Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 22 - Missing 411 Part 1

Episode Date: February 18, 2019

Missing 411 Story time. Strange occurrences surrounding those who up and vanish in National Parks. Conspiracy? Paranormal? Or easily explained? Let's find out. GET NEW MERCH HERE - https://theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati  You guys got some weird stuff goin' on. Soundcloud - @chilluminatipodcast  Jesse Cox - www.youtube.com/jessecox  Alex Faciane - www.youtube.com/user/Thenationaldex Art Commissioned by - mollyheadycarroll.com

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Okay, I mean I would. Put a sign out there. Yeah, close the door. Nude in progress. Nude in progress. Nude in progress. All right, well, on that, welcome everybody to the Chilluminati podcast, episode 21 or 22, rather. I am incredibly excited for this episode because the past two and a half weeks have been nothing but me looking into these cases. What we're going to be covering today is something by the name of Missing411, but before we dive in, as always, I am one of your hosts, Mike, also known as Mathis. With me, as always, is Alex Fasiana himself. How are you, sir? Hello. I'm very crisp today. You are very crisp today. Even for us. I'm super crisp. I'm on a different mic. New mic, new setup, old mic, new setup, old mic. What? One of those two.

Huh? I don't know. I don't know. One mic is the same. The other mic is different. No, one world, one mic. One mic is the, your, your host mic is the same. My mic is different. Okay. Yeah, you're not speaking into me. One mic, one world. One love. Let's get together. Mr. Worldwide. Mr. Worldwide. That's me, Mr. Worldwide. And our other host, obviously, is the one and only, the illustrious, the ever entertaining, the unflappable. The unflappable. I cannot flap. I, the unsinkable, Molly Cox. I can't do it. I've never flapped. I don't know how to flap. Unflappable. I'm going to flap you today, man. Today's a flap. You're going to flap me. I don't even know what that means and I'm terrified. I'm going to flap you, dude. I'm going to this man.

You won't hear of it. That's his thing. Oh boy. Okay. All right. So my first question to you, gentlemen, before we really dive in is, do you even know what Missing 411 is? This is something that's relatively, was relatively new to me. And once I started diving in, it was a game over. Missing 411? Yeah. Missing 411. Specifically, it's the name of the book series that all of this is kind of based on. Oh, interesting. It is my, it is my understanding that it is a like repository of like X files of missing people's cases, basically. That's, that's, you know, that's a, that's a great pitch. So does this have anything to do with the people who go into force and vanish? Is that what this is? It is, it is all national parks and, and that kind of thing. Gotcha. Okay. Which is very

important, which we'll talk about obviously. Ooh, is the government behind this? There's, I wouldn't say the go, well, I mean, that's a theory, obviously, but I wouldn't necessarily, what makes it weird is that the government might be behind it. What makes it weird is the, is the, the national park services and their unwillingness to release the files to anyone to do any research and the fact that they don't even keep records for a while. Oh, I thought you're about to say, the government isn't the problem. It's the national park service. Like some ranger somewhere as a single tear going down his eye. God bless the national park service for fuck's sake. Well, what's interesting is they have no oversight over themselves. So they can do whatever they want

and nobody checks, like puts a check on them. And the way they react to some of these missing people cases is bizarre in and of itself and that they just don't seem to care or they don't really do a lot to put any research into it. And when other like investigators come along looking to, to request these files, some of the time they're just outright denied and when asked why they're given no reason. Did you ever see the movie The Endless? I have not. Oh man. Like I, I, I've seen the movie. I have not obviously heard all the information you have to share yet today, but if you're feeling after this podcast, if you're a listener out there and you want to find something to like sort of like, you know, like stoke your fires a little bit, like, follow this.

Yeah, go watch The Endless. That was actually recommended to me while I was watching the movie. I did watch was actually just the missing 411 documentary on about three or four of the cases there. You can get it, you can stream it on Amazon Prime for four bucks. So you can just, it's an hour and a half. It's a good watch. But before we get to dive in, I want to be a big thank you to two of our assistant researchers, one being Nathan. He helped out and actually wrote the outline for a lot of the cases from the movie directly, as well as Judy for sending me because the missing 401 books are out of print. So she hooked me up with the library she has access to, and I was able to hook me up with this book, which is also where a good chunk of the information

is coming from, as well as other other sources that we that we want that we used as well is just some Google map stuff to kind of correlate some of the theories out there and move on.com surprisingly interesting to use. I wouldn't say reliable, but interesting to use and a bunch of other articles move on. That's a UFO research organization. Oh, okay. Because of course aliens are in this a little bit if it always comes back to aliens. Yeah, it does. It does. It's not right, Jesse. No comment. All right. Well, let's just start at the beginning. So what is missing 401 one for those who don't know? Well, to play on words and numbers in a way, obviously 401 is information missing 401 meaning missing

information, because a lot of these cases have no answers like actually on record in law enforcement they're on all unsolved cases they there's no definitive answers to what caused these people to go missing. And for the cases that have bodies found, they still have no answers to what caused them what killed them how they even got to where they were found. So missing 401 is actually just a huge swath of missing person cases that take place in major national parks around the world. While what we'll be covering is pretty exclusively US focused in general, it's important to understand that this kind of thing is happening all over the world. While many people go missing every year, not only in our national in our normal everyday

cities and towns, but in national parks, of course, the specific cases covered by missing 401 and the author, David Paul leads, our cases were almost the majority of them. Well, the majority of them are never found alive. Very few are and those are also equally intriguing for their explanation as to what happened when they went missing. That's what I'm dying for the most to be honest. Well, straight up, most of the ones have no recollection of even what happened or how they went missing. And then the ones that have some recollection, it makes no sense. None of what they say makes sense of what happened and how they were found again. I was there and Taylor Swift was there. And we were getting ready to climb half dome. And I think I put something in my

wrist and one one as just a quick example. He said he remembers putting his foot like taking a step into the field. He actually went missing in a field like he had walked away and the person he was with looked away for maybe a minute, looked back and he was gone. He said he remembers putting his taking a step and just seeing his foot disappear completely and not seeing his like his own foot, which is bizarre in and of itself. But again, obviously, that's hearsay. We have no evidence of that, but he was found luckily and he and whatnot. So pushing onward because I can easily just start going off on tanges. This thing is going to be very hard for me to stay on topic because this is such a wild, wild thing. These cases aren't just random missing

persons either. Each one fits into a very specific set of criteria. So that's very important to know when we're talking about these missing cases. A bunch of these these criteria that I'm going to go over here in a second are are part of this missing persons cases. A lot of the a lot of people say David Pauli cherry picks his his missing persons and I agree to an extent. But I think he's he's trying to fit where he's he's looking at these missing persons cases and seeing the ones that that seem to have this running narrative through them. More importantly, these have been happening for decades as far back as the the 40s and 50s all the way up to today. They're still happening today. The most recent case that we'll be covering today happened in 2015 and is still going to court.

The last update I found was February 7th, so a week ago, 10 days ago or so. So these things are still happening now today. It hasn't stopped. So that in mind, it's certainly a while there are certain cases I've read and studied while doing research. I firmly believe there are many cases that I firmly believe lack anything paranormal per se, but still are mysterious. There's certainly undeniable. It's certainly undeniable, rather, that these cases as a whole are incredibly strange. And for that reason, very inviting for somebody who has a fascination with these unsolved mysteries to dive into. A quick bit about David Pauli, especially because he is the author and really kind of bring this up so you understand the kind of person we're dealing with. Sure. He is a bit of

a cryptozoologist and conspiracy theory man himself. He is a former police officer of 16 years. He worked as a detective and worked alongside the FBI for many of those years that has all been confirmed. And he went on after the police force to write a couple of book series. The first one or one of the ones, the important one is missing 411, where he interviews a bunch of the families and he looks into the files that he can get his hands on. He goes out to the places they went missing. How is it organized? That was going to ask you like, is it like, is it like by case? So each book is by region. And then there are they tell you talks about individual cases, basically throughout the whole book. It's basically just case files. So that's missing 411,

like missing 411, California. Yeah. So this one right here is missing 411 Western United States and Western Canada. He has one on Eastern United States. He has a couple of books on very specific states where the missing people's there is just a lot in and of itself. He also has some that cover other countries as well. But he has, I think about four or five books on missing 411. But the thing that I, you know, it'd be irresponsible to throw out. He also has written a few books on Bigfoot. Now, before we go, oh God, Bigfoot, it's not, it's not that he has evidence that Bigfoot exists. It's that very similar. Exactly. They're all porn stories. He has these huge fantasies about being railed by a big, hairy, big, who doesn't, who doesn't, that's gone out.

He's gone on record. He's like, I know it's not real. It's just my thing. Let me do that. That's how I get most of my dates, fantasies like that. So yeah. You're like, do you like Bigfoot? Yeah. Are you into Bigfoot? Dude, in your headcanon, can Bigfoot play guitar? Or what's his favorite food? Or, okay, this is a bad bit. This is a bad bit. I'm backing out on this one. All right. We'll allow you. We'll allow it. So the thing about the Bigfoot books is they're very similar to the missing 411 books where they are interviews of people who have seen Bigfoot. And he interviews all the people who saw them. He'll go out to the places that they claim they saw him. So it's collections of interviews

that he's done with people. It's like journalism more than it is like a conspiracy theory book. Yeah. The biggest thing about David Pauli is that you need to understand that makes me a little iffy on some of the things. He does try and make some very stringent, weird, loose connections. And we'll talk about that when we get into the criteria of where these missing people cases fall into. We can call that pulling abagans. Yes. Very, very much pulling abagans. Very much pulling abagans. He hears sounds and he's like, could this be the soul of the tortured housemaid struggling to fight off her attacker? Hard cut to Zach in a room. Possess me, ghost. Possess me. But I can't deny that there's a clear amount of passion and hard work put into these cases.

