as if they were old toys with a grin that hinted at delight. He began to wave the bones at his friends, making the most of their terror. And again, this is a time we're seeing a skeleton. Probably wasn't all that common unless you were going to the doctors. The terror wasn't just about the bones themselves, but also the way Herman manipulated the situation. Instead of being a mere participant in the

crew and the group's fright, he assumed the role of instigator, savoring the control he wielded over the emotions of his peers, something that would become more and more common as he got older. The manipulation and control over people sometimes was the whole point. For the other children, this incident wasn't just a passing scare, it was a glimpse into the freaking abyss that was H.H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H.

H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. H. I mean, but this is a step in a weird direction for this time. So I think he was definitely being... It's definitely weirder that he's like wielding the bone so freely than it is weird that he is messing with everybody because I know what it's like to get a rise at a people. Of course. I mean, yes, we do for a living. I do that on this show frequently with you, Mattis. Yeah, you absolutely do.

People think we're not friends because of it or something. It's like, no, no, no, but like that's, I want them to because then they'll pick a side and join me in my war against. We only do the show for the money at this point. I mean, we were just rolling in cash. Oh, yeah, we're, we're bitter. We're like an old band that only has, we play and then I, we go our separate way. And I, yeah, and life, but life's easy

for us. Let me tell you. Yeah. We're, we're coasting off the shit. Don't watch. And while this particular story is just kind of like a small stitch in the tapestry of his, if this man's life, it's one of the only stories we have witnesses of, which is why it's one of the more important ones to kind of reaffirm some of the rumored things that he would do, that we don't have a lot of witnesses for, because again, this is the 1870s and these people are long dead and really people weren't talking about it as much as they probably should have. And about the one of the things I also wanted to touch on before moving on to him getting a little older is his relationship with his family.

It's like I said earlier, less definitively known about his relationship with his immediate family during his formative years. But some accounts suggest that he might have been the victim of strict and potentially abusive upbringing while others hinted at a more typical 19th century household. So we have split sources on this. Either he came from a home that was just normal for the for like the time, or he was getting beat regularly by his father who was an alcoholic. And if that was the case, it's very possible that there was some head trauma involved at some point if the violent recountings are correct. The issue is we just don't know.

So are you going with that the long lasting head trauma? This one's saying like if you have it on your bingo board, I just don't think this is good enough to give it, but you know, you're playing by your own rules. You can stamp, stop it if you stamp it if you want. It's fine. What do you, what do you think the, the percentage of children that we're getting hit was at this time? And you're like, oh my God, so many of them. I imagine all of them, like 90%. You're like, you're saying like either he was beat as a child or he had a normal upbringing

for a child in the 19th century. Let me just say beat to a point where he caused him some actual like injuries to the head or something. Okay. Well, yeah, I don't know. I have no idea. But yeah, you're right. I mean, but that's the thing too, right? It's a, your point is something we talk about in every Frecken cereal killer series is just, just because you were being hit by as a kid and beaten abused doesn't give you the right to then go fucking

kill people because your feelings, you can't handle your feelings as an adult anymore. Yeah. But to be fair, I don't really think that's where they're coming from. Most no, no, no, it's an excuse. I agree with you. I think it's a lot of time. It's an excuse. Only the head trauma part is of particular interest. If these, if these rumors were true, then yeah, like I said, it's possible the man did have a head injury. We just simply do not know about. But Gilminton's morning haze often witnessed children hustling to school with laughter. Other stories tell of him walking alone behind others without like with a dead glazed look on his face. A glazed look in his eye and

not a care on his face one woman would say. And it's just like whether you could take that as a bit of evidence or you it's up to you. When it came to school itself, however, he was a very, very smart boy. Mathematics was often a subject that makes people want to rip their hair out, including myself in school. I was terrible at math. It was, I, lucky I passed. But for Herman, it was simple. To him, it seemed like he was, it was like something like a symphony to him. Numbers just made sense, math just made sense. He didn't even just fucking like, like, as an example, he didn't just solve math problems. Like in one instance, while his peers were grappling with the complex, with complex arithmetic, Kerman not only presented a solution in half the expected time for the teacher, leaving

them momentarily, it's like surprised. His method wasn't just correct, but it was more efficient than the traditional approach that was being given to him. The numbers like spoke to him. It was very, very bizarre. Interesting. But on top of that, so did literature. This dude would not only invite books, but he could recite Shakespeare and Milton, not merely as wrote repetition, but with a depth of understanding of the word, meaning of the words behind it, especially for somebody that's only in his like 10, 11 years old. He would often give impromptu interpretations of classical texts and sometimes provided perspective that even his instructors hadn't considered.