He's clearly very passionate about it. And if you want to read a book about Bigfoot, you can go, one of the books he wrote is called Bigfoot, The Hoopa Project. And it's all California Bigfoot sightings that people have rave reviews about. But you know, go check that out. They're great in-depth interviews and details and very interesting stuff, even if some of it is iffy and arguable that it's even worth talking about in those interviews specifically. Other than that, this is the criteria we're going to be looking at here when we're talking about the missing 401 cases. All of these fit multiple of these criteria. So one is a rural setting. The missing people of these cases all disappeared in rural settings, not cities,

not towns, not a downtown area. They're all outdoors and in national parks. Furthermore, there are usually no witnesses when they end up going missing. Someone's head is turned for a minute or two and they look back and the person is gone without a trace. Somebody said they're going to go hike up ahead for a couple of minutes and they'll meet them at the next checkpoint. And then when they get up there, they're not there and then they're never found again. They usually also go missing an area where there's significant cover, plants, rocks, overhangs, and difficult terrain. That's not weird. That's actually kind of, in my opinion, makes sense. That's probably what you would expect. Yeah, you would also make sense. Dogs are also another large part of this

criteria. These victims usually disappear. A lot of them disappear with dogs. Sometimes the dog is also never found. Sometimes the dog comes back by itself. Sometimes the dog goes home and is never with the victim and very, very rarely the dog is found with the person that's missing. Again, I don't particularly put too much weight into that. It doesn't really scream weird to me. The weird part or semi-weird part is that the other part that's important about the dogs is that when search and rescue is brought in, many of them have obviously a bunch of tracking hounds, none of them can pick up a scent. The dog is given a shirt or a shoe or something that belongs to them, usually a day after the person goes missing and the dog either refuses to do the job,

it refuses to track, or it just can't pick up a scent. So they're borderline useless in helping find these people. That is absolutely crazy. It's weird. Now we get to the stuff that you consider kind of bizarre, but maybe paranormal, but definitely not completely right-offable. This is the first weird one I kind of chalk up to that, and that is storms. In a lot of these cases, shortly after the person is missing, literally we're talking hours at most a day, reports of storms hitting the area seem to occur constantly with these cases. They happen all seasons throughout the entire year, and a lot of them happen when it seems like there shouldn't have been a storm at all, and then a storm just kind of shows up within hours and causes delays for

the search and rescue teams, eliminates tracks of these people going somewhere, and completely can eliminate the scent of the person as well as everything is washed away via rain or snow or what have you. Now is there anywhere that we can look at a graphic of this for consistency's sake? In the book specifically? The way that you're listing it off, it just sounds so specific, and I'm just wondering along a trend. Do you see everything that fits into that criteria? This is the map. You guys, you viewers can't see it, but these are all the areas. You can see like circular clusters that happen all over. Yeah, it does look like there's something, there's like a causal thing. Okay, no, I'm probably gonna side with Jesse on this one.

Storms don't also tick anything for me. So far, and I know, again, I'm very open to mind about this stuff because I think it's fascinating, and I think that there's clearly not enough information, but just going off what we've talked about, I've tried to like, I've written down stuff, I've tried to think about this from moment one, just saying like storms happen relatively either shortly after or within hours, right? Or it was rural, and there was no one around, or they were with animals, right? Or they were like with a dog, and all these different things. If you ever have the time to talk to anyone who has ever gotten lost, like really lost, not that fun, like I'm exploring a city and let's get lost in the city,

like lost, lost. When you go out into the woods, if you have no training, it's easy to get lost in the woods. It's easy to get separated from people. It's easy if there's a storm, it's even worse, right? And if you have an animal, the animal runs off, you chase after that animal, right? So there's a lot of things that could happen. Like the thing is just that the wilderness is dangerous. Yeah, I mean, right now, unless I'm convinced otherwise, all of these disappearances are just very unexplainable. Like we have no reasons why it happened, but circumstantial evidence, you can kind of be like, okay, well, if you discount aliens, bigfoot, all the things that are fun to think about, in theory, they could have just fallen down a ravine, and they'll never be

found because no one knows to look there, right? Or they chased after, I was looking at 411 stuff, and I was trying to figure out all the different things they were talking about, and I was like, okay, because there's got to be forums on this and Reddit posts and things like that, and there are many, many, many, but a lot of them also included stuff like, hey, here's my experience and how it's very easy to get lost for hours and not be able to be found. Like that's just one guy's thing. And then the guy replies like, yeah, dude, I got lost, I was with friends, and I went a different direction on an accident and was lost for 20 minutes and couldn't hear anyone, right? Things like that, and he's like, it's a miracle we found each other. One guy got lost and he heard animal noises

and thought he was being chased, so he ran further in the wrong direction because he was scared. Like there's, yeah, plenty of reasons why it can happen. I agree. The stuff that catches me is like where they end up finding a lot of the bodies. Well, that's what I'm interested in. That's why I'm going to shut up, but like just from the get go, I'm already like, okay, I might discount 99% of these, but if there's 1% where it's crazy, I'm still in. Oh, absolutely. Well, that's kind of like what I'm saying, though. It's like, yes, it's easy to say like the wilderness, but that's why I'm kind of interested in how consistent the cases are. Sure. Yeah, so that's the other thing too, going over these cases, and I think a lot of the reason

people kind of like throw doubt over Paulie's work is because he covers so many cases that it is impossible not to read some of these or listen to some of these as the case may be and think, okay, well, that doesn't seem as far-fetched as the one maybe we read about, we talked about last week. There are ones that stick out, like as an example, a two-year-old boy went missing, his grandfather turned his back for a second, or he went out on a trip with a few of his friends and whatnot. Where the boy was last seen and where his body was found are insane. Do any of you guys ever see survivor man, Nola Stroud, like him? Yeah, yeah. The guy who's not Bear Grylls? Yeah. Yeah, the guy who's not Bear Grylls, exactly, exactly. He's actually in that documentary,

and they talk about that specific case, and where the boy was found was 550 feet up, a about 12-mile walk from where he was last seen. With all of his clothes intact, no blood, no evidence of an animal had carried him away, no signs of struggle, and just a shoe and his shirt and just the top half of his skull, all the way at the top of a really rocky mountain that would take experts to climb up and find. In the shoe itself, he had been found three years after he went missing, and the shoe itself, which looked like it had not seen any weather whatsoever, but it was sitting right on the open. Like that kind of stuff is the stuff that's like, that's really, really strange. I'm sorry, the top half of his skull? Yeah, the skull cap.

That's all they found? That's all, and a tooth, one tooth. Well, can I, can I ask a question? The top half of his skull, a tooth, a shoe, and one piece of his clothing, which were his pants. And this was three years after he went missing? Three years after he went missing, a couple of hikers found the body. Well, the skull cap and a tooth called the cops in, they did DNA tests, and it was him. Three years is a long time for a lot of crazy shit to have happened, right? Sure, definitely, but it's strange that his shoe didn't seem like it didn't, it saw anything in there, and there was no evidence of a struggle or a fight in any way. I guess. Strange, but let's get back to the criteria, and we'll talk about a couple of cases

as well, because again, there's a lot to cover here, we'll probably do multiple episodes on it, just because it's bizarre. So the story time, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So the storms themselves, kind of strange, but again, can be written off, weather changes happen very rapidly, or all over the world, it's not a big deal. Most of the disappearances happen in the afternoon, always between two and five p.m. That doesn't really say anything to me personally, but that's another big thing. When the bodies are found, they're usually found just outside of or in a swamp or a briar patch, with rescuers usually confused or baffled how a child would even got to where the body was found in the first place. If a person was found alive, which is super rare,

they are usually found in a semi-conscious state, and when asked about what happened, they have either no recollection or such a bizarre recollection or disjointed recollection that there's no trace of what actually happened to them can really be put down, other than the fact that they were found alive. And found alive, they're consistently like it's the same type of places that they're found as when they're found dead? Some of them. Yeah, some of them. Some of them are just, they're wandering in a field somewhere or face down in a field, a couple of them who are just semi-translucent or rather semi-conscious. It's also important to note too, scientifically, that if a person or a human goes a long period of time without food and water,

that hallucinations can happen. Sure. It's very common. They could be semi-conscious in that way. These cases specifically are people found within a day or two where that kind of thing wouldn't have taken hold right away. So there's that distinct separation. It kind of explains that thing away. Yeah, more or less. They're not gone long enough where hallucinations would have started to happen. Right. The other one of the last bits is usually their clothing is missing, almost always. Big, significant pieces of their clothing are missing, jackets, pants, or the person completely strips naked for no known reason. They leave their clothing far away and their bodies are found much further away from where their clothing is, and their clothing has been undone

and clearly taken off, not ripped off or ripped apart by an animal, but that they actually, the person who went missing, looks like they unbuttoned their pants, zipped down their zipper, untied their shoes. All of their clothing was removed visually, at least looks like willingly. That happens to a lot of these people. Like, regardless of temperature? Regardless of temperature. That's, which is important, because as we've talked about in the Dialet Talk pass incident, paradoxical and dressing is something that can happen. Yeah, and you're super cold. You start to take your clothes off because your brain is confused. So the ones that happened in the winter, I kind of like chalk up to that, but it's the ones that

happened in the summer where they're just taking off their pants or they take off their hiking boots and then just leave. That happens, that happens for a majority of these cases no matter the season. The other big thing is that when the body is found, a lot of the time the body is found in an area where search and rescue people have searched thoroughly multiple times. Sometimes even having the body found next to a major trail that the search and rescue people had been tracking, traveling through and searching every single day of their attempts to be found. And then months later the body is found on the trail that they had been on multiple times or in a field they searched multiple times. Which is kind of bizarre. And then the last thing that is that the people

who go missing in these particular cases are usually one of three, sometimes a combination of these particular things. Very young, disabled or very old. Usually nowhere in between. The young kids are usually either partially deaf or maybe fall in the spectrum of autism a little bit. The old folks, they're like they're so old they can't really walk. Then being able to, one case talks about a hunter who him and his friend went out hunting and it was going to be one of his final hunts or he was too old to get up and actually properly hunt. So they sat him in a chair and they actually rounded up the wildlife towards his area and when they got back he was missing. All of the stuff had been just left on the ground including his gun and he was never found again.

No tracking dogs could find him. There were no tracks of him walking into the woods. It just looked like to the trained eyes of the search and rescue that he was just plucked out of thin air and could never be found. So it's not necessarily mentally disabled. It's not necessary. No, no, no. When I say disabled I mean more along the lines of like it's a physical disabled man sometimes in a wheelchair. Some type of affliction, some type of like health issue. Yes, which is important because a lot of predators prey on you know the weakest or the sickest or the youngest of a pack or something like that. That seems to fall into that particular idea of a predator plucking off or picking off the smaller weaker type of prey. But that's the general

gist of the criteria that these missing people typically fall into. So with that said we're going to start working and looking into a couple of cases. One that's not solved and one where I have a theory. And then after that we'll talk about other wild theories that people talk about including government and alien stuff and then more normal theories that people have. Can I throw out a theory real quick? Oh please do. Predator. That's not you. You say that. You say that. But that falls into the alien theory of some creature that either we've never truly discovered. Are you telling me that that's written on this outline sheet? Predator? Not predator specific. Yeah, I mean which predator. But like most dangerous

game type situation. Right, like we are being hunted by something that is greater than us. Because let's be real. It's which predator. I love this podcast. Yeah, I mean one predator was clearly killed by Schwarzenegger. Right, right, right. So come on. I'm thinking like one of the ones that's on the ship at the end that gives them the old ass gun. Oh, predator two. Okay. Yeah. Is it the super predator? Yeah, I heard it was terrible. This is vague. This version is vague. I don't like it. Yeah, this is not a movie yet. This one anyway. So the first case we're going to talk about is about a boy by the name of Sammy Bullock happened in 2006. But Sammy was born on August 10 1998. And he and his father were traveling in October of 2006 when he's around

eight years old. Sammy was born with a mild form of autism and was passionate but very stubborn. Because of his autism, he had a fear of loud noises and bright lights in general. Him and his father, who his name is Kenneth, by the way, were really close, often taking long road trips through Oregon and would often pass through Crater Lake. I don't know if you've ever seen Crater Lake, but holy crap, that place is a beauty. Crater Lake is literally just a giant crater caused by a volcano thousands of years ago that has since filled with water. And it's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous. But I've seen pigs. I've never actually been there. I really would love to go. It's on my bucket list. Yeah, absolutely. Crater Lake is a heavily wooded area.

And in October, at least, it snowed around that time. September, October, it would snow pretty regularly around there. Sammy, being a rather bored kid on this particular trip, really wanted to play hide and seek as they pulled close to the cinder slope where Sammy had found a glint in the cinder that he thought to be gold. So we saw something and he was like, wanted to go check it out. And dad, you know, being a good dad is like, yeah, let's go check it out. While he was over there, has this bright idea to play hide and seek right away, I'd be like, oh, not just me and my son, but playing hide and seek in the wilderness feels like a terrible idea. But so if you're afraid of bright lights and that's what I was going to say, like

alone in the wilderness, the man throws like a kid would be gone out, gone, gone. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Um, something to keep in mind. I'm telling you, you hear that when you're when you're out in the wilderness, you hear noises that you don't think should exist. You run into Jesse taking a shower from one of those like portable hot bags. Yeah, but I'm like just running through the crater lake by himself. I get it. I get it. Big foot, big foot sighting right then and there. So he went out and to go to go look at the little glint in the rock and remember that the cinder slopes themselves, the cinder slopes face away from the lake. This isn't going to be important in a little bit, but the cinder slopes where they were doing this thing don't face toward

the lake. It faces away. Kenneth seeing his kid just randomly bolt after he saw the glinty thing and nearly get run over, runs after him, which Sammy probably thought was a game and continued to run for about 50 feet away from his dad. The biker, which caused a bunch of noise and caused the kid to bolt, which I completely forgot to write down prior to that. The biker was riding by, caused a bit of a startle. The kid ran. The dad thought he was playing a game, started chasing him. The kid kept running and got about 50 feet away from the dad and the biker stopped and watched this kid bolt and his dad running after him. So there was a witness there to see the kid run off. It wasn't just his dad and the kid. Somebody saw it happen. So, you know, it's not just the dad's

word and nobody else's. As Sammy crested over the hill and the father followed, as soon as he came over the hill, the kid was gone, just gone. And he was, keep in mind, he's only like 50 feet away. There were no tracks away from the crest of the hill aside from Kenneth's own shoes. The dad said, I never caught up with him. And at that point, he disappeared over the top somewhere and I lost him. Are we saying that he ran up the hill? Yep. Went over the hill. You see his, you see his feet go to the top of the hill. To the hill. He had eyes on him as he was going up the hill. Then he tracks tracks up the hill. That part there wasn't specified. Okay. He just saw his kid and he followed him up the hill. And then when he came up and over the hill, the kid was

just gone and there were no tracks. No footprints. No footprints. Nothing. Crazy. Other than Kenneth's own shoes. The dad's own shoes are the only thing that were leaving any tracks there. Immediately, a search party was formed of some 200 or so people and they combed an area of six square miles with search dogs and helicopters. Remember, these helicopters are using a flare system forward facing like infrared so they can see, you know, body heat and stuff running around. The problem is that they had to delay the search pretty much right away because that night, a massive snowstorm rolled in and any chance of finding Sammy alive had then just been lost. Maybe not then they accepted it, but once a snowstorm rolls in, it's pretty much, you know, it's over. What are you gonna do? Yeah.

The snowstorm that night left two feet of snow. Nothing that could be done about that. And from and from that, they did not search towards the lake and away from the lake, which is the way he ran. They did search the cinder slopes, but they didn't search the area around the slopes, specifically. They primarily focused on the steep cliffs and hills surrounding Crater Lake, which is a good idea, but their failure to search in an adequate time frame for the area further away from the cinder slopes likely doomed Sammy's body to not being found. And so you're saying it's been suggested that this is like a negligent search? It's possible that it is a negligent search. Okay. And that they the storm prevented them from going out. And when they searched,

they only search the cinder slopes. They never searched the area around the cinder slopes, assuming that he couldn't get that far. But I mean, a kid running in panic, I don't know, you know, like for me personally, you think of a kid running in for hours before a storm hits the dude, the kid, if he survived and get knocked out and buried under rocks or something on the cinder slopes, why would you not search beyond that area? Why would you not push out further? I mean, granted, they covered six square miles, which is a lot. But give a kid, you know, eight years old, who's running in panic, gets more panic, the more he gets lost, veers off course, maybe goes away from the cinder slopes. I just don't understand the thought

process behind not covering the area. I mean, I, I mean, obviously, yeah, we have to get deeper into it to like really understand the logistics of this. But I mean, I very much understand why you would not like from a, from logistical standpoint, you are looking at a child who's very young, who is suffering from some form of autism that I don't think any of the investigators know or the people that are out looking. So they're already, they're either under assumptions or they are under, like there's a lot of things that I think when you're looking for a kid, you're trying to think, what is this kid going to do? But you have no idea what this kid's going to do because you don't know what is going to scare him or what's going to cause him to do

whatever. And so you're trying to keep your, your, I don't want to say exploration, but your search down to a minimal area because at that point, when you get too wide, at that point, it's exponentially increases the, the chance for the amount of money needed, the amount of time, the amount of people, the amount, like eventually this is, you see this all the time, it's done in movies all the time. We're like, I'm sorry, man, we can't search for your husband anymore. He's just lost in the woods. And then, yeah, it just happens. So I feel, I feel bad, but it seems like it's very understandable why they would give up. I don't know that I blame them to justify like to somebody who cares about the kid, why you ever give up searching for the kid.