And while this would be fascinating for somebody, maybe they have potential, they could go to college early if there was modern day, they just clearly of a higher level of intelligence than the average person. Instead of him leaning on that, he began to use it as a weapon. He saw people as inferior and would use his now ego

as it grew and his knowledge of things beyond even those of his age to manipulate the situation, to keep people kind of under his heel even if they didn't understand it. It was fascinating. Again, as a child, he was beginning to understand this stuff, which is just bizarre. Yeah, for some reason, Herman, while reading the books, also wanted to understand the why behind a lot of what was being he was reading.

During a science demonstration where a teacher showed the properties of different chemicals, Herman not only predicted the outcomes, but supposedly also proposed alternative methods to achieve the same results. This wasn't mere bookish knowledge of true, but it was an intuitive grasp of scientific principles. Like he could like apply stuff. Yes, insane. With expertise. And all of this uncanny intelligence

on textbook education wasn't just confined there. He also had the unfortunate uncanny knack for understanding human behavior. He could navigate social situations with the finesse of like a diplomat. He's just a full on sociopath, basically. Full on. For example, when a disagreement broke out among his peers, Herman would often position

himself as the mediator between them, not necessarily to resolve the conflict though, but to steer it in a direction beneficial to him. Like he just became the mediator. In another instance, when a fellow student claimed to have lost a prized possession, Herman miraculously found it, earning gratitude and admiration, even though whispers suggested that he likely was the one that fucking stole it in the first place. He's all about manipulating these people and getting praise and feeling like he can lured over them. Sure.

The societal fabric of Gilminton steeped in Puritan values, emphasized the virtues of honesty, hard work and community service. Permanent on the outside, easily seemed to embody these principles, at least again on the surface. He was often at the forefront of community projects, volunteering for church events, and even delivering passionate readings from the Bible. People marveled at his maturity and depth, commenting at how blessed the Muget family was to have such a prodigious son.

Think about this, man. Like even if the family knows that he's doing these things, the outside community loves this boy. It isn't until he becomes a teenager when the, like I said earlier, when it's, they're unable to look away from the weirdness of it. Does he have a problem? But as he's a kid, this dude is just doing everything that he's so quote unquote, supposed to do as a good kid.

And then he's a fucking, but everybody also knows that he's ripping these cats guts out. That's well, I did. Well, yeah, well, as, as the kids are whispering that around this time, the adults wouldn't start coming to grips with that until after he leaves the town. Whoa. Okay, that's, I mean, that's still just, again, like I said earlier, the adults are still seeing it,

but they're doing like, I don't see it, I don't see it. You're just pretending like, I'm just saying, how do you do those sort of like mental gymnastics of like? Yeah, absolutely. People can do both 100%. Yet those who looked closely could still see the duality in his actions. His involvement wasn't driven by altruism, but by an understanding of societal expectations. And he knew that in a town like Gilminton, reputation was the fucking currency. And he was amassing

as much of a fortune as he fucking could. And as the years went by, Herman's brilliance became even more pronounced, but so did the undercurrents of his darker tendencies. The community enamored by the shine of his intellect often missed the shadows that trailed behind. And as he transitioned from boyhood to adolescence, those shadows deepened, presaging the tempest that was soon to come. But he, thank you. I will say at the source, presaging just so you know, but he would have soon leave this small town for greener

pastures. And the vast landscapes of Herman's life, his foray into the medical world was more than just academic, but I would consider this a turning point, illuminating the path of malevolence that he'd very, very eagerly come to walk. What's great about this and sort of like psychological, almost mechanical way is, you know, you can see the trajectory of obsessed and good at math, right? You can see the idea of looking at the way things work. You can see how, you know, the way he treats other people, they're not people, they're things, right? There's a lot here that just,

again, that bingo sheet is incredible because it's pretty much accurate in that, and it's free on Patreon, go get it. But this guy literally is just going through all of the stereotypical serial killer, like, you know, the way he just even wants to control people because again, controlling people and manipulating a situation is, you know,

it's almost like evil Dr. House. It's literally more, it literally it's more yardier. Yeah, yeah. It's more yardier, right? Yeah, this would be the more yard he's been off. It's literally more yard where he is just like, I see the math of how people work. And now that I've learned it, I can use that and manipulate them much like I would manipulate a frog that was dead. Things like that. It's absolutely villainous as shit. It's great. Like in a bad way.

Yeah, but again, cartoon villainy and it just continues on from there. But as as he graduates school and is prepped for college and looking at this, like I said, this turning point that I see it as when entering the medical world, he finally leaves his small town of Gilmont and moves to Burlington, Vermont, when Herman would first step onto the campus of the University of Vermont, and he was brimming with anticipation excited to dive into the medical world. The institution sprawling green lawns and gothic arches would paint, it kind of paints the picture of perfect academia, like the college that everybody thinks of when you go to a prestigious school.

The pre-med program here was touted as one of the best in the region, but for someone like Herman, who's intellect, often outstripped out of his peers, the curriculum soon began to feel stifling. The lectures while informative lacked the depth and rigor he craved, and E. Gernford challenged an realm where he could truly test the bounds of his potentials. And it would move to the halls of the University of Michigan's esteemed Department of Medicine and Surgery, where a new figure would emerge, a student whose ambitions were far from academic. See, a university in Vermont wasn't enough, so he went to the University of Michigan,

and this was no ordinary medical student, of course. It would be the serial killer H. Holmes. And while most students buried their heads in their books, young Holmes had a far more macabre interest, the freshly deceased. Whisperers snaked through the corridors of the university that Holmes wasn't just studying cadavers, that he was actively stealing that. He was stealing Cadevars. And not for some youthful mischief or morbid fascination purpose, but for a purpose that was not as gross as you might think. What do you think he's stealing Cadevres

for before I give you the actual answer? Look at him, study him, learn more about. I don't think this is a sexual thing. Again, I think this dude is like, you were corrected, it's not a sexual thing. Yeah, this dude is straight up just, I am the Moriati of this era and all of it. I will learn what I can of these humans. Right? I feel like that. That's that guy. Do you think the same Alex? More, you said less, less gross

than I might think. Less gross than you might think. Dead body tea party. What? Dead body tea party. You're both wrong, oddly. That's not what he was doing with these bodies. He was stealing them, but for something, I guess, maybe I would consider more sinister in the real world, insurance scams. What? Yep, he was stealing bodies for insurance scams. He really is more, this guy is more and more yardier than I could be. Yup, he's legit like a Batman villain. Yes, Holmes with a cold and calculating mind would conningly just just figure these stolen bodies, making it seem as if they had met with the tragic accidents. And then with the audacity that only Holmes could

muster with his ego and superiority complex, he'd claim their insurance money taking it all the way to his bank, laughing along the fucking way. He would just steal bodies and just like, it's like a crime you can only get away with. That's like an 1860s, 1880s crime. You have to have no soul, first of all, to do this crime. Yep. And secondly, yeah, and secondly, it's such an old, timey crime.

Right. It's a an old timey crime. Right. It's a dastardly deed. There are also tales that Holmes would head out if there were no bodies in the college fresh from the steel to go out into the moonlight, shovel in hand and dig up bodies. The question is if these tales are true or not, where the fog's rolling in, the sounds of the distant hooting owl. These stories are spine tingling as they may be for people who really, and these are active stories that people truly believe. They blur the line between what is actual fact and the folklore that

is sprung up around H. H. Holmes over the many years. Yeah, Holmes saw the alert in the dead, not just for the thrill, but for the potential monetary gain as we've learned. But it was also, but was he also truly the graveyard lurker, the nocturnal like creature that many believe him to be? There's just another layer of legend woven into his fabric of life, already brimming with genuine horror. One thing is indisputable. Holmes life was a twisted tapestry of deceit manipulation, cold blooded calculation, and whether he was a grave robber

driven by dark desires or just somebody who saw the dead as a means to financial ends, we don't know. It is what we do know is that we don't know. There are no physical facts or witnesses to him digging up graves. However, Holmes claims he did. But a lot of what Holmes did after he was caught was filled with his legend. He very much took that opportunity to build his legend. I'm going to be Jack the Ripper. Very much. Yeah, he very, yeah, exactly.