Right. Yeah. For sure. This, this particular example, while short, and we'll talk about theories here in a minute, is kind of a, the textbook case for these missing people in that it's a good example of how fast these people go missing. You know, the dad's chasing, we go over the hill in less than a minute, the kid is just gone. And that, that's all of, that's all of these cases that, that we'll talk about over the many episodes we'll probably do over the course of however long we end up doing it. All of these people who go missing, it's just almost instantaneous, like they turn a corner and he's gone, they go over ill, the person's gone of all ages, not just kids, but adults and elderly as well. The theories as to what happened, honestly,

the most probable theory, and I think the only covered a little bit is that he probably died from exposure from the sandstorm that hit a few hours later. They weren't able to get to him in time. They had to call off the search and rescue because of bad weather. He either got buried, was unconscious under rocks or what have you, and then ended up unfortunately probably dying from just weather exposure in a cave or face down somewhere. It doesn't really explain why the, it doesn't really explain everything, but it is certainly not a terrible explanation. It likely is what I mean. He's also eight. So what does an eight year old know about exposure and having to live, like I just, I don't know. Yeah, for sure. He's not going to make it. Yeah,

he's not going to survive a snowstorm unless it's a miracle. Yeah, exactly. Furthermore, there's the idea that maybe there was a wildlife encounter, mountain lion, bobcat, whatever have you, that they just, you know, saw a kid, scooped him up very quickly before you could say anything or scream out and then was gone, or the kid ran away and then, you know, hit his head on a rock and then an animal scooped up his body and took the body away beforehand. One of the things that wildlife tends to do is if they have their prey and then there's a lot of disturbance or is a lot of activity in the area, whether it be other wildlife or people, they will bury their food and then come back to it later, which would explain why they couldn't find the body over the course of

days searching because there was activity around the animal, just buried, you know, the body for later and then came back later and finished, you know, finished the job or ate the corpse's remains afterward. I don't necessarily think that's a bad explanation, though I know some people do. Those are probably the two most likely. What's the negative there? Is that not believable? Well, because a lot of the people hinge that theory on the mountain lion caught the kid immediately after it went over the hill. A lot of the reads that I have, like he just tackled the kid on the other side of the hillside. Yeah, like the mountain lion was there, saw the kid, took an opportunity while he could, grabbed the kid and ran off before the

dad could catch over the hill and see anything. Yeah, I mean, that's that's stupid. But to me, I don't know, it disappearing out of the search area, they're known to drag their prey, they're known to put it in a tree, they're known to do all these things. The other reason people don't like that theory specifically is because a lot of the time if the national services can't pinpoint a reason, they will just point to wildlife and say wildlife did it. Mountain lion killed him, mountain lion scooped him up or what have you. That's kind of like their textbook go to, I don't have an answer. There's just like no evidence, they're just kind of like, well, we do have killer creatures out here, yeah. Exactly, we've got big cats and bears and birds

that could scoop up a two year old or whatever, it's possible that that's it. As far as out there theories, stuff that I don't put too much weight into, but it's important to cover these theories just because they'll be important in other explanations. Because this is an entertainment show. Yeah, interdimensional rift is a big one and it is cited for a ton of these missing people's cases. The big reason is where the person goes missing and where the body is found later seems so weird and out of the ordinary, like Kid Corpse being at the top of 12 miles to the opposite direction of where he went missing up a giant cliff and he was only three years old and there's no signs of struggle. People love to jump to the dimensional rift, like he stepped into something,

maybe it's a paranormal phenomenon here on earth and all of a sudden he's somewhere else. I love this theory because he's so Victorian. It's so like Ambrose Beers or like, what's that movie? Picnic and Hanging Rock, like some freaky ass bullshit like that. Yeah, I love thinking about that. The national parks are weird. The thing for me as somebody who wants to put a little credence into these wilder theories just for entertainment value and the fact that maybe it's possible is that there could just be science on spacetime, whatever, that we just don't understand yet, where he accidentally stepped into a freaking weird rift whether interdimensional or not and then the person just ends up somewhere that they weren't before and now they are truly lost and

they end up just dying wherever they ended up getting quote unquote teleported to. I hate using the word teleport because it sounds like magic and I mean I guess it kind of is because we just don't have an understanding but it's an interesting thought and explains why a lot of the people who go missing in literal seconds just up and disappear with no sign, no shouting, no response. I know. What's in a game engine? Why not physics? Exactly. If we live in an assimilation, there's just a simulation glitching out. That's, then it's proof. We live in a Bethesda game. Yeah. We just teleporting everywhere. As far as 76 for real. Hell yeah. And obviously the other big one, weird one is aliens. I mean, yeah, all right. Sure. I'll let it linger, let it linger

a little bit. The reason this is important is because there were UFO sightings later in that month in the area. On October 31st, red and green lights on an egg-shaped craft were seen hovering before disappearing into the night in that area and over the years in Oregon, this type of craft would be seen over and over and over again by many different people with one in the very end of 2018 fitting that description just north of Crater Lake where the boy went missing. I'm saying it's a possibility. If these aliens are, if aliens are coming by and scooping people up, what better place to scoop up people than people who are camping with nobody around? Are there other, like what else was reported along with those UFO sightings, just sightings?

For that specific, just those sightings. Nothing like no abductions or anything like that? No abductions in the area, just sightings and such. Which, I mean, could mean nothing, could mean everything. Maybe the aliens scooped up these people and they fuck up the science experiments and accidentally kill them so they gotta drop them somewhere that makes them look like it was an accident. It happens. For aliens, you know, scientific accidents. Alien scientific accidents? Yeah, why not? All right, yeah, you know what? Fuck it. Chilluminati life, baby. Yeah. So the big case that we're going to talk about today is the one of Dior Kun's Jr.

So Dior Kun's Jr. is spoken about in the book that I read, as well as the 401 documentary that we watched. It's very interesting because the circumstances surrounding his disappearance and the explanation as to what is possibly going on in my own personal theory as to what I think happened are wild. So in 2015, Dior Kun's Sr., along with his wife Jessica Kun's, had decided to take a little family vacation with their grandfather Bob and his friend, his grandfather's friend Isaac to a spot they knew really well in the Tiber Creek Falls in Idaho near their own home of Lador, which I think the name of their town. I think it's Lador. It could be Lidor, but I call it Lador. Dean Kun's Jr. is going to obviously be the main focus of the story. He was a two-year-old boy

who was partially deaf in one ear. So that fits obviously one of the criteria of usually young and disabled people being the ones that ended up disappearing. The campsite they went to was surrounded on three sides with high mountains and where they were staying had a very small stream on one side and a thin forest on the other. Now it's important to know that from the creek, where the creek was, where this little river is, it's super shallow. They show it in the documentary. Not only that, but from where they were in that creek, you can actually see the picnic table of their campsite from the creek. So it's like right there. It is not a super far walk whatsoever. It's an eyesight of the camp. The first night of camping went off without a hitch with Bob and Isaac sleeping in the trailer

and the Dior family, wife and kid and husband sleeping in their car. But that morning, Jessica needed to head into town to get some feminine hygiene products while Dior senior, the father and Isaac, the friend, or should I say Dior senior, the grandfather and Isaac, the friend, planned to fish with Dior Jr. since he loved fish so much, specifically little fish like minnows and so on, and they were going to bring him fishing. Isaac had been returning from the stream where he found a bunch of minnows when Jessica had also returned from her little shopping escapade a few miles out to get some products. Dior senior, Jessica and Isaac had started to head toward the stream and asked if Dior Jr., the little two-year-old, would like to come along with them. About halfway to the

stream, Dior Jr. stopped and looked to his father and gave him a choice. The father said, you can come with us or you can head back to see the grandfather Bob because he had kids. A two-year-old? Yeah, the two-year-old. How far? What? They were just from the campsite to the creek. Again, keep in mind, the creek is with an eye shot of the campsite. You can see the campsite from the creek that they were at. It's a two-year-old, though. I agree on that part. I agree on that part. So they were halfway there. The kid was kind of complaining. The father turned around and said, do you want to come with us or do you want to go back with grandpa and go get some candy because the grandfather had brought candy. The kid decided candy was going to be the way to go and he went

back to the grandfather. The father did say, hey, can you watch? You got eyes on the kid? No problem. The boy did go back and for candy with the grandfather. So that's important. More importantly, the grandfather, the kid did make it back to the camp. He didn't go missing during the walk back. He actually did get to get back to the camp. So he decided to go back. The father, Jessica and Isaac, continued walking toward the creek and they all returned to the campsite to get their fishing gear once they brought and when they found Dion Kudz Jr. had gone completely missing. So they walked to the creek. Isaac showed them where he was fishing. They walked back to get their fishing gear and when they had gotten back, the kid was gone. Just gone. The grandfather was

still there, but the kid was gone. This is all in about 10 or so minutes. And Bob, being the grandfather, hadn't moved from his chair in that entire time. He was sitting right where he was when they walked away to go fishing, to look at the fishing spot. When asked what happened to the kid, he just sort of shrugged and said he'd been playing by that tree not only 10 minutes ago with his hot wheels. Again, the... It's a two-year-old kid. I know. I know. The tree, it was within eyesight of the chair. It wasn't super far away. It wasn't like a mile away, but again, like you said, two-year-old boy sitting next to the tree playing with hot wheels. The grandfather was keeping an eye on him, I suppose. That's not even like a five-year-old boy. Like a two-year-old

boy. That's like a baby. That's like a... That's not a person. Also, grandparents are notoriously terrible at keeping an eye on kids. Hands down, the worst. Is that a thing? Oh my god. Yes, because they... Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And if you look, all of them are old. All of them have bad faculties compared to when they were young. Their memories are worse. Yeah, I guess that's true. I mean, I guess that makes sense. I was watched a lot by my grandparents as a kid, so I guess I'm just like, whatever. In the house, never on a camping site. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like out in the wild, there's a lot of factors here that are just too much. This is too much. Sure, sure, sure. It's also super important to note, not that it really matters all that much and I don't think it

really holds, but I think it plays into the idea that the grandfather wasn't very good at being a babysitter. During the interviews that I heard from him and what I read, the grandfather didn't give two shits about the kid. That's what I'm saying. He never used the kid's name. He often just called him the kid or that kid. When they were actually interviewing and asking them questions about whether what happened to the kid, he would chuckle. He would chuckle and laugh all the time and say, I don't know. He's a two-year-old. I didn't do anything. How old is this grandpa? He's dead now. He died in January, but he was, I think, in his 80s somewhere around there. So he's this guy's kid's 140th my age. He doesn't matter yet. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, he's just a little

sack of meat. I mean, I don't know. I don't know what. It seems heartless. It does. Well, that's what's interesting is listening to him interviewed. He does seem like he gives Jack Squat. He doesn't give two shits about the kid, but he's dead now. I don't want to speak to their family dynamic. Yeah, of course. These people are still alive. They might listen to this. I have no idea. Sure. So following there afterward, the family immediately started to search the campground. They searched about 10 or 15 minutes before they decided to call the police. You can actually hear the 911 call between the mother and the 911 responder. During this time, Isaac is still by the creek and is still fishing. That's important. Isaac is the friend that was brought

along. He's not related to any of them. He's just the friend of the grandfather's. Uncle Isaac, basically. Not even in that. The parents said they didn't even know Isaac through a hole in the wall. Grandpa just really wanted to bring him along. Oh, okay. So the grandpa doesn't care all that much. Brought a weird creepy friend along. Yeah, this is going to work out great. Yeah. See, a little suspicious, right? So he's during the whole search that Isaac is just fishing while the family is searching for the kid. He's not there. He's just at the creek fishing. He's there at the campsite, but he's not like helping. He's just fishing while everybody's freaking out about the kid. Interesting. Very strange. Very, very strange. Interesting. Since in the middle

of nowhere, Jessica jumped into the truck and drove as fast as she could in the town to call the police because she didn't have a very good signal. And the dad stayed behind to try and keep searching for Isaac who returned and searching for Isaac, who eventually showed up, and presumably Bob. So Isaac did start searching eventually. Well, the father went and got the kid. When they went to go call 911, the father was like, Isaac, come on, we need to fucking do something. That kind of thing. Okay. Yeah. Police got there very soon after and swept the entire area. And even after a search and rescue team got out there, they couldn't find the kid, and he still remains missing to this day. In the light of all of this, the family then hired a

private investigator who immediately implicates literally everyone in a conspiracy theory with little to no evidence. He joins Lador's community in thinking it was the parents who killed the kid, even though Isaac was right there. He actually implicates everyone at some point during his investigation, blaming pretty much everybody, saying that Jessica knows where the body is, and that senior had been the one to actually kill Junior, and then Isaac helped with the body disposal. He's implicated everyone except for Bob, which is odd and ties into one of my researchers, specifically his personal theories. He was also fired and left the case in 2017. The parents actually let go of the private investigator, asking the DA to arrest the parents

with child endangerment at the very least. The most public evidence that we could find for this PI and why he wants the parent to be arrested for child endangerment. Because it was a two-year-old and it's insane. He pretty much boils down to bringing the kid to a campground with water nearby and having the grandfather being negligent with the child, even though he didn't actually pin anything on the child itself. Alex, how you doing? That just seems so crazy. Which part? The whole thing? That just is such an unbelievable thing to say. You shouldn't bring your two-year-old to the forest because that's how it dies. You know what I mean? That doesn't seem like a child endangerment case to me. You should be able to take your kid wherever. I mean, maybe not like inside of

a poison room or something like that, but like, I don't think, I think it's reasonable to assume that somebody can take care of their kid. Well, I think the endangerment comes from the fact that it is reasonable to assume that that can happen, but these people did not do that. And that he's saying you endanger your kid. Not that the idea of taking a two-year-old to the wilderness is bad, but that these people shouldn't have taken their two-year-old because they were negligent. But why didn't the law enforcement do that? Because it's hard to, you know, it's hard to just say that. Right? That's why this guy's trying, but it clearly isn't happening. But he's like, hey, they were negligent. What they did was wrong is what he's trying to say.

I think I have a theory. I guess in that way of thinking, I maybe agree with him, but I'm thinking in my head what I think happens, but I want to hear what the researchers thought first. We'll go through some theories here in a second. The other important thing to know is that search and rescue and all that showed up very, very quickly within that day, and they were insanely detailed with their search. They were on their hands and knees in the creek nearby, prying every rock. They had chainsaws cutting down all the trees that were in their way. They absolutely went ham on that area, the creek where he may have drowned or fallen, the little slopes nearby, the thin line of trees that led into a forest off on the other side.

They covered everything and could find nothing, and that boy still remains missing to this day. No clothing, no evidence of tracks, no scent, absolutely nothing could be found of where this boy just kind of vanished into thin air, completely gone. But there's a bunch of theories as to what actually ended up happening to the kid. A lot of them, however, really focus around the family itself, and I think a lot of it focuses around the family itself because people like answers, and this very much reminds me of who is that woman in the 90s who ended up killing her kid but lied about it? Casey Anthony. It reminds me a lot of Casey Anthony, where the family seems to be helping the police force often, but eventually leads to nothing. The first theory obviously is

the most obvious, I think, is that the kid walked off to the woods and ended up drowning, fell in the creek and ended up drowning, and if there was a natural explanation as to what ended up happening, this is likely the most reasonable if you're looking at non-dirty play from family and or Isaac the friend. The sense the creek was literally right there within walking distance, as I said, of the camp. It wouldn't have taken much for a two-year-old to trip, fall, smack his head, and get carried off by a creek off into the wilderness to never, for his body to not be found, or, you know, knock it that far and then animals find him and have their way. Maya, could you, thank you. Good lord. Sorry, my cat is...

You have to do some cat discipline. Yeah, cat discipline. Good luck. Yeah, you're a bad cat, that's all I have to do. But again, the reason that I don't put too much weight into this particular explanation is the search and rescue team went ham on that creek all over, like they went up and down it, they couldn't find it. The other theory, as far as the law enforcement put forth, the parents murdered the kid. Now, for my, one of my, from the researcher, he doesn't put too much weight into this. I personally, after having done even more digging, this is the theory I fall behind the most, and I'll talk about why. The kids don't, they say, a lot of the people who kind of dismiss this theory, they say that the parents didn't have a motive, they didn't get any hint of malice from

the father and mother, they were in a bit, they were in a ton of debt, and they were nowhere close to being rich, but they couldn't, but they still went on a camping vacation, this would be the opportune time to get rid of something that might be causing them a lot of debt, aka the child. Moreover, the mother was actually already a mother of two from a previous marriage, and she lost the custody battle for those kids. When she had her third kid, this one, the junior boy, she had her tubes tied, and it had been noted that she never wanted kids in the first place, her family specifically saying that she had never wanted kids. Interesting.

So there is an established motive. There is an established motive, absolutely, in my opinion, there's absolutely a motive. Again, this is all circumstantial, and in my personal opinion, this is no, I'm not out here trying to say this is definitely what happened, it's just what I think has happened. On top of that, their stories changed over the course of years, over 19 times. 19 times the parents' stories have changed, even though they've worked with the FBI and all this other stuff, their stories never say the thing. Changed like the sequence of events changed or changed?

Sequences of events, things that have happened. One of the things that the changes, they went to the gas station, and they got their gas, you know, when she went to go get feminine hygiene products, she also got the gas filled, and then that particular story, sometimes she got her gas filled, sometimes she never got her gas filled, sometimes she got her gas filled, but somebody filled it for her. It's consistently changing. Her stories never fully line up. On top of that, one of the private investigators hired by extended family, who felt a little suspicious about it, interviewed her many, many times and claims that during those interviews, and this is all still in court, keep in mind, which is why we don't have any definitive answers,

that she had broken down into tears and claimed that she knew where the body was, but every time she got to that point, she never finished her story. She said she knew where the body was? Supposedly, yes. Again, we don't have the transcripts of that. This is all still on her investigation. This is just coming from one of the investigators who interviewed her many times. That she broke down into tears and claimed that she knew where the body was. A PI, a PI, which is also important to note. The parents eventually divorced and the parents began to blame one another

for the kid going missing, the mother specifically blaming the father, saying the father's one that killed him. It's tough. Again, it's kind of in a chaotic place at this moment, but the other big part of that is that they've taken many, many, many, many polygraph tests and they can't even pass the simplest of questions beyond what their names are. Everything else is a definitive failure. Even the simplest of them have nothing to do with the crimes, they fail. Which doesn't necessarily prove anything about the facts, but does definitely make you suspicious. Absolutely. Then there are the theories that Bob or a combination of Bob and Isaac killed the kid.

That Isaac and Bob, while the parents were off fishing and whatnot, that Bob took the kid away and either drowned him in the creek and buried the body or took him away and killed him and disposed of the body very quickly, which is strange. Some people really put some weight into this one. I don't know if I necessarily do, but in all of Isaac's interviews, which is the friend, he's very strange. One of the interviews that's caught on camera, the news guy goes up to his house multiple times every single day and eventually he opens the door and he tries to answer some of the questions, but they're always like non-answers. There are a lot of just leading you to a circular logic that never really truly leads anywhere. He talks about the likelihood of them being,

the parents being the killer or the grandfather being the killer and he always denies it. The reason I personally don't put too much weight in the grandfather being the killer or Isaac being the killer is because so much pressure by the police and the FBI were put onto Isaac, I feel like he might have cracked at that point. I feel like since he wasn't related to the family in any way, he wasn't friends with them, why would he not just throw them under the bus? Why wouldn't he just admit that the grandfather killed him or that they're trying to pass it off, but he's held steady the entire time saying that it wasn't him and it wasn't the grandfather, he had nothing to do with it. So what convinces our research team that Bob is the guy?