Regardless, he never got kicked out of school for it. He never got caught for it. And during his academic pursuit, Herman's life took a significant turn personally as well. Enter Clara Lovering, a delicate woman with soft features who entered this man's life. Why does she have like a, with the name of like a character from a TV show? Exactly. That's what I was my same thought. What are we going to name this love, love interest?

How about Lovering? Um, Clara. Perfect. What is happening ring? Claire. Perfect. What is happening here? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's how people described her.

People had a weird thing with describing people with soft features, hard features. Remember, whose mom, true crime in this time period was like running the shop for the dad and people described her as a strong, like, like, heavy set woman. Just like they have no qualms weirdly objectifying the way they describe women in this time. Their courtship to the external world, just like when he was a child, seemed idyllic. Whisperers of the handsome medical student and his beautiful bride filled the corridors of the university and they exchanged vows and soon after, like most who get married around this time, were quickly blessed with a boy.

A son, but behind closed doors, the veneer of domestic bliss, often cracked. Kerman, the doding husband and public, was a tempest of anger at home. Seriously? His unpredictable moods and violent tendencies became increasingly evident and Clara initially blinded by love soon confronted the harrowing truth. Her husband was not the man that she thought he was. And yeah, seriously, like it just feels like another part of common. Well, this isn't as like as common because we had Bundy get married and like have a life

but he was like a good dad. So like, yeah, I thought that he had Bundy get married and like have a life, but he was like, a good dad. So like, yeah, I thought that he was going to be kind of like the perfect husband. I said a good dad with air quotes that nobody could see, so make sure I didn't actually, he's not actually a good dad. Uh, but yeah, he was a, uh, very violent, but, you know, again, it's a time where I imagine a lot of domestic abuse happened and people just fucking kept shut about it. But so yeah, I mean, she kind of got a look at who he really was. And rumors, of course, would begin to seep through the community.

Whisperers of hermins in fidelity began to sprout up and grow loudly quickly. Tales of his nocturnal escapades became common knowledge. And instances of his violent outburst towards Clara became frequent gossip around town. No longer are they in a small town desperate to keep their darker secrets quiet from the world, but in a world of students from all over who rumored was entertainment. Clara mustering all her strength decided to prioritize her and her son's safety, and in that she fled, leaving behind the grandeur of Michigan, the shadows of her husband's misdeeds, and returning to the familiar embrace of New Hampshire. And

as she retreated, Herman remained undeterred, his dual life of academic brilliance and sinister undertakings continuing unabated. A trajectory of his life would now set in stone. And as Michigan's landscapes faded into his rear view, Chicago's skyline loomed heavily, setting the stage for the next chapter of this man's nefarious tale, where he would get a job and graceiate himself to the locals and build a wonderful hotel, one that would be packed with visitors from around the world, coming to the Chicago fair, or if their disappearance happened, no one would know or question, and there would be no one looking for them, a place he built on his own,

the castle of death. Yo, that's we'll pick up next time on the such a, it's such a ratchet up from where we're at right now. We're just at like a mean guy who does some bullshit for every once in a while too. His castle of death at the world's fair. Clara leaving him at the end again, him finishing school was it literally for me, it's on the outside. It seems like it just unlocked whatever pretense he had about not doing what he loves, which was fucking poking at bodies that were alive at one point. And really he goes ham and it does ratchet up quickly. And just so you know, his scamming

doesn't stop either. His entire life in Chicago is based on him scamming his way at people at a money and scamming his way in. And very more, he already like ways and being able to convince those people when they come looking for the money to not pick the money. Like he's very good at convincing the girls. So insane. So we'll be picking up with that with a second and final part of Derald H. Holmes next time, not next week, but in two weeks. Thank you all so much for listening. We're off to do a mini-sode.

And after this, go to patreon.com. Don't you want to be on the party? Because let me tell you what, if last time was the new spring, this is Empire Strikes Back. Go boy. Oh boy. Oh, right. I was like, what is happening? All right.

Yeah, good bye, everybody. Good bye. Hey, bye. Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside and delgying on our porch one night enjoying ourselves. I needed to go to the bathroom, so I stepped back inside and after a few moments I hear my wife go, holy shit get out here! So I quickly dash back outside and she's looking up the sky and fall. I look up to her and there's a 1 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 2 nd 1. Draw the line on the left side of the eye. 2. Draw the line on the left side of the eye. Thank you.