Well, I think for him, he says that he had the motive and the means. He was old for sure, but the kid would have followed him towards the creek, bend where the campground was at. Bob also until the very end was sane, he wasn't crazy, and could probably have thrown Dior into the creek and whatnot. In all of Isaac's interviews, he seems, you know, he does seem like he kind of knows something or he's at least being suspicious in the way he answers. He can't seem to tell people about what happened or he's very vague. Like I said, he has that very circular logic thing going on where he doesn't really answer the question. He doesn't think that Isaac's the one that killed the kid because he was with the parents back and forth showing him the fishing hole and stuff,

but they were down at the creek for enough time for Bob to have killed the kid and put the body in the creek, so maybe a conspiracy to keep the parents at the fishing hole long enough for the grandfather to kill the kid. We don't really know the nature of the friendship between Isaac and Bob either. That's never really made clear. My research is a theory that maybe Bob would kind of like was a kind heart reaching out to Isaac in a tough time, but we don't really know for sure, and beyond that one trip, it doesn't seem like the parents and Isaac have ever kept in touch. Bob did actually do an interview, but he was never on camera during the interview, it was just vocal recordings and he just laughed and never seemed to take the whole case seriously,

and then he died sometime in January. Okay, well before we get into Crazy Town, let me level the theory that, you know, like we're talking about who did the murder, was it the parents or Bob? Yeah. I think, you know, it's possible this technically was a murder, but I think like also like, you know, if it's true the things that we're saying, if we're saying like, you know, these parents have financial issues and they're not, they don't really have their lives together. And again, this kid is like two years old, and we were talking about this earlier that like maybe because it's an old person and a two year old died that maybe they have no relationship with them as a person, maybe it's like talking about like a dead dog or something

like that where it's a little bit less personal, you know, it's possible then also that maybe there was a wrongful death, an accidental death of the kid, somehow, be it negligent or, you know, abuse or something like that. And then, you know, you get like sort of like a packed formed and, you know, maybe disposing of the body because they don't want to get in trouble for maybe losing their kid, especially if they lost the custody battle for their other kid, like this probably isn't going to reflect well on them. And then, you know, maybe they just do the work to cover up the accident or the murder without it being a situation where there needs to be a motive other than that they maybe destroyed the body or hid the body. What also leads me to believe

that that's possibly what happened too is initially the, I can't judge anybody, everybody grieves differently, right? So I can't pass judgment on that on that. But the parents avoided media almost entirely. They had one interview in the first three months of the boy being missing and then avoided media entirely. Moreover, the private investigator that they hired, the parents hired initially, was urging them to just go on TV to get the name of the kid out there everywhere across as far as they could. He put the kids on everybody's mind and they outright refused to the point where they actually ended up firing their first private investigator because he was pushing them to try and get on TV and they didn't want to do it. Then, while watching, and you can go watch this,

the 401 documentary, one of the mother's really good friends is being interviewed and they get word that it's happening and she gets a call in the middle of the interview and is getting texted by the mother asking her, what the hell are you doing? Why are you doing this? And then the father shows up mid-interview. She has to get up, go to the garage, you can hear him having a conversation just off camera and that the mother of the kid doesn't want them to be doing this interview and yet to the point where she's texting calling mid-interview and the father comes over to be like, hey, what's going on? Why is this happening? Oh, it's fine. Don't worry about it. I'll convince my wife. It's fine that we're doing this. You know how she gets. She gets very stressed, that kind of

thing. Very, very weird activity once the parents get word that they're doing a documentary interview that one of her friends is doing a documentary interview. That to me makes it seem like maybe they didn't like conspire to off their kid, but once the damage was done, maybe they chose to be like, you know, this actually makes her life easier. Yeah, it's possible. It's very possible. I don't know, man. It's definitely, definitely bizarre. She threw away all of his toys afterward, afterward, after the whole thing too. She kept no memorabilia of her child. Very much feels like she cleaned her hands of having a kid after all of a sudden. Yeah, if your child's taken from you, the logical thing that people do is they like, you see this often and you can just watch countless

movies also to get examples of this. They'll like seal off that room and it'll be like the child was still there or it was, or they will like, yeah, the like time, like timestamp it. Like, it's perpetually, the child is a three year old forever. Yes. Like that kind of thing. To clean it away, to wipe it away is completely the wrong reaction given all the other examples of this happening in the past. Like it's definitely very suspicious. If I was a cop, I'd be like, mm-mm, something's up. And then little things too, like during that, during that thing when they're showing her, like looking at her, at her son's clothing and stuff, she couldn't even fully remember like her son's shoe size. She was like, he was like a five or a six, maybe a six and a

half. Like, I don't know, little things like that. I feel like personally, I would remember like crystal clear, but that's beside the point. My personal, my personal theory is like, if I was to put weight into any realistic theory, I definitely would put more weight into, into the parents or probably likely the ones. Sure. So yeah, we're going to go into some theories. And I can't believe we've already been going for over an hour. So what I'm going to do, because I have paged this shit, what we're going to do, we're going to go over some general theories of what people believe happened here. And then next episode, next time we record, I think we're going to do a part two right after this, because after these theories, I have the ones that are weirder and

the more bizarre stuff. Yeah. But I wanted to cover like some general. Yeah. Maybe instead of doing the introduction to what missing 401 is next time, we'll talk more about, we'll just go right into the, into the, into the weird shit. Okay. So during all of this, there's a lot of obviously research into what's going on by, by David Poliz, the author and stuff. And in other cases that, that weren't thoroughly researched by, by my researcher and ones that I didn't really look into, along with both Sammy and the Dior, Kun's Jr. cases, all these appearances, every single one of them happen near or around military bases. Every one of them. It's without fail, within miles. All the ones that we're going to look at. Everyone. Crater Lakes is literally 50 miles away

from the USA Air Force place, along with a supposed but nowhere near confirmed underground secret base for the CIA FBI. If you want to get into conspiracy theories about that. How, how supposed it is this? Nowhere, nowhere near confirmed. Like not area 51. No, not, not area 51 kind of confirmed in that. Unconfirmed, but highly suspected, I guess. Okay. Lador for Dior's Kun's Jr., which is the town that they came from, is just down the road from a Navy command center. We, which is weird because it's inland. I don't know how the Navy works, but a Navy command center in the middle of Oregon seems a little strange, or Idaho.

Idaho, yeah, Oregon is like a coastal state. I meant, I meant Idaho. It's either in Idaho, and is nearby a US National Guards Armory. Inside Timber Creek's Falls, and within eight miles of where the family was staying, is a supposive, supposed secret military base at Green River Falls. Again, no confirmation. We can't really, it's just people believe that that's possibly conspiracy theorists or like reporters. Well, you got to keep in mind conspiracy theorists, but area 51 was also conspiracy theorists until it was revealed. Right. But I mean, at area 51, you can like drive up and- Now you can, yeah, yeah, yeah. But for this specific thing, no, there's no road that leads there or anything that you can drive up to. Dior is actually not the

only one that disappeared near Timber Creek's either, but the names and images that we found were unreadable, like the clippings of the newspapers were just old and blurry, and we didn't find anything real great. But he's not the only one that went missing in that area. A few of the ones that we saw inside of Wisconsin were incredibly close to a few different military bases. One of them lived a few miles away from Fort McCoy and went to La Crosse on the Mississippi River, somehow got into the river and was found several miles downstream fighting the current. Luckily, he lived, but he has no memory of how he got in there and was proven to be sober when they found him. So he just like got washed away in the river? Yeah, and he has no memory of how he got in the

river and he was fighting upstream. Whoa. And he was sober when they found him and tested him. If you look at the cluster maps, that's the map I showed you a little earlier, which again, look up cluster maps for missing 4-1 on Google Images, guys, and you'll see what I'm talking about. But if you look at the cluster maps of all these supposedly connected disappearances, you can find that they all connect through major highways and around military bases that we know of. Two things to disprove that this though, these clusters seem to be centered around cities of areas of high population density, which of course kind of makes sense for lots of people to go missing in areas that are near cities because there's just a higher percentage of people there.

There is one notable exception and that's Las Vegas. Las Vegas and most of Nevada are totally blank on this heat map. There is no disappearances around there. My researcher specifically said he couldn't get his head wrapped around why there wouldn't be anyone going missing there and that fit the criteria of what we're talking about. Hell, both Dulce and Area 51 are nearby and it's in Las Vegas and yet Las Vegas seems to be immune to these particular types of disappearances. I wonder if it's just the nature of the environment, like because it's like really discouraging desert, I bet you there's not a lot of like family vacations out to you know fucking hot ass places. You wouldn't bring a kid out there. Yeah, I guess that's yeah, that's

that makes sense. The clusters in the maps also line up, we're gonna get into some deep conspiracy stuff here and we've talked a little bit about it before so be ready. This cluster map also lined up nearly perfectly with one of the many maps of the supposed deep underground military bases map. Like in Arizona, the three names are all within a few miles of a supposed secret military base. Now we talked about this, I think we talked about during one of the alien episodes, the idea that there are military bases underground all throughout the United States connected by tram systems that that uh you know operatives of the CIA and the FBI or whoever's operating MS-13 or whatever go back and forth to and all where we belong. MS-13?

Oh wait, that's not what I'm talking about. Damn, they are sophisticated. They are using tunnel systems to get to our country. I meant the majestic 12. Majestic 12. But the these disappearances are happening in areas where we believe the secret military bases that we that are on these conspiracy you know these conspiracy buffs place all are happening within the same areas. So if this is what's happening, if the military is plucking people for their own reasons or what have you and then you know doing what they do and then you know disposing of the corpse or what not later on, what's the reason? Why are they being taken? What does the government see in these in these people to take them away? Maybe it's a weird

eugenics program is one of the theories. Like we said earlier, this is mostly disabled kids and elderly folk, so maybe it's a process of them secretly weeding out while they're closed. Listen, we're talking conspiracies, alright? Weeding out the weak folk and experimenting on them. Yeah, taking them out, picking them off in the wilderness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Turning them gay with the frog chemicals. But they also could just be doing tests on them as well. Maybe they're not weeding them out because they're weaker and the government wants to rid their country of them, but maybe they're just taking these kids away and experimenting on them because they're

what some people call the lesser dead, which is the idea of people being killed, whether it be via serial killers or even government or what not, of people who wouldn't necessarily be cared about as much as like a successful 30-year-old white male would, that kind of thing. So maybe the government is scooping them up and doing medical tests on them and then the government has been known to do tests before on people that come out. We've talked about the government tests that people were doing before. What's the name of that project that we discussed? Which one? Fuck, it's out in the open now. What was that? The Men Who Stare Goats? MKUltra? MKUltra, that's it. I mean MKUltra is the thing that actually happened and for a while

people didn't believe it was a thing, but no, it was an actual thing. The government was taking people and putting them through tests and and drugging them and doing all kinds of things. Trying to see if they have psychic powers. Yeah, it was like the 50s and 60s. Right, but some of these... But no, but that... Who wasn't on LSD is what I'm saying. Oh, okay. I was like, what does that mean? I was like, well, people have been going missing in the 50s and 60s, you know, for missing 401 things. I mean, it's a possibility. It's not out of the realm of possibility. It's not likely, but it's certainly not impossible. Then, of course, we get to the aliens theories. The idea that that we're either being hunted or abducted. It could

make sense, especially since a lot of the cases that we found are from 1990 and onward, where aliens got mainstreamed and they couldn't be, you know, blasé about it like the government was prior to that. These two missing persons cases specifically happened around that time. If we want to talk about aliens in general, the grays are the ones that typically abduct people who are star-seeded or two-star-seed someone, meaning they're working on hybrids or these children, already hybrid children, that the aliens are just taking back. Maybe they abducted these people, forced them, you know, kind of star-seeded them with a child. And once the child was of a certain age, they came and scooped the kid up and took the kid for their own experiments. So it was a long con to get the kid

out into the wilderness to then steal the kid? Maybe they got you to decide to go on vacation, baby, and then it's big bang bomb. Maybe these people are regularly camping folk, and they got abducted while they were camping and got star-seeded. Then two years down the line, they go camping with the kid, that was star-seeded into the baby, and they come back, take what they believe they claim is theirs, and they move on. Bring the loud crow recording to play. Yes, scare the kid, you know, make him run up a hill, abduct him really quickly. He's the robotic panther to take him down. Robotic mountain lion, right? We're not in panther territory, we're in mountain lion panther. I know. Yeah, so they come back, and they see how their generations

of hybrids are doing. Are they integrating into humanity well? Are they, maybe these are like defunct star-seeded children, so they scoop them up to experiment. Defunct space kids! Come on now! We don't want those. Those are the defunct space kids. Have you seen 2001, a space odyssey? That is a perfect space baby. Get out of town. Yeah, I'm just saying that's a baby in space, that's all I'm saying. That's a star shot. Yeah, same word, star. Defunct space kids. Defunct space children. There also has been talking, I know I've talked about this a lot, that of the U.S. Gray Treaty of 1954, could be, don't laugh! How do they nail it down to a specific year? Well, that's when the treaty took place, that's when the grays, so 1954, right after Roswell

and Amy Todd. They met at the Walder Fistoria Hotel. Well, have you guys not seen Men in Black? In the gray room? Listen, the U.S. Gray Treaty, U.S. Alien Treaty of 1954, could have been altered in some way, and it could have added a clause that the U.S. government must take these people so that the aliens have plausible deniability. Like a board game? Well, the idea is that, you know, so the aliens are doing their thing, they're abducting, but they need to make sure that they're not just, you know, it's a whole misinformation campaign. So in the treaty, for whatever the treaty says, the aliens have to abduct, but now the U.S. now has to abduct some of their own so that the scent is thrown off the alien trail.

So the government's like, let's go for some disabled kids in the woods? Yeah, man, absolutely. It would explain why the few that have been recovered have no memory, and often seeming to be shielded from the elements, meaning they haven't, you know, doesn't look like they're weather worn or their clothes have been ripped apart, because they were scooped up by some being, whether it be alien or otherwise. I'm just picturing that scene where data goes haywire in the Star Trek movie with the Fountain of Youth, where like they're studying the, there's like a secret base that looks like a mountainside. Well, okay, I mean, that's not necessarily, you know, I like that image. I don't think I've ever

seen it, but there's the other clause. Well, maybe instead of throwing them off their scent, maybe the clause was that the grays, you know, traded their ability under the new treaty. They probably gave up their ability to just take anyone for being able to keep the victims that they caught. The government's like, we'll give you who we want you to get rid of? Well, initially the treaty said you could scoop people up X number of people a year, but they have to be returned after and they can't be killed. What if that treaty had been altered in some way, but the alteration, whether it be because they can only take old people or young kids or people with disabilities or what have you, but in exchange for only being able to take those kinds of people,

they get to keep what they catch instead of catch and release, like you do with fish. Yeah. If this was, if this was all real, that makes some fucked up kind of sense. I just, all right, time out, time out, time out. Oh God, here we go. So I looked up this treaty with the grays. And that's, I mean, that's, let's say that for another day. What I learned from this entire thing is that Americans are not the first people to make contact with the grays. Y'all, what, what I learned is the grays made formal contact for the first time with the world government in 1933 in Germany. However, they were turned away by the German government because the German government had already committed itself to involvement with

the Giza intelligence. These of course, being human extraterrestrials who were headquartered in Giza in Egypt. So there you go. Uh, the, yeah, the grays then had to go talk to America because Germany would not take them. And, and then, then, then that's the reason we kept winning wars, because we had the better aliens. Keep in mind, just keep in mind. These are extraterrestrials who traveled from another world, came here and Germany was like, nine, get out of here, and then, and then they were like, all right, fine, bye, and left. And that's when they ran into Zephrim Cochran. None of it. Oh, it, it, I just want, like, why can't they make the extraterrestrial stuff at least make sense, right? At least make sense. But what, but what if Jesse, but what

is, you're telling me aliens, what's the Germans were like, Hey, we want to be friends, German's like, no, but don't be friends. And the owners were like, okay, we'll wait 10 years and then go talk to the Americans. No, that makes sense. You never know. But what, what, what if, what if it could have been that they're like, Oh, you know, that's, but we've already got an alliance with these extraterrestrials and the grays and those extraterrestrials don't get along, but there's also the treaty in space that they can't act and act war on a primitive planet. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. It's not possible. It's not possible. Mathis, you can't cover up your laughter. You know, it's dumb. You know, that's dumb as hell.

You know, that's so stupid. You know, this is incredibly dumb. Stop. No, I believe it. You can't look, you can't believe in aliens. You can't believe that they would travel here, get turned down by some dudes and be like, well, because the treaty that just is convenient that we can't attack you, we won't attack you because we just because if they break the treaty, they're breaking. Yeah. Because if they exactly exoplanetary politics, this is treaties that are going to be outheld in galactic court, I guess, quote unquote, you know, that's, that's my term, not their term. But the idea that they are, they are, they are, they are, they, if they've got a treaty, they can't cross that tree because it's going to incur them honestly. It's very diplomatic. I don't

exactly. Whatever. Okay. It's the convenient. You can't ever win in these because the convenience of like, well, you don't get it. There's a space treaty and you don't have to be a part of it, man. Like you can't argue with that. You just can't. You just can't. It goes, it goes too deep for one person to comprehend. What better, what better excuse than just to put the truth out there? But it sounds so insane that you'd never believe it. I don't believe it. You're absolutely right. I don't, I can't, whatever. I'm just going to let you keep going. I'm interrupting the topic with my rage. No, this is literally the topic because we're talking about the theories. This is the theories. Like, so that's, that's a theory, obviously. Now, if you ask me, an alien man,

an alien buff, I don't necessarily believe that the idea is a clause was added to their treaty. Star child. You asked me. Star child. I am a star seeded child. My mom was abducted when I was young. The point being, like, I wouldn't necessarily, I don't necessarily fully dismiss the fact that if there is an agreement between whatever extraterrestrials in planet earth that they're allowed to abduct X number of people per year, that they would, they would actually target older, younger or disabled folk because those are the, like, we call the lesser dead. Those are the folks that would be... The lesser you call them, the lesser dead? No, that's an actual term that is used. The lesser dead. By who? Because they're not legally, because they're not officially

found dead. They're just like nobody... The lesser dead, it goes back to, it's used in serial killer, it's used in serial killer cases a lot where a serial killer, for instance, in the 80s or the 90s, targets young female black prostitutes. And since they're female and black and prostitutes, the law enforcement puts way less energy and way less resources in trying to figure out who killed them because who gives a shit. That's the idea. That's what lesser dead means. Oh my god. The government doesn't necessarily care all that much. That's, that's actual fact. I believe that. I know someone said that in the past. Yeah, 100%. And then, so that's the idea that these might fall into that category for the government.

It also gives the grades of a ton of people to experiment on. The other thing is if you go back to the heat map, five people have gone missing around Dulce, New Mexico, I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but Dulce, Dulce, New Mexico, which needs Dulce, which needs to be its own episode, which I agree, but it's supposedly the area that they moved all the Area 51 shit to once they opened up Area 51 and like announced that it was public. So all the alien shit that was at Area 51, they moved somewhere else. And that, I know it sounds insane and I know it sounds stupid, but when we cover Area 51 after, you know, however long, there is actually evidence that shit was moved from Area 51 to somewhere in New Mexico,

but we just don't know where it is. It's somewhere over there. Like it's a base over there that has whatever was in Area 51 and originally it is now there. It always comes back to the fucking aliens. Well, Area 51 is the whole time where the aliens made it theirself, you know, they became a present in our consciousness, right, where we started to have sightings and whatnot. It was after the Roswell crash and all that stuff. Either the biggest joke in American history or literally one of the biggest watershed moments in like human alien relations. That area as well to go back to the treaty and stuff is also supposedly potentially where the embassy of all 12 alien races that are working with humanity on earth to this day are and there's an area there

aside for grace to do their tests on humans to do with obviously the permission of the government. The same setups as in the flying saucers? Yeah, so like you get abducted and you get brought there to get experimented on. I feel it. I'm just saying. I'm just saying. So where does that leave us with where we're going to go in the future with missing 411? Well, we don't really know what's going on here though. There are these two cases I like to think that we have a good idea, but what we do know is that the US government refuses to make a list of missing people, which is a fact, which is weird because all other agencies have a list that you can look up who is missing and who has died on their land except Park Service. Like what other agencies? Well, just other areas where

people go missing. So we're specifically talking about national parks and stuff in the park services and national area, but cities and towns and all this other stuff. There's you can get lists and information right on these people going missing. I understand. But in these areas, they don't have a list. If they have a file on the person, it's random whether you're going to be able to get it or not. And the details that they have of that particular missing person is either no detail at all, even when there's done a ton of research or a ton of detail. And it seems like a lot of care was put into it. There's no, there's no consistency is what I'm looking for in the records at the National Park Service. It's just a bunch of mess. You have to do it yourself, basically.

Yep. And at the end of the of the documentary, when all is said and done, the people who made the documentary requested a list of all missing peoples from the parks. And they were told that no such list exists and to make one would cost about $1.4 million, which reads like, yeah, which reads like a slap in the fucking face, because why wouldn't you just invest that money to get a list of missing people? Wouldn't it just take like an intern like a month to do it? They also denied every single request for an interview, every single request for any of the files that they could get their hands on about the cases from the missing 411 stuff. It's insane. It's insane. And the last bit is the little bit about David Poliz is the reason he even started doing this

is because he was approached by somebody in the National Park Services. He had an interview with them that he reached out to in this particular National Park, which he leaves his name out and all the stuff for anonymity's sake, whether so that obviously only leaves us with the word of David that that has actually happened, but approached them and said there's these missing people's cases happening in our parks that are not being investigated. The government doesn't seem to give a shit about. And anytime I try to ask about that or put any resources into, they shut me down. And he knew David Poliz because of his history, his previous work about the big foot stuff, obviously, and David went ham on it. And once he started seeing the different cases,

he actually got approached by people within the government saying you shouldn't be doing this, like stop, stop researching these people, let it go. It's you're never going to find an answer and you're never going to get the information you're looking for, we're not going to give it to you. I don't know if it's like a not my jurisdiction type of thing, or if it's like a weird it's hard to know. But I think I have to stop myself here. I've got like another six pages, but we're going to we'll do that next. There's plenty. We can always do another one. There's always there's plenty of people missing that we can get into their stories. We'll call this the intro and the realistic cases. And then the next one is going to be the stuff that I'm hoping fingers crossed

is going to make Jesse not necessarily lose his shit, but the goal is to make Jesse walk away unconvinced. Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for something to blow my mind. I genuinely did not think we were going to go be going for an hour and a half on just these two cases and the intro. I thought we'd be done in like 45 minutes, but it went way longer than I was expecting. But we will in part two specifically talk about the cases that I've handpicked that are bizarre. And in my opinion, just impossible to put an explanation to. I can't wait. Okay. I'm so, so fucking okay. But in the meantime, if you the listener want to go do some research, there's the the the documentary you can watch on on Amazon Prime for like four bucks. If you

want to rent it, there's a ton of books out there. There's a ton, a ton of just public Reddit stuff and forms of people just dissecting this stuff, ripping apart, you know, David for if he's even reliable or not, ripping apart the cases. There's just so much stuff to consume out there about missing 411 that you it's even if you don't fully believe that something bizarre is happening out there, it's still fascinating to read how the government seems to be poorly handling these missing people's cases. And the very least poorly recording who who's missing, how long they've been missing and just figuring like steps that they should be taking that they clearly are not. And also I had an idea about that type of like like further research just in general,

not just for this case, but for all our episodes. If somebody wants to like do further research, it might be good to go to the Chilluminati subreddit and do like a do like a post watch thread for each episode. That'd be awesome. Yeah, go for it. Yeah. Whenever whenever a new episode goes up, like maybe somebody in there, if you feel like you want to do that, you know, obviously not everybody can be on our official research team. But if you guys want to go deep and look, you know, that's a great place to start for like minded people who maybe want to collaborate. Yeah, absolutely. This is some good stuff there. A lot of the information I even got for more research into the Dior kid specifically came from just a lot of people putting their

heads together, digging for articles and all kinds of stuff that I wouldn't have you wouldn't have found easily without the group of people doing a ton of research for it. So there's a lot of resources out there, especially for this particular topic. It's fascinating. It had me hooked for two weeks and I'm eager to talk about the weirder stuff that's happening out there. So it seems it seems it seems like a good mind that's not I've not heard most of this stuff. So I'm excited. Yeah, there's some good stuff out there. But thank you guys for listening. I guess we'll wrap up here. We will be back sooner rather than later with the next episode of Chilluminati missing for one part two. We talked about specifically just some cases. Thank you,

gentlemen, Alex and Jesse for joining me. Oh, yeah. Yeah, my pleasure. Sorry if I rambled a lot there, but it's just a lot to get you the host. It's okay. That's what you're supposed to do. I guess, I guess. But if you guys want to chat with us specifically, like Alex said, the subreddit is the best place to go. There's been a bunch of new posts up there. There's been some interesting posts. Somebody posted about their there. They died on like the emergency room table and what they saw after what they remember after they came back. Yeah, some cool stuff up there, man. Go check it out. The community is freaking great. If you listen to us on whatever app you store or whatever you listen to us, rate us, please rate us. It helps

us a huge amount. We are still just on the door of cracking 705 star reviews for iTunes. Please push us over that edge. It matters a lot to Apple for whatever reason. And obviously our Twitter is at chilluminati pod tweeted us all your fun stories. Did you guys see the little ghost video that someone showed us? I gave you the cat. Isn't that cool? Yeah, the cat. Yeah. Neat. Very convinced. I love it when people send me like little things. It looks like kind of fake, but at the same time it doesn't. I don't know. It's like too, it's too convincing for my brain to be like, Oh, that's not supposed to be a TV. He has a motion detection camera at his house. Yeah, I could see. So I was gone. It caught it caught. I'm very interested to see whether

that camera records to a tape or to digital. That would be interesting. I would very much like to know because here's the thing. If it records to a tape, there is a chance that it's a echo of a recent recording when the cat was alive because I was watching this a very famous video of a ghost at Disneyland that goes from camera to camera. If you watch on security and the way that they explain this in a debunking sense is that like the tape is there and it records the static image of the room or the angle hard coded in because you never move the camera. But you know, you'll see like relics of, you know, at Disneyland, like part guests walking through and if they have something particularly shiny on or they stand out particularly strongly from

from the background, you know, that can create ghost looking footage. That's that actually makes a lot of sense. Kind of like a screen burn. Yeah, exactly like a screen burn. But like on the tape, yeah. That's cool. Yeah, that definitely that would definitely explain it. But it certainly was a cool piece of piece of footage that people sent out. Yeah, I love getting footage. I less like getting paragraphs upon paragraphs of unintelligible nonsense. But I if you want to send me that do it. I don't mind. Send that to yeah, please. And if you got haunted dolls, please send them away. We're still waiting for the one to haunt us. Hasn't happened yet.

Did you take the tape off his mouth? Hell, no, absolutely not. I don't even care. I don't even care that that story is so fake. I won't do it. I'm not. Are you insane? I cherish my life. I don't want to do it. Guys, go to the yeti.com slash chilluminati to come get some good gear from us, t-shirts and hats and stuff like that. Please. Please do. We got some dope stuff up there. And if you want to tweet at us specifically, I'm at Mathis Games on Twitter. Alex is at at Fossiana A. And Jesse is at the at just Jesse Cox. That's me enough. And we will zoom this in. And that's it. That's it for us. Thank you for guys for listening. And we will see you next time. Bye. Father's Day is just around the corner. And what better way to show your appreciation

